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On September 21 2013 15:57 Esoterikk wrote:
Blizzard removed most of the micro from the game, removed most of the macro mechanics that would separate mediocre players from great players, added blob mechanics and sped the game up.
The result is a game that isn't fun. simple as that.
This....well. Said sir. But what's your solution?
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Why don't Blizzard just release a HD version of Broodwar. Broodwar game engine with SC2 Graphics engine = best game ever, problem solved!
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Too bad its wasted effort. Blizzard will not care.
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On September 21 2013 17:35 Chinnro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2013 15:57 Esoterikk wrote:
Blizzard removed most of the micro from the game, removed most of the macro mechanics that would separate mediocre players from great players, added blob mechanics and sped the game up.
The result is a game that isn't fun. simple as that. This....well. Said sir. But what's your solution?
With such a great predecessor to compare with it is ridiculously easy what Blizzard needs to do:
- get rid of the "perfectly clumping movement AI" and replace it with a "forced spreading system" where you can clump up your unit through micro
- get rid of the unlimited unit selection to make "using overwhelming forces" not as easy as it is now in SC2
- take out the production AND economy speed boosts for all races because you wont need that many units with auto-spreading anyways
Additionally they need to cut down the "skip/abuse defensive position skills" like cliffwalking/-jumping, Forcefield, Fungal, Warp-in, ... to allow for defensive positions to be valuable again. After that only a few minor stat adjustments to the units are needed and the game gets more interesting again because "overwhelming forces" AND most critically "critical numbers" (for ground forces) are a thing of the past.
Basically they need to do everything to get rid of CRITICAL NUMBERS for ground forces and put in punishments for critical numbers for air units. Thats how it was in BW ...
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Blizzard has given the Community every tool and leave to
1. Modify the game and gameplay and balance to "our" standards ( even BW had if you want)
2. Make our own ladder (like ICCUP)
3. Make our own Tournaments
But still its more convenient to bitch about whats wrong with hitting the "find match" button and how it´s not for casuals.
TL is community power. Discuss 1.units 2.stats and implement the same units on Custom ladder maps that are DL in bnet. Search for games in IRC and play ICCup style ladder.
-Be Happy-
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Wow finally someone understands.
Doubt anything will be done about the problems but good to have it spotlight'd nonetheless.
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On September 21 2013 18:14 plgElwood wrote:
Blizzard has given the Community every tool and leave to
1. Modify the game and gameplay and balance to "our" standards ( even BW had if you want)
2. Make our own ladder (like ICCUP)
3. Make our own Tournaments
But still its more convenient to bitch about whats wrong with hitting the "find match" button and how it´s not for casuals.
TL is community power. Discuss 1.units 2.stats and implement the same units on Custom ladder maps that are DL in bnet. Search for games in IRC and play ICCup style ladder.
-Be Happy-
I have to agree that we need less complain and more custom game experimentation. Several of the changes suggested in the many thoughtful posts in the thread (including OP) could be implemented in a map.
Obviously re-working the pathing is not an option but it is arguably not desirable anyway.
It's relatively easy to play with things like DPS and abilities to alter the pace of battles & opportunities for micro, to reduce the degree to which one is punished by a missed drop, etc. There may be many other good ideas that can be implemented with what we already have available.
Why not play with it? If the community sets out to produce a game that is superior to vanilla SC2 it may well happen and could replace SC2 in the competitive scene (not unlike WC3 -> DotA).
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I think this analysis has not focused enough on the gameplay. SC2 past the mid-game is a terrible game.. it is a no-comebacks one-deathball-fight game.
Dare I say, the game was more entertaining to watch during the Metalopolis-Steppes of War-Jungle Basin, etc.. era. There is no macro in this game. it is a "maxed out in 10 min" game which ends in a 30 seconds fight.
I simply cannot stress enough the need to anyone who defends SC2 to PLEASE go watch 10+ pro BW games from 2008 or so. You will see: Army flanks, multi-drops, exciting reaver drops, Amazingly complex maneuvers (ZvT with dark swarm), contains, small armies fighting for an expand position, defender's advantage. There is nothing like this in SC2. PLEASE GO WATCH SOME BROOD WAR BEFORE DEFENDING STARCRAFT 2, OTHERWISE YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!!
Looking at the scene instead of the actual game is not the right way to analyze this trainwreck. I don't think there's ever been much enjoyment over the game.. it has been mostly over the players and the tournaments. People wanted the new BroodWar, so they came along.
