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On August 16 2013 03:53 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 23:24 Crownlol wrote:On August 15 2013 22:57 e4e5nf3 wrote:On August 15 2013 22:11 Crownlol wrote:On August 15 2013 21:24 gobbledydook wrote:On August 15 2013 21:04 Naturedota wrote:
It makes absolutely no sense to allow koreans, or anyone who is no living in the region, to take part in the competition in american region. Same applies to all regions, so koreans should be allowed to compete only in korea, and europeas only in europe etc. This way, whole region thing actually makes sense and promotes local scene. and then no one watches WCS America because there's not actually anyone good there. Scarlett, Goswser, State, Minigun? I'm sorry but those are hardly big draws (at least for me). Talented, maybe, but they won't draw viewers. Or were you being sarcastic? Goswser - I guess RO4 at Dreamhack (almost beating HyuN), as well as wins against Stephano, Vortix, LucifroN and YugiOh aren't that impressive. Scarlett - Probably the best foreigner in the world. These aren't big draws? Nobody watched last year :/ And it was like whack-a-mole anyways; not a real competition
yep, WCS America with all Americans just doesn't work because we are all accustomed to watching good plays from Koreans and it hurts when you see less proficient players make questionable plays and bad micro.
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WCS EU has live streams in English, French, Polish, Russian, Spanish and German. What players are they focusing on? People of their nationality / from their region of course. Why? Because the average Polish viewer wants to see MaNa, Nerchio, Tefel and all the other Polish players win or at least do well. I want to see Swedish players do well. If you end up with 8 Koreans in Ro8 in WCS EU, you might as well close the whole thing for most of the European viewers. I also want to see Snute and DeMusliM in WCS EU, because I can't follow WSC AM live, so pretty please, come home lads, visit your family just in time for WCS EU! 
The occasionally connoisseur might love a scenario with top 8 Koreans only fighting it out in WSC EU, but let's be fair, if that happens over and over again, it will not be the future of Starcraft. Not in EU.
I don't know what the cure for the AM scene is, but I hardly think more Koreans competing in WCS AM is the long term solution there either. Look at what happened in the WCS AM qualifiers season 1 & 2. How is that kind of result going to encourage any kind of growth of the Starcraft scene in America? Maybe WSC AM needs to bring in a couple of big names for exhibition matches if a region lock comes, no harm in that. Another idea could be to invite Koreans for coaching sessions, using the nifty replay-and-get-back.into-the-fray function with upcoming AM talents (I'd probably buy the DVD the Boss Toss school of all-ins episode 1-12 myself, I could do with some advice for sure ), rather than unleashing the second best Koreans to stomp on them in the WSC AM qualification. I think some clever people better sit down and think hard about what can be done to ensure that Starcraft grows as a popular E-Sport, drawing lots and lots of spectators in both EU and AM. It could well be that the best way forward is not the same for the two regions given the apparent differences between them.
