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On September 21 2013 04:28 Popkiller wrote:
MMA is winning games again, there is no problem.
:D
shoutout to xeris for including pathing as a culprit, if briefly.
edit: and I'm glad others are noting it too
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On September 22 2013 02:29 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 02:19 Xiphos wrote:On September 22 2013 02:13 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 22 2013 02:04 Xiphos wrote:
How to get rid of Deathball?
1. Alter Unit pathing
2. Introduce more harassment-oriented units (BW had Lurkers, higher Storm dmg, Reavers, faster Vulture firing rate, andWratih/Mutalisk micromanagement)
3. High ground advantage so the game become more positional-based to salvage units.
4. Higher AOE dmg, this forces splits, this also helps with the harass elements.
Pretty simplistic conceptual overhaul. Blizzard won't do them btw. 1. Maybe. 2. Calling lurkers harassment-oriented unit is cute, saying that vultures were better at harass than hellions is even more cute, air unit stacking in BW was a bug, that accidentally worked out, probably Flash blessing. 3. So you can never go up ramp without ridiculous advantage? Only aspect of the game i never liked in BW, that ridiculous impossibility to end the game right away, that usually was losing you won game. 4. It's not like worker lines already evaporate in SC2 if you lose attention for a little bit. Blizzard won't do 'em for the same reason they won't do SC:BW HD: nobody will give a ****. 1. Read the recent thread. 2. Lurkers are much more effective than Bling and Swarmhosts. Perpetual effect and immediate burst (basically its a combo of Bling and SH), Vultures does have higher DPS as shown by Falling that it have higher firing rates, cute indeed. Even though a bug but still part of the game which SC2 don't have, something to improve on. 3. Audiences loves it, give you more things to do. When you are ahead, games aren't suppose to end right there, you have to fight to keep it and get further ahead. Lazy-syndrome right there. 4. Happens more frequently in BW. It is much more of a distraction so the opponent is forced to split their main force to deal with harass and thus breaking the deathball. Explicitly said that they won't. They don't give a shit about the game . 1. Did read, hence 'Maybe'. 2. You told harassment, as general positional unit they are greater than both banelings and SHs in SC:BW's case, nobody knows about SC2's case though. Vultures have greater single target DPS, but overkill and do not splash, so as harassment they are slightly inferior to hellions IMO. Also, you know there is something wrong with original game, if it's bug is considered great thing for the game. 3. When ahead, get more ahead is just a way to draw out game, pretty boring if you ask me, but i am no audience, so whatever. 4. Tbh BW terran games left a lack of harass feeling. Blizzard is free to do what they want, they need money after all. I just happen to like SC2, while having a strange feeling about BW.
2. Even though vultures don't have regular splash attack. They can easily place a couple of mine at chock to cease any form of defensive movement by the opponent to either have a field day with the workers or buy them more time to exit/wreak havoc, this creates more tactical decisions. And there were plenty of awesome tricks discovered in SC2 but yet Blizzard end up eliminating them.
3. High ground advantage obviously allows for more case of comeback than not so ofc the audience will be emotionally attach for one to occur.
4. Then you obviously haven't watch enough BW games. Watch top dogs like Leta, Fantasy, Baby, and Hiya. There are two school of thought in Terran. That's the beauty of the game, you can win with either style.
Ofc, if they want to ignore everything from past RTS experience, its up to them.
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On September 21 2013 03:40 Xeris wrote:
One of the biggest problems (game play) is unsolvable. HoTS is definitely a better game than WoL, but the inherent aspects of the game engine can't be overcome by balance or new units, I fear Brood War will always be more exciting to watch than StarCraft 2.
I strongly disagree.
HoTS is more balanced than WOL ever was, this is true. But so is Pong. And Pong is boring to both watch and play. As is HoTS. WoL was a better game, because it was more fun.
In an effort to achieve balance, Blizzard destroyed variety in SC2. They shrunk down the number of viable strategies to the point where there is relatively few per matchup. Few viable strategies has made the game simpler, which in turn easy to balance. Just like Pong. Every TvZ I watch is similar. 4M versus Ling/Bane/Muta. Every TvP looks similar to any given macro game in 2011, because Terran pretty much has to macro now that the MSC is on the field.
And playing the game is utterly boring now too. When I used to que up on ladder (mid/high masters) sometime in 2011, I had no idea what was coming, no matter what race I was up against. If it was Terran, it could be a CC first, it could be any variation of 1-1-1, it could be 2 rax pressure expand, ect... There were so many viable strategies, that Starcraft II was what you made it. With enough effort, you could take any playstyle to the top, from cannon rushing to macro play. That made the game exciting, I had so much to learn. But now, I just need to learn a few builds and do them solidly. That makes it easy, but unfortunately my mechanics, and everyone mechanics have a limit, and then you are stuck. You can't be inventive, you can't make the game what you want it to be. For instance, Terran can't just invent new timings to kill Protoss early like they could in WOL, because the MSC is just too strong against any early attack.
Many of the units in HOTS have added a significant amount to the defensive capability of each race (Widow Mine, Swarmhosts, Vipers, MSC) making expanding (at the top) no longer a choice, but a requirement.
Today, SC2 isn't what you make it. It is what Blizzard tells you it is. It is no longer much of a "strategy" game, it is an advanced version of rock-paper-scissors, where you can scout what the other guy is doing, and one where if you can deploy your choice faster and more efficiently than the other guy, sometimes you'll win no matter what.
It isn't fun for me anymore. It used to be a real achievement to pull off a fast expand in the face of pressure. It really made you feel like you were skilled, because it could be difficult, especially in PvP. Today, I just I press F and my MSC pulls it off for me...
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On September 22 2013 02:37 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 02:33 StarStruck wrote:
Considering the type of team formats some people are trying to pull off *cough.* Sometimes those 1 or 2 players can carry you quite far. *cough* TaeJa *cough*
ha ha ha. Don't let me get carried away and look this isn't just about Team Leagues like the ATC and whatever EG's calling their tournament nowadays, but it can go back to the Korean Leagues as well with the Winners League/All-Kill Format. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind the All-Kill from time to time but when your format relies on it? I can tolerate a few rounds of it in PL, but when you allow a player who lost to play more than once or allow a player to hard carry a team? Not so fly for me anyway.