Yes, Battle.Net was plain shit, yes the developpers did not listen and still don't even if, after the #saveHoTS thing they pretended to listen but the only change they made was trivial balance bullshit, yes the oversaturated proscene killed the whole magic that we can get from listening to TI3 or LCS, but all of these are more excuses than reasons. The gameplay is what's wrong with this game.. or rather the design, because no one can actually say that DoTA2 or LoL are better made than SC2. SC2 is an amazing creation in terms of graphics and game engine (although the huge Battle.Net upgrade prior to HoTS gave me lag spikes and horrible FPS, while I used to run all of it at ultra with smooth action) All of this really makes me think that the guys who developped the game in the first place are long gone, while those who designed BNet and the whole design of the gameplay have no idea what they're doing.
Again.. i can't stress this enough: PLEASE GO WATCH SOME BROOD WAR. it is NOTHING like SC2..
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I just personally stop caring to play because I lost interest due to pretty much having to use the same build/unit composition all the time and I didnt agree with how the meta was going.
I stop watching because of how pointless it was since who ever become champion in w/e tournament you are watching ceases to have any meaning a month later. We have yet to have a SINGLE person who has dominated the scene long enough to be consider a bonjiwa. This is what truly make me sad because it feels like there isnt enough stuff to do in sc2 to show the difference between the skilled and the very skilled player and thus leading to new champion. This also doesnt help that the title champion doesnt mean much with how many tournament there are anyways making last week champion forgotten in time.
I think they need to address the first core issue and that is fixing this stagnant and boring meta game that has been created. I purpose 2 supply tanks since how irrelevant the tanks has become with the addition of the mine and even being 2 supply, I doubt it would become OP with so many option to deal with tanks already (might consider getting rid of free seige if this is the case) which could lead to mech not sucking as much if you have more access to tanks or freeing supply for other units. Therefore leading to different unit composition in all match up if mech is actually viable.
On September 21 2013 18:37 Patate wrote:
I think this analysis has not focused enough on the gameplay. SC2 past the mid-game is a terrible game.. it is a no-comebacks one-deathball-fight game.
Dare I say, the game was more entertaining to watch during the Metalopolis-Steppes of War-Jungle Basin, etc.. era. There is no macro in this game. it is a "maxed out in 10 min" game which ends in a 30 seconds fight.
I simply cannot stress enough the need to anyone who defends SC2 to PLEASE go watch 10+ pro BW games from 2008 or so. You will see: Army flanks, multi-drops, exciting reaver drops, Amazingly complex maneuvers (ZvT with dark swarm), contains, small armies fighting for an expand position, defender's advantage. There is nothing like this in SC2. PLEASE GO WATCH SOME BROOD WAR BEFORE DEFENDING STARCRAFT 2, OTHERWISE YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!!
Looking at the scene instead of the actual game is not the right way to analyze this trainwreck. I don't think there's ever been much enjoyment over the game.. it has been mostly over the players and the tournaments. People wanted the new BroodWar, so they came along.
Yes, Battle.Net was plain shit, yes the developpers did not listen and still don't even if, after the #saveHoTS thing they pretended to listen but the only change they made was trivial balance bullshit, yes the oversaturated proscene killed the whole magic that we can get from listening to TI3 or LCS, but all of these are more excuses than reasons. The gameplay is what's wrong with this game.. or rather the design, because no one can actually say that DoTA2 or LoL are better made than SC2. SC2 is an amazing creation in terms of graphics and game engine (although the huge Battle.Net upgrade prior to HoTS gave me lag spikes and horrible FPS, while I used to run all of it at ultra with smooth action) All of this really makes me think that the guys who developped the game in the first place are long gone, while those who designed BNet and the whole design of the gameplay have no idea what they're doing.
Again.. i can't stress this enough: PLEASE GO WATCH SOME BROOD WAR. it is NOTHING like SC2..
SC2 isnt as bad as you make it sound to be honest. I think it a fine RTS but when compare to BW, it doesnt even come close to BW in term of everything when comparing actual game play and depth.
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i agree with a lot of this. however, the thing with the WCS system is that it is not only supposed to be the most hyped sc2 event (which i have to agree, for some reason it would for many people be more hyped if there were more foreigners), but it's also supposed to be the event with the toughest competition as we try to find out who is the best player in the world. giving foreigners 'free entry' into this tournament (as in allow them to avoid Koreans in the process of qualifying for WCS finals) would immediately devalue the level of competition significantly and therefore make the tournament look like a joke from the standpoint of 'highest level of play'. if the GSL is much more difficult than WCS finals, not a single problem was solved that day and Blizzard would look ridiculous. imagine Huk, Scarlett, Suppy, Naniwa, Nerchio, Lucifron and Happy (no offense to any of these players; just an example) at WCS finals with like 4 top Koreans. wouldn't that look hella wrong? what do you think how close a bo3 between Innovation and Huk would be? Bomber vs Lucifron? Soulkey vs Nerchio? you catch my drift.
