EPTI just don't feel compelled to watch games anymore, and it feels like there's something very important missing when I do.
I don't know, maybe I should just go make a nice dinner with some vintage wine and rose pedals for my SC2.
StarCraft 2: What's The Problem - Page 4
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Ettick
United States2434 Posts
I just don't feel compelled to watch games anymore, and it feels like there's something very important missing when I do. I don't know, maybe I should just go make a nice dinner with some vintage wine and rose pedals for my SC2. | ||
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maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
Don't get me wrong, I really like WCS, but to me it seems like Blizzard singlehandedly took over the competitive scene. Last year there were still plenty of MLGs and Dreamhacks to look forward to, but in 2013 it's been WCS Season 1 immediately followed by season 2, which was then followed by season 3 barely three weeks after the finals of the previous season. Also, I don't think the problem with the game is that it is personality-based. BW was like that as well: players were often liked for their play styles. The problem is that some matchups are just plain boring to watch. Personally I don't like watching PvX because it usually amounts to the Protoss player doing either an (immortal) all-in or building a deadball and steamrolling his opponent. The most interesting and dynamic matchups imo are TvZ and TvT. By dynamic I mean stuff happening all the time and mistakes can be punished hard. | ||
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RageCommodore
Germany912 Posts
Btw I dont mind SC2 shrinking at all. I don't like that Esports has turned into some kind of dick contest where "if ur game isnt growing it's actually dying" seems to be the catchphrase. I really enjoy BWs pretty small current scene for example, and I don't have any problem with LoL being the biggest Esport. The more of this threads surface, the more I get the feeling that some people take numbers way too serious - not talking about this post in general (which is a great one in most parts), but more about the other doom-and-gloom posts. | ||
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phiinix
United States1169 Posts
I myself as a more casual viewer now don't really feel like there's an over saturation of tournaments in the scene. If anything it feels like there are fewer tournaments now than there use to be. When MLG was around and growing, it seemed like everyone wanted to start a tournament or a circuit or what have you. Weekly tournaments, Monthly tournaments, random 1 time event in some part of the country, where in large numbers. WCS makes it feel like all the tournaments that exist are interconnected, and more "stable". I do agree that the smaller finals leading up to the big even all feel the same, however my fix would be to simply up the BoX. Playing a bo9 or introducing more maps is an easy way to make the final event stand out more. The point about community and emphasis on laddering is more of a bw-sc2 difference rather than a "why sc2 isn't as fun" difference. Most games you play online are geared towards getting you out there to play against other people. Adding large global chats seems like such an easy fix though and I do think it should be implemented. I suppose it's noteworthy to distinguish between the feel of a large community presence, and actually having a large community backing. IM programs and such make creating communities so easy, especially when combined with threads here for practice partners and such. I think at the end of the day, as passionate as anyone is about eSports, they must realize that the game is just that. A game. | ||
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murkk
Canada154 Posts
StarCraft 2 is too personality driven. There is no longevity here because a player's career is short lived A player's career could be very long if they were willing to put in the time. The current bottleneck requires full time obsession over years to actually be competitive long term. Requiring 15-18 year olds to spend 60 hours a week for 2-3 years is abusive in my opinion, but the current NA scene has enjoyed the image of being hardcore and believe it's acceptable. If there was more focus and emphasis placed on teams this problem would be alleviated. Team player is sort of pointless as it's not a team effort. It's like a relay event in the Olympics - fun to watch but not the main event. If Blizzard created a system that allowed 'local' talent to emerge this problem would be alleviated. Do you wonder why so many people watch the games but when it comes down to playing a game, the freeze at the loading screen. When you watch it, you don't have to deal with the horrible annoying mechanics that are in the game just to make it more difficult to play. Given the current state of awesome games on the market, where is to local talent going to emerge from? What's the problem: There is an oversaturation of content which removes the gravity of Blizzard's official championship series. The lack of a "superbowl" type event hurts. I think you're way off on the tourneys. Any game that is doing well would be growing regardless of the number of high profile tournaments or prize pool. There is no amateur tourney at my school. There is no amateur tourney in my City. There is no way to be competitive unless you're a top 50 player in the world, and that's just not going to happen. It's actually quite simple. In order for SC2 to grow the mechanics and gameplay need to improve to get more people playing. This creates more amateur tourneys and more potential viewers. This in turn creates a more robust semi-pro player base. Then you have more money for big events which drives more viewers giving you more recruits who are just starting to play and get hooked on the game. However, the vast majority of vocal people in the NA scene are absolutely polarized in making sure that these things stay the same or are more difficult / micro intensive. For Blizzard, it's cheaper and easier just to keep everything to same then change things, so just enjoy what's there and move on if you don't like it. | ||