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On August 15 2013 02:16 Ohforfsake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 01:55 sAsImre wrote:On August 15 2013 00:36 Sissors wrote:On August 14 2013 22:39 opisska wrote:
So, dear region-lockers, let me ask this way: Blizzard has already said that they would like to push the whole WCS eventually to be offline. Will that solve your problem? Well it becomes alot less attractive for Koreans to participate in AM/EU, but it also becomes less attractive for Europeans/Americans to participate, which is why I don't think it will be a good idea. Korea is a single country that is extremely centered around Seoul, pretty much everyone lives there. Europe and America are a bit more spread out, to put it very mildly. So I don't think doing everything there offline is currently a good idea. But what if Koreans just move into US/Europe permanently and continue playing even completely offline? What will you require then - citizenship? Permanent residency? Or do you just want Blizzard to hire a team of antropologists to judge if the guy isn't too Korean to play? Hahahahah what a funny joke you made!!1!! Just kidding, wasn't funny. Permanent residency is imo the best one. For example someone in Polts situation should be allowed to participate in AM. The whole idea of region lock is absurd in the globalised world. Yet despite what you would think with all the tennis examples brought into here, I dare to say the vast majority of the regular sports tournaments have region lock. Despite it being apparantly absurd. Maybe it will work in US, because it is notoriously difficult to move there, but there is very little you can do in Europe to prevent all the Koreans to just become Europeans at almost any level barring actual citizenship. But do you really want nationalistic bureaocracy to be the deciding factor in esports competiton? I consider it highly unlikely that would happen on a large scale. And a last question: if you want a region lock, that means you are also OK with a region lock in Korea, right? No more foreigners in Korea and a completely closed scene like in late BW? Would be fine for me, you still have WCS finals anyway, and of course tons of open tournaments. On August 15 2013 00:35 Plansix wrote:On August 15 2013 00:33 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 15 2013 00:28 Plansix wrote:On August 15 2013 00:25 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 15 2013 00:10 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 14 2013 23:56 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 23:40 Vindicare605 wrote:
[quote]
I'm not disagreeing with you that perhaps the regions could be named to something else more arbitrary like Auir, Char or Korhal (keeping with Starcraft theme.) and that it is a little confusing especially after last year's format.
However, I will say that you are absolutely dead wrong about your last sentence. This attitude of "if its dominated by Koreans then I'm not watching" is that of a vocal minority.
I personally will NEVER understand why the nationality of a player has any bearing whatsoever on whether or not a fan will support him. I don't get it. I don't get it in Sports, I don't get it in e-sports. I understand the attitude exists but this scene can and will survive without people that let that attitude dominate their thinking.
Will it shrink, perhaps, but it will survive.
It will shrink to Broodwar, the last years. I do care about who is the best korean. I watch the GSL to see that. I just do not understand why you want to watch WCS AM/EU to see who is the best korean. If you want to see good koreans in your own time zone there is/was already Dreamhack and MLGs that sported this. What differs us in who we choose to cheer for is that I like to feel somewhat connected to whom I cheer for. Naniwa for instance has grown up in the same country and same region of that country as me. I know what he must have gone through to get to where it is. This makes it much easier for me to sympatize with him and feel pride etc if he wins something than a korean which I have absolutely nothing in common with. I have no idea what his life must have been like and cannot imagine what challanges he has faced. This is normal in sports fans. This is why you typically root for your local team in sports and not for the team on the other side of the earth (unless you just wanna be different from your local friends). For me it's equally amazing to find that there apperently are people who have never felt this connection to their local comunity. Only reason i watch WCS EU is to see whether some of our beloved foreigners can take out korean. It happens (*cough*Grubby*cough*), but it is rare. I watch WCS AM for players, whom i know can produce really good games or who are so hyped up, that i want to see how they'll do (*cough*Jim*cough*). And with this I am to assume you did not watch WCS EU 2012 then since it held no koreans to defeat. Just poor games between europeans? If this isn't true and you watched it your point is mute. Those games from WCS 2012 EU were pretty good, I don't know what you are talking about. People seem to have selective memories when it comes to non-Korean games and their quality. Why do you answer a question specifically asked to someone else with quotes? No, just pointing out that they were not "Just poor games between europeans?", but some pretty quality matches. FYI you completely missed his point. i can't think of an individual sport on a decent scale that is region locked atm. they might be a few tho. It's absurd to compare starcraft to team sport when it's just an individual sport like tennis, golf or whatever (hint Gom Kor vs the world was exactly the replicate of the ryder cup) and teamleagues happen all the time in individual sport, the only difference is that ppl don't care about them if it's not a nation vs nation thing. How many winter sports do you want me to list? How many summer sports? Every sport that is present in the olympics is region locked and that is the greatest tournament you can win in most sports. How about that? How many can you name that isn't region locked. (Even tennis is region locked in the olympics). Even the seemingly open american sports are region locked. It's not like I as a Norwegian can just valtz in there and compete. Or like I can just form up a norwegian team and join. The only thing I can think of that isn't particularily region locked is MMA.
the olympics are a stand alone event each 4y, which is wcg for sc2. regular winter sport season is open to everyone lol. WCS ain't the olympics if you didn't already notice...