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On September 21 2013 11:29 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2013 10:49 RaZorwire wrote:Well written post overall, but there's one part that I'm a bit confused about. On September 21 2013 03:40 Xeris wrote:
Riot's idea here is really great, if I understand it correctly. Pro teams are restricted to only compete in the LCS. They are unable to play in 'amateur' events like the MCS, MLG Invitationals, and the like. This is great because it gives amateur teams like Denial eSports the opportunity to win ~$10,000 in tournaments. If Blizzard restricted pro team players to only compete in WCS or other major events it would give more players an opportunity to win money, as well as create scarcity.
If you can see Flash stream every day, it makes his tournament appearances less interesting; if Flash plays in every tournament, it makes things stale. If you know you will only get to see Flash play in the WCS, you'll damn well be tuning in to watch him play because you won't get another opportunity.
Sorry if I'm missing something, but wouldn't this essentially mean that we'd be restricting access to players (who might want to go to a lot of different tournaments) for the sake of making them feel more exclusive? Screwing players over for the sake of viewership pleasure? I mean, I understand the idea, but ultimately, I think the players have too little power as it is, and severly limiting their ability to choose which tournaments to go to doesn't feel like an improvement. It isn't screwing players over. It's restricting access so you don't have Flash winning every single tournament, for example. It gives professional players a tournament system to participate in, and it gives non professional players more access for exposure and money. What makes Riot's system work is that they actually salary the pro teams/players so it's economically viable for them to not play other non LCS events.
"Screwing over" might be an exaggeration, but you are still restricting the freedom of professional players pretty severely. There are various reasons for why a player might not want to go to certain events in a tournament structure, and preventing them from going anywhere else because viewers might get tired of seeing them seems like a pretty serious limitation in the players' ability to make choices for their own career. I mean, ultimately, they are the ones dedicating their lives to playing the game, and they should be allowed to choose what they want to do with all that effort.
And also, it's not like "Flash winning every tournament" has ever been an issue in the SC2 scene, since there's never been a player with that level of consistency over a long period of time (yet, at least). If anything, I'm sure some people would argue that the lack of consistency in tournament results is a problem in itself with SC2 - and making top players appear less frequently in major tournaments wouldn't help with that.
I agree that it would be a good idea to give players who are just outside the pro scene a platform to get more spotlight and compete for money, and I wouldn't mind having a few tournaments that are limited to non-pros (or maybe just to players who havn't been able to qualify for WCS, or something), but preventing pro players from entering anything that isn't WCS + maybe a few other tournaments seems like an overreaction.
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aren't we adressing well written posts like these to blizzard since sc2 beta ?
did they ever change anything ?
just wait for the next generation of rts
some studio will come up with something i'm pretty sure
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On September 21 2013 18:37 Patate wrote:PLEASE GO WATCH SOME BROOD WAR BEFORE DEFENDING STARCRAFT 2, OTHERWISE YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!!
I think you should go watch some Starcraft 2 before critisizing it since you clearly don't know what you're talking about.
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On September 21 2013 18:46 RaZorwire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2013 18:37 Patate wrote:PLEASE GO WATCH SOME BROOD WAR BEFORE DEFENDING STARCRAFT 2, OTHERWISE YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!! I think you should go watch some Starcraft 2 before critisizing it since you clearly don't know what you're talking about.
well the point is you can pretty much guarantee every bw player has played sc2, while about 1% of the sc2 players maybe ever watched a bw game let alone played it
which pretty much means, yes their arguments on the matter are void
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On September 21 2013 18:46 RaZorwire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2013 18:37 Patate wrote:PLEASE GO WATCH SOME BROOD WAR BEFORE DEFENDING STARCRAFT 2, OTHERWISE YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!! I think you should go watch some Starcraft 2 before critisizing it since you clearly don't know what you're talking about.
I've watched SC2 from its release up to a few months before HoTS. Then after the expansion was out, I watched a few events only to realize it's the same design.. just with different units.
Kind of insulting that someone like you tells me such things.
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Day9's analogy was quite apt imo.
