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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 21 2013 10:49 RaZorwire wrote:Well written post overall, but there's one part that I'm a bit confused about. Show nested quote +On September 21 2013 03:40 Xeris wrote:
Riot's idea here is really great, if I understand it correctly. Pro teams are restricted to only compete in the LCS. They are unable to play in 'amateur' events like the MCS, MLG Invitationals, and the like. This is great because it gives amateur teams like Denial eSports the opportunity to win ~$10,000 in tournaments. If Blizzard restricted pro team players to only compete in WCS or other major events it would give more players an opportunity to win money, as well as create scarcity.
If you can see Flash stream every day, it makes his tournament appearances less interesting; if Flash plays in every tournament, it makes things stale. If you know you will only get to see Flash play in the WCS, you'll damn well be tuning in to watch him play because you won't get another opportunity.
Sorry if I'm missing something, but wouldn't this essentially mean that we'd be restricting access to players (who might want to go to a lot of different tournaments) for the sake of making them feel more exclusive? Screwing players over for the sake of viewership pleasure? I mean, I understand the idea, but ultimately, I think the players have too little power as it is, and severly limiting their ability to choose which tournaments to go to doesn't feel like an improvement.
Yes, that is a trade off of employing Riot's model to SC2. A lot of people don't understand that that's what a region lock entails, but Xeris does and explained it well.
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On September 21 2013 12:10 Xeris wrote:
It's telling enough that they and other prominent non Korean figures (IdrA for example) have quit because they don't enjoy the game.
But not entirely unexpected. Unlike other games, Starcraft has been around for so long that turnover is inevitable. The game itself is the least of the problems that Starcraft faces; it's a good enough game as is. All the social issues that surround the game coupled with the moba crazy are far more impactful.
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On September 21 2013 12:44 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2013 10:49 RaZorwire wrote:Well written post overall, but there's one part that I'm a bit confused about. On September 21 2013 03:40 Xeris wrote:
Riot's idea here is really great, if I understand it correctly. Pro teams are restricted to only compete in the LCS. They are unable to play in 'amateur' events like the MCS, MLG Invitationals, and the like. This is great because it gives amateur teams like Denial eSports the opportunity to win ~$10,000 in tournaments. If Blizzard restricted pro team players to only compete in WCS or other major events it would give more players an opportunity to win money, as well as create scarcity.
If you can see Flash stream every day, it makes his tournament appearances less interesting; if Flash plays in every tournament, it makes things stale. If you know you will only get to see Flash play in the WCS, you'll damn well be tuning in to watch him play because you won't get another opportunity.
Sorry if I'm missing something, but wouldn't this essentially mean that we'd be restricting access to players (who might want to go to a lot of different tournaments) for the sake of making them feel more exclusive? Screwing players over for the sake of viewership pleasure? I mean, I understand the idea, but ultimately, I think the players have too little power as it is, and severly limiting their ability to choose which tournaments to go to doesn't feel like an improvement. Yes, that is a trade off of employing Riot's model to SC2. A lot of people don't understand that that's what a region lock entails, but Xeris does and explained it well.
Errr Riot's model is actually pretty bad. There are all sorts of flaws with their system and it isn't ideal for individuals let alone a Pro League format. Your goal is to facilitate a format where players can be successful globally from a marketing standpoint and provide them with the resources to actually win.
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On September 21 2013 09:26 Schism wrote:
I've said it in a few posts around here. They must start looking at having team games at the big tournaments. It should be written in to pro contracts that they play team games. Team games in SC2 can be unbalanced but they are crazy and fun to watch.
Make some bigger team maps to counter the strongest rushes to make sure the games get into the mid-late. Get some maps out there like Dark Continent and Killing Fields from BW - no protected main, no easy expos...throw caution to the wind.
Again, almost anyone can be really good - even elite - at team games. If you're a 70 APM player who can't really bust out of gold or platinum 1v1 but are diamond/master team player, who you gonna watch, the boring rubbish that was Taeja-Innovation finals or a DOTA2/LOL pro game? Because SC2 doesn't offer any competition to those team based games at the moment. It is going to be worse when BAS arrives, SC2 is going to bleed even more. The e-sports community for SC2 needs to do something NOW - not tomorrow, next month, next patch...but now.