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On September 22 2013 01:32 Destructicon wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 22 2013 01:23 renkin wrote:
About the boringness of games :
Wasn't this to be expected from any heavyly mediatized game ?
As soon as a powerfull strategy emerges it is countered in the following weeks, build orders are upgraded and everything goes back to the same strats, would that be SC2 or BW.
It's a poor motivation as a player : should I spend time working on a strategy for months that is going to be destroyed anyway ?
The fact that the same units can be the answer to everything is crippling the game.
We are stuck in a strong, unbreakable environment that regulates itself from any deviation and formats players to an unique, all around style
It's here for so long and in the same form that we boringly accept this state of things. Picture yourself explaining to a noob that his mass thor strat isn't working ? "MMM is what you should do all the time, it's better than everything else... that's how it is ! " Shouldn't he learn what counters what instead ?
What could Blizzard do ?
Blizzard is playing a double, opposite role in this.
First, they created this environment and obviously want to keep its stability. We saw them nerf many times units that are the core of powerfull strats.
Second, they are aware of this stale situation and they try to shake the state of things without destroying the environment : buff to undersued units, map changes and last but not least, new expansion units.
Many hoped for a way better game, but in the end the boringness came back.
To adress the boringness problem, Blizzard would need to change gameplay mechanics to break the environment and find a new stability. However since they created this environment I can't picture them destroying it and doing another.
Wasn't the original design idea for sc2 was a "unit X counters Y which counters Z which counters X" ?
That could actually be a viable design that would break the current environment, if applied seriously. You are right in that there is staleness in the game at some points, but that doesn't stem at all from the counters, its just from the way the engine and pathing and fighting works. For reference I'd read http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=429573But in short, the problem is that a lot of the fights is mostly posturing and searching for a favorable position, once that is achieved and a fight starts, there is very little micro that can occur, because the fights are so fast and everything dies so easily. Now if the fights could be slowed down and if more interactivity existed withing fights, being able to bait units and kill them off, back and forth action in fights, focus fire, repositioning and re posturing within fights, all designed to maximize damage, then the game would be way more exciting because, even if someone could say, player A could create the theoretical perfect composition to kill player B's composition, if player B just has better battle micro overall and can still win, then that adds a ton more excitement. You now have the fun of watching someone reach his perfect composition but now you have to see if he also has the skill to control it.
Ah yes that was an awesome read and should be obligatory.
I wonder what the senior BW programmer still working on the sc2 team would say about it.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 22 2013 02:40 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 02:29 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 22 2013 02:19 Xiphos wrote:On September 22 2013 02:13 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 22 2013 02:04 Xiphos wrote:
How to get rid of Deathball?
1. Alter Unit pathing
2. Introduce more harassment-oriented units (BW had Lurkers, higher Storm dmg, Reavers, faster Vulture firing rate, andWratih/Mutalisk micromanagement)
3. High ground advantage so the game become more positional-based to salvage units.
4. Higher AOE dmg, this forces splits, this also helps with the harass elements.
Pretty simplistic conceptual overhaul. Blizzard won't do them btw. 1. Maybe. 2. Calling lurkers harassment-oriented unit is cute, saying that vultures were better at harass than hellions is even more cute, air unit stacking in BW was a bug, that accidentally worked out, probably Flash blessing. 3. So you can never go up ramp without ridiculous advantage? Only aspect of the game i never liked in BW, that ridiculous impossibility to end the game right away, that usually was losing you won game. 4. It's not like worker lines already evaporate in SC2 if you lose attention for a little bit. Blizzard won't do 'em for the same reason they won't do SC:BW HD: nobody will give a ****. 1. Read the recent thread. 2. Lurkers are much more effective than Bling and Swarmhosts. Perpetual effect and immediate burst (basically its a combo of Bling and SH), Vultures does have higher DPS as shown by Falling that it have higher firing rates, cute indeed. Even though a bug but still part of the game which SC2 don't have, something to improve on. 3. Audiences loves it, give you more things to do. When you are ahead, games aren't suppose to end right there, you have to fight to keep it and get further ahead. Lazy-syndrome right there. 4. Happens more frequently in BW. It is much more of a distraction so the opponent is forced to split their main force to deal with harass and thus breaking the deathball. Explicitly said that they won't. They don't give a shit about the game . 1. Did read, hence 'Maybe'. 2. You told harassment, as general positional unit they are greater than both banelings and SHs in SC:BW's case, nobody knows about SC2's case though. Vultures have greater single target DPS, but overkill and do not splash, so as harassment they are slightly inferior to hellions IMO. Also, you know there is something wrong with original game, if it's bug is considered great thing for the game. 3. When ahead, get more ahead is just a way to draw out game, pretty boring if you ask me, but i am no audience, so whatever. 4. Tbh BW terran games left a lack of harass feeling. Blizzard is free to do what they want, they need money after all. I just happen to like SC2, while having a strange feeling about BW. 2. Even though vultures don't have regular splash attack. They can easily place a couple of mine at chock to cease any form of defensive movement by the opponent to either have a field day with the workers or buy them more time to exit/wreak havoc, this creates more tactical decisions. And there were plenty of awesome tricks discovered in SC2 but yet Blizzard end up eliminating them. 3. High ground advantage obviously allows for more case of comeback than not so ofc the audience will be emotionally attach for one to occur. 4. Then you obviously haven't watch enough BW games. Watch top dogs like Leta, Fantasy, Baby, and Hiya. There are two school of thought in Terran. That's the beauty of the game, you can win with either style. Ofc, if they want to ignore everything from past RTS experience, its up to them.
2. True, granted the most awesome trick discovered within SC2 was tank stacking, and that's the thing i would not want in this game EVER.
3. Perhaps, but then when i see comeback i think to myself: loser must have thrown the game somewhere, let me see... oh wait, he attack into this choke/ramp/whatever. What a way to lose the game.
4. I did not watch nearly enough BW games, true that. For one i have only ever watched 1 TvP that was worst 15 minutes wasted in my life with T building up essentially deathball without ball and rolling over P in 1 push.
Their past RTS experience during creation of SC2 was WC3 and BW that was not really popular outside of Korea back then and when they were popular they were thriving on UMS scene, disregarding competitive play for the most part AFAIK.
