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DinoToss
Poland507 Posts
On September 21 2013 20:51 Elroi wrote: This is pretty much what Im hoping for as well. I hope the entire scene doesn't have time to die in the mean time though. I can't name a party who could od it though. People here, like to say Valve, i wish i liked Moba, cause with how they managed to turn around the gold CS scene into 2nd rate esports is beyond me. | ||
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RaZorwire
Sweden718 Posts
Again, there's nothing wrong if you dislike the way SC2 is played, but the game would never have reached the state and size it was at in 2011 if a majority of the community agreed with you. The fact that it's supposed decline didn't start until several years after release suggest the gameplay was never the problem. Also, HotS generally seems better suited for multi-tasking and less focused on death balls than WoL was, so if the game is still in decline (which might not even be true, but if), doesn't that imply that the way the game plays out never was the problem? And if it really is true (as someone tried to point out last page) that a majority of SC2 players have never played BW, why would the supposed superiority of BW matter? If hardcore BW-fans really are a small part of the community, then SC2 being different than BW wouldn't hurt viewership numbers much. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10596 Posts
On September 21 2013 19:35 Garmer wrote: the thing is, that those people never tried really BW, instead we 25/30+++, have already played sc2 this million time in sc2 it's all established, in BW you must establish it Yeah, I played SC/BW from release... And for about 2-3 years i was sure about one thing: Vultures are bad. :D I wasn't even a bad player.. mid/high masters probably in SC2 terms (well actually high masters in ZvP and low masters in ZvT  )The thing is... Vultures when not controlled properly are actually just that, bad and if you never saw the tricks possible with it you just didn't know about the potential. Mind you: Replays were intodruced with a patch, so "knowledge" spread MUCH, MUCH slower. | ||
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Shinta)
United States1716 Posts
As for the "What's the problem: I feel like SC2's gameplay is inherently less fun to watch than Brood War, aside from the graphics. Matches feel stale and anticlimactic." Issue, I think the answer is pretty simple:change the mechanics of the game. There's a reason there are tens of thousands, if not more, of actions being made throughout the game, yet less than 50 or so per battle. The game speed is too fast!!! I've said this over and over, but I don't think people get around to reading it. Starcraft 1, Warcraft 3, it wasn't about the pathing (although pathing made for interesting micro, that wasn't the reason the mechanics are different in SC2), it was simply about the game speed. The speed was slow enough that people actually had time to make a ton of actions within a single battle! Just think about it, if the game was slower, you could have 1) collossi shoot slower yet still be very useful to have in armies, 2) be able to actually micro collossi unlike 95% of pro players who watch theirs die during their a click'd major battles. Not only could you select it and run it away, but you could ALSO select your anti air and actually focus fire what is killing your collossi AND reposition your front line so that it's not fighting without your anti air and collossi. 3) AND, this may be the best part, you can macro perfectly. As it stands now, a player must decide; should I micro these few zealots and make sure they do damage? Or should I just shift-a click them into a mineral line so I can macro better instead. If the game speed were slower, they'd be able to do both, and the defending player would be able to defend, macro, and position their main army at the same time as well. These are just basic examples and tons of changes would be made. The units would stay the same (except a few like swarm hosts would probably change because they are too slow, but maybe not), all that would change is the skill cap when using them. You can also go into how ultras would become more effective, immortals would always be focus firing their targets instead of zerglings, etc etc. This also is not saying a massive decrease in speed is needed. Perhaps just a change from fastest to faster would be enough, but for sure this change needs to happen if blizzard wants to fix what is probably the worst part of SC2. This is also the main reason why players can't get known for certain styles. They can't encorporate a style into their game plan as easily anymore, because strategies don't work like that in a game that's too fast. I mean, players could try, but in the end what it's doing is its taking time away from their macro and away from their army positioning, and the same goes for the defending player, so it still highlights a very obvious skill cap amongst fan favorite situations and scenarios. Aside from that, I want to say that I agree with the LCS formatting. Every region should have exclusivity with WCS, but I think this needs to be done with team formats. ProLeague needs to be the highlight like it used to be. That's where teams make their money and are able to support not only their players but also their managers, coaches, and staff. Korean teams should play in ProLeague all the freakin' time. GSTL and ProLeague need to put money together and make 1 ProLeague that allows for a massive amount of Korean progamers to sustain a healthy and long lived professional sc2 career. The content would be never ending, and individual tournaments would be so much more important than GSL number 526. All the same, follow the same formats in AM and EU. Make all the most popular content teambased, then everyone would know players by team, and teams would choose their representatives to play in huge individual tournaments based on merit. You'd have a lot of fans with a lot more incentive to root for a certain player, whereas right now it's kind of just "hmm, I'll pick this one, this one, and this one!!!" Until