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julianto
2292 Posts
It would also be great if the build-order emphasis was reduced. If you're a humble person, you might blame your loss on your mechanics. If you're not, you might blame it on build-order (he cheesed, etc). But both excuses, to some extent, are legitimate reasons for why players lose. To me, it is more fun spending time improving microing and positioning than worrying about 1up-ing your opponent with build orders. Half the time you'll lose on ladder. If you spent the majority of that time having fun, you'll keep playing. Some people play and have fun if they win. Those people will pull through. However, for the rest, the demands for macro mechanics and good build order is more like work. Starcraft, I guess, has always been about macro mechanics and build orders. That's why some people may be amazed by pro players. However, if these aspects of the game don't resonate with casuals or even semi-dedicated players, then we'll just see natural selection at work here. The game probably wasn't meant to be that big (if it does not change). *bronze-whatever depending on who you ask and how elitist they are. That's another problem that's driving away casuals. | ||
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Popkiller
3415 Posts
How much of a role did Blizzard play in making BW huge in Korea? How much of their time and money was dedicated to making BW an "eSports success" in Korea? How much time and money are they currently dedicating to making SC2 an eSports success? How big is their eSports team? How big is their WCS team? How much money are they spending, besides on the prize pool, on WCS? Now, considering that, pretend I'm Blizzard. Tell me, why should I devote more time and resources on making SC2 better for eSports? Give me some numbers. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
1) Some random posting why they thought SC2 was dying -- very pleased to see that I was wrong on this 2) Some garbage about sc2 dying without really touching on the key issues -- very pleased to see that I was, again, very wrong about this Excellent post Xeris. Hit all the nails on the head | ||
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Caladan
Germany1238 Posts
Although it may be too late for SC2 and Blizzard being the stuck and pure money-driven company it nowadays is. Maybe there will be a SC3 in 10-15 years from a better Blizzard. Thank you! | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On September 21 2013 07:41 Plexa wrote: Came into this thread expecting 1) Some random posting why they thought SC2 was dying -- very pleased to see that I was wrong on this 2) Some garbage about sc2 dying without really touching on the key issues -- very pleased to see that I was, again, very wrong about this Excellent post Xeris. Hit all the nails on the head The problem with this is it's nothing new and his solutions to the problem do not promote good methods of developing players (something from a guy who ran Light should sort of know by now). All he did was post a lengthy remark about several issues. As for his other thoughts on the U.I. That should have been done at the very start, sorry but you aren't going to get people coming back after the fact. Once you have people's attention you have to hold it and make them not look away. | ||
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Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
On September 21 2013 07:38 Popkiller wrote: I have questions for the OP (or anyone who can answer them): How much of a role did Blizzard play in making BW huge in Korea? How much of their time and money was dedicated to making BW an "eSports success" in Korea? How much time and money are they currently dedicating to making SC2 an eSports success? How big is their eSports team? How big is their WCS team? How much money are they spending, besides on the prize pool, on WCS? Now, considering that, pretend I'm Blizzard. Tell me, why should I devote more time and resources on making SC2 better for eSports? Give me some numbers. Thanks Plexa, btw. Blizzard didn't play a huge role as far as I know, they really started putting their hands in the pot as BW was getting really big, which is why you had quite a bit of dramam between them and KeSPA around 2008-2009 if I recall. With respect to your second group of questions, I don't have exact figures but I will say: - Blizzard pays the prize pool ($2 million roughly?) - Blizzard pays the entire travel cost for all regions and finals, which means they are paying for 16 flights for NA, EU, and KR. Multiply that by 4 ... and you get 192 flights. Thats over $200, 000 on flights. They are also paying for the venues for these events, which means they're paying NASL, ESL, Gom to host there, plus Gamescom, Toronto, and whatever.. probably about $500, 000 in venue costs, another in production... then there's accommodation (food, etc for players and personalities) and payments to all the casters including THEIR flights and you're looking at roughly $5 million would be my rough estimate. That's not even factoring in the cost of Blizzcon or the time/cost of their employees who are working on WCS. It is quite expensive. For your third question. There are ways to monetize eSports, especially for game developers like Blizzard. Riot and Valve have done a great job. While Riot may not directly profit from LCS yet, the extra value they get from decals, merch, skins, and champions over a year almost surely covers the cost of their eSports expense. Likewise for Valve. Blizzard can't quite do the same for SC but there are ways and some things they can copy.. like a compendium for example for the World Finals would be a grwat revenue tool. | ||