On September 22 2013 02:53 renkin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 01:32 Destructicon wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 22 2013 01:23 renkin wrote:
About the boringness of games :
Wasn't this to be expected from any heavyly mediatized game ?
As soon as a powerfull strategy emerges it is countered in the following weeks, build orders are upgraded and everything goes back to the same strats, would that be SC2 or BW.
It's a poor motivation as a player : should I spend time working on a strategy for months that is going to be destroyed anyway ?
The fact that the same units can be the answer to everything is crippling the game.
We are stuck in a strong, unbreakable environment that regulates itself from any deviation and formats players to an unique, all around style
It's here for so long and in the same form that we boringly accept this state of things. Picture yourself explaining to a noob that his mass thor strat isn't working ? "MMM is what you should do all the time, it's better than everything else... that's how it is ! " Shouldn't he learn what counters what instead ?
What could Blizzard do ?
Blizzard is playing a double, opposite role in this.
First, they created this environment and obviously want to keep its stability. We saw them nerf many times units that are the core of powerfull strats.
Second, they are aware of this stale situation and they try to shake the state of things without destroying the environment : buff to undersued units, map changes and last but not least, new expansion units.
Many hoped for a way better game, but in the end the boringness came back.
To adress the boringness problem, Blizzard would need to change gameplay mechanics to break the environment and find a new stability. However since they created this environment I can't picture them destroying it and doing another.
Wasn't the original design idea for sc2 was a "unit X counters Y which counters Z which counters X" ?
That could actually be a viable design that would break the current environment, if applied seriously. You are right in that there is staleness in the game at some points, but that doesn't stem at all from the counters, its just from the way the engine and pathing and fighting works. For reference I'd read http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=429573But in short, the problem is that a lot of the fights is mostly posturing and searching for a favorable position, once that is achieved and a fight starts, there is very little micro that can occur, because the fights are so fast and everything dies so easily. Now if the fights could be slowed down and if more interactivity existed withing fights, being able to bait units and kill them off, back and forth action in fights, focus fire, repositioning and re posturing within fights, all designed to maximize damage, then the game would be way more exciting because, even if someone could say, player A could create the theoretical perfect composition to kill player B's composition, if player B just has better battle micro overall and can still win, then that adds a ton more excitement. You now have the fun of watching someone reach his perfect composition but now you have to see if he also has the skill to control it. Ah yes that was an awesome read and should be obligatory. I wonder what the senior BW programmer still working on the sc2 team would say about it.
Predicting his words: told you, you should have rushed this game out in 2 months.
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On September 22 2013 02:54 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 02:40 Xiphos wrote:On September 22 2013 02:29 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 22 2013 02:19 Xiphos wrote:On September 22 2013 02:13 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 22 2013 02:04 Xiphos wrote:
How to get rid of Deathball?
1. Alter Unit pathing
2. Introduce more harassment-oriented units (BW had Lurkers, higher Storm dmg, Reavers, faster Vulture firing rate, andWratih/Mutalisk micromanagement)
3. High ground advantage so the game become more positional-based to salvage units.
4. Higher AOE dmg, this forces splits, this also helps with the harass elements.
Pretty simplistic conceptual overhaul. Blizzard won't do them btw. 1. Maybe. 2. Calling lurkers harassment-oriented unit is cute, saying that vultures were better at harass than hellions is even more cute, air unit stacking in BW was a bug, that accidentally worked out, probably Flash blessing. 3. So you can never go up ramp without ridiculous advantage? Only aspect of the game i never liked in BW, that ridiculous impossibility to end the game right away, that usually was losing you won game. 4. It's not like worker lines already evaporate in SC2 if you lose attention for a little bit. Blizzard won't do 'em for the same reason they won't do SC:BW HD: nobody will give a ****. 1. Read the recent thread. 2. Lurkers are much more effective than Bling and Swarmhosts. Perpetual effect and immediate burst (basically its a combo of Bling and SH), Vultures does have higher DPS as shown by Falling that it have higher firing rates, cute indeed. Even though a bug but still part of the game which SC2 don't have, something to improve on. 3. Audiences loves it, give you more things to do. When you are ahead, games aren't suppose to end right there, you have to fight to keep it and get further ahead. Lazy-syndrome right there. 4. Happens more frequently in BW. It is much more of a distraction so the opponent is forced to split their main force to deal with harass and thus breaking the deathball. Explicitly said that they won't. They don't give a shit about the game . 1. Did read, hence 'Maybe'. 2. You told harassment, as general positional unit they are greater than both banelings and SHs in SC:BW's case, nobody knows about SC2's case though. Vultures have greater single target DPS, but overkill and do not splash, so as harassment they are slightly inferior to hellions IMO. Also, you know there is something wrong with original game, if it's bug is considered great thing for the game. 3. When ahead, get more ahead is just a way to draw out game, pretty boring if you ask me, but i am no audience, so whatever. 4. Tbh BW terran games left a lack of harass feeling. Blizzard is free to do what they want, they need money after all. I just happen to like SC2, while having a strange feeling about BW. 2. Even though vultures don't have regular splash attack. They can easily place a couple of mine at chock to cease any form of defensive movement by the opponent to either have a field day with the workers or buy them more time to exit/wreak havoc, this creates more tactical decisions. And there were plenty of awesome tricks discovered in SC2 but yet Blizzard end up eliminating them. 3. High ground advantage obviously allows for more case of comeback than not so ofc the audience will be emotionally attach for one to occur. 4. Then you obviously haven't watch enough BW games. Watch top dogs like Leta, Fantasy, Baby, and Hiya. There are two school of thought in Terran. That's the beauty of the game, you can win with either style. Ofc, if they want to ignore everything from past RTS experience, its up to them. 2. True, granted the most awesome trick discovered within SC2 was tank stacking, and that's the thing i would not want in this game EVER. 3. Perhaps, but then when i see comeback i think to myself: loser must have thrown the game somewhere, let me see... oh wait, he attack into this choke/ramp/whatever. What a way to lose the game. 4. I did not watch nearly enough BW games, true that. For one i have only ever watched 1 TvP that was worst 15 minutes wasted in my life with T building up essentially deathball without ball and rolling over P in 1 push. Their past RTS experience during creation of SC2 was WC3 and BW that was not really popular outside of Korea back then and when they were popular they were thriving on UMS scene, disregarding competitive play for the most part AFAIK.