you find one player that you might like. Can you imagine? A constantly running, long season of a European ProLeague?! With teams like Dignitas, Empire, Mouz, Millennium, NaVi, and the oh so many other European teams out there. Would any EU fans not watch that??? Teams provide stability to players, yet fans only care about individual players. Teams need to have more control of their own image. Players shouldn't be team swapping so much just because other teams can let them travel more and crap like that, they should join a team with a good image that will allow them to make more fans and that will also be able to provide the best practice environment, coaches, housing, computers, and competitive salary. This is a job and should be treated more like one imo. I actually loved the Pro Gaming license that Koreans had to get back in the day. The system could have been modified, but the idea of it was golden. Sponsors invest money to teams to advertise their company name, teams invest money into players to play entertaining games and win events so they can get more famous and well liked so they can hold events and have a much easier time advertising their sponsors products!! That gives all the emphasis to the teams, giving them the credit they deserve, and having the players just as players to pick from. But how do the players get there? By going through the grueling process of training day in and day out and competing for that chance to be recognized as a pro gamer!!!! Wooo!! Finally you can have a chance to join the best of the best, and make a salary with company benefits etc! These days any player is just anybody. There is no process... One player does well in one random tournament, then either gets picked up by a random team, or falls off because they don't belong to a solid organization. Who in the world thought that was a better idea? | ||
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roym899
Germany426 Posts
Actually I don't really enjoy any team league very much in Starcraft 2 the reason for this is that because of the nature of these team games not involving BO3 or BO5s they are more luck depending compared to 1v1 tournaments. I actually would love to see a tournament forcing a win to be with 1 leg between the players. (kinda like Tennis) | ||
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Sejanus
Lithuania550 Posts
. If the game was doing fine the first few years, why would issues with the gameplay mechanics become an issue after such a long time? Because we can no longer justify them by game being young, we can no longer hope for yet-undiscovered strategies that remove them, we can no longer say "wait for HotS", now novelty weared out, and while it was bearable for a year or two, now we are really fed up with it. | ||
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shaftofpleasure
Korea (North)1375 Posts
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SnuggleZhenya
596 Posts
On September 21 2013 22:08 RaZorwire wrote: Don't get me wrong, having opinions on and suggestions for the gameplay mechanics is good, but it's not like deathballs and a lack of reaver drops are things that just popped up in the game recently and turned people off from watching. If the game was doing fine the first few years, why would issues with the gameplay mechanics become an issue after such a long time? I mean, what happened? People were enjoying SC2 for two years and then suddenly their reaver drop withdrawal kicked in and made them leave? First of all, viewership was dropping off in a big way during WoL as well, and HotS reinvigorated the viewership for a while. The reason is that the games are repetitive. There just honestly isn't a ton of variety. SC2 certainly CAN produce interesting unique games in a competitive setting. But far more often it just produces another round of the same old games I've seen 100 times. The games are exciting when they are new, but after months of the same stuff, people don't tune in, even to see a big name play. Innovation's play is often nearly flawless. But I don't need to see him execute another flawless SCV pull, it just isn't interesting or entertaining the 10th time, let alone the 25th time and so on. | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40186 Posts
On September 21 2013 22:55 shaftofpleasure wrote: Still having problems with chatrooms? loooooooooool this game is so sad. Yeah, there is a major problem with chat rooms: they do not take 60% of screen. | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40186 Posts
On September 21 2013 22:57 SnuggleZhenya wrote: First of all, viewership was dropping off in a big way during WoL as well, and HotS reinvigorated the viewership for a while. The reason is that the games are repetitive. There just honestly isn't a ton of variety. SC2 certainly CAN produce interesting unique games in a competitive setting. But far more often it just produces another round of the same old games I've seen 100 times. The games are exciting when they are new, but after months of the same stuff, people don't tune in, even to see a big name play. Innovation's play is often nearly flawless. But I don't need to see him execute another flawless SCV pull, it just isn't interesting or entertaining the 10th time, let alone the 25th time and so on. That did not stop people from watching BW though.... | ||
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magnaflow
Canada1521 Posts
As for gameplay, IMO I think the games is quite balanced, sure a few tweaks need to be made but overall it is pretty good, I also think the game is fun to play. The problem for me is there is really nothing to play for. The ladder right now is just some place to practice, but nothing to practice for. I want to compete for something, I want to be able to compete in a tournament like my favorite players do (although on a much smaller scale) A tournament at the end of each ladder season against the top 64 of my ladder group, for cool and fun prizes would be fucking awesome, just something, anything to strive for other then league promotion. | ||
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Roe
Canada6002 Posts