Lmao, Competitive Starcraft is 1v1 . People want that to be more exciting and better. But by doing what you suggests (which is not nature in SC) its not really Starcraft anymore. That's why there are MOBA's and FPS for team games.
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Long, but sorry that I don't quite agree with it 
And of course, don't expect me to write a wall of text to justify myself.
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SC2 currently needs a serious change in LotV. Really agree with the post here, especially on the part on the micro capability of BW.
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On September 21 2013 03:40 Xeris wrote:What's the problem: I feel like SC2's gameplay is inherently less fun to watch than Brood War, aside from the graphics. Matches feel stale and anticlimactic.There was a really great article HERE that discusses the issue of why Brood War and StarCraft 2 are different games. It hinges on Day9's analysis of 'frisbee vs baseball'. Unfortunately for StarCraft 2, the 'frisbee' is more fun and exciting to watch. What I mean by this is, using the information provided in the aforementioned article, battles in StarCraft 2 are much less interesting than in Brood War. The game aspects that make StarCraft 2 insanely difficult to master and challenging go largely unappreciated by viewers. For example: the positioning and posturing of two armies prior to a battle are absolutely key in StarCraft 2, because once the battle starts, little can be done to change the outcome. This posturing however is incredibly hard to translate into excitement on the part of the viewer. StarCraft 2 battles feature things blowing up, and blobs disappearing. There is much less micro and "play" potential in StarCraft 2 because of how its pathing and units are designed.
This is perfectly explained.
Blizzard tried to go for "perfection" with SC2 and added a smooth pathing system that allowed the units to maximize automatically and without requiring any micro. This can be put on the large list of "casual friendly" things, but it actually isnt that friendly to casuals at all, because the "unliminted unit selection + perfect pathing + boosted unit production"-combination ends up with two casuals playing against each other and one starting to produce stuff in large quantities 30 seconds before his buddy and then simply going on to win because of pure superior numbers. That isnt a "fun way" to play or lose a game, because against superior numbers you dont have a chance to win.
In BW you were limited by the pathing AND the unit selection limit, so the attacker would never arrive at "automatically maximized potential" and you had a chance to defend certain choke points with fewer units because of the lack of overwhelming forces. Casuals dont have the same control as professionals, so the "clunky movement" and limited unit selection equalized attacker and defender. In SC2 however the perfect unit control and unlimited unit selection gives a huge advantage to the attacker because he chooses where the attack will take place and there can always be situations of "locally superior numbers" for an easy partial victory and a starting advantage in a large brawl.
Blizzard doesnt understand this as their reply to the "dynamic unit movement" thread has shown.
Perfection is boring IMO, because it is more interesting to watch someone overcome hardships instead of watching someone being born with s silver spoon in his mouth and then succeeding easily. The "hardships of the BW UI" allow for someone who is slower than his buddy but smarter in his planning to catch up and overtake ... thus I call them "equalizers" rather than hardships.
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after reading the first 2 points of your article and disagreeing with both, I stopped reading, sorry.
User was warned for this post
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On September 21 2013 03:40 Xeris wrote:
For example: the positioning and posturing of two armies prior to a battle are absolutely key in StarCraft 2, because once the battle starts, little can be done to change the outcome. This posturing however is incredibly hard to translate into excitement on the part of the viewer. StarCraft 2 battles feature things blowing up, and blobs disappearing. There is much less micro and "play" potential in StarCraft 2 because of how its pathing and units are designed.
Hit the nail on the head.