2. Statistically speaking, SC2 Tanks needs to bring that back in order to even compete with their BW counterpart.
3. But also high ground also provides you with many offensive tactics. There are many cases where the high ground supports the containment so it works as a double edge sword (map dependent).
4. Yeah keep on watching. That game, P just failed to expand heavily when T turtles.
I'm not sure where do you get this but during my middle school and to a larger extend, high school time here in Canada, there were pretty much only 4 games that we played in our school breaks. Quake, CS, BW, and WC3. People were MASSIVELY interested in RTS genre, we even have small in school tournaments for them. And it is generally noted that in order to create a sequel to a game, it is wise to examine the strength of the previous title and amplify upon it.
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On September 22 2013 02:04 Xiphos wrote:
How to get rid of Deathball?
1. Alter Unit pathing
2. Introduce more harassment-oriented units (BW had Lurkers, higher Storm dmg, Reavers, faster Vulture firing rate, andWratih/Mutalisk micromanagement)
3. High ground advantage so the game become more positional-based to salvage units.
4. Higher AOE dmg, this forces splits, this also helps with the harass elements.
Pretty simplistic conceptual overhaul. Blizzard won't do them btw.
Oh yeah get rid of all macro mechanics, it builds army way too fast. Why harass when I get there, the base will be heavily defended? Better to build my own ball of death, its far more efficient.
I don't see deathball in TvZ
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On September 22 2013 01:23 renkin wrote:
About the boringness of games :
Wasn't this to be expected from any heavyly mediatized game ?
As soon as a powerfull strategy emerges it is countered in the following weeks, build orders are upgraded and everything goes back to the same strats, would that be SC2 or BW.
It's a poor motivation as a player : should I spend time working on a strategy for months that is going to be destroyed anyway ?
The fact that the same units can be the answer to everything is crippling the game.
We are stuck in a strong, unbreakable environment that regulates itself from any deviation and formats players to an unique, all around style
It's here for so long and in the same form that we boringly accept this state of things. Picture yourself explaining to a noob that his mass thor strat isn't working ? "MMM is what you should do all the time, it's better than everything else... that's how it is ! " Shouldn't he learn what counters what instead ?
What could Blizzard do ?
Blizzard is playing a double, opposite role in this.
First, they created this environment and obviously want to keep its stability. We saw them nerf many times units that are the core of powerfull strats.
Second, they are aware of this stale situation and they try to shake the state of things without destroying the environment : buff to undersued units, map changes and last but not least, new expansion units.
Many hoped for a way better game, but in the end the boringness came back.
To adress the boringness problem, Blizzard would need to change gameplay mechanics to break the environment and find a new stability. However since they created this environment I can't picture them destroying it and doing another.
Wasn't the original design idea for sc2 was a "unit X counters Y which counters Z which counters X" ?
That could actually be a viable design that would break the current environment, if applied seriously.
Ever since the Queen patch Blizzard has stated they were going to be much more cautious and give the metagame ample opportunity to develop before they intervened. Unless you have a grudge, this is not the case anymore. The patches are very infrequent, and the changes are much more minor than they were before.
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+ Show Spoiler +On September 22 2013 02:40 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2013 03:40 Xeris wrote:
One of the biggest problems (game play) is unsolvable. HoTS is definitely a better game than WoL, but the inherent aspects of the game engine can't be overcome by balance or new units, I fear Brood War will always be more exciting to watch than StarCraft 2. I strongly disagree. HoTS is more balanced than WOL ever was, this is true. But so is Pong. And Pong is boring to both watch and play. As is HoTS. WoL was a better game, because it was more fun. In an effort to achieve balance, Blizzard destroyed variety in SC2. They shrunk down the number of viable strategies to the point where there is relatively few per matchup. Few viable strategies has made the game simpler, which in turn easy to balance. Just like Pong. Every TvZ I watch is similar. 4M versus Ling/Bane/Muta. Every TvP looks similar to any given macro game in 2011, because Terran pretty much has to macro now that the MSC is on the field. And playing the game is utterly boring now too. When I used to que up on ladder (mid/high masters) sometime in 2011, I had no idea what was coming, no matter what race I was up against. If it was Terran, it could be a CC first, it could be any variation of 1-1-1, it could be 2 rax pressure expand, ect... There were so many viable strategies, that Starcraft II was what you made it. With enough effort, you could take any playstyle to the top, from cannon rushing to macro play. That made the game exciting, I had so much to learn. But now, I just need to learn a few builds and do them solidly. That makes it easy, but unfortunately my mechanics, and everyone mechanics have a limit, and then you are stuck. You can't be inventive, you can't make the game what you want it to be. For instance, Terran can't just invent new timings to kill Protoss early like they could in WOL, because the MSC is just too strong against any early attack. Many of the units in HOTS have added a significant amount to the defensive capability of each race (Widow Mine, Swarmhosts, Vipers, MSC) making expanding (at the top) no longer a choice, but a requirement. Today, SC2 isn't what you make it. It is what Blizzard tells you it is. It is no longer much of a "strategy" game, it is an advanced version of rock-paper-scissors, where you can scout what the other guy is doing, and one where if you can deploy your choice faster and more efficiently than the other guy, sometimes you'll win no matter what. It isn't fun for me anymore. It used to be a real achievement to pull off a fast expand in the face of pressure. It really made you feel like you were skilled, because it could be difficult, especially in PvP. Today, I just I press F and my MSC pulls it off for me...
I really agree with this post, as someone who played quite a lot in 2010/2011 but dropped off to play Dota. Initially the reaction to bigger maps was positive, because people felt like cheese and 1 base play were very random and unskilled and I also somewhat agreed with this sentiment. But bigger maps + balance changes + eventual HotS changes have stagnated this game. I remember trying out some of the recently added maps, and being shocked that the new snow map basically had a free 2x2 box to put an overlord right over your opponents natural. In 2010 I didn't even send my overlord to the natural, but rather near the main so I could see what kind of cheese he was doing. If I didn't sac a ling every 2 minutes I was probably dead. Now you see players taking 3 bases without having even seen an enemy unit.