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RuiBarbO
United States1340 Posts
Maybe that's true. I don't know. But maybe it's not. SC2 knocked BW into the shadows and everyone who loved BW wanted (understandably) it's successor to be just that, and not some new game. Maybe if LoL and DotA 2 had been the esports games of 2011 and SC2 had come out this year, that would have happened. But I increasing get the feeling that these what-if's are just not helpful. Blizzard has a game that simply cannot be judged next to BW because it isn't the same. If the great things about BW are the only things someone cares about in watching a competitive match, then they will remain disappointed in SC2. But I do think that there are things about SC2---the things that happen in the players heads when they scout and read and respond to each other---that are also interesting in their own right. And I wonder if it wouldn't be more productive to try to flesh out those things for the viewers, rather than keep attempting to make SC2 feel like a different game. | ||
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Erik.TheRed
United States1655 Posts
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Holy_AT
Austria978 Posts
Broodwar is put on the highest of high pedestal, but does it really deserve to be there ? Outside of korea, meaning the rest of the world, BW was not *the hit*. Yes there was a sworn in hardcore community and many people played it, it was not that multiplayer hit people believe it to be nowadays. It rose to *fame* one can say in korea, but also under special circumstances. Also it is a strategy game and fewer casual players will play it and they will leave if there is nothing for them in the game anymore. SC 2 had a great start, it was picked up especially by the foreign scene at the beginning while Korea was slow. The game was hyped, many casuals played SCI or broodwar single player and wanted to play this game as well so there was a relative broad basis at the start. But this basis of people never really got that much bigger after the first few month or the first year in my opinion. The casuals started to loose interest, now even the amateurs and pro players start to loose interest in the game. I dont talk for the pro players, but why does the average Joe loose interest ? Because there is nothing new in the game. No content, no new units or major changes or diversions. There may be changes on how the game is played when new meta games emerges, but the game is stall and thats something the average video gamer dislikes. He wants something new, to try something new, he wants blizzard to provide something new, advertize tournaments and what not. II do not like LoL that much gameplaywise, but just look at it. New heroes every month, new skinns, games or tournaments beeing advertised on the fucking client. There are news videos and what not on the fucking client. Riot is working hard even though the game is out to make the people enjoy and pay for it (although its free). And look at blizzard: They made the game and now their job is done for them. They may do some minor balance patches when their lofty highborn David Kim feels up to it and that's it. Blizzard is like fire and forget, buy and die. Just like they did with diablo 3. Buy the crap and play it we're not doing anything for you although everyone is upset and hattin. They of course screwd around with the balance a bit and that's it. After month or more then a year ??? they finally included the arena multiplayer pvp stuff they had more or lesson promised from the start and what not. And I do not understand it. Blizzard is making WoW where they throw in new stuff every month or so to keep players happy. New gear, new bosses and monsters new pets new.. new everything. Well it must not go to that extreme but I think there is always some place in a game for change. | ||
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Aeceus
United Kingdom1278 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
I agree partly with the first points, especially that there is too much content and also that there is maybe not enough emphasis on teams. The part about a more regional WCS system has been discussed a lot and I agree with it. WCS EU should be about the best Europeans, WCS America about the best Americans. That was the intention, but it got lost somewhere along the way. About battle.net flaws... Yeah there are flaws, but in all honesty, if everyone in every chat is an a**hole and "instantly can get you talking to people" means that I have to deal with 14year olds half of my online time, then I can only say that I can do without it. Nevertheless I understand your point, and some of my best SC2 experiences were when that "1v1 Obs" map was superpopular, back in 2011, and you'd watch and play in turns and chat with all the guys during the games you didn't play. For the gameplay part, I'm just gonna put it like that: I disagree hugely. The only point you have is that TvP and TvZ are very stale. Which has nothing to do with design, but with balancing reasons and could easily be solved if blizzard would buff tanks and tweak bio-counters to a state where you can actually force the Terran to play something that isn't only MMM in the lategame. | ||
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iTzSnypah
United States1738 Posts
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40186 Posts
On September 22 2013 00:05 iTzSnypah wrote: I really like your idea about having a restricted tournament series. The main thing I see is that the Premier Series would need a ridiculous prize pool to make sure the best would commit to playing in it instead of hopping around the lesser events. Why ignore lesser events, if you can BOTH play in Premier Series and farm week-end tournaments (and online ones too!)? To make best commit to playing you need to have matches all day every day, especially during week-ends ala Proleague. That's only real way to make best commit, especially if they have funding to hop around lesser events. | ||
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zul
Germany5427 Posts
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