5 Things We Learned From the WCS America Season 2 Finals
by Fionn
Another season of the WCS America Premier League is over, so it's time to lay back, kick your legs out, and reflect on the events that have come to pass.
1. Polt and Taeja are the Captains of America
When CMStorm_Polt and Liquid`TaeJa played one of the best TvT series of the year in the Ro32, they sent notice to the rest of the competition in WCS America that they were a level above everyone else. Fast-forward to the season final, and it's hard to argue it wasn't the case. Polt became WCS America's champion, annihilating EG.Jaedong 4 - 0 in the finals following a closely contested semi-final battle against Taeja.
Photo: GHOSTCLAW
Polt and TaeJa were a combined 25 - 1 against the other players in the tournament. MacSed was the only other player in WCS AM who took even a MAP off the duo, winning a thrilling base race against TaeJa in the quarter-finals. Other than that, TaeJa and Polt only lost to each other, with Polt winning 2 - 1 in series and 6 - 4 on maps. While it's hard to expect the same level of domination next season, especially with players like Hack, HyuN, and ByuL potentially joining the fray, you have to give credit where credit is due: Polt and TaeJa crushed the competition in season 2.
You have to wonder how well Polt and Taeja would do if you dropped them off in WCS Korea. Both players were consistently placing in the top sixteen or better before they switched to the America region, so you would expect them to be in the title hunt. Maybe you wouldn't favor them in a series against Innovation or Rain, but they both surely have the talent and experience to give any player in the Korean region a good fight. If WCS America has any hopes for winning the entire World Championship at the end of the year at Blizzcon, the hopes will more than likely fall their shoulders.
2. Jaedong is Officially JaeKong
With his third second-place finish at a premier tournament in just a few month's time, EG.Jaedong has joined a small, elite club of players. Alicia, Squirtle and Symbol are the only other players with three silvers but no gold, a feat arguably harder than winning an actual championship. With his loss against Polt in the WCS America Finals, Jaedong has a special achievement even within the Kong Line: losing a final to a player of every single race in StarDust, HyuN, and Polt.
When you look at these four members of the Kong line (named after YellOw, the legendary silver surfer of Brood War), there is no question that they were—or still are—extremely good players. However, through some combination of choking and just plain bad luck, they've been denied the ultimate glory. So, what's the problem with Jaedong?
From his interview before his final with Polt, he said he was tired, having to go through a tough series with Scarlett earlier in the day before the best of seven final. While fatigue does make some small amount of sense, given Jaedong's Brood War background that saw him play preparation heavy tournaments like Proleague, MSL, and OSL, it doesn't really hold up as a reason. EG has been sending him to pretty much every tournament possible, and his good performances UNTIL the finals show that he's adapting well. Hell, he even came within one game of beating Stardust, before he lost game five due to his own poor play. The more likely answer is the more obvious one: for all his improvement since starting SC2, Jaedong's just not good enough yet.
It's scary when your favorite player has one of the oldest jinxes in pro-gaming hanging over him, but fans of Jaedong should relax. He's been consistently placing well in tournaments, has a team that's willing to send him everywhere (well, unless EG decide not to re-sign him in November; then start worrying), and already has the season 2 finals at Gamescom lined up. Just by sheer number of attempts, something has to give for Jaedong. Whether it's an unusually weak tournament, a super lucky bracket, or just continued, incremental increase in his skill, he should find a way. Until then, he and Flash can lament together about how hard it is for even legends of Brood War to win championship in StarCraft 2.
3. China and WCS America Need Each Other
In one of the most interesting storylines in a largely static SC2 world, Chinese players made their first serious foray into the international scene this season. Despite the fact that MLG made things about as difficult as possible for them, Chinese players took on the Challenger League qualifiers and made it through purely on the virtue of their skill.
Of them, the Invictus Gaming duo of Jim and MacSed were able to make it to the live finals, and they did not disappoint their country as they put in a strong performance. MacSed was the only player not named Polt to take a game off TaeJa the entire tournament, and Jim—after being eliminated in a 2-3 series versus Jaedong—was able to beat MacSed and aLive in the consolation bracket to qualify for the Season 2 Finals at Gamescom. With WCS AM in last place in terms of viewer interest, the Chinese players gave the tournament a much needed boost by being able to challenge the Korean invasion.
Until WCS decides that China warrants its own region, the Chinese players need to keep playing in WCS America. And that's a good thing for WCS America, because it needs the Chinese player. Maybe a region locked AM tournament would be better in the long run, but as long as Blizzard is keeping WCS AM totally open, the participation of the Chinese players can only benefit the region. They improve the level of competition in WCS America, and make things more interesting by giving it a better foreigner presence in the face of Korean domination.
It's a good thing for China too. With Heart of the Swarm just being released in China, good international performances from Chinese players could be what their scene needs to create interest in StarCraft II. Jim is intriguing in particular. The seventeen-year-old from Invictus Gaming is young and full of potential, getting to the top of the Korean ladder and supposedly even has a winning record against Innovation. At the very least, he's as good as the top European players, and with his proximity to the Korean server he could get even better. If Jim could succeed beyond just making the final eight at WCS AM, and actually challenge for titles and knock off some big Korean names at the season finals, then that would be a story that the entire StarCraft II community could get behind. There's a slim chance that SC2 could ever dent LoL and Dota in China, but having the best foreigner in the world would be a good place to start.
4. For Better or For Worse, WCS America is the Second Strongest Region
Although WCS America is still last place in popularity, the region known as WCS Korea-Lite has clearly pulled ahead of WCS Europe in terms of player quality, taking the spot as the second strongest of the three regions. In the six WCS Tier 1/2 events tournaments such as DreamHack, MLG, and so forth, nine WCS America players have finished first or second, compared to two for Europe and a single top finisher for Korea. Polt and TaeJa would be instant favorites if they suddenly were transferred to the European region, and players like HerO, aLive, Oz, HyuN, Jaedong etc. would be right behind them. With Stephano's retirement, WCS AM might even have the best foreigner in Scarlett.
But does it really matter?
Europe, even if it's the weakest region, has no trouble matching Korea in terms of entertainment. While the top level talent is lacking compared to WCS AM, the level of play across the board is very even, meaning you never know who could win in a given match. In America, you pretty much know what the final eight is going to look like as soon as the roster is announced, but Europe is truly anyone's game. The entire top eight from season one was replaced last season, with new heroes like Welmu and duckdeok getting a chance to shine, and long time fan favorites MC and Grubby making emotional runs.
Photo: ESL
If WCS Korea is the league you watch for the highest caliber of play, then you watch WCS Europe to see close, exciting competition between the best new and old foreigners, with just the right ratio of Koreans mixed in. America, while being the second strongest region, can't compete with Korea in terms of talent. At the same time, it can't compare to Europe in terms of entertainment. The earlier rounds tend to be brutal stomps of foreigners, often being more depressing than fun. While the later rounds tend to produce good, high-level games, the lack of foreigners saps a lot of interest.
There's no question the second season of WCS America was much better than the last, but it's still looking for its identity that sets themselves apart. Korea has the best game quality, Europe has close competition and a huge foreigner presence. What does America have? While we will have to wait and see how season three unfolds, my crystal ball tells me that we're just going to see mostly Koreans, Scarlett, and maybe a Chinese player in the top eight. In the end, it just may be the case that WCS America's identity crisis can't be solved until Blizzard overhauls the system.
5. Scarlett is a World Class Player, But That Won't Save the American Scene
If it wasn't obvious before, Acer.Scarlett is the best player in North America. It was one of her best tournaments in her career, with wins over players such as HerO, Revival and aLive in a top four finish. If it wasn't for Jaedong's decision to six-pool her in game five of the semi-finals, Scarlett might even have had a shot at knocking off Polt. Even though Polt showed masterful TvZ in his 4 - 0 shutout of Jaedong, Scarlett had defeated him 2 - 0 in the online RSL, and seemed to have plenty of confidence in her ZvT. In any case, she improved her claim to be the best foreigner in this post-Stephano world. NaNiwa, Grubby, Jim, Welmu, and Scarlett will battle for that honor at the upcoming Season II Finals, but we'll cross that bridge when we get there.
Photo: GHOSTCLAW
However, as great as Scarlett was, she was just one bright spot in a North American scene that grows more depressing by the day. ROOT.theognis, one of the better North American Terrans, might just have been the first of many WCS Premier League players to call it quits. Even playing in the highest tier of competition might not be incentive enough when Koreans are cutting you off at the Ro32 - 16 each time. Jim and Macsed were certainly a nice addition, but they could only do so much to make up for the lack of local, North American heroes. ROOT.Minigun was the second strongest North American this season, and even he only managed to place in the top twelve before getting knocked out.
Unlike Europe where the number of Koreans is kept in check by cross-server lag, WCS America is a region where there might only be three or North Americans in the Premier League next season (don't believe me? check out the Challenger League so far). With the Season 3 finals being announced for Toronto, Canada, HuKmight surge back into the elite group of foreigners, but the options for NA heroes seem to be dwindling by the week.
Region locking is something we'll be talking about on end until the rules for the 2014 WCS season are announced, but by then, there might not be a North American scene left to save.
so i gotta ask, why dont the chinese play in the korean WCS? its much closer and less lag during the online stages. is it just simply because its easier competition in AM?
On August 14 2013 03:34 zev318 wrote: so i gotta ask, why dont the chinese play in the korean WCS? its much closer and less lag during the online stages. is it just simply because its easier competition in AM?
Talking about the BW history of Jeadong and Flash, over and over again, is getting old really quickly. People should just finally realize that these are two very different games and that their success in BW does not really mean much for SC2.
The first couple of months, you could say that we have to wait for them to improve, but I think that viability of this excuse dies off very quickly. I am sorry to all JD fans, but he just didn't play very well. It is quite strange to watch him - he shows moments of briliance and then, seconds later, within the same game, he fucks up completely, without any obvious explanation. And when it comes to results, at the moment, he would be just an average faceless Korean - if he wasn't a BW star.
The amount of hype made about him is probably good for WCS AM, but it is just floating in the air. Even I have to admit to ride the wave sometimes - for example, I watched the finals from VODs and as much as I was trying to avoid spoilers, I came around the information that therer were only 4 games, meaning it was 4:0. After watching the first game, I found it very difficult to believe, that it has to be 4:0 for Polt - the JD hype train gets credit for that, because when it comes to gameplay in the series, it didn't look surprising at all.
On August 14 2013 03:34 zev318 wrote: so i gotta ask, why dont the chinese play in the korean WCS? its much closer and less lag during the online stages. is it just simply because its easier competition in AM?
Everything in Korea WCS is offline (including the qualifiers), so you have to move to Korea for months at a time to play in it.
On August 14 2013 03:34 zev318 wrote: so i gotta ask, why dont the chinese play in the korean WCS? its much closer and less lag during the online stages. is it just simply because its easier competition in AM?
One must think so, the chinese are insanely good, but they pick WCS AM for the same reason the koreans do, its easy!!! Or well thats what they thought, till it just became a second WCS Korea.....
Waiting for the moment more koreans will move to europe to be able to play without lag in WCS EU
The ognis stated that it primiraly wasnt wcs format that made him quit, it was the lack of tournaments.. he wanted more tournaments and matches but there werent any.. its a bit of a tweak to what the article states, but an important one.
On August 14 2013 03:34 zev318 wrote: so i gotta ask, why dont the chinese play in the korean WCS? its much closer and less lag during the online stages. is it just simply because its easier competition in AM?
One must think so, the chinese are insanely good, but they pick WCS AM for the same reason the koreans do, its easy!!! Or well thats what they thought, till it just became a second WCS Korea.....
Waiting for the moment more koreans will move to europe to be able to play without lag in WCS EU
Easy is not the only reason, Koreans and Chinese feel more close to US. Usually they know a lot about US due to English, movies and popular products, most of them have great interests to visit US. But for Europe, can't say the same.
On August 14 2013 03:34 zev318 wrote: so i gotta ask, why dont the chinese play in the korean WCS? its much closer and less lag during the online stages. is it just simply because its easier competition in AM?
One must think so, the chinese are insanely good, but they pick WCS AM for the same reason the koreans do, its easy!!! Or well thats what they thought, till it just became a second WCS Korea.....
Waiting for the moment more koreans will move to europe to be able to play without lag in WCS EU
Easy is not the only reason, Koreans and Chinese feel more close to US. Usually they know a lot about US due to English, movies and popular products, most of them have great interests to visit US. But for Europe, can't say the same.
Article says what I've been saying for the last year and getting flamed and warned for here, at TL.net: Region locking is the only way to keep foreign scene alive, especially in NA! Glad this opinion is getting more mainstream now.
Also was VERY impressed by Scarlett's play in the finals. It will be exciting to see if she can repeat that play in the next tourneys.
On August 14 2013 04:00 Caladan wrote: Article says what I've been saying for the last year and getting flamed for. Region locking is the only way to keep foreign scene alive, especially in NA. Glad this opinion is getting more mainstream now.
Also was VERY impressed by Scarlett's play in the finals. It will be exciting to see if she can repeat that play in the next tourneys.
On August 14 2013 03:34 zev318 wrote: so i gotta ask, why dont the chinese play in the korean WCS? its much closer and less lag during the online stages. is it just simply because its easier competition in AM?
One must think so, the chinese are insanely good, but they pick WCS AM for the same reason the koreans do, its easy!!! Or well thats what they thought, till it just became a second WCS Korea.....
Waiting for the moment more koreans will move to europe to be able to play without lag in WCS EU
Easy is not the only reason, Koreans and Chinese feel more close to US. Usually they know a lot about US due to English, movies and popular products, most of them have great interests to visit US. But for Europe, can't say the same.
EU lag too big
Another valid reason. Wasn't excluding other reasons by that.
Surprisingly lite on Polt praise for a Fionn article just after a win ^^ Good article. It's sad to say but now that WCS AM competition is fierce with almost only koreans, and with NASL production, I'm more willing to watch it.
On August 14 2013 03:46 Draconicfire wrote: Is there an official source for WCS S3 being held in Toronto? I think my brain would explode once I see it.
Holy sh*t me too. Where is this? AND WHERE DO I GET TICKETS??? Dream come true
On August 14 2013 03:46 Draconicfire wrote: Is there an official source for WCS S3 being held in Toronto? I think my brain would explode once I see it.
Holy sh*t me too. Where is this? AND WHERE DO I GET TICKETS??? Dream come true
They announced it during the AM finals that season three finals would be in Canada.
Probably a bit eager to emphasise Jaedong's annihilation at the hands of Polt, 4-0 it may have been but it was fairly close all throughout. Still, that doesn't excuse his 3 silver medals, for now Jaedong is pretty much to Starcraft what Andy Murray was to tennis.
On August 14 2013 03:46 Draconicfire wrote: Is there an official source for WCS S3 being held in Toronto? I think my brain would explode once I see it.
Holy sh*t me too. Where is this? AND WHERE DO I GET TICKETS??? Dream come true
They announced it during the AM finals that season three finals would be in Canada.
Do you know if there's a VOD? Like I believe it to be true, but I need to see it to fully accept it to be real >_>
If I remember correctly Scarlett confirmed in an interview in WCS AM finals that she'll be taking a break after this season to get treatment for her wrist. Which is probably the smart thing to do, but still a shame, especially with the Season final held in her home country.
On August 14 2013 04:05 Incognoto wrote: Scarlett is definitely probably one of the best foreigners.
I would go further: Probably one of the top Zerg including the Koreans. Beside Soulkey I don't see a Zerg who I'd consider much stronger than Scarlett. There might be a few around her level, depending on the matchup, but in general I don't think so.
... unfortunately she won't participate next season :-/
On August 14 2013 04:26 Corrish wrote: If I remember correctly Scarlett confirmed in an interview in WCS AM finals that she'll be taking a break after this season to get treatment for her wrist. Which is probably the smart thing to do, but still a shame, especially with the Season final held in her home country.
She didn't "confirm" it, she just said she might take a break. Not 100% sure yet, afaik.
On August 14 2013 04:05 Incognoto wrote: Scarlett is definitely probably one of the best foreigners.
I would go further: Probably one of the top Zerg including the Koreans. Beside Soulkey I don't see a Zerg who I'd consider much stronger than Scarlett. There might be a few around her level, depending on the matchup, but in general I don't think so.
... unfortunately she won't participate next season :-/
On August 14 2013 04:26 Corrish wrote: If I remember correctly Scarlett confirmed in an interview in WCS AM finals that she'll be taking a break after this season to get treatment for her wrist. Which is probably the smart thing to do, but still a shame, especially with the Season final held in her home country.
She didn't "confirm" it, she just said she might take a break. Not 100% sure yet, afaik.
Talking about the BW history of Jeadong and Flash, over and over again, is getting old really quickly. People should just finally realize that these are two very different games and that their success in BW does not really mean much for SC2.
The first couple of months, you could say that we have to wait for them to improve, but I think that viability of this excuse dies off very quickly. I am sorry to all JD fans, but he just didn't play very well. It is quite strange to watch him - he shows moments of briliance and then, seconds later, within the same game, he fucks up completely, without any obvious explanation. And when it comes to results, at the moment, he would be just an average faceless Korean - if he wasn't a BW star.
The amount of hype made about him is probably good for WCS AM, but it is just floating in the air. Even I have to admit to ride the wave sometimes - for example, I watched the finals from VODs and as much as I was trying to avoid spoilers, I came around the information that therer were only 4 games, meaning it was 4:0. After watching the first game, I found it very difficult to believe, that it has to be 4:0 for Polt - the JD hype train gets credit for that, because when it comes to gameplay in the series, it didn't look surprising at all.
making it to the finals in the last 3 tournaments you entered makes you a faceless korean? i mean i dont know, maybe the hype train already got me, but i disagree with your statement.
I don't see the point in region locking the WCS tournaments. It will just result in Europeans and Americans losing hard to Koreans in the main event. Having Koreans in the European and American brackets ensures that the foreigners have to prepare and work extra hard if they want to have a chance.
On August 14 2013 04:32 maartendq wrote: I don't see the point in region locking the WCS tournaments. It will just result in Europeans and Americans losing hard to Koreans in the main event. Having Koreans in the European and American brackets ensures that the foreigners have to prepare and work extra hard if they want to have a chance.
Wouldn't be too hard to fix: - Give 8 spots to Koreans, 4 spots to European and 4 Spots to Chinese/American players - Increase the prize pool for WCS Korea (-> Better players = more money) We'd have an almost identical finals, but every region would have its own tournament.
On August 14 2013 04:05 Incognoto wrote: Scarlett is definitely probably one of the best foreigners.
I would go further: Probably one of the top Zerg including the Koreans. Beside Soulkey I don't see a Zerg who I'd consider much stronger than Scarlett. There might be a few around her level, depending on the matchup, but in general I don't think so.
... unfortunately she won't participate next season :-/
On August 14 2013 04:26 Corrish wrote: If I remember correctly Scarlett confirmed in an interview in WCS AM finals that she'll be taking a break after this season to get treatment for her wrist. Which is probably the smart thing to do, but still a shame, especially with the Season final held in her home country.
She didn't "confirm" it, she just said she might take a break. Not 100% sure yet, afaik.
On August 12 2013 17:45 Gamegene wrote: asked her about the suppy/scarlett fanfic. she only replied "no comment".
what a boss!?
GOGO WCS Season 3 CANADA!!!
:p I can't play season 3 most likely
so still not 100% but it seems like it's probably the result
Yeah, unfortunately it's probably the result. But there's still hope :-P On the other side, it might be better she takes a break instead of ruining her wrist completely.
On August 14 2013 04:32 maartendq wrote: I don't see the point in region locking the WCS tournaments. It will just result in Europeans and Americans losing hard to Koreans in the main event. Having Koreans in the European and American brackets ensures that the foreigners have to prepare and work extra hard if they want to have a chance.
Wouldn't be too hard to fix: - Give 8 spots to Koreans, 4 spots to European and 4 Spots to Chinese/American players - Increase the prize pool for WCS Korea (-> Better players = more money) We'd have an almost identical finals, but every region would have its own tournament.
And it won't dilute Korean scene. Right now, this format doesn't build foreign scene, but pull apart prestigious Korean scene.
On August 14 2013 04:05 Incognoto wrote: Scarlett is definitely probably one of the best foreigners.
I would go further: Probably one of the top Zerg including the Koreans. Beside Soulkey I don't see a Zerg who I'd consider much stronger than Scarlett. There might be a few around her level, depending on the matchup, but in general I don't think so.
... unfortunately she won't participate next season :-/
On August 14 2013 04:26 Corrish wrote: If I remember correctly Scarlett confirmed in an interview in WCS AM finals that she'll be taking a break after this season to get treatment for her wrist. Which is probably the smart thing to do, but still a shame, especially with the Season final held in her home country.
She didn't "confirm" it, she just said she might take a break. Not 100% sure yet, afaik.
You overrate me ;; Especially in tournaments I play worse due to big nerve issue, and don't have solid ZvP at all ~
I am taking a break for sure, whether I can't play in WCS season 3 depends on the dates for WCS, not whether I am taking time off (99% won't be playing in it as I will be gone all of september)
Out of curiosity, what does everyone feel about the entertainment quality of these games? I thought that they were pretty good (and Terry the Intern was amazing) but was also curious about how everyone else felt about the WCS AM games.
region locking doesn't make sense: theognis quit after losing to hellokitty... both hellokitty and Polt are at the University of Texas... let's region lock Texas!!
Calling Jaedong a kong? I am offended deeply. Everyone knows that he intentionally lets the competition some time to practice before he starts his tyrannical reign.
On August 14 2013 04:05 Incognoto wrote: Scarlett is definitely probably one of the best foreigners.
I would go further: Probably one of the top Zerg including the Koreans. Beside Soulkey I don't see a Zerg who I'd consider much stronger than Scarlett. There might be a few around her level, depending on the matchup, but in general I don't think so.
... unfortunately she won't participate next season :-/
On August 14 2013 04:26 Corrish wrote: If I remember correctly Scarlett confirmed in an interview in WCS AM finals that she'll be taking a break after this season to get treatment for her wrist. Which is probably the smart thing to do, but still a shame, especially with the Season final held in her home country.
She didn't "confirm" it, she just said she might take a break. Not 100% sure yet, afaik.
You overrate me ;; Especially in tournaments I play worse due to big nerve issue, and don't have solid ZvP at all ~
I am taking a break for sure, whether I can't play in WCS season 3 depends on the dates for WCS, not whether I am taking time off (99% won't be playing in it as I will be gone all of september)
Not sure how much pride NA can take in the fact that it's the second strongest WCS according to results of it's players. Congratulations ? i guess ? Appart from Scarlett there isn't much of the actual NA scene that can put up a fight wich is a shame, and imo bad for the growth of the NA scene as a whole.
I hope other NA players rise up when Scarlett takes her break, or it's going to turn out to be a mini WCS Korea.
"Europe has close competition and a huge foreigner presence " it had 1 players in the semifinals compared to last year where there was 1 in the finals.europe is taking the wcs am path.i could care about europe after grubby and mma were eliminated
China is on the rise, new websites and big money being raised there recently and their players already doing decently in WCS. Soon, if things are really developing now in China, there could be a whole new force coming from there and for now it seems such force would join NA too. So indeed the NA competition seems to be outgrowing EU for now. Although in a completely no-KR no-CN foreigner battle between NA and EU, from NA only Scarlett would measure well with the top of EU - she is undoubtedly the best right now, even long before Stephano retired actually.
On August 14 2013 04:05 Incognoto wrote: Scarlett is definitely probably one of the best foreigners.
I would go further: Probably one of the top Zerg including the Koreans. Beside Soulkey I don't see a Zerg who I'd consider much stronger than Scarlett. There might be a few around her level, depending on the matchup, but in general I don't think so.
... unfortunately she won't participate next season :-/
On August 14 2013 04:26 Corrish wrote: If I remember correctly Scarlett confirmed in an interview in WCS AM finals that she'll be taking a break after this season to get treatment for her wrist. Which is probably the smart thing to do, but still a shame, especially with the Season final held in her home country.
She didn't "confirm" it, she just said she might take a break. Not 100% sure yet, afaik.
You overrate me ;; Especially in tournaments I play worse due to big nerve issue, and don't have solid ZvP at all ~
I am taking a break for sure, whether I can't play in WCS season 3 depends on the dates for WCS, not whether I am taking time off (99% won't be playing in it as I will be gone all of september)
Best of luck on your recovery during your break (and in the season 2 finals)!
On August 14 2013 04:32 maartendq wrote: I don't see the point in region locking the WCS tournaments. It will just result in Europeans and Americans losing hard to Koreans in the main event. Having Koreans in the European and American brackets ensures that the foreigners have to prepare and work extra hard if they want to have a chance.
Wouldn't be too hard to fix: - Give 8 spots to Koreans, 4 spots to European and 4 Spots to Chinese/American players - Increase the prize pool for WCS Korea (-> Better players = more money) We'd have an almost identical finals, but every region would have its own tournament.
And it won't dilute Korean scene. Right now, this format doesn't build foreign scene, but pull apart prestigious Korean scene.
Dilute? The fact that there's enough Korean pros to become a majority in WCS AM and also have a few people in EU means that WCS is still too small for the amount of Korean talent. Why stifle potential esports growth? Maybe in 2014 we'll see 1) a WCS KR with more challenger slots, and 2) a 4th WCS region, probably for China+SEA.
I'm probably dreaming here with the second one, as it would take lots of money/organization/broadcasting time, but... if half the WCS AM Koreans (and likely the Chinese and other SEA players) from this year chose the 4th region for 2014, we might end up with three regions with the Korean/foreigner ratio of WCS EU (which seems to have been well received by viewers). There'd be more room in AM for local NA players, and the Latin American talent Blizzard is cultivating with their Copa America.
Also, if you were thinking of diluting in terms of skill rather than player pool, the actual WCS region you're competing in affects your skill less than the pool of players you practice against regularly. If the Koreans continue practicing and laddering against each other (which they still do now, thanks to the mostly-online nature of WCS AM and EU), the skill level of their scene isn't really "diluted" either.
On August 14 2013 03:35 opisska wrote: Talking about the BW history of Jeadong and Flash, over and over again, is getting old really quickly. People should just finally realize that these are two very different games and that their success in BW does not really mean much for SC2.
The first couple of months, you could say that we have to wait for them to improve, but I think that viability of this excuse dies off very quickly. I am sorry to all JD fans, but he just didn't play very well. It is quite strange to watch him - he shows moments of briliance and then, seconds later, within the same game, he fucks up completely, without any obvious explanation. And when it comes to results, at the moment, he would be just an average faceless Korean - if he wasn't a BW star.
The amount of hype made about him is probably good for WCS AM, but it is just floating in the air. Even I have to admit to ride the wave sometimes - for example, I watched the finals from VODs and as much as I was trying to avoid spoilers, I came around the information that therer were only 4 games, meaning it was 4:0. After watching the first game, I found it very difficult to believe, that it has to be 4:0 for Polt - the JD hype train gets credit for that, because when it comes to gameplay in the series, it didn't look surprising at all.
I think that it isn't fair to say they have been unsuccessful in SC2. While they may not be the powerhouses they were in BW, they have both placed very highly at very competitive tournaments, and display a very high level of play.
WCS AM is just GSL Code A/B. And if there is no region lock, AM won't be able to seriously push their industry. And, I mean, in terms of pro teams and stuff, that is what it comes down to - being an industry.
On August 14 2013 04:05 Incognoto wrote: Scarlett is definitely probably one of the best foreigners.
I would go further: Probably one of the top Zerg including the Koreans. Beside Soulkey I don't see a Zerg who I'd consider much stronger than Scarlett. There might be a few around her level, depending on the matchup, but in general I don't think so.
... unfortunately she won't participate next season :-/
On August 14 2013 04:26 Corrish wrote: If I remember correctly Scarlett confirmed in an interview in WCS AM finals that she'll be taking a break after this season to get treatment for her wrist. Which is probably the smart thing to do, but still a shame, especially with the Season final held in her home country.
She didn't "confirm" it, she just said she might take a break. Not 100% sure yet, afaik.
You overrate me ;; Especially in tournaments I play worse due to big nerve issue, and don't have solid ZvP at all ~
I am taking a break for sure, whether I can't play in WCS season 3 depends on the dates for WCS, not whether I am taking time off (99% won't be playing in it as I will be gone all of september)
We will miss you...and hopefully it does work out since s3 finals in canada
On August 14 2013 04:34 Swisslink wrote: Wouldn't be too hard to fix: - Give 8 spots to Koreans, 4 spots to European and 4 Spots to Chinese/American players - Increase the prize pool for WCS Korea (-> Better players = more money) We'd have an almost identical finals, but every region would have its own tournament.
And the "World Finals" becomes a sped-up novelty replay of the GSL/OSL round of 8. I'm not sure that's what Blizzard wants out of their premier championship. The WCS Korea entrants may still be obvious favourites in all their matches in the coming finals, but at least the Europe and America entrants have demonstrated the potential to cause an upset just by getting this far, instead of the first round being dead air until they're knocked out.
The best solution to the WCS issue is to reduce its frequency. Go from three leagues a year to two. That will provide enough leeway for the kind of local tournaments that will keep second-tier foreigners in the game, while keeping WCS as the bar of quality they need to aim for to compete internationally.
On August 14 2013 04:00 Caladan wrote: Article says what I've been saying for the last year and getting flamed and warned for here, at TL.net: Region locking is the only way to keep foreign scene alive, especially in NA! Glad this opinion is getting more mainstream now.
Having the same WCS system but with regions locked would be extremely unfair. Koreans, who are more numerous, would have to face much much tougher opposition only to get rewarded the same as the foreigners.
For the WCS system, Shouldn't it be a better thing to like do the same as WCS korea? Getting all the players in the local area. It is maybe more costy but it would keep the koreans a bit more away from the EU and AM. Because on the other side. To compete in WCS korea you need to reside in Korea. This is unfair towards foreigners. I know most foreigners don't match up towards the skill of a certain tier of Koreans, but they at least deserve the shot. It is just an idea.
On August 14 2013 03:48 govie wrote: The ognis stated that it primiraly wasnt wcs format that made him quit, it was the lack of tournaments.. he wanted more tournaments and matches but there werent any.. its a bit of a tweak to what the article states, but an important one.
What's implied, i think, in the article is that many if not most would cite WCS ITSELF as the reason there aren't more smaller tournaments...
This is the best time for china to get involved. Jim is a smart player, and after the poor results of the Chinese at the international 3, china might be looking at Jim to be an esports hero
On August 14 2013 07:44 AmuseD wrote: For the WCS system, Shouldn't it be a better thing to like do the same as WCS korea? Getting all the players in the local area.
South Korea: 100,000 square kilometres Europe: 10,000,000 square kilometres North America: 25,000,000 square kilometres
To put it in slightly better context, South Korea as a country is a quarter the area of California.
On August 14 2013 07:44 AmuseD wrote: For the WCS system, Shouldn't it be a better thing to like do the same as WCS korea? Getting all the players in the local area.