The people actually still playing can't really do much but emulate these more boring styles due to maps and changes. So then you have, at the skill below mid master, so like 98% of players, turn into "SC2 macro challenge" where you sit on 3 bases for a while and then a-move. Oops, forgot some upgrade? Guess you lost this one bub. When you have game guides that instruct you to "macro instead of looking at your army", you know, the fun part of the game, you know there are some issues.
Does it mean the better player always wins at the pro level? Maybe. Does it make the game more interesting? Not really I'd say.
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On September 22 2013 03:06 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 02:04 Xiphos wrote:
How to get rid of Deathball?
1. Alter Unit pathing
2. Introduce more harassment-oriented units (BW had Lurkers, higher Storm dmg, Reavers, faster Vulture firing rate, andWratih/Mutalisk micromanagement)
3. High ground advantage so the game become more positional-based to salvage units.
4. Higher AOE dmg, this forces splits, this also helps with the harass elements.
Pretty simplistic conceptual overhaul. Blizzard won't do them btw.
Oh yeah get rid of all macro mechanics, it builds army way too fast. Why harass when I get there, the base will be heavily defended? Better to build my own ball of death, its far more efficient. I don't see deathball in TvZ
I see a lot of short battles tho.
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On September 22 2013 03:13 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 03:06 Incognoto wrote:On September 22 2013 02:04 Xiphos wrote:
How to get rid of Deathball?
1. Alter Unit pathing
2. Introduce more harassment-oriented units (BW had Lurkers, higher Storm dmg, Reavers, faster Vulture firing rate, andWratih/Mutalisk micromanagement)
3. High ground advantage so the game become more positional-based to salvage units.
4. Higher AOE dmg, this forces splits, this also helps with the harass elements.
Pretty simplistic conceptual overhaul. Blizzard won't do them btw.
Oh yeah get rid of all macro mechanics, it builds army way too fast. Why harass when I get there, the base will be heavily defended? Better to build my own ball of death, its far more efficient. I don't see deathball in TvZ I see a lot of short battles tho.
You see short battles but you see a lot of them, because Terran and Zerg have huge production capacities. TvZ has always arguably been the best match-up to spectate for this reason. It's fast paced with a lot of action -- the antonym of actual deathball match-ups which is usually anything with a Protoss in it.
edit:
On September 22 2013 02:40 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2013 03:40 Xeris wrote:
One of the biggest problems (game play) is unsolvable. HoTS is definitely a better game than WoL, but the inherent aspects of the game engine can't be overcome by balance or new units, I fear Brood War will always be more exciting to watch than StarCraft 2. And playing the game is utterly boring now too. When I used to que up on ladder (mid/high masters) sometime in 2011, I had no idea what was coming, no matter what race I was up against. If it was Terran, it could be a CC first, it could be any variation of 1-1-1, it could be 2 rax pressure expand, ect... There were so many viable strategies, that Starcraft II was what you made it. With enough effort, you could take any playstyle to the top, from cannon rushing to macro play. That made the game exciting, I had so much to learn. But now, I just need to learn a few builds and do them solidly. That makes it easy, but unfortunately my mechanics, and everyone mechanics have a limit, and then you are stuck. You can't be inventive, you can't make the game what you want it to be. For instance, Terran can't just invent new timings to kill Protoss early like they could in WOL, because the MSC is just too strong against any early attack.
Not sure which metagame you were playing in 2011 but towards the latter end of the year, 2 rax pressure was pretty much dead, and after the summer of the 1-1-1, the all-in variant was virtually solved and slowly fell off from the ladder. Like, 80% of openers from Terran in any match-up was the exact same 1 rax fe.
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On September 22 2013 03:16 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 03:13 Xiphos wrote:On September 22 2013 03:06 Incognoto wrote:On September 22 2013 02:04 Xiphos wrote:
How to get rid of Deathball?
1. Alter Unit pathing
2. Introduce more harassment-oriented units (BW had Lurkers, higher Storm dmg, Reavers, faster Vulture firing rate, andWratih/Mutalisk micromanagement)
3. High ground advantage so the game become more positional-based to salvage units.
4. Higher AOE dmg, this forces splits, this also helps with the harass elements.
Pretty simplistic conceptual overhaul. Blizzard won't do them btw.
Oh yeah get rid of all macro mechanics, it builds army way too fast. Why harass when I get there, the base will be heavily defended? Better to build my own ball of death, its far more efficient. I don't see deathball in TvZ I see a lot of short battles tho. You see short battles but you see a lot of them, because Terran and Zerg have huge production capacities. TvZ has always arguably been the best match-up to spectate for this reason. It's fast paced with a lot of action -- the antonym of actual deathball match-ups which is usually anything with a Protoss in it.
Then I guess we have to refer to this in seeing TvZ's flaws: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=427728
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 22 2013 03:03 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 02:54 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 22 2013 02:40 Xiphos wrote:On September 22 2013 02:29 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 22 2013 02:19 Xiphos wrote:On September 22 2013 02:13 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 22 2013 02:04 Xiphos wrote:
How to get rid of Deathball?
1. Alter Unit pathing
2. Introduce more harassment-oriented units (BW had Lurkers, higher Storm dmg, Reavers, faster Vulture firing rate, andWratih/Mutalisk micromanagement)
