Axiom Esports announced via twitter that it would be unable to participate in the upcoming Acer TeamStory Cup live finals, scheduled to be played in Germany on August 17-18. Axiom owner Genna Bain stated a variety of reasons, from a lack of financial support from ATC to cover the cost of flights to wanting to focus on other tournaments.
According to ATC organizer Dennis "TaKe" Gehlen, Axiom and ATC worked together to find a solution, but were unable to work out a way to allow Axiom to participate in the end. Take announced that Millenium, the fifth place finisher in the online portion of the tournament, would be taking Axiom's place.
The revised finals card is now Team MVP, Acer Esports, TeamLiquid, and Millenium.
Due to unfortunate circumstances, we will be unable to compete in the offline portion of the ATC. Our apologies to our fans & sponsors.
"Just going to add some additional info here. Several reasons have prevented us from participating in the offline portion of ATC.
After WCS NA, we felt that CranK needed to focus on recovering from his injury.
There is not much time left to prepare for DreamHack Bucharest and we want to be in top condition. (Also in the event we make it to the SC2L offline portion, we wanted to be prepared for that as well.)
We were not directly made aware that teams would only receive $1500 for the entire team to travel from Korea to Germany until flights were ridiculously overpriced. ($1500 per team is comped by ATC, not per person)
While our team is not in any kind of financial distress (if it were, I have my primary accounts and 401K to dip into) it is my goal as owner of Axiom to break even as much as possible and not to grossly exceed our income from sponsorship. It's not always pleasant to have to be fiscally responsible, but there are other factors at work here which made my decision to keep the team at home easier.
Thank you all for your understanding in this matter. We have some wonderful sponsors and fans who expected to see us compete at this event and we are very sorry to have to let everyone down by forfeiting our position in ATC. We are sure that ATC will announce our replacement shortly, so please support them and enjoy the finals regardless of our absence."
Hey everyone in the esportscene as you have seen Axiom did a post that they won`t be able to participate in the Acer TeamStoryCup powered by Intel which makes me very sad! I have seen some bad feedback from the community which gives me a very bad feeling cause Axiom same as us tried to figure out all options if they can make it and do not have to cancel thier participation.
We kept talking for along time already and also informed Millenium right after we knew that it _might_ happen that Axiom won t be able to attend. I wanna thank Axiom for keep talking to us and trying to find a solution. So as you can see Millenium will be the replacement in this case - Stuff like this can happen and is very sad for the team itself cause they fought for this place.
I hope to see Axiom back in action if there is a next season and they can do it once again to qualify for the Finals! I hope even with this bad news you are looking forward to the ATC Finale as i do which will be already saturday and i also wanna let you guys know that we try to work on this league to let stuff like this not happen again and try to have even a better communication to the teams but don t forget esport is a very very busy business and all of the people actually working here invest more time than most "normal" people would ever do.
On August 15 2013 00:27 Noocta wrote: I don't blame them. After their incident with Travelocity, they probably don't want to fly their players again so soon.
Actually they tweeted someone and just said "haha, this one had nothing to do with travelocity"
On August 15 2013 00:27 Noocta wrote: I don't blame them. After their incident with Travelocity, they probably don't want to fly their players again so soon.
Actually they tweeted someone and just said "haha, this one had nothing to do with travelocity"
Oh. Well, I don't know then ! I would have been able to understand not flying all their players after losing like 6000$ in that.
On August 15 2013 00:27 Noocta wrote: I don't blame them. After their incident with Travelocity, they probably don't want to fly their players again so soon.
Actually they tweeted someone and just said "haha, this one had nothing to do with travelocity"
Yeah, I don’t know what the reasons are, but it could be anything from budget or timing. At the end of the day, sometimes people can’t make it to events.
On August 15 2013 00:27 Noocta wrote: I don't blame them. After their incident with Travelocity, they probably don't want to fly their players again so soon.
Actually they tweeted someone and just said "haha, this one had nothing to do with travelocity"
Oh. Well, I don't know then ! I would have been able to understand not flying all their players after losing like 6000$ in that.
It is possible that money could still be tied up. That is not a small amount of cash for such a tiny team.
TB posted in the MVP Fundraiser thread that he was thinking of doing something like what MVP did. Korea to Germany and back for 5-6 people is ridiculously expensive.
On August 15 2013 00:27 Noocta wrote: I don't blame them. After their incident with Travelocity, they probably don't want to fly their players again so soon.
Actually they tweeted someone and just said "haha, this one had nothing to do with travelocity"
Yeah, I don’t know what the reasons are, but it could be anything from budget or timing. At the end of the day, sometimes people can’t make it to events.
Too bad really :-/
What happened with travelocity and Axiom that people are talking about?
On August 15 2013 00:27 Noocta wrote: I don't blame them. After their incident with Travelocity, they probably don't want to fly their players again so soon.
Actually they tweeted someone and just said "haha, this one had nothing to do with travelocity"
Yeah, I don’t know what the reasons are, but it could be anything from budget or timing. At the end of the day, sometimes people can’t make it to events.
It could be this issue about crank tl.gd/n_1rlqkmf
On August 15 2013 00:27 Noocta wrote: I don't blame them. After their incident with Travelocity, they probably don't want to fly their players again so soon.
Actually they tweeted someone and just said "haha, this one had nothing to do with travelocity"
Yeah, I don’t know what the reasons are, but it could be anything from budget or timing. At the end of the day, sometimes people can’t make it to events.
Too bad really :-/
What happened with travelocity and Axiom that people are talking about?
On August 15 2013 00:27 Noocta wrote: I don't blame them. After their incident with Travelocity, they probably don't want to fly their players again so soon.
Actually they tweeted someone and just said "haha, this one had nothing to do with travelocity"
Yeah, I don’t know what the reasons are, but it could be anything from budget or timing. At the end of the day, sometimes people can’t make it to events.
Too bad really :-/
What happened with travelocity and Axiom that people are talking about?
I think they pretty much screwed everything in Axiom's travels for WCS America.
On August 15 2013 00:27 Noocta wrote: I don't blame them. After their incident with Travelocity, they probably don't want to fly their players again so soon.
Actually they tweeted someone and just said "haha, this one had nothing to do with travelocity"
Yeah, I don’t know what the reasons are, but it could be anything from budget or timing. At the end of the day, sometimes people can’t make it to events.
Too bad really :-/
What happened with travelocity and Axiom that people are talking about?
They fucked up their tickets, canceled them and then charged them after canceling. Its like 4 automated systems all fucking up and not talking to each other, canceling their flights and then charging them $6,000 for nothing.
I hope either Millenium can go on short notice or they change it up so TL plays Acer because MVP got 1st place. Would be stupid if the 3rd placed team got a walkover to the finals and not the 1st place team.
I guess team leagues are only possible with huge safety deposits. Poor Acer, poor Intel and poor Take, I feel sorry for them. I understand the Proleague 100k safety deposit now. Why did they even participate?
Huge props to MVP, that they did not pull that shit.
A entry fee like SPL has is great for these kind of situations.
Having one out of four qualified teams not attend really ruins the tournament. Hope Millenium gets Axiom's spot.
Genna posted their reasons on reddit:
After WCS NA, we felt that CranK needed to focus on recovering from his injury.
There is not much time left to prepare for DreamHack Bucharest and we want to be in top condition. (Also in the event we make it to the SC2L offline portion, we wanted to be prepared for that as well.)
We were not directly made aware that teams would only receive $1500 for the entire team to travel from Korea to Germany until flights were ridiculously overpriced. ($1500 per team is comped by ATC, not per person)
My personal opinion is that a team participating in these kind of leagues should 100% be ready to attend if they go that far, and the reasons listed aren't really stuff that has come up last minute (maybe Crank, depending if it has gotten worse).
Hopefully this wont prevent Axiom players to participate in future online leagues with offline finals.
Tbh this is really unprofessional of TB and his team. If they can't participate don't join. You dont see Barcelona cancelling their match in Champions League.
After WCS NA, we felt that CranK needed to focus on recovering from his injury.
There is not much time left to prepare for DreamHack Bucharest and we want to be in top condition. (Also in the event we make it to the SC2L offline portion, we wanted to be prepared for that as well.)
We were not directly made aware that teams would only receive $1500 for the entire team to travel from Korea to Germany until flights were ridiculously overpriced. ($1500 per team is comped by ATC, not per person)
That is completely stupid by ATC if they want teams form several regions to attend. There is no reason to fly your team out if you are only reimbursed $1,500. It just doesn’t make sense for a team attempting to make a profit.
The costs of flights is murder on smaller teams and it’s the reason a lot of Dota 2 events are held online. If ATC isn’t willing to put up the full value for travel, they might as well be upfront and clear about it. I don't think this is something folks would just assume.
On August 15 2013 00:52 AyaaLa wrote: Tbh this is really unprofessional of TB and his team. If they can't participate don't join. You dont see Barcelona cancelling their match in Champions League.
I agree (expect the inappropriate Barcelona/Champions league comparison and saying that the team is run by TB).
On August 15 2013 00:52 AyaaLa wrote: Tbh this is really unprofessional of TB and his team. If they can't participate don't join. You dont see Barcelona cancelling their match in Champions League.
I think they were misimformed about how much ATC would cover in travel and Cranks injury is likely a factor.
On August 15 2013 00:49 DJHelium wrote: A entry fee like SPL has is great for these kind of situations.
Having one out of four qualified teams not attend really ruins the tournament. Hope Millenium gets Axiom's spot.
Genna posted their reasons on reddit:
After WCS NA, we felt that CranK needed to focus on recovering from his injury.
There is not much time left to prepare for DreamHack Bucharest and we want to be in top condition. (Also in the event we make it to the SC2L offline portion, we wanted to be prepared for that as well.)
We were not directly made aware that teams would only receive $1500 for the entire team to travel from Korea to Germany until flights were ridiculously overpriced. ($1500 per team is comped by ATC, not per person)
That is completely stupid by ATC if they want teams form several regions to attend. There is no reason to fly your team out if you are only reimbursed $1,500. It just doesn’t make sense for a team attempting to make a profit.
The costs of flights is murder on smaller teams and it’s the reason a lot of Dota 2 events are held online. If ATC isn’t willing to put up the full value for travel, they might as well be upfront about it.
Err, wasn't it common knowledge that they would only reimburse 1500$ in total...? I mean, a lot of random users on TL and reddit seem to know about it, so I don't think it is presumptuous to expect the manager of an attending team to know it as well.
I can almost hear the calls for blood by angry Millenium fans from here.
On August 15 2013 00:52 AyaaLa wrote: Tbh this is really unprofessional of TB and his team. If they can't participate don't join. You dont see Barcelona cancelling their match in Champions League.
lol, someones trying hard to summon TB. Normally I wouldn't bother as I'm 75% sure you're a troll, but Axiom were recently screwed over by the booking agency which ended in them having to buy last minute plane tickets 30 minutes before the gates closed and costing them an additional $2000+ then what they'd originally planned. No doubt they tried everything they could to make this work, how about giving someone the benefit of the doubt before instantly assuming the worst about someone.
On August 15 2013 00:49 DJHelium wrote: A entry fee like SPL has is great for these kind of situations.
Having one out of four qualified teams not attend really ruins the tournament. Hope Millenium gets Axiom's spot.
Genna posted their reasons on reddit:
After WCS NA, we felt that CranK needed to focus on recovering from his injury.
There is not much time left to prepare for DreamHack Bucharest and we want to be in top condition. (Also in the event we make it to the SC2L offline portion, we wanted to be prepared for that as well.)
We were not directly made aware that teams would only receive $1500 for the entire team to travel from Korea to Germany until flights were ridiculously overpriced. ($1500 per team is comped by ATC, not per person)
That is completely stupid by ATC if they want teams form several regions to attend. There is no reason to fly your team out if you are only reimbursed $1,500. It just doesn’t make sense for a team attempting to make a profit.
The costs of flights is murder on smaller teams and it’s the reason a lot of Dota 2 events are held online. If ATC isn’t willing to put up the full value for travel, they might as well be upfront and clear about it. I don't think this is something folks would just assume.
This is extremely unprofessional of Axiom; not ATCs problem.
On August 15 2013 00:53 Plansix wrote: That is completely stupid by ATC if they want teams form several regions to attend. There is no reason to fly your team out if you are only reimbursed $1,500. It just doesn’t make sense for a team attempting to make a profit.
The costs of flights is murder on smaller teams and it’s the reason a lot of Dota 2 events are held online. If ATC isn’t willing to put up the full value for travel, they might as well be upfront about it.
They don't get any travel expenses paid for Dreamhack HSC etc. afaik (MLG is special). Also they get $1.5k + at least $2k for 4th place. Flights for 5 people cost $6k. source swoodoo
Millenium is going since they'll be casting the games. I'm not sure it's been announced officially though.
It feels a bit wierd after Totalbiscuit posted his face everywhere in the thread where Axiom had qualified. But why has Take invited Axiom and had a Korean qualifier if it was so expensive to fly to Germany ? I hope the final provides great games and that the next Teamstory cup is more tightly organized (rules not changing mid season and only made for European teams or higher prize pool).
Team MVP had this whole fundraiser thingie knowing that they would only be getting $1500. There is no way that TB/Genna didn't know about it as the fundraiser got announced, so there has been quite som time to do something (forfeit league or start their own fundraiser).
On August 15 2013 00:49 DJHelium wrote: A entry fee like SPL has is great for these kind of situations.
Having one out of four qualified teams not attend really ruins the tournament. Hope Millenium gets Axiom's spot.
Genna posted their reasons on reddit:
After WCS NA, we felt that CranK needed to focus on recovering from his injury.
There is not much time left to prepare for DreamHack Bucharest and we want to be in top condition. (Also in the event we make it to the SC2L offline portion, we wanted to be prepared for that as well.)
We were not directly made aware that teams would only receive $1500 for the entire team to travel from Korea to Germany until flights were ridiculously overpriced. ($1500 per team is comped by ATC, not per person)
That is completely stupid by ATC if they want teams form several regions to attend. There is no reason to fly your team out if you are only reimbursed $1,500. It just doesn’t make sense for a team attempting to make a profit.
The costs of flights is murder on smaller teams and it’s the reason a lot of Dota 2 events are held online. If ATC isn’t willing to put up the full value for travel, they might as well be upfront about it.
Err, wasn't it common knowledge that they would only reimburse 1500$ in total...? I mean, a lot of random users on TL seem to know about it, so I don't think it is presumptuous to expect the manager of an attending team to know it as well.
That is the real question. I don’t know if it was unclear the amount that they would cover or if TB overlooked it. I know TB and the team got screwed on travel costs in the past week or so and that might be a factor as well. They might just have a super tight budget and were forced to cancel.
I'm sure Genna has valid reasons for cancelling, but I can't help but feel really annoyed at Axiom. I understand they have a very busy schedule inbetween GSTL, WCS America, all the foreign leagues, ATC and SC2L, but it resulted in their games (as well as TL's often being delayed for weeks if not longer during the ATC. If you have too many tournaments to play in, it's okay to refuse an invite to one of them, but do so at the beginning of the event, not just before the offline playoffs. This way, not only do you disrupt the flow of the tournament (as the legitimate team to have that place in the playoffs), but you also create huge problems for TaKe and his crew who have been running this event for months, and create a lot of hassle to the team that will (hopefully) replace you.
I appreciate all that you do and what you invest in the livelihood of those four great players, but please, next time think ahead, and plan better.
On August 15 2013 01:01 DJHelium wrote: Team MVP had this whole fundraiser thingie knowing that they would only be getting $1500. There is no way that TB/Genna didn't know about it as the fundraiser got announced, so there has been quite som time to do something (forfeit league or start their own fundraiser).
All right then, it must be other issues or their budget changed due to something we are not aware of. I am willing to give TB and his wife the benefit of the doubt that it is an honest mistake. Another team can fill in, so ATC should have a full event.
On August 15 2013 00:49 DJHelium wrote: A entry fee like SPL has is great for these kind of situations.
Having one out of four qualified teams not attend really ruins the tournament. Hope Millenium gets Axiom's spot.
Genna posted their reasons on reddit:
After WCS NA, we felt that CranK needed to focus on recovering from his injury.
There is not much time left to prepare for DreamHack Bucharest and we want to be in top condition. (Also in the event we make it to the SC2L offline portion, we wanted to be prepared for that as well.)
We were not directly made aware that teams would only receive $1500 for the entire team to travel from Korea to Germany until flights were ridiculously overpriced. ($1500 per team is comped by ATC, not per person)
That is completely stupid by ATC if they want teams form several regions to attend. There is no reason to fly your team out if you are only reimbursed $1,500. It just doesn’t make sense for a team attempting to make a profit.
The costs of flights is murder on smaller teams and it’s the reason a lot of Dota 2 events are held online. If ATC isn’t willing to put up the full value for travel, they might as well be upfront about it.
Err, wasn't it common knowledge that they would only reimburse 1500$ in total...? I mean, a lot of random users on TL seem to know about it, so I don't think it is presumptuous to expect the manager of an attending team to know it as well.
That is the real question. I don’t know if it was unclear the amount that they would cover or if TB overlooked it. I know TB and the team got screwed on travel costs in the past week or so and that might be a factor as well. They might just have a super tight budget and were forced to cancel.
While I am 100% sure that it (the 1500$ per team) was noted at the very beginning (if not in the first few announcements of the league), I don't think the team is run by TB...
not attending because of other tournaments is just a dick move. cant understand such reasons. maybe there is more to it but the reason that they want to be in good shape for other tournaments is ridicoulous.
On August 15 2013 00:49 DJHelium wrote: A entry fee like SPL has is great for these kind of situations.
Having one out of four qualified teams not attend really ruins the tournament. Hope Millenium gets Axiom's spot.
Genna posted their reasons on reddit:
After WCS NA, we felt that CranK needed to focus on recovering from his injury.
There is not much time left to prepare for DreamHack Bucharest and we want to be in top condition. (Also in the event we make it to the SC2L offline portion, we wanted to be prepared for that as well.)
We were not directly made aware that teams would only receive $1500 for the entire team to travel from Korea to Germany until flights were ridiculously overpriced. ($1500 per team is comped by ATC, not per person)
That is completely stupid by ATC if they want teams form several regions to attend. There is no reason to fly your team out if you are only reimbursed $1,500. It just doesn’t make sense for a team attempting to make a profit.
The costs of flights is murder on smaller teams and it’s the reason a lot of Dota 2 events are held online. If ATC isn’t willing to put up the full value for travel, they might as well be upfront about it.
Err, wasn't it common knowledge that they would only reimburse 1500$ in total...? I mean, a lot of random users on TL seem to know about it, so I don't think it is presumptuous to expect the manager of an attending team to know it as well.
That is the real question. I don’t know if it was unclear the amount that they would cover or if TB overlooked it. I know TB and the team got screwed on travel costs in the past week or so and that might be a factor as well. They might just have a super tight budget and were forced to cancel.
While I am 100% sure that it (the 1500$ per team) was noted at the very beginning (if not in the first few announcements of the league), I don't think the team is run by TB...
It is him and his wife. I feel safe is saying that they both work together on running the team. He talks about it on his podcast enough. And it sounds like something happened and they can’t afford to send them. That stuff happens sometimes and I am sure they would like to send the team, but can’t.
Related: Can TL, Acer and Mill announce who of their players will come to the finals? I would like to do some stuff to hype it up (not 100% sure if I can though), but it obviously doesn't work if I don't even know who will show up.
On August 15 2013 01:01 DJHelium wrote: Team MVP had this whole fundraiser thingie knowing that they would only be getting $1500. There is no way that TB/Genna didn't know about it as the fundraiser got announced, so there has been quite som time to do something (forfeit league or start their own fundraiser).
Yeah, but the fundraiser was really badly organised. It was short term and at a bad time.
On August 15 2013 01:19 chuky500 wrote: Millenium is sending Forgg, Goswser, Dayshi, Diestar, Tod and Adelscott.
did I miss something, or was that a mistake?
No he was their joker during the tournament but only played once or twice. Which is unfortunate since the lack of protoss players crippled Millenium in the last weeks.
Damn, really sucks for Axiom, especially for such a small team, any bit of exposure they can get would be fantastic, sadly it seems the costs might outweigh the benefits here, I wish them luck in the future, hope they can attend more tournaments.
(Also in the event we make it to the SC2L offline portion, we wanted to be prepared for that as well.)
yeah, let's prepare for a future event in case you get the offline event, and skip the offline event you already have
really really bad move
why you read only what you want ?
Well all that info wasn't up there when he posted. Still kind of a dick thing to say.
It is super sad to see that Axiom is having such problems with cash flow. I really want them to do well, but getting an ROI must be really hard. Glad they are making the tough choices and being honest about it. Clearly it time to sell us all some T-shirts.
(Also in the event we make it to the SC2L offline portion, we wanted to be prepared for that as well.)
yeah, let's prepare for a future event in case you get the offline event, and skip the offline event you already have
really really bad move
why you read only what you want ?
Well all that info wasn't up there when he posted. Still kind of a dick thing to say.
It is super sad to see that Axiom is having such problems with cash flow. I really want them to do well, but getting an ROI must be really hard. Glad they are making the tough choices and being honest about it. Clearly it time to sell us all some T-shirts.