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This is getting ridiculous tbh. The vast majority of sports are region locked. And still for some reason those against region locks keep dragging normal sports into the discussion once they find one without region locks to shows how 'idiotic' it would be to have region locks. When told plenty of sports have region locks they start adding random demands on the sports to be considered. Team sports don't count. Olympics doesn't count. Next sports where you don't set in a chair behind a computer screen don't count...
Anyway sAsImre I would wish you good luck participating in the European Athletics Championship as non-European. (Wondering what the excuse will be why that one doesn't count). Or the European Championship Squash. Or the European Aquatics Championships.
Yes there are some sports where the important tournaments have no region lock. I can think of for example tennis (which surprisingly always gets dragged into it by some people), marathon running, and road cycling (although that is debtable if you can still call it an individual sport). But there are also tons of individual sports where region locked tournaments are the norm.
On August 16 2013 04:04 gobbledydook wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2013 03:53 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:On August 15 2013 23:24 Crownlol wrote:On August 15 2013 22:57 e4e5nf3 wrote:On August 15 2013 22:11 Crownlol wrote:On August 15 2013 21:24 gobbledydook wrote:On August 15 2013 21:04 Naturedota wrote:
It makes absolutely no sense to allow koreans, or anyone who is no living in the region, to take part in the competition in american region. Same applies to all regions, so koreans should be allowed to compete only in korea, and europeas only in europe etc. This way, whole region thing actually makes sense and promotes local scene. and then no one watches WCS America because there's not actually anyone good there. Scarlett, Goswser, State, Minigun? I'm sorry but those are hardly big draws (at least for me). Talented, maybe, but they won't draw viewers. Or were you being sarcastic? Goswser - I guess RO4 at Dreamhack (almost beating HyuN), as well as wins against Stephano, Vortix, LucifroN and YugiOh aren't that impressive. Scarlett - Probably the best foreigner in the world. These aren't big draws? Nobody watched last year :/ And it was like whack-a-mole anyways; not a real competition yep, WCS America with all Americans just doesn't work because we are all accustomed to watching good plays from Koreans and it hurts when you see less proficient players make questionable plays and bad micro.
Yep thats also why so many more Europeans watch WCS KR than WCS EU. No one actually wants to watch the worse play in WCS EU, it just hurts. Oh wait...
Sorry but for the majority of viewers in general (so not just SC2, but any (e-)sports it is a big pre to watch people you can identify with, for example because they are from the some area as you are.
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I don't want a region lock - I won't watch a single WCS NA game if there is a region lock as the players are so weak compared to the best. Right now it's very interesting to me with some great koreans such as Polt/Jaedong + the foreigner vs korean storyline!
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The system is fine. Foreigners are getting better. Scarlett, Naniwa, Grubby, and a few others can go toe toe with mid to upper level Code S Koreans like Mvp, MC, MMA, and Jaedong. That's great. Maybe they can't beat Rain or Innovation yet, but that can change.
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Lets wait until after the season finals to judge if WCS America is the Second Strongest Region.
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28100 Posts
JaeDong officially changing name to JaeKong, calling it.
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On August 16 2013 01:15 Ballack wrote:
Giving NA and EU 2 spots each is ludicrous. I'd be down with a NA-4, EU-4 and Korea-8 though.
I think it should be 3-5-8
America is clearly worse then europe and they seem to care alot less for their national heros annyway.