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Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
On September 21 2013 08:02 StarStruck wrote: The problem with this is it's nothing new and his solutions to the problem do not promote good methods of developing players (something from a guy who ran Light should sort of know by now). All he did was post a lengthy remark about several issues. As for his other thoughts on the U.I. That should have been done at the very start, sorry but you aren't going to get people coming back after the fact. Once you have people's attention you have to hold it and make them not look away. Promoting team rather than individual competition, localizing regions, and disallowing pro players from playing in non WCS events are three very specific ways I discussed for Blizzard to help develop players. I also explained the benefits. | ||
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mikkmagro
Malta1513 Posts
And team leagues cannot just be online leagues with offline finals...we never really got a full offline team event in the West for SC2...it's not that hard as most people say...all other eSport titles have teams sending 5 players to each event, why can't we have something like that a couple of times a year? It would also help if we had American team leagues, European team leagues etc...SC2's fixation on each and every event wanting to have all the best players was counter-productive...if you have a huge event with all the same huge names every weekend, it just becomes boring. It's not even about nurturing talent in NA/EU etc, it's about wanting events to be special. What was the point of having DH/MLG/IEM/IPL/NASL/Assembly etc all running the same type of league...honestly, with the frequency and excellent quality of WCS, I see all other individual events as useless except for DH because of the amazing production. Had MLG/IEM tried hosting a team league event, and tried diversifying by doing an online team league instead of doing same old, they would have been so much better off in terms of viewers imo. I love ATC, with its uniqueness, even if its mostly online, and match times are a bit inconsistent (at least last season was because of the Koreans), also because it is EU centric. I don't watch SC2L mostly because the time it is broadcasted is very inconvenient, but also because it is almost exactly the same teams as in ATC, but is casted from replays...I don't need two team leagues with the same teams participating. I'd rather have an American league, and an EU league, and then perhaps a grand slam event between the top two of each, for example...no reason for me to watch two tournaments with similar formats with the exact same names, run at the same time. Individual leagues would still be the most important tournaments, and they'd still be the tournaments determining the best players in the world, but organisers really need to look at what the audience would like to watch. /incoherent rant | ||
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Popkiller
3415 Posts
On September 21 2013 08:05 Xeris wrote: Thanks Plexa, btw. Blizzard didn't play a huge role as far as I know, they really started putting their hands in the pot as BW was getting really big, which is why you had quite a bit of dramam between them and KeSPA around 2008-2009 if I recall. With respect to your second group of questions, I don't have exact figures but I will say: - Blizzard pays the prize pool ($2 million roughly?) - Blizzard pays the entire travel cost for all regions and finals, which means they are paying for 16 flights for NA, EU, and KR. Multiply that by 4 ... and you get 192 flights. Thats over $200, 000 on flights. They are also paying for the venues for these events, which means they're paying NASL, ESL, Gom to host there, plus Gamescom, Toronto, and whatever.. probably about $500, 000 in venue costs, another in production... then there's accommodation (food, etc for players and personalities) and payments to all the casters including THEIR flights and you're looking at roughly $5 million would be my rough estimate. That's not even factoring in the cost of Blizzcon or the time/cost of their employees who are working on WCS. It is quite expensive. For your third question. There are ways to monetize eSports, especially for game developers like Blizzard. Riot and Valve have done a great job. While Riot may not directly profit from LCS yet, the extra value they get from decals, merch, skins, and champions over a year almost surely covers the cost of their eSports expense. Likewise for Valve. Blizzard can't quite do the same for SC but there are ways and some things they can copy.. like a compendium for example for the World Finals would be a grwat revenue tool. The Dota 2 compendiums are interesting. I know those helped increase the prize pool for The International. Does