Why is that a dick thing to say? One of the reasons given does state exactly that.
(Also in the event we make it to the SC2L offline portion, we wanted to be prepared for that as well.)
yeah, let's prepare for a future event in case you get the offline event, and skip the offline event you already have
really really bad move
why you read only what you want ?
What I see is they prefer to forfeit a playoff in a league they started 4 months ago to prepare for future event (where they are not even sure they will go)
(Also in the event we make it to the SC2L offline portion, we wanted to be prepared for that as well.)
yeah, let's prepare for a future event in case you get the offline event, and skip the offline event you already have
really really bad move
why you read only what you want ?
Well all that info wasn't up there when he posted. Still kind of a dick thing to say.
It is super sad to see that Axiom is having such problems with cash flow. I really want them to do well, but getting an ROI must be really hard. Glad they are making the tough choices and being honest about it. Clearly it time to sell us all some T-shirts.
Why is that a dick thing to say? One of the reasons given does state exactly that.
That and their budget is so tight that the owner has been dipping into her 401K to fund the team. That really sucks and clearly they are struggling to make their budget stay in the black. If he thinks its a bad move to be responsable and not spend money the team might not have, I guess he can think that. However, I am going to say it sort of a dickish thing to say.
(Also in the event we make it to the SC2L offline portion, we wanted to be prepared for that as well.)
yeah, let's prepare for a future event in case you get the offline event, and skip the offline event you already have
really really bad move
why you read only what you want ?
What I see is they prefer to forfeit a playoff in a league they started 4 months ago to prepare for future event (where they are not even sure they will go)
Because they have no money to go because their budget became to tight. Its an honest mistake. What do you want, them to mortgage their house for plane tickets?
sounds like 1) they make a loss of several $1000 by attending , and 2) that their player/s don't particularly feel comfortable with going/feel shitty . which is what the post said.
(Also in the event we make it to the SC2L offline portion, we wanted to be prepared for that as well.)
yeah, let's prepare for a future event in case you get the offline event, and skip the offline event you already have
really really bad move
why you read only what you want ?
Well all that info wasn't up there when he posted. Still kind of a dick thing to say.
It is super sad to see that Axiom is having such problems with cash flow. I really want them to do well, but getting an ROI must be really hard. Glad they are making the tough choices and being honest about it. Clearly it time to sell us all some T-shirts.
Why is that a dick thing to say? One of the reasons given does state exactly that.
That and their budget is so tight that the owner has been dipping into her 401K to fund the team. That really sucks and clearly they are struggling to make their budget go. If he thinks its a bad move to be responsable and not spend money the team might not have, I guess he can think that. However, I am going to say it sort of a dickish thing to say.
"While our team is not in any kind of financial distress (if it were, I have my primary accounts and 401K to dip into)" --> does in my mind not mean "I have spent much of my personal 401k", but "I have 401k I am not dipping into". Whatever that number is supposed to mean but, "look how rich I am, I am so legit". Anyways, I agree that this is a bad move and Yhamm is quite right on what he says.
While I totally understand and forgive Axiom for not showing at ATC finals (GL to CranK btw), I don't get the "misunderstood 1,500 $" reason. Since the beginning of the cup, it has been clear that the 1,500 $ were for the whole team. I can't believe that me, random SC2 fan, knew about this and not the owners of one of the team participating in the event.
As a Millenium fan now, I appreciate the fact that the admins decided to fill the missing spot but I won't rejoice that Axiom can't attend. Not being able to attend an event you qualified for must be one of the most painful situation for a player/team. It's not the way I wanted Millenium to "qualify".
On August 15 2013 01:01 DJHelium wrote: Team MVP had this whole fundraiser thingie knowing that they would only be getting $1500. There is no way that TB/Genna didn't know about it as the fundraiser got announced, so there has been quite som time to do something (forfeit league or start their own fundraiser).
Yeah, but the fundraiser was really badly organised. It was short term and at a bad time.
My point is that Axiom would know how much money they're getting from that point at least.
There is no one to blame here, if TakeTV had to pay the whole bill for shipping axiom from korea to europe it would probably cost about $6000 if not even more. It's really to bad Axiom won't make the commitment but it is understandable that they want to try to have a team that breaks even money wise in the end, it shows serious management and that they want to be sustainable for years to come.
(Also in the event we make it to the SC2L offline portion, we wanted to be prepared for that as well.)
yeah, let's prepare for a future event in case you get the offline event, and skip the offline event you already have
really really bad move
why you read only what you want ?
Well all that info wasn't up there when he posted. Still kind of a dick thing to say.
It is super sad to see that Axiom is having such problems with cash flow. I really want them to do well, but getting an ROI must be really hard. Glad they are making the tough choices and being honest about it. Clearly it time to sell us all some T-shirts.
Why is that a dick thing to say? One of the reasons given does state exactly that.
That and their budget is so tight that the owner has been dipping into her 401K to fund the team. That really sucks and clearly they are struggling to make their budget go. If he thinks its a bad move to be responsable and not spend money the team might not have, I guess he can think that. However, I am going to say it sort of a dickish thing to say.
"While our team is not in any kind of financial distress (if it were, I have my primary accounts and 401K to dip into)" --> does in my mind not mean "I have spent much of my personal 401k", but "I have 401k I am not dipping into". Whatever that number is supposed to mean but, "look how rich I am, I am so legit". Anyways, I agree that this is a bad move and Yhamm is quite right on what he says.
I disagree and think teams should be responsable and make sure they don't spend money they don't have. It the price of attending is to high, then you have to cut your losses and focus on what you can focus on. Their players rely on them not wasting money or failing to balance the books. And I think blaming people for being responsable is a dick thing to do.
(Also in the event we make it to the SC2L offline portion, we wanted to be prepared for that as well.)
yeah, let's prepare for a future event in case you get the offline event, and skip the offline event you already have
really really bad move
why you read only what you want ?
Well all that info wasn't up there when he posted. Still kind of a dick thing to say.
It is super sad to see that Axiom is having such problems with cash flow. I really want them to do well, but getting an ROI must be really hard. Glad they are making the tough choices and being honest about it. Clearly it time to sell us all some T-shirts.
Why is that a dick thing to say? One of the reasons given does state exactly that.
That and their budget is so tight that the owner has been dipping into her 401K to fund the team. That really sucks and clearly they are struggling to make their budget go. If he thinks its a bad move to be responsable and not spend money the team might not have, I guess he can think that. However, I am going to say it sort of a dickish thing to say.
"While our team is not in any kind of financial distress (if it were, I have my primary accounts and 401K to dip into)" --> does in my mind not mean "I have spent much of my personal 401k", but "I have 401k I am not dipping into". Whatever that number is supposed to mean but, "look how rich I am, I am so legit". Anyways, I agree that this is a bad move and Yhamm is quite right on what he says.
401K is the name of a common savings plan (a rough definition at least). She's not saying she has 401,000$.
Find our official News and Statement about Axiom not attending at the Acer TeamStoryCup Final powered by Intel and also that Millenium will replace them below. We are very sad to announce that and hope to see Axiom back in our next possible season who did a great job. Also thank you to the managment of Axiom who tried to find a solution until the very end.
(Also in the event we make it to the SC2L offline portion, we wanted to be prepared for that as well.)
yeah, let's prepare for a future event in case you get the offline event, and skip the offline event you already have
really really bad move
why you read only what you want ?
Well all that info wasn't up there when he posted. Still kind of a dick thing to say.
It is super sad to see that Axiom is having such problems with cash flow. I really want them to do well, but getting an ROI must be really hard. Glad they are making the tough choices and being honest about it. Clearly it time to sell us all some T-shirts.
Why is that a dick thing to say? One of the reasons given does state exactly that.
That and their budget is so tight that the owner has been dipping into her 401K to fund the team. That really sucks and clearly they are struggling to make their budget go. If he thinks its a bad move to be responsable and not spend money the team might not have, I guess he can think that. However, I am going to say it sort of a dickish thing to say.
"While our team is not in any kind of financial distress (if it were, I have my primary accounts and 401K to dip into)" --> does in my mind not mean "I have spent much of my personal 401k", but "I have 401k I am not dipping into". Whatever that number is supposed to mean but, "look how rich I am, I am so legit". Anyways, I agree that this is a bad move and Yhamm is quite right on what he says.
Just to clarify that number: a 401k is an American term for a special savings/pension plan (they do not have pension insurances backed by the state like most european nations do), it does not mean that she has 401k$ as a reserve. Wiki Link
(Also in the event we make it to the SC2L offline portion, we wanted to be prepared for that as well.)
yeah, let's prepare for a future event in case you get the offline event, and skip the offline event you already have
really really bad move
why you read only what you want ?
Well all that info wasn't up there when he posted. Still kind of a dick thing to say.
It is super sad to see that Axiom is having such problems with cash flow. I really want them to do well, but getting an ROI must be really hard. Glad they are making the tough choices and being honest about it. Clearly it time to sell us all some T-shirts.
Why is that a dick thing to say? One of the reasons given does state exactly that.
That and their budget is so tight that the owner has been dipping into her 401K to fund the team. That really sucks and clearly they are struggling to make their budget go. If he thinks its a bad move to be responsable and not spend money the team might not have, I guess he can think that. However, I am going to say it sort of a dickish thing to say.
"While our team is not in any kind of financial distress (if it were, I have my primary accounts and 401K to dip into)" --> does in my mind not mean "I have spent much of my personal 401k", but "I have 401k I am not dipping into". Whatever that number is supposed to mean but, "look how rich I am, I am so legit". Anyways, I agree that this is a bad move and Yhamm is quite right on what he says.
401K is the name of a common savings plan (a rough definition at least). She's not saying she has 401,000$.
i didnt know that either. a lot of ppl will be confused by this. i was also wondering why she would disclose here personal savings in public
(Also in the event we make it to the SC2L offline portion, we wanted to be prepared for that as well.)
yeah, let's prepare for a future event in case you get the offline event, and skip the offline event you already have
really really bad move
why you read only what you want ?
Well all that info wasn't up there when he posted. Still kind of a dick thing to say.
It is super sad to see that Axiom is having such problems with cash flow. I really want them to do well, but getting an ROI must be really hard. Glad they are making the tough choices and being honest about it. Clearly it time to sell us all some T-shirts.
Why is that a dick thing to say? One of the reasons given does state exactly that.
That and their budget is so tight that the owner has been dipping into her 401K to fund the team. That really sucks and clearly they are struggling to make their budget go. If he thinks its a bad move to be responsable and not spend money the team might not have, I guess he can think that. However, I am going to say it sort of a dickish thing to say.
"While our team is not in any kind of financial distress (if it were, I have my primary accounts and 401K to dip into)" --> does in my mind not mean "I have spent much of my personal 401k", but "I have 401k I am not dipping into". Whatever that number is supposed to mean but, "look how rich I am, I am so legit". Anyways, I agree that this is a bad move and Yhamm is quite right on what he says.
I disagree and think teams should be responsable and make sure they don't spend money they don't have. It the price of attending is to high, then you have to cut your losses and focus on what you can focus on. Their players rely on them not wasting money or failing to balance the books. And I think blaming people for being responsable is a dick thing to do.
is it responsible or responsable? curious and would like to maybe learn a new thing.
besides that i disagree with your posting cuz its a chain of mistakes that lead to your conclusion and those mistakes should never happen in the first place. your statement alone would be accurate but with all the circumstances axiom surely is to blame, even if only partly cuz i dont know all the facts.
(Also in the event we make it to the SC2L offline portion, we wanted to be prepared for that as well.)
yeah, let's prepare for a future event in case you get the offline event, and skip the offline event you already have
really really bad move
why you read only what you want ?
Well all that info wasn't up there when he posted. Still kind of a dick thing to say.
It is super sad to see that Axiom is having such problems with cash flow. I really want them to do well, but getting an ROI must be really hard. Glad they are making the tough choices and being honest about it. Clearly it time to sell us all some T-shirts.
Why is that a dick thing to say? One of the reasons given does state exactly that.
That and their budget is so tight that the owner has been dipping into her 401K to fund the team. That really sucks and clearly they are struggling to make their budget go. If he thinks its a bad move to be responsable and not spend money the team might not have, I guess he can think that. However, I am going to say it sort of a dickish thing to say.
"While our team is not in any kind of financial distress (if it were, I have my primary accounts and 401K to dip into)" --> does in my mind not mean "I have spent much of my personal 401k", but "I have 401k I am not dipping into". Whatever that number is supposed to mean but, "look how rich I am, I am so legit". Anyways, I agree that this is a bad move and Yhamm is quite right on what he says.
401K is the name of a common savings plan (a rough definition at least). She's not saying she has 401,000$.
i didnt know that either. a lot of ppl will be confused by this. i was also wondering why she would disclose here personal savings in public
Yes, and dipping into one early comes with massive fees, so it is not a good thing to do if you can avoid it.
On August 15 2013 01:58 TaKeTV wrote: Find our official News and Statement about Axiom not attending at the Acer TeamStoryCup Final powered by Intel and also that Millenium will replace them below. We are very sad to announce that and hope to see Axiom back in our next possible season who did a great job. Also thank you to the managment of Axiom who tried to find a solution until the very end.
On August 15 2013 01:46 FFGenerations wrote: sounds like 1) they make a loss of several $1000 by attending , and 2) that their player/s don't particularly feel comfortable with going/feel shitty . which is what the post said.
And they could not have foreseen this before because...?
On August 15 2013 01:01 DJHelium wrote: Team MVP had this whole fundraiser thingie knowing that they would only be getting $1500. There is no way that TB/Genna didn't know about it as the fundraiser got announced, so there has been quite som time to do something (forfeit league or start their own fundraiser).
Yeah, but the fundraiser was really badly organised. It was short term and at a bad time.
My point is that Axiom would know how much money they're getting from that point at least.
Ah, nevermind. I read your post as MVP making a fundraiser and only getting 1500$ through it. My fault.
On August 15 2013 01:46 FFGenerations wrote: sounds like 1) they make a loss of several $1000 by attending , and 2) that their player/s don't particularly feel comfortable with going/feel shitty . which is what the post said.
And they could not have foreseen this before because...?
It does not seem like that was the case and they tried to find a solution(according to TakeTV). I am sure with 20/20 hindsight it is clear now, but who knows at the time. Mistakes happen and its looks like they took the time to fix them before comming out and saying they would be unable to attend.
On August 15 2013 02:05 geokilla wrote: Lol are they serious? That's pretty unfair to all the other teams in ATC. And to the sponsors of ATC as well as the viewers.
I understand they don't want to use their personal savings, but I feel that there should be a better way to handle this.
On August 15 2013 00:49 DJHelium wrote: A entry fee like SPL has is great for these kind of situations.
Having one out of four qualified teams not attend really ruins the tournament. Hope Millenium gets Axiom's spot.
Genna posted their reasons on reddit:
After WCS NA, we felt that CranK needed to focus on recovering from his injury.
There is not much time left to prepare for DreamHack Bucharest and we want to be in top condition. (Also in the event we make it to the SC2L offline portion, we wanted to be prepared for that as well.)
We were not directly made aware that teams would only receive $1500 for the entire team to travel from Korea to Germany until flights were ridiculously overpriced. ($1500 per team is comped by ATC, not per person)
That is completely stupid by ATC if they want teams form several regions to attend. There is no reason to fly your team out if you are only reimbursed $1,500. It just doesn’t make sense for a team attempting to make a profit.
The costs of flights is murder on smaller teams and it’s the reason a lot of Dota 2 events are held online. If ATC isn’t willing to put up the full value for travel, they might as well be upfront and clear about it. I don't think this is something folks would just assume.
It's not stupid by ATC,and the part abouot not beind directly informed about the travel cost help only bein 1,5k is so dumb I can't believe she even wrote that. If even I knew long before the league started that they'd get $1.500 for traveling if they qualified, how could they not? ATC made it clear from the beginning and it's the team manager's job to get all the necessary information before they sign up for the leage.
Also here is the TakeTV news with Take's statement.
On August 15 2013 01:46 FFGenerations wrote: sounds like 1) they make a loss of several $1000 by attending , and 2) that their player/s don't particularly feel comfortable with going/feel shitty . which is what the post said.
And they could not have foreseen this before because...?
Things we could not have foreseen
1) WCS. Acer Teamstory Cup began before WCS even existed
2) CranKs injury getting to the point where he would have to do some serious recoup prior to Season 2 GSTL.
3) Having 4 players instead of 5 after Miya retired and being unable to hire another Zerg
4) Travelocity and Kayak fucking us out of several thousand dollars to the point where our travel budget was depleted way before it should have been.
5) The start date of GSTL Season 2.
If even I knew long before the league started that they'd get $1.500 for traveling if they qualified, how could they not? ATC made it clear from the beginning and it's the team manager's job to get all the necessary information before they sign up for the leage.
This is bollocks. Don't pretend to know more than you really do. You literally have no idea what's been going on behind the scenes, stop fucking pretending.
On August 15 2013 00:49 DJHelium wrote: A entry fee like SPL has is great for these kind of situations.
Having one out of four qualified teams not attend really ruins the tournament. Hope Millenium gets Axiom's spot.
Genna posted their reasons on reddit:
After WCS NA, we felt that CranK needed to focus on recovering from his injury.
There is not much time left to prepare for DreamHack Bucharest and we want to be in top condition. (Also in the event we make it to the SC2L offline portion, we wanted to be prepared for that as well.)
We were not directly made aware that teams would only receive $1500 for the entire team to travel from Korea to Germany until flights were ridiculously overpriced. ($1500 per team is comped by ATC, not per person)
That is completely stupid by ATC if they want teams form several regions to attend. There is no reason to fly your team out if you are only reimbursed $1,500. It just doesn’t make sense for a team attempting to make a profit.
The costs of flights is murder on smaller teams and it’s the reason a lot of Dota 2 events are held online. If ATC isn’t willing to put up the full value for travel, they might as well be upfront and clear about it. I don't think this is something folks would just assume.
It's not stupid by ATC,and the part abouot not beind directly informed about the travel cost help only bein 1,5k is so dumb I can't believe she even wrote that. If even I knew long before the league started that they'd get $1.500 for traveling if they qualified, how could they not? ATC made it clear from the beginning and it's the team manager's job to get all the necessary information before they sign up for the leage.
Also here is the TakeTV news with Take's statement.
(Also in the event we make it to the SC2L offline portion, we wanted to be prepared for that as well.)
yeah, let's prepare for a future event in case you get the offline event, and skip the offline event you already have
really really bad move
why you read only what you want ?
Well all that info wasn't up there when he posted. Still kind of a dick thing to say.
It is super sad to see that Axiom is having such problems with cash flow. I really want them to do well, but getting an ROI must be really hard. Glad they are making the tough choices and being honest about it. Clearly it time to sell us all some T-shirts.
Why is that a dick thing to say? One of the reasons given does state exactly that.
That and their budget is so tight that the owner has been dipping into her 401K to fund the team. That really sucks and clearly they are struggling to make their budget go. If he thinks its a bad move to be responsable and not spend money the team might not have, I guess he can think that. However, I am going to say it sort of a dickish thing to say.
"While our team is not in any kind of financial distress (if it were, I have my primary accounts and 401K to dip into)" --> does in my mind not mean "I have spent much of my personal 401k", but "I have 401k I am not dipping into". Whatever that number is supposed to mean but, "look how rich I am, I am so legit". Anyways, I agree that this is a bad move and Yhamm is quite right on what he says.
401K is the name of a common savings plan (a rough definition at least). She's not saying she has 401,000$.
I did not know that. Makes the post sound a less lot strange to me now that I know.
On August 15 2013 01:46 FFGenerations wrote: sounds like 1) they make a loss of several $1000 by attending , and 2) that their player/s don't particularly feel comfortable with going/feel shitty . which is what the post said.
And they could not have foreseen this before because...?
On August 15 2013 01:46 FFGenerations wrote: sounds like 1) they make a loss of several $1000 by attending , and 2) that their player/s don't particularly feel comfortable with going/feel shitty . which is what the post said.
And they could not have foreseen this before because...?
5) The start date of GSTL Season 2.
this topic is now about the next GSTL
Can we make it about people that pretend to have inside knowledge of the scene and use it to criticise people that work in eSports? Because this thread is full of that.
On August 15 2013 01:46 FFGenerations wrote: sounds like 1) they make a loss of several $1000 by attending , and 2) that their player/s don't particularly feel comfortable with going/feel shitty . which is what the post said.
And they could not have foreseen this before because...?
They thought they were getting more money It says they thought they were getting 1500$ per player instead of 1500$ for the whole team
On August 15 2013 01:46 FFGenerations wrote: sounds like 1) they make a loss of several $1000 by attending , and 2) that their player/s don't particularly feel comfortable with going/feel shitty . which is what the post said.
And they could not have foreseen this before because...?
5) The start date of GSTL Season 2.
this topic is now about the next GSTL
Can we make it about people that pretend to have inside knowledge of the scene and use it to criticise people that work in eSports? Because this thread is full of that.
Its has some people who just took it at face value and knew there was a good reason for you folks to cancel.