3. High ground advantage so the game become more positional-based to salvage units.
4. Higher AOE dmg, this forces splits, this also helps with the harass elements.
Pretty simplistic conceptual overhaul. Blizzard won't do them btw. 1. Maybe. 2. Calling lurkers harassment-oriented unit is cute, saying that vultures were better at harass than hellions is even more cute, air unit stacking in BW was a bug, that accidentally worked out, probably Flash blessing. 3. So you can never go up ramp without ridiculous advantage? Only aspect of the game i never liked in BW, that ridiculous impossibility to end the game right away, that usually was losing you won game. 4. It's not like worker lines already evaporate in SC2 if you lose attention for a little bit. Blizzard won't do 'em for the same reason they won't do SC:BW HD: nobody will give a ****. 1. Read the recent thread. 2. Lurkers are much more effective than Bling and Swarmhosts. Perpetual effect and immediate burst (basically its a combo of Bling and SH), Vultures does have higher DPS as shown by Falling that it have higher firing rates, cute indeed. Even though a bug but still part of the game which SC2 don't have, something to improve on. 3. Audiences loves it, give you more things to do. When you are ahead, games aren't suppose to end right there, you have to fight to keep it and get further ahead. Lazy-syndrome right there. 4. Happens more frequently in BW. It is much more of a distraction so the opponent is forced to split their main force to deal with harass and thus breaking the deathball. Explicitly said that they won't. They don't give a shit about the game . 1. Did read, hence 'Maybe'. 2. You told harassment, as general positional unit they are greater than both banelings and SHs in SC:BW's case, nobody knows about SC2's case though. Vultures have greater single target DPS, but overkill and do not splash, so as harassment they are slightly inferior to hellions IMO. Also, you know there is something wrong with original game, if it's bug is considered great thing for the game. 3. When ahead, get more ahead is just a way to draw out game, pretty boring if you ask me, but i am no audience, so whatever. 4. Tbh BW terran games left a lack of harass feeling. Blizzard is free to do what they want, they need money after all. I just happen to like SC2, while having a strange feeling about BW. 2. Even though vultures don't have regular splash attack. They can easily place a couple of mine at chock to cease any form of defensive movement by the opponent to either have a field day with the workers or buy them more time to exit/wreak havoc, this creates more tactical decisions. And there were plenty of awesome tricks discovered in SC2 but yet Blizzard end up eliminating them. 3. High ground advantage obviously allows for more case of comeback than not so ofc the audience will be emotionally attach for one to occur. 4. Then you obviously haven't watch enough BW games. Watch top dogs like Leta, Fantasy, Baby, and Hiya. There are two school of thought in Terran. That's the beauty of the game, you can win with either style. Ofc, if they want to ignore everything from past RTS experience, its up to them. 2. True, granted the most awesome trick discovered within SC2 was tank stacking, and that's the thing i would not want in this game EVER. 3. Perhaps, but then when i see comeback i think to myself: loser must have thrown the game somewhere, let me see... oh wait, he attack into this choke/ramp/whatever. What a way to lose the game. 4. I did not watch nearly enough BW games, true that. For one i have only ever watched 1 TvP that was worst 15 minutes wasted in my life with T building up essentially deathball without ball and rolling over P in 1 push. Their past RTS experience during creation of SC2 was WC3 and BW that was not really popular outside of Korea back then and when they were popular they were thriving on UMS scene, disregarding competitive play for the most part AFAIK. 2. Statistically speaking, SC2 Tanks needs to bring that back in order to even compete with their BW counterpart. 3. But also high ground also provides you with many offensive tactics. There are many cases where the high ground supports the containment so it works as a double edge sword (map dependent). 4. Yeah keep on watching. That game, P just failed to expand heavily when T turtles. I'm not sure where do you get this but during my middle school and to a larger extend, high school time here in Canada, there were pretty much only 4 games that we played in our school breaks. Quake, CS, BW, and WC3. People were MASSIVELY interested in RTS genre, we even have small in school tournaments for them. And it is generally noted that in order to create a sequel to a game, it is wise to examine the strength of the previous title and amplify upon it.
2. Do not be so sure about that, immortals would still destroy 'em :D
3. Key word map dependant.
4. From the top of my memory it was 6+ base P against 3-4 base T (one of bases for T min only IIRC). If that is not expanding heavily enough, i do not know what is: 7 base against 3 base for close game (referencing Bogus vs Neo.G_Soulkey on Ground Zero)? Blah.
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On September 22 2013 03:16 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 03:13 Xiphos wrote:On September 22 2013 03:06 Incognoto wrote:On September 22 2013 02:04 Xiphos wrote:
How to get rid of Deathball?
1. Alter Unit pathing
2. Introduce more harassment-oriented units (BW had Lurkers, higher Storm dmg, Reavers, faster Vulture firing rate, andWratih/Mutalisk micromanagement)
3. High ground advantage so the game become more positional-based to salvage units.
4. Higher AOE dmg, this forces splits, this also helps with the harass elements.
Pretty simplistic conceptual overhaul. Blizzard won't do them btw.
Oh yeah get rid of all macro mechanics, it builds army way too fast. Why harass when I get there, the base will be heavily defended? Better to build my own ball of death, its far more efficient. I don't see deathball in TvZ I see a lot of short battles tho. You see short battles but you see a lot of them, because Terran and Zerg have huge production capacities. TvZ has always arguably been the best match-up to spectate for this reason. It's fast paced with a lot of action -- the antonym of actual deathball match-ups which is usually anything with a Protoss in it. edit: Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 02:40 BronzeKnee wrote:On September 21 2013 03:40 Xeris wrote:
One of the biggest problems (game play) is unsolvable. HoTS is definitely a better game than WoL, but the inherent aspects of the game engine can't be overcome by balance or new units, I fear Brood War will always be more exciting to watch than StarCraft 2. And playing the game is utterly boring now too. When I used to que up on ladder (mid/high masters) sometime in 2011, I had no idea what was coming, no matter what race I was up against. If it was Terran, it could be a CC first, it could be any variation of 1-1-1, it could be 2 rax pressure expand, ect... There were so many viable strategies, that Starcraft II was what you made it. With enough effort, you could take any playstyle to the top, from cannon rushing to macro play. That made the game exciting, I had so much to learn. But now, I just need to learn a few builds and do them solidly. That makes it easy, but unfortunately my mechanics, and everyone mechanics have a limit, and then you are stuck. You can't be inventive, you can't make the game what you want it to be. For instance, Terran can't just invent new timings to kill Protoss early like they could in WOL, because the MSC is just too strong against any early attack. Not sure which metagame you were playing in 2011 but towards the latter end of the year, 2 rax pressure was pretty much dead, and after the summer of the 1-1-1, the all-in variant was virtually solved and slowly fell off from the ladder. Like, 80% of openers from Terran in any match-up was the exact same 1 rax fe.
I would say that Protoss needs a revamp more than anything. Then work from there.
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On September 22 2013 03:21 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 03:16 rd wrote:On September 22 2013 03:13 Xiphos wrote:On September 22 2013 03:06 Incognoto wrote:On September 22 2013 02:04 Xiphos wrote:
How to get rid of Deathball?