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On August 16 2013 15:14 Sissors wrote:This is getting ridiculous tbh. The vast majority of sports are region locked. And still for some reason those against region locks keep dragging normal sports into the discussion once they find one without region locks to shows how 'idiotic' it would be to have region locks. When told plenty of sports have region locks they start adding random demands on the sports to be considered. Team sports don't count. Olympics doesn't count. Next sports where you don't set in a chair behind a computer screen don't count... Anyway sAsImre I would wish you good luck participating in the European Athletics Championship as non-European. (Wondering what the excuse will be why that one doesn't count). Or the European Championship Squash. Or the European Aquatics Championships. Yes there are some sports where the important tournaments have no region lock. I can think of for example tennis (which surprisingly always gets dragged into it by some people), marathon running, and road cycling (although that is debtable if you can still call it an individual sport). But there are also tons of individual sports where region locked tournaments are the norm. Show nested quote +On August 16 2013 04:04 gobbledydook wrote:On August 16 2013 03:53 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:On August 15 2013 23:24 Crownlol wrote:On August 15 2013 22:57 e4e5nf3 wrote:On August 15 2013 22:11 Crownlol wrote:On August 15 2013 21:24 gobbledydook wrote:On August 15 2013 21:04 Naturedota wrote:
It makes absolutely no sense to allow koreans, or anyone who is no living in the region, to take part in the competition in american region. Same applies to all regions, so koreans should be allowed to compete only in korea, and europeas only in europe etc. This way, whole region thing actually makes sense and promotes local scene. and then no one watches WCS America because there's not actually anyone good there. Scarlett, Goswser, State, Minigun? I'm sorry but those are hardly big draws (at least for me). Talented, maybe, but they won't draw viewers. Or were you being sarcastic? Goswser - I guess RO4 at Dreamhack (almost beating HyuN), as well as wins against Stephano, Vortix, LucifroN and YugiOh aren't that impressive. Scarlett - Probably the best foreigner in the world. These aren't big draws? Nobody watched last year :/ And it was like whack-a-mole anyways; not a real competition yep, WCS America with all Americans just doesn't work because we are all accustomed to watching good plays from Koreans and it hurts when you see less proficient players make questionable plays and bad micro. Yep thats also why so many more Europeans watch WCS KR than WCS EU. No one actually wants to watch the worse play in WCS EU, it just hurts. Oh wait... Sorry but for the majority of viewers in general (so not just SC2, but any (e-)sports it is a big pre to watch people you can identify with, for example because they are from the some area as you are.
I guess people watch the superbowl because they can relate to these 6'6" monsters with a rough childhood and immense talent?
Region lock in most sports? I guess Basketball, Football, Baseball, Soccer, or Hockey doesn't count. lMFAO what a joke.
People like you are keeping eSports down as a joke competition for teenagers that got rejected by REAL sports.
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Scarlett is good for sure, but I think world class is quite a stretch. She's not even the best foreigner.
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On August 16 2013 15:14 Sissors wrote:This is getting ridiculous tbh. The vast majority of sports are region locked. And still for some reason those against region locks keep dragging normal sports into the discussion once they find one without region locks to shows how 'idiotic' it would be to have region locks. When told plenty of sports have region locks they start adding random demands on the sports to be considered. Team sports don't count. Olympics doesn't count. Next sports where you don't set in a chair behind a computer screen don't count... Anyway sAsImre I would wish you good luck participating in the European Athletics Championship as non-European. (Wondering what the excuse will be why that one doesn't count). Or the European Championship Squash. Or the European Aquatics Championships. Yes there are some sports where the important tournaments have no region lock. I can think of for example tennis (which surprisingly always gets dragged into it by some people), marathon running, and road cycling (although that is debtable if you can still call it an individual sport). But there are also tons of individual sports where region locked tournaments are the norm. Show nested quote +On August 16 2013 04:04 gobbledydook wrote:On August 16 2013 03:53 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:On August 15 2013 23:24 Crownlol wrote:On August 15 2013 22:57 e4e5nf3 wrote:On August 15 2013 22:11 Crownlol wrote:On August 15 2013 21:24 gobbledydook wrote:On August 15 2013 21:04 Naturedota wrote:
It makes absolutely no sense to allow koreans, or anyone who is no living in the region, to take part in the competition in american region. Same applies to all regions, so koreans should be allowed to compete only in korea, and europeas only in europe etc. This way, whole region thing actually makes sense and promotes local scene. and then no one watches WCS America because there's not actually anyone good there. Scarlett, Goswser, State, Minigun? I'm sorry but those are hardly big draws (at least for me). Talented, maybe, but they won't draw viewers. Or were you being sarcastic? Goswser - I guess RO4 at Dreamhack (almost beating HyuN), as well as wins against Stephano, Vortix, LucifroN and YugiOh aren't that impressive. Scarlett - Probably the best foreigner in the world. These aren't big draws? Nobody watched last year :/ And it was like whack-a-mole anyways; not a real competition yep, WCS America with all Americans just doesn't work because we are all accustomed to watching good plays from Koreans and it hurts when you see less proficient players make questionable plays and bad micro. Yep thats also why so many more Europeans watch WCS KR than WCS EU. No one actually wants to watch the worse play in WCS EU, it just hurts. Oh wait... Sorry but for the majority of viewers in general (so not just SC2, but any (e-)sports it is a big pre to watch people you can identify with, for example because they are from the some area as you are.