On August 15 2013 01:46 FFGenerations wrote: sounds like 1) they make a loss of several $1000 by attending , and 2) that their player/s don't particularly feel comfortable with going/feel shitty . which is what the post said.
And they could not have foreseen this before because...?
5) The start date of GSTL Season 2.
this topic is now about the next GSTL
Can we make it about people that pretend to have inside knowledge of the scene and use it to criticise people that work in eSports? Because this thread is full of that.
You can't expect people not to be disappointed, and most of the time, people start 'pretending to have inside knowledge', because they have to resort to speculation because the PR is poor. Same reason why the lack of SC2 at MLG Colombus blew up.
On August 15 2013 01:46 FFGenerations wrote: sounds like 1) they make a loss of several $1000 by attending , and 2) that their player/s don't particularly feel comfortable with going/feel shitty . which is what the post said.
And they could not have foreseen this before because...?
5) The start date of GSTL Season 2.
this topic is now about the next GSTL
Can we make it about people that pretend to have inside knowledge of the scene and use it to criticise people that work in eSports? Because this thread is full of that.
You can't expect people not to be disappointed, and most of the time, people start 'pretending to have inside knowledge', because they have to resort to speculation because the PR is poor. Same reason why the lack of SC2 at MLG Colombus blew up.
You can be disappointed all you please but there's a difference between that and flat out attacking the organisation for perceived incompetence, dishonesty or whatever.
Frankly if we'd known it was acceptable to toss out the begging bowl like MVP, who evidently needed to do it despite having way more sponsors than we do, then maybe we'd have done that, but that wouldn't have solved the fact that 1/4 of our lineup is physically unfit to compete.
Yeah, it would be nice if announcements were accompanied by reasons. When the reasons are delayed, even by a little bit, that's when people speculate and assume the worst.
Edit: No, that isn't criticism, just wishful thinking.
Love when TB destroys posters who are passing judgment with knowing much of anything about what they're passing judgment on. Guess I don't even need to respond to the posts now. Thanks TB.
On August 15 2013 02:23 Kitai wrote: Yeah, it would be nice if announcements were accompanied by reasons. When the reasons are delayed, even by a little bit, that's when people speculate and assume the worst.
Edit: No, that isn't criticism, just wishful thinking.
This all happened during my lunch break. I mean, how fast do you want this stuff when it comes off Twitter and no one really looks at team's webpages.
On August 15 2013 02:23 Kitai wrote: Yeah, it would be nice if announcements were accompanied by reasons. When the reasons are delayed, even by a little bit, that's when people speculate and assume the worst.
Edit: No, that isn't criticism, just wishful thinking.
On August 15 2013 01:46 FFGenerations wrote: sounds like 1) they make a loss of several $1000 by attending , and 2) that their player/s don't particularly feel comfortable with going/feel shitty . which is what the post said.
And they could not have foreseen this before because...?
5) The start date of GSTL Season 2.
this topic is now about the next GSTL
Can we make it about people that pretend to have inside knowledge of the scene and use it to criticise people that work in eSports? Because this thread is full of that.
You can't expect people not to be disappointed, and most of the time, people start 'pretending to have inside knowledge', because they have to resort to speculation because the PR is poor. Same reason why the lack of SC2 at MLG Colombus blew up.
You can be disappointed all you please but there's a difference between that and flat out attacking the organisation for perceived incompetence, dishonesty or whatever.
Frankly if we'd known it was acceptable to toss out the begging bowl like MVP, who evidently needed to do it despite having way more sponsors than we do, then maybe we'd have done that, but that wouldn't have solved the fact that 1/4 of our lineup is physically unfit to compete.
Ok, you may want to have your wife screen these before posting for your own safty.
On August 15 2013 02:23 Kitai wrote: Yeah, it would be nice if announcements were accompanied by reasons. When the reasons are delayed, even by a little bit, that's when people speculate and assume the worst.
Edit: No, that isn't criticism, just wishful thinking.
Do you think that speculation is justified?
that is in the nature of people, if something isnt certain people will talk about it and speculate, thats not exclusive to esports, that most likely in all things out there.
oh btw, classy tb stays classy with his second paragraph about mvp. and people are surprised there are people who dont like u ^_^
On August 15 2013 02:26 chuky500 wrote: A bit wierd to see Millenium get the 2nd seed after finishing 5th. I would have put them against MVP, not Acer.
On August 15 2013 01:46 FFGenerations wrote: sounds like 1) they make a loss of several $1000 by attending , and 2) that their player/s don't particularly feel comfortable with going/feel shitty . which is what the post said.
And they could not have foreseen this before because...?
5) The start date of GSTL Season 2.
this topic is now about the next GSTL
Can we make it about people that pretend to have inside knowledge of the scene and use it to criticise people that work in eSports? Because this thread is full of that.
I find it funny how even quazi internet celeberities get so mad at there fans. If people didn't feel like they were part of the team they wouldn't purchase shirts follow religiously and all the other things you want to attract sponsers. So you love this and expect it when things go right.
Then things go wrong (you pull out of a event 3 days notice) And you are just so mad that people don't understand. IF you didn't expect some negative backlash from this then you are just not that bright. You should have taken that into account when you were deciding on whether to go or not. So get over it, When you a run a team some are going to like you and others are going to hate you.Because they will like your competitors. It's actually a great things if tons of people hate you because they will watch to hopefully see you lose. Heck Floyd Mayweather figured this out and became a villan on purpose and now he's the highest earning Boxer, same with Chael Sonnen in MMA, The yankee's in baseball are eitehr loved or hated but always watched. And there is a ton more examples.
Get some thicker skin, or at least be interesting with your responses. The Passive aggresive BS is just annoynig and whiney.
There's no reason for him to expect people to be critical of him when he didn't do anything wrong. And there's no reason to assume axiom did something wrong just because its only 3 days notice. You need to actually have a good reason for your criticism is read of just saying "hey you should expect it just because."
On August 15 2013 02:23 Kitai wrote: Yeah, it would be nice if announcements were accompanied by reasons. When the reasons are delayed, even by a little bit, that's when people speculate and assume the worst.
Edit: No, that isn't criticism, just wishful thinking.
Do you think that speculation is justified?
that is in the nature of people, if something isnt certain people will talk about it and speculate, thats not exclusive to esports, that most likely in all things out there.
oh btw, classy tb stays classy with his second paragraph about mvp. and people are surprised there are people who dont like u ^_^
So negative speculation is justified because people like to be dramatic. That's a really well thought-out argument you got there bro.
On August 15 2013 01:46 FFGenerations wrote: sounds like 1) they make a loss of several $1000 by attending , and 2) that their player/s don't particularly feel comfortable with going/feel shitty . which is what the post said.
And they could not have foreseen this before because...?
5) The start date of GSTL Season 2.
this topic is now about the next GSTL
Can we make it about people that pretend to have inside knowledge of the scene and use it to criticise people that work in eSports? Because this thread is full of that.
I find it funny how even quazi internet celeberities get so mad at there fans. If people didn't feel like they were part of the team they wouldn't purchase shirts follow religiously and all the other things you want to attract sponsers. So you love this and expect it when things go right.
Then things go wrong (you pull out of a event 3 days notice) And you are just so mad that people don't understand. IF you didn't expect some negative backlash from this then you are just not that bright. You should have taken that into account when you were deciding on whether to go or not. So get over it, When you a run a team some are going to like you and others are going to hate you.Because they will like your competitors. It's actually a great things if tons of people hate you because they will watch to hopefully see you lose. Heck Floyd Mayweather figured this out and became a villan on purpose and now he's the highest earning Boxer, same with Chael Sonnen in MMA, The yankee's in baseball are eitehr loved or hated but always watched. And there is a ton more examples.
Get some thicker skin, or at least be interesting with your responses. The Passive aggresive BS is just annoynig and whiney.
There's no reason for him to expect people to be critical of him when he didn't do anything wrong. And there's no reason to assume axiom did something wrong just because its only 3 days notice. You need to actually have a good reason for your criticism is read of just saying "hey you should expect it just because."
Exactly. Axiom has never given us reason to think they were anything less than honest and upfront about this stuff. If they said there was a good reason and they couldn't help it, there is good reason. I mean, their travel budget got fucked by third party vendors, thats not their fault.
On August 15 2013 02:23 Kitai wrote: Yeah, it would be nice if announcements were accompanied by reasons. When the reasons are delayed, even by a little bit, that's when people speculate and assume the worst.
Edit: No, that isn't criticism, just wishful thinking.
Do you think that speculation is justified?
that is in the nature of people, if something isnt certain people will talk about it and speculate, thats not exclusive to esports, that most likely in all things out there.
oh btw, classy tb stays classy with his second paragraph about mvp. and people are surprised there are people who dont like u ^_^
So negative speculation is justified because people like to be dramatic. That's a really well thought-out argument you got there bro.
thats not an argument and was not only for this occasion but in general, u will always have speculation about stuff people are not certain about, positive and negative.
thanks for calling me bro, that makes me feel young again ^_^ (duh)
On August 15 2013 00:27 Noocta wrote: I don't blame them. After their incident with Travelocity, they probably don't want to fly their players again so soon.
On August 15 2013 02:23 Kitai wrote: Yeah, it would be nice if announcements were accompanied by reasons. When the reasons are delayed, even by a little bit, that's when people speculate and assume the worst.
Edit: No, that isn't criticism, just wishful thinking.
This all happened during my lunch break. I mean, how fast do you want this stuff when it comes off Twitter and no one really looks at team's webpages.
Eh, I wasn't calling anyone out. I was just making an observation. This sort of thing happens all the time. It's frustrating when people on both sides of the issue pretend to know what they're talking about and post their ideas as facts before any truthful explanations are given firsthand by the parties involved. Then everyone's misinformation gets spread because their made-up BS is convincing enough to sound like fact and people's reputations are smeared.
If an official explanation accompanies the announcement, none of this happens and nobody has to get upset or feel unjustly targeted =X
On August 15 2013 00:27 Noocta wrote: I don't blame them. After their incident with Travelocity, they probably don't want to fly their players again so soon.
What'd the gnome do?
Stole 6K and canceled their flights. But kept the 6K and said they could have it back later...maybe.
If you read my post I said "things go wrong" not Genna did something wrong. You actually assumed I thought they did something wrong I never said that.
I said it wass wrong for him to expect everyone, including fans of his rivals, to not assume that tehy did something wrong.
When you are a part of a competitive team you would be silly and naive to think that everyone is going to love you and accept your explanations. Its not going to happen. And when making a decision that people can easily find fault in (esspecially people who root against you) you need to take that into account when making decisions. Its not as simple as, it cost us 6000k and we ony get 1.5k and we might only win 2k. so we could lose money. You have to take into account the public relations. And it's clear that TB should not be in charge of those.
I guess you could always take the extremely professional and responsible action of doing exactly what you are mad at other people are doing and making assumptions based onn another teams actions without any inside knowledge fo there situationa nd finances. and then throw them under the bus, in a passive aggressive manner hoping to take heat off yourself.
You know what's awesome? Watching community members try and explain away any and all responsibility they have to be reasonable and not outright attack teams and scene contributors while simultaneously having the gall to claim that those people should be "professional" and have good "public relations".
Guess what, the community doesn't get to eschew all blame just because it's not financial invested in the scene. If you post bullshit, expect people that know what they're talking about to call you on it.
I agree, unless you have more information about MVP's situation which you are willing to divulge, the comments about them and their fundraiser is uncalled for, and frankly quite rude.
On August 15 2013 02:23 Kitai wrote: Yeah, it would be nice if announcements were accompanied by reasons. When the reasons are delayed, even by a little bit, that's when people speculate and assume the worst.
Edit: No, that isn't criticism, just wishful thinking.
Do you think that speculation is justified?
that is in the nature of people, if something isnt certain people will talk about it and speculate, thats not exclusive to esports, that most likely in all things out there.
oh btw, classy tb stays classy with his second paragraph about mvp. and people are surprised there are people who dont like u ^_^
So negative speculation is justified because people like to be dramatic. That's a really well thought-out argument you got there bro.
Isn't that what you do when hunting for "hackers"?
Luckily for Take they found a replacement. Guess this is a good reason to have deposits in team leagues (like proleague), to prevent teams bailing out at the last second. Imagine if they would've only had 3 teams at the finals, that would've sucked. In my opinion this is very unprofessional of Axiom, if you start in a teamleague you've got to finish it.
I find it funny how even quazi internet celeberities get so mad at there fans.
I like how random forum posters pretend that people shitting on Axiom are somehow our fans.
I like how you can take one line from an entire post and try to twist it in your favor.
Maybe you are new to entertainment, but whether people cheer for your team or cheer against it there eyeballs help you pay your bills. From most of your posts, however, I feel like you are more interested in having your ego stroked.
I'm sorry but I can't take this seriously when I pay more for the team every month than all our sponsors put together. Oh man, you have the audacity to claim somehow that you guys are the ones paying the bills.
No see, I'm looking at my bank account right now and it's pretty clear who is paying the bills.
I like Axiom to bad it's not going to participate. Though the rules of this ATC still baffle me with the "buy back" players that lost there series etc.
On August 15 2013 02:49 renaissanceMAN wrote: This JimmiC kid getting destroyed by tb.
Its fun to watch. I like his excuses of “OMG TB your such a passive aggressive(TB is mostly aggressive) drama queen. You should EXPECT me to jump on the hate train when you make an announcement I don’t like. This is the internet and hating on people is what we do. I man, seriously, why would you disrespect your fans(the fans are watching TB rip him apart and feel totally respected) by posting this crap. Your so fake famous.”
Its pretty funny, though I bet the guy doesn’t even know its funny.
I find it funny how even quazi internet celeberities get so mad at there fans.
I like how random forum posters pretend that people shitting on Axiom are somehow our fans.
I like how you can take one line from an entire post and try to twist it in your favor.
Maybe you are new to entertainment, but whether people cheer for your team or cheer against it there eyeballs help you pay your bills. From most of your posts, however, I feel like you are more interested in having your ego stroked.
I'm sorry but I can't take this seriously when I pay more for the team every month than all our sponsors put together. Oh man, you have the audacity to claim somehow that you guys are the ones paying the bills.
No see, I'm looking at my bank account right now and it's pretty clear who is paying the bills.
Again to quote my self, since you seem to have trouble reading "help pay your bills" Are you argueing that people who watch your team do not help you at all financially? If so my bad. Also, I never claimed I paid your bills. I support team Liquid and cheer against everyone else.
I never claimed they pay for everything. You love to jump to conclusions and get all preachy.
Starting a team and funding it is a great thing, good job on you. I love esports and want more teams (for liquid to stomp). This doesn't mean everyone is going to love you all the time. People are going to write negative things, get over it. And further more if you want to help esports don't throw other teams jut trying to make it, like you, under the bus.
It's really too bad you come off like such a dink whenever you post because many of your actions have been so positive.
The only reason I'm coming off as a dick to you is because I'm calling you out for posting bullshit on a forum about our team. It's all fun and games until someone comes along and tells you that you're wrong isn't it?
I find it funny how even quazi internet celeberities get so mad at there fans.
I like how random forum posters pretend that people shitting on Axiom are somehow our fans.
I like how you can take one line from an entire post and try to twist it in your favor.
Maybe you are new to entertainment, but whether people cheer for your team or cheer against it there eyeballs help you pay your bills. From most of your posts, however, I feel like you are more interested in having your ego stroked.
I'm sorry but I can't take this seriously when I pay more for the team every month than all our sponsors put together. Oh man, you have the audacity to claim somehow that you guys are the ones paying the bills.
No see, I'm looking at my bank account right now and it's pretty clear who is paying the bills.
Again to quote my self, since you seem to have trouble reading "help pay your bills" Are you argueing that people who watch your team do not help you at all financially? If so my bad. Also, I never claimed I paid your bills. I support team Liquid and cheer against everyone else.
I never claimed they pay for everything. You love to jump to conclusions and get all preachy.
Starting a team and funding it is a great thing, good job on you. I love esports and want more teams (for liquid to stomp). This doesn't mean everyone is going to love you all the time. People are going to write negative things, get over it. And further more if you want to help esports don't throw other teams jut trying to make it, like you, under the bus.
It's really too bad you come off like such a dink whenever you post because many of your actions have been so positive.
The only reason I'm coming off as a dick to you is because I'm calling you out for posting bullshit on a forum about our team. It's all fun and games until someone comes along and tells you that you're wrong isn't it?
yes i WILL blame them ... i was so happy and now this shit ... they could ask before how much they get lol, if they cant get replaced the finals are rly worse now ... i hate axiom for that sry but thats just destroying a league
I find it funny how even quazi internet celeberities get so mad at there fans.
I like how random forum posters pretend that people shitting on Axiom are somehow our fans.
I like how you can take one line from an entire post and try to twist it in your favor.
Maybe you are new to entertainment, but whether people cheer for your team or cheer against it there eyeballs help you pay your bills. From most of your posts, however, I feel like you are more interested in having your ego stroked.
I'm sorry but I can't take this seriously when I pay more for the team every month than all our sponsors put together. Oh man, you have the audacity to claim somehow that you guys are the ones paying the bills.
No see, I'm looking at my bank account right now and it's pretty clear who is paying the bills.
Again to quote my self, since you seem to have trouble reading "help pay your bills" Are you argueing that people who watch your team do not help you at all financially? If so my bad. Also, I never claimed I paid your bills. I support team Liquid and cheer against everyone else.
I never claimed they pay for everything. You love to jump to conclusions and get all preachy.
Starting a team and funding it is a great thing, good job on you. I love esports and want more teams (for liquid to stomp). This doesn't mean everyone is going to love you all the time. People are going to write negative things, get over it. And further more if you want to help esports don't throw other teams jut trying to make it, like you, under the bus.
It's really too bad you come off like such a dink whenever you post because many of your actions have been so positive.
So if you don’t support them and you are not a fan, why does he care what you have to say about this? Also, why would they be wrong in dropping out if their team in injured, down a man and unable to play? I mean, that’s a pretty good reason to drop out, unless you just want to injure your team more and like losing money.
On August 15 2013 02:56 Drake wrote: yes i WILL blame them ... i was so happy and now this shit ... they could ask before how much they get lol, if they cant get replaced the finals are rly worse now ... i hate axiom for that sry but thats just destroying a league
err thats alot of crap you are posting, read the opener and better the reddit thread because the OP lacks some info
Ok after reading Take's and TB's view i will change my opinion on this subject..
Axiom did everything they could, they got fucked up by unfortunate circustances and tried to solve it the right way...
BUT.. you didn't communicate it very well.. your first words didn't explain the situation properly and people (like me jumped to conclusions), if take accepts it and in view of all the circustances.. it couldn't be helped!
On August 15 2013 02:56 Drake wrote: yes i WILL blame them ... i was so happy and now this shit ... they could ask before how much they get lol, if they cant get replaced the finals are rly worse now ... i hate axiom for that sry but thats just destroying a league
On August 15 2013 01:46 FFGenerations wrote: sounds like 1) they make a loss of several $1000 by attending , and 2) that their player/s don't particularly feel comfortable with going/feel shitty . which is what the post said.
And they could not have foreseen this before because...?
5) The start date of GSTL Season 2.
this topic is now about the next GSTL
Can we make it about people that pretend to have inside knowledge of the scene and use it to criticise people that work in eSports? Because this thread is full of that.
You can't expect people not to be disappointed, and most of the time, people start 'pretending to have inside knowledge', because they have to resort to speculation because the PR is poor. Same reason why the lack of SC2 at MLG Colombus blew up.
You can be disappointed all you please but there's a difference between that and flat out attacking the organisation for perceived incompetence, dishonesty or whatever.
Frankly if we'd known it was acceptable to toss out the begging bowl like MVP, who evidently needed to do it despite having way more sponsors than we do, then maybe we'd have done that, but that wouldn't have solved the fact that 1/4 of our lineup is physically unfit to compete.
Come on son thats a cheap shot and you know it. They also have a shit ton more players than you do as well.
I find it funny how even quazi internet celeberities get so mad at there fans.
I like how random forum posters pretend that people shitting on Axiom are somehow our fans.
I like how you can take one line from an entire post and try to twist it in your favor.
Maybe you are new to entertainment, but whether people cheer for your team or cheer against it there eyeballs help you pay your bills. From most of your posts, however, I feel like you are more interested in having your ego stroked.
I'm sorry but I can't take this seriously when I pay more for the team every month than all our sponsors put together. Oh man, you have the audacity to claim somehow that you guys are the ones paying the bills.
No see, I'm looking at my bank account right now and it's pretty clear who is paying the bills.
Again to quote my self, since you seem to have trouble reading "help pay your bills" Are you argueing that people who watch your team do not help you at all financially? If so my bad. Also, I never claimed I paid your bills. I support team Liquid and cheer against everyone else.
I never claimed they pay for everything. You love to jump to conclusions and get all preachy.
Starting a team and funding it is a great thing, good job on you. I love esports and want more teams (for liquid to stomp). This doesn't mean everyone is going to love you all the time. People are going to write negative things, get over it. And further more if you want to help esports don't throw other teams jut trying to make it, like you, under the bus.