South Korea: 100,000 square kilometres Europe: 10,000,000 square kilometres North America: 25,000,000 square kilometres
To put it in slightly better context, South Korea as a country is a quarter the area of California.
It's also like 40 % of the whole population concentrated in the Seoul metropolitan area, so there's not a problem showing up for an offline event without excessive travel.
EDIT: Wikipedia says it's 49 % of SK's population living in the Seoul metro area.
On August 14 2013 03:34 zev318 wrote: so i gotta ask, why dont the chinese play in the korean WCS? its much closer and less lag during the online stages. is it just simply because its easier competition in AM?
Did we really need the reflection to see Polt and Taeja dominate? They were consistently ro16 last year in GSL. Taeja was making the ro4 before he left korea. No one else in AM comes close to that.
Also why does the WCS have to worry about ensuring only AM play in WCS AM? Shouldn't it just be about giving great games? Scarlett still made ro4, Demuslim and Minigun made ro16. I don't see why that is so bad. If we can get a tournament with high level players and a couple foreigners why is this a problem? Challenger league still gives up and coming players a chance to show themselves.
On August 14 2013 08:25 GWdeathscythe wrote: Calling him Jaekong is so disrespectful.
But calling Stork a kong isn't, correct? If you end up with a lot of second places but no gold medals in Starcraft, you're a kong. That description fits Jaedong perfectly.
On August 14 2013 08:25 GWdeathscythe wrote: Calling him Jaekong is so disrespectful.
But calling Stork a kong isn't, correct? If you end up with a lot of second places but no gold medals in Starcraft, you're a kong. That description fits Jaedong perfectly.
It is the way you say it, mocking his name. Just like "Storkong" would sound disrespectful to me, but that is my way to see things. "Jaedong enters the Kong line" or something similiar without the moking would sound better.
On August 14 2013 05:49 figq wrote: China is on the rise, new websites and big money being raised there recently and their players already doing decently in WCS. Soon, if things are really developing now in China, there could be a whole new force coming from there and for now it seems such force would join NA too. So indeed the NA competition seems to be outgrowing EU for now. Although in a completely no-KR no-CN foreigner battle between NA and EU, from NA only Scarlett would measure well with the top of EU - she is undoubtedly the best right now, even long before Stephano retired actually.
It's a shame this isn't region locked by now, you should be forced to play on where you actually live. It's not WCS America it's WCS "Little Korea" lol
On August 14 2013 08:44 Incubus1993 wrote: It's a shame this isn't region locked by now, you should be forced to play on where you actually live. It's not WCS America it's WCS "Little Korea" lol
If they region lock it, they might as well make a East vs West, as NA scene would be hard to justify skillwise.
Well, what I learned is that WCS America does nothing for the american scene. They need some rules in EU/NA so you can limit the amount of koreans that can qualify. It makes no sense to have every WCS won by koreans and money given back in Korea.
What was their justification for no region lock? Hoping Koreans would eventually voluntarily set up shop in foreign lands and develop local talent there via skill osmosis?
Region Locking the WCS just replaces one problem with another.
WCS's current system is going to give us one HELL of a Global Final. Already the Season 2 final roster is stacked full of so many ridiculously good and popular players that I personally have a very hard time knowing who I even want to cheer for.
Are they mostly Korean pros? Yes. Does that matter? Absolutely not.
WCS's intended goal is to make a global tournament that tries to fairly grant one player the title of global champion. Region Locked all it does is keep all of the real competition locked away in Korea only to stomp all over the foreigners when we finally get to the finals. It takes all of the excitement out of the finals and leaves everyone with a horrible aftertaste.
What the American Scene needs is what the European scene already has, an independent and self serving local scene. Smaller region locked lans and online cups that give the NA players and teams a chance to compete among themselves.
Shoutcraft America and Redbull Battlegrounds are nice starts, but there needs to be more events like them, and more events that aren't invite only to give the smaller less known NA teams out there a chance to compete.
We shouldn't be throwing ourselves at Blizzard's feet to build something for us, that isn't what Europe did. We need to solve this problem ourselves.
On August 14 2013 08:53 synd wrote: Well, what I learned is that WCS America is a tournament and not a social enterprise. They need some rules in EU/NA so you can limit the amount of Better Players that can qualify. It makes no sense to have every WCS won by Better Players and money given to the players who deserve it.
gg Scarlett though
we all have our opinions, my opinion causes me to see your post as edited.
should we restrict tennis players from entering the US open ?Rol garos? Aus Open ? Wimbleton? only limited number of players from other regions are allowed? we should ban federer,joker and nadal from entering tournaments outside where they live. its only fair! we need to grow our local scenes!
no. because that's retarded.
why is this mentality existent in the 'esports' community?
On August 14 2013 05:49 figq wrote: China is on the rise, new websites and big money being raised there recently and their players already doing decently in WCS. Soon, if things are really developing now in China, there could be a whole new force coming from there and for now it seems such force would join NA too. So indeed the NA competition seems to be outgrowing EU for now. Although in a completely no-KR no-CN foreigner battle between NA and EU, from NA only Scarlett would measure well with the top of EU - she is undoubtedly the best right now, even long before Stephano retired actually.
elephant in the room?
No, more like a dragon egg. Might hatch some day, might not. It may not even be a real dragon egg, for all we know.
Whereas with the elephant in the room, we did know for sure that there was an elephant present from the start.
China looks very promising, but that's about it. We can't place any sure bets on China yet.
On August 14 2013 08:53 synd wrote: Well, what I learned is that WCS America is a tournament and not a social enterprise. They need some rules in EU/NA so you can limit the amount of Better Players that can qualify. It makes no sense to have every WCS won by Better Players and money given to the players who deserve it.
gg Scarlett though
we all have our opinions, my opinion causes me to see your post as edited.
should we restrict tennis players from entering the US open ?Rol garos? Aus Open ? Wimbleton? only limited number of players from other regions are allowed? we should ban federer,joker and nadal from entering tournaments outside where they live. its only fair! we need to grow our local scenes!
no. because that's retarded.
why is this mentality existent in the 'esports' community?
What bothers me most about that mentality is that it is so quintessentially "UnAmerican."
We're supposed to be the culture that thrives on competition not the ones that hide away from it.
On August 14 2013 08:53 synd wrote: Well, what I learned is that WCS America does nothing for the american scene. They need some rules in EU/NA so you can limit the amount of koreans that can qualify. It makes no sense to have every WCS won by koreans and money given back in Korea.
gg Scarlett though
I should have an automated response for people like you. I've said it so many times I've lost track. I'll keep it simple: don't look at the tag in front of it because they're only prelims. Country has nothing to do with it and it never has.
On August 14 2013 08:53 synd wrote: Well, what I learned is that WCS America is a tournament and not a social enterprise. They need some rules in EU/NA so you can limit the amount of Better Players that can qualify. It makes no sense to have every WCS won by Better Players and money given to the players who deserve it.
gg Scarlett though
we all have our opinions, my opinion causes me to see your post as edited.
should we restrict tennis players from entering the US open ?Rol garos? Aus Open ? Wimbleton? only limited number of players from other regions are allowed? we should ban federer,joker and nadal from entering tournaments outside where they live. its only fair! we need to grow our local scenes!
no. because that's retarded.
why is this mentality existent in the 'esports' community?
If you look at WCS like that than not only you failed to understand what WCS was supposed to be but also Blizzard horribly failed at making it do what it was supposed to.
So in my opinion WCS should've been a kind of long-ish tournament for every region where players push themselves to win it. But by playing lots of games and good opponents from their respective regions + some small number of koreans (not as many koreans as foreigners, lol wtf), they're going to be in shape to compete at the highest lvl of SC2 - WCS Global Finals. So neither do the koreans who chose to participate in WCS EU/NA should have an easy time. They should go through a region-change qualifier. Something that should control the flow so in order for you to change regions, you should be in the for example 6-8 spots that are eligable to change regions.
I think this is waaaaaaay better.
On August 14 2013 10:12 StarStruck wrote: What if we already knew all these things? o_O
On August 14 2013 08:53 synd wrote: Well, what I learned is that WCS America does nothing for the american scene. They need some rules in EU/NA so you can limit the amount of koreans that can qualify. It makes no sense to have every WCS won by koreans and money given back in Korea.
gg Scarlett though
I should have an automated response for people like you. I've said it so many times I've lost track. I'll keep it simple: don't look at the tag in front of it because they're only prelims. Country has nothing to do with it and it never has.
Well, if we also forget about the country 'tag', we should also forget about traveling. Like - you have to travel to Korea to be competing in tournament as it was in BW. But it won't be even half as glorious as BW days were for Korea since alslo the sponsorships is much lower and SC2 isn't that good according to viewers as BW was. We'll go back to BW and it won't be even half as glorious as it was.
On August 14 2013 08:53 synd wrote: Well, what I learned is that WCS America is a tournament and not a social enterprise. They need some rules in EU/NA so you can limit the amount of Better Players that can qualify. It makes no sense to have every WCS won by Better Players and money given to the players who deserve it.
gg Scarlett though
we all have our opinions, my opinion causes me to see your post as edited.
should we restrict tennis players from entering the US open ?Rol garos? Aus Open ? Wimbleton? only limited number of players from other regions are allowed? we should ban federer,joker and nadal from entering tournaments outside where they live. its only fair! we need to grow our local scenes!
no. because that's retarded.
why is this mentality existent in the 'esports' community?
Well... I've never been to Australia (yet), but... Don't you have ANY Australian tourneys? If I take football, we have city tourneys, we have district tourneys, we have state tourneys, we have federal tourneys, we have european tourneys - AND then we have the world cup.
Every level has, and needs, his own tourneys. It's pretty logical, as not every team is equally big, strong, has the same finanical capability, etc etc. A small team of a 5000 pop town will never be able to compete with Barcelona, Manchester or Munich. But that's just fine, they have their own league and their own championships.
So, back to SC2, we need an American Championship, and then we have a World Championship. Like in real sports.
On August 14 2013 08:53 synd wrote: Well, what I learned is that WCS America is a tournament and not a social enterprise. They need some rules in EU/NA so you can limit the amount of Better Players that can qualify. It makes no sense to have every WCS won by Better Players and money given to the players who deserve it.
gg Scarlett though
we all have our opinions, my opinion causes me to see your post as edited.
should we restrict tennis players from entering the US open ?Rol garos? Aus Open ? Wimbleton? only limited number of players from other regions are allowed? we should ban federer,joker and nadal from entering tournaments outside where they live. its only fair! we need to grow our local scenes!
no. because that's retarded.
why is this mentality existent in the 'esports' community?
Well... I've never been to Australia (yet), but... Don't you have ANY Australian tourneys? If I take football, we have city tourneys, we have district tourneys, we have state tourneys, we have federal tourneys, we have european tourneys - AND then we have the world cup. Every level has, and needs, his own tourneys. It's pretty logical, as not every team is equally big, strong, has the same finanical capability, etc etc. A small team of a 5000 pop town will never be able to compete with Barcelona, Manchester or Munich. But that's just fine, they have their own league and their own championships.
So, back to SC2, we need a American Championship, and then we have a World Championship. Like in real sports.
That's a cool idea, but that doesn't mean that's what WCS needs to be.
That's a cool niche for someone else to come along and fill. If the NA scene wants it badly enough then it'll create it for itself.
Well, it already existed in WCG (World Cyber Games)... with national finals and then world finals. But WCG is now pretty dead. I'd really like WCS to fill its gap.
On August 14 2013 09:44 m0ck wrote: So, in 3½ months the US scene will be gone? ^^
There isn't really much of a pro scene in the US as is. It's just a bunch of amateur gamers really. Even some of the strongest Americans are basically just college students who play when they don't have class (which is impressive how Polt manages).
On August 14 2013 09:28 Xahhk wrote: What was their justification for no region lock? Hoping Koreans would eventually voluntarily set up shop in foreign lands and develop local talent there via skill osmosis?
The plan was for korean players to set up shop in EU/NA, find a local girl and have children. Then maybe their children can truly represent the region and compete with the Koreans.
(Sorry, couldn't help myself. I had to create an account here just to post that. The current system is just too stupid. Does anyone know why they arn't looking at real sports (not the american versions but the global versions) when they set up this WCS system? I mean it's been done before. WCS/Blizzard arn't inventing the wheel for the first time here)
On August 14 2013 09:28 Xahhk wrote: What was their justification for no region lock? Hoping Koreans would eventually voluntarily set up shop in foreign lands and develop local talent there via skill osmosis?
The plan was for korean players to set up shop in EU/NA, find a local girl and have children. Then maybe their children can truly represent the region and compete with the Koreans.
(Sorry, couldn't help myself. I had to create an account here just to post that. The current system is just too stupid. Does anyone know why they arn't looking at real sports (not the american versions but the global versions) when they set up this WCS system? I mean it's been done before. WCS/Blizzard arn't inventing the wheel for the first time here)
A) New system was already fairly negatively received by people wishing to travel and play in lots of tournaments given the short money-making period that is success in starcraft.
B) Multiple regions are already not represented, what do then? Force Chinese and Taiwanese players to go to offline qualifiers in Korea and stay there for 3 months to even get into the premier league? Where do you region lock them?
C) System already had to integrate itself with existing tournaments. GSL, OSL, Dreamhack, IEM, etc weren't going to just go "Oh Blizzard is taking over? Cool we'll just stop doing stuff now."
Honestly it's not a great solution still. I'd prefer there to be more WCS still, more similar to last year's regions, except whilst integrated with the tournaments.
On August 14 2013 11:13 Zethiel wrote: I also wanted to note, WCS AM is the only WCS where the first place, doesn't get a trophy. IMHO, very sad/lame.
That's on NASL. That's not Blizzard's fault.
Yep, plus have you seen the other trophies that we give out in other tournaments? If you want to talk about jokes. I'd say a lot of the trophies look like jokes.
On August 14 2013 11:35 jax1492 wrote: NA is not better than EU, Its Korea lite I agree but I still think EU was better.
Honestly with their current play, I don't think anyone in the Ro8 EU holds a candle to Taeja or Polt. Jaedong maybe because JvP. That's really what their referring to here. The top of WCS NA this season is far stronger in appearance to the top of WCS EU. It was probably the other way around last season with TLO, Stephano and Dimaga looking beastly, and Mvp and ForGG looking fairly strong too. MC, Finale, Grubby, Welmu, Naniwa, MMA doesn't have the same strength to Jim, Taeja, Polt, Jaedong, Scarlett.
I'd love to see some EU peeps do well. I mean, how can you not cheer for Grubby? But NA has a stronger lineup this season imo. (Of course this is all subjective, even if someone brought out stats).
On August 14 2013 09:28 Xahhk wrote: What was their justification for no region lock? Hoping Koreans would eventually voluntarily set up shop in foreign lands and develop local talent there via skill osmosis?
The plan was for korean players to set up shop in EU/NA, find a local girl and have children. Then maybe their children can truly represent the region and compete with the Koreans.
(Sorry, couldn't help myself. I had to create an account here just to post that. The current system is just too stupid. Does anyone know why they arn't looking at real sports (not the american versions but the global versions) when they set up this WCS system? I mean it's been done before. WCS/Blizzard arn't inventing the wheel for the first time here)
A) New system was already fairly negatively received by people wishing to travel and play in lots of tournaments given the short money-making period that is success in starcraft.
B) Multiple regions are already not represented, what do then? Force Chinese and Taiwanese players to go to offline qualifiers in Korea and stay there for 3 months to even get into the premier league? Where do you region lock them?
C) System already had to integrate itself with existing tournaments. GSL, OSL, Dreamhack, IEM, etc weren't going to just go "Oh Blizzard is taking over? Cool we'll just stop doing stuff now."
Honestly it's not a great solution still. I'd prefer there to be more WCS still, more similar to last year's regions, except whilst integrated with the tournaments.
EDIT: What? No trophy? =(
A) I don't see the difference from real sports. Lots of sports have the same issue and handle it. Why not look at how they do it? Or have they and I don't understand it?
B) This is exactly why i asked what i did. This is the same challange all new sports have and all old sports have overcome. Again, why not look at what they did?
C) I have absolutly no idea why those tournaments could not go on as they were. Again i would like to see some more explanations from the brains behind the current system.
That is besically what I'm asking for. There are people at Blizzard/WCS that have been payed to research this and come up with the current system (I assume). What did they come up with and why did they recomend this path? In my agruably limited knowledge of real sports history it doesn't seem like they are following in the already tried paths but rather walking their own way. They also seem very impatient with results (no sport was built over a short period of time). I would love to see somewhere on teamliquid or else some of the real brains behind this system share their ideas and beliefs to better understand their reasoning.
Also, a real vision for WCS would be nice. Is it to promote korean Esports (if so they are doing a good job now) or is it to promote Esports everywhere? As a contrast to this you can look at Valve and TI3 who was a smashing success in promoting Esports all over the globe with the top 4 teams placing from 3 different regions. Everything I read about Dota2 and it's setup of tournaments etc reminds me of real sports outside Esport. When I look at SC2 I just get confused and understand nothing of how they plan to create a real international competition that sparks interest all around the world.
Sidenote. The best SC2 tournament I have seen so far (and I have watched all the big ones now for over a year) was the WCS Europe finals 2012. I was really happy after that tournament and really felt this sport was heading in the right direction. Then this year came and I'm just confused. I thought time might shed some light but 6 months later I'm none the wiser.
WCS Europe 2012 was a tremendous success, no one is arguing it wasn't.
The WCS GLOBAL FINALS of 2012 was a complete flop.
The whole point in not region locking the tournament was to build more hype for the finals by having THAT be the focus of the tournament.
WCS Europe was the only good thing to really come out of the WCS 2012 Tournament. WCS America, WCS Korea and the Global Finals were all nowhere near as successful in creating any of the same excitement Europe did.
This year, the finals are going to rock. The Season 2 finals is already an incredible looking tournament with a roster so stacked you can't help but not get hyped for it.
The Global Finals at Blizzcon is going to be even better.
WCS Korea, I mean America, really does need to do something about all these Koreans. I think they have their place in other tournaments, but when you're talking about a tournament for North America, maybe it should only be North Americans. Maybe that little bit of internal competition will produce some better North American players as they compete against each other.
I mean seriously, why bother calling it WCS America if it's mostly made up of Koreans.
On a different note: Scarlett is the North American hope. One of the few NA players on a tier 2 Korean level.
On August 14 2013 12:41 Vindicare605 wrote: WCS Europe 2012 was a tremendous success, no one is arguing it wasn't.
The WCS GLOBAL FINALS of 2012 was a complete flop.
The whole point in not region locking the tournament was to build more hype for the finals by having THAT be the focus of the tournament.
WCS Europe was the only good thing to really come out of the WCS 2012 Tournament. WCS America, WCS Korea and the Global Finals were all nowhere near as successful in creating any of the same excitement Europe did.
This year, the finals are going to rock. The Season 2 finals is already an incredible looking tournament with a roster so stacked you can't help but not get hyped for it.
The Global Finals at Blizzcon is going to be even better.
I'm not sure if you're answering me seince you didn't quote but I'll assume you are and answer since it seems to tie together with some of what I wrote. If you did answer me i must say "wow! talk about not answering a single of my 15 or so questions".
But lets look at your argument with some base facts.
- WCS EU 2012 hosted 0 korean participants and only 1 of the at the current time arguably top 16 players in the world (Stephano). - There were many tournaments in 2012 that hosted way more than 1 of the top 16 players of the worlds (notably GSLs, OSL, MLG and probably some Dreamhack). - WSC EU 2012 was the most successful tournament of 2012 (Highest viewers on streams, barcarfts hype etc that i could see).
Now, with this information you argue that this seasons finals and the years finals will be even greater because: - It will hold the top 16 players in the world with about 12 koreans for this seasons finals and 15-16 koreans for the world finals at blizcon.
I do not see the correlation.
If anything it looks like the other less successful tournaments of 2012. The fact that WCS EU 2012 had 0 koreans and still was so well recieved by the public should make you stop and think. I'm not saying that all koreans should be kicked out or anything like it. But I am saying that maybe gathering the most skilled players of the world from one country isn't the most important thing to create a great global sports event. And there should be some lessons learned here and from the flop you mentioned at the finals (which was aired at an abysmal time in Europe with loads of streaming problems). And I would still like to see/read some serious answers/thoughts from the people behind the current system about this.
Oh well. I guess I'll just get the same old answers as anyone else who have tried to ask these questions.
"Next tournament will be greater" "I just want to see the best players" - broodwar elitist fans "Koreans are so much better that it's unfair to give any money to anyone else.."
I'll continue to tune into these tournaments whenever I want to see who's the current top Korean in each region. I just find that this curiosity happens less and less offen now and I find that I would love to see who's the best outside of Korea sometime too. In the mean time I'll just have to wait another year for TI4 to see a real international tournament.
On August 14 2013 08:44 Incubus1993 wrote: It's a shame this isn't region locked by now, you should be forced to play on where you actually live. It's not WCS America it's WCS "Little Korea" lol
If they region lock it, they might as well make a East vs West, as NA scene would be hard to justify skillwise.
It has to be given the opportunity to develop. With the NA scene essentially limited to WCS, the opportunities for NA players to compete and actually win some money are few and far between. Permit a bunch of Koreans to fly out here for a weekend and take 90% of the money every time that one tournament rolls around, and you essentially guarantee that the domestic scene will remain stifled for good. NA is never going to get good if its players have nothing to play for.
We learned people can not commentate and observe at the same time well at all. Please, please NASL, hire a dedicated observer. It is so hard to watch WCS AM after watcing WCS EU or KR.
I liked the players that were fielded for World Cyber Games before WCS came into the scene. Along we WCG we had open bracket MLGs and the other random big LANs. Shoutcraft was a great event to get some local talent in the limelight. But its hard to run events when no one watches it.
On August 14 2013 08:53 synd wrote: Well, what I learned is that WCS America is a tournament and not a social enterprise. They need some rules in EU/NA so you can limit the amount of Better Players that can qualify. It makes no sense to have every WCS won by Better Players and money given to the players who deserve it.
gg Scarlett though
we all have our opinions, my opinion causes me to see your post as edited.
should we restrict tennis players from entering the US open ?Rol garos? Aus Open ? Wimbleton? only limited number of players from other regions are allowed? we should ban federer,joker and nadal from entering tournaments outside where they live. its only fair! we need to grow our local scenes!
no. because that's retarded.
why is this mentality existent in the 'esports' community?
Because "Starcraft" is different then regular sports and so are it's fans, please get that into your thick skull.
I do have a question though for you, how populair around the world would Tennis be if it was all korean at the top all the time ?
its such a wierd dichotomy that wcs has created and how the three tourneys are shaping up to be. I really liked the write up, and while i agree that it is a sad state for am, i was really entertained by these finals. They were great games and pretty good content all around. After seeing the caster line up im getting really excited about this wcs final, cant wait to see the amazing games and cheer for scarlett to make a suprise run at it!!
On August 14 2013 13:42 FeUerFlieGe wrote: WCS Korea, I mean America, really does need to do something about all these Koreans. I think they have their place in other tournaments, but when you're talking about a tournament for North America, maybe it should only be North Americans. Maybe that little bit of internal competition will produce some better North American players as they compete against each other.
I mean seriously, why bother calling it WCS America if it's mostly made up of Koreans.
On a different note: Scarlett is the North American hope. One of the few NA players on a tier 2 Korean level.
You know that Polt is attending the University of Texas, right? He lives in America, why shouldn't he be allowed to attend an American tournament? Because of his ethnicity? Because he's too good?
It's cases like him and everyone on EG that make the "Well just region lock it!" arguments almost completely baseless in context.
I'm curious which five players would be worthy contenders at a global final representing America. The only one that pops into my head is Scarlett. And as long as this problem remains unsolved, we will just circlejerk around one another. We sure had nonKoreans upsetting some of the more known players from SK, but as long as there is no thriving scene that is able to throw worthy contenders at the Koreans, all of this regionlock is moot.
Was it ever questioned that Polt and Taeja were a level above most everyone in this tournament? They were my only two thoughts for possible champion throughout the whole tournament and once the quarterfinal bracket was out, it just became a question of what score polt would beat taeja by in the semifinals
On August 14 2013 11:13 Zethiel wrote: I also wanted to note, WCS AM is the only WCS where the first place, doesn't get a trophy. IMHO, very sad/lame.
That's on NASL. That's not Blizzard's fault.
Well as much as whom ever injects the cash for the winners (money pool prize), and it is the same $$ for each region, they should also set the rule for the trophy, or maybe even better, if NASL wasn't going to be able to afford to give away a trophy as nice(or lame to some gold medalists here). maybe they shouldn't be picked to host that season event.
I'm guessing that MLG has some problems with blizzard, because besides not going with WCS AM S2, they decided (so far) not to include SC2 on their next MLG tour (as far as I remember reading here on TL), which is really sad because I think no-one else is at the same level to host an event in US.
Even if there is not the same trophy, even if it's just a medal made of chocolate, it's not nice to see that some get a trophy, and other don't (at least on my opinion). What's next? Hosts/Sponsors wanting to add another (money check) prize for the first place, and NASL won't be able to keep up with that? Meh... I think it should be the same for all of the WCS regions.
Another thing that bothered me and I think has to be the same for all regions is the players setup. They all should be forced to use the same noise dumping headphones, and be provided with a proper cabin with noise isolation to avoid listening to the crowd or the casters. I kind of felt that Grubby was playing under unfair circumstances because he wasn't using the same headphones that his opponents had on. I have the same Sennheiser headphones and I can say those 3M ones the other players were using provide far better noise cancellation than then closed back Sennheisers. There's nothing that should be left to chance, and all players should be provided with the same setup on all regions (at least on my opinion).
I think it's a good decision to keep the WCS open to anyone, regardless of nation/region combinations. Because of the competitive nature of SC2 it wouldn't make sense for Blizzard to shelter the weak players by going "no, bad koreans, don't pick on the poor europeans and americans, stay home". I believe that in a competitive scene such as this, you need to either get good enough to compete with whoever might challenge you, regardless of their nationality, or go home and try to become so. You lost against someone better? It's not their fault for being too good, it's your fault for not being good enough. Winning a tournament just because you had no decent competitors would make the victory rather shallow and pointless, plus you'd always know that you won just because better players weren't allowed to compete, and I don't think that's what a competitive scene should be about.
In bw jaedong had a week or two AT LEAST to practice FOR ONE BO5 before facing flash, or any other finalist. the quality of games that comes from this type of training schedule is Completely different from a LAN type atmosphere, where the finals are Literally 2 hours after the semi finals. It is so so so different and i'm not even surprised.
if you plan on playing in lans, just practice on ladder all day every day, because you basically just keep going up against random people one after the other. If you actually have time to prepare vs a specific opponent though, play custom games and stuff because mind games will probably play a lot more of an important role in the series.
On August 14 2013 11:13 Zethiel wrote: I also wanted to note, WCS AM is the only WCS where the first place, doesn't get a trophy. IMHO, very sad/lame.
That's on NASL. That's not Blizzard's fault.
Well as much as whom ever injects the cash for the winners (money pool prize), and it is the same $$ for each region, they should also set the rule for the trophy, or maybe even better, if NASL wasn't going to be able to afford to give away a trophy as nice(or lame to some gold medalists here). maybe they shouldn't be picked to host that season event.
Wait. Are you seriously trying to suggest that affording a trophy is more important than being able to put on a good tournament? What? What?!
On August 14 2013 04:05 Incognoto wrote: Scarlett is definitely probably one of the best foreigners.
I would go further: Probably one of the top Zerg including the Koreans. Beside Soulkey I don't see a Zerg who I'd consider much stronger than Scarlett. There might be a few around her level, depending on the matchup, but in general I don't think so.
... unfortunately she won't participate next season :-/
On August 14 2013 04:26 Corrish wrote: If I remember correctly Scarlett confirmed in an interview in WCS AM finals that she'll be taking a break after this season to get treatment for her wrist. Which is probably the smart thing to do, but still a shame, especially with the Season final held in her home country.
She didn't "confirm" it, she just said she might take a break. Not 100% sure yet, afaik.
You overrate me ;; Especially in tournaments I play worse due to big nerve issue, and don't have solid ZvP at all ~
I am taking a break for sure, whether I can't play in WCS season 3 depends on the dates for WCS, not whether I am taking time off (99% won't be playing in it as I will be gone all of september)
sorry, the cross isn't optional
Aw, we needed a foreign hero for the post-Stephano era. Thought scarlett could do it. damn wrists. pro gamers should really get into sword fighting or some shit like that to improve wrist strength
WCS America is the second strongest scene? That's probably true. I don't see how that's relevant though.
The only reason that it's easier for Koreans (due to lag) to play on NA server, qualify and then get a spot in WCS AM than it is in EU, so really WCS AM is almost a second WCS KR. Honestly if you look at this tournament, you'll see it's stacked with great Korean players. Not American ones (though there are a select few good NA players for sure). Hence I don't see how it's relevant to say AM is currently stronger than EU. ^^
I really disagree that WCS America > WCS Europe right now. Just look at the top players of each region (let's say top8), you have the same level in both region for the top players, the main difference comes from the rest of the feild, which is really, really worst in America. And Oz and aLive for example wouldn't make the feild better in Europe as they do in America.
And that write up about scarlett being the best foreigner, I'm okay with american fans trying to see the best where they can, but she just acheived her first top4 in a premier tournamement and has only 2 wins in major tournament, one being a WCS national championship. You can hardly match someone like Naniwa in the european scene, even if he actually seems to struggle in the latest stages of the tournaments.
On August 14 2013 16:39 Neonico wrote: I really disagree that WCS America > WCS Europe right now. Just look at the top players of each region (let's say top8), you have the same level in both region for the top players, the main difference comes from the rest of the feild, which is really, really worst in America. And Oz and aLive for example wouldn't make the feild better in Europe as they do in America.
And that write up about scarlett being the best foreigner, I'm okay with american fans trying to see the best where they can, but she just acheived her first top4 in a premier tournamement and has only 2 wins in major tournament, one being a WCS national championship. You can hardly match someone like Naniwa in the european scene, even if he actually seems to struggle in the latest stages of the tournaments.
WCS AM is much more stacked with good Koreans than WCS EU and Scarlett made it farther in than Naniwa did. For sure Naniwa has a nice list of accomplishments, but as of right now I believe Scarlett is the better player.
Better player in SC2 is almost subjective anyway, Innovation is considered #1 and couldn't take one game off of Maru. My 2 cents anyway; ^^
WCS America should be renamed WCS Pacific. Then the Americans can stop whining and Koreans, non-Korean Asians, Australians, South Americans (ok it's a stretch) and Canadians will all be included in the title.
Changes nothing but would do a better job of describing what the tournament is. There is enough of a 'Pacific' WCS scene to sustain a WCS tournament. There isn't enough of an 'American' scene.
On August 14 2013 08:47 Inimic wrote: Scarlett won't save the "American" scene? She's Canadian. Just like Huk. Sorry, 'Murica.