anyone have an estimate of how many were sold, based on how much of each purchase went to the prize pool, and how much they raised the prize pool? Edit: got it, looks like $2.50 of every compendium went to the prize pool, $10 per compendium. They increased the prize pool by $1,274,380, so that's about 510,000 compendiums sold, they get $7.50 per after the prize-pool cut, so that's about $3.8 million earned from compendium sales. I'm assuming your recommendation to Blizzard might be to make SC2 multiplayer F2P and earn revenue through micro transactions, or would you recommend they try selling SC2 like normal, with eSports-related micro transactions on top of that? | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On September 21 2013 08:05 Xeris wrote: Thanks Plexa, btw. Blizzard didn't play a huge role as far as I know, they really started putting their hands in the pot as BW was getting really big, which is why you had quite a bit of dramam between them and KeSPA around 2008-2009 if I recall. Oh boy, the reason why Blizzard came after KeSPA to begin with was because KeSPA were charging licensing fees to broadcast tournaments to OGN and a certain special tournament outside of Korea. That's what made them go, "Wait a second. Hold the phone." They had every reason to come after them and it's not because BW was just getting big. In fact, the Golden Years were already over and Blizzard was posturing for the release of the new game. Ugh, I know it's old but there you have it folks. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On September 21 2013 08:07 Xeris wrote: Promoting team rather than individual competition, localizing regions, and disallowing pro players from playing in non WCS events are three very specific ways I discussed for Blizzard to help develop players. I also explained the benefits. I'll repeat myself. Your solutions do not promote good methods of developing players. You aren't really positioning them to have successful runs outside of their regions. It has every bit to do with success. Let's compare your model to let's say my model. Your focus is on regional marketing & limited growth for players (they aren't getting high end repetitions). Whereas with my model you have the best of both worlds. You have marketing, you have storytelling and there would be a more level playing field with the schedule and repetitions. I like to turn over every stone. | ||
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PineapplePizza
United States749 Posts
On September 21 2013 06:07 Whiplash wrote: I would like to see a very big overhaul with LotV, and I'd also like to see blizzard have the community take a more active role in helping shape what it should become. It seems like Blizzard is starting to get on track with the Diablo 3 expansion (removing the AH among a huge amount of improvements) and Hearthstone (they have said on Turn 2 that they are going to focus on implementing features that the community pushes for), but there is just so much silence currently from Blizzard in regards to their current plans with SC2, I'd love some transparency. I think the progress in d3 is an exceptional case. It was a gigantic shitstorm caused by insanely angry d2 fans and Jay Wilson, that the company simply could not ignore. We would need an equivalent shitstorm to prompt change for SC2, but nobody who counts to Blizzard (the pros are too biased to give feedback in their opinion) is willing to make anything happen, and we don't have a Jay Wilson. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On September 21 2013 08:59 PineapplePizza wrote: I think the progress in d3 is an exceptional case. It was a gigantic shitstorm caused by insanely angry d2 fans and Jay Wilson, that the company simply could not ignore. We would need an equivalent shitstorm to prompt change for SC2, but nobody who counts to Blizzard (the pros are too biased to give feedback in their opinion) is willing to make anything happen, and we don't have a Jay Wilson. Jay Wilson is kind of a big deal though. When your Game Director resigns because they don't like the direction the game is going in? That's cause for alarm yet the suits didn't mind it because their concern is about monetizing the frigging game. | ||
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looknohands119
United States815 Posts
P.S. To the community, stop this SC2 is dying nonsense. Its a self-fulfilling prophecy that makes the community a crappy, uninviting, depressing place to be. Telling truth to power can, at times be very important, but when repeating a disputed view of the truth ad-nauseum is hurting the very community you are hoping to protect, its time to give it a rest. | ||
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Schism
Australia85 Posts
Make some bigger team maps to counter the strongest rushes to make sure the games get into the mid-late. Get some maps out there like Dark Continent and Killing Fields from BW - no protected main, no easy expos...throw caution to the wind. Again, almost anyone can be really good - even elite - at team games. If you're a 70 APM player who can't really bust out of gold or platinum 1v1 but are diamond/master team player, who you gonna watch, the boring rubbish that was Taeja-Innovation finals or a DOTA2/LOL pro game? Because SC2 doesn't offer any competition to those team based games at the moment. It is going to be worse when BAS arrives, SC2 is going to bleed even more. The e-sports community for SC2 needs to do something NOW - not tomorrow, next month, next patch...but now. | ||
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