It's really too bad you come off like such a dink whenever you post because many of your actions have been so positive.
The only reason I'm coming off as a dick to you is because I'm calling you out for posting bullshit on a forum about our team. It's all fun and games until someone comes along and tells you that you're wrong isn't it?
is it normal that i read all of your posts with your voice? i try to read it normally, but i just can't
On August 15 2013 01:46 FFGenerations wrote: sounds like 1) they make a loss of several $1000 by attending , and 2) that their player/s don't particularly feel comfortable with going/feel shitty . which is what the post said.
And they could not have foreseen this before because...?
5) The start date of GSTL Season 2.
this topic is now about the next GSTL
Can we make it about people that pretend to have inside knowledge of the scene and use it to criticise people that work in eSports? Because this thread is full of that.
You can't expect people not to be disappointed, and most of the time, people start 'pretending to have inside knowledge', because they have to resort to speculation because the PR is poor. Same reason why the lack of SC2 at MLG Colombus blew up.
You can be disappointed all you please but there's a difference between that and flat out attacking the organisation for perceived incompetence, dishonesty or whatever.
Frankly if we'd known it was acceptable to toss out the begging bowl like MVP, who evidently needed to do it despite having way more sponsors than we do, then maybe we'd have done that, but that wouldn't have solved the fact that 1/4 of our lineup is physically unfit to compete.
Wow you just lost all my respect, firing shots at MVP like that. However I will still support the players.
I guess the whole thing (ATC) was handled pretty bad by a lot of people.
1. Karont3 disq. They wanted to go on with Alternate.Socke, but were not allowed to do, also Vortix & Lucifron got in for Mouse ASAP, thats like swapping shirts in half-time superbowl.
2. It´s a worldwide Tournament, US/EU/KR. 1st prize is 11.500$ , 4th gets 3,500 (2000+1500) Pretty much of what I expect of 5 Tickets Korea - Germany and back + Hotel and Transport. So they could say, if we win, we will go out even and have a good time, if not we lose 6,5K for the lulz.
The work of Genna and TB is great. I love their effort to make a team. There might be miscommunication between ATC and Axiom, but I am pretty sure it could have been solved by a single E-Mail asking 5x1500 or 1x1500 for travel to finals. Also considering the AxiomAcer GSTL run.
Sad thing to say, SC2 is not generating enough interest to make ATC happen properly atm. (Bigger Pricepool, more money from sponsors more money for travel.) qq
I find it funny how even quazi internet celeberities get so mad at there fans.
I like how random forum posters pretend that people shitting on Axiom are somehow our fans.
I like how you can take one line from an entire post and try to twist it in your favor.
Maybe you are new to entertainment, but whether people cheer for your team or cheer against it there eyeballs help you pay your bills. From most of your posts, however, I feel like you are more interested in having your ego stroked.
I'm sorry but I can't take this seriously when I pay more for the team every month than all our sponsors put together. Oh man, you have the audacity to claim somehow that you guys are the ones paying the bills.
No see, I'm looking at my bank account right now and it's pretty clear who is paying the bills.
Again to quote my self, since you seem to have trouble reading "help pay your bills" Are you argueing that people who watch your team do not help you at all financially? If so my bad. Also, I never claimed I paid your bills. I support team Liquid and cheer against everyone else.
I never claimed they pay for everything. You love to jump to conclusions and get all preachy.
Starting a team and funding it is a great thing, good job on you. I love esports and want more teams (for liquid to stomp). This doesn't mean everyone is going to love you all the time. People are going to write negative things, get over it. And further more if you want to help esports don't throw other teams jut trying to make it, like you, under the bus.
It's really too bad you come off like such a dink whenever you post because many of your actions have been so positive.
The only reason I'm coming off as a dick to you is because I'm calling you out for posting bullshit on a forum about our team. It's all fun and games until someone comes along and tells you that you're wrong isn't it?
Your comming off as a dick cause your insulting people and throwing other teams under the bus. Filter my comments I never insulted your team, I said you were crazy to react so hurt to the expected response.
I(and a couple other people in the thread) just think he is coming off as really funny and only really being a dick to you. And the way you are posting, you are kinda asking for it a bit
Alright, I'm gonna wrap this up with my opinion on how ridiculous the hate Axiom is getting is.
My view on this is frankly pragmatic. Take and ATC are not suffering in any way. Millenium was confirmed as our replacement some time ago in private, which has been announced today. The roster has not suffered and the tournament will happen as normal, just like any other tournament that has a cancellation and has to find substitutes. Millenium are popular and will no doubt bring in the French crowd that otherwise might not have watched the event, balancing out the lost numbers from Axiom players not participating. The net cost to Take and ATC is zero, who are still paying out the same regardless, they are just paying it out to a different team. The tournament will go ahead as planned with a roster change, there is no disruption to the event.
On Axioms side, we have provided the following. 14 weeks of competition at unholy hours of the night for our players with no prize money. Our players have essentially worked hard for something they will no longer receive. Our sponsors will not receive exposure in the finals as we had hoped, so they are losing out. The team in general suffers, the tournament does not. ATC also received many hours of free casting from myself and the sponsors benefited from that significantly, with views 3-5x higher on average than the other English streams and an additional 20-30,000 views per series from VoDs hosted on the TotalBiscuit Starcraft Youtube channel, giving exceptional sponsor ROI Acer and Intel that would otherwise not have existed. Teams also received sponsor ROI due to use of the virtual jersey in all matches, software we developed specifically to help everyone.
So, after all that, my opinion of this is that the backlash on Axiom is unwarranted and makes little logical sense, when Axiom are the ones who put a lot into this tournament and are suffering due to a combination of unforeseen and unfortunate circumstances. If anything I would have hoped for support from the community in a difficult time for the team, but for the most part it seems that will not be happening. As always, we will endure that and push on regardless.
On August 15 2013 03:09 TotalBiscuit wrote: Alright, I'm gonna wrap this up with my opinion on how ridiculous the hate Axiom is getting is.
My view on this is frankly pragmatic. Take and ATC are not suffering in any way. Millenium was confirmed as our replacement some time ago in private, which has been announced today. The roster has not suffered and the tournament will happen as normal, just like any other tournament that has a cancellation and has to find substitutes. Millenium are popular and will no doubt bring in the French crowd that otherwise might not have watched the event, balancing out the lost numbers from Axiom players not participating. The net cost to Take and ATC is zero, who are still paying out the same regardless, they are just paying it out to a different team. The tournament will go ahead as planned with a roster change, there is no disruption to the event.
On Axioms side, we have provided the following. 14 weeks of competition at unholy hours of the night for our players with no prize money. Our players have essentially worked hard for something they will no longer receive. Our sponsors will not receive exposure in the finals as we had hoped, so they are losing out. The team in general suffers, the tournament does not. ATC also received many hours of free casting from myself and the sponsors benefited from that significantly, with views 3-5x higher on average than the other English streams and an additional 20-30,000 views per series from VoDs hosted on the TotalBiscuit Starcraft Youtube channel, giving exceptional sponsor ROI Acer and Intel that would otherwise not have existed. Teams also received sponsor ROI due to use of the virtual jersey in all matches, software we developed specifically to help everyone.
So, after all that, my opinion of this is that the backlash on Axiom is unwarranted and makes little logical sense, when Axiom are the ones who put a lot into this tournament and are suffering due to a combination of unforeseen and unfortunate circumstances. If anything I would have hoped for support from the community in a difficult time for the team, but for the most part it seems that will not be happening. As always, we will endure that and push on regardless.
I like Axiom a lot more after reading this thread.
I find it funny how even quazi internet celeberities get so mad at there fans.
I like how random forum posters pretend that people shitting on Axiom are somehow our fans.
I like how you can take one line from an entire post and try to twist it in your favor.
Maybe you are new to entertainment, but whether people cheer for your team or cheer against it there eyeballs help you pay your bills. From most of your posts, however, I feel like you are more interested in having your ego stroked.
I'm sorry but I can't take this seriously when I pay more for the team every month than all our sponsors put together. Oh man, you have the audacity to claim somehow that you guys are the ones paying the bills.
No see, I'm looking at my bank account right now and it's pretty clear who is paying the bills.
Again to quote my self, since you seem to have trouble reading "help pay your bills" Are you argueing that people who watch your team do not help you at all financially? If so my bad. Also, I never claimed I paid your bills. I support team Liquid and cheer against everyone else.
I never claimed they pay for everything. You love to jump to conclusions and get all preachy.
Starting a team and funding it is a great thing, good job on you. I love esports and want more teams (for liquid to stomp). This doesn't mean everyone is going to love you all the time. People are going to write negative things, get over it. And further more if you want to help esports don't throw other teams jut trying to make it, like you, under the bus.
It's really too bad you come off like such a dink whenever you post because many of your actions have been so positive.
The only reason I'm coming off as a dick to you is because I'm calling you out for posting bullshit on a forum about our team. It's all fun and games until someone comes along and tells you that you're wrong isn't it?
is it normal that i read all of your posts with your voice? i try to read it normally, but i just can't
I do the same thing. I hear TB's voice when I read his comments, haha.
On August 15 2013 02:49 renaissanceMAN wrote: This JimmiC kid getting destroyed by tb.
Its fun to watch. I like his excuses of “OMG TB your such a passive aggressive(TB is mostly aggressive) drama queen. You should EXPECT me to jump on the hate train when you make an announcement I don’t like. This is the internet and hating on people is what we do. I man, seriously, why would you disrespect your fans(the fans are watching TB rip him apart and feel totally respected) by posting this crap. Your so fake famous.”
Its pretty funny, though I bet the guy doesn’t even know its funny.
I think it's funny that you are such a fanboy you just agree with tb. He's mad at others and responding to me. I never talked bad about axiom. Read my posts. Different senses of humor I guess. Or at least perspectives.
Fanboy is the word people use to describe someone when they lost the argument on the internet. Its like “white knight”, it means nothing and is just some cheap ad hominine attack for people who have run out of things to say.
I am a fan of TB, though I don’t agree with everything he says and he does shoot his mouth of from time to time. However, I find that refreshing and think people need to be called out of there BS every once and a while. I like their team and I was sad they had to drop out of the finals. But I am also an adult and know that stuff like this happens in life and things come up unexpectedly. The people posting “but couldn’t they have known before hand” either lack life experience or have unreasonable expectations of what people can predict. Shit happens and people who claim it is unprofessional are just taking cheap shots because they can. And I think it is good that TB calls them out on it and I like how aggressive he is about it. It means that he gives a shit.
On August 15 2013 03:09 TotalBiscuit wrote: Alright, I'm gonna wrap this up with my opinion on how ridiculous the hate Axiom is getting is.
My view on this is frankly pragmatic. Take and ATC are not suffering in any way. Millenium was confirmed as our replacement some time ago in private, which has been announced today. The roster has not suffered and the tournament will happen as normal, just like any other tournament that has a cancellation and has to find substitutes. Millenium are popular and will no doubt bring in the French crowd that otherwise might not have watched the event, balancing out the lost numbers from Axiom players not participating. The net cost to Take and ATC is zero, who are still paying out the same regardless, they are just paying it out to a different team. The tournament will go ahead as planned with a roster change, there is no disruption to the event.
On Axioms side, we have provided the following. 14 weeks of competition at unholy hours of the night for our players with no prize money. Our players have essentially worked hard for something they will no longer receive. Our sponsors will not receive exposure in the finals as we had hoped, so they are losing out. The team in general suffers, the tournament does not. ATC also received many hours of free casting from myself and the sponsors benefited from that significantly, with views 3-5x higher on average than the other English streams and an additional 20-30,000 views per series from VoDs hosted on the TotalBiscuit Starcraft Youtube channel, giving exceptional sponsor ROI Acer and Intel that would otherwise not have existed. Teams also received sponsor ROI due to use of the virtual jersey in all matches, software we developed specifically to help everyone.
So, after all that, my opinion of this is that the backlash on Axiom is unwarranted and makes little logical sense, when Axiom are the ones who put a lot into this tournament and are suffering due to a combination of unforeseen and unfortunate circumstances. If anything I would have hoped for support from the community in a difficult time for the team, but for the most part it seems that will not be happening. As always, we will endure that and push on regardless.
TB, sell a t-shirt or something else related to the team and you have two sales. Just make sure it comes it itty-bitty girls sizes or I can’t get my girlfriend one without getting in trouble(never buy oversized cloths for your girlfriend).
On August 15 2013 03:09 TotalBiscuit wrote: Alright, I'm gonna wrap this up with my opinion on how ridiculous the hate Axiom is getting is.
My view on this is frankly pragmatic. Take and ATC are not suffering in any way. Millenium was confirmed as our replacement some time ago in private, which has been announced today. The roster has not suffered and the tournament will happen as normal, just like any other tournament that has a cancellation and has to find substitutes. Millenium are popular and will no doubt bring in the French crowd that otherwise might not have watched the event, balancing out the lost numbers from Axiom players not participating. The net cost to Take and ATC is zero, who are still paying out the same regardless, they are just paying it out to a different team. The tournament will go ahead as planned with a roster change, there is no disruption to the event.
On Axioms side, we have provided the following. 14 weeks of competition at unholy hours of the night for our players with no prize money. Our players have essentially worked hard for something they will no longer receive. Our sponsors will not receive exposure in the finals as we had hoped, so they are losing out. The team in general suffers, the tournament does not. ATC also received many hours of free casting from myself and the sponsors benefited from that significantly, with views 3-5x higher on average than the other English streams and an additional 20-30,000 views per series from VoDs hosted on the TotalBiscuit Starcraft Youtube channel, giving exceptional sponsor ROI Acer and Intel that would otherwise not have existed. Teams also received sponsor ROI due to use of the virtual jersey in all matches, software we developed specifically to help everyone.
So, after all that, my opinion of this is that the backlash on Axiom is unwarranted and makes little logical sense, when Axiom are the ones who put a lot into this tournament and are suffering due to a combination of unforeseen and unfortunate circumstances. If anything I would have hoped for support from the community in a difficult time for the team, but for the most part it seems that will not be happening. As always, we will endure that and push on regardless.
If you said that, and released all the info at the same time as the announcement, Axiom would have been the recipient of a lot less 'hate'.
(I don't really think it's hate, it's just disappointment and most people got annoyed because of speculation they had to resort to due to lack of information available until TaKe posted his own statement. Remember that when Genna announced it, people here weren't even informed that Millenium would be definitely replacing. I believe the 'hate' could have been mostly avoided if you let TaKe go ahead with the announcement first, or published the detailed reasons that have now come out, and if you didn't take a swing at MVP)
On August 15 2013 03:09 TotalBiscuit wrote: Alright, I'm gonna wrap this up with my opinion on how ridiculous the hate Axiom is getting is.
My view on this is frankly pragmatic. Take and ATC are not suffering in any way. Millenium was confirmed as our replacement some time ago in private, which has been announced today. The roster has not suffered and the tournament will happen as normal, just like any other tournament that has a cancellation and has to find substitutes. Millenium are popular and will no doubt bring in the French crowd that otherwise might not have watched the event, balancing out the lost numbers from Axiom players not participating. The net cost to Take and ATC is zero, who are still paying out the same regardless, they are just paying it out to a different team. The tournament will go ahead as planned with a roster change, there is no disruption to the event.
On Axioms side, we have provided the following. 14 weeks of competition at unholy hours of the night for our players with no prize money. Our players have essentially worked hard for something they will no longer receive. Our sponsors will not receive exposure in the finals as we had hoped, so they are losing out. The team in general suffers, the tournament does not. ATC also received many hours of free casting from myself and the sponsors benefited from that significantly, with views 3-5x higher on average than the other English streams and an additional 20-30,000 views per series from VoDs hosted on the TotalBiscuit Starcraft Youtube channel, giving exceptional sponsor ROI Acer and Intel that would otherwise not have existed. Teams also received sponsor ROI due to use of the virtual jersey in all matches, software we developed specifically to help everyone.
So, after all that, my opinion of this is that the backlash on Axiom is unwarranted and makes little logical sense, when Axiom are the ones who put a lot into this tournament and are suffering due to a combination of unforeseen and unfortunate circumstances. If anything I would have hoped for support from the community in a difficult time for the team, but for the most part it seems that will not be happening. As always, we will endure that and push on regardless.
holy shit are you taking pr lessons from sundance? did noone in you support group tell you that some posters on reddit and the tl forum, dont make up the whole community? your posting behavior reminds me of something the farcry 3 villian said. Anyways the content you produce is greate, your team has a lot of enjoyable players and maybe someday you will get someone to handle your pr. that would be nice.
On August 15 2013 03:24 BlueFlames wrote: holy shit are you taking pr lessons from sundance? did noone in you support group tell you that some posters on reddit and the tl forum, dont make up the whole community? your posting behavior reminds me of something the farcry 3 villian said. Anyways the content you produce is greate, your team has a lot of enjoyable players and maybe someday you will get someone to handle your pr. that would be nice.
They have no money to travel and they need more players. At this time to say they need a PR guy is dumb. The money they have should go to supporting the players they have now, and finding more to round out their roster. A lot of the stuff said by TB's post seems pretty obvious to me, I don't understand why others don't see it that way.
On August 15 2013 03:09 TotalBiscuit wrote: Alright, I'm gonna wrap this up with my opinion on how ridiculous the hate Axiom is getting is.
My view on this is frankly pragmatic. Take and ATC are not suffering in any way. Millenium was confirmed as our replacement some time ago in private, which has been announced today. The roster has not suffered and the tournament will happen as normal, just like any other tournament that has a cancellation and has to find substitutes. Millenium are popular and will no doubt bring in the French crowd that otherwise might not have watched the event, balancing out the lost numbers from Axiom players not participating. The net cost to Take and ATC is zero, who are still paying out the same regardless, they are just paying it out to a different team. The tournament will go ahead as planned with a roster change, there is no disruption to the event.
On Axioms side, we have provided the following. 14 weeks of competition at unholy hours of the night for our players with no prize money. Our players have essentially worked hard for something they will no longer receive. Our sponsors will not receive exposure in the finals as we had hoped, so they are losing out. The team in general suffers, the tournament does not. ATC also received many hours of free casting from myself and the sponsors benefited from that significantly, with views 3-5x higher on average than the other English streams and an additional 20-30,000 views per series from VoDs hosted on the TotalBiscuit Starcraft Youtube channel, giving exceptional sponsor ROI Acer and Intel that would otherwise not have existed. Teams also received sponsor ROI due to use of the virtual jersey in all matches, software we developed specifically to help everyone.
So, after all that, my opinion of this is that the backlash on Axiom is unwarranted and makes little logical sense, when Axiom are the ones who put a lot into this tournament and are suffering due to a combination of unforeseen and unfortunate circumstances. If anything I would have hoped for support from the community in a difficult time for the team, but for the most part it seems that will not be happening. As always, we will endure that and push on regardless.
holy shit are you taking pr lessons from sundance? did noone in you support group tell you that some posters on reddit and the tl forum, dont make up the whole community? your posting behavior reminds me of something the farcry 3 villian said. Anyways the content you produce is greate, your team has a lot of enjoyable players and maybe someday you will get someone to handle your pr. that would be nice.
Didn't someone tell you that when he talks about people he don't literary mean everyone either? Also he's built a brand of doing this very thing, and he's been doing it for years. He don't need you to tell him how to act in public, like it or not.
I was quite disappointed at first (as the announcement was so close to the final date and there was little news). As news continued to break I'm satisfied with the outcome and looking forward to the live event!
Best of luck to Axiom going forward.
On August 15 2013 03:24 Waxangel wrote: Liquid the hidden winners, avoiding the semi-final nightmare match of Team MVP (assuming all seeds are bumped up one level)
TL paid Axiom to withdraw?? Good thing I just sharpened my pitchfork!
On August 15 2013 01:46 FFGenerations wrote: sounds like 1) they make a loss of several $1000 by attending , and 2) that their player/s don't particularly feel comfortable with going/feel shitty . which is what the post said.
And they could not have foreseen this before because...?
Things we could not have foreseen
1) WCS. Acer Teamstory Cup began before WCS even existed
2) CranKs injury getting to the point where he would have to do some serious recoup prior to Season 2 GSTL.
3) Having 4 players instead of 5 after Miya retired and being unable to hire another Zerg
4) Travelocity and Kayak fucking us out of several thousand dollars to the point where our travel budget was depleted way before it should have been.
If even I knew long before the league started that they'd get $1.500 for traveling if they qualified, how could they not? ATC made it clear from the beginning and it's the team manager's job to get all the necessary information before they sign up for the leage.
This is bollocks. Don't pretend to know more than you really do. You literally have no idea what's been going on behind the scenes, stop fucking pretending.
Having only three uninjured players is a good reason, I don't think anybody would be resentful knowing that. Personally, I didn't know Crank's injury was that bad during my posting.
However in what regards is it bollocks expecting the manager of a team to know the terms of the competition the team enters, especially since they were publically available?
On August 15 2013 03:24 BlueFlames wrote: holy shit are you taking pr lessons from sundance? did noone in you support group tell you that some posters on reddit and the tl forum, dont make up the whole community? your posting behavior reminds me of something the farcry 3 villian said. Anyways the content you produce is greate, your team has a lot of enjoyable players and maybe someday you will get someone to handle your pr. that would be nice.