When I play BW I feel like Blizz will give me a unit and say "here's a unit. Good luck."
In SC2 I feel like it's more "here's a unit, and here's what it does."
Composition rules in SC2, and I'm not sure it's a good thing, making the same magic happen with what is supposedly inferior units that we saw in BW just doesn't work in SC2, and it's a loss that is really hurting the game from the spectator's perspective. The Reaver vs the Colossi is probably the best comparison of how different the games actually are, and how much depth was actually lost.
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On September 21 2013 18:37 SheaR619 wrote:
I just personally stop caring to play because I lost interest due to pretty much having to use the same build/unit composition all the time and I didnt agree with how the meta was going.
I stop watching because of how pointless it was since who ever become champion in w/e tournament you are watching ceases to have any meaning a month later. We have yet to have a SINGLE person who has dominated the scene long enough to be consider a bonjiwa. This is what truly make me sad because it feels like there isnt enough stuff to do in sc2 to show the difference between the skilled and the very skilled player and thus leading to new champion. This also doesnt help that the title champion doesnt mean much with how many tournament there are anyways making last week champion forgotten in time.
You pretty much stated what we have all been feeling and pretty much being angry about. Since no matter how we cry nothing changes, all we hear is "no big changes till LotV where the current issues would be fixed" but we af course heard the same crap with Hots, and the only thing that did is to create more problems. If you watch the last ep of "META" i think they pretty much state to obvious problem with every matchup (then they go back to sugar talk SC, trying to convince them self the is the most amazing game in the world, but it always nice to see that even those payed to promote SC slowly get wake-up calls)
- the greatest issue with the game "hard counters" especially in PvZ and slow reaction times - the match just boils down to build orders. if player A pulls a composition that player B is not ready -> A wins if B is ready -> B wins. Thou the match will probably go another 20 min since sealing the deal is such a pain nowadays. Both Zerg and Protoss players hate this matchups since skills come ..third. Then there are PvP,ZvZ,PvT, that arent in such bad shape. And finally TvZ probably the most entertain match up (not perfect thou, you can find issues everywhere) to watch - since is constant battles and back and forth action, thou its just the same thing over and over again. Again watch it its hard to put 40 mins of talk into few lines, you can skip the second part nothing important said there mostly sugar talk and denial (thou there were few good jokes  )
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On September 21 2013 18:49 Boonbag wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2013 18:46 RaZorwire wrote:On September 21 2013 18:37 Patate wrote:PLEASE GO WATCH SOME BROOD WAR BEFORE DEFENDING STARCRAFT 2, OTHERWISE YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!! I think you should go watch some Starcraft 2 before critisizing it since you clearly don't know what you're talking about. well the point is you can pretty much guarantee every bw player has played sc2, while about 1% of the sc2 players maybe ever watched a bw game let alone played it which pretty much means, yes their arguments on the matter are void
they can't argue against bw, but they can still argue for sc2 and pick up arguments from the thread. Someone shouting you know nothing is just feeling helpless and has no idea how to argument his stance.
On topic the player bit is quiet interesting read, where the rest feels like i read it somewhere else and it did never hit the mark really and is based on personal taste, just like the part about the players.
Though personal tastes are a nice thing to go after for a developer, atleast if you please the majority of people. The Problem is finding out if the majority really wants it.
D3 giving a good example with the AH removal, its silly and they will lose money but most people are happy !
Locked Regions in WCS though seem to be a critical topic, where no one can agree with the other. I personally like Foreigners standing their ground without help and not getting slaughtered as soon as they meet a Korean unless they are named Mondragon.
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On September 21 2013 16:53 pedduck wrote:
One thing i am totally agree is bw is more fun to watch than sc2.
But then again i am 30++... if you ask gamer who is in his 20 + - , he will sc2 is more fun.
the thing is, that those people never tried really BW, instead we 25/30+++, have already played sc2
On September 21 2013 18:55 Squat wrote:
Day9's analogy was quite apt imo.
When I play BW I feel like Blizz will give me a unit and say "here's a unit. Good luck."
In SC2 I feel like it's more "here's a unit, and here's what it does."
Composition rules in SC2, and I'm not sure it's a good thing, making the same magic happen with what is supposedly inferior units that we saw in BW just doesn't work in SC2, and it's a loss that is really hurting the game from the spectator's perspective. The Reaver vs the Colossi is probably the best comparison of how different the games actually are, and how much depth was actually lost.
this million time
in sc2 it's all established, in BW you must establish it
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EPT