1. Alter Unit pathing
2. Introduce more harassment-oriented units (BW had Lurkers, higher Storm dmg, Reavers, faster Vulture firing rate, andWratih/Mutalisk micromanagement)
3. High ground advantage so the game become more positional-based to salvage units.
4. Higher AOE dmg, this forces splits, this also helps with the harass elements.
Pretty simplistic conceptual overhaul. Blizzard won't do them btw.
Oh yeah get rid of all macro mechanics, it builds army way too fast. Why harass when I get there, the base will be heavily defended? Better to build my own ball of death, its far more efficient. I don't see deathball in TvZ I see a lot of short battles tho. You see short battles but you see a lot of them, because Terran and Zerg have huge production capacities. TvZ has always arguably been the best match-up to spectate for this reason. It's fast paced with a lot of action -- the antonym of actual deathball match-ups which is usually anything with a Protoss in it. Then I guess we have to refer to this in seeing TvZ's flaws: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=427728
That's an entirely different flaw than what you were referring to.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 22 2013 03:22 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 03:16 rd wrote:On September 22 2013 03:13 Xiphos wrote:On September 22 2013 03:06 Incognoto wrote:On September 22 2013 02:04 Xiphos wrote:
How to get rid of Deathball?
1. Alter Unit pathing
2. Introduce more harassment-oriented units (BW had Lurkers, higher Storm dmg, Reavers, faster Vulture firing rate, andWratih/Mutalisk micromanagement)
3. High ground advantage so the game become more positional-based to salvage units.
4. Higher AOE dmg, this forces splits, this also helps with the harass elements.
Pretty simplistic conceptual overhaul. Blizzard won't do them btw.
Oh yeah get rid of all macro mechanics, it builds army way too fast. Why harass when I get there, the base will be heavily defended? Better to build my own ball of death, its far more efficient. I don't see deathball in TvZ I see a lot of short battles tho. You see short battles but you see a lot of them, because Terran and Zerg have huge production capacities. TvZ has always arguably been the best match-up to spectate for this reason. It's fast paced with a lot of action -- the antonym of actual deathball match-ups which is usually anything with a Protoss in it. edit: On September 22 2013 02:40 BronzeKnee wrote:On September 21 2013 03:40 Xeris wrote:
One of the biggest problems (game play) is unsolvable. HoTS is definitely a better game than WoL, but the inherent aspects of the game engine can't be overcome by balance or new units, I fear Brood War will always be more exciting to watch than StarCraft 2. And playing the game is utterly boring now too. When I used to que up on ladder (mid/high masters) sometime in 2011, I had no idea what was coming, no matter what race I was up against. If it was Terran, it could be a CC first, it could be any variation of 1-1-1, it could be 2 rax pressure expand, ect... There were so many viable strategies, that Starcraft II was what you made it. With enough effort, you could take any playstyle to the top, from cannon rushing to macro play. That made the game exciting, I had so much to learn. But now, I just need to learn a few builds and do them solidly. That makes it easy, but unfortunately my mechanics, and everyone mechanics have a limit, and then you are stuck. You can't be inventive, you can't make the game what you want it to be. For instance, Terran can't just invent new timings to kill Protoss early like they could in WOL, because the MSC is just too strong against any early attack. Not sure which metagame you were playing in 2011 but towards the latter end of the year, 2 rax pressure was pretty much dead, and after the summer of the 1-1-1, the all-in variant was virtually solved and slowly fell off from the ladder. Like, 80% of openers from Terran in any match-up was the exact same 1 rax fe. I would say that Protoss needs a revamp more than anything. Then work from there.
I dare to bet that Terran needs more variety in styles first, before we are talking revamp of toss (not implying toss is well designed)
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On September 22 2013 03:25 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 03:22 Incognoto wrote:On September 22 2013 03:16 rd wrote:On September 22 2013 03:13 Xiphos wrote:On September 22 2013 03:06 Incognoto wrote:On September 22 2013 02:04 Xiphos wrote:
How to get rid of Deathball?
1. Alter Unit pathing
2. Introduce more harassment-oriented units (BW had Lurkers, higher Storm dmg, Reavers, faster Vulture firing rate, andWratih/Mutalisk micromanagement)
3. High ground advantage so the game become more positional-based to salvage units.
4. Higher AOE dmg, this forces splits, this also helps with the harass elements.
Pretty simplistic conceptual overhaul. Blizzard won't do them btw.
Oh yeah get rid of all macro mechanics, it builds army way too fast. Why harass when I get there, the base will be heavily defended? Better to build my own ball of death, its far more efficient. I don't see deathball in TvZ I see a lot of short battles tho. You see short battles but you see a lot of them, because Terran and Zerg have huge production capacities. TvZ has always arguably been the best match-up to spectate for this reason. It's fast paced with a lot of action -- the antonym of actual deathball match-ups which is usually anything with a Protoss in it. edit: On September 22 2013 02:40 BronzeKnee wrote:On September 21 2013 03:40 Xeris wrote:
One of the biggest problems (game play) is unsolvable. HoTS is definitely a better game than WoL, but the inherent aspects of the game engine can't be overcome by balance or new units, I fear Brood War will always be more exciting to watch than StarCraft 2. And playing the game is utterly boring now too. When I used to que up on ladder (mid/high masters) sometime in 2011, I had no idea what was coming, no matter what race I was up against. If it was Terran, it could be a CC first, it could be any variation of 1-1-1, it could be 2 rax pressure expand, ect... There were so many viable strategies, that Starcraft II was what you made it. With enough effort, you could take any playstyle to the top, from cannon rushing to macro play. That made the game exciting, I had so much to learn. But now, I just need to learn a few builds and do them solidly. That makes it easy, but unfortunately my mechanics, and everyone mechanics have a limit, and then you are stuck. You can't be inventive, you can't make the game what you want it to be. For instance, Terran can't just invent new timings to kill Protoss early like they could in WOL, because the MSC is just too strong against any early attack. Not sure which metagame you were playing in 2011 but towards the latter end of the year, 2 rax pressure was pretty much dead, and after the summer of the 1-1-1, the all-in variant was virtually solved and slowly fell off from the ladder. Like, 80% of openers from Terran in any match-up was the exact same 1 rax fe. I would say that Protoss needs a revamp more than anything. Then work from there. I dare to bet that Terran needs more variety in styles first, before we are talking revamp of toss (not implying toss is well designed)
A revamp of Toss might provide Terran the opportunity to play with more variety (mech).