PR, short for Pandering Repeatedly
How much would it cost to hire someone to do the pr for all the stuff you do, and how much time would you gain by that? Just curious.
On August 15 2013 03:09 TotalBiscuit wrote: Alright, I'm gonna wrap this up with my opinion on how ridiculous the hate Axiom is getting is.
My view on this is frankly pragmatic. Take and ATC are not suffering in any way. Millenium was confirmed as our replacement some time ago in private, which has been announced today. The roster has not suffered and the tournament will happen as normal, just like any other tournament that has a cancellation and has to find substitutes. Millenium are popular and will no doubt bring in the French crowd that otherwise might not have watched the event, balancing out the lost numbers from Axiom players not participating. The net cost to Take and ATC is zero, who are still paying out the same regardless, they are just paying it out to a different team. The tournament will go ahead as planned with a roster change, there is no disruption to the event.
On Axioms side, we have provided the following. 14 weeks of competition at unholy hours of the night for our players with no prize money. Our players have essentially worked hard for something they will no longer receive. Our sponsors will not receive exposure in the finals as we had hoped, so they are losing out. The team in general suffers, the tournament does not. ATC also received many hours of free casting from myself and the sponsors benefited from that significantly, with views 3-5x higher on average than the other English streams and an additional 20-30,000 views per series from VoDs hosted on the TotalBiscuit Starcraft Youtube channel, giving exceptional sponsor ROI Acer and Intel that would otherwise not have existed. Teams also received sponsor ROI due to use of the virtual jersey in all matches, software we developed specifically to help everyone.
So, after all that, my opinion of this is that the backlash on Axiom is unwarranted and makes little logical sense, when Axiom are the ones who put a lot into this tournament and are suffering due to a combination of unforeseen and unfortunate circumstances. If anything I would have hoped for support from the community in a difficult time for the team, but for the most part it seems that will not be happening. As always, we will endure that and push on regardless.
If you said that, and released all the info at the same time as the announcement, Axiom would have been the recipient of a lot less 'hate'.
(I don't really think it's hate, it's just disappointment and most people got annoyed because of speculation they had to resort to due to lack of information available until TaKe posted his own statement. Remember that when Genna announced it, people here weren't even informed that Millenium would be definitely replacing. I believe the 'hate' could have been mostly avoided if you let TaKe go ahead with the announcement first, or published the detailed reasons that have now come out, and if you didn't take a swing at MVP)
On August 15 2013 03:43 Waxangel wrote: no amount of money can replace the enjoyment of being mean to people on the internet
How much do you want to ban TB from TL and enjoy the subsequent hissy fit that would happen ?
I am totally willing to start a collect on this !
On August 15 2013 03:22 mikkmagro wrote:Remember that when Genna announced it, people here weren't even informed that Millenium would be definitely replacing
A person like you would have guessed though. They all live in Europe (bar ForGG but he is coming back soon), were in the mix up until the very end and can afford almost any deplacement - even more so if they have streaming rights.
On August 15 2013 03:43 Waxangel wrote: no amount of money can replace the enjoyment of being mean to people on the internet
Stop sniping at TB
You have it backwards, Wax lives for when TB posts. His mouth waters for the drama and amusement that will follow. He would have summoned him earlier if possible, but lacks such magic powers.
On August 15 2013 03:43 Waxangel wrote: no amount of money can replace the enjoyment of being mean to people on the internet
Stop sniping at TB
But it's always amusing to see someone raise the sniping TB batsignal to see how fast he responds. The khaldor sniping batsignal is getting almost as strong as khaldor can be very quick to respond in some live report threads.
On August 15 2013 01:46 FFGenerations wrote: sounds like 1) they make a loss of several $1000 by attending , and 2) that their player/s don't particularly feel comfortable with going/feel shitty . which is what the post said.
And they could not have foreseen this before because...?
5) The start date of GSTL Season 2.
this topic is now about the next GSTL
Can we make it about people that pretend to have inside knowledge of the scene and use it to criticise people that work in eSports? Because this thread is full of that.
You can't expect people not to be disappointed, and most of the time, people start 'pretending to have inside knowledge', because they have to resort to speculation because the PR is poor. Same reason why the lack of SC2 at MLG Colombus blew up.
You can be disappointed all you please but there's a difference between that and flat out attacking the organisation for perceived incompetence, dishonesty or whatever.
Frankly if we'd known it was acceptable to toss out the begging bowl like MVP, who evidently needed to do it despite having way more sponsors than we do, then maybe we'd have done that, but that wouldn't have solved the fact that 1/4 of our lineup is physically unfit to compete.
Wow you just lost all my respect, firing shots at MVP like that. However I will still support the players.
I won't really commit to saying that the team will be 100% Korean but I would like the team to serve both TB and my hopes of bettering the state of eSports in Korea. At present many Korean SC2 players do not actually receive a salary or receive a small salary that does not really support a stable career.
- Axiom Team manager/"owner"
Frankly if we'd known it was acceptable to toss out the begging bowl like MVP, who evidently needed to do it despite having way more sponsors than we do, then maybe we'd have done that, but that wouldn't have solved the fact that 1/4 of our lineup is physically unfit to compete.
- Axiom PR guy
this was due to their international travel sponsor dropping support recently
- Team MVP
But then I'm also sure that TB knows exactly how much MVP get from their sponsors, and what the money is/can be used for as well. I'm sure he wouldn't be making any assumptions about MVP, doing the sort of thing he hates others doing. Mo sponsors, mo money! Let's ignore the fact that MVP is also more than just SC2, and the sponsors seem to sponsor all the MVP teams, such as the LoL teams. I'm sure all the MVP players get mega salaries and the state of Korean SC2 is much better than it was about a year ago when Axiom was created, and teams are closing down and holding fundraisers for kicks.
On August 15 2013 03:24 BlueFlames wrote: holy shit are you taking pr lessons from sundance? did noone in you support group tell you that some posters on reddit and the tl forum, dont make up the whole community? your posting behavior reminds me of something the farcry 3 villian said. Anyways the content you produce is greate, your team has a lot of enjoyable players and maybe someday you will get someone to handle your pr. that would be nice.
PR, short for Pandering Repeatedly
How much would it cost to hire someone to do the pr for all the stuff you do, and how much time would you gain by that? Just curious.
So you think that the popularity of a team is given by the level of political correctness used when talking about matters related to it? Nonsense. The fun and emotion created by TB's personal attachement far outshines anything what a faceless "PR professional" whose only point in life is not to offend anyone could ever create. Having a person who incites strong feelings and opinions in people is the best PR humanly possible - unless your target demograpics is 50 years old Brittish ladies of noble ancestry.
In SC2, I feel much stronger about players than teams. Axiom is a very rare exception (together with Liquid, EG and to lesser extend LG-IM and Prime - but that's also mainly based on players), almost wholy thanks to TB - OK, I also like how the whole Acer-Axiom is actually just Slayers Reborn and all the history behind the team, but still.
i don't blame tb for not showing. got burnt by travelocity 6K. and most of these tournaments don't pay until 2-3 months later anyway. look at IPL, don't even pay at all. tournaments need to start paying day 1 after the event is over.
On August 15 2013 03:24 BlueFlames wrote: holy shit are you taking pr lessons from sundance? did noone in you support group tell you that some posters on reddit and the tl forum, dont make up the whole community? your posting behavior reminds me of something the farcry 3 villian said. Anyways the content you produce is greate, your team has a lot of enjoyable players and maybe someday you will get someone to handle your pr. that would be nice.
PR, short for Pandering Repeatedly
How much would it cost to hire someone to do the pr for all the stuff you do, and how much time would you gain by that? Just curious.
So you think that the popularity of a team is given by the level of political correctness used when talking about matters related to it? Nonsense. The fun and emotion created by TB's personal attachement far outshines anything what a faceless "PR professional" whose only point in life is not to offend anyone could ever create. Having a person who incites strong feelings and opinions in people is the best PR humanly possible - unless your target demograpics is 50 years old Brittish ladies of noble ancestry.
In SC2, I feel much stronger about players than teams. Axiom is a very rare exception (together with Liquid, EG and to lesser extend LG-IM and Prime - but that's also mainly based on players), almost wholy thanks to TB - OK, I also like how the whole Acer-Axiom is actually just Slayers Reborn and all the history behind the team, but still.
That was not my point. I was just curious about the cost, because i would be willing to spent money on something, so that i could concentrate on doing things i enjoy, and i personally would not enjoy arguing with people people over the internet. And as a side note, a pr-agent does not have to be someone steril and faceless. But they free up a lot of your time and you dont get shit at you thrown directly. You can concentrate on doing your job and earning money, while someone else, who has not the same attachment to that work, can deal with the public opinion. Those people will be far less likely to get emotional when critized and so on. Not my money and not my decisions, i was just curious how much it would cost.
On August 15 2013 03:24 BlueFlames wrote: holy shit are you taking pr lessons from sundance? did noone in you support group tell you that some posters on reddit and the tl forum, dont make up the whole community? your posting behavior reminds me of something the farcry 3 villian said. Anyways the content you produce is greate, your team has a lot of enjoyable players and maybe someday you will get someone to handle your pr. that would be nice.
PR, short for Pandering Repeatedly
How much would it cost to hire someone to do the pr for all the stuff you do, and how much time would you gain by that? Just curious.
So you think that the popularity of a team is given by the level of political correctness used when talking about matters related to it? Nonsense. The fun and emotion created by TB's personal attachement far outshines anything what a faceless "PR professional" whose only point in life is not to offend anyone could ever create. Having a person who incites strong feelings and opinions in people is the best PR humanly possible - unless your target demograpics is 50 years old Brittish ladies of noble ancestry.
In SC2, I feel much stronger about players than teams. Axiom is a very rare exception (together with Liquid, EG and to lesser extend LG-IM and Prime - but that's also mainly based on players), almost wholy thanks to TB - OK, I also like how the whole Acer-Axiom is actually just Slayers Reborn and all the history behind the team, but still.
That was not my point. I was just curious about the cost, because i would be willing to spent money on something, so that i could concentrate on doing things i enjoy, and i personally would not enjoy arguing with people people over the internet. And as a side note, a pr-agent does not have to be someone steril and faceless. But they free up a lot of your time and you dont get shit at you thrown directly. You can concentrate on doing your job and earning money, while someone else, who has not the same attachment to that work, can deal with the public opinion. Those people will be far less likely to get emotional when critized and so on. Not my money and not my decisions, i was just curious how much it would cost.
Maybe I also have to clarify my point - I think that it would cost a lot in terms of the popularity of the team. It is very difficult to imagine that there is someone to hire who would do better PR than one of the best known personalities of the scene.
First i was shocked, the headlines should include that millenium is already replacing axiom.
so thats a big relief. I dont particulary like Axiom and TB anyhow and Millenium is a more interesting team by far. Mvp already represents the korean teams. So overall im pretty happy with the outcome.
I just dont like the way it happened. Or even that it happened at all. because it clearly didnt have to happen. The reasons i hear seem very weak to me.
It is quite nice of ATC to provide for accomodation and 1500$ for travels. Because the standard in esports is 0 money from event organizers for travels. How someone gets to the understanding that they pay everything.. its totally unexplainable to me. It was very clearly communicated.
So you tell me you enter in a competition without reading the rules properly and without sufficient players to compete if one happens to be unavailable. At least use the "joker" rule to get an additional player. That just doesnt sound like the management is very qualified.
Also complaining about travel costs... thats the business. Especially if you dont focus on a region but try to be everywhere at once.
On August 15 2013 03:24 BlueFlames wrote: holy shit are you taking pr lessons from sundance? did noone in you support group tell you that some posters on reddit and the tl forum, dont make up the whole community? your posting behavior reminds me of something the farcry 3 villian said. Anyways the content you produce is greate, your team has a lot of enjoyable players and maybe someday you will get someone to handle your pr. that would be nice.
PR, short for Pandering Repeatedly
How much would it cost to hire someone to do the pr for all the stuff you do, and how much time would you gain by that? Just curious.
So you think that the popularity of a team is given by the level of political correctness used when talking about matters related to it? Nonsense. The fun and emotion created by TB's personal attachement far outshines anything what a faceless "PR professional" whose only point in life is not to offend anyone could ever create. Having a person who incites strong feelings and opinions in people is the best PR humanly possible - unless your target demograpics is 50 years old Brittish ladies of noble ancestry.
In SC2, I feel much stronger about players than teams. Axiom is a very rare exception (together with Liquid, EG and to lesser extend LG-IM and Prime - but that's also mainly based on players), almost wholy thanks to TB - OK, I also like how the whole Acer-Axiom is actually just Slayers Reborn and all the history behind the team, but still.
That was not my point. I was just curious about the cost, because i would be willing to spent money on something, so that i could concentrate on doing things i enjoy, and i personally would not enjoy arguing with people people over the internet. And as a side note, a pr-agent does not have to be someone steril and faceless. But they free up a lot of your time and you dont get shit at you thrown directly. You can concentrate on doing your job and earning money, while someone else, who has not the same attachment to that work, can deal with the public opinion. Those people will be far less likely to get emotional when critized and so on. Not my money and not my decisions, i was just curious how much it would cost.
Maybe I also have to clarify my point - I think that it would cost a lot in terms of the popularity of the team. It is very difficult to imagine that there is someone to hire who would do better PR than one of the best known personalities of the scene.
Thats a good point. To be honest i did not think about it in that way. You are right and i dont know what would be a good decision in this case, considering its actually gennas team and tb is the one that is always associated with it.
On August 15 2013 05:09 SpikeStarcraft wrote: First i was shocked, the headlines should include that millenium is already replacing axiom.
so thats a big relief. I dont particulary like Axiom and TB anyhow and Millenium is a more interesting team by far. Mvp already represents the korean teams. So overall im pretty happy with the outcome.
I just dont like the way it happened. Or even that it happened at all. because it clearly didnt have to happen. The reasons i hear seem very weak to me.
It is quite nice of ATC to provide for accomodation and 1500$ for travels. Because the standard in esports is 0 money from event organizers for travels. How someone gets to the understanding that they pay everything.. its totally unexplainable to me. It was very clearly communicated.
So you tell me you enter in a competition without reading the rules properly and without sufficient players to compete if one happens to be unavailable. At least use the "joker" rule to get an additional player. That just doesnt sound like the management is very qualified.
Also complaining about travel costs... thats the business. Especially if you dont focus on a region but try to be everywhere at once.
Summed up: Bad PR and bad management for axiom.
Pls read TB's summaries. You are just proving his point of people posting stuff and accusations they don't really know anything about...
They could not have known about Miya's retirement or Cranks injury, and they are certainly not accountable for travelocity screwing up so badly...
On August 15 2013 02:49 renaissanceMAN wrote: This JimmiC kid getting destroyed by tb.
Its fun to watch. I like his excuses of “OMG TB your such a passive aggressive(TB is mostly aggressive) drama queen. You should EXPECT me to jump on the hate train when you make an announcement I don’t like. This is the internet and hating on people is what we do. I man, seriously, why would you disrespect your fans(the fans are watching TB rip him apart and feel totally respected) by posting this crap. Your so fake famous.”
Its pretty funny, though I bet the guy doesn’t even know its funny.
I think it's funny that you are such a fanboy you just agree with tb. He's mad at others and responding to me. I never talked bad about axiom. Read my posts. Different senses of humor I guess. Or at least perspectives.
Fanboy is the word people use to describe someone when they lost the argument on the internet. Its like “white knight”, it means nothing and is just some cheap ad hominine attack for people who have run out of things to say.
I am a fan of TB, though I don’t agree with everything he says and he does shoot his mouth of from time to time. However, I find that refreshing and think people need to be called out of there BS every once and a while. I like their team and I was sad they had to drop out of the finals. But I am also an adult and know that stuff like this happens in life and things come up unexpectedly. The people posting “but couldn’t they have known before hand” either lack life experience or have unreasonable expectations of what people can predict. Shit happens and people who claim it is unprofessional are just taking cheap shots because they can. And I think it is good that TB calls them out on it and I like how aggressive he is about it. It means that he gives a shit.
You're a fan boy because clearly neither you or TB read my posts. I never isulted Axiom. I did insult him once he made the completly unwarrented shot at MVP. Which you are clearly ignoring because of your fanboyness. I wasn't the only one to notice it. 5-10 other posters put up comments. The fact that TB decided to unload on me is his choice and I find it funny since he was mad at people making assumptions, and he made a whole load of assumptions about me. I simply posted that he shouldn't be shocked that people were pissed he pulled out of a tournement 3 days before it started. Heck if liquid did I would be sad that I didn't get to see them play and I'ma huge fan of theres. The guy is totally arrogant, a narcissist and hypocritical, complete blind spot towards himself. If he had any sense he would have posted what he did at the end instead of after acting like a jackass and he would have came off well. (I'm refering to his last long post)
You started by completely strawman his post about MVP. You completely miss his point with that post and then get defensive when he questions you. Wonder why... And it's kind of funny how you accuse him of making assumptions about you when you have made a whole bunch more of assumptions about him. Not to mention your labeling of other posters as "fanboys" for no valid reason.
On August 15 2013 04:48 JimmiC wrote: He's one of those guys that creates issues then is all "woah is me, how come this always happens to me?" When has nazgul had a internet shit storm? Or insulted people on a forum? He doesn't because he is a professional and understands it's a business. I'm sure he thinks a ton of people are idiots, but he instead writes well thought out posts in a professional manner that show his postition on the issue. He states the why, wiht nothing passive agressive, or "But Johnny did it too only worse".
Your point? Other than more assumptions about TB's and Nazgul's inner workings.
On August 15 2013 04:48 JimmiC wrote: I also understand why you think TB destroyed me. Because you love him and just beleive what he says to be true, and thats fine. Unlike him I expected that because it was obviously going to happen. He is a internet celeberity and I am an internet nobody. If someone else with a name wrote exactly what I did, I suspoect your opinion would change. But seriously go back, read all my posts. (It's easy hit filter. If you can't, pay TL some money and gain the feature) I don't bash them, I say its crazy that TB is all shocked and offended by what was a completly predictible reaction, esspecially given the information that was released. If he knew another team was taking over for his spot he should have said that from the start. If he didn't know then the fact that millenium is stepping up doesn't make him better. It means great for Millenium stepping up, and I'm glad the ATC hopefully wasn't hurt. Hoepfully this brought more attention and more people will watch. More is better. You may have not noticed this but people are sensitive about the game "dying" or losing exposure, a team pulling out of the final is OF COURSE going to play to these sensitivities.
Another assumption about your fellow posters. (you know, the thing you don't like when other do about you). Also you are strawmanning TB's reaction again.
On August 15 2013 04:48 JimmiC wrote: To cancle participation in something, esspecially short notice, is going to garner a negative reaction from lots of people. Even if there is a sensible reason for this choice. And lets face facts it was a choice of Axiom and no fault of ATC. Was the choice sensible under the circumstances that happend? Many factors were out of there control. Perrhaps, thats up to perception of the expectations of teams. My expectation is that if you start something you finish it. There is risk on ATC's part when they opperate these tournements, they have costs that can increase, or change, teams can go out of business. If there main server died or whatever and cost them 6000 and they said "hey sorry guys our host is sick and our server went down, so doing this finals would cause us to lose money. Therefore we are going to not hold the finals" How do you think TB would react? How about the community? Because lets face it, even though it's sensible to you, that doesn't mean everyone agree's. And it's ok that they don't. I personlly feel teams and players have the same responsibility to follow through that tournments do. If you disagree thats fine.
A lot of mumbo jumbo without having any facts while still making a judgment to support your view.
On August 15 2013 04:48 JimmiC wrote: As the face of a francise, it would be smart, to give a postitive image of himself. He probably doesn't care but because of him I won't support his team, watch the games, buy his sponsers products and so on. Before I would have, now I will make a concerted effort not to.
Good for you? Good thing you are not everyone then.
On August 15 2013 04:48 JimmiC wrote: In his zeal to look cool infrount of his fan boys he turned a neutral party into some one who will go out of his way to not help him. And I was probably more then neutral since I think of my self as a general supporter of e-sports.
We get it, you don't approve of TB's actions. Want a cookie? Also you make an assumption than he acted the way he did to look "cool" in front of his fanboys (again the thing you didn't like when he did to you).
On August 15 2013 04:48 JimmiC wrote: I will however continue to support other teams and esports in general. I wish all the teams were run professionally and appropriotly by people who care more about there teams and business's then there own ego's. Congrats on Nazgul for being awesome.
I guess the "professionals" out there will have to give you that cookie.
On August 15 2013 05:09 SpikeStarcraft wrote: First i was shocked, the headlines should include that millenium is already replacing axiom.
so thats a big relief. I dont particulary like Axiom and TB anyhow and Millenium is a more interesting team by far. Mvp already represents the korean teams. So overall im pretty happy with the outcome.
I just dont like the way it happened. Or even that it happened at all. because it clearly didnt have to happen. The reasons i hear seem very weak to me.