I'm from Europe and I don't care about WCS EU at all. Only bunch of sloppy foreigners and mediocre Koreans. WCS NA at least has some good Koreans.
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On August 19 2013 00:09 Cattlecruiser wrote:I guess people watch the superbowl because they can relate to these 6'6" monsters with a rough childhood and immense talent? Region lock in most sports? I guess + Show Spoiler +Basketball, Football, Baseball, , + Show Spoiler + doesn't count. lMFAO what a joke. People like you are keeping eSports down as a joke competition for teenagers that got rejected by REAL sports.
Dunno about the other sports but soccer has a form of region locking whereby you have to have a certain amount of players from the country the club is from in your squad at any given time.
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On August 20 2013 06:29 Ballack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2013 00:09 Cattlecruiser wrote:I guess people watch the superbowl because they can relate to these 6'6" monsters with a rough childhood and immense talent? Region lock in most sports? I guess + Show Spoiler +Basketball, Football, Baseball, , + Show Spoiler + doesn't count. lMFAO what a joke. People like you are keeping eSports down as a joke competition for teenagers that got rejected by REAL sports. Dunno about the other sports but soccer has a form of region locking whereby you have to have a certain amount of players from the country the club is from in your squad at any given time.
O really? I thought since so many players from East Asia, Africa, and South America were given opportunities to play in the Premiere League it was an open competition.
Even if it is a "region lock" it is rather giving opportunities for players outside of Europe to play in the Premiere League. It isn't like the lock is preventing Premiere teams from reaching their full potential by forcing them to not sign great players from abroad. I'm sure Neymar can come over when he chooses to.
European Hockey teams didn't force the American/Canadian players to stay locked out during the hockey lockout couple years back, they welcomed them to their league to bring the level of competition and bring more exposure to their players.
NBA loves bringing over talented players from Europe, it increases their international exposure as well as bring a different "style" of basketball from overseas.
Baseball has lots of South American, Japanese, and Korean players. Many of the best hitters are from Latin America and American fans have no problem cheering for players that can barely speak the language.
NFL doesn't care about nationality at all, from Youtube sensations like Kickalicious to Olympians like Lawrence Okoye are all given chances to compete for a roster spot.
Go ahead and run to Dota 2 to get a break from Koreans dominating, it isn't like KeSPA teams can and will dominate the game if they choose to. Good luck working in the global economy, keep being bunch of xenophobic hate mongers and see how far you will go in life.
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EG.Jaedong has joined a small, elite club of players. Alicia, Squirtle and Symbol are the only other players with three silvers but no gold, a feat arguably harder than winning an actual championship.
I lol'd
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 20 2013 12:51 DojoJoe wrote:Show nested quote + EG.Jaedong has joined a small, elite club of players. Alicia, Squirtle and Symbol are the only other players with three silvers but no gold, a feat arguably harder than winning an actual championship. I lol'd
But it's the truth!
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On August 19 2013 00:09 Cattlecruiser wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2013 15:14 Sissors wrote:This is getting ridiculous tbh. The vast majority of sports are region locked. And still for some reason those against region locks keep dragging normal sports into the discussion once they find one without region locks to shows how 'idiotic' it would be to have region locks. When told plenty of sports have region locks they start adding random demands on the sports to be considered. Team sports don't count. Olympics doesn't count. Next sports where you don't set in a chair behind a computer screen don't count... Anyway sAsImre I would wish you good luck participating in the European Athletics Championship as non-European. (Wondering what the excuse will be why that one doesn't count). Or the European Championship Squash. Or the European Aquatics Championships. Yes there are some sports where the important tournaments have no region lock. I can think of for example tennis (which surprisingly always gets dragged into it by some people), marathon running, and road cycling (although that is debtable if you can still call it an individual sport). But there are also tons of individual sports where region locked tournaments are the norm. On August 16 2013 04:04 gobbledydook wrote:On August 16 2013 03:53 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:On August 15 2013 23:24 Crownlol wrote:On August 15 2013 22:57 e4e5nf3 wrote:On August 15 2013 22:11 Crownlol wrote:On August 15 2013 21:24 gobbledydook wrote:On August 15 2013 21:04 Naturedota wrote:
It makes absolutely no sense to allow koreans, or anyone who is no living in the region, to take part in the competition in american region. Same applies to all regions, so koreans should be allowed to compete only in korea, and europeas only in europe etc. This way, whole region thing actually makes sense and promotes local scene. and then no one watches WCS America because there's not actually anyone good there. Scarlett, Goswser, State, Minigun? I'm sorry but those are hardly big draws (at least for me). Talented, maybe, but they won't draw viewers. Or were you being sarcastic? Goswser - I guess RO4 at Dreamhack (almost beating HyuN), as well as wins against Stephano, Vortix, LucifroN and YugiOh aren't that impressive. Scarlett - Probably the best foreigner in the world. These aren't big draws? Nobody watched last year :/ And it was like whack-a-mole anyways; not a real competition yep, WCS America with all Americans just doesn't work because we are all accustomed to watching good plays from Koreans and it hurts when you see less proficient players make questionable plays and bad micro. Yep thats also why so many more Europeans watch WCS KR than WCS EU. No one actually wants to watch the worse play in WCS EU, it just hurts. Oh wait... Sorry but for the majority of viewers in general (so not just SC2, but any (e-)sports it is a big pre to watch people you can identify with, for example because they are from the some area as you are. I guess people watch the superbowl because they can relate to these 6'6" monsters with a rough childhood and immense talent? Region lock in most sports? I guess Basketball, Football, Baseball, Soccer, or Hockey doesn't count. lMFAO what a joke. People like you are keeping eSports down as a joke competition for teenagers that got rejected by REAL sports.
IMO, Europeans tend to be the most provincial when it comes to sports. WCS EU attracts a lot of viewers but what works for WCS EU won't work for WCS NA. It's just a different culture.
Case in point, NBA players who visit Asia get treated like gods by the locals, especially in places like China and the Philippines. They are way bigger than the local stars these countries have. Aside from the 1992 Dream Team in Barcelona, that just doesn't happen in Europe. But in Asia, individual visit by players, even just to promote some sneakers, generate huge crowds.
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Region locking by residence for WCS would be a good thing as that would produce the FA cup type narrative I think blizz wanted to achieve with WCS. Having the top tier of players in a region being almost exclusively Korean just shunts everyone else down a prestige level. The season finals should be a competitive kick-about between the best in the regions for WCS points.
The grand finals is when you should get to see the truly world class play (just once a year), and even if due to any hypothetical region locking you only got 8 Koreans, the Ro8 onwards would still be the best of the best.
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EPT