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 22 2013 03:27 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 03:25 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 22 2013 03:22 Incognoto wrote:On September 22 2013 03:16 rd wrote:On September 22 2013 03:13 Xiphos wrote:On September 22 2013 03:06 Incognoto wrote:On September 22 2013 02:04 Xiphos wrote:
How to get rid of Deathball?
1. Alter Unit pathing
2. Introduce more harassment-oriented units (BW had Lurkers, higher Storm dmg, Reavers, faster Vulture firing rate, andWratih/Mutalisk micromanagement)
3. High ground advantage so the game become more positional-based to salvage units.
4. Higher AOE dmg, this forces splits, this also helps with the harass elements.
Pretty simplistic conceptual overhaul. Blizzard won't do them btw.
Oh yeah get rid of all macro mechanics, it builds army way too fast. Why harass when I get there, the base will be heavily defended? Better to build my own ball of death, its far more efficient. I don't see deathball in TvZ I see a lot of short battles tho. You see short battles but you see a lot of them, because Terran and Zerg have huge production capacities. TvZ has always arguably been the best match-up to spectate for this reason. It's fast paced with a lot of action -- the antonym of actual deathball match-ups which is usually anything with a Protoss in it. edit: On September 22 2013 02:40 BronzeKnee wrote:On September 21 2013 03:40 Xeris wrote:
One of the biggest problems (game play) is unsolvable. HoTS is definitely a better game than WoL, but the inherent aspects of the game engine can't be overcome by balance or new units, I fear Brood War will always be more exciting to watch than StarCraft 2. And playing the game is utterly boring now too. When I used to que up on ladder (mid/high masters) sometime in 2011, I had no idea what was coming, no matter what race I was up against. If it was Terran, it could be a CC first, it could be any variation of 1-1-1, it could be 2 rax pressure expand, ect... There were so many viable strategies, that Starcraft II was what you made it. With enough effort, you could take any playstyle to the top, from cannon rushing to macro play. That made the game exciting, I had so much to learn. But now, I just need to learn a few builds and do them solidly. That makes it easy, but unfortunately my mechanics, and everyone mechanics have a limit, and then you are stuck. You can't be inventive, you can't make the game what you want it to be. For instance, Terran can't just invent new timings to kill Protoss early like they could in WOL, because the MSC is just too strong against any early attack. Not sure which metagame you were playing in 2011 but towards the latter end of the year, 2 rax pressure was pretty much dead, and after the summer of the 1-1-1, the all-in variant was virtually solved and slowly fell off from the ladder. Like, 80% of openers from Terran in any match-up was the exact same 1 rax fe. I would say that Protoss needs a revamp more than anything. Then work from there. I dare to bet that Terran needs more variety in styles first, before we are talking revamp of toss (not implying toss is well designed) A revamp of Toss might provide Terran the opportunity to play with more variety (mech).
Only in TvP. Revamp of toss will not affect Terran's mech outside of TvP.
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On September 22 2013 03:28 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 03:27 rd wrote:On September 22 2013 03:25 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 22 2013 03:22 Incognoto wrote:On September 22 2013 03:16 rd wrote:On September 22 2013 03:13 Xiphos wrote:On September 22 2013 03:06 Incognoto wrote:On September 22 2013 02:04 Xiphos wrote:
How to get rid of Deathball?
1. Alter Unit pathing
2. Introduce more harassment-oriented units (BW had Lurkers, higher Storm dmg, Reavers, faster Vulture firing rate, andWratih/Mutalisk micromanagement)
3. High ground advantage so the game become more positional-based to salvage units.
4. Higher AOE dmg, this forces splits, this also helps with the harass elements.
Pretty simplistic conceptual overhaul. Blizzard won't do them btw.
Oh yeah get rid of all macro mechanics, it builds army way too fast. Why harass when I get there, the base will be heavily defended? Better to build my own ball of death, its far more efficient. I don't see deathball in TvZ I see a lot of short battles tho. You see short battles but you see a lot of them, because Terran and Zerg have huge production capacities. TvZ has always arguably been the best match-up to spectate for this reason. It's fast paced with a lot of action -- the antonym of actual deathball match-ups which is usually anything with a Protoss in it. edit: On September 22 2013 02:40 BronzeKnee wrote:On September 21 2013 03:40 Xeris wrote:
One of the biggest problems (game play) is unsolvable. HoTS is definitely a better game than WoL, but the inherent aspects of the game engine can't be overcome by balance or new units, I fear Brood War will always be more exciting to watch than StarCraft 2. And playing the game is utterly boring now too. When I used to que up on ladder (mid/high masters) sometime in 2011, I had no idea what was coming, no matter what race I was up against. If it was Terran, it could be a CC first, it could be any variation of 1-1-1, it could be 2 rax pressure expand, ect... There were so many viable strategies, that Starcraft II was what you made it. With enough effort, you could take any playstyle to the top, from cannon rushing to macro play. That made the game exciting, I had so much to learn. But now, I just need to learn a few builds and do them solidly. That makes it easy, but unfortunately my mechanics, and everyone mechanics have a limit, and then you are stuck. You can't be inventive, you can't make the game what you want it to be. For instance, Terran can't just invent new timings to kill Protoss early like they could in WOL, because the MSC is just too strong against any early attack. Not sure which metagame you were playing in 2011 but towards the latter end of the year, 2 rax pressure was pretty much dead, and after the summer of the 1-1-1, the all-in variant was virtually solved and slowly fell off from the ladder. Like, 80% of openers from Terran in any match-up was the exact same 1 rax fe. I would say that Protoss needs a revamp more than anything. Then work from there. I dare to bet that Terran needs more variety in styles first, before we are talking revamp of toss (not implying toss is well designed) A revamp of Toss might provide Terran the opportunity to play with more variety (mech). Only in TvP. Revamp of toss will not affect Terran's mech outside of TvP.
TvP is the match-up everyone wants to see mech in the most, or at least the BW fans do, and the way Protoss is designed will never allow mech to be competitive at the highest level.
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