It is quite nice of ATC to provide for accomodation and 1500$ for travels. Because the standard in esports is 0 money from event organizers for travels. How someone gets to the understanding that they pay everything.. its totally unexplainable to me. It was very clearly communicated.
So you tell me you enter in a competition without reading the rules properly and without sufficient players to compete if one happens to be unavailable. At least use the "joker" rule to get an additional player. That just doesnt sound like the management is very qualified.
Also complaining about travel costs... thats the business. Especially if you dont focus on a region but try to be everywhere at once.
Summed up: Bad PR and bad management for axiom.
Pls read TB's summaries. You are just proving his point of people posting stuff and accusations they don't really know anything about...
They could not have known about Miya's retirement or Cranks injury, and they are certainly not accountable for travelocity screwing up so badly...
nobody cares who you could blame for the situation. Blaming the circumstances.. good management finds solutions rather than complaining about everything all the time. Look at MVP. They dont pull out. If you are in a difficult situation, you do more to overcome it not less to evade it.
On August 15 2013 05:09 SpikeStarcraft wrote: First i was shocked, the headlines should include that millenium is already replacing axiom.
so thats a big relief. I dont particulary like Axiom and TB anyhow and Millenium is a more interesting team by far. Mvp already represents the korean teams. So overall im pretty happy with the outcome.
I just dont like the way it happened. Or even that it happened at all. because it clearly didnt have to happen. The reasons i hear seem very weak to me.
It is quite nice of ATC to provide for accomodation and 1500$ for travels. Because the standard in esports is 0 money from event organizers for travels. How someone gets to the understanding that they pay everything.. its totally unexplainable to me. It was very clearly communicated.
So you tell me you enter in a competition without reading the rules properly and without sufficient players to compete if one happens to be unavailable. At least use the "joker" rule to get an additional player. That just doesnt sound like the management is very qualified.
Also complaining about travel costs... thats the business. Especially if you dont focus on a region but try to be everywhere at once.
Summed up: Bad PR and bad management for axiom.
Pls read TB's summaries. You are just proving his point of people posting stuff and accusations they don't really know anything about...
They could not have known about Miya's retirement or Cranks injury, and they are certainly not accountable for travelocity screwing up so badly...
nobody cares who you could blame for the situation. Blaming the circumstances.. good management finds solutions rather than complaining about everything all the time. Look at MVP. They dont pull out. If you are in a difficult situation, you do more to overcome it not less to evade it.
And people who have never managed a team will tell you how to do it on the internet, so what else is new?
And they did find a solution, they didn’t go and a team replaced them, problem solved.
On August 15 2013 05:09 SpikeStarcraft wrote: the standard in esports is 0 money from event organizers for travels.
Actually this is bullshit. The standard for any offline portion of a teamleague is travel expenses covered, because good luck convincing a team to pay that much to attend.
Look at MVP. They dont pull out. If you are in a difficult situation, you do more to overcome it not less to evade it.
They put out the begging bowl. We foolishly assumed the community would not react well to asking them for money and would instead be understanding of the massive financial cost flying an entire team halfway across the planet would cost and the fact that since the start of ATC, circumstances have radically changed within both the team and the scene.
On August 15 2013 05:47 renaissanceMAN wrote: I don't care if TB is going to be my friend or not, why did you message me? Are you trying to make me feel bad?
He doesn’t like it that people disagree with him on the internet while also supporting a guy who has provided us with hours of entertainment at no cost to ourselves. He thinks you’re a fanboy because of that.
On August 15 2013 05:47 renaissanceMAN wrote: I don't care if TB is going to be my friend or not, why did you message me? Are you trying to make me feel bad?
He doesn’t like it that people disagree with him on the internet while also supporting a guy who has provided us with hours of entertainment at no cost to ourselves. He thinks you’re a fanboy because of that.
Not that I feel like I need to defend my opinion...
But I had no opinion of TB before this. (I didn't like Axiom, but only because of what had gone down with Slayers) I had read snippets that he was critical on a number of things related to running a team/organization, but other than that I knew he was a caster and his logo is a tophat (why?) I'm "supporting" him because I agree with what he said, not because I think he's going to friend me on facebook.
On August 15 2013 05:09 SpikeStarcraft wrote: the standard in esports is 0 money from event organizers for travels.
Actually this is bullshit. The standard for any offline portion of a teamleague is travel expenses covered, because good luck convincing a team to pay that much to attend.
Look at MVP. They dont pull out. If you are in a difficult situation, you do more to overcome it not less to evade it.
They put out the begging bowl. We foolishly assumed the community would not react well to asking them for money and would instead be understanding of the massive financial cost flying an entire team halfway across the planet would cost and the fact that since the start of ATC, circumstances have radically changed within both the team and the scene.
We were horribly mistaken.
1. so dreamhack or eg cover your travel expenses to bucharest?
2.MVP is not begging, they are offering entertainment in return.
On August 15 2013 05:09 SpikeStarcraft wrote: the standard in esports is 0 money from event organizers for travels.
Actually this is bullshit. The standard for any offline portion of a teamleague is travel expenses covered, because good luck convincing a team to pay that much to attend.
Look at MVP. They dont pull out. If you are in a difficult situation, you do more to overcome it not less to evade it.
They put out the begging bowl. We foolishly assumed the community would not react well to asking them for money and would instead be understanding of the massive financial cost flying an entire team halfway across the planet would cost and the fact that since the start of ATC, circumstances have radically changed within both the team and the scene.
We were horribly mistaken.
1. so dreamhack or eg cover your travel expenses to bucharest?
2.MVP is not begging, they are offering entertainment in return.
On August 15 2013 05:09 SpikeStarcraft wrote: the standard in esports is 0 money from event organizers for travels.
Actually this is bullshit. The standard for any offline portion of a teamleague is travel expenses covered, because good luck convincing a team to pay that much to attend.
Look at MVP. They dont pull out. If you are in a difficult situation, you do more to overcome it not less to evade it.
They put out the begging bowl. We foolishly assumed the community would not react well to asking them for money and would instead be understanding of the massive financial cost flying an entire team halfway across the planet would cost and the fact that since the start of ATC, circumstances have radically changed within both the team and the scene.
We were horribly mistaken.
1. so dreamhack or eg cover your travel expenses to bucharest?
2.MVP is not begging, they are offering entertainment in return.
Can you not read the words Team League? Or did you miss that part?
On August 15 2013 05:09 SpikeStarcraft wrote: the standard in esports is 0 money from event organizers for travels.
Actually this is bullshit. The standard for any offline portion of a teamleague is travel expenses covered, because good luck convincing a team to pay that much to attend.
Look at MVP. They dont pull out. If you are in a difficult situation, you do more to overcome it not less to evade it.
They put out the begging bowl. We foolishly assumed the community would not react well to asking them for money and would instead be understanding of the massive financial cost flying an entire team halfway across the planet would cost and the fact that since the start of ATC, circumstances have radically changed within both the team and the scene.
We were horribly mistaken.
1. so dreamhack or eg cover your travel expenses to bucharest?
2.MVP is not begging, they are offering entertainment in return.
Teamleague, the keyword is TEAMleague.
offline finals of sc2l is at dh bucharest. I think Axiom payed those flights. And i dont think GSTL covers intercontinental travel costs. So which teamleague does in fact pay? IPTL? yeah.. they must be the standard..
I haven't read all of this so I might be off base but I'm going to assume Axiom knew what amount of subsidies they'd receive from ATC and should have known before the LAN finals if they were able to go, should have known well before the event even begun.
Assuming Axiom knew the deal ahead of time they shouldn't have participated. I said the same thing about EG dota team not going to starladder finals. If you aren't going to pay-up to send your team to the LAN finals based on the agreements outlined by the event organizers, DONT PLAY IN THE EVENT.
If ATC didn't inform Axiom or Axiom were misinformed then that sucks and you can retract everything I said.
On August 15 2013 05:47 renaissanceMAN wrote: I don't care if TB is going to be my friend or not, why did you message me? Are you trying to make me feel bad?
He doesn’t like it that people disagree with him on the internet while also supporting a guy who has provided us with hours of entertainment at no cost to ourselves. He thinks you’re a fanboy because of that.
P.S. he's madder now that I posted about how he messaged me (and messaged me again).
On August 15 2013 02:49 renaissanceMAN wrote: This JimmiC kid getting destroyed by tb.
Its fun to watch. I like his excuses of “OMG TB your such a passive aggressive(TB is mostly aggressive) drama queen. You should EXPECT me to jump on the hate train when you make an announcement I don’t like. This is the internet and hating on people is what we do. I man, seriously, why would you disrespect your fans(the fans are watching TB rip him apart and feel totally respected) by posting this crap. Your so fake famous.”
Its pretty funny, though I bet the guy doesn’t even know its funny.
These posts are the worst I've read so far and that says a lot. How old are you, 12? Don't get me wrong; I'm not agreeing with JimmiC but what exactly is the purpose of these 2 posts?
On August 15 2013 05:09 SpikeStarcraft wrote: the standard in esports is 0 money from event organizers for travels.
Actually this is bullshit. The standard for any offline portion of a teamleague is travel expenses covered, because good luck convincing a team to pay that much to attend.
On August 15 2013 05:09 SpikeStarcraft wrote: Look at MVP. They dont pull out. If you are in a difficult situation, you do more to overcome it not less to evade it.
They put out the begging bowl. We foolishly assumed the community would not react well to asking them for money and would instead be understanding of the massive financial cost flying an entire team halfway across the planet would cost and the fact that since the start of ATC, circumstances have radically changed within both the team and the scene.
We were horribly mistaken.
If you're going to look down at what Team MVP did at least compare them to a street performer with a donation cup instead of a beggar.
On August 15 2013 05:47 renaissanceMAN wrote: I don't care if TB is going to be my friend or not, why did you message me? Are you trying to make me feel bad?
He doesn’t like it that people disagree with him on the internet while also supporting a guy who has provided us with hours of entertainment at no cost to ourselves. He thinks you’re a fanboy because of that.
P.S. he's madder now that I posted about how he messaged me (and messaged me again).
P.s. Not madder, Most people would just not like to read a flame war on the threads and would rather it be taken privately. You would rather try to impress your inet friends
I'm not friends with any of these people though...
On August 15 2013 02:49 renaissanceMAN wrote: This JimmiC kid getting destroyed by tb.
Its fun to watch. I like his excuses of “OMG TB your such a passive aggressive(TB is mostly aggressive) drama queen. You should EXPECT me to jump on the hate train when you make an announcement I don’t like. This is the internet and hating on people is what we do. I man, seriously, why would you disrespect your fans(the fans are watching TB rip him apart and feel totally respected) by posting this crap. Your so fake famous.”
Its pretty funny, though I bet the guy doesn’t even know its funny.
These posts are the worst I've read so far and that says a lot. How old are you, 12? Don't get me wrong; I'm not agreeing with JimmiC but what exactly is the purpose of these 2 posts?
I am 33 and enjoy watching people who have no idea what they are talking about get upset about things they don't understand and then getting yelled at for it.
Its the simple things in life. I also like going for walks and watching puppies fight over chew toys.
On August 15 2013 05:47 renaissanceMAN wrote: I don't care if TB is going to be my friend or not, why did you message me? Are you trying to make me feel bad?
He doesn’t like it that people disagree with him on the internet while also supporting a guy who has provided us with hours of entertainment at no cost to ourselves. He thinks you’re a fanboy because of that.
P.S. he's madder now that I posted about how he messaged me (and messaged me again).
P.s. Not madder, Most people would just not like to read a flame war on the threads and would rather it be taken privately. You would rather try to impress your inet friends
Stop sending messages to people that disagree with you. None of us are friends. We just all enjoy you making an ass of yourself.
On August 15 2013 06:18 Seeker wrote: One word describes this thread beautifully: popcorn
Want a bite ?
I don't like the MVP solution. I don't like the Axiom solution. I live with it by being happy for Millenium and sad for Axiom. That's it. Live with it instead of arguing. At least it was dealt with swiftly, with TaKe being aware and looking for a backup. Could have been worse.
I know this is a hard offtopic but I always disliked the idea of tournaments paying players/teams to come over. If their own sponsors are not interested in them showing up to an event to promote them why would the tournament have too?
Sad for Axiom ofc but again, I am just not a fan of tournaments paying more the the prize money. Hi at IPL
On August 15 2013 05:47 renaissanceMAN wrote: I don't care if TB is going to be my friend or not, why did you message me? Are you trying to make me feel bad?
He doesn’t like it that people disagree with him on the internet while also supporting a guy who has provided us with hours of entertainment at no cost to ourselves. He thinks you’re a fanboy because of that.
P.S. he's madder now that I posted about how he messaged me (and messaged me again).
P.s. Not madder, Most people would just not like to read a flame war on the threads and would rather it be taken privately. You would rather try to impress your inet friends
Stop sending messages to people that disagree with you. None of us are friends. We just all enjoy you making an ass of yourself.
We all, is you and 2 other guys. Most other people have posted in agreement with what I have said. They simply have done it unattached to my posts because TB singled me out and they rightfully assumed that some of his fanboys would join in.
I to am 33 but I don't get off on bullying. I try to respond to the points and what people actually say.
Its funny to me that you yourself posted that TB's post insulting MVP was a mistake, but then jump on my case.
I also believe that none of you are friends, (the lack of friends explains the need to fit in) just trying hard to make them not really knowing how.
Yes, because I managed to do it in a polite, respectful manner. Notice how he didn't freak out at me when he came in there. And I am not bullying you, I just don't see the reason for your problem with TB. He is acting as he always has.
And once again, calling people fanboys just becaue they disagree with you does not do anything for your case. I disagree with TB all the time, but that doesn't mean I'm a dick about it.
On August 15 2013 06:00 Gamegene wrote: will ForGG get a visa? >:O
He got it, he's back in France very very soon.
But we really don't know if Millenium will be able to get the SC2 squad together, only Adel is at the gaming house right now (plus ForGG joining him), all the others members are all around the world, it will be very difficult to get a decent roster... Looks like a job for super Lewellys! :D
On August 15 2013 06:00 Gamegene wrote: will ForGG get a visa? >:O
He got it, he's back in France very very soon.
But we really don't know if Millenium will be able to get the SC2 squad together, only Adel is at the gaming house right now (plus ForGG joining him), all the others members are all around the world, it will be very difficult to get a decent roster... Looks like a job for super Lewellys! :D
Roster is confirmed :
http://taketv.net/news/-12-08-13-7387 ForGG Dayshi Goswser ToD Adelscott
Dayshi even sits next to take on his ladder stream right now. :D
I can understand the Miya and Crank problems and those two are probably enough to skip going to the finals. i don't know if recruiting someone to fill up the spots has any meaning.
Its interesting to know if team leagues have covered expenses so far, yet that's not the point is it? As far as Axiom is concerned TAKE didn't inform them in a proper manner. Which is obviously stated here. "We were not directly made aware that teams would only receive $1500 for the entire team to travel from Korea to Germany until flights were ridiculously overpriced. ($1500 per team is comped by ATC, not per person)"
So blame TAKE not Axiom. If TAKE wasn't to blame he would have said so in his statement. Hes not stupid.
"There is not much time left to prepare for DreamHack Bucharest and we want to be in top condition."
Any important team would give up participating to a "minor" tournament to practice for a major one. Thats the way things work in all (e)sports. Also a major reason.
On August 15 2013 06:52 alphaproxy wrote: I can understand the Miya and Crank problems and those two are probably enough to skip going to the finals. i don't know if recruiting someone to fill up the spots has any meaning.
Its interesting to know if team leagues have covered expenses so far, yet that's not the point is it? As far as Axiom is concerned TAKE didn't inform them in a proper manner. Which is obviously stated here. "We were not directly made aware that teams would only receive $1500 for the entire team to travel from Korea to Germany until flights were ridiculously overpriced. ($1500 per team is comped by ATC, not per person)"
So blame TAKE not Axiom. If TAKE wasn't to blame he would have said so in his statement. Hes not stupid.
"There is not much time left to prepare for DreamHack Bucharest and we want to be in top condition."
Any important team would give up participating to a "minor" tournament to practice for a major one. Thats the way things work in all (e)sports. Also a major reason.
We cover 1500 Dollar travelexpenses to support the teams Plus! Hotels for the teams so that they don t have to pay all the costs!!! I hope this shows that we want to help the teams and we know its expensive to send 4-5 players!
I might be wrong but for me it's 1500 for the whole team.
On August 15 2013 05:47 renaissanceMAN wrote: I don't care if TB is going to be my friend or not, why did you message me? Are you trying to make me feel bad?
He doesn’t like it that people disagree with him on the internet while also supporting a guy who has provided us with hours of entertainment at no cost to ourselves. He thinks you’re a fanboy because of that.
P.S. he's madder now that I posted about how he messaged me (and messaged me again).
P.s. Not madder, Most people would just not like to read a flame war on the threads and would rather it be taken privately. You would rather try to impress your inet friends
Stop sending messages to people that disagree with you. None of us are friends. We just all enjoy you making an ass of yourself.
We all, is you and 2 other guys. Most other people have posted in agreement with what I have said. They simply have done it unattached to my posts because TB singled me out and they rightfully assumed that some of his fanboys would join in.
I to am 33 but I don't get off on bullying. I try to respond to the points and what people actually say.
Its funny to me that you yourself posted that TB's post insulting MVP was a mistake, but then jump on my case.
I also believe that none of you are friends, (the lack of friends explains the need to fit in) just trying hard to make them not really knowing how.
You may not bully, but you add in condescending shit and talk down to someone as if they don't know or consider things when they know way more than you and deserve your respect. Here are a few examples! -..then you must not be too bright -You should really stop posting cause you just look like a dink. -When you are a part of a competitive team you would be silly and naive to think that everyone is going to love you and accept your explanations. -You have to take into account the public relations -Maybe you are new to entertainment Keep in mind who you are talking to... Someone who has dumped a ton of their own money into the scene, casted multiple international events and has their own team of skilled and accomplished players. Show some respect and don't pretend like you're smarter when you don't know the whole situation, but still insist on using your hindsight to make it seem as though he doesn't consider his options or his PR.
Poorly handled IMO. Should be well aware of tournament rules (i.e compensation) and sought to get confirmation if it was unclear from the beginning. Also all planning should involve some sort of contingency if shit goes wrong.
On August 15 2013 06:52 alphaproxy wrote: I can understand the Miya and Crank problems and those two are probably enough to skip going to the finals. i don't know if recruiting someone to fill up the spots has any meaning.
Its interesting to know if team leagues have covered expenses so far, yet that's not the point is it? As far as Axiom is concerned TAKE didn't inform them in a proper manner. Which is obviously stated here. "We were not directly made aware that teams would only receive $1500 for the entire team to travel from Korea to Germany until flights were ridiculously overpriced. ($1500 per team is comped by ATC, not per person)"
So blame TAKE not Axiom. If TAKE wasn't to blame he would have said so in his statement. Hes not stupid.
"There is not much time left to prepare for DreamHack Bucharest and we want to be in top condition."
Any important team would give up participating to a "minor" tournament to practice for a major one. Thats the way things work in all (e)sports. Also a major reason.
We cover 1500 Dollar travelexpenses to support the teams Plus! Hotels for the teams so that they don t have to pay all the costs!!! I hope this shows that we want to help the teams and we know its expensive to send 4-5 players!
I might be wrong but for me it's 1500 for the whole team.
Sorry, the last 2 parts of my post were trollish. I can only understand the missing players reason.
On August 15 2013 02:49 renaissanceMAN wrote: This JimmiC kid getting destroyed by tb.
Its fun to watch. I like his excuses of “OMG TB your such a passive aggressive(TB is mostly aggressive) drama queen. You should EXPECT me to jump on the hate train when you make an announcement I don’t like. This is the internet and hating on people is what we do. I man, seriously, why would you disrespect your fans(the fans are watching TB rip him apart and feel totally respected) by posting this crap. Your so fake famous.”
Its pretty funny, though I bet the guy doesn’t even know its funny.
These posts are the worst I've read so far and that says a lot. How old are you, 12? Don't get me wrong; I'm not agreeing with JimmiC but what exactly is the purpose of these 2 posts?
I am 33 and enjoy watching people who have no idea what they are talking about get upset about things they don't understand and then getting yelled at for it.
Its the simple things in life. I also like going for walks and watching puppies fight over chew toys.
Also:
Cute. we love the same things ))))))))
"Can you not read the words Team League? Or did you miss that part?"
"offline finals of sc2l is at dh bucharest. I think Axiom payed those flights. And i dont think GSTL covers intercontinental travel costs. So which teamleague does in fact pay? IPTL? yeah.. they must be the standard.."
On August 15 2013 02:49 renaissanceMAN wrote: This JimmiC kid getting destroyed by tb.
Its fun to watch. I like his excuses of “OMG TB your such a passive aggressive(TB is mostly aggressive) drama queen. You should EXPECT me to jump on the hate train when you make an announcement I don’t like. This is the internet and hating on people is what we do. I man, seriously, why would you disrespect your fans(the fans are watching TB rip him apart and feel totally respected) by posting this crap. Your so fake famous.”
Its pretty funny, though I bet the guy doesn’t even know its funny.