WCS America is obviously WCS North America, despite the "AM" abbreviation. They invited NA players to play in S1, not just American players.
When we're talking EU vs "America", generally people are referencing North America - comparing continent to continent and not country to continent. Korea is the only nation that is good enough to be compared to continents.
On August 14 2013 08:47 Inimic wrote: Scarlett won't save the "American" scene? She's Canadian. Just like Huk. Sorry, 'Murica.
WCS America is obviously WCS North America, despite the "AM" abbreviation. They invited NA players to play in S1, not just American players.
When we're talking EU vs "America", generally people are referencing North America - comparing continent to continent and not country to continent. Korea is the only nation that is good enough to be compared to continents.
I consider it "Americas". North America, United States of America, South America (continent)
On August 14 2013 08:47 Inimic wrote: Scarlett won't save the "American" scene? She's Canadian. Just like Huk. Sorry, 'Murica.
WCS America is obviously WCS North America, despite the "AM" abbreviation. They invited NA players to play in S1, not just American players.
When we're talking EU vs "America", generally people are referencing North America - comparing continent to continent and not country to continent. Korea is the only nation that is good enough to be compared to continents.
WCS America is WCS North + South America. Maybe they should've called it WCS Americas like the server; Would've been less confusing probably.
WCS NA is lacking because of poor production. NASL did a much better job than MLG but compare it to ESL then it is soooooo boring to watch! you have all these small commercials and the time filler stuff is not that fun to watch. ESL makes the downtime seem way less + it is more fun and the analysist screen is very nice to see.
And the reason why more tune in to WCS EU is ofc because of the time zone, but in terms of players then everyone is equal. It is not a matter of lower skill level with more players at that level. Truth be told it is at a higher level than what NA can present. Except for Scarlett WCS NA has nothing to offer except tons of Koreans that are equal. And not a lot of people want to waste 4 hours watching Sage and Alive stomping 2 americans. Ro16 is where WCS NA becomes okay to watch.
WCS NA needs a new direction from their RO16 and forwards. Otherwise the viewing numbers won't change.
On August 14 2013 08:53 synd wrote: Well, what I learned is that WCS America is a tournament and not a social enterprise. They need some rules in EU/NA so you can limit the amount of Better Players that can qualify. It makes no sense to have every WCS won by Better Players and money given to the players who deserve it.
gg Scarlett though
we all have our opinions, my opinion causes me to see your post as edited.
should we restrict tennis players from entering the US open ?Rol garos? Aus Open ? Wimbleton? only limited number of players from other regions are allowed? we should ban federer,joker and nadal from entering tournaments outside where they live. its only fair! we need to grow our local scenes!
no. because that's retarded.
why is this mentality existent in the 'esports' community?
Yes because Brazil is allowed to enter in the European Championship soccer, amirite? Why is it that people like you only refer to the tournaments that use the same system as you want and act like all others don't exist and only in e-sports there could be 'region locks'? But but, European Championship is between countries and that is different!!1!!!11. No it isn't, but even if it is, then I refer you to the UEFA Championsleague. Look, also only for European countries (+ special cases).
But but, those are Europeans and everyone knows they are communists anyway!!1!!!1. Okay, then I refer you with some googlines to the CONCACAF Championes League. Only for clubs from North/Central American and Caribean countries. You can whine what you want as African country, you aren't allowed to enter. No matter how retarded you think that is.
So the next problems mentioned here with region lock (I assume here it is locked for place of residence, not birth country, which would be weird. Then either they can for example add Africa to Europe, or let those people decide wherever they want to play when they don't have an own WCS).
"The American scene is nothing without the Koreans". No it is nothing with them. It is effectively just code A broadcasted at slightly more convenient times for American viewers. The longer it stays like that, the worse it will get. Sure once in a while a local will do reasonable, but thats not enough. If you now remove the Koreans you can start CPR and get the scene alive again, so people want to watch it. But using the excuse the scene is almost dead isn't a reason let it die comlpetely.
"But Polt lives in the US, you also want to ban him?". There is no problem whatsoever with a Polt playing in WCS AM. The problem is being completely overrun by Koreans. Compare it to WCS EU, there is no issue with a few Koreans, it is actually quite nice. So in AM it also doesn't matter if a few Koreans who live in America play in WCS AM.
So what to do besides region lock? Then give WCS KR more places for WCS global? Yep sounds reasonable. Similar to many 'real' sports, a good country is allowed to send more atletes. More money for WCS KR? Not saying it should be exactly the same, but I also don't see any reason why they should get more money (from Blizzard). Being a higher level competition is no reason to give them more money. Unfair? Maybe, thats life. But price money in tournaments is not related to how good people are, but to how much money sponsors want to spend on it. And that is only partially related to displayed skill levels.
You're optimistic if you think that WCS America is basically Code A if there are no Koreans. It's basically people who could never make it to Code A ever and Scarlett who would win every season
On August 14 2013 18:52 DarkLordOlli wrote: You're optimistic if you think that WCS America is basically Code A if there are no Koreans. It's basically people who could never make it to Code A ever and Scarlett who would win every season
What about Jim/MacSed/Sen? Would you really rate Scarlett above all of them constantly?
On August 14 2013 16:40 Shellshock1122 wrote: Oz and aLive are about on the same level as finale and he just won EU
EU is very match up dependant. PvT from Europe would give headache to lots of good players from Korea. That MVP dropped out wasn't a fluke, but Europe did show that their PvT is one of the best there is. Elfi beat TaeJa, MaNa and Socke beat countless Koreans. Its no fluke and has happened before.
Also PvP as Europe is fielding tons of good Protoss is also hard. Finale winning doesn't make him superior to anyone participating in the tournament. Especially because all his series were very close.
On August 14 2013 18:52 DarkLordOlli wrote: You're optimistic if you think that WCS America is basically Code A if there are no Koreans. It's basically people who could never make it to Code A ever and Scarlett who would win every season
What about Jim/MacSed/Sen? Would you really rate Scarlett above all of them constantly?
You'd have to have a really liberal interpretation of "America" if they could still participate in a region locked system. If they could participate then no, I'd say all three of them have a good shot. If it's only America like last year then Scarlett would win every season
On August 14 2013 18:52 DarkLordOlli wrote: You're optimistic if you think that WCS America is basically Code A if there are no Koreans. It's basically people who could never make it to Code A ever and Scarlett who would win every season
What about Jim/MacSed/Sen? Would you really rate Scarlett above all of them constantly?
You'd have to have a really liberal interpretation of "America" if they could still participate in a region locked system. If they could participate then no, I'd say all three of them have a good shot. If it's only America like last year then Scarlett would win every season
Would also be a great global finals if America was to send 5 players... imagine the outcry at the global finals when we have lots of series that are more onesided than ever. No one wants to see it.
On August 14 2013 18:52 DarkLordOlli wrote: You're optimistic if you think that WCS America is basically Code A if there are no Koreans. It's basically people who could never make it to Code A ever and Scarlett who would win every season
What about Jim/MacSed/Sen? Would you really rate Scarlett above all of them constantly?
You'd have to have a really liberal interpretation of "America" if they could still participate in a region locked system. If they could participate then no, I'd say all three of them have a good shot. If it's only America like last year then Scarlett would win every season
Would also be a great global finals if America was to send 5 players... imagine the outcry at the global finals when we have lots of series that are more onesided than ever. No one wants to see it.
Yes, exactly. That's the exact argument I keep making every single time someone brings up region lock. As long as Blizzard wants the WCS Global Finals to be like a Masters in Tennis for example where only the absolute best players of the season can compete, it cannot and will never happen. Every GSL or OSL would have a stronger lineup than the Global Finals and that just... doesn't make sense. And it'd look exactly like last year. Korea sends players, they dominate the tournament and eventually run into each other. Maybe you get one or two upsets like Idra going wild and taking out Roro or HerO throwing his games against Sen but other than that it'd be pure Korean domination. This way at least it won't be onesided and the quality of the Global Finals is actually good.
I mean... HerO vs State today. State is one of the better NA players, he made the finals of Shoutcraft America right? Well, HerO made it look like he accidentally won.
On August 14 2013 18:52 DarkLordOlli wrote: You're optimistic if you think that WCS America is basically Code A if there are no Koreans. It's basically people who could never make it to Code A ever and Scarlett who would win every season
What about Jim/MacSed/Sen? Would you really rate Scarlett above all of them constantly?
You'd have to have a really liberal interpretation of "America" if they could still participate in a region locked system. If they could participate then no, I'd say all three of them have a good shot. If it's only America like last year then Scarlett would win every season
It would be beyond obvious that people not from Korea, America or Europe can also participate in the WCS. Then you can either just add them to one (for example Africa to Europe), or you leave them free to choose. Lets say the Chinese scene then becomes so back it dominates WCS AM, then you can always add a WCS China.
As long as Blizzard wants the Global Finals to be the tournament where the best of the best meet, this can and will never happen. It's not about Blizzard messing up their system. They know exactly what they want and considering the lineup these two Global Finals had, I'd say they're doing a damn good job of achieving their goal.
Whether their goal is something the community wants as well is a different question.
On August 14 2013 18:52 DarkLordOlli wrote: You're optimistic if you think that WCS America is basically Code A if there are no Koreans. It's basically people who could never make it to Code A ever and Scarlett who would win every season
What about Jim/MacSed/Sen? Would you really rate Scarlett above all of them constantly?
You'd have to have a really liberal interpretation of "America" if they could still participate in a region locked system. If they could participate then no, I'd say all three of them have a good shot. If it's only America like last year then Scarlett would win every season
It would be beyond obvious that people not from Korea, America or Europe can also participate in the WCS. Then you can either just add them to one (for example Africa to Europe), or you leave them free to choose. Lets say the Chinese scene then becomes so back it dominates WCS AM, then you can always add a WCS China.
You want WCG - Blizzard wants a masters tournament. Best of the best. Not gathering of all nations.
On August 14 2013 18:52 DarkLordOlli wrote: You're optimistic if you think that WCS America is basically Code A if there are no Koreans. It's basically people who could never make it to Code A ever and Scarlett who would win every season
What about Jim/MacSed/Sen? Would you really rate Scarlett above all of them constantly?
You'd have to have a really liberal interpretation of "America" if they could still participate in a region locked system. If they could participate then no, I'd say all three of them have a good shot. If it's only America like last year then Scarlett would win every season
It would be beyond obvious that people not from Korea, America or Europe can also participate in the WCS. Then you can either just add them to one (for example Africa to Europe), or you leave them free to choose. Lets say the Chinese scene then becomes so back it dominates WCS AM, then you can always add a WCS China.
You want WCG - Blizzard wants a masters tournament. Best of the best. Not gathering of all nations.
Blizzard wants to make money, they don't do that by making WCS AM pretty much code A in another timezone. If they just wanted the best they might as well have only done WCS KR and leave EU and AM out of it.
On August 14 2013 18:52 DarkLordOlli wrote: You're optimistic if you think that WCS America is basically Code A if there are no Koreans. It's basically people who could never make it to Code A ever and Scarlett who would win every season
What about Jim/MacSed/Sen? Would you really rate Scarlett above all of them constantly?
You'd have to have a really liberal interpretation of "America" if they could still participate in a region locked system. If they could participate then no, I'd say all three of them have a good shot. If it's only America like last year then Scarlett would win every season
It would be beyond obvious that people not from Korea, America or Europe can also participate in the WCS. Then you can either just add them to one (for example Africa to Europe), or you leave them free to choose. Lets say the Chinese scene then becomes so back it dominates WCS AM, then you can always add a WCS China.
You want WCG - Blizzard wants a masters tournament. Best of the best. Not gathering of all nations.
Blizzard wants to make money, they don't do that by making WCS AM pretty much code A in another timezone. If they just wanted the best they might as well have only done WCS KR and leave EU and AM out of it.
Well I can definitely guarantee you WCS is doing a lot better than WCG, even though the later runs tournaments for more than one game.
It's funny how every thread about WCS nowadays ends up in a lock vs. no-lock debate... While this is a legitimately WCS AM thread, this really does spread into almost everyting WCS related. And that is possibly a problem, because if all the cries from americans make Blizzard do a region lock for 2014, most of us in EU are gonna hate you guys so hard! You don't really hear a lot of demands to region lock EU, do you? Because it is fucking amazing to see the EU players go toe to toe, time and time again against Koreans - and while admitedly not the best ones at the moment, they are quite the legend.
But I find it hard to imagine that Blizzard locks AM and doesn't lock EU. Do we really want to destroy a successfull and popular tournament (80 thousand viewers, or what) just to help America to have their own code B level tournament league labeled WCS?
On August 14 2013 18:52 DarkLordOlli wrote: You're optimistic if you think that WCS America is basically Code A if there are no Koreans. It's basically people who could never make it to Code A ever and Scarlett who would win every season
What about Jim/MacSed/Sen? Would you really rate Scarlett above all of them constantly?
You'd have to have a really liberal interpretation of "America" if they could still participate in a region locked system. If they could participate then no, I'd say all three of them have a good shot. If it's only America like last year then Scarlett would win every season
Would also be a great global finals if America was to send 5 players... imagine the outcry at the global finals when we have lots of series that are more onesided than ever. No one wants to see it.
On August 14 2013 18:52 DarkLordOlli wrote: You're optimistic if you think that WCS America is basically Code A if there are no Koreans. It's basically people who could never make it to Code A ever and Scarlett who would win every season
What about Jim/MacSed/Sen? Would you really rate Scarlett above all of them constantly?
You'd have to have a really liberal interpretation of "America" if they could still participate in a region locked system. If they could participate then no, I'd say all three of them have a good shot. If it's only America like last year then Scarlett would win every season
Would also be a great global finals if America was to send 5 players... imagine the outcry at the global finals when we have lots of series that are more onesided than ever. No one wants to see it.
On August 14 2013 19:43 opisska wrote: It's funny how every thread about WCS nowadays ends up in a lock vs. no-lock debate... While this is a legitimately WCS AM thread, this really does spread into almost everyting WCS related. And that is possibly a problem, because if all the cries from americans make Blizzard do a region lock for 2014, most of us in EU are gonna hate you guys so hard! You don't really hear a lot of demands to region lock EU, do you? Because it is fucking amazing to see the EU players go toe to toe, time and time again against Koreans - and while admitedly not the best ones at the moment, they are quite the legend.
But I find it hard to imagine that Blizzard locks AM and doesn't lock EU. Do we really want to destroy a successfull and popular tournament (80 thousand viewers, or what) just to help America to have their own code B level tournament league labeled WCS?
Yes. We want that lock. I want the WCS EU with 140k viewers and 0 koreans back.
On August 14 2013 18:52 DarkLordOlli wrote: You're optimistic if you think that WCS America is basically Code A if there are no Koreans. It's basically people who could never make it to Code A ever and Scarlett who would win every season
What about Jim/MacSed/Sen? Would you really rate Scarlett above all of them constantly?
You'd have to have a really liberal interpretation of "America" if they could still participate in a region locked system. If they could participate then no, I'd say all three of them have a good shot. If it's only America like last year then Scarlett would win every season
Would also be a great global finals if America was to send 5 players... imagine the outcry at the global finals when we have lots of series that are more onesided than ever. No one wants to see it.
I want to see it.
Watch WCG. Have fun!
Who is participating in that tournament? Liquidpedia states nothing.
On August 14 2013 18:52 DarkLordOlli wrote: You're optimistic if you think that WCS America is basically Code A if there are no Koreans. It's basically people who could never make it to Code A ever and Scarlett who would win every season
What about Jim/MacSed/Sen? Would you really rate Scarlett above all of them constantly?
You'd have to have a really liberal interpretation of "America" if they could still participate in a region locked system. If they could participate then no, I'd say all three of them have a good shot. If it's only America like last year then Scarlett would win every season
Would also be a great global finals if America was to send 5 players... imagine the outcry at the global finals when we have lots of series that are more onesided than ever. No one wants to see it.
I want to see it.
Watch WCG. Have fun!
Who is participating in that tournament? Liquidpedia states nothing.
Top 1 / 2 / 3 (depending on country) best of the country. The qualifiers are currently taking place.
On August 14 2013 18:52 DarkLordOlli wrote: You're optimistic if you think that WCS America is basically Code A if there are no Koreans. It's basically people who could never make it to Code A ever and Scarlett who would win every season
What about Jim/MacSed/Sen? Would you really rate Scarlett above all of them constantly?
You'd have to have a really liberal interpretation of "America" if they could still participate in a region locked system. If they could participate then no, I'd say all three of them have a good shot. If it's only America like last year then Scarlett would win every season
Would also be a great global finals if America was to send 5 players... imagine the outcry at the global finals when we have lots of series that are more onesided than ever. No one wants to see it.
I want to see it.
Watch WCG. Have fun!
Who is participating in that tournament? Liquidpedia states nothing.
Top 1 / 2 / 3 (depending on country) best of the country. The qualifiers are currently taking place.
On August 14 2013 18:52 DarkLordOlli wrote: You're optimistic if you think that WCS America is basically Code A if there are no Koreans. It's basically people who could never make it to Code A ever and Scarlett who would win every season
What about Jim/MacSed/Sen? Would you really rate Scarlett above all of them constantly?
You'd have to have a really liberal interpretation of "America" if they could still participate in a region locked system. If they could participate then no, I'd say all three of them have a good shot. If it's only America like last year then Scarlett would win every season
Would also be a great global finals if America was to send 5 players... imagine the outcry at the global finals when we have lots of series that are more onesided than ever. No one wants to see it.
I want to see it.
Watch WCG. Have fun!
Who is participating in that tournament? Liquidpedia states nothing.
Top 1 / 2 / 3 (depending on country) best of the country. The qualifiers are currently taking place.
On August 14 2013 18:52 DarkLordOlli wrote: You're optimistic if you think that WCS America is basically Code A if there are no Koreans. It's basically people who could never make it to Code A ever and Scarlett who would win every season
What about Jim/MacSed/Sen? Would you really rate Scarlett above all of them constantly?
You'd have to have a really liberal interpretation of "America" if they could still participate in a region locked system. If they could participate then no, I'd say all three of them have a good shot. If it's only America like last year then Scarlett would win every season
Would also be a great global finals if America was to send 5 players... imagine the outcry at the global finals when we have lots of series that are more onesided than ever. No one wants to see it.
I want to see it.
Watch WCG. Have fun!
Who is participating in that tournament? Liquidpedia states nothing.
Top 1 / 2 / 3 (depending on country) best of the country. The qualifiers are currently taking place.
Very few players listed there. No explanations why certain players were chosen and where is Sweden? Norway? Any Nordic country? Seems to be a lot missing here.. (Turkey??? Japan?)
On August 14 2013 19:43 opisska wrote: It's funny how every thread about WCS nowadays ends up in a lock vs. no-lock debate... While this is a legitimately WCS AM thread, this really does spread into almost everyting WCS related. And that is possibly a problem, because if all the cries from americans make Blizzard do a region lock for 2014, most of us in EU are gonna hate you guys so hard! You don't really hear a lot of demands to region lock EU, do you? Because it is fucking amazing to see the EU players go toe to toe, time and time again against Koreans - and while admitedly not the best ones at the moment, they are quite the legend.
But I find it hard to imagine that Blizzard locks AM and doesn't lock EU. Do we really want to destroy a successfull and popular tournament (80 thousand viewers, or what) just to help America to have their own code B level tournament league labeled WCS?
Yes. We want that lock. I want the WCS EU with 140k viewers and 0 koreans back.
The one with 140k viewers was the one with Stephano vs Mvp bub.
On August 14 2013 18:56 MasterOfPuppets wrote: [quote]
What about Jim/MacSed/Sen? Would you really rate Scarlett above all of them constantly?
You'd have to have a really liberal interpretation of "America" if they could still participate in a region locked system. If they could participate then no, I'd say all three of them have a good shot. If it's only America like last year then Scarlett would win every season
Would also be a great global finals if America was to send 5 players... imagine the outcry at the global finals when we have lots of series that are more onesided than ever. No one wants to see it.
I want to see it.
Watch WCG. Have fun!
Who is participating in that tournament? Liquidpedia states nothing.
Top 1 / 2 / 3 (depending on country) best of the country. The qualifiers are currently taking place.
Very few players listed there. No explanations why certain players were chosen and where is Sweden? Norway? Any Nordic country? Seems to be a lot missing here.. (Turkey??? Japan?)
Because WCG has become a joke in recent years... nobody cares about it. That's exactly the point we were making against region locking.
On August 14 2013 19:43 opisska wrote: It's funny how every thread about WCS nowadays ends up in a lock vs. no-lock debate... While this is a legitimately WCS AM thread, this really does spread into almost everyting WCS related. And that is possibly a problem, because if all the cries from americans make Blizzard do a region lock for 2014, most of us in EU are gonna hate you guys so hard! You don't really hear a lot of demands to region lock EU, do you? Because it is fucking amazing to see the EU players go toe to toe, time and time again against Koreans - and while admitedly not the best ones at the moment, they are quite the legend.
But I find it hard to imagine that Blizzard locks AM and doesn't lock EU. Do we really want to destroy a successfull and popular tournament (80 thousand viewers, or what) just to help America to have their own code B level tournament league labeled WCS?
Yes. We want that lock. I want the WCS EU with 140k viewers and 0 koreans back.
The one with 140k viewers was the one with Stephano vs Mvp bub.
On August 14 2013 19:43 opisska wrote: It's funny how every thread about WCS nowadays ends up in a lock vs. no-lock debate... While this is a legitimately WCS AM thread, this really does spread into almost everyting WCS related. And that is possibly a problem, because if all the cries from americans make Blizzard do a region lock for 2014, most of us in EU are gonna hate you guys so hard! You don't really hear a lot of demands to region lock EU, do you? Because it is fucking amazing to see the EU players go toe to toe, time and time again against Koreans - and while admitedly not the best ones at the moment, they are quite the legend.
But I find it hard to imagine that Blizzard locks AM and doesn't lock EU. Do we really want to destroy a successfull and popular tournament (80 thousand viewers, or what) just to help America to have their own code B level tournament league labeled WCS?
Yes. We want that lock. I want the WCS EU with 140k viewers and 0 koreans back.
The one with 140k viewers was the one with Stephano vs Mvp bub.
No, it was the WCS 2012 EU Finals.
That one had within 110k (102 if I recall correctly) for Vortix vs Stephano. Which is still impressive but not quite the same.
On August 14 2013 19:43 opisska wrote: It's funny how every thread about WCS nowadays ends up in a lock vs. no-lock debate... While this is a legitimately WCS AM thread, this really does spread into almost everyting WCS related. And that is possibly a problem, because if all the cries from americans make Blizzard do a region lock for 2014, most of us in EU are gonna hate you guys so hard! You don't really hear a lot of demands to region lock EU, do you? Because it is fucking amazing to see the EU players go toe to toe, time and time again against Koreans - and while admitedly not the best ones at the moment, they are quite the legend.
But I find it hard to imagine that Blizzard locks AM and doesn't lock EU. Do we really want to destroy a successfull and popular tournament (80 thousand viewers, or what) just to help America to have their own code B level tournament league labeled WCS?
Yes. We want that lock. I want the WCS EU with 140k viewers and 0 koreans back.
The one with 140k viewers was the one with Stephano vs Mvp bub.
No, it was the WCS 2012 EU Finals.
You mean that ZvZ between Vortix and Stephano? Not a second i shall believe 140k people would watch ZvZ.
On August 14 2013 19:43 opisska wrote: It's funny how every thread about WCS nowadays ends up in a lock vs. no-lock debate... While this is a legitimately WCS AM thread, this really does spread into almost everyting WCS related. And that is possibly a problem, because if all the cries from americans make Blizzard do a region lock for 2014, most of us in EU are gonna hate you guys so hard! You don't really hear a lot of demands to region lock EU, do you? Because it is fucking amazing to see the EU players go toe to toe, time and time again against Koreans - and while admitedly not the best ones at the moment, they are quite the legend.
But I find it hard to imagine that Blizzard locks AM and doesn't lock EU. Do we really want to destroy a successfull and popular tournament (80 thousand viewers, or what) just to help America to have their own code B level tournament league labeled WCS?
Yes. We want that lock. I want the WCS EU with 140k viewers and 0 koreans back.
The one with 140k viewers was the one with Stephano vs Mvp bub.
No, it was the WCS 2012 EU Finals.
That one had within 110k (102 if I recall correctly) for Vortix vs Stephano. Which is still impressive but not quite the same.
If either of you can link some statistics I'll believe you more than my own memory.
On August 14 2013 19:43 opisska wrote: It's funny how every thread about WCS nowadays ends up in a lock vs. no-lock debate... While this is a legitimately WCS AM thread, this really does spread into almost everyting WCS related. And that is possibly a problem, because if all the cries from americans make Blizzard do a region lock for 2014, most of us in EU are gonna hate you guys so hard! You don't really hear a lot of demands to region lock EU, do you? Because it is fucking amazing to see the EU players go toe to toe, time and time again against Koreans - and while admitedly not the best ones at the moment, they are quite the legend.
But I find it hard to imagine that Blizzard locks AM and doesn't lock EU. Do we really want to destroy a successfull and popular tournament (80 thousand viewers, or what) just to help America to have their own code B level tournament league labeled WCS?
Yes. We want that lock. I want the WCS EU with 140k viewers and 0 koreans back.
The one with 140k viewers was the one with Stephano vs Mvp bub.
No, it was the WCS 2012 EU Finals.
That one had within 110k (102 if I recall correctly) for Vortix vs Stephano. Which is still impressive but not quite the same.
If either of you can link some statistics I'll believe you more than my own memory.
I'm pretty sure it wasn't 140k, but I'll see if I can dig something out.
On another important note, the final of WCS Europe Finals was the first Starcraft 2 game, outside Korea to reach the 100,000 viewers, and funny enough was in a ZvZ, a matchup that many consider not that great to watch.
On August 14 2013 19:00 DarkLordOlli wrote: [quote]
You'd have to have a really liberal interpretation of "America" if they could still participate in a region locked system. If they could participate then no, I'd say all three of them have a good shot. If it's only America like last year then Scarlett would win every season
Would also be a great global finals if America was to send 5 players... imagine the outcry at the global finals when we have lots of series that are more onesided than ever. No one wants to see it.
I want to see it.
Watch WCG. Have fun!
Who is participating in that tournament? Liquidpedia states nothing.
Top 1 / 2 / 3 (depending on country) best of the country. The qualifiers are currently taking place.
Very few players listed there. No explanations why certain players were chosen and where is Sweden? Norway? Any Nordic country? Seems to be a lot missing here.. (Turkey??? Japan?)
Because WCG has become a joke in recent years... nobody cares about it. That's exactly the point we were making against region locking.
I can also point you to enough tournaments without region lock which aren't exactly big.
On August 14 2013 19:43 opisska wrote: It's funny how every thread about WCS nowadays ends up in a lock vs. no-lock debate... While this is a legitimately WCS AM thread, this really does spread into almost everyting WCS related. And that is possibly a problem, because if all the cries from americans make Blizzard do a region lock for 2014, most of us in EU are gonna hate you guys so hard! You don't really hear a lot of demands to region lock EU, do you? Because it is fucking amazing to see the EU players go toe to toe, time and time again against Koreans - and while admitedly not the best ones at the moment, they are quite the legend.
But I find it hard to imagine that Blizzard locks AM and doesn't lock EU. Do we really want to destroy a successfull and popular tournament (80 thousand viewers, or what) just to help America to have their own code B level tournament league labeled WCS?
Yes. We want that lock. I want the WCS EU with 140k viewers and 0 koreans back.
The one with 140k viewers was the one with Stephano vs Mvp bub.
No, it was the WCS 2012 EU Finals.
That one had within 110k (102 if I recall correctly) for Vortix vs Stephano. Which is still impressive but not quite the same.
If either of you can link some statistics I'll believe you more than my own memory.
I'm pretty sure it wasn't 140k, but I'll see if I can dig something out.
On another important note, the final of WCS Europe Finals was the first Starcraft 2 game, outside Korea to reach the 100,000 viewers, and funny enough was in a ZvZ, a matchup that many consider not that great to watch.
On August 14 2013 19:43 opisska wrote: It's funny how every thread about WCS nowadays ends up in a lock vs. no-lock debate... While this is a legitimately WCS AM thread, this really does spread into almost everyting WCS related. And that is possibly a problem, because if all the cries from americans make Blizzard do a region lock for 2014, most of us in EU are gonna hate you guys so hard! You don't really hear a lot of demands to region lock EU, do you? Because it is fucking amazing to see the EU players go toe to toe, time and time again against Koreans - and while admitedly not the best ones at the moment, they are quite the legend.
But I find it hard to imagine that Blizzard locks AM and doesn't lock EU. Do we really want to destroy a successfull and popular tournament (80 thousand viewers, or what) just to help America to have their own code B level tournament league labeled WCS?
Yes. We want that lock. I want the WCS EU with 140k viewers and 0 koreans back.
The one with 140k viewers was the one with Stephano vs Mvp bub.
No, it was the WCS 2012 EU Finals.
That one had within 110k (102 if I recall correctly) for Vortix vs Stephano. Which is still impressive but not quite the same.
If either of you can link some statistics I'll believe you more than my own memory.
I'm pretty sure it wasn't 140k, but I'll see if I can dig something out.
On another important note, the final of WCS Europe Finals was the first Starcraft 2 game, outside Korea to reach the 100,000 viewers, and funny enough was in a ZvZ, a matchup that many consider not that great to watch.
Would also be a great global finals if America was to send 5 players... imagine the outcry at the global finals when we have lots of series that are more onesided than ever. No one wants to see it.
I want to see it.
Watch WCG. Have fun!
Who is participating in that tournament? Liquidpedia states nothing.
Top 1 / 2 / 3 (depending on country) best of the country. The qualifiers are currently taking place.
Very few players listed there. No explanations why certain players were chosen and where is Sweden? Norway? Any Nordic country? Seems to be a lot missing here.. (Turkey??? Japan?)
Because WCG has become a joke in recent years... nobody cares about it. That's exactly the point we were making against region locking.
I can also point you to enough tournaments without region lock which aren't exactly big.
But can you point to a gaming tournament with region lock that manages to do as well as WCS has?
Very few players listed there. No explanations why certain players were chosen and where is Sweden? Norway? Any Nordic country? Seems to be a lot missing here.. (Turkey??? Japan?)
Because WCG has become a joke in recent years... nobody cares about it. That's exactly the point we were making against region locking.
I can also point you to enough tournaments without region lock which aren't exactly big.
But can you point to a gaming tournament with region lock that manages to do as well as WCS has?
Even tho you were right about the numbers (also found the teamliquid thread) I'll still point you to WCS Europe 2012. I had the highest numbers 2012 and it was region locked. There is no telling what numbers it would have 2013 if it was aired as all viewer numbers seems higher this year. Either way I'd say that tournament constitutes as proof and a good business case that tournaments with region locks (and therefore without the top players in the world) can be a huge success.