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thanks for the OP, good job.
but i dont agree with you olympic type of WCS. it would 100% be boring if we see the korean champion stomping the other champions.
as a example you brought up US basketball team killing everyone else.
its a bad example, imo, because so many people are hyped to see the "dream team" they would never see.
also its only every 4th year and that giant time span creates hype from its own. (4 years are huge in esports)
basketball is also super fun to watch when one team can just showing up and do crazy moves. not so much in SC2
another point where i slightly disagree is that the game mechanics cant make SC2 a more watchable BW game.
it will probably be always like that, so you are basically right.
but the MMMM vs ling/bling/muta matchup is, imo, superintense and fun to watch. so i think its possible to create awesome stuff with the SC2 mechanics (but probably too hard to realize in every matchup)
and of course there should be more than one unitcomposition
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Blizzard removed most of the micro from the game, removed most of the macro mechanics that would separate mediocre players from great players, added blob mechanics and sped the game up.
The result is a game that isn't fun. simple as that.
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Sorry, but the OP is rubbish. It's a "SC2 is dying" narrative piece where the only shred of data for identical brackets where "nothing changes" is the WCS Season 1 and 2 Finals, where aLive is the only player in both quarterfinals. The other 7 players in the two brackets are completely different.
Then it veers toward the tired narratives that Koreans are faceless and therefore all the same person and that NA sucks.
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agree with everything, best post in long time, sadly nothing will change, my only hope it's a BW remake after the end of sc2
maybe they want to extend his life, who know...
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Papua New Guinea1058 Posts
I like all those new threads basically saying 'SUMTINGSWONG BUT IONNO HAO TO FIX'. We have to make sure that NA players play in the finals by having direct-to-finals seeds for them, so that koreans have some easy 3-0's because having good players play against each other isn't good enough, we need some big names with no particular skill instead, coz hype u kno. OMG NBA is so bad, there's basically only american players there, nothing changes, why would I watch it. 0/5
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Starcarft isn't a casual game. You need a relatively high-end working PC and a 60$ subscription to play the game. I bet most people haven't heard about Starcraft at all.
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it may seem a little weaker in general as ITS NOT NEW ANYMORE! Nearly all players came from heavy BW experience, havent people just burned themselves out now? I feel the scene will dip for a while anyway, people just want to do other shit. People are just fed up. Im fed up although i still play games of sc2 everyday but kind of bored of knowing ive lost OR coming to a mass death ball end fight, i find it boring. You can see most of the top streamers are getting into playing some of the moba games, I dont think there is a single streamer im subscribed to has not played some dota/lol on their stream in the last week. People are still going to play. we are still going to see full tournaments.
Personality. Sorry sc2 took a turn for the worse when idra left. Sorry! its true! He was the ONLY really VOCAL player who wants afraid to get the story going. Im sorry its just the way it feels. MC and Naniwa are kinda similar but not like idra did it. Noone seems interesting anymore. All players need translation now so it always seems kinda disjointed.
Casual players . . fuck them. SC2's very nature is a hard game and if you want to play it there you go. We have arcade, unranked and the ladder . . JUST LIKE ANY OTHER FUCKING GAME! They all have their quickmodes and ranked modes . . this is ours!. All the casuals want to spend most of their time on the console anyway. I want to go as far as to say the CASUAL gamer IS NOT a PC gamer. PC gamers are a little more in tune with their own community. I work with 11-16 yr olds NOT ONE OF THEM PLAY SC2 (out of 1600) of have even heard about it in most cases but they all went and bought GTA5 the other day and are now pining over COD:ghost. i saw a lol stream the other week with 409,800 people watching it when sc2 peaked ata round 46000. . . i do remember the DH or MLG which only just scraped 100000 . . . We are a smaller community. No need to try and grow it, we do our best but your demographic 8 - 21 yr olds are not going to play sc2. Its too much time to sit and watch the learning vods and then play the games. Ive been playing this since 1997 and im pretty old now, kids just dont have the stay power for this game!
where do we go from here? Nowhere. Stay where we are. We are privileged to have taken the time the learn and be a part of this underground (in the big scheme of things) community and we should all just keep the community stronger within ourselves. Balance has always been good in this game. There are plenty of updates, changes and people introducing new ideas which then have to be re figured out.
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One thing i am totally agree is bw is more fun to watch than sc2.
But then again i am 30++... if you ask gamer who is in his 20 + - , he will sc2 is more fun.
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Nice and interesting thread.
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EPT