These posts are the worst I've read so far and that says a lot. How old are you, 12? Don't get me wrong; I'm not agreeing with JimmiC but what exactly is the purpose of these 2 posts?
I am 33 and enjoy watching people who have no idea what they are talking about get upset about things they don't understand and then getting yelled at for it.
Its the simple things in life. I also like going for walks and watching puppies fight over chew toys.
Also:
Enjoying the show while eating popcorn was what I was doing. You 2 are actively ostracizing someone who has an argument with someone else by participating in the internet version of talking about him behind his back just loud enough so that he can hear it. That's not quite the same and frankly, it's pretty pathetic. I also didn't really see him being "destroyed" by TB btw. Anyway; Sucks that Axiom can't attend the conclusion of the ATC.
You were actaully horribly mistaken that people would jump on your lets make MVP the bad guys thing. For some unknown reason you brought them into this discussion. And you continue to be negative about it calling it "the begging bowl" I'm sure a man with your integrity would never ask his fans for cash, it's compely different that you offer a 4.99$ subsciption on your twitch channel. Or because you provide such a valuable sevice you are allowed to ask for money but not them. No hypocracy there. It's really lucky that you have so many fans that seem to only read one post of yours at a time. Or just enjoy that u stir the pot. Because you sure are full of bs.
Lovely attempt to twist my words there to claim I insulted MVP. That's exactly what MVP did, begged for money. They asked the community to fund their trip, despite the fact that they have more sponsor funding than Axiom does and don't salary all of their players. We assumed that a team of our standing would be torn to bits by the community for asking for money, but apparently it's ok for MVP to do so. I'm sorry if you feel that the term "begging" is insulting, maybe I should have used "fundraising" so as not to offend your fragile sensibilities.
I tend to find that people that can't even spell hypocrisy shouldn't be accusing people of it. You seriously think "please pay for our trip to ATC" and "There's an optional $4.99 subscription on the Twitch channel which gives various benefits in return" is somehow the same thing. Do you need a pole? I ask because your logical leaps are becoming logical vaults and your mental gymnastics are olympic standard.
I really hope you keep posting. You're the gift that keeps on giving, admittedly I do feel a little bad beating on someone who lost 8 pages ago but refuses to call GG.
How did he make his own money? How did he obtain so many followers. Much of it is because of e-sports, if not al
Alright you've just proven you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Stick a fork in him folks, this guys done.
On August 15 2013 07:36 TotalBiscuit wrote: Do you need a pole? I ask because your logical leaps are becoming logical vaults and your mental gymnastics are olympic standard.
On August 15 2013 07:36 TotalBiscuit wrote: Do you need a pole? I ask because your logical leaps are becoming logical vaults and your mental gymnastics are olympic standard.
Its funny how everyone knows everyone's financial status! We all know how MVP are doing, and we certainly know how all those people asking for our bucks or euros for their kickstarters really need them!!!
On August 15 2013 02:49 renaissanceMAN wrote: This JimmiC kid getting destroyed by tb.
Its fun to watch. I like his excuses of “OMG TB your such a passive aggressive(TB is mostly aggressive) drama queen. You should EXPECT me to jump on the hate train when you make an announcement I don’t like. This is the internet and hating on people is what we do. I man, seriously, why would you disrespect your fans(the fans are watching TB rip him apart and feel totally respected) by posting this crap. Your so fake famous.”
Its pretty funny, though I bet the guy doesn’t even know its funny.
These posts are the worst I've read so far and that says a lot. How old are you, 12? Don't get me wrong; I'm not agreeing with JimmiC but what exactly is the purpose of these 2 posts?
I am 33 and enjoy watching people who have no idea what they are talking about get upset about things they don't understand and then getting yelled at for it.
Its the simple things in life. I also like going for walks and watching puppies fight over chew toys.
Also:
Enjoying the show while eating popcorn was what I was doing. You 2 are actively ostracizing someone who has an argument with someone else by participating in the internet version of talking about him behind his back just loud enough so that he can hear it. That's not quite the same and frankly, it's pretty pathetic. I also didn't really see him being "destroyed" by TB btw. Anyway; Sucks that Axiom can't attend the conclusion of the ATC.
You were actaully horribly mistaken that people would jump on your lets make MVP the bad guys thing. For some unknown reason you brought them into this discussion. And you continue to be negative about it calling it "the begging bowl" I'm sure a man with your integrity would never ask his fans for cash, it's compely different that you offer a 4.99$ subsciption on your twitch channel. Or because you provide such a valuable sevice you are allowed to ask for money but not them. No hypocracy there. It's really lucky that you have so many fans that seem to only read one post of yours at a time. Or just enjoy that u stir the pot. Because you sure are full of bs.
Lovely attempt to twist my words there to claim I insulted MVP. That's exactly what MVP did, begged for money. They asked the community to fund their trip, despite the fact that they have more sponsor funding than Axiom does and don't salary all of their players. We assumed that a team of our standing would be torn to bits by the community for asking for money, but apparently it's ok for MVP to do so. I'm sorry if you feel that the term "begging" is insulting, maybe I should have used "fundraising" so as not to offend your fragile sensibilities.
I tend to find that people that can't even spell hypocrisy shouldn't be accusing people of it. You seriously think "please pay for our trip to ATC" and "There's an optional $4.99 subscription on the Twitch channel which gives various benefits in return" is somehow the same thing. Do you need a pole? I ask because your logical leaps are becoming logical vaults and your mental gymnastics are olympic standard.
I really hope you keep posting. You're the gift that keeps on giving, admittedly I do feel a little bad beating on someone who lost 8 pages ago but refuses to call GG.
How did he make his own money? How did he obtain so many followers. Much of it is because of e-sports, if not al
Alright you've just proven you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Stick a fork in him folks, this guys done.
Well, using the term "begging" in conjunction with the tone of what you are saying actually DOES make it sound like an insult, with a bit of resentment toward MVP. Also what exactly do you mean by a "team of our standing"? I don't think anyone thinks that the team is in anyway too good to do any "begging".
On August 15 2013 07:36 TotalBiscuit wrote: Do you need a pole? I ask because your logical leaps are becoming logical vaults and your mental gymnastics are olympic standard.
You were actaully horribly mistaken that people would jump on your lets make MVP the bad guys thing. For some unknown reason you brought them into this discussion. And you continue to be negative about it calling it "the begging bowl" I'm sure a man with your integrity would never ask his fans for cash, it's compely different that you offer a 4.99$ subsciption on your twitch channel. Or because you provide such a valuable sevice you are allowed to ask for money but not them. No hypocracy there. It's really lucky that you have so many fans that seem to only read one post of yours at a time. Or just enjoy that u stir the pot. Because you sure are full of bs.
Lovely attempt to twist my words there to claim I insulted MVP. That's exactly what MVP did, begged for money. They asked the community to fund their trip, despite the fact that they have more sponsor funding than Axiom does and don't salary all of their players. We assumed that a team of our standing would be torn to bits by the community for asking for money, but apparently it's ok for MVP to do so. I'm sorry if you feel that the term "begging" is insulting, maybe I should have used "fundraising" so as not to offend your fragile sensibilities.
I tend to find that people that can't even spell hypocrisy shouldn't be accusing people of it. You seriously think "please pay for our trip to ATC" and "There's an optional $4.99 subscription on the Twitch channel which gives various benefits in return" is somehow the same thing. Do you need a pole? I ask because your logical leaps are becoming logical vaults and your mental gymnastics are olympic standard.
I really hope you keep posting. You're the gift that keeps on giving, admittedly I do feel a little bad beating on someone who lost 8 pages ago but refuses to call GG.
How did he make his own money? How did he obtain so many followers. Much of it is because of e-sports, if not al
Alright you've just proven you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Stick a fork in him folks, this guys done.
Do you have details of MVP's sponsor funding? Is that for the whole organisation, or just the SC2 part? Are there stipulations regarding what the sponsor money can be spent on, e.g. domestic activities only, or can they spend Hot6ix LoL money for Korean promotion on SC2 flights to a Europe based team league?
They also have more players than Axiom, by a large margin. 12 SC2 players (3x as many as Axiom) plus 13 LoL players and coaches and managers. So you would hope they have more sponsor money to support all that, even if not everyone is salaried.
according to some dudes who are close with Team MVP they don't have an international travel sponsor for sc2, and most of their sponsors are only for their league team(I know someone will bring up how the manager/coach failed hard on this aspect and I agree).
Vaas: Did I ever tell you what the definition of insanity is? Insanity is doing the exact... same fucking thing... over and over again expecting... shit to change... That. Is. Crazy.
p.s. fuck you tb for acting like a motherfucking piece of shit towards mvp.
On August 15 2013 08:01 BlueFlames wrote: Vaas: Did I ever tell you what the definition of insanity is? Insanity is doing the exact... same fucking thing... over and over again expecting... shit to change... That. Is. Crazy.
p.s. fuck you tb for acting like a motherfucking piece of shit towards mvp.
User was warned for this post
Biggest edit Ive ever seen! Don't get upset bro, Like TB says about twitter, dont get the internet/people/esports teams/etc too seriously
On August 15 2013 08:01 BlueFlames wrote: Vaas: Did I ever tell you what the definition of insanity is? Insanity is doing the exact... same fucking thing... over and over again expecting... shit to change... That. Is. Crazy.
p.s. fuck you tb for acting like a motherfucking piece of shit towards mvp.
User was warned for this post
Biggest edit Ive ever seen! Don't get upset bro, Like TB says about twitter, dont get the internet/people/esports teams/etc too seriously
I was writing and hit post, without beeing halfway finished. As i pressed back a few times, i had read more posts from tb and had even less motivation to post. In the end all a focused on was tb beeing a dick. but thats nothing new to the community i guess :-p
You are fighting the wrong battle. Totalbiscuit acts like a prick because most of his clientele are investing on popcorn. And he enjoys a certain amount of leeway.
If you want to be useful, report every TB post where he acts like a douche and wait for the misclick !
On August 15 2013 08:16 Otolia wrote: You are fighting the wrong battle. Totalbiscuit acts like a prick because most of his clientele are investing on popcorn. And he enjoys a certain amount of leeway.
If you want to be useful, report every TB post where he acts like a douche and wait for the misclick !
Man I'm investing on popcorn for both sides to reply. Sometimes people make drama too funny.
You were actaully horribly mistaken that people would jump on your lets make MVP the bad guys thing. For some unknown reason you brought them into this discussion. And you continue to be negative about it calling it "the begging bowl" I'm sure a man with your integrity would never ask his fans for cash, it's compely different that you offer a 4.99$ subsciption on your twitch channel. Or because you provide such a valuable sevice you are allowed to ask for money but not them. No hypocracy there. It's really lucky that you have so many fans that seem to only read one post of yours at a time. Or just enjoy that u stir the pot. Because you sure are full of bs.
Lovely attempt to twist my words there to claim I insulted MVP. That's exactly what MVP did, begged for money. They asked the community to fund their trip, despite the fact that they have more sponsor funding than Axiom does and don't salary all of their players. We assumed that a team of our standing would be torn to bits by the community for asking for money, but apparently it's ok for MVP to do so. I'm sorry if you feel that the term "begging" is insulting, maybe I should have used "fundraising" so as not to offend your fragile sensibilities.
I tend to find that people that can't even spell hypocrisy shouldn't be accusing people of it. You seriously think "please pay for our trip to ATC" and "There's an optional $4.99 subscription on the Twitch channel which gives various benefits in return" is somehow the same thing. Do you need a pole? I ask because your logical leaps are becoming logical vaults and your mental gymnastics are olympic standard.
I really hope you keep posting. You're the gift that keeps on giving, admittedly I do feel a little bad beating on someone who lost 8 pages ago but refuses to call GG.
How did he make his own money? How did he obtain so many followers. Much of it is because of e-sports, if not al
Alright you've just proven you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Stick a fork in him folks, this guys done.
If the reason you think you are beating me is because people are agreeing with you, you are silly. They are agreeing because they are part of your fan base, or at the very least recognize you as some member of the elite in esports.
Frankly if we'd known it was acceptable to toss out the begging bowl like MVP, who evidently needed to do it despite having way more sponsors than we do, then maybe we'd have done that,
I should have maybe called it a "passive aggressive not so subtle jab at a another organization" instead of insult but some times I don't take the time to write out what I've written out 10x already.
Am I the only one to take it in this way and think it was a dick move? Please read the spoilers below. + Show Spoiler +
On August 15 2013 02:22 TotalBiscuit wrote: Show nested quote +
You can be disappointed all you please but there's a difference between that and flat out attacking the organisation for perceived incompetence, dishonesty or whatever.
Frankly if we'd known it was acceptable to toss out the begging bowl like MVP, who evidently needed to do it despite having way more sponsors than we do, then maybe we'd have done that, but that wouldn't have solved the fact that 1/4 of our lineup is physically unfit to compete.
Ok, you may want to have your wife screen these before posting for your own safty.
On August 15 2013 02:22 TotalBiscuit wrote: Show nested quote +
You can be disappointed all you please but there's a difference between that and flat out attacking the organisation for perceived incompetence, dishonesty or whatever.
Frankly if we'd known it was acceptable to toss out the begging bowl like MVP, who evidently needed to do it despite having way more sponsors than we do, then maybe we'd have done that, but that wouldn't have solved the fact that 1/4 of our lineup is physically unfit to compete.
Come on son thats a cheap shot and you know it. They also have a shit ton more players than you do as well.
On August 15 2013 02:22 TotalBiscuit wrote: Show nested quote +
You can be disappointed all you please but there's a difference between that and flat out attacking the organisation for perceived incompetence, dishonesty or whatever.
Frankly if we'd known it was acceptable to toss out the begging bowl like MVP, who evidently needed to do it despite having way more sponsors than we do, then maybe we'd have done that, but that wouldn't have solved the fact that 1/4 of our lineup is physically unfit to compete.
Wow you just lost all my respect, firing shots at MVP like that. However I will still support the players.
On August 15 2013 03:02 geokilla wrote: Show nested quote +
Wow you just lost all my respect, firing shots at MVP like that. However I will still support the players.
I won't really commit to saying that the team will be 100% Korean but I would like the team to serve both TB and my hopes of bettering the state of eSports in Korea. At present many Korean SC2 players do not actually receive a salary or receive a small salary that does not really support a stable career.
- Axiom Team manager/"owner"
Frankly if we'd known it was acceptable to toss out the begging bowl like MVP, who evidently needed to do it despite having way more sponsors than we do, then maybe we'd have done that, but that wouldn't have solved the fact that 1/4 of our lineup is physically unfit to compete.
- Axiom PR guy
this was due to their international travel sponsor dropping support recently
- Team MVP
But then I'm also sure that TB knows exactly how much MVP get from their sponsors, and what the money is/can be used for as well. I'm sure he wouldn't be making any assumptions about MVP, doing the sort of thing he hates others doing. Mo sponsors, mo money! Let's ignore the fact that MVP is also more than just SC2, and the sponsors seem to sponsor all the MVP teams, such as the LoL teams. I'm sure all the MVP players get mega salaries and the state of Korean SC2 is much better than it was about a year ago when Axiom was created, and teams are closing down and holding fundraisers for kicks.
irst i was shocked, the headlines should include that millenium is already replacing axiom.
so thats a big relief. I dont particulary like Axiom and TB anyhow and Millenium is a more interesting team by far. Mvp already represents the korean teams. So overall im pretty happy with the outcome.
I just dont like the way it happened. Or even that it happened at all. because it clearly didnt have to happen. The reasons i hear seem very weak to me.
It is quite nice of ATC to provide for accomodation and 1500$ for travels. Because the standard in esports is 0 money from event organizers for travels. How someone gets to the understanding that they pay everything.. its totally unexplainable to me. It was very clearly communicated.
So you tell me you enter in a competition without reading the rules properly and without sufficient players to compete if one happens to be unavailable. At least use the "joker" rule to get an additional player. That just doesnt sound like the management is very qualified.
Also complaining about travel costs... thats the business. Especially if you dont focus on a region but try to be everywhere at once.
On August 15 2013 05:28 XinSC wrote: Show nested quote +
Pls read TB's summaries. You are just proving his point of people posting stuff and accusations they don't really know anything about...
They could not have known about Miya's retirement or Cranks injury, and they are certainly not accountable for travelocity screwing up so badly...
nobody cares who you could blame for the situation. Blaming the circumstances.. good management finds solutions rather than complaining about everything all the time. Look at MVP. They dont pull out. If you are in a difficult situation, you do more to overcome it not less to evade it.
So clearly I'm the only person to take it this way. And thats not including all the people that felt this way and didn't post.
"There's an optional $4.99 subscription on the Twitch channel which gives various benefits in return"
Yeah I'm a idiot. Having a optional subscript is with "various benefits" Is not at all like asking for a donation for the benefit of getting to watch them play. It's totally not semantics or slightly different business model. Its not giving the choice to the fans whether they want to contribute extra or not. COMPLETELY Different had MVP offered a subscription that gave them various benefits including making it to the tournament for only 4.99$ that would have been ok.
Not that I think its bad to do. If people can monetize there participation in events. Or whatever it is that you provide go for it. Its just extremely hypocritical to talk down the others doing the same thing. But as a self righteous narcissist I see how this could miss you completely.
Also I agree esports is completely unlike any business other business in the world. This whole respecting your customer base thing idea I spout will never work. Here, I'll end with a cliche` about how much I'm beating him, how dumb he is and then maybe people will actually read the logic and not the name of the poster.
He's out colder then an ice cube
This guy just knocked it out of the park
This guy is dumb as a stump.
Silly you, the MVP begging/fundraising wasn't optional.
On August 15 2013 08:16 Otolia wrote: You are fighting the wrong battle. Totalbiscuit acts like a prick because most of his clientele are investing on popcorn. And he enjoys a certain amount of leeway.
If you want to be useful, report every TB post where he acts like a douche and wait for the misclick !
but thats the point. why does it come to this? is it because team axiom is hate by the whole community? or is it because of something else? teams, organizers, hosts and casters get away with a lot of stuff, because they know how to engage in discussion or know how to end it. some people dont know how to do it and get shit on, everytime their name is mentioned. I dont think thats a coinscident.
^_^ this has gone downhill pretty fast. a small statement with the straight facts would ve been enough from tb, the slight (cuz the wording doesnt give much room for interpretation) against mvp was dumb. btw didnt some player (i think it was mkp) got into an event cuz he was shipped in with money from outsiders cuz else he couldnt attend? so its not like these things never happend before? (if i am not completely wrong on this one) so i dont see that as a bad move (for any team) i mean, if there are fans of teams who are willing to pay to see them at an event, why not do it, cuz flying people in and out is freaking expensive.
lastly...pretty sad how some people here get off when others get talked down, i thought tl.net is better than that (at least it was in the past long time ago TT)
On August 15 2013 08:24 {ToT}ColmA wrote: ^_^ this has gone downhill pretty fast. a small statement with the straight facts would ve been enough from tb, the slight (cuz the wording doesnt give much room for interpretation) against mvp was dumb. btw didnt some player (i think it was mkp) got into an event cuz he was shipped in with money from outsiders cuz else he couldnt attend? so its not like these things never happend before? (if i am not completely wrong on this one) so i dont see that as a bad move (for any team) i mean, if there are fans of teams who are willing to pay to see them at an event, why not do it, cuz flying people in and out is freaking expensive.
lastly...pretty sad how some people here get off when others get talked down, i thought tl.net is better than that (at least it was in the past long time ago TT)
On August 15 2013 08:24 {ToT}ColmA wrote: ^_^ this has gone downhill pretty fast. a small statement with the straight facts would ve been enough from tb, the slight (cuz the wording doesnt give much room for interpretation) against mvp was dumb. btw didnt some player (i think it was mkp) got into an event cuz he was shipped in with money from outsiders cuz else he couldnt attend? so its not like these things never happend before? (if i am not completely wrong on this one) so i dont see that as a bad move (for any team) i mean, if there are fans of teams who are willing to pay to see them at an event, why not do it, cuz flying people in and out is freaking expensive.
lastly...pretty sad how some people here get off when others get talked down, i thought tl.net is better than that (at least it was in the past long time ago TT)
Crank? Yeah this community clearly does not know what its doing or talking about.
Doubted feelings, I don't like TB I'm gonna be honest, but he does and did a lot for esport but it feels like a dick move to just pull out of it 3 days before stuff going down. I feel like you can't do to this to fans who where planning trips for axiom players they love and just fans in general. Also I feel sad for Take he's working really hard , and this must have come as a hit to him, and possibly the sponsors. I am happy though to see M replacing them. And if they really don't want to its their choice in the end and it isn't going to change. Btw sorry if its a bit of a stupid post I should go to sleep . Also I must agree it sounds a bit insulting towards MVP. The way you wrote it made it sound like look at those losers who are trying to fundraise money. I honestly don't get what's wrong with it. Having seen docu's and what not they seem like a very honest and nice team filed with passion and talent.
On August 15 2013 08:01 BlueFlames wrote: Vaas: Did I ever tell you what the definition of insanity is? Insanity is doing the exact... same fucking thing... over and over again expecting... shit to change... That. Is. Crazy.
p.s. fuck you tb for acting like a motherfucking piece of shit towards mvp.