I'm not in favor of region locking but am in favor of putting in a system that makes sure 1-2 Americans, 1-2 from China, and 3-4 from Europe are in the final event. Not sure if you do a separate mini wildcard tournament with only people from their region but you need to foster the opportunities.
Think about basketball around the world. When the US was dominating in the early 90s the Olympics didn't just give up on the sport. The US is still dominant but the rest of the world has caught up because events like the Olympics, and leagues around the world. I know it isn't a perfect comparison but the point is that if you don't give players hope/opportunity than you won't foster new talent.
Players like Gowser, Scarlet, Huk are certainly good enough to show competetive games, and win series. It would help viewership too.
Very few players listed there. No explanations why certain players were chosen and where is Sweden? Norway? Any Nordic country? Seems to be a lot missing here.. (Turkey??? Japan?)
Because WCG has become a joke in recent years... nobody cares about it. That's exactly the point we were making against region locking.
I can also point you to enough tournaments without region lock which aren't exactly big.
But can you point to a gaming tournament with region lock that manages to do as well as WCS has?
Even tho you were right about the numbers (also found the teamliquid thread) I'll still point you to WCS Europe 2012. I had the highest numbers 2012 and it was region locked. There is no telling what numbers it would have 2013 if it was aired as all viewer numbers seems higher this year. Either way I'd say that tournament constitutes as proof and a good business case that tournaments with region locks (and therefore without the top players in the world) can be a huge success.
It was the WCS grand final that hit those numbers, with Koreans in it. If you want to judge, you would need to judge on the qualifiers from France, Spain, Germany etc and I can guarantee, those qualifiers didn't hit what WCS hits.
Very few players listed there. No explanations why certain players were chosen and where is Sweden? Norway? Any Nordic country? Seems to be a lot missing here.. (Turkey??? Japan?)
Because WCG has become a joke in recent years... nobody cares about it. That's exactly the point we were making against region locking.
I can also point you to enough tournaments without region lock which aren't exactly big.
But can you point to a gaming tournament with region lock that manages to do as well as WCS has?
Even tho you were right about the numbers (also found the teamliquid thread) I'll still point you to WCS Europe 2012. I had the highest numbers 2012 and it was region locked. There is no telling what numbers it would have 2013 if it was aired as all viewer numbers seems higher this year. Either way I'd say that tournament constitutes as proof and a good business case that tournaments with region locks (and therefore without the top players in the world) can be a huge success.
It's the highest stream numbers for 2012 that we are definitively aware of. Undoubtedly some of the Korean tournaments had more viewers since we only know English twitch.tv viewers and not Gomplayer, TV, Korean streams, etc. It's common knowledge that no foreign tournament has matched those numbers, even though we don't know the exact figures.
Yes it is possible to be successful, but that's not what WCS is meant to be.
What's the difference between the koreans dominating every foreigner at the global finals or them dominating every foreigner at the regionals? I don't really see why people advocate the latter while condemning the former.
Very few players listed there. No explanations why certain players were chosen and where is Sweden? Norway? Any Nordic country? Seems to be a lot missing here.. (Turkey??? Japan?)
Because WCG has become a joke in recent years... nobody cares about it. That's exactly the point we were making against region locking.
I can also point you to enough tournaments without region lock which aren't exactly big.
But can you point to a gaming tournament with region lock that manages to do as well as WCS has?
Very few players listed there. No explanations why certain players were chosen and where is Sweden? Norway? Any Nordic country? Seems to be a lot missing here.. (Turkey??? Japan?)
Because WCG has become a joke in recent years... nobody cares about it. That's exactly the point we were making against region locking.
I can also point you to enough tournaments without region lock which aren't exactly big.
But can you point to a gaming tournament with region lock that manages to do as well as WCS has?
Very few players listed there. No explanations why certain players were chosen and where is Sweden? Norway? Any Nordic country? Seems to be a lot missing here.. (Turkey??? Japan?)
Because WCG has become a joke in recent years... nobody cares about it. That's exactly the point we were making against region locking.
I can also point you to enough tournaments without region lock which aren't exactly big.
But can you point to a gaming tournament with region lock that manages to do as well as WCS has?
Even tho you were right about the numbers (also found the teamliquid thread) I'll still point you to WCS Europe 2012. I had the highest numbers 2012 and it was region locked. There is no telling what numbers it would have 2013 if it was aired as all viewer numbers seems higher this year. Either way I'd say that tournament constitutes as proof and a good business case that tournaments with region locks (and therefore without the top players in the world) can be a huge success.
It was the WCS grand final that hit those numbers, with Koreans in it. If you want to judge, you would need to judge on the qualifiers from France, Spain, Germany etc and I can guarantee, those qualifiers didn't hit what WCS hits.
No it was EU that hit those numbers. The grand finals was a flop.
Very few players listed there. No explanations why certain players were chosen and where is Sweden? Norway? Any Nordic country? Seems to be a lot missing here.. (Turkey??? Japan?)
Because WCG has become a joke in recent years... nobody cares about it. That's exactly the point we were making against region locking.
I can also point you to enough tournaments without region lock which aren't exactly big.
But can you point to a gaming tournament with region lock that manages to do as well as WCS has?
LCS
See, iNcontroL brought up a fantastic point last night on ITG. People like to point at LoL's viewer numbers and go "urgh see that? sc2 ded". But what they don't actually realize is that they're looking at a game that has what, 10-20 times the playerbase? Maybe even more? I'm sure someone can do the math if they so desire, but a rough estimate will do. When you take this fact into account, it makes the discrepancy seem a lot smaller.
Now I haven't seen any estimates on LCS' viewership, or maybe Riot releases exact numbers, I don't know, but I highly doubt that their regional finals pull in anywhere near 10-20 times the viewership that WCS did.
Very few players listed there. No explanations why certain players were chosen and where is Sweden? Norway? Any Nordic country? Seems to be a lot missing here.. (Turkey??? Japan?)
Because WCG has become a joke in recent years... nobody cares about it. That's exactly the point we were making against region locking.
I can also point you to enough tournaments without region lock which aren't exactly big.
But can you point to a gaming tournament with region lock that manages to do as well as WCS has?
LCS
See, iNcontroL brought up a fantastic point last night on ITG. People like to point at LoL's viewer numbers and go "urgh see that? sc2 ded". But what they don't actually realize is that they're looking at a game that has what, 10-20 times the playerbase? Maybe even more? I'm sure someone can do the math if they so desire, but a rough estimate will do. When you take this fact into account, it makes the discrepancy seem a lot smaller.
Now I haven't seen any estimates on LCS' viewership, or maybe Riot releases exact numbers, I don't know, but I highly doubt that their regional finals pull in anywhere near 10-20 times the viewership that WCS did.
You also can't really draw a direct correlation between playerbase and viewership. Expecting 10-20 times the numbers is unfair
Very few players listed there. No explanations why certain players were chosen and where is Sweden? Norway? Any Nordic country? Seems to be a lot missing here.. (Turkey??? Japan?)
Because WCG has become a joke in recent years... nobody cares about it. That's exactly the point we were making against region locking.
I can also point you to enough tournaments without region lock which aren't exactly big.
But can you point to a gaming tournament with region lock that manages to do as well as WCS has?
LCS
See, iNcontroL brought up a fantastic point last night on ITG. People like to point at LoL's viewer numbers and go "urgh see that? sc2 ded". But what they don't actually realize is that they're looking at a game that has what, 10-20 times the playerbase? Maybe even more? I'm sure someone can do the math if they so desire, but a rough estimate will do. When you take this fact into account, it makes the discrepancy seem a lot smaller.
Now I haven't seen any estimates on LCS' viewership, or maybe Riot releases exact numbers, I don't know, but I highly doubt that their regional finals pull in anywhere near 10-20 times the viewership that WCS did.
You also can't really draw a direct correlation between playerbase and viewership. Expecting 10-20 times the numbers is unfair
On August 14 2013 20:59 rearee wrote: What's the difference between the koreans dominating every foreigner at the global finals or them dominating every foreigner at the regionals? I don't really see why people advocate the latter while condemning the former.
I want to see who is the best player in Europe tho. If you want to have an explanation for that you will have to dig into sports psychology. It's easier to root for your hometown team than someone on the other side of the earth (literally).
If I wanna know who's the best korean I'll watch GSL or the world finals and get the answer. I do not understand why there is a need for more tournaments than those two to determine who's the best korean.
Now here's the counter question. Why do you have something against a European tournament with just europeans? Or American tournament with just americans? You can watch GSL and the world finals to see your koreans at any time while the rest of us watch our regional tournaments. (If we just had any)
On August 14 2013 20:59 rearee wrote: What's the difference between the koreans dominating every foreigner at the global finals or them dominating every foreigner at the regionals? I don't really see why people advocate the latter while condemning the former.
I want to see who is the best player in Europe tho. If you want to have an explanation for that you will have to dig into sports psychology. It's easier to root for your hometown team than someone on the other side of the earth (literally).
If I wanna know who's the best korean I'll watch GSL or the world finals and get the answer. I do not understand why there is a need for more tournaments than those two to determine who's the best korean.
Now here's the counter question. Why do you have something against a European tournament with just europeans? Or American tournament with just americans? You can watch GSL and the world finals to see your koreans at any time while the rest of us watch our regional tournaments. (If we just had any)
Very few players listed there. No explanations why certain players were chosen and where is Sweden? Norway? Any Nordic country? Seems to be a lot missing here.. (Turkey??? Japan?)
Because WCG has become a joke in recent years... nobody cares about it. That's exactly the point we were making against region locking.
I can also point you to enough tournaments without region lock which aren't exactly big.
But can you point to a gaming tournament with region lock that manages to do as well as WCS has?
LCS
See, iNcontroL brought up a fantastic point last night on ITG. People like to point at LoL's viewer numbers and go "urgh see that? sc2 ded". But what they don't actually realize is that they're looking at a game that has what, 10-20 times the playerbase? Maybe even more? I'm sure someone can do the math if they so desire, but a rough estimate will do. When you take this fact into account, it makes the discrepancy seem a lot smaller.
Now I haven't seen any estimates on LCS' viewership, or maybe Riot releases exact numbers, I don't know, but I highly doubt that their regional finals pull in anywhere near 10-20 times the viewership that WCS did.
You also can't really draw a direct correlation between playerbase and viewership. Expecting 10-20 times the numbers is unfair
And why exactly is that?
WoW has a bigger playerbase than LoL and has a smaller viewership
Very few players listed there. No explanations why certain players were chosen and where is Sweden? Norway? Any Nordic country? Seems to be a lot missing here.. (Turkey??? Japan?)
Because WCG has become a joke in recent years... nobody cares about it. That's exactly the point we were making against region locking.
I can also point you to enough tournaments without region lock which aren't exactly big.
But can you point to a gaming tournament with region lock that manages to do as well as WCS has?
LCS
See, iNcontroL brought up a fantastic point last night on ITG. People like to point at LoL's viewer numbers and go "urgh see that? sc2 ded". But what they don't actually realize is that they're looking at a game that has what, 10-20 times the playerbase? Maybe even more? I'm sure someone can do the math if they so desire, but a rough estimate will do. When you take this fact into account, it makes the discrepancy seem a lot smaller.
Now I haven't seen any estimates on LCS' viewership, or maybe Riot releases exact numbers, I don't know, but I highly doubt that their regional finals pull in anywhere near 10-20 times the viewership that WCS did.
Here you have both Riots record and Valves TI3 numbers.
Swedish channel 6 who send it on national tv should be added to this as well. Their 5th game of the finals holds the record of highest viewers number all time on their web (no idea what that means in term of numbers tho. Might be 10, might be 3 million. 9 Mil people could theoretically view it on that channel however and they beat american TV series like anger management).
I would say that these numbers beat SC2 with aprox the number correlating to numbers of players that differs.
Very few players listed there. No explanations why certain players were chosen and where is Sweden? Norway? Any Nordic country? Seems to be a lot missing here.. (Turkey??? Japan?)
Because WCG has become a joke in recent years... nobody cares about it. That's exactly the point we were making against region locking.
I can also point you to enough tournaments without region lock which aren't exactly big.
But can you point to a gaming tournament with region lock that manages to do as well as WCS has?
LCS
See, iNcontroL brought up a fantastic point last night on ITG. People like to point at LoL's viewer numbers and go "urgh see that? sc2 ded". But what they don't actually realize is that they're looking at a game that has what, 10-20 times the playerbase? Maybe even more? I'm sure someone can do the math if they so desire, but a rough estimate will do. When you take this fact into account, it makes the discrepancy seem a lot smaller.
Now I haven't seen any estimates on LCS' viewership, or maybe Riot releases exact numbers, I don't know, but I highly doubt that their regional finals pull in anywhere near 10-20 times the viewership that WCS did.
You also can't really draw a direct correlation between playerbase and viewership. Expecting 10-20 times the numbers is unfair
And why exactly is that?
Because Starcraft 2 attracts a much more hardcore audience, while LoL has a lot more casual players that don't even know their game is played competitively.
On August 14 2013 20:59 rearee wrote: What's the difference between the koreans dominating every foreigner at the global finals or them dominating every foreigner at the regionals? I don't really see why people advocate the latter while condemning the former.
I want to see who is the best player in Europe tho. If you want to have an explanation for that you will have to dig into sports psychology. It's easier to root for your hometown team than someone on the other side of the earth (literally).
If I wanna know who's the best korean I'll watch GSL or the world finals and get the answer. I do not understand why there is a need for more tournaments than those two to determine who's the best korean.
Now here's the counter question. Why do you have something against a European tournament with just europeans? Or American tournament with just americans? You can watch GSL and the world finals to see your koreans at any time while the rest of us watch our regional tournaments. (If we just had any)
I don't care about big numbers really. coming from a game where having 2500 people online meant a lot, i think having these numbers of people actually interested in sc2 means that we're really fine.
Yes it is possible to be successful, but that's not what WCS is meant to be.
Say what? WCS isn't ment to be successful? That explains A LOT.
WCS isn't meant to be another WCG
So what, exactly, is WCS ment to be? And what, exactly, is it ment to promote?
The Global Finals are meant to be what the Shanghai Masters is in Tennis.
I have no idea what that is. Don't really follow tennis and only know what grands slams and the olypics are in tennis. Never heard of any Shanghai Masters.
Yes it is possible to be successful, but that's not what WCS is meant to be.
Say what? WCS isn't ment to be successful? That explains A LOT.
WCS isn't meant to be another WCG
So what, exactly, is WCS ment to be? And what, exactly, is it ment to promote?
The Global Finals are meant to be what the Shanghai Masters is in Tennis.
I have no idea what that is. Don't really follow tennis and only know what grands slams and the olypics are in tennis. Never heard of any Shanghai Masters.
Ah sorry, not the Shanghai Masters. What I meant was the ATP World Tour Finals
Yes it is possible to be successful, but that's not what WCS is meant to be.
Say what? WCS isn't ment to be successful? That explains A LOT.
WCS isn't meant to be another WCG
So what, exactly, is WCS ment to be? And what, exactly, is it ment to promote?
It is meant to be GSL/OSL clone to be run at Europe and America.
With only koreans? Why? Again, what is it ment to promote that GSL isn't already promoting?
With only koreans? What? And remind me, what exactly GSL is promoting?
Can i answer your questions with counter questions too? How long can we go on only doing counter questions? Is it possible you will answer my questions with an answer one of these days? (To use the old kinder garden pharse: "I asked first. What exactly it's promoting? You can't answer that questions with asking me what it's promoting. I don't know what exactly WCS is promoting or I wouldn't ask.)
Yes it is possible to be successful, but that's not what WCS is meant to be.
Say what? WCS isn't ment to be successful? That explains A LOT.
WCS isn't meant to be another WCG
So what, exactly, is WCS ment to be? And what, exactly, is it ment to promote?
It is meant to be GSL/OSL clone to be run at Europe and America.
With only koreans? Why? Again, what is it ment to promote that GSL isn't already promoting?
With only koreans? What? And remind me, what exactly GSL is promoting?
Can i answer your questions with counter questions too? How long can we go on only doing counter questions? Is it possible you will answer my questions with an answer one of these days? (To use the old kinder garden pharse: "I asked first. What exactly it's promoting? You can't answer that questions with asking me what it's promoting. I don't know what exactly WCS is promoting or I wouldn't ask.)
(Edit: Too many spelling errors)
I claim it does not promote anything special (something, that GSL is not promoting, for instance), but then again i lack the knowledge and have no idea what GSL promotes (and what WCS meant to promote).
Anyone living in Korea can play in the GSL. It isn't region locked.
People forget that when Blizz decided to implement WCS, it screwed over Koreans. They limited the prize pool, removed prize money from lower tournaments and lower finishing positions, and limited the number of tournaments that Korea can run.
Yes it is possible to be successful, but that's not what WCS is meant to be.
Say what? WCS isn't ment to be successful? That explains A LOT.
WCS isn't meant to be another WCG
So what, exactly, is WCS ment to be? And what, exactly, is it ment to promote?
The Global Finals are meant to be what the Shanghai Masters is in Tennis.
I have no idea what that is. Don't really follow tennis and only know what grands slams and the olypics are in tennis. Never heard of any Shanghai Masters.
Ah sorry, not the Shanghai Masters. What I meant was the ATP World Tour Finals
TL;DR: it's the 8 best performing players of the entire season playing in one tournament.
Ah, that one I actually did know. Usually played in Dubai. Anyways, since tennis seems a favorite sport to compare to for some reason I'll try to answer you.
Tennis do not have the same challanges as Sc2. There is no 1 country that totally dominates the sport and there havn't been for decades (might have been in the early days I donno). There is a nice spread among the top players with every continent on the planet present (Asia is a bit low but 1 or 2 exists from there too in grand slams). Since the sport has been like this with a good spread for a long time there has been no reason for a ruling body over the sport to step in and take action. Interest is naturally spread around the would because all parts of the world have top players and top tournaments.
Here is another sport for you tho. Nordic cross country skiing. The sport is aproximately the same size as tennis (might be slightly bigger). One country is completely dominating it (Norway) and have been for a very long time. (This sport is actually a very good example to study because it's so simular to SC2 and korean dominance). What happened here however is that early on the international organisation with Norway in the front realized that this is not good for the sport on an international level. Even Norway who dominates it want the rest of the world to be interested and see their dominance. So a number of restrictions was created. Any country can only use 3 (I think) athlets at the world championship. On to of this the previous champions country has a free card (so Norway almost always can field 4). It might be 4 and 5 instead as numbers I can't remeber off hand but the principle stays the same. On top of this Norway has actively encouraged its trainers (not athlets) to go work for other countries and help them catch up. The sport is growing every year as a result and last World Championships hosted 74 countries.
Many other sports have a system simular to this as well. Now, what's so wrong with it?
On August 14 2013 21:59 lichter wrote: Anyone living in Korea can play in the GSL. It isn't region locked.
People forget that when Blizz decided to implement WCS, it screwed over Koreans. They limited the prize pool, removed prize money from lower tournaments and lower finishing positions, and limited the number of tournaments that Korea can run.
So no, WCS is not biased towards Koreans.
That's the definition of region lock. I have no problem with Polt playing in WCS NA when he lives in the US.
Yes it is possible to be successful, but that's not what WCS is meant to be.
Say what? WCS isn't ment to be successful? That explains A LOT.
WCS isn't meant to be another WCG
So what, exactly, is WCS ment to be? And what, exactly, is it ment to promote?
The Global Finals are meant to be what the Shanghai Masters is in Tennis.
I have no idea what that is. Don't really follow tennis and only know what grands slams and the olypics are in tennis. Never heard of any Shanghai Masters.
Ah sorry, not the Shanghai Masters. What I meant was the ATP World Tour Finals
TL;DR: it's the 8 best performing players of the entire season playing in one tournament.
Ah, that one I actually did know. Usually played in Dubai. Anyways, since tennis seems a favorite sport to compare to for some reason I'll try to answer you.
Tennis do not have the same challanges as Sc2. There is no 1 country that totally dominates the sport and there havn't been for decades (might have been in the early days I donno). There is a nice spread among the top players with every continent on the planet present (Asia is a bit low but 1 or 2 exists from there too in grand slams). Since the sport has been like this with a good spread for a long time there has been no reason for a ruling body over the sport to step in and take action. Interest is naturally spread around the would because all parts of the world have top players and top tournaments.
Here is another sport for you tho. Nordic cross country skiing. The sport is aproximately the same size as tennis (might be slightly bigger). One country is completely dominating it (Norway) and have been for a very long time. (This sport is actually a very good example to study because it's so simular to SC2 and korean dominance). What happened here however is that early on the international organisation with Norway in the front realized that this is not good for the sport on an international level. Even Norway who dominates it want the rest of the world to be interested and see their dominance. So a number of restrictions was created. Any country can only use 3 (I think) athlets at the world championship. On to of this the previous champions country has a free card (so Norway almost always can field 4). It might be 4 and 5 instead as numbers I can't remeber off hand but the principle stays the same. On top of this Norway has actively encouraged its trainers (not athlets) to go work for other countries and help them catch up. The sport is growing every year as a result and last World Championships hosted 74 countries.
Many other sports have a system simular to this as well. Now, what's so wrong with it?
Lemme guess: ALL world championships were won by Norwegians in rather dominating fashion? If not, then your example is bad one, because it still does not show a clear dominance of 1 country over rest.
Yes it is possible to be successful, but that's not what WCS is meant to be.
Say what? WCS isn't ment to be successful? That explains A LOT.
WCS isn't meant to be another WCG
So what, exactly, is WCS ment to be? And what, exactly, is it ment to promote?
It is meant to be GSL/OSL clone to be run at Europe and America.
With only koreans? Why? Again, what is it ment to promote that GSL isn't already promoting?
With only koreans? What? And remind me, what exactly GSL is promoting?
Can i answer your questions with counter questions too? How long can we go on only doing counter questions? Is it possible you will answer my questions with an answer one of these days? (To use the old kinder garden pharse: "I asked first. What exactly it's promoting? You can't answer that questions with asking me what it's promoting. I don't know what exactly WCS is promoting or I wouldn't ask.)
(Edit: Too many spelling errors)
I claim it does not promote anything special (something, that GSL is not promoting, for instance), but then again i lack the knowledge and have no idea what GSL promotes (and what WCS meant to promote).
Ah, that explains the questions. And leave my original question. What exactly is WCS ment to promote? Anyone else wanna jump in and try to answer?
I think you're misunderstanding the point. Blizzard doesn't want WCS to be a World Championship - that's what WCG is. Blizzard wants it to be a Masters Cup (now called ATP World Finals).
Also played in London btw. Before that they held it in Shanghai, that's why I got those two mixed up.
Nobody's comparing the sports SC2 and Tennis. The only thing being compared are the tournament systems. A Masters type tournament doesn't just exist in Tennis.
Yes it is possible to be successful, but that's not what WCS is meant to be.
Say what? WCS isn't ment to be successful? That explains A LOT.
WCS isn't meant to be another WCG
So what, exactly, is WCS ment to be? And what, exactly, is it ment to promote?
It is meant to be GSL/OSL clone to be run at Europe and America.
With only koreans? Why? Again, what is it ment to promote that GSL isn't already promoting?
With only koreans? What? And remind me, what exactly GSL is promoting?
Can i answer your questions with counter questions too? How long can we go on only doing counter questions? Is it possible you will answer my questions with an answer one of these days? (To use the old kinder garden pharse: "I asked first. What exactly it's promoting? You can't answer that questions with asking me what it's promoting. I don't know what exactly WCS is promoting or I wouldn't ask.)
(Edit: Too many spelling errors)
I claim it does not promote anything special (something, that GSL is not promoting, for instance), but then again i lack the knowledge and have no idea what GSL promotes (and what WCS meant to promote).
Ah, that explains the questions. And leave my original question. What exactly is WCS ment to promote? Anyone else wanna jump in and try to answer?
On August 14 2013 21:59 lichter wrote: Anyone living in Korea can play in the GSL. It isn't region locked.
People forget that when Blizz decided to implement WCS, it screwed over Koreans. They limited the prize pool, removed prize money from lower tournaments and lower finishing positions, and limited the number of tournaments that Korea can run.
So no, WCS is not biased towards Koreans.
That's the definition of region lock. I have no problem with Polt playing in WCS NA when he lives in the US.
Poorly worded. You don't have to live in Korea to play in GSL, you could technically fly in for every round. It's just an offline tournament, that's why it's necessary to live in Korea.
Say what? WCS isn't ment to be successful? That explains A LOT.
WCS isn't meant to be another WCG
So what, exactly, is WCS ment to be? And what, exactly, is it ment to promote?
It is meant to be GSL/OSL clone to be run at Europe and America.
With only koreans? Why? Again, what is it ment to promote that GSL isn't already promoting?
With only koreans? What? And remind me, what exactly GSL is promoting?
Can i answer your questions with counter questions too? How long can we go on only doing counter questions? Is it possible you will answer my questions with an answer one of these days? (To use the old kinder garden pharse: "I asked first. What exactly it's promoting? You can't answer that questions with asking me what it's promoting. I don't know what exactly WCS is promoting or I wouldn't ask.)
(Edit: Too many spelling errors)
I claim it does not promote anything special (something, that GSL is not promoting, for instance), but then again i lack the knowledge and have no idea what GSL promotes (and what WCS meant to promote).
Ah, that explains the questions. And leave my original question. What exactly is WCS ment to promote? Anyone else wanna jump in and try to answer?
So what, exactly, is WCS ment to be? And what, exactly, is it ment to promote?
It is meant to be GSL/OSL clone to be run at Europe and America.
With only koreans? Why? Again, what is it ment to promote that GSL isn't already promoting?
With only koreans? What? And remind me, what exactly GSL is promoting?
Can i answer your questions with counter questions too? How long can we go on only doing counter questions? Is it possible you will answer my questions with an answer one of these days? (To use the old kinder garden pharse: "I asked first. What exactly it's promoting? You can't answer that questions with asking me what it's promoting. I don't know what exactly WCS is promoting or I wouldn't ask.)
(Edit: Too many spelling errors)
I claim it does not promote anything special (something, that GSL is not promoting, for instance), but then again i lack the knowledge and have no idea what GSL promotes (and what WCS meant to promote).
Ah, that explains the questions. And leave my original question. What exactly is WCS ment to promote? Anyone else wanna jump in and try to answer?
So what, exactly, is WCS ment to be? And what, exactly, is it ment to promote?
It is meant to be GSL/OSL clone to be run at Europe and America.
With only koreans? Why? Again, what is it ment to promote that GSL isn't already promoting?
With only koreans? What? And remind me, what exactly GSL is promoting?
Can i answer your questions with counter questions too? How long can we go on only doing counter questions? Is it possible you will answer my questions with an answer one of these days? (To use the old kinder garden pharse: "I asked first. What exactly it's promoting? You can't answer that questions with asking me what it's promoting. I don't know what exactly WCS is promoting or I wouldn't ask.)
(Edit: Too many spelling errors)
I claim it does not promote anything special (something, that GSL is not promoting, for instance), but then again i lack the knowledge and have no idea what GSL promotes (and what WCS meant to promote).
Ah, that explains the questions. And leave my original question. What exactly is WCS ment to promote? Anyone else wanna jump in and try to answer?
Yes it is possible to be successful, but that's not what WCS is meant to be.
Say what? WCS isn't ment to be successful? That explains A LOT.
WCS isn't meant to be another WCG
So what, exactly, is WCS ment to be? And what, exactly, is it ment to promote?
The Global Finals are meant to be what the Shanghai Masters is in Tennis.
I have no idea what that is. Don't really follow tennis and only know what grands slams and the olypics are in tennis. Never heard of any Shanghai Masters.
Ah sorry, not the Shanghai Masters. What I meant was the ATP World Tour Finals
TL;DR: it's the 8 best performing players of the entire season playing in one tournament.
Ah, that one I actually did know. Usually played in Dubai. Anyways, since tennis seems a favorite sport to compare to for some reason I'll try to answer you.
Tennis do not have the same challanges as Sc2. There is no 1 country that totally dominates the sport and there havn't been for decades (might have been in the early days I donno). There is a nice spread among the top players with every continent on the planet present (Asia is a bit low but 1 or 2 exists from there too in grand slams). Since the sport has been like this with a good spread for a long time there has been no reason for a ruling body over the sport to step in and take action. Interest is naturally spread around the would because all parts of the world have top players and top tournaments.
Here is another sport for you tho. Nordic cross country skiing. The sport is aproximately the same size as tennis (might be slightly bigger). One country is completely dominating it (Norway) and have been for a very long time. (This sport is actually a very good example to study because it's so simular to SC2 and korean dominance). What happened here however is that early on the international organisation with Norway in the front realized that this is not good for the sport on an international level. Even Norway who dominates it want the rest of the world to be interested and see their dominance. So a number of restrictions was created. Any country can only use 3 (I think) athlets at the world championship. On to of this the previous champions country has a free card (so Norway almost always can field 4). It might be 4 and 5 instead as numbers I can't remeber off hand but the principle stays the same. On top of this Norway has actively encouraged its trainers (not athlets) to go work for other countries and help them catch up. The sport is growing every year as a result and last World Championships hosted 74 countries.
Many other sports have a system simular to this as well. Now, what's so wrong with it?
Lemme guess: ALL world championships were won by Norwegians in rather dominating fashion? If not, then your example is bad one, because it still does not show a clear dominance of 1 country over rest.
Skiing is a lot older than SC2. So no, not all WCs since the 1900s have been won by norwegians. Just the majority of them. The last WC saw Norway take 8 gold, 5 silver, 6 bronze with the closest nation behind them take 4 medals total. The main reason why other countries take medals is because norway isn't allowed to send more than a few athlets and they can have a bad day/week. It has happened more than once that reserves from norway take gold in the competition when they get the chanse. Getting into the norwegian national ski team is about as easy as ranking top 4 in sc2 in korea yeah. So it is a very good comparison.
Now how about you answer my question about what is so bad with the system I outlined above that proven global sports use.
Classic skiing was also dominated by Austria for a long time. Was that bad for everybody? No it wasn't because people starting looking at what the Austrian skiing team was doing, their training methods, the thoughts going into it, the science behind it, etc. Now the playing field is a lot more even. There's a chance that the same thing happens to SC2. The reasons are the exact same - Koreans aren't better because they're Korean but because their training environment is simply better, their ladder is perfect for training, their teamhouses provide them with the best conditions to practice and perform, their teams take care of players, etc.
"Second strongest region" as in "second most Koreans playing". Better or worse just depends on how much passion and entertainment Americans are able to get out of cheering for/ watching "adopted" Koreans play. As a European I feel somewhat robbed when MVP takes our #1 spot, but then Americas culture is probably way more suited to making "foreigners" your own. If people can watch, enjoy and truly be happy when "their" (korean) player wins, then it might be a blessing for the notoriously weak NA scene. On the other hand it just might make it even harder for american talent to emerge.
So, dear region-lockers, let me ask this way: Blizzard has already said that they would like to push the whole WCS eventually to be offline. Will that solve your problem? But what if Koreans just move into US/Europe permanently and continue playing even completely offline? What will you require then - citizenship? Permanent residency? Or do you just want Blizzard to hire a team of antropologists to judge if the guy isn't too Korean to play?
The whole idea of region lock is absurd in the globalised world. Maybe it will work in US, because it is notoriously difficult to move there, but there is very little you can do in Europe to prevent all the Koreans to just become Europeans at almost any level barring actual citizenship. But do you really want nationalistic bureaocracy to be the deciding factor in esports competiton?
And a last question: if you want a region lock, that means you are also OK with a region lock in Korea, right? No more foreigners in Korea and a completely closed scene like in late BW?
On August 14 2013 05:03 holmesgenius wrote: No matter what......korean will win this season.
And every season for the likely future. Time to pack up and go back to Brood War right? Oh wait...
my bet is that grubby will be the first foreigner to win wcs eu
possible but his games are a bit too unstable. he doesn't really have a lot of games where he dominates the player. Personally I think dimaga can take it if he plays as well as he did in season 1
really depends on the brackets as well. anyhow it's gonna be interesting to see if the entire ro8 gonna be different against for season 3
On August 14 2013 22:23 DarkLordOlli wrote: Classic skiing was also dominated by Austria for a long time. Was that bad for everybody? No it wasn't because people starting looking at what the Austrian skiing team was doing, their training methods, the thoughts going into it, the science behind it, etc. Now the playing field is a lot more even. There's a chance that the same thing happens to SC2. The reasons are the exact same - Koreans aren't better because they're Korean but because their training environment is simply better, their ladder is perfect for training, their teamhouses provide them with the best conditions to practice and perform, their teams take care of players, etc.
That works as long as you don’t smother the competitive scene with talent from another region. As long as there are ways for skilled players to practice against people of their skill level or greater, they will have a shot at being WCS champion. But there does need to be a progression for people to become as good as the Korean players. If you look at most professional sports, it travels along these lines.
• Pick up games/amateur play. • High school • College • Minor leagues • Major leagues
This system works out and allows people to rise, challenge themselves and advice. There needs to be rules in place to protect the lower leagues from higher level players simply crushing through them to win prize money. No one would be ok with a NFL player competing in a amateur football game. The system won’t work if it is:
• Pick up games/amateur play. • Major league(WCS)
Then there need to be some effort to allow people to rise through the ranks and if we can’t see a clear progression, the community leaders and folks who run the leagues need to look into it. It is less about protecting a region and more about providing a clear path for players to take on the way to WCS.
So what, exactly, is WCS ment to be? And what, exactly, is it ment to promote?
It is meant to be GSL/OSL clone to be run at Europe and America.
With only koreans? Why? Again, what is it ment to promote that GSL isn't already promoting?
With only koreans? What? And remind me, what exactly GSL is promoting?
Can i answer your questions with counter questions too? How long can we go on only doing counter questions? Is it possible you will answer my questions with an answer one of these days? (To use the old kinder garden pharse: "I asked first. What exactly it's promoting? You can't answer that questions with asking me what it's promoting. I don't know what exactly WCS is promoting or I wouldn't ask.)
(Edit: Too many spelling errors)
I claim it does not promote anything special (something, that GSL is not promoting, for instance), but then again i lack the knowledge and have no idea what GSL promotes (and what WCS meant to promote).
Ah, that explains the questions. And leave my original question. What exactly is WCS ment to promote? Anyone else wanna jump in and try to answer?
This proves what I'm saying about Blizzard's goal to establish a Masters type tournament btw.
Thanks for linking that. Now I know I'm not alone in my view about this. 90% of the posts on that page brings the same points as I have tried here.
I think WCS failed when they chose their name. WC kinda implies a World Cup and that kinda aplies participants from all over the world not just one country (yeah, I know americans love to call american sports 'world this and world that' but all us outside of america is just confused like hell about it. Especially since it actually was a World Cup last year. They should had rebranded it al when they decided to abandon the idea of a World Cup and I might had have an easier time to try and understand what they were aiming at.
On August 14 2013 22:23 DarkLordOlli wrote: Classic skiing was also dominated by Austria for a long time. Was that bad for everybody? No it wasn't because people starting looking at what the Austrian skiing team was doing, their training methods, the thoughts going into it, the science behind it, etc. Now the playing field is a lot more even. There's a chance that the same thing happens to SC2. The reasons are the exact same - Koreans aren't better because they're Korean but because their training environment is simply better, their ladder is perfect for training, their teamhouses provide them with the best conditions to practice and perform, their teams take care of players, etc.
I think you are thinking of apline skiing. If so this is correct but the same region lock and methods as described in my norwegian example was also implemented here to counteract this. Austrians are still a very strong country in alpine sports but the sport is now global with stars from many countries.
On August 14 2013 22:39 opisska wrote: So, dear region-lockers, let me ask this way: Blizzard has already said that they would like to push the whole WCS eventually to be offline. Will that solve your problem? But what if Koreans just move into US/Europe permanently and continue playing even completely offline? What will you require then - citizenship? Permanent residency? Or do you just want Blizzard to hire a team of antropologists to judge if the guy isn't too Korean to play?
The whole idea of region lock is absurd in the globalised world. Maybe it will work in US, because it is notoriously difficult to move there, but there is very little you can do in Europe to prevent all the Koreans to just become Europeans at almost any level barring actual citizenship. But do you really want nationalistic bureaocracy to be the deciding factor in esports competiton?
And a last question: if you want a region lock, that means you are also OK with a region lock in Korea, right? No more foreigners in Korea and a completely closed scene like in late BW?
The last part is fine. Our heroes will get their chanse to prove themselves in the world finals anyways (and likely loose). If it is required to get rid of the current situation to demand citizenship then so be it. It worked fine in WCS EU 2012 so I see no problem with it. I'm open to discuss allowing permanent residents tho (like Polt and ForGG etc). That might be Ok seeing that they live in the region and all but if that means we'll see a virtual emigration of koreans across the world then I think something else is fundamentally wrong with the korean scene and that this should be adressed instead (and if this happened I'd instantly shut the regional tournaments to citizens only).
That's just how I would handle it and what I would be happy with since you asked my opinion.
Look the WCS isn't designed to find the best player in Europe or North America. That isn't its goal. That was its goal last year but when they redid the system they changed what they were trying to do.
The WCS is designed now with the purpose of creating a Master's Tournament that crowns a global champion yearly. It's the World Cup, the Superbowl whatever you want to call it. It's the big prize that every player on the planet dreams of. The entire format they've currently developed is built with the purpose of building towards the finals at the end of the year. That's why there is no region locking, If there was region locking then the finals at the end of the year will just be a repeat of 2012 where the Koreans stomp on everyone that managed to get through the other regions and the eventual champion is whichever of the small number of lucky Koreans that made it through their own stacked tournament to get there.
Its completely anti-climactic and goes against what Blizzard is trying to do.
I feel for people that want a big tournament that focuses on finding the best player in Europe or NA but that IS NOT what the WCS is for, and people clamoring for Region Locking can't seem to grasp that what they want isn't what Blizzard wanted when they made WCS in the first place, the goals are not the same.
If the demand is there for a big region locked tournament that crowns the big title for Europe or NA then someone else will come along to fill that void, hell that someone might even be Blizzard next year with a separate set of tournaments, but that isn't what WCS is, it isn't what it's designed to be.
On August 14 2013 23:15 DarkLordOlli wrote: Again, you're talking about a soccer worldcup type of tournament which Blizzard stated they didn't want WCS to be
Yes, I think it is The World Cup in the title of the tournament that has me being confused and believing this is a World Cup..
On August 14 2013 11:35 jax1492 wrote: NA is not better than EU, Its Korea lite I agree but I still think EU was better.
Eh I'd split the difference personally.
The way I see it...NA's peak ability is higher than EU. Due to a mix of a couple of outstanding foreigners, great Koreans looking for an "easier" path and of course the extremely promising Chinese players.
But EU has on average better players. There are a lot more players who, whilst they might not be at the very top of the game, are more than capable of holding their own and taking games and series off Koreans.
Think about it this way: Scarlett has a good claim on "best foreigner in the world" right now. But there's only one Scarlett. Out of the rest of NA how many non-Koreans would you gamble on genuinely competing well against the Koreans? Two or three? Maybe?
On the other hand looking at WCS EU you've got LucifroN, VortiX, Naniwa, Grubby, TLO, etc etc. Quite a lot of players who compete well against Koreans.
In short: if everyone in NA and EU was competing in the same tournament then if you had to put money on it then the smart money would be that EU region representation would be higher, but an NA player would be more likely to win it.
Or in other words if I had to choose one region to put an entire team together from it'd be EU. But if I had to pick a star player I'd probably want to pick someone from NA.
On August 14 2013 23:21 Vindicare605 wrote: Look the WCS isn't designed to find the best player in Europe or North America. That isn't its goal. That was its goal last year but when they redid the system they changed what they were trying to do.
The WCS is designed now with the purpose of creating a Master's Tournament that crowns a global champion yearly. It's the World Cup, the Superbowl whatever you want to call it. It's the big prize that every player on the planet dreams of. The entire format they've currently developed is built with the purpose of building towards the finals at the end of the year. That's why there is no region locking, If there was region locking then the finals at the end of the year will just be a repeat of 2012 where the Koreans stomp on everyone that managed to get through the other regions and the eventual champion is whichever of the small number of lucky Koreans that made it through their own stacked tournament to get there.
Its completely anti-climactic and goes against what Blizzard is trying to do.
I feel for people that want a big tournament that focuses on finding the best player in Europe or NA but that IS NOT what the WCS is for, and people clamoring for Region Locking can't seem to grasp that what they want isn't what Blizzard wanted when they made WCS in the first place, the goals are not the same.
If the demand is there for a big region locked tournament that crowns the big title for Europe or NA then someone else will come along to fill that void, hell that someone might even be Blizzard next year with a separate set of tournaments, but that isn't what WCS is, it isn't what it's designed to be.
Then with risk of sounding bad... Why the Hell call is WCS EU and WCS NA? Why not just have WCS GSL (Korea) and get it done with if the point is to find the best player in the world and not foster the regions? They can invite Naniwa and Scarlett to the challanger division. Anyone else who wanna compete can move to Korea and try their luck in the qualifiers.
If this is the goal and purpose of WCS then atleast have the decency to name it correctly and don't confuse us fans. I also think comparing the current WCS to superbowl is a very good comparison. Noone in the world outside of one country (the USA) cares about that event.
On August 14 2013 23:15 DarkLordOlli wrote: Again, you're talking about a soccer worldcup type of tournament which Blizzard stated they didn't want WCS to be
Yes, I think it is The World Cup in the title of the tournament that has me being confused and believing this is a World Cup..
Yeah I mentioned long ago that Blizzard should have chosen a different name. Although it's difficult to think of an alternative since it's being held in different parts of the world. The sticking point really is that they are being held in specific regions that have a sense of entitlement for a local scene, so those regions are calling for isolation. Had they been held in less popular areas, say SEA/CN/AUS, none of the AM/EU guys would be calling for region locking.
On August 14 2013 11:35 jax1492 wrote: NA is not better than EU, Its Korea lite I agree but I still think EU was better.
Eh I'd split the difference personally.
The way I see it...NA's peak ability is higher than EU. Due to a mix of a couple of outstanding foreigners, great Koreans looking for an "easier" path and of course the extremely promising Chinese players.
But EU has on average better players. There are a lot more players who, whilst they might not be at the very top of the game, are more than capable of holding their own and taking games and series off Koreans.
Think about it this way: Scarlett has a good claim on "best foreigner in the world" right now. But there's only one Scarlett. Out of the rest of NA how many non-Koreans would you gamble on genuinely competing well against the Koreans? Two or three? Maybe?
On the other hand looking at WCS EU you've got LucifroN, VortiX, Naniwa, Grubby, TLO, etc etc. Quite a lot of players who compete well against Koreans.
In short: if everyone in NA and EU was competing in the same tournament then if you had to put money on it then the smart money would be that EU region representation would be higher, but an NA player would be more likely to win it.
Or in other words if I had to choose one region to put an entire team together from it'd be EU. But if I had to pick a star player I'd probably want to pick someone from NA.
I dunno, I think Koreans as good as Polt and Taeja would stomp just as easily through Europe as they did through NA.
I'm not saying that you're wrong about Europe having on average superior pros to NA, but I think you're overestimating their chances against Code S level Koreans cross server lag not being a factor.
Put another way, MC, Duckdeok and MMA conquered Europe this season. They aren't even close to being on the same level as Polt or Taeja.
On August 14 2013 23:21 Vindicare605 wrote: Look the WCS isn't designed to find the best player in Europe or North America. That isn't its goal. That was its goal last year but when they redid the system they changed what they were trying to do.
The WCS is designed now with the purpose of creating a Master's Tournament that crowns a global champion yearly. It's the World Cup, the Superbowl whatever you want to call it. It's the big prize that every player on the planet dreams of. The entire format they've currently developed is built with the purpose of building towards the finals at the end of the year. That's why there is no region locking, If there was region locking then the finals at the end of the year will just be a repeat of 2012 where the Koreans stomp on everyone that managed to get through the other regions and the eventual champion is whichever of the small number of lucky Koreans that made it through their own stacked tournament to get there.
Its completely anti-climactic and goes against what Blizzard is trying to do.
I feel for people that want a big tournament that focuses on finding the best player in Europe or NA but that IS NOT what the WCS is for, and people clamoring for Region Locking can't seem to grasp that what they want isn't what Blizzard wanted when they made WCS in the first place, the goals are not the same.
If the demand is there for a big region locked tournament that crowns the big title for Europe or NA then someone else will come along to fill that void, hell that someone might even be Blizzard next year with a separate set of tournaments, but that isn't what WCS is, it isn't what it's designed to be.
Then with risk of sounding bad... Why the Hell call is WCS EU and WCS NA? Why not just have WCS GSL (Korea) and get it done with if the point is to find the best player in the world and not foster the regions? They can invite Naniwa and Scarlett to the challanger division. Anyone else who wanna compete can move to Korea and try their luck in the qualifiers.
If this is the goal and purpose of WCS then atleast have the decency to name it correctly and don't confuse us fans. I also think comparing the current WCS to superbowl is a very good comparison. Noone in the world outside of one country (the USA) cares about that event.
I'm not disagreeing with you that perhaps the regions could be named to something else more arbitrary like Auir, Char or Korhal (keeping with Starcraft theme.) and that it is a little confusing especially after last year's format.
However, I will say that you are absolutely dead wrong about your last sentence. This attitude of "if its dominated by Koreans then I'm not watching" is that of a vocal minority.
I personally will NEVER understand why the nationality of a player has any bearing whatsoever on whether or not a fan will support him. I don't get it. I don't get it in Sports, I don't get it in e-sports. I understand the attitude exists but this scene can and will survive without people that let that attitude dominate their thinking.
On August 14 2013 23:15 DarkLordOlli wrote: Again, you're talking about a soccer worldcup type of tournament which Blizzard stated they didn't want WCS to be
Yes, I think it is The World Cup in the title of the tournament that has me being confused and believing this is a World Cup..
Yeah I mentioned long ago that Blizzard should have chosen a different name. Although it's difficult to think of an alternative since it's being held in different parts of the world. The sticking point really is that they are being held in specific regions that have a sense of entitlement for a local scene, so those regions are calling for isolation. Had they been held in less popular areas, say SEA/CN/AUS, none of the AM/EU guys would be calling for region locking.
Agreed.
They could also had made their intentions clear from the start. Had they stated that the purpose of this tournament is to showcase koreans on prime time in all regions we would have known what to expect. And they might not have recieved such a bad reception from fans and enthusiasts.
(And someone else could had started to take up the torch from last year and form a real WCS EU right away. And No, WCG is not it, it lacks a lot of countries and good players and seems to miss continental finals)
After that last game, I feel like the #1 thing Scarlett lacks is starsense and series control. Unfortunately, I think that's the hardest thing to develop for a Starcraft player.
Edit: They could work it with the angle of "we want to provide fans in all three regions the opportunity to see great games, that's why we're hosting them there, but they are all three normal tournaments which we will be renaming to X, Y, and Z". I would be cool with that.
On August 14 2013 23:21 Vindicare605 wrote: Look the WCS isn't designed to find the best player in Europe or North America. That isn't its goal. That was its goal last year but when they redid the system they changed what they were trying to do.
The WCS is designed now with the purpose of creating a Master's Tournament that crowns a global champion yearly. It's the World Cup, the Superbowl whatever you want to call it. It's the big prize that every player on the planet dreams of. The entire format they've currently developed is built with the purpose of building towards the finals at the end of the year. That's why there is no region locking, If there was region locking then the finals at the end of the year will just be a repeat of 2012 where the Koreans stomp on everyone that managed to get through the other regions and the eventual champion is whichever of the small number of lucky Koreans that made it through their own stacked tournament to get there.
Its completely anti-climactic and goes against what Blizzard is trying to do.
I feel for people that want a big tournament that focuses on finding the best player in Europe or NA but that IS NOT what the WCS is for, and people clamoring for Region Locking can't seem to grasp that what they want isn't what Blizzard wanted when they made WCS in the first place, the goals are not the same.
If the demand is there for a big region locked tournament that crowns the big title for Europe or NA then someone else will come along to fill that void, hell that someone might even be Blizzard next year with a separate set of tournaments, but that isn't what WCS is, it isn't what it's designed to be.
Then with risk of sounding bad... Why the Hell call is WCS EU and WCS NA? Why not just have WCS GSL (Korea) and get it done with if the point is to find the best player in the world and not foster the regions? They can invite Naniwa and Scarlett to the challanger division. Anyone else who wanna compete can move to Korea and try their luck in the qualifiers.
If this is the goal and purpose of WCS then atleast have the decency to name it correctly and don't confuse us fans. I also think comparing the current WCS to superbowl is a very good comparison. Noone in the world outside of one country (the USA) cares about that event.
I'm not disagreeing with you that perhaps the regions could be named to something else more arbitrary like Auir, Char or Korhal (keeping with Starcraft theme.) and that it is a little confusing especially after last year's format.
However, I will say that you are absolutely dead wrong about your last sentence. This attitude of "if its dominated by Koreans then I'm not watching" is that of a vocal minority.
I personally will NEVER understand why the nationality of a player has any bearing whatsoever on whether or not a fan will support him. I don't get it. I don't get it in Sports, I don't get it in e-sports. I understand the attitude exists but this scene can and will survive without people that let that attitude dominate their thinking.
Will it shrink, perhaps, but it will survive.
It will shrink to Broodwar, the last years.
I do care about who is the best korean. I watch the GSL to see that. I just do not understand why you want to watch WCS AM/EU to see who is the best korean. If you want to see good koreans in your own time zone there is/was already Dreamhack and MLGs that sported this.
What differs us in who we choose to cheer for is that I like to feel somewhat connected to whom I cheer for. Naniwa for instance has grown up in the same country and same region of that country as me. I know what he must have gone through to get to where it is. This makes it much easier for me to sympatize with him and feel pride etc if he wins something than a korean which I have absolutely nothing in common with. I have no idea what his life must have been like and cannot imagine what challanges he has faced. This is normal in sports fans. This is why you typically root for your local team in sports and not for the team on the other side of the earth (unless you just wanna be different from your local friends). For me it's equally amazing to find that there apperently are people who have never felt this connection to their local comunity.
On August 14 2013 11:35 jax1492 wrote: NA is not better than EU, Its Korea lite I agree but I still think EU was better.
Eh I'd split the difference personally.
The way I see it...NA's peak ability is higher than EU. Due to a mix of a couple of outstanding foreigners, great Koreans looking for an "easier" path and of course the extremely promising Chinese players.
But EU has on average better players. There are a lot more players who, whilst they might not be at the very top of the game, are more than capable of holding their own and taking games and series off Koreans.
Think about it this way: Scarlett has a good claim on "best foreigner in the world" right now. But there's only one Scarlett. Out of the rest of NA how many non-Koreans would you gamble on genuinely competing well against the Koreans? Two or three? Maybe?
On the other hand looking at WCS EU you've got LucifroN, VortiX, Naniwa, Grubby, TLO, etc etc. Quite a lot of players who compete well against Koreans.
In short: if everyone in NA and EU was competing in the same tournament then if you had to put money on it then the smart money would be that EU region representation would be higher, but an NA player would be more likely to win it.
Or in other words if I had to choose one region to put an entire team together from it'd be EU. But if I had to pick a star player I'd probably want to pick someone from NA.
AM have Scarlett.....Scarlett.....Scarlett...? AM have only one player that could hardly win merged EU/NA and her name is Scarlett. EU have like you said Naniwa, Lucifron, VortiX, Grubby, HasuObs and Welmu.
I don't get where you get your idea that NA player would most likely to win it
On August 14 2013 11:35 jax1492 wrote: NA is not better than EU, Its Korea lite I agree but I still think EU was better.
Eh I'd split the difference personally.
The way I see it...NA's peak ability is higher than EU. Due to a mix of a couple of outstanding foreigners, great Koreans looking for an "easier" path and of course the extremely promising Chinese players.
But EU has on average better players. There are a lot more players who, whilst they might not be at the very top of the game, are more than capable of holding their own and taking games and series off Koreans.
Think about it this way: Scarlett has a good claim on "best foreigner in the world" right now. But there's only one Scarlett. Out of the rest of NA how many non-Koreans would you gamble on genuinely competing well against the Koreans? Two or three? Maybe?
On the other hand looking at WCS EU you've got LucifroN, VortiX, Naniwa, Grubby, TLO, etc etc. Quite a lot of players who compete well against Koreans.
In short: if everyone in NA and EU was competing in the same tournament then if you had to put money on it then the smart money would be that EU region representation would be higher, but an NA player would be more likely to win it.
Or in other words if I had to choose one region to put an entire team together from it'd be EU. But if I had to pick a star player I'd probably want to pick someone from NA.
AM have Scarlett.....Scarlett.....Scarlett...? AM have only one player that could hardly win merged EU/NA and her name is Scarlett. EU have like you said Naniwa, Lucifron, VortiX, Grubby, HasuObs and Welmu.
I don't get where you get your idea that NA player would most likely to win it
Because AM also has a ton of Koreans in it. The foreign EU players are definitely better than the foreign AM players, but AM has more and better Korean players than EU.
On August 14 2013 23:21 Vindicare605 wrote: Look the WCS isn't designed to find the best player in Europe or North America. That isn't its goal. That was its goal last year but when they redid the system they changed what they were trying to do.
The WCS is designed now with the purpose of creating a Master's Tournament that crowns a global champion yearly. It's the World Cup, the Superbowl whatever you want to call it. It's the big prize that every player on the planet dreams of. The entire format they've currently developed is built with the purpose of building towards the finals at the end of the year. That's why there is no region locking, If there was region locking then the finals at the end of the year will just be a repeat of 2012 where the Koreans stomp on everyone that managed to get through the other regions and the eventual champion is whichever of the small number of lucky Koreans that made it through their own stacked tournament to get there.
Its completely anti-climactic and goes against what Blizzard is trying to do.
I feel for people that want a big tournament that focuses on finding the best player in Europe or NA but that IS NOT what the WCS is for, and people clamoring for Region Locking can't seem to grasp that what they want isn't what Blizzard wanted when they made WCS in the first place, the goals are not the same.
If the demand is there for a big region locked tournament that crowns the big title for Europe or NA then someone else will come along to fill that void, hell that someone might even be Blizzard next year with a separate set of tournaments, but that isn't what WCS is, it isn't what it's designed to be.
Then with risk of sounding bad... Why the Hell call is WCS EU and WCS NA? Why not just have WCS GSL (Korea) and get it done with if the point is to find the best player in the world and not foster the regions? They can invite Naniwa and Scarlett to the challanger division. Anyone else who wanna compete can move to Korea and try their luck in the qualifiers.
If this is the goal and purpose of WCS then atleast have the decency to name it correctly and don't confuse us fans. I also think comparing the current WCS to superbowl is a very good comparison. Noone in the world outside of one country (the USA) cares about that event.
I'm not disagreeing with you that perhaps the regions could be named to something else more arbitrary like Auir, Char or Korhal (keeping with Starcraft theme.) and that it is a little confusing especially after last year's format.
However, I will say that you are absolutely dead wrong about your last sentence. This attitude of "if its dominated by Koreans then I'm not watching" is that of a vocal minority.
I personally will NEVER understand why the nationality of a player has any bearing whatsoever on whether or not a fan will support him. I don't get it. I don't get it in Sports, I don't get it in e-sports. I understand the attitude exists but this scene can and will survive without people that let that attitude dominate their thinking.
Will it shrink, perhaps, but it will survive.
It will shrink to Broodwar, the last years.
I do care about who is the best korean. I watch the GSL to see that. I just do not understand why you want to watch WCS AM/EU to see who is the best korean. If you want to see good koreans in your own time zone there is/was already Dreamhack and MLGs that sported this.
What differs us in who we choose to cheer for is that I like to feel somewhat connected to whom I cheer for. Naniwa for instance has grown up in the same country and same region of that country as me. I know what he must have gone through to get to where it is. This makes it much easier for me to sympatize with him and feel pride etc if he wins something than a korean which I have absolutely nothing in common with. I have no idea what his life must have been like and cannot imagine what challanges he has faced. This is normal in sports fans. This is why you typically root for your local team in sports and not for the team on the other side of the earth (unless you just wanna be different from your local friends). For me it's equally amazing to find that there apperently are people who have never felt this connection to their local comunity.
Only reason i watch WCS EU is to see whether some of our beloved foreigners can take out korean. It happens (*cough*Grubby*cough*), but it is rare. I watch WCS AM for players, whom i know can produce really good games or who are so hyped up, that i want to see how they'll do (*cough*Jim*cough*).
lol. Welmu and Grubby somehow mentioned as possible "best foreigner in the world" haha.
Don't get me wrong, Grubby is like, the best person ever) and as a WC3 veteran and having loved Grubby's play for so long, I would love it for him to be the best foreigner in the world just like in WC3, but come on.. lol. Him and Welmu are "getting there". They don't even come close to that title. Even if they both made the finals, 1 tournament doesn't give you that title anyways. This was a fun write up, but NA isn't going to die unless NA orgas die. All of these doomsday forecasts aren't looking in the right places.
Theognis retired? Okay. That happens literally everywhere. NA is weak? Nobody is going to argue that. NA has awesome infrastructure to improve? Hmm no? Things aside from winning tournaments is what's going to get NA in a better place? Yes
If HuK and Scarlett got first and 2nd in WCS NA, you'd immediately say NA is saved? Come on.... Tournament results are nice, but they are close to nothing when you look at the bigger picture. Imo, the behind the scenes work being done in NA is much more important than the NA's WCS standings.
NA is looking pretty good right now, relatively speaking.
Region locking is something we'll be talking about on end until the rules for the 2014 WCS season are announced, but by then, there might not be a North American scene left to save.
On August 14 2013 23:55 VisonKai wrote: After that last game, I feel like the #1 thing Scarlett lacks is starsense and series control. Unfortunately, I think that's the hardest thing to develop for a Starcraft player.
Edit: They could work it with the angle of "we want to provide fans in all three regions the opportunity to see great games, that's why we're hosting them there, but they are all three normal tournaments which we will be renaming to X, Y, and Z". I would be cool with that.
She said it herself that she just didn't expect a 6 pool on that map, she had prepared for everything else.
Jaedong was just more experienced in that kind of situation, can't fault Scarlett for that at all.
On August 14 2013 04:05 Incognoto wrote: Scarlett is definitely probably one of the best foreigners.
I would go further: Probably one of the top Zerg including the Koreans. Beside Soulkey I don't see a Zerg who I'd consider much stronger than Scarlett. There might be a few around her level, depending on the matchup, but in general I don't think so.
... unfortunately she won't participate next season :-/
On August 14 2013 04:26 Corrish wrote: If I remember correctly Scarlett confirmed in an interview in WCS AM finals that she'll be taking a break after this season to get treatment for her wrist. Which is probably the smart thing to do, but still a shame, especially with the Season final held in her home country.
She didn't "confirm" it, she just said she might take a break. Not 100% sure yet, afaik.
You overrate me ;; Especially in tournaments I play worse due to big nerve issue, and don't have solid ZvP at all ~
I am taking a break for sure, whether I can't play in WCS season 3 depends on the dates for WCS, not whether I am taking time off (99% won't be playing in it as I will be gone all of september)
I think you're selling yourself short. You came 1 game away from making to the WCS AM Finals.
You gotta believe. Not everyone who believes they are the best becomes the best, but no one who doesn't believe they are the best, becomes the best. You become a champion in your own mind first.
On August 14 2013 23:21 Vindicare605 wrote: Look the WCS isn't designed to find the best player in Europe or North America. That isn't its goal. That was its goal last year but when they redid the system they changed what they were trying to do.
The WCS is designed now with the purpose of creating a Master's Tournament that crowns a global champion yearly. It's the World Cup, the Superbowl whatever you want to call it. It's the big prize that every player on the planet dreams of. The entire format they've currently developed is built with the purpose of building towards the finals at the end of the year. That's why there is no region locking, If there was region locking then the finals at the end of the year will just be a repeat of 2012 where the Koreans stomp on everyone that managed to get through the other regions and the eventual champion is whichever of the small number of lucky Koreans that made it through their own stacked tournament to get there.
Its completely anti-climactic and goes against what Blizzard is trying to do.
I feel for people that want a big tournament that focuses on finding the best player in Europe or NA but that IS NOT what the WCS is for, and people clamoring for Region Locking can't seem to grasp that what they want isn't what Blizzard wanted when they made WCS in the first place, the goals are not the same.
If the demand is there for a big region locked tournament that crowns the big title for Europe or NA then someone else will come along to fill that void, hell that someone might even be Blizzard next year with a separate set of tournaments, but that isn't what WCS is, it isn't what it's designed to be.
Then with risk of sounding bad... Why the Hell call is WCS EU and WCS NA? Why not just have WCS GSL (Korea) and get it done with if the point is to find the best player in the world and not foster the regions? They can invite Naniwa and Scarlett to the challanger division. Anyone else who wanna compete can move to Korea and try their luck in the qualifiers.
If this is the goal and purpose of WCS then atleast have the decency to name it correctly and don't confuse us fans. I also think comparing the current WCS to superbowl is a very good comparison. Noone in the world outside of one country (the USA) cares about that event.
I'm not disagreeing with you that perhaps the regions could be named to something else more arbitrary like Auir, Char or Korhal (keeping with Starcraft theme.) and that it is a little confusing especially after last year's format.
However, I will say that you are absolutely dead wrong about your last sentence. This attitude of "if its dominated by Koreans then I'm not watching" is that of a vocal minority.
I personally will NEVER understand why the nationality of a player has any bearing whatsoever on whether or not a fan will support him. I don't get it. I don't get it in Sports, I don't get it in e-sports. I understand the attitude exists but this scene can and will survive without people that let that attitude dominate their thinking.