User was warned for this post
Biggest edit Ive ever seen! Don't get upset bro, Like TB says about twitter, dont get the internet/people/esports teams/etc too seriously
I was writing and hit post, without beeing halfway finished. As i pressed back a few times, i had read more posts from tb and had even less motivation to post. In the end all a focused on was tb beeing a dick. but thats nothing new to the community i guess :-p
Every popular person, whether he deserves it or not, has a personal army. Someone I know calls them fanbois. They must die. TB like everyone of us has pros and cons. At a first glance you cant see the cons. He looks like an independent game reviewer who isn't scared to say things as he sees them. Some of the cons is that he cant see his mistakes, or cant admit them publicly or not right away. He doesn't need you, maybe not because hes got many others, but because he doesn't feel he needs anybody. You don't need him either. There are many good game reviewers/youtubers, some better than TB. Also many good sc2 teams to follow.
On August 15 2013 08:01 BlueFlames wrote: Vaas: Did I ever tell you what the definition of insanity is? Insanity is doing the exact... same fucking thing... over and over again expecting... shit to change... That. Is. Crazy.
p.s. fuck you tb for acting like a motherfucking piece of shit towards mvp.
User was warned for this post
Biggest edit Ive ever seen! Don't get upset bro, Like TB says about twitter, dont get the internet/people/esports teams/etc too seriously
I was writing and hit post, without beeing halfway finished. As i pressed back a few times, i had read more posts from tb and had even less motivation to post. In the end all a focused on was tb beeing a dick. but thats nothing new to the community i guess :-p
Every popular person, whether he deserves it or not, has a personal army. Someone I know calls them fanbois. They must die. TB like everyone of us has pros and cons. At a first glance you cant see the cons. He looks like an independent game reviewer who isn't scared to say things as he sees them. Some of the cons is that he cant see his mistakes, or cant admit them publicly or not right away. He doesn't need you, maybe not because hes got many others, but because he doesn't feel he needs anybody. You don't need him either. There are many good game reviewers/youtubers, some better than TB. Also many good sc2 teams to follow.
Silly you. I know that, but i connect to him the most because we have a lot of interests in common. Still, sometimes its hard to stay a fan.
Definitely sucky but at least there wasn't anything irresponsible or stupid from either side and it was just bad luck and admitting they didn't have the cash
You were actaully horribly mistaken that people would jump on your lets make MVP the bad guys thing. For some unknown reason you brought them into this discussion. And you continue to be negative about it calling it "the begging bowl" I'm sure a man with your integrity would never ask his fans for cash, it's compely different that you offer a 4.99$ subsciption on your twitch channel. Or because you provide such a valuable sevice you are allowed to ask for money but not them. No hypocracy there. It's really lucky that you have so many fans that seem to only read one post of yours at a time. Or just enjoy that u stir the pot. Because you sure are full of bs.
Lovely attempt to twist my words there to claim I insulted MVP. That's exactly what MVP did, begged for money. They asked the community to fund their trip, despite the fact that they have more sponsor funding than Axiom does and don't salary all of their players. We assumed that a team of our standing would be torn to bits by the community for asking for money, but apparently it's ok for MVP to do so. I'm sorry if you feel that the term "begging" is insulting, maybe I should have used "fundraising" so as not to offend your fragile sensibilities.
I tend to find that people that can't even spell hypocrisy shouldn't be accusing people of it. You seriously think "please pay for our trip to ATC" and "There's an optional $4.99 subscription on the Twitch channel which gives various benefits in return" is somehow the same thing. Do you need a pole? I ask because your logical leaps are becoming logical vaults and your mental gymnastics are olympic standard.
I really hope you keep posting. You're the gift that keeps on giving, admittedly I do feel a little bad beating on someone who lost 8 pages ago but refuses to call GG.
How did he make his own money? How did he obtain so many followers. Much of it is because of e-sports, if not al
Alright you've just proven you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Stick a fork in him folks, this guys done.
If the reason you think you are beating me is because people are agreeing with you, you are silly. They are agreeing because they are part of your fan base, or at the very least recognize you as some member of the elite in esports.
I did not twist your words this is what you said
Frankly if we'd known it was acceptable to toss out the begging bowl like MVP, who evidently needed to do it despite having way more sponsors than we do, then maybe we'd have done that,
I should have maybe called it a "passive aggressive not so subtle jab at a another organization" instead of insult but some times I don't take the time to write out what I've written out 10x already.
Am I the only one to take it in this way and think it was a dick move? Please read the spoilers below. + Show Spoiler +
On August 15 2013 02:22 TotalBiscuit wrote: Show nested quote +
You can be disappointed all you please but there's a difference between that and flat out attacking the organisation for perceived incompetence, dishonesty or whatever.
Frankly if we'd known it was acceptable to toss out the begging bowl like MVP, who evidently needed to do it despite having way more sponsors than we do, then maybe we'd have done that, but that wouldn't have solved the fact that 1/4 of our lineup is physically unfit to compete.
Ok, you may want to have your wife screen these before posting for your own safty.
On August 15 2013 02:22 TotalBiscuit wrote: Show nested quote +
You can be disappointed all you please but there's a difference between that and flat out attacking the organisation for perceived incompetence, dishonesty or whatever.
Frankly if we'd known it was acceptable to toss out the begging bowl like MVP, who evidently needed to do it despite having way more sponsors than we do, then maybe we'd have done that, but that wouldn't have solved the fact that 1/4 of our lineup is physically unfit to compete.
Come on son thats a cheap shot and you know it. They also have a shit ton more players than you do as well.
On August 15 2013 02:22 TotalBiscuit wrote: Show nested quote +
You can be disappointed all you please but there's a difference between that and flat out attacking the organisation for perceived incompetence, dishonesty or whatever.
Frankly if we'd known it was acceptable to toss out the begging bowl like MVP, who evidently needed to do it despite having way more sponsors than we do, then maybe we'd have done that, but that wouldn't have solved the fact that 1/4 of our lineup is physically unfit to compete.
Wow you just lost all my respect, firing shots at MVP like that. However I will still support the players.
On August 15 2013 03:02 geokilla wrote: Show nested quote +
Wow you just lost all my respect, firing shots at MVP like that. However I will still support the players.
I won't really commit to saying that the team will be 100% Korean but I would like the team to serve both TB and my hopes of bettering the state of eSports in Korea. At present many Korean SC2 players do not actually receive a salary or receive a small salary that does not really support a stable career.
- Axiom Team manager/"owner"
Frankly if we'd known it was acceptable to toss out the begging bowl like MVP, who evidently needed to do it despite having way more sponsors than we do, then maybe we'd have done that, but that wouldn't have solved the fact that 1/4 of our lineup is physically unfit to compete.
- Axiom PR guy
this was due to their international travel sponsor dropping support recently
- Team MVP
But then I'm also sure that TB knows exactly how much MVP get from their sponsors, and what the money is/can be used for as well. I'm sure he wouldn't be making any assumptions about MVP, doing the sort of thing he hates others doing. Mo sponsors, mo money! Let's ignore the fact that MVP is also more than just SC2, and the sponsors seem to sponsor all the MVP teams, such as the LoL teams. I'm sure all the MVP players get mega salaries and the state of Korean SC2 is much better than it was about a year ago when Axiom was created, and teams are closing down and holding fundraisers for kicks.
irst i was shocked, the headlines should include that millenium is already replacing axiom.
so thats a big relief. I dont particulary like Axiom and TB anyhow and Millenium is a more interesting team by far. Mvp already represents the korean teams. So overall im pretty happy with the outcome.
I just dont like the way it happened. Or even that it happened at all. because it clearly didnt have to happen. The reasons i hear seem very weak to me.
It is quite nice of ATC to provide for accomodation and 1500$ for travels. Because the standard in esports is 0 money from event organizers for travels. How someone gets to the understanding that they pay everything.. its totally unexplainable to me. It was very clearly communicated.
So you tell me you enter in a competition without reading the rules properly and without sufficient players to compete if one happens to be unavailable. At least use the "joker" rule to get an additional player. That just doesnt sound like the management is very qualified.
Also complaining about travel costs... thats the business. Especially if you dont focus on a region but try to be everywhere at once.
On August 15 2013 05:28 XinSC wrote: Show nested quote +
Pls read TB's summaries. You are just proving his point of people posting stuff and accusations they don't really know anything about...
They could not have known about Miya's retirement or Cranks injury, and they are certainly not accountable for travelocity screwing up so badly...
nobody cares who you could blame for the situation. Blaming the circumstances.. good management finds solutions rather than complaining about everything all the time. Look at MVP. They dont pull out. If you are in a difficult situation, you do more to overcome it not less to evade it.
So clearly I'm the only person to take it this way. And thats not including all the people that felt this way and didn't post.
"There's an optional $4.99 subscription on the Twitch channel which gives various benefits in return"
Yeah I'm a idiot. Having a optional subscript is with "various benefits" Is not at all like asking for a donation for the benefit of getting to watch them play. It's totally not semantics or slightly different business model. Its not giving the choice to the fans whether they want to contribute extra or not. COMPLETELY Different had MVP offered a subscription that gave them various benefits including making it to the tournament for only 4.99$ that would have been ok.
Not that I think its bad to do. If people can monetize there participation in events. Or whatever it is that you provide go for it. Its just extremely hypocritical to talk down the others doing the same thing. But as a self righteous narcissist I see how this could miss you completely.
Also I agree esports is completely unlike any business other business in the world. This whole respecting your customer base thing idea I spout will never work. Here, I'll end with a cliche` about how much I'm beating him, how dumb he is and then maybe people will actually read the logic and not the name of the poster.
He's out colder then an ice cube
This guy just knocked it out of the park
This guy is dumb as a stump.
Silly you, the MVP begging/fundraising wasn't optional.
That is silly of me, I had no idea I was forced to pay it. I even checked my credit card and Bank account no withdrawals. Strange mandatory thing
*edit if you were being sarcastic and funny and I missed it my bad =( most people have been attacking me so I just assumed.
You missed it, its fine, even if you were right or wrong, having someone attacking you and people laughing about it can be confusing. You shouldn't try to have serious conversations in internet forums Being sarcastic and ironic works better. Or when a question you don't like is addressed to you, change subject/insult someone.
On August 15 2013 08:53 DavoS wrote: Definitely sucky but at least there wasn't anything irresponsible or stupid from either side and it was just bad luck and admitting they didn't have the cash
I would disagree with that after reading Genna's statement. I was stupid of ATC not to fully communicate they wouldn't be covering all the costs and was stupid of Axiom to assume ATC was.
It sucks in the end, as they had a great shot at winning the whole thing
On August 15 2013 08:53 DavoS wrote: Definitely sucky but at least there wasn't anything irresponsible or stupid from either side and it was just bad luck and admitting they didn't have the cash
I would disagree with that after reading Genna's statement. I was stupid of ATC not to fully communicate they wouldn't be covering all the costs and was stupid of Axiom to assume ATC was.
It sucks in the end, as they had a great shot at winning the whole thing
Actually both sides probably did mistakes. Maybe TAKE didn't formally inform and Axiom never asked, assumed its the usual (?) thing. Then again someone posts the exact opposite & the bad luck combo. Anyways off to bed, I hope TL will send their best... LIQUID HERO <3 <3 <3 fanboi
On August 15 2013 08:53 DavoS wrote: Definitely sucky but at least there wasn't anything irresponsible or stupid from either side and it was just bad luck and admitting they didn't have the cash
I would disagree with that after reading Genna's statement. I was stupid of ATC not to fully communicate they wouldn't be covering all the costs and was stupid of Axiom to assume ATC was.
It sucks in the end, as they had a great shot at winning the whole thing
I think they didn't think they had much of a shot since if they won they would get 10k which would cover costs. I think the bigger issues were there past issues with travelocity and there players being ill. I really think ATC is not at fault in this what so ever.
Besides a few tournaments (the PPV MLG) and some qualifier prizes I've never really heard of tournaments paying for flights... It's unfortunate Genna wasn't "in the loop" or whatever happened but I also feel there's more responsibility on the team that agrees to join the league. Either way, the situation sucks and fortunately there's a reasonable resolution (M as a replacement).
On August 15 2013 08:53 DavoS wrote: Definitely sucky but at least there wasn't anything irresponsible or stupid from either side and it was just bad luck and admitting they didn't have the cash
I would disagree with that after reading Genna's statement. I was stupid of ATC not to fully communicate they wouldn't be covering all the costs and was stupid of Axiom to assume ATC was.
It sucks in the end, as they had a great shot at winning the whole thing
I think they didn't think they had much of a shot since if they won they would get 10k which would cover costs. I think the bigger issues were there past issues with travelocity and there players being ill. I really think ATC is not at fault in this what so ever.
Besides a few tournaments (the PPV MLG) and some qualifier prizes I've never really heard of tournaments paying for flights... It's unfortunate Genna wasn't "in the loop" or whatever happened but I also feel there's more responsibility on the team that agrees to join the league. Either way, the situation sucks and fortunately there's a reasonable resolution (M as a replacement).
If you go to the thread linked above, it looks like both sides did not do enough digging into the issue and the amount that would be provided was not clear. It seems like an oversight by Take TV and the team as well. Its good they worked it out.
On August 15 2013 08:53 DavoS wrote: Definitely sucky but at least there wasn't anything irresponsible or stupid from either side and it was just bad luck and admitting they didn't have the cash
I would disagree with that after reading Genna's statement. I was stupid of ATC not to fully communicate they wouldn't be covering all the costs and was stupid of Axiom to assume ATC was.
It sucks in the end, as they had a great shot at winning the whole thing
I think they didn't think they had much of a shot since if they won they would get 10k which would cover costs. I think the bigger issues were there past issues with travelocity and there players being ill. I really think ATC is not at fault in this what so ever.
From the thread above it looks like ATC was not 100% clear as to how much travel would be covered, though Axiom did not directly ask "yo how much money would we receive"
On August 15 2013 10:02 alphaproxy wrote: Btw as we type about SC2 hundreds of people die in Egypt...
And my brother comes home from Afghanistan tomorrow. The world is a big place and terrible things happen to good people. I think we can forgive someone dropping out of a team league.
That and their budget is so tight that the owner has been dipping into her 401K to fund the team. [...]
Way to fail at reading comprehension.
Sucks for Axiom not to attend ATC, but a the end I think it's clear their players are not in top form at the moment anyway. And they're still going to Dreamhack.
can i clarify that as a British person "tossing out the begging bowl" should not be seen as "OMG they are literally hitler for asking for this" but rather as "it's a shame they've got to ask for this" maybe just a culture thing :/ but i didn't see the remark as particularly offensive
and to the JimmiC guy regarding the difference between TB's twitch subscription fee and MVP crowd funding, TB's twitch fee is not directly linked to Axiom and is more for people supporting TB's other content and they receive tangible benefits from doing so that are clearly listed up front, he then chooses to fund his team with that money as is his right, MVP on the other hand asked for money to help with the travel expenses, and they got money to go to those expenses, neither source of funding is wrong or even morally or ethically questionable.
hell if MVP put a subscription fee on their players streams then i think that would be a great way to raise extra money for the players, so long as they got tangible benefits for doing so.
Well to be fair to genna, she said she was never provided any official emails stating the $1500 travel and didn't have time to read tl/reddit to find this info. Nothing you provided was an official email.
Well to be fair to genna, she said she was never provided any official emails stating the $1500 travel and didn't have time to read tl/reddit to find this info. Nothing you provided was an official email.
I know ATC corresponds a lot with coach choi of MVP, so I don't have all those documents, however I do have this if you want an email.
Here is Genna's account of this, including emails and chatlogs:
On August 15 2013 10:25 SCkad wrote: can i clarify that as a British person "tossing out the begging bowl" should not be seen as "OMG they are literally hitler for asking for this" but rather as "it's a shame they've got to ask for this" maybe just a culture thing :/ but i didn't see the remark as particularly offensive
Yeah I know what you mean here...the vitriol being thrown around over a simple turn of phrase seems rather over the top...
On August 15 2013 10:25 SCkad wrote: can i clarify that as a British person "tossing out the begging bowl" should not be seen as "OMG they are literally hitler for asking for this" but rather as "it's a shame they've got to ask for this" maybe just a culture thing :/ but i didn't see the remark as particularly offensive
Yeah I know what you mean here...the vitriol being thrown around over a simple turn of phrase seems rather over the top...
Cultural differences perhaps.
So the subsequent comments about MVP having more sponsors/money, or that he thought it would be unacceptable should be ignored?
Can you really say it should be seen as "it's a shame they've got to ask for this" when he then says "they have loads of sponsors/money and I thought begging would be unacceptable". He clearly doesn't think they have need to ask for it, based on his detailed knowledge of the team MVP financial situation which he has yet to substantiate, and thinks that doing it should harm reputations.
On August 15 2013 10:25 SCkad wrote: can i clarify that as a British person "tossing out the begging bowl" should not be seen as "OMG they are literally hitler for asking for this" but rather as "it's a shame they've got to ask for this" maybe just a culture thing :/ but i didn't see the remark as particularly offensive
Yeah I know what you mean here...the vitriol being thrown around over a simple turn of phrase seems rather over the top...
Cultural differences perhaps.
So the subsequent comments about MVP having more sponsors/money, or that he thought it would be unacceptable should be ignored?
Can you really say it should be seen as "it's a shame they've got to ask for this" when he then says "they have loads of sponsors/money and I thought begging would be unacceptable". He clearly doesn't think they have need to ask for it, based on his detailed knowledge of the team MVP financial situation which he has yet to substantiate, and thinks that doing it should harm reputations.
No they shouldn't be ignored but, as with the original comment, you and many others are misinterpreting the implications. The point he was making wasn't "MVP is rich" it was that MVP as an organisation has more money than Axiom.
Even without actually seeing their accounts its pretty damn obvious that this has to be the case. Axiom has been supporting five players (until Miya retired recently), largely out of TB's own income it would seem although the source is inconsequential. MVP on the other hand is supporting three times that many players for Starcraft 2 alone. They also involve themselves in League of Legends. To be able to do all of that then their income must be higher than Axiom's otherwise they'd have closed down by now, you can't run a team on a net loss for long.
And I'm pretty sure you're completely missing TB's point. Unless I'm overlooking something he's not saying that its "wrong" for them to ask for it. He's surprised that they have to and is trying to highlight that if even MVP has to ask for money for this then what chance does Axiom have of covering it themselves? And that he felt that asking for money wouldn't go down well in this notoriously fickle community. THAT is why he said "I thought begging would be unacceptable"...because of the reactions of people in the SC2 community.
And I have to say I agree with that assessment. Surely you remember the controversy over ROOT asking for money for a teamhouse? Lots of people throw a fit in this community for teams having the "audacity" to ask for money for something. It was a PR decision between the possible bad press resulting from asking for money and the possible bad press resulting from dropping out of the tournament. They made their decision not to ask, MVP made the opposite decision.
On August 15 2013 10:25 SCkad wrote: can i clarify that as a British person "tossing out the begging bowl" should not be seen as "OMG they are literally hitler for asking for this" but rather as "it's a shame they've got to ask for this" maybe just a culture thing :/ but i didn't see the remark as particularly offensive
Yeah I know what you mean here...the vitriol being thrown around over a simple turn of phrase seems rather over the top...
Cultural differences perhaps.
So the subsequent comments about MVP having more sponsors/money, or that he thought it would be unacceptable should be ignored?
Can you really say it should be seen as "it's a shame they've got to ask for this" when he then says "they have loads of sponsors/money and I thought begging would be unacceptable". He clearly doesn't think they have need to ask for it, based on his detailed knowledge of the team MVP financial situation which he has yet to substantiate, and thinks that doing it should harm reputations.
No they shouldn't be ignored but, as with the original comment, you and many others are misinterpreting the implications. The point he was making wasn't "MVP is rich" it was that MVP as an organisation has more money than Axiom.
Even without actually seeing their accounts its pretty damn obvious that this has to be the case. Axiom has been supporting five players (until Miya retired recently), largely out of TB's own income it would seem although the source is inconsequential. MVP on the other hand is supporting three times that many players for Starcraft 2 alone. They also involve themselves in League of Legends. To be able to do all of that then their income must be higher than Axiom's otherwise they'd have closed down by now, you can't run a team on a net loss for long.
And I'm pretty sure you're completely missing TB's point. Unless I'm overlooking something he's not saying that its "wrong" for them to ask for it. He's surprised that they have to and is trying to highlight that if even MVP has to ask for money for this then what chance does Axiom have of covering it themselves? And that he felt that asking for money wouldn't go down well in this notoriously fickle community. THAT is why he said "I thought begging would be unacceptable"...because of the reactions of people in the SC2 community.
And I have to say I agree with that assessment. Surely you remember the controversy over ROOT asking for money for a teamhouse? Lots of people throw a fit in this community for teams having the "audacity" to ask for money for something. It was a PR decision between the possible bad press resulting from asking for money and the possible bad press resulting from dropping out of the tournament. They made their decision not to ask, MVP made the opposite decision.
TB definitely suggested that what he felt what MVP did was not appropriate. He also seems to ignore that MVP provided something for their fans instead of just asking for support.
EPT
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