Will it shrink, perhaps, but it will survive.
Maybe you aren't proud of your country.
Why I cheer for player that I cheer for? Why I watch tournaments that I watch?
Players that I cheer for: Nationality (1st Finnish, 2th Nordic, 3rd European, 4th Foreign, 5th Korean) So I cheer Finnish player vs swe/nor/den player. But if there isnt finnish player then in most cases I cheer for swe/nor/den vs european(non nordic). But ALWAYS I cheer for foreign vs korean. Personality (Funny/Entertaining<--->BM/rage) (good<---->bad)
So players that I cheer for.
Welmu, elfi, Fuzer, Naama, Protosser---> every finnish player. We have so less finnish players that basically being finnish is same as being in same team. Grubby, Naniwa, TLO, Stephano.... I don't cheer for any korean player coz there is nothing to cheer for. Or should I cheer for translator coz he is speaking to us? Lvl of gameplay comes after this. So I only watch tournaments where are my favorite players and try to catch their games.
omg, that's so bad said. I have to write this again sometime with better english so somebody could understand this. Even I dont understand this perfectly :D I have idea in brains but hard to write in english
On August 14 2013 11:35 jax1492 wrote: NA is not better than EU, Its Korea lite I agree but I still think EU was better.
Eh I'd split the difference personally.
The way I see it...NA's peak ability is higher than EU. Due to a mix of a couple of outstanding foreigners, great Koreans looking for an "easier" path and of course the extremely promising Chinese players.
But EU has on average better players. There are a lot more players who, whilst they might not be at the very top of the game, are more than capable of holding their own and taking games and series off Koreans.
Think about it this way: Scarlett has a good claim on "best foreigner in the world" right now. But there's only one Scarlett. Out of the rest of NA how many non-Koreans would you gamble on genuinely competing well against the Koreans? Two or three? Maybe?
On the other hand looking at WCS EU you've got LucifroN, VortiX, Naniwa, Grubby, TLO, etc etc. Quite a lot of players who compete well against Koreans.
In short: if everyone in NA and EU was competing in the same tournament then if you had to put money on it then the smart money would be that EU region representation would be higher, but an NA player would be more likely to win it.
Or in other words if I had to choose one region to put an entire team together from it'd be EU. But if I had to pick a star player I'd probably want to pick someone from NA.
AM have Scarlett.....Scarlett.....Scarlett...? AM have only one player that could hardly win merged EU/NA and her name is Scarlett. EU have like you said Naniwa, Lucifron, VortiX, Grubby, HasuObs and Welmu.
I don't get where you get your idea that NA player would most likely to win it
Because AM also has a ton of Koreans in it. The foreign EU players are definitely better than the foreign AM players, but AM has more and better Korean players than EU.
He was saying AM players vs EU players. No koreans. I understood his post like that. He didnt said single korean player in his post...
On August 14 2013 23:21 Vindicare605 wrote: Look the WCS isn't designed to find the best player in Europe or North America. That isn't its goal. That was its goal last year but when they redid the system they changed what they were trying to do.
The WCS is designed now with the purpose of creating a Master's Tournament that crowns a global champion yearly. It's the World Cup, the Superbowl whatever you want to call it. It's the big prize that every player on the planet dreams of. The entire format they've currently developed is built with the purpose of building towards the finals at the end of the year. That's why there is no region locking, If there was region locking then the finals at the end of the year will just be a repeat of 2012 where the Koreans stomp on everyone that managed to get through the other regions and the eventual champion is whichever of the small number of lucky Koreans that made it through their own stacked tournament to get there.
Its completely anti-climactic and goes against what Blizzard is trying to do.
I feel for people that want a big tournament that focuses on finding the best player in Europe or NA but that IS NOT what the WCS is for, and people clamoring for Region Locking can't seem to grasp that what they want isn't what Blizzard wanted when they made WCS in the first place, the goals are not the same.
If the demand is there for a big region locked tournament that crowns the big title for Europe or NA then someone else will come along to fill that void, hell that someone might even be Blizzard next year with a separate set of tournaments, but that isn't what WCS is, it isn't what it's designed to be.
Then with risk of sounding bad... Why the Hell call is WCS EU and WCS NA? Why not just have WCS GSL (Korea) and get it done with if the point is to find the best player in the world and not foster the regions? They can invite Naniwa and Scarlett to the challanger division. Anyone else who wanna compete can move to Korea and try their luck in the qualifiers.
If this is the goal and purpose of WCS then atleast have the decency to name it correctly and don't confuse us fans. I also think comparing the current WCS to superbowl is a very good comparison. Noone in the world outside of one country (the USA) cares about that event.
I'm not disagreeing with you that perhaps the regions could be named to something else more arbitrary like Auir, Char or Korhal (keeping with Starcraft theme.) and that it is a little confusing especially after last year's format.
However, I will say that you are absolutely dead wrong about your last sentence. This attitude of "if its dominated by Koreans then I'm not watching" is that of a vocal minority.
I personally will NEVER understand why the nationality of a player has any bearing whatsoever on whether or not a fan will support him. I don't get it. I don't get it in Sports, I don't get it in e-sports. I understand the attitude exists but this scene can and will survive without people that let that attitude dominate their thinking.
Will it shrink, perhaps, but it will survive.
It will shrink to Broodwar, the last years.
I do care about who is the best korean. I watch the GSL to see that. I just do not understand why you want to watch WCS AM/EU to see who is the best korean. If you want to see good koreans in your own time zone there is/was already Dreamhack and MLGs that sported this.
What differs us in who we choose to cheer for is that I like to feel somewhat connected to whom I cheer for. Naniwa for instance has grown up in the same country and same region of that country as me. I know what he must have gone through to get to where it is. This makes it much easier for me to sympatize with him and feel pride etc if he wins something than a korean which I have absolutely nothing in common with. I have no idea what his life must have been like and cannot imagine what challanges he has faced. This is normal in sports fans. This is why you typically root for your local team in sports and not for the team on the other side of the earth (unless you just wanna be different from your local friends). For me it's equally amazing to find that there apperently are people who have never felt this connection to their local comunity.
Only reason i watch WCS EU is to see whether some of our beloved foreigners can take out korean. It happens (*cough*Grubby*cough*), but it is rare. I watch WCS AM for players, whom i know can produce really good games or who are so hyped up, that i want to see how they'll do (*cough*Jim*cough*).
And with this I am to assume you did not watch WCS EU 2012 then since it held no koreans to defeat. Just poor games between europeans? If this isn't true and you watched it your point is mute.
On August 14 2013 23:21 Vindicare605 wrote: Look the WCS isn't designed to find the best player in Europe or North America. That isn't its goal. That was its goal last year but when they redid the system they changed what they were trying to do.
The WCS is designed now with the purpose of creating a Master's Tournament that crowns a global champion yearly. It's the World Cup, the Superbowl whatever you want to call it. It's the big prize that every player on the planet dreams of. The entire format they've currently developed is built with the purpose of building towards the finals at the end of the year. That's why there is no region locking, If there was region locking then the finals at the end of the year will just be a repeat of 2012 where the Koreans stomp on everyone that managed to get through the other regions and the eventual champion is whichever of the small number of lucky Koreans that made it through their own stacked tournament to get there.
Its completely anti-climactic and goes against what Blizzard is trying to do.
I feel for people that want a big tournament that focuses on finding the best player in Europe or NA but that IS NOT what the WCS is for, and people clamoring for Region Locking can't seem to grasp that what they want isn't what Blizzard wanted when they made WCS in the first place, the goals are not the same.
If the demand is there for a big region locked tournament that crowns the big title for Europe or NA then someone else will come along to fill that void, hell that someone might even be Blizzard next year with a separate set of tournaments, but that isn't what WCS is, it isn't what it's designed to be.
Then with risk of sounding bad... Why the Hell call is WCS EU and WCS NA? Why not just have WCS GSL (Korea) and get it done with if the point is to find the best player in the world and not foster the regions? They can invite Naniwa and Scarlett to the challanger division. Anyone else who wanna compete can move to Korea and try their luck in the qualifiers.
If this is the goal and purpose of WCS then atleast have the decency to name it correctly and don't confuse us fans. I also think comparing the current WCS to superbowl is a very good comparison. Noone in the world outside of one country (the USA) cares about that event.
I'm not disagreeing with you that perhaps the regions could be named to something else more arbitrary like Auir, Char or Korhal (keeping with Starcraft theme.) and that it is a little confusing especially after last year's format.
However, I will say that you are absolutely dead wrong about your last sentence. This attitude of "if its dominated by Koreans then I'm not watching" is that of a vocal minority.
I personally will NEVER understand why the nationality of a player has any bearing whatsoever on whether or not a fan will support him. I don't get it. I don't get it in Sports, I don't get it in e-sports. I understand the attitude exists but this scene can and will survive without people that let that attitude dominate their thinking.
Will it shrink, perhaps, but it will survive.
Maybe you aren't proud of your country.
Why I cheer for player that I cheer for? Why I watch tournaments that I watch?
Players that I cheer for: Nationality (1st Finnish, 2th Nordic, 3rd European, 4th Foreign, 5th Korean) So I cheer Finnish player vs swe/nor/den player. But if there isnt finnish player then in most cases I cheer for swe/nor/den vs european(non nordic). But ALWAYS I cheer for foreign vs korean. Personality (Funny/Entertaining<--->BM/rage) (good<---->bad)
So players that I cheer for.
Welmu, elfi, Fuzer, Naama, Protosser---> every finnish player. We have so less finnish players that basically being finnish is same as being in same team. Grubby, Naniwa, TLO, Stephano.... I don't cheer for any korean player coz there is nothing to cheer for. Or should I cheer for translator coz he is speaking to us? Lvl of gameplay comes after this. So I only watch tournaments where are my favorite players and try to catch their games.
omg, that's so bad said. I have to write this again sometime with better english so somebody could understand this. Even I dont understand this perfectly :D I have idea in brains but hard to write in english
See I don't associate national pride with who I cheer for in an E-Sport.
I watch Starcraft because I love watching Starcraft, there doesn't need to be anyone from my country competing for me to have an investment in it, I watch because I love the game. If there's someone competing from my hometown then cool, but it isn't necessary for me to care who wins and who loses.
On August 14 2013 23:21 Vindicare605 wrote: Look the WCS isn't designed to find the best player in Europe or North America. That isn't its goal. That was its goal last year but when they redid the system they changed what they were trying to do.
The WCS is designed now with the purpose of creating a Master's Tournament that crowns a global champion yearly. It's the World Cup, the Superbowl whatever you want to call it. It's the big prize that every player on the planet dreams of. The entire format they've currently developed is built with the purpose of building towards the finals at the end of the year. That's why there is no region locking, If there was region locking then the finals at the end of the year will just be a repeat of 2012 where the Koreans stomp on everyone that managed to get through the other regions and the eventual champion is whichever of the small number of lucky Koreans that made it through their own stacked tournament to get there.
Its completely anti-climactic and goes against what Blizzard is trying to do.
I feel for people that want a big tournament that focuses on finding the best player in Europe or NA but that IS NOT what the WCS is for, and people clamoring for Region Locking can't seem to grasp that what they want isn't what Blizzard wanted when they made WCS in the first place, the goals are not the same.
If the demand is there for a big region locked tournament that crowns the big title for Europe or NA then someone else will come along to fill that void, hell that someone might even be Blizzard next year with a separate set of tournaments, but that isn't what WCS is, it isn't what it's designed to be.
Then with risk of sounding bad... Why the Hell call is WCS EU and WCS NA? Why not just have WCS GSL (Korea) and get it done with if the point is to find the best player in the world and not foster the regions? They can invite Naniwa and Scarlett to the challanger division. Anyone else who wanna compete can move to Korea and try their luck in the qualifiers.
If this is the goal and purpose of WCS then atleast have the decency to name it correctly and don't confuse us fans. I also think comparing the current WCS to superbowl is a very good comparison. Noone in the world outside of one country (the USA) cares about that event.
I'm not disagreeing with you that perhaps the regions could be named to something else more arbitrary like Auir, Char or Korhal (keeping with Starcraft theme.) and that it is a little confusing especially after last year's format.
However, I will say that you are absolutely dead wrong about your last sentence. This attitude of "if its dominated by Koreans then I'm not watching" is that of a vocal minority.
I personally will NEVER understand why the nationality of a player has any bearing whatsoever on whether or not a fan will support him. I don't get it. I don't get it in Sports, I don't get it in e-sports. I understand the attitude exists but this scene can and will survive without people that let that attitude dominate their thinking.
Will it shrink, perhaps, but it will survive.
It will shrink to Broodwar, the last years.
I do care about who is the best korean. I watch the GSL to see that. I just do not understand why you want to watch WCS AM/EU to see who is the best korean. If you want to see good koreans in your own time zone there is/was already Dreamhack and MLGs that sported this.
What differs us in who we choose to cheer for is that I like to feel somewhat connected to whom I cheer for. Naniwa for instance has grown up in the same country and same region of that country as me. I know what he must have gone through to get to where it is. This makes it much easier for me to sympatize with him and feel pride etc if he wins something than a korean which I have absolutely nothing in common with. I have no idea what his life must have been like and cannot imagine what challanges he has faced. This is normal in sports fans. This is why you typically root for your local team in sports and not for the team on the other side of the earth (unless you just wanna be different from your local friends). For me it's equally amazing to find that there apperently are people who have never felt this connection to their local comunity.
Only reason i watch WCS EU is to see whether some of our beloved foreigners can take out korean. It happens (*cough*Grubby*cough*), but it is rare. I watch WCS AM for players, whom i know can produce really good games or who are so hyped up, that i want to see how they'll do (*cough*Jim*cough*).
And with this I am to assume you did not watch WCS EU 2012 then since it held no koreans to defeat. Just poor games between europeans? If this isn't true and you watched it your point is mute.
Those games from WCS 2012 EU were pretty good, I don't know what you are talking about. People seem to have selective memories when it comes to non-Korean games and their quality.
On August 14 2013 11:35 jax1492 wrote: NA is not better than EU, Its Korea lite I agree but I still think EU was better.
Eh I'd split the difference personally.
The way I see it...NA's peak ability is higher than EU. Due to a mix of a couple of outstanding foreigners, great Koreans looking for an "easier" path and of course the extremely promising Chinese players.
But EU has on average better players. There are a lot more players who, whilst they might not be at the very top of the game, are more than capable of holding their own and taking games and series off Koreans.
Think about it this way: Scarlett has a good claim on "best foreigner in the world" right now. But there's only one Scarlett. Out of the rest of NA how many non-Koreans would you gamble on genuinely competing well against the Koreans? Two or three? Maybe?
On the other hand looking at WCS EU you've got LucifroN, VortiX, Naniwa, Grubby, TLO, etc etc. Quite a lot of players who compete well against Koreans.
In short: if everyone in NA and EU was competing in the same tournament then if you had to put money on it then the smart money would be that EU region representation would be higher, but an NA player would be more likely to win it.
Or in other words if I had to choose one region to put an entire team together from it'd be EU. But if I had to pick a star player I'd probably want to pick someone from NA.
AM have Scarlett.....Scarlett.....Scarlett...? AM have only one player that could hardly win merged EU/NA and her name is Scarlett. EU have like you said Naniwa, Lucifron, VortiX, Grubby, HasuObs and Welmu.
I don't get where you get your idea that NA player would most likely to win it
A word of advise, they are talking about people playing in the NA region, not players FROM NA... Hopefully that will solve your confusion.
On August 14 2013 23:21 Vindicare605 wrote: Look the WCS isn't designed to find the best player in Europe or North America. That isn't its goal. That was its goal last year but when they redid the system they changed what they were trying to do.
The WCS is designed now with the purpose of creating a Master's Tournament that crowns a global champion yearly. It's the World Cup, the Superbowl whatever you want to call it. It's the big prize that every player on the planet dreams of. The entire format they've currently developed is built with the purpose of building towards the finals at the end of the year. That's why there is no region locking, If there was region locking then the finals at the end of the year will just be a repeat of 2012 where the Koreans stomp on everyone that managed to get through the other regions and the eventual champion is whichever of the small number of lucky Koreans that made it through their own stacked tournament to get there.
Its completely anti-climactic and goes against what Blizzard is trying to do.
I feel for people that want a big tournament that focuses on finding the best player in Europe or NA but that IS NOT what the WCS is for, and people clamoring for Region Locking can't seem to grasp that what they want isn't what Blizzard wanted when they made WCS in the first place, the goals are not the same.
If the demand is there for a big region locked tournament that crowns the big title for Europe or NA then someone else will come along to fill that void, hell that someone might even be Blizzard next year with a separate set of tournaments, but that isn't what WCS is, it isn't what it's designed to be.
Then with risk of sounding bad... Why the Hell call is WCS EU and WCS NA? Why not just have WCS GSL (Korea) and get it done with if the point is to find the best player in the world and not foster the regions? They can invite Naniwa and Scarlett to the challanger division. Anyone else who wanna compete can move to Korea and try their luck in the qualifiers.
If this is the goal and purpose of WCS then atleast have the decency to name it correctly and don't confuse us fans. I also think comparing the current WCS to superbowl is a very good comparison. Noone in the world outside of one country (the USA) cares about that event.
I'm not disagreeing with you that perhaps the regions could be named to something else more arbitrary like Auir, Char or Korhal (keeping with Starcraft theme.) and that it is a little confusing especially after last year's format.
However, I will say that you are absolutely dead wrong about your last sentence. This attitude of "if its dominated by Koreans then I'm not watching" is that of a vocal minority.
I personally will NEVER understand why the nationality of a player has any bearing whatsoever on whether or not a fan will support him. I don't get it. I don't get it in Sports, I don't get it in e-sports. I understand the attitude exists but this scene can and will survive without people that let that attitude dominate their thinking.
Will it shrink, perhaps, but it will survive.
It will shrink to Broodwar, the last years.
I do care about who is the best korean. I watch the GSL to see that. I just do not understand why you want to watch WCS AM/EU to see who is the best korean. If you want to see good koreans in your own time zone there is/was already Dreamhack and MLGs that sported this.
What differs us in who we choose to cheer for is that I like to feel somewhat connected to whom I cheer for. Naniwa for instance has grown up in the same country and same region of that country as me. I know what he must have gone through to get to where it is. This makes it much easier for me to sympatize with him and feel pride etc if he wins something than a korean which I have absolutely nothing in common with. I have no idea what his life must have been like and cannot imagine what challanges he has faced. This is normal in sports fans. This is why you typically root for your local team in sports and not for the team on the other side of the earth (unless you just wanna be different from your local friends). For me it's equally amazing to find that there apperently are people who have never felt this connection to their local comunity.
Only reason i watch WCS EU is to see whether some of our beloved foreigners can take out korean. It happens (*cough*Grubby*cough*), but it is rare. I watch WCS AM for players, whom i know can produce really good games or who are so hyped up, that i want to see how they'll do (*cough*Jim*cough*).
And with this I am to assume you did not watch WCS EU 2012 then since it held no koreans to defeat. Just poor games between europeans? If this isn't true and you watched it your point is mute.
Those games from WCS 2012 EU were pretty good, I don't know what you are talking about. People seem to have selective memories when it comes to non-Korean games and their quality.
Why do you answer a question specifically asked to someone else with quotes?
On August 14 2013 23:21 Vindicare605 wrote: Look the WCS isn't designed to find the best player in Europe or North America. That isn't its goal. That was its goal last year but when they redid the system they changed what they were trying to do.
The WCS is designed now with the purpose of creating a Master's Tournament that crowns a global champion yearly. It's the World Cup, the Superbowl whatever you want to call it. It's the big prize that every player on the planet dreams of. The entire format they've currently developed is built with the purpose of building towards the finals at the end of the year. That's why there is no region locking, If there was region locking then the finals at the end of the year will just be a repeat of 2012 where the Koreans stomp on everyone that managed to get through the other regions and the eventual champion is whichever of the small number of lucky Koreans that made it through their own stacked tournament to get there.
Its completely anti-climactic and goes against what Blizzard is trying to do.
I feel for people that want a big tournament that focuses on finding the best player in Europe or NA but that IS NOT what the WCS is for, and people clamoring for Region Locking can't seem to grasp that what they want isn't what Blizzard wanted when they made WCS in the first place, the goals are not the same.
If the demand is there for a big region locked tournament that crowns the big title for Europe or NA then someone else will come along to fill that void, hell that someone might even be Blizzard next year with a separate set of tournaments, but that isn't what WCS is, it isn't what it's designed to be.
Then with risk of sounding bad... Why the Hell call is WCS EU and WCS NA? Why not just have WCS GSL (Korea) and get it done with if the point is to find the best player in the world and not foster the regions? They can invite Naniwa and Scarlett to the challanger division. Anyone else who wanna compete can move to Korea and try their luck in the qualifiers.
If this is the goal and purpose of WCS then atleast have the decency to name it correctly and don't confuse us fans. I also think comparing the current WCS to superbowl is a very good comparison. Noone in the world outside of one country (the USA) cares about that event.
I'm not disagreeing with you that perhaps the regions could be named to something else more arbitrary like Auir, Char or Korhal (keeping with Starcraft theme.) and that it is a little confusing especially after last year's format.
However, I will say that you are absolutely dead wrong about your last sentence. This attitude of "if its dominated by Koreans then I'm not watching" is that of a vocal minority.
I personally will NEVER understand why the nationality of a player has any bearing whatsoever on whether or not a fan will support him. I don't get it. I don't get it in Sports, I don't get it in e-sports. I understand the attitude exists but this scene can and will survive without people that let that attitude dominate their thinking.
Will it shrink, perhaps, but it will survive.
It will shrink to Broodwar, the last years.
I do care about who is the best korean. I watch the GSL to see that. I just do not understand why you want to watch WCS AM/EU to see who is the best korean. If you want to see good koreans in your own time zone there is/was already Dreamhack and MLGs that sported this.
What differs us in who we choose to cheer for is that I like to feel somewhat connected to whom I cheer for. Naniwa for instance has grown up in the same country and same region of that country as me. I know what he must have gone through to get to where it is. This makes it much easier for me to sympatize with him and feel pride etc if he wins something than a korean which I have absolutely nothing in common with. I have no idea what his life must have been like and cannot imagine what challanges he has faced. This is normal in sports fans. This is why you typically root for your local team in sports and not for the team on the other side of the earth (unless you just wanna be different from your local friends). For me it's equally amazing to find that there apperently are people who have never felt this connection to their local comunity.
Only reason i watch WCS EU is to see whether some of our beloved foreigners can take out korean. It happens (*cough*Grubby*cough*), but it is rare. I watch WCS AM for players, whom i know can produce really good games or who are so hyped up, that i want to see how they'll do (*cough*Jim*cough*).
And with this I am to assume you did not watch WCS EU 2012 then since it held no koreans to defeat. Just poor games between europeans? If this isn't true and you watched it your point is mute.
Those games from WCS 2012 EU were pretty good, I don't know what you are talking about. People seem to have selective memories when it comes to non-Korean games and their quality.
Why do you answer a question specifically asked to someone else with quotes?
No, just pointing out that they were not "Just poor games between europeans?", but some pretty quality matches.
On August 14 2013 22:39 opisska wrote: So, dear region-lockers, let me ask this way: Blizzard has already said that they would like to push the whole WCS eventually to be offline. Will that solve your problem?
Well it becomes alot less attractive for Koreans to participate in AM/EU, but it also becomes less attractive for Europeans/Americans to participate, which is why I don't think it will be a good idea.
Korea is a single country that is extremely centered around Seoul, pretty much everyone lives there. Europe and America are a bit more spread out, to put it very mildly. So I don't think doing everything there offline is currently a good idea.
But what if Koreans just move into US/Europe permanently and continue playing even completely offline? What will you require then - citizenship? Permanent residency? Or do you just want Blizzard to hire a team of antropologists to judge if the guy isn't too Korean to play?
Hahahahah what a funny joke you made!!1!! Just kidding, wasn't funny. Permanent residency is imo the best one. For example someone in Polts situation should be allowed to participate in AM.
The whole idea of region lock is absurd in the globalised world.
Yet despite what you would think with all the tennis examples brought into here, I dare to say the vast majority of the regular sports tournaments have region lock. Despite it being apparantly absurd.
Maybe it will work in US, because it is notoriously difficult to move there, but there is very little you can do in Europe to prevent all the Koreans to just become Europeans at almost any level barring actual citizenship. But do you really want nationalistic bureaocracy to be the deciding factor in esports competiton?
I consider it highly unlikely that would happen on a large scale.
And a last question: if you want a region lock, that means you are also OK with a region lock in Korea, right? No more foreigners in Korea and a completely closed scene like in late BW?
Would be fine for me, you still have WCS finals anyway, and of course tons of open tournaments.
On August 14 2013 23:21 Vindicare605 wrote: Look the WCS isn't designed to find the best player in Europe or North America. That isn't its goal. That was its goal last year but when they redid the system they changed what they were trying to do.
The WCS is designed now with the purpose of creating a Master's Tournament that crowns a global champion yearly. It's the World Cup, the Superbowl whatever you want to call it. It's the big prize that every player on the planet dreams of. The entire format they've currently developed is built with the purpose of building towards the finals at the end of the year. That's why there is no region locking, If there was region locking then the finals at the end of the year will just be a repeat of 2012 where the Koreans stomp on everyone that managed to get through the other regions and the eventual champion is whichever of the small number of lucky Koreans that made it through their own stacked tournament to get there.
Its completely anti-climactic and goes against what Blizzard is trying to do.
I feel for people that want a big tournament that focuses on finding the best player in Europe or NA but that IS NOT what the WCS is for, and people clamoring for Region Locking can't seem to grasp that what they want isn't what Blizzard wanted when they made WCS in the first place, the goals are not the same.
If the demand is there for a big region locked tournament that crowns the big title for Europe or NA then someone else will come along to fill that void, hell that someone might even be Blizzard next year with a separate set of tournaments, but that isn't what WCS is, it isn't what it's designed to be.
Then with risk of sounding bad... Why the Hell call is WCS EU and WCS NA? Why not just have WCS GSL (Korea) and get it done with if the point is to find the best player in the world and not foster the regions? They can invite Naniwa and Scarlett to the challanger division. Anyone else who wanna compete can move to Korea and try their luck in the qualifiers.
If this is the goal and purpose of WCS then atleast have the decency to name it correctly and don't confuse us fans. I also think comparing the current WCS to superbowl is a very good comparison. Noone in the world outside of one country (the USA) cares about that event.
I'm not disagreeing with you that perhaps the regions could be named to something else more arbitrary like Auir, Char or Korhal (keeping with Starcraft theme.) and that it is a little confusing especially after last year's format.
However, I will say that you are absolutely dead wrong about your last sentence. This attitude of "if its dominated by Koreans then I'm not watching" is that of a vocal minority.
I personally will NEVER understand why the nationality of a player has any bearing whatsoever on whether or not a fan will support him. I don't get it. I don't get it in Sports, I don't get it in e-sports. I understand the attitude exists but this scene can and will survive without people that let that attitude dominate their thinking.
Will it shrink, perhaps, but it will survive.
It will shrink to Broodwar, the last years.
I do care about who is the best korean. I watch the GSL to see that. I just do not understand why you want to watch WCS AM/EU to see who is the best korean. If you want to see good koreans in your own time zone there is/was already Dreamhack and MLGs that sported this.
What differs us in who we choose to cheer for is that I like to feel somewhat connected to whom I cheer for. Naniwa for instance has grown up in the same country and same region of that country as me. I know what he must have gone through to get to where it is. This makes it much easier for me to sympatize with him and feel pride etc if he wins something than a korean which I have absolutely nothing in common with. I have no idea what his life must have been like and cannot imagine what challanges he has faced. This is normal in sports fans. This is why you typically root for your local team in sports and not for the team on the other side of the earth (unless you just wanna be different from your local friends). For me it's equally amazing to find that there apperently are people who have never felt this connection to their local comunity.
Only reason i watch WCS EU is to see whether some of our beloved foreigners can take out korean. It happens (*cough*Grubby*cough*), but it is rare. I watch WCS AM for players, whom i know can produce really good games or who are so hyped up, that i want to see how they'll do (*cough*Jim*cough*).
And with this I am to assume you did not watch WCS EU 2012 then since it held no koreans to defeat. Just poor games between europeans? If this isn't true and you watched it your point is mute.
Those games from WCS 2012 EU were pretty good, I don't know what you are talking about. People seem to have selective memories when it comes to non-Korean games and their quality.
Why do you answer a question specifically asked to someone else with quotes?
No, just pointing out that they were not "Just poor games between europeans?", but some pretty quality matches.
On August 14 2013 23:55 VisonKai wrote: After that last game, I feel like the #1 thing Scarlett lacks is starsense and series control. Unfortunately, I think that's the hardest thing to develop for a Starcraft player.
Edit: They could work it with the angle of "we want to provide fans in all three regions the opportunity to see great games, that's why we're hosting them there, but they are all three normal tournaments which we will be renaming to X, Y, and Z". I would be cool with that.
She said it herself that she just didn't expect a 6 pool on that map, she had prepared for everything else.
Jaedong was just more experienced in that kind of situation, can't fault Scarlett for that at all.
Exactly what I mean. Once she develops the starsense to be able to predict things like that, she'll be great. She has a very solid playstyle but she loses due to bad series control/starsense a lot. I know I can't fault her for that, I'm just saying I think that's her major problem, not anything to do with how well she plays (though that's important too).
On August 14 2013 23:21 Vindicare605 wrote: Look the WCS isn't designed to find the best player in Europe or North America. That isn't its goal. That was its goal last year but when they redid the system they changed what they were trying to do.
The WCS is designed now with the purpose of creating a Master's Tournament that crowns a global champion yearly. It's the World Cup, the Superbowl whatever you want to call it. It's the big prize that every player on the planet dreams of. The entire format they've currently developed is built with the purpose of building towards the finals at the end of the year. That's why there is no region locking, If there was region locking then the finals at the end of the year will just be a repeat of 2012 where the Koreans stomp on everyone that managed to get through the other regions and the eventual champion is whichever of the small number of lucky Koreans that made it through their own stacked tournament to get there.
Its completely anti-climactic and goes against what Blizzard is trying to do.
I feel for people that want a big tournament that focuses on finding the best player in Europe or NA but that IS NOT what the WCS is for, and people clamoring for Region Locking can't seem to grasp that what they want isn't what Blizzard wanted when they made WCS in the first place, the goals are not the same.
If the demand is there for a big region locked tournament that crowns the big title for Europe or NA then someone else will come along to fill that void, hell that someone might even be Blizzard next year with a separate set of tournaments, but that isn't what WCS is, it isn't what it's designed to be.
Then with risk of sounding bad... Why the Hell call is WCS EU and WCS NA? Why not just have WCS GSL (Korea) and get it done with if the point is to find the best player in the world and not foster the regions? They can invite Naniwa and Scarlett to the challanger division. Anyone else who wanna compete can move to Korea and try their luck in the qualifiers.
If this is the goal and purpose of WCS then atleast have the decency to name it correctly and don't confuse us fans. I also think comparing the current WCS to superbowl is a very good comparison. Noone in the world outside of one country (the USA) cares about that event.
I'm not disagreeing with you that perhaps the regions could be named to something else more arbitrary like Auir, Char or Korhal (keeping with Starcraft theme.) and that it is a little confusing especially after last year's format.
However, I will say that you are absolutely dead wrong about your last sentence. This attitude of "if its dominated by Koreans then I'm not watching" is that of a vocal minority.
I personally will NEVER understand why the nationality of a player has any bearing whatsoever on whether or not a fan will support him. I don't get it. I don't get it in Sports, I don't get it in e-sports. I understand the attitude exists but this scene can and will survive without people that let that attitude dominate their thinking.
Will it shrink, perhaps, but it will survive.
It will shrink to Broodwar, the last years.
I do care about who is the best korean. I watch the GSL to see that. I just do not understand why you want to watch WCS AM/EU to see who is the best korean. If you want to see good koreans in your own time zone there is/was already Dreamhack and MLGs that sported this.
What differs us in who we choose to cheer for is that I like to feel somewhat connected to whom I cheer for. Naniwa for instance has grown up in the same country and same region of that country as me. I know what he must have gone through to get to where it is. This makes it much easier for me to sympatize with him and feel pride etc if he wins something than a korean which I have absolutely nothing in common with. I have no idea what his life must have been like and cannot imagine what challanges he has faced. This is normal in sports fans. This is why you typically root for your local team in sports and not for the team on the other side of the earth (unless you just wanna be different from your local friends). For me it's equally amazing to find that there apperently are people who have never felt this connection to their local comunity.
Only reason i watch WCS EU is to see whether some of our beloved foreigners can take out korean. It happens (*cough*Grubby*cough*), but it is rare. I watch WCS AM for players, whom i know can produce really good games or who are so hyped up, that i want to see how they'll do (*cough*Jim*cough*).
And with this I am to assume you did not watch WCS EU 2012 then since it held no koreans to defeat. Just poor games between europeans? If this isn't true and you watched it your point is mute.
To be fair , i only really got into watching SC2 once HotS came out. So no, i did not watch any of WCS 2012.
On August 14 2013 23:21 Vindicare605 wrote: Look the WCS isn't designed to find the best player in Europe or North America. That isn't its goal. That was its goal last year but when they redid the system they changed what they were trying to do.
The WCS is designed now with the purpose of creating a Master's Tournament that crowns a global champion yearly. It's the World Cup, the Superbowl whatever you want to call it. It's the big prize that every player on the planet dreams of. The entire format they've currently developed is built with the purpose of building towards the finals at the end of the year. That's why there is no region locking, If there was region locking then the finals at the end of the year will just be a repeat of 2012 where the Koreans stomp on everyone that managed to get through the other regions and the eventual champion is whichever of the small number of lucky Koreans that made it through their own stacked tournament to get there.
Its completely anti-climactic and goes against what Blizzard is trying to do.
I feel for people that want a big tournament that focuses on finding the best player in Europe or NA but that IS NOT what the WCS is for, and people clamoring for Region Locking can't seem to grasp that what they want isn't what Blizzard wanted when they made WCS in the first place, the goals are not the same.
If the demand is there for a big region locked tournament that crowns the big title for Europe or NA then someone else will come along to fill that void, hell that someone might even be Blizzard next year with a separate set of tournaments, but that isn't what WCS is, it isn't what it's designed to be.
Then with risk of sounding bad... Why the Hell call is WCS EU and WCS NA? Why not just have WCS GSL (Korea) and get it done with if the point is to find the best player in the world and not foster the regions? They can invite Naniwa and Scarlett to the challanger division. Anyone else who wanna compete can move to Korea and try their luck in the qualifiers.
If this is the goal and purpose of WCS then atleast have the decency to name it correctly and don't confuse us fans. I also think comparing the current WCS to superbowl is a very good comparison. Noone in the world outside of one country (the USA) cares about that event.
I'm not disagreeing with you that perhaps the regions could be named to something else more arbitrary like Auir, Char or Korhal (keeping with Starcraft theme.) and that it is a little confusing especially after last year's format.
However, I will say that you are absolutely dead wrong about your last sentence. This attitude of "if its dominated by Koreans then I'm not watching" is that of a vocal minority.
I personally will NEVER understand why the nationality of a player has any bearing whatsoever on whether or not a fan will support him. I don't get it. I don't get it in Sports, I don't get it in e-sports. I understand the attitude exists but this scene can and will survive without people that let that attitude dominate their thinking.
Will it shrink, perhaps, but it will survive.
It will shrink to Broodwar, the last years.
I do care about who is the best korean. I watch the GSL to see that. I just do not understand why you want to watch WCS AM/EU to see who is the best korean. If you want to see good koreans in your own time zone there is/was already Dreamhack and MLGs that sported this.
What differs us in who we choose to cheer for is that I like to feel somewhat connected to whom I cheer for. Naniwa for instance has grown up in the same country and same region of that country as me. I know what he must have gone through to get to where it is. This makes it much easier for me to sympatize with him and feel pride etc if he wins something than a korean which I have absolutely nothing in common with. I have no idea what his life must have been like and cannot imagine what challanges he has faced. This is normal in sports fans. This is why you typically root for your local team in sports and not for the team on the other side of the earth (unless you just wanna be different from your local friends). For me it's equally amazing to find that there apperently are people who have never felt this connection to their local comunity.
Only reason i watch WCS EU is to see whether some of our beloved foreigners can take out korean. It happens (*cough*Grubby*cough*), but it is rare. I watch WCS AM for players, whom i know can produce really good games or who are so hyped up, that i want to see how they'll do (*cough*Jim*cough*).
And with this I am to assume you did not watch WCS EU 2012 then since it held no koreans to defeat. Just poor games between europeans? If this isn't true and you watched it your point is mute.
To be fair , i only really got into watching SC2 once HotS came out. So no, i did not watch any of WCS 2012.
You are excused in this discussion then since you have nothing to compare with.
On August 15 2013 00:39 Plansix wrote: ^ I am rereading it right now to make sure. If I did, it is not 100% clear from the plain language of the text. I am going to need some more context.
At least unless I misunderstood it, I am fairly sure it was meant sarcastic: If it was true that without Koreans you cant have good games, then WCS EU 2012 should have been filled with horrible games.
On August 15 2013 00:39 Plansix wrote: ^ I am rereading it right now to make sure. If I did, it is not 100% clear from the plain language of the text. I am going to need some more context.
At least unless I misunderstood it, I am fairly sure it was meant sarcastic: If it was true that without Koreans you cant have good games, then WCS EU 2012 should have been filled with horrible games.
On August 15 2013 00:39 Plansix wrote: ^ I am rereading it right now to make sure. If I did, it is not 100% clear from the plain language of the text. I am going to need some more context.
At least unless I misunderstood it, I am fairly sure it was meant sarcastic: If it was true that without Koreans you cant have good games, then WCS EU 2012 should have been filled with horrible games.
It was ment to disprove anyone saying koreans is needed to make an interesting tournament. If you watched WCS 2012 then that statement simply isn't true. there where no koreans there and you watched it. The same people that state koreans are needed also usually state that games between none koreans are bad, that's why i added that reference. It turned out the poster I answered was new and didn't see anything 2012 however so it was a pretty failed asumption about him by me. It will be my go to answer however once someone post "I only watch the best players" standard answers.
On August 15 2013 00:39 Plansix wrote: ^ I am rereading it right now to make sure. If I did, it is not 100% clear from the plain language of the text. I am going to need some more context.
At least unless I misunderstood it, I am fairly sure it was meant sarcastic: If it was true that without Koreans you cant have good games, then WCS EU 2012 should have been filled with horrible games.
It was ment to disprove anyone saying koreans is needed to make an interesting tournament. If you watched WCS 2012 then that statement simply isn't true. there where no koreans there and you watched it. The same people that state koreans are needed also usually state that games between none koreans are bad, that's why i added that reference. It turned out the poster I answered was new and didn't see anything 2012 however so it was a pretty failed asumption about him by me. It will be my go to answer however once someone post "I only watch the best players" standard answers.
I hope that clears it up for you two
Ah, that does clear it up. I also get really tired of people saying over and over "I only want to watch the best, I don't watch events for "personality"." It gets really old. One of the best parts of TI3 was the human angle (and Puppy hitting on the interviewer) which roped in my girlfriend and other people who don't know shit about Dota 2. The story line is also a fun part of events and there is no reason we can't have a EU event and the best of the best in the GSL.
On August 14 2013 16:40 Shellshock1122 wrote: Oz and aLive are about on the same level as finale and he just won EU
EU is very match up dependant. PvT from Europe would give headache to lots of good players from Korea. That MVP dropped out wasn't a fluke, but Europe did show that their PvT is one of the best there is. Elfi beat TaeJa, MaNa and Socke beat countless Koreans. Its no fluke and has happened before.
Also PvP as Europe is fielding tons of good Protoss is also hard. Finale winning doesn't make him superior to anyone participating in the tournament. Especially because all his series were very close.
I still think it is a wrong statement to say that adding Oz and aLive to the field wouldn't increase the skill level in EU, which is what the guy said that I was responding to. There are several people in premier that I would rate them stronger than.
On August 14 2013 22:39 opisska wrote: So, dear region-lockers, let me ask this way: Blizzard has already said that they would like to push the whole WCS eventually to be offline. Will that solve your problem?
Well it becomes alot less attractive for Koreans to participate in AM/EU, but it also becomes less attractive for Europeans/Americans to participate, which is why I don't think it will be a good idea.
Korea is a single country that is extremely centered around Seoul, pretty much everyone lives there. Europe and America are a bit more spread out, to put it very mildly. So I don't think doing everything there offline is currently a good idea.
But what if Koreans just move into US/Europe permanently and continue playing even completely offline? What will you require then - citizenship? Permanent residency? Or do you just want Blizzard to hire a team of antropologists to judge if the guy isn't too Korean to play?
Hahahahah what a funny joke you made!!1!! Just kidding, wasn't funny. Permanent residency is imo the best one. For example someone in Polts situation should be allowed to participate in AM.
The whole idea of region lock is absurd in the globalised world.
Yet despite what you would think with all the tennis examples brought into here, I dare to say the vast majority of the regular sports tournaments have region lock. Despite it being apparantly absurd.
Maybe it will work in US, because it is notoriously difficult to move there, but there is very little you can do in Europe to prevent all the Koreans to just become Europeans at almost any level barring actual citizenship. But do you really want nationalistic bureaocracy to be the deciding factor in esports competiton?
I consider it highly unlikely that would happen on a large scale.
And a last question: if you want a region lock, that means you are also OK with a region lock in Korea, right? No more foreigners in Korea and a completely closed scene like in late BW?
Would be fine for me, you still have WCS finals anyway, and of course tons of open tournaments.
On August 14 2013 23:21 Vindicare605 wrote: Look the WCS isn't designed to find the best player in Europe or North America. That isn't its goal. That was its goal last year but when they redid the system they changed what they were trying to do.
The WCS is designed now with the purpose of creating a Master's Tournament that crowns a global champion yearly. It's the World Cup, the Superbowl whatever you want to call it. It's the big prize that every player on the planet dreams of. The entire format they've currently developed is built with the purpose of building towards the finals at the end of the year. That's why there is no region locking, If there was region locking then the finals at the end of the year will just be a repeat of 2012 where the Koreans stomp on everyone that managed to get through the other regions and the eventual champion is whichever of the small number of lucky Koreans that made it through their own stacked tournament to get there.
Its completely anti-climactic and goes against what Blizzard is trying to do.
I feel for people that want a big tournament that focuses on finding the best player in Europe or NA but that IS NOT what the WCS is for, and people clamoring for Region Locking can't seem to grasp that what they want isn't what Blizzard wanted when they made WCS in the first place, the goals are not the same.
If the demand is there for a big region locked tournament that crowns the big title for Europe or NA then someone else will come along to fill that void, hell that someone might even be Blizzard next year with a separate set of tournaments, but that isn't what WCS is, it isn't what it's designed to be.
Then with risk of sounding bad... Why the Hell call is WCS EU and WCS NA? Why not just have WCS GSL (Korea) and get it done with if the point is to find the best player in the world and not foster the regions? They can invite Naniwa and Scarlett to the challanger division. Anyone else who wanna compete can move to Korea and try their luck in the qualifiers.
If this is the goal and purpose of WCS then atleast have the decency to name it correctly and don't confuse us fans. I also think comparing the current WCS to superbowl is a very good comparison. Noone in the world outside of one country (the USA) cares about that event.
I'm not disagreeing with you that perhaps the regions could be named to something else more arbitrary like Auir, Char or Korhal (keeping with Starcraft theme.) and that it is a little confusing especially after last year's format.
However, I will say that you are absolutely dead wrong about your last sentence. This attitude of "if its dominated by Koreans then I'm not watching" is that of a vocal minority.
I personally will NEVER understand why the nationality of a player has any bearing whatsoever on whether or not a fan will support him. I don't get it. I don't get it in Sports, I don't get it in e-sports. I understand the attitude exists but this scene can and will survive without people that let that attitude dominate their thinking.
Will it shrink, perhaps, but it will survive.
It will shrink to Broodwar, the last years.
I do care about who is the best korean. I watch the GSL to see that. I just do not understand why you want to watch WCS AM/EU to see who is the best korean. If you want to see good koreans in your own time zone there is/was already Dreamhack and MLGs that sported this.
What differs us in who we choose to cheer for is that I like to feel somewhat connected to whom I cheer for. Naniwa for instance has grown up in the same country and same region of that country as me. I know what he must have gone through to get to where it is. This makes it much easier for me to sympatize with him and feel pride etc if he wins something than a korean which I have absolutely nothing in common with. I have no idea what his life must have been like and cannot imagine what challanges he has faced. This is normal in sports fans. This is why you typically root for your local team in sports and not for the team on the other side of the earth (unless you just wanna be different from your local friends). For me it's equally amazing to find that there apperently are people who have never felt this connection to their local comunity.
Only reason i watch WCS EU is to see whether some of our beloved foreigners can take out korean. It happens (*cough*Grubby*cough*), but it is rare. I watch WCS AM for players, whom i know can produce really good games or who are so hyped up, that i want to see how they'll do (*cough*Jim*cough*).
And with this I am to assume you did not watch WCS EU 2012 then since it held no koreans to defeat. Just poor games between europeans? If this isn't true and you watched it your point is mute.
Those games from WCS 2012 EU were pretty good, I don't know what you are talking about. People seem to have selective memories when it comes to non-Korean games and their quality.
Why do you answer a question specifically asked to someone else with quotes?
No, just pointing out that they were not "Just poor games between europeans?", but some pretty quality matches.
FYI you completely missed his point.
I would try to answer in the same structured way, because it is the best way for multiple threads in one conversation, but everytime I do that, I absolutely botch the quotes and can never fix them back. So I apologize for writting a summary answer, but I can't apparently do better.
The point about more offline WCS being bad even for EU/US players is a good one, but I am not sure that Blizzard is considering it, as the thing about more WCS offline is not from my head, but from Blizzard, they said it many times. If that happens, even local players would have to relocate, at least partially - do you realy think that it is that much easier for them than for Koreans - speaking about EU, obviously? I just do not share your opinion that a significant relocation of Koreans is unlikely - it is also good to remember, that it doesn't have to be a lot of people. There are currently not even a dozen Koreans in WCS EU, yet they have a pretty significant impact on it.
On the other hand, the ever-repeated argumentation by traditional sports is moot in my opinion and doesn't disprove my claim of absurdity. People just do a lot of absurd stuff, especially in areas that have a long traditon, because there you get a lot of inertia. And it wasn't really that absurd 30 years ago, when the world was a bunch of largely disconnected coutries. But now, we live in a world, where you can communicate and travel between any points on a whim - imposing these old-fashoined local restriction is just backwards thinking. If anything, shouldn't the esports, whose main demographics is young, bright, educated and technologically savvy people be as forwards as possible?
And if you wish to use classical sports as an example, look at football (soccer) - there are multiple limits on citizenshiup of the players that are just being easily bypassed by giving them the citizenship that is just needed, because there is enough money to push that. Is that really something we want to imitate?
But to me, the thing I feel strongest about is what I started in the paragraph before the previous one: I just hate when your .. anything depends on your passport. Yes, I know that there are a milion things that are like that, but why on Earth should esports be another contributor in the wrong direction?
On August 15 2013 00:39 Plansix wrote: ^ I am rereading it right now to make sure. If I did, it is not 100% clear from the plain language of the text. I am going to need some more context.
At least unless I misunderstood it, I am fairly sure it was meant sarcastic: If it was true that without Koreans you cant have good games, then WCS EU 2012 should have been filled with horrible games.
It was ment to disprove anyone saying koreans is needed to make an interesting tournament. If you watched WCS 2012 then that statement simply isn't true. there where no koreans there and you watched it. The same people that state koreans are needed also usually state that games between none koreans are bad, that's why i added that reference. It turned out the poster I answered was new and didn't see anything 2012 however so it was a pretty failed asumption about him by me. It will be my go to answer however once someone post "I only watch the best players" standard answers.
I hope that clears it up for you two
Ah, that does clear it up. I also get really tired of people saying over and over "I only want to watch the best, I don't watch events for "personality"." It gets really old. One of the best parts of TI3 was the human angle (and Puppy hitting on the interviewer) which roped in my girlfriend and other people who don't know shit about Dota 2. The story line is also a fun part of events and there is no reason we can't have a EU event and the best of the best in the GSL.
Agreed. There were so many fantastic storylines in TI3. My favorite apart from the Alliance and that last match of the finals was Team Liquid beating LGD.cn . I'm not even american and even I got touched by that. That kind of underdog story and fantastic sucess isn't possible if you don't allow some underdogs from different regions to actually be in the finals.
I can still hear the chants from the crowd "USA! USA! USA!" and see that moment of absolute bliss on the players when they realized they had eliminated LGD.cn and Bulbas crazy rush out to the audience.
That tournament was just hands down the best I have seen in Esports thus far and a shining beacon of how it should be done pointed at Blizzard/WCS.
On August 14 2013 22:39 opisska wrote: So, dear region-lockers, let me ask this way: Blizzard has already said that they would like to push the whole WCS eventually to be offline. Will that solve your problem?
Well it becomes alot less attractive for Koreans to participate in AM/EU, but it also becomes less attractive for Europeans/Americans to participate, which is why I don't think it will be a good idea.
Korea is a single country that is extremely centered around Seoul, pretty much everyone lives there. Europe and America are a bit more spread out, to put it very mildly. So I don't think doing everything there offline is currently a good idea.
But what if Koreans just move into US/Europe permanently and continue playing even completely offline? What will you require then - citizenship? Permanent residency? Or do you just want Blizzard to hire a team of antropologists to judge if the guy isn't too Korean to play?
Hahahahah what a funny joke you made!!1!! Just kidding, wasn't funny. Permanent residency is imo the best one. For example someone in Polts situation should be allowed to participate in AM.
The whole idea of region lock is absurd in the globalised world.
Yet despite what you would think with all the tennis examples brought into here, I dare to say the vast majority of the regular sports tournaments have region lock. Despite it being apparantly absurd.
Maybe it will work in US, because it is notoriously difficult to move there, but there is very little you can do in Europe to prevent all the Koreans to just become Europeans at almost any level barring actual citizenship. But do you really want nationalistic bureaocracy to be the deciding factor in esports competiton?
I consider it highly unlikely that would happen on a large scale.
And a last question: if you want a region lock, that means you are also OK with a region lock in Korea, right? No more foreigners in Korea and a completely closed scene like in late BW?
Would be fine for me, you still have WCS finals anyway, and of course tons of open tournaments.
On August 14 2013 23:21 Vindicare605 wrote: Look the WCS isn't designed to find the best player in Europe or North America. That isn't its goal. That was its goal last year but when they redid the system they changed what they were trying to do.
The WCS is designed now with the purpose of creating a Master's Tournament that crowns a global champion yearly. It's the World Cup, the Superbowl whatever you want to call it. It's the big prize that every player on the planet dreams of. The entire format they've currently developed is built with the purpose of building towards the finals at the end of the year. That's why there is no region locking, If there was region locking then the finals at the end of the year will just be a repeat of 2012 where the Koreans stomp on everyone that managed to get through the other regions and the eventual champion is whichever of the small number of lucky Koreans that made it through their own stacked tournament to get there.
Its completely anti-climactic and goes against what Blizzard is trying to do.
I feel for people that want a big tournament that focuses on finding the best player in Europe or NA but that IS NOT what the WCS is for, and people clamoring for Region Locking can't seem to grasp that what they want isn't what Blizzard wanted when they made WCS in the first place, the goals are not the same.
If the demand is there for a big region locked tournament that crowns the big title for Europe or NA then someone else will come along to fill that void, hell that someone might even be Blizzard next year with a separate set of tournaments, but that isn't what WCS is, it isn't what it's designed to be.
Then with risk of sounding bad... Why the Hell call is WCS EU and WCS NA? Why not just have WCS GSL (Korea) and get it done with if the point is to find the best player in the world and not foster the regions? They can invite Naniwa and Scarlett to the challanger division. Anyone else who wanna compete can move to Korea and try their luck in the qualifiers.
If this is the goal and purpose of WCS then atleast have the decency to name it correctly and don't confuse us fans. I also think comparing the current WCS to superbowl is a very good comparison. Noone in the world outside of one country (the USA) cares about that event.
I'm not disagreeing with you that perhaps the regions could be named to something else more arbitrary like Auir, Char or Korhal (keeping with Starcraft theme.) and that it is a little confusing especially after last year's format.
However, I will say that you are absolutely dead wrong about your last sentence. This attitude of "if its dominated by Koreans then I'm not watching" is that of a vocal minority.
I personally will NEVER understand why the nationality of a player has any bearing whatsoever on whether or not a fan will support him. I don't get it. I don't get it in Sports, I don't get it in e-sports. I understand the attitude exists but this scene can and will survive without people that let that attitude dominate their thinking.
Will it shrink, perhaps, but it will survive.
It will shrink to Broodwar, the last years.
I do care about who is the best korean. I watch the GSL to see that. I just do not understand why you want to watch WCS AM/EU to see who is the best korean. If you want to see good koreans in your own time zone there is/was already Dreamhack and MLGs that sported this.
What differs us in who we choose to cheer for is that I like to feel somewhat connected to whom I cheer for. Naniwa for instance has grown up in the same country and same region of that country as me. I know what he must have gone through to get to where it is. This makes it much easier for me to sympatize with him and feel pride etc if he wins something than a korean which I have absolutely nothing in common with. I have no idea what his life must have been like and cannot imagine what challanges he has faced. This is normal in sports fans. This is why you typically root for your local team in sports and not for the team on the other side of the earth (unless you just wanna be different from your local friends). For me it's equally amazing to find that there apperently are people who have never felt this connection to their local comunity.
Only reason i watch WCS EU is to see whether some of our beloved foreigners can take out korean. It happens (*cough*Grubby*cough*), but it is rare. I watch WCS AM for players, whom i know can produce really good games or who are so hyped up, that i want to see how they'll do (*cough*Jim*cough*).
And with this I am to assume you did not watch WCS EU 2012 then since it held no koreans to defeat. Just poor games between europeans? If this isn't true and you watched it your point is mute.
Those games from WCS 2012 EU were pretty good, I don't know what you are talking about. People seem to have selective memories when it comes to non-Korean games and their quality.
Why do you answer a question specifically asked to someone else with quotes?
No, just pointing out that they were not "Just poor games between europeans?", but some pretty quality matches.
FYI you completely missed his point.
i can't think of an individual sport on a decent scale that is region locked atm. they might be a few tho. It's absurd to compare starcraft to team sport when it's just an individual sport like tennis, golf or whatever (hint Gom Kor vs the world was exactly the replicate of the ryder cup) and teamleagues happen all the time in individual sport, the only difference is that ppl don't care about them if it's not a nation vs nation thing.
On August 15 2013 00:39 Plansix wrote: ^ I am rereading it right now to make sure. If I did, it is not 100% clear from the plain language of the text. I am going to need some more context.
At least unless I misunderstood it, I am fairly sure it was meant sarcastic: If it was true that without Koreans you cant have good games, then WCS EU 2012 should have been filled with horrible games.
It was ment to disprove anyone saying koreans is needed to make an interesting tournament. If you watched WCS 2012 then that statement simply isn't true. there where no koreans there and you watched it. The same people that state koreans are needed also usually state that games between none koreans are bad, that's why i added that reference. It turned out the poster I answered was new and didn't see anything 2012 however so it was a pretty failed asumption about him by me. It will be my go to answer however once someone post "I only watch the best players" standard answers.
I hope that clears it up for you two
Ah, that does clear it up. I also get really tired of people saying over and over "I only want to watch the best, I don't watch events for "personality"." It gets really old. One of the best parts of TI3 was the human angle (and Puppy hitting on the interviewer) which roped in my girlfriend and other people who don't know shit about Dota 2. The story line is also a fun part of events and there is no reason we can't have a EU event and the best of the best in the GSL.
Agreed. There were so many fantastic storylines in TI3. My favorite apart from the Alliance and that last match of the finals was Team Liquid beating LGD.cn . I'm not even american and even I got touched by that. That kind of underdog story and fantastic sucess isn't possible if you don't allow some underdogs from different regions to actually be in the finals.
I can still hear the chants from the crowd "USA! USA! USA!" and see that moment of absolute bliss on the players when they realized they had eliminated LGD.cn and Bulbas crazy rush out to the audience.
That tournament was just hands down the best I have seen in Esports thus far and a shining beacon of how it should be done pointed at Blizzard/WCS.
To be fair to WCS and Blizzard, the TI3 is a much more focused event than WCS. Its is a single week, run in Valves back yard, invite with a limited qualifers and run by their a professional production studio. It is amazing and awesome, but there is no way it could happen more than once a year.
WSC is a must longer term plan that has more moving parts across 3 regions, with entrenched companies in Korea who want to do things their way. I have high hopes for Blizzcon as being a huge event that will make us super excited about SC2.
On August 14 2013 22:39 opisska wrote: So, dear region-lockers, let me ask this way: Blizzard has already said that they would like to push the whole WCS eventually to be offline. Will that solve your problem?
Well it becomes alot less attractive for Koreans to participate in AM/EU, but it also becomes less attractive for Europeans/Americans to participate, which is why I don't think it will be a good idea.
Korea is a single country that is extremely centered around Seoul, pretty much everyone lives there. Europe and America are a bit more spread out, to put it very mildly. So I don't think doing everything there offline is currently a good idea.
But what if Koreans just move into US/Europe permanently and continue playing even completely offline? What will you require then - citizenship? Permanent residency? Or do you just want Blizzard to hire a team of antropologists to judge if the guy isn't too Korean to play?
Hahahahah what a funny joke you made!!1!! Just kidding, wasn't funny. Permanent residency is imo the best one. For example someone in Polts situation should be allowed to participate in AM.
The whole idea of region lock is absurd in the globalised world.
Yet despite what you would think with all the tennis examples brought into here, I dare to say the vast majority of the regular sports tournaments have region lock. Despite it being apparantly absurd.
Maybe it will work in US, because it is notoriously difficult to move there, but there is very little you can do in Europe to prevent all the Koreans to just become Europeans at almost any level barring actual citizenship. But do you really want nationalistic bureaocracy to be the deciding factor in esports competiton?
I consider it highly unlikely that would happen on a large scale.
And a last question: if you want a region lock, that means you are also OK with a region lock in Korea, right? No more foreigners in Korea and a completely closed scene like in late BW?
Would be fine for me, you still have WCS finals anyway, and of course tons of open tournaments.
On August 15 2013 00:35 Plansix wrote:
On August 15 2013 00:33 Ohforfsake wrote:
On August 15 2013 00:28 Plansix wrote:
On August 15 2013 00:25 Ohforfsake wrote:
On August 15 2013 00:10 lolfail9001 wrote:
On August 14 2013 23:56 Ohforfsake wrote:
On August 14 2013 23:40 Vindicare605 wrote:
On August 14 2013 23:32 Ohforfsake wrote: [quote]
Then with risk of sounding bad... Why the Hell call is WCS EU and WCS NA? Why not just have WCS GSL (Korea) and get it done with if the point is to find the best player in the world and not foster the regions? They can invite Naniwa and Scarlett to the challanger division. Anyone else who wanna compete can move to Korea and try their luck in the qualifiers.
If this is the goal and purpose of WCS then atleast have the decency to name it correctly and don't confuse us fans. I also think comparing the current WCS to superbowl is a very good comparison. Noone in the world outside of one country (the USA) cares about that event.
I'm not disagreeing with you that perhaps the regions could be named to something else more arbitrary like Auir, Char or Korhal (keeping with Starcraft theme.) and that it is a little confusing especially after last year's format.
However, I will say that you are absolutely dead wrong about your last sentence. This attitude of "if its dominated by Koreans then I'm not watching" is that of a vocal minority.
I personally will NEVER understand why the nationality of a player has any bearing whatsoever on whether or not a fan will support him. I don't get it. I don't get it in Sports, I don't get it in e-sports. I understand the attitude exists but this scene can and will survive without people that let that attitude dominate their thinking.
Will it shrink, perhaps, but it will survive.
It will shrink to Broodwar, the last years.
I do care about who is the best korean. I watch the GSL to see that. I just do not understand why you want to watch WCS AM/EU to see who is the best korean. If you want to see good koreans in your own time zone there is/was already Dreamhack and MLGs that sported this.
What differs us in who we choose to cheer for is that I like to feel somewhat connected to whom I cheer for. Naniwa for instance has grown up in the same country and same region of that country as me. I know what he must have gone through to get to where it is. This makes it much easier for me to sympatize with him and feel pride etc if he wins something than a korean which I have absolutely nothing in common with. I have no idea what his life must have been like and cannot imagine what challanges he has faced. This is normal in sports fans. This is why you typically root for your local team in sports and not for the team on the other side of the earth (unless you just wanna be different from your local friends). For me it's equally amazing to find that there apperently are people who have never felt this connection to their local comunity.
Only reason i watch WCS EU is to see whether some of our beloved foreigners can take out korean. It happens (*cough*Grubby*cough*), but it is rare. I watch WCS AM for players, whom i know can produce really good games or who are so hyped up, that i want to see how they'll do (*cough*Jim*cough*).
And with this I am to assume you did not watch WCS EU 2012 then since it held no koreans to defeat. Just poor games between europeans? If this isn't true and you watched it your point is mute.
Those games from WCS 2012 EU were pretty good, I don't know what you are talking about. People seem to have selective memories when it comes to non-Korean games and their quality.
Why do you answer a question specifically asked to someone else with quotes?
No, just pointing out that they were not "Just poor games between europeans?", but some pretty quality matches.
FYI you completely missed his point.
I would try to answer in the same structured way, because it is the best way for multiple threads in one conversation, but everytime I do that, I absolutely botch the quotes and can never fix them back. So I apologize for writting a summary answer, but I can't apparently do better.
The point about more offline WCS being bad even for EU/US players is a good one, but I am not sure that Blizzard is considering it, as the thing about more WCS offline is not from my head, but from Blizzard, they said it many times. If that happens, even local players would have to relocate, at least partially - do you realy think that it is that much easier for them than for Koreans - speaking about EU, obviously? I just do not share your opinion that a significant relocation of Koreans is unlikely - it is also good to remember, that it doesn't have to be a lot of people. There are currently not even a dozen Koreans in WCS EU, yet they have a pretty significant impact on it.
On the other hand, the ever-repeated argumentation by traditional sports is moot in my opinion and doesn't disprove my claim of absurdity. People just do a lot of absurd stuff, especially in areas that have a long traditon, because there you get a lot of inertia. And it wasn't really that absurd 30 years ago, when the world was a bunch of largely disconnected coutries. But now, we live in a world, where you can communicate and travel between any points on a whim - imposing these old-fashoined local restriction is just backwards thinking. If anything, shouldn't the esports, whose main demographics is young, bright, educated and technologically savvy people be as forwards as possible?
And if you wish to use classical sports as an example, look at football (soccer) - there are multiple limits on citizenshiup of the players that are just being easily bypassed by giving them the citizenship that is just needed, because there is enough money to push that. Is that really something we want to imitate?
But to me, the thing I feel strongest about is what I started in the paragraph before the previous one: I just hate when your .. anything depends on your passport. Yes, I know that there are a milion things that are like that, but why on Earth should esports be another contributor in the wrong direction?
You use bad examples from soccer. there are not that many nationality changes within the sport and the regulations governing it is very harsh. It isn't enought that you manage to change nationality, FIFA has to approve it as well. Most these nationality changes has happened after the player has lived 3-5 years in a country which follows normal citizen rules in most countries and therefore are tolerated by FIFA. There are some exceptions with money involved but none of those has had any greater impact on the international scene and therefore hasn't varented much of a response from FIFA.
Or to make this simpler. If your example had been true we would had seen spanish and brazilian players lining up most national teams in the world by now. This is not the case. All these brazilian players going to Europe because european football clubs pay better still competes for Barzil in the World Cup and Qualify through the South American qualifiers. The fact that they go to europe to play if they are good is a good thing because it raises the quality of the european league without diluting the quality of the World Cup. This could be something for blizzard to look at to copy but I still think it's better to look at individual sports for Sc2 and not team sports.
Btw, the problem you describe about nationality changes are much larger in sports like track and fields where theres actually real discussions right now if they are going to do something about it. The african athlets are fleeing africa.
As to your main point I guess it depends on what you want with a tournament called the World Cup. I would personally want it to be a tournament involving all the world where the best gamers in the different regions of the world meet and duke it out. Preferably in a system that will allow me to see who is the best player from each region as well (not the best korean in each region to make this absolutely clear). I believe that to generate interest all around the world you need to actually have local players from all around the world competing. Perhaps everyone cannot be in the grand finals but they should atleast have reasonable chanses to get there and atleast a few players from each region should get to that final after a regional championship.
As I have stated before this is connected to me actually feeling connected to local talant and understanding their lives etc unlike people from the other side of the world. I have explained this to you in an earlier post tho and you can just read back to it if you really wanna understand my view.
I still have gotten no answer to why you are so opposed to a regional tournament crowning the best player from a local region tho. Especially since you already have GSL, MLG, Dreamhack and a host of other tournaments to see the best players duke it out no matter nationality. Isn't that enough for you?
On August 14 2013 22:39 opisska wrote: So, dear region-lockers, let me ask this way: Blizzard has already said that they would like to push the whole WCS eventually to be offline. Will that solve your problem?
Well it becomes alot less attractive for Koreans to participate in AM/EU, but it also becomes less attractive for Europeans/Americans to participate, which is why I don't think it will be a good idea.
Korea is a single country that is extremely centered around Seoul, pretty much everyone lives there. Europe and America are a bit more spread out, to put it very mildly. So I don't think doing everything there offline is currently a good idea.
But what if Koreans just move into US/Europe permanently and continue playing even completely offline? What will you require then - citizenship? Permanent residency? Or do you just want Blizzard to hire a team of antropologists to judge if the guy isn't too Korean to play?
Hahahahah what a funny joke you made!!1!! Just kidding, wasn't funny. Permanent residency is imo the best one. For example someone in Polts situation should be allowed to participate in AM.
The whole idea of region lock is absurd in the globalised world.
Yet despite what you would think with all the tennis examples brought into here, I dare to say the vast majority of the regular sports tournaments have region lock. Despite it being apparantly absurd.
Maybe it will work in US, because it is notoriously difficult to move there, but there is very little you can do in Europe to prevent all the Koreans to just become Europeans at almost any level barring actual citizenship. But do you really want nationalistic bureaocracy to be the deciding factor in esports competiton?
I consider it highly unlikely that would happen on a large scale.
And a last question: if you want a region lock, that means you are also OK with a region lock in Korea, right? No more foreigners in Korea and a completely closed scene like in late BW?
Would be fine for me, you still have WCS finals anyway, and of course tons of open tournaments.
On August 15 2013 00:35 Plansix wrote:
On August 15 2013 00:33 Ohforfsake wrote:
On August 15 2013 00:28 Plansix wrote:
On August 15 2013 00:25 Ohforfsake wrote:
On August 15 2013 00:10 lolfail9001 wrote:
On August 14 2013 23:56 Ohforfsake wrote:
On August 14 2013 23:40 Vindicare605 wrote:
On August 14 2013 23:32 Ohforfsake wrote: [quote]
Then with risk of sounding bad... Why the Hell call is WCS EU and WCS NA? Why not just have WCS GSL (Korea) and get it done with if the point is to find the best player in the world and not foster the regions? They can invite Naniwa and Scarlett to the challanger division. Anyone else who wanna compete can move to Korea and try their luck in the qualifiers.
If this is the goal and purpose of WCS then atleast have the decency to name it correctly and don't confuse us fans. I also think comparing the current WCS to superbowl is a very good comparison. Noone in the world outside of one country (the USA) cares about that event.
I'm not disagreeing with you that perhaps the regions could be named to something else more arbitrary like Auir, Char or Korhal (keeping with Starcraft theme.) and that it is a little confusing especially after last year's format.
However, I will say that you are absolutely dead wrong about your last sentence. This attitude of "if its dominated by Koreans then I'm not watching" is that of a vocal minority.
I personally will NEVER understand why the nationality of a player has any bearing whatsoever on whether or not a fan will support him. I don't get it. I don't get it in Sports, I don't get it in e-sports. I understand the attitude exists but this scene can and will survive without people that let that attitude dominate their thinking.
Will it shrink, perhaps, but it will survive.
It will shrink to Broodwar, the last years.
I do care about who is the best korean. I watch the GSL to see that. I just do not understand why you want to watch WCS AM/EU to see who is the best korean. If you want to see good koreans in your own time zone there is/was already Dreamhack and MLGs that sported this.
What differs us in who we choose to cheer for is that I like to feel somewhat connected to whom I cheer for. Naniwa for instance has grown up in the same country and same region of that country as me. I know what he must have gone through to get to where it is. This makes it much easier for me to sympatize with him and feel pride etc if he wins something than a korean which I have absolutely nothing in common with. I have no idea what his life must have been like and cannot imagine what challanges he has faced. This is normal in sports fans. This is why you typically root for your local team in sports and not for the team on the other side of the earth (unless you just wanna be different from your local friends). For me it's equally amazing to find that there apperently are people who have never felt this connection to their local comunity.
Only reason i watch WCS EU is to see whether some of our beloved foreigners can take out korean. It happens (*cough*Grubby*cough*), but it is rare. I watch WCS AM for players, whom i know can produce really good games or who are so hyped up, that i want to see how they'll do (*cough*Jim*cough*).
And with this I am to assume you did not watch WCS EU 2012 then since it held no koreans to defeat. Just poor games between europeans? If this isn't true and you watched it your point is mute.
Those games from WCS 2012 EU were pretty good, I don't know what you are talking about. People seem to have selective memories when it comes to non-Korean games and their quality.
Why do you answer a question specifically asked to someone else with quotes?
No, just pointing out that they were not "Just poor games between europeans?", but some pretty quality matches.
FYI you completely missed his point.
i can't think of an individual sport on a decent scale that is region locked atm. they might be a few tho. It's absurd to compare starcraft to team sport when it's just an individual sport like tennis, golf or whatever (hint Gom Kor vs the world was exactly the replicate of the ryder cup) and teamleagues happen all the time in individual sport, the only difference is that ppl don't care about them if it's not a nation vs nation thing.
How many winter sports do you want me to list? How many summer sports? Every sport that is present in the olympics is region locked and that is the greatest tournament you can win in most sports. How about that? How many can you name that isn't region locked. (Even tennis is region locked in the olympics).
Even the seemingly open american sports are region locked. It's not like I as a Norwegian can just valtz in there and compete. Or like I can just form up a norwegian team and join. The only thing I can think of that isn't particularily region locked is MMA.
On August 15 2013 02:06 Ohforfsake wrote: I still have gotten no answer to why you are so opposed to a regional tournament crowning the best player from a local region tho. Especially since you already have GSL, MLG, Dreamhack and a host of other tournaments to see the best players duke it out no matter nationality. Isn't that enough for you?
I am not really opposed to the existence of such tournament - after all, everyone should be moreorless free to do any kind of tournament he wants to. But I won't probably watch it or support it, whereas I want to watch an support the WCS - it is the absolutely biggest thing in SC2, backed by Blizzard, thus with a pretty good shot on longevity. So I am opposed to the biggest and "official" tournament to being a regional tournament, imposing limits on players based on the passport they hold or other kinds of papers. Also, I don't want the WCS to be like that, becuse I am looking forward to the season finals and to the grand finals and I don't want to see one-sided stomps there. Honestly, I think it would be pretty cool if a foreigner could make a good run in some of the finals, just for the story, but I don't think that potential region-locking helps that in any way. Yes, we could get more players, but do you really see any player who is not able to beat the code B Koreans in current WCS EU/US to take a map from the code S ones?
On August 15 2013 02:06 Ohforfsake wrote: I still have gotten no answer to why you are so opposed to a regional tournament crowning the best player from a local region tho. Especially since you already have GSL, MLG, Dreamhack and a host of other tournaments to see the best players duke it out no matter nationality. Isn't that enough for you?
I am not really opposed to the existence of such tournament - after all, everyone should be moreorless free to do any kind of tournament he wants to. But I won't probably watch it or support it, whereas I want to watch an support the WCS - it is the absolutely biggest thing in SC2, backed by Blizzard, thus with a pretty good shot on longevity. So I am opposed to the biggest and "official" tournament to being a regional tournament, imposing limits on players based on the passport they hold or other kinds of papers. Also, I don't want the WCS to be like that, becuse I am looking forward to the season finals and to the grand finals and I don't want to see one-sided stomps there. Honestly, I think it would be pretty cool if a foreigner could make a good run in some of the finals, just for the story, but I don't think that potential region-locking helps that in any way. Yes, we could get more players, but do you really see any player who is not able to beat the code B Koreans in current WCS EU/US to take a map from the code S ones?
To answer yor question. No. But that is what makes the underdog story. And what makes it so fantastic when it happens. Do I really believe Trinidad Tobago will beat Spain in the FIFA World Cup? No. But it still makes for a fantastic story when it does happen. Or even if they take a point. And if these lesser nations were not allowed to qualify (lets face it, Trinidad Tobago would never qualify without a region lock) that storyline would never happen.
This is what you miss out on. The chanse for the most fantastic storylines and matches. Sc2 isn't protecting their leagues and stars well enough. The best players from different regions should not meet regularily. They should meet rarely to duke it out. That way you can build hype in each region for the next finals. Maybe that EU/AM player that went on a hot streak through the EU/AM qualifier can actually stand up to the koreans! We don't know until the world finals! Hype! Hype! In all regions! Then they clash and we get the resolution. Right now we pretty much know the answer long before the clash since they meet every week in different online and offline tournaments.
This I believe is the largest problems SC2 faces. And what holds it back right now. One way to deal with this is to region lock and seperate the regions to create the space and time for the Hype to build up. Another way is to do like boxing and have the managers realize that they should keep their stars from competeing too firecely and avoid too hard oponent to keep winning streaks going and set up that championship match and hype at a later stage. I prefer the first way.
I love how the western and eastern teams have almost no matches against each other in DOTA2 before the TI. This creates so much hype and speculation going into the tournament. And then you get to see the results from the tournament on who was king this year and who wasn't. And usually atleast a few upsets/surprises on the way (Team Liquid, Orange this year). I would love to see something simular in SC2. WCS EU last year was such a tournament since it had a long build up with local qualifiers (that saw some upsets) and then a unique tournament to finish it off (there was no other tornament sporting only the best of EU in a good production). The world finals was less interesting to me because I had already seen that tournament in MLGs, Dreamhacks etc throughout the year. There was nothing new or unique to peak my interest. It was mildly interesting to see how Staphano would do but since he had an abysmal tournament and dropt out to Idra in the group stages .. well, that was pretty much it for me in that tournament.
The season and world finals this year hold little interest to me. I have already seen who won GSL/OSL. If another one of the koreans manage to make it, it will only register as a somewhat interesting statistical point to me. There are no emotions invested and I feel nothing (the same can not be said for the finals of TI with Alliance and Navi duking it out).
On August 15 2013 02:06 Ohforfsake wrote: I still have gotten no answer to why you are so opposed to a regional tournament crowning the best player from a local region tho. Especially since you already have GSL, MLG, Dreamhack and a host of other tournaments to see the best players duke it out no matter nationality. Isn't that enough for you?
I am not really opposed to the existence of such tournament - after all, everyone should be moreorless free to do any kind of tournament he wants to. But I won't probably watch it or support it, whereas I want to watch an support the WCS - it is the absolutely biggest thing in SC2, backed by Blizzard, thus with a pretty good shot on longevity. So I am opposed to the biggest and "official" tournament to being a regional tournament, imposing limits on players based on the passport they hold or other kinds of papers. Also, I don't want the WCS to be like that, becuse I am looking forward to the season finals and to the grand finals and I don't want to see one-sided stomps there. Honestly, I think it would be pretty cool if a foreigner could make a good run in some of the finals, just for the story, but I don't think that potential region-locking helps that in any way. Yes, we could get more players, but do you really see any player who is not able to beat the code B Koreans in current WCS EU/US to take a map from the code S ones?
To answer yor question. No. But that is what makes the underdog story. And what makes it so fantastic when it happens. Do I really believe Trinidad Tobago will beat Spain in the FIFA World Cup? No. But it still makes for a fantastic story when it does happen. Or even if they take a point. And if these lesser nations were not allowed to qualify (lets face it, Trinidad Tobago would never qualify without a region lock) that storyline would never happen.
This is what you miss out on. The chanse for the most fantastic storylines and matches. Sc2 isn't protecting their leagues and stars well enough. The best players from different regions should not meet regularily. They should meet rarely to duke it out. That way you can build hype in each region for the next finals. Maybe that EU/AM player that went on a hot streak through the EU/AM qualifier can actually stand up to the koreans! We don't know until the world finals! Hype! Hype! In all regions! Then they clash and we get the resolution. Right now we pretty much know the answer long before the clash since they meet every week in different online and offline tournaments.
This I believe is the largest problems SC2 faces. And what holds it back right now. One way to deal with this is to region lock and seperate the regions to create the space and time for the Hype to build up. Another way is to do like boxing and have the managers realize that they should keep their stars from competeing too firecely and avoid too hard oponent to keep winning streaks going and set up that championship match and hype at a later stage. I prefer the first way.
I love how the western and eastern teams have almost no matches against each other in DOTA2 before the TI. This creates so much hype and speculation going into the tournament. And then you get to see the results from the tournament on who was king this year and who wasn't. And usually atleast a few upsets/surprises on the way (Team Liquid, Orange this year). I would love to see something simular in SC2. WCS EU last year was such a tournament since it had a long build up with local qualifiers (that saw some upsets) and then a unique tournament to finish it off (there was no other tornament sporting only the best of EU in a good production). The world finals was less interesting to me because I had already seen that tournament in MLGs, Dreamhacks etc throughout the year. There was nothing new or unique to peak my interest. It was mildly interesting to see how Staphano would do but since he had an abysmal tournament and dropt out to Idra in the group stages .. well, that was pretty much it for me in that tournament.
The season and world finals this year hold little interest to me. I have already seen who won GSL/OSL. If another one of the koreans manage to make it, it will only register as a somewhat interesting statistical point to me. There are no emotions invested and I feel nothing (the same can not be said for the finals of TI with Alliance and Navi duking it out).
See, you were not interested in BWC except for perfomance of Stephano, that ended up as it did. You were interested in WCS EU, and it is understandable. But that underdog story you talk about in this case does not exist. Simply because there are always BETTER Koreans, than ones we have to deal with in regular seasons of WCS EU and AM (but yeah, Polt and TaeJa duo is really, really good). This alone makes underdog story likelier to happen. + Show Spoiler +
Heavy off-topic:Also, what is wrong with me, i watched both Alliance and NaVi's games and felt they were lame and only casters shouting like it is apocalypse made it somewhat interesting for me (you know, why would they shout at all, as all i see is a team wipe). Then i watched iG vs DK and thought that innovation's tvz is more action packed (even though it is just innovation raping zerg after 10th minute without zerg fighting back in any way (as in actually getting agressive)).
On August 15 2013 11:35 jinorazi wrote: doesnt WCG count as a tournament where each region is represented by homegrown gamer?
and people have said the finals is very low skill level. so if wcs becomes wcg syle format...same result?
i wonder why wcg isnt so popular, people seem to prefer locked region
(tbh i dont remember the last wcg except for the first sc2 one casted by themarine, i assume there wasnt one since...bring it back!)
What if Blizzard instituted a rule saying each region must have a certain percentage of players from that region? Like WCS AM must have X% players from and/or currently living in North and South America, then have qualifiers for the other percent of non-American players? Then they could decide what to do with players from regions without WCS (SEA, etc.) afterwards, either put them with the in-region payers or out-of-region players.
Why they name it wcs America , Europe East ?? Where that basically Korean vs Korean ?? since when taeja and polt are americain ???
Unless American is now Korean they are something wrong here.... Was thinking this tournament was everyone from each country vs other country...
That basically Korean flying to another players country for own white dude then compete vs each other.... kinda lame They should rename it WCS for ''We Come Steal , your money america
wcs america , ho !!
after people dont understand why all foreigner will stop this game... got no tournament now because of this one....
On August 15 2013 02:06 Ohforfsake wrote: I still have gotten no answer to why you are so opposed to a regional tournament crowning the best player from a local region tho. Especially since you already have GSL, MLG, Dreamhack and a host of other tournaments to see the best players duke it out no matter nationality. Isn't that enough for you?
I am not really opposed to the existence of such tournament - after all, everyone should be moreorless free to do any kind of tournament he wants to. But I won't probably watch it or support it, whereas I want to watch an support the WCS - it is the absolutely biggest thing in SC2, backed by Blizzard, thus with a pretty good shot on longevity. So I am opposed to the biggest and "official" tournament to being a regional tournament, imposing limits on players based on the passport they hold or other kinds of papers. Also, I don't want the WCS to be like that, becuse I am looking forward to the season finals and to the grand finals and I don't want to see one-sided stomps there. Honestly, I think it would be pretty cool if a foreigner could make a good run in some of the finals, just for the story, but I don't think that potential region-locking helps that in any way. Yes, we could get more players, but do you really see any player who is not able to beat the code B Koreans in current WCS EU/US to take a map from the code S ones?
To answer yor question. No. But that is what makes the underdog story. And what makes it so fantastic when it happens. Do I really believe Trinidad Tobago will beat Spain in the FIFA World Cup? No. But it still makes for a fantastic story when it does happen. Or even if they take a point. And if these lesser nations were not allowed to qualify (lets face it, Trinidad Tobago would never qualify without a region lock) that storyline would never happen.
This is what you miss out on. The chanse for the most fantastic storylines and matches. Sc2 isn't protecting their leagues and stars well enough. The best players from different regions should not meet regularily. They should meet rarely to duke it out. That way you can build hype in each region for the next finals. Maybe that EU/AM player that went on a hot streak through the EU/AM qualifier can actually stand up to the koreans! We don't know until the world finals! Hype! Hype! In all regions! Then they clash and we get the resolution. Right now we pretty much know the answer long before the clash since they meet every week in different online and offline tournaments.
This I believe is the largest problems SC2 faces. And what holds it back right now. One way to deal with this is to region lock and seperate the regions to create the space and time for the Hype to build up. Another way is to do like boxing and have the managers realize that they should keep their stars from competeing too firecely and avoid too hard oponent to keep winning streaks going and set up that championship match and hype at a later stage. I prefer the first way.
I love how the western and eastern teams have almost no matches against each other in DOTA2 before the TI. This creates so much hype and speculation going into the tournament. And then you get to see the results from the tournament on who was king this year and who wasn't. And usually atleast a few upsets/surprises on the way (Team Liquid, Orange this year). I would love to see something simular in SC2. WCS EU last year was such a tournament since it had a long build up with local qualifiers (that saw some upsets) and then a unique tournament to finish it off (there was no other tornament sporting only the best of EU in a good production). The world finals was less interesting to me because I had already seen that tournament in MLGs, Dreamhacks etc throughout the year. There was nothing new or unique to peak my interest. It was mildly interesting to see how Staphano would do but since he had an abysmal tournament and dropt out to Idra in the group stages .. well, that was pretty much it for me in that tournament.
The season and world finals this year hold little interest to me. I have already seen who won GSL/OSL. If another one of the koreans manage to make it, it will only register as a somewhat interesting statistical point to me. There are no emotions invested and I feel nothing (the same can not be said for the finals of TI with Alliance and Navi duking it out).
See, you were not interested in BWC except for perfomance of Stephano, that ended up as it did. You were interested in WCS EU, and it is understandable. But that underdog story you talk about in this case does not exist. Simply because there are always BETTER Koreans, than ones we have to deal with in regular seasons of WCS EU and AM (but yeah, Polt and TaeJa duo is really, really good). This alone makes underdog story likelier to happen. + Show Spoiler +
Heavy off-topic:Also, what is wrong with me, i watched both Alliance and NaVi's games and felt they were lame and only casters shouting like it is apocalypse made it somewhat interesting for me (you know, why would they shout at all, as all i see is a team wipe). Then i watched iG vs DK and thought that innovation's tvz is more action packed (even though it is just innovation raping zerg after 10th minute without zerg fighting back in any way (as in actually getting agressive)).
This is just going in circles now. I get emotionally attached to players and cheer for them. You don't. You don't care about background stories etc (the so called storyline) and just want to see the best play no matter where they are from. They could probably have been presented as X vs Y or Red vs Blue to you with no face and you'd be happy. We are not the same. And I dare say you are not the norm of a sports fan. Blizzard is a company who wants this to grow as huge as possible, they will have to try and make people like me happy, or we (the majority) will go to another sport. I have already found one I am waiting a year to see again. I just feel it's sad that SC2 which I started to watch and from where I saw so many positive signs last year has decided to turn into a exclusive league with just koreans and the odd freakshow stomping of a foreigner (The korean stomping at the world finals are ok, but the stomping at EU/AM is not). Going into this year I did not believe this was the vision of WCS and I am disappointed to learn that it is. I take solice in the fact that I am not alone however. Any forums or discussion threads that have been linked here shows the same. A wast majority of people expressing their discust at the current system in those threads. Even this thread shows this same trend of responces. The majority of the unique posts on the subject here are expressing dissapointment over the system.
If a company like Blizzard want to ignore that sentiment among fans then they are ofcorse prefectly free to do so. But their fans will slowly trinkle off. Some to DOTA, some to LOL, some to whatever new game shows up and left will be the same old Broodwar people and a feeling of being back to square 1. This might be some of you fans out there's greatest wish but I'd be very surprised if Blizards business plan has this vision. As I said before, any time I feel like I wanna know who is the current korean top dog in each region I'll tune in. The last few months this havn't happened once. I have only watched WCS Korea (GSL) basically since this seems the only proper tournament left that holds a unique value. The rest I just read liquid news here afterwards and go "oh, jeadong failed another finals" (with about that much emotions invested).
Anyways, enough rambling about this. We'll prolly never look eye to eye on this anyways. The way the world is going right now you're future looks bright and you'll have a lot of koreans to watch and I'll just have just to look elsewhere to find a Esport with local affiliation.
On August 15 2013 12:04 quebecman77 wrote: Why they name it wcs America , Europe East ?? Where that basically Korean vs Korean ?? since when taeja and polt are americain ???
Unless American is now Korean they are something wrong here.... Was thinking this tournament was everyone from each country vs other country...
That basically Korean flying to another players country for own white dude then compete vs each other.... kinda lame They should rename it WCS for ''We Come Steal , your money america
wcs america , ho !!
after people dont understand why all foreigner will stop this game... got no tournament now because of this one....
Polt currently lives in and attends college in Texas.
On August 15 2013 12:04 quebecman77 wrote: Why they name it wcs America , Europe East ?? Where that basically Korean vs Korean ?? since when taeja and polt are americain ???
Unless American is now Korean they are something wrong here.... Was thinking this tournament was everyone from each country vs other country...
That basically Korean flying to another players country for own white dude then compete vs each other.... kinda lame They should rename it WCS for ''We Come Steal , your money america
wcs america , ho !!
after people dont understand why all foreigner will stop this game... got no tournament now because of this one....
Just for the reason it has America in it, doesn't mean its "YOUR" tournament. Not to mention not YOUR money. Its Blizzards money and I dare to say that is the problem of many players in NA. Koreans are not stealing your money, they are better and succeed while you fail and claim you would have any right to get a share of that money with the level you have.
NO. Check Scarlett, she makes deep runs and is a very good player. She gets her part of the money, because she's good and thats how it should be.
I dare to say Blizzards goal is to raise interest in SC2 and make sure people keep buying expansions. And I also dare to say making it Code A hosted in the US is not the way to go for them.
doesnt WCG count as a tournament where each region is represented by homegrown gamer?
and people have said the finals is very low skill level. so if wcs becomes wcg syle format...same result?
I can now type the name here of a random small tournament which isn't region locked and claim that is the end result of WCS if they don't region lock it. That makes as much sense as comparing WCG with a region locked WCS.
Why does koreans have less lag in american region than europe? Korea is geographically closer to europe than america, also there is an ocean between korea and america.
On August 15 2013 19:41 Naturedota wrote: Why does koreans have less lag in american region than europe? Korea is geographically closer to europe than america, also there is an ocean between korea and america.
Because there are better lines between NA and SEA than from the EU. It is not really about distance.
On August 15 2013 19:41 Naturedota wrote: Why does koreans have less lag in american region than europe? Korea is geographically closer to europe than america, also there is an ocean between korea and america.
They have ocean. Kr - eu have afganistan, kazakzstan....etc. depends how info would go.
I'd like to refute the last part about the American scene with something...anything...but what is there to say? Scarlett can't carry a scene by herself, and ROOT/EG isn't getting through that hell of a Challenger League unless they're invited through.
That seems to be a common theme lately. Either NA players are invited through the hellish Korean dominated everything to compete, or they're left out to dry ala MLG/IPL.
The article touched on this, but I feel like they skirted the issue. WCS Europe is the most popular despite a seemingly lesser field of talent as compared to WCSs Korea and Korea-Lite. The article blames it on a uniformly talented player pool, so games are chaotic when it comes to determining who will win.
However, I feel that an even larger component is that Europeans can get behind the players. The article basically hinted at that point, but refused to grab its proverbial balls, say "Yeah, we'll say it," and finally conclude that player level is trumped hands down by player accessibility and fan interaction. TI3 in Seattle proved that homefield favorites trump player skill (TL versus anyone).
Scarlett is the only major American pro left because there's nothing for the American pros to play. MLG left because they finally felt like admitting that they never actually cared about the NA scene that they promised for 3 years to support. IPL died a slow, painful death, and NASL is clawing its way back into things. There's the SC2L and Shoutcraft America, but those don't actually help the major problem of lack of a major NA scene.
With ROOT doing what the fuck ROOT is doing, EG's foreigner squad basically consisting of DeMuslim and Suppy now, TL's Americans either injured or going solo, and Complexity/Dignitas gone radio silent, do we even have enough American players to fill a Ro32?
And yes, I blame Blizzard/MLG for this. I blame them with every fiber of my being.
Fight on Scarlett, you crazy Canadian princess. Carry the NA flag while it crumbles around you.
On August 15 2013 19:41 Naturedota wrote: Why does koreans have less lag in american region than europe? Korea is geographically closer to europe than america, also there is an ocean between korea and america.
Because there are better lines between NA and SEA than from the EU. It is not really about distance.
What does australia have anything to do with korea-america connection?
It makes absolutely no sense to allow koreans, or anyone who is no living in the region, to take part in the competition in american region. Same applies to all regions, so koreans should be allowed to compete only in korea, and europeas only in europe etc. This way, whole region thing actually makes sense and promotes local scene.
On August 15 2013 21:04 Naturedota wrote: It makes absolutely no sense to allow koreans, or anyone who is no living in the region, to take part in the competition in american region. Same applies to all regions, so koreans should be allowed to compete only in korea, and europeas only in europe etc. This way, whole region thing actually makes sense and promotes local scene.
and then no one watches WCS America because there's not actually anyone good there.
Maybe they get better without koreans outright shutting down all competition there.
It is just nonsensical to have "regions" if anyone can play anywhere.
Btw, why do people talk about "offline" tournaments? There is no such thing as "offline" with SC2, since every game requires internet connection to the battle.net.
Why would they improve without competition? If they can win money without they will not do a thing. Human nature. It makes no sense to have a global final with scrubs in it.
The underdog stories you feel are so great are already present but not in global finals but in regionals. Now we have non Koreans in the global finals that earned their spot and are capable of upsetting Players yet they are still underdog stories so why do you keep complaining?
It was a side note which was not main argument against free region policy. Allowing everyone to compete everywhere defeats the purpose of region system at the first place, no matter how you look at it. Might aswell have no regions at all and call whole thing a "global qualifiers" or something like that.
And for that other sidenote about competition, it is generally better to compete against equally or just slightly better opponents to improve, than to encounter many tiers better player who completely smashes you. But on the other hand, tournaments are not place for practise so it doesnt really matter.
On August 15 2013 21:04 Naturedota wrote: It makes absolutely no sense to allow koreans, or anyone who is no living in the region, to take part in the competition in american region. Same applies to all regions, so koreans should be allowed to compete only in korea, and europeas only in europe etc. This way, whole region thing actually makes sense and promotes local scene.
and then no one watches WCS America because there's not actually anyone good there.
BS. Players don't have to be top 20 worldwide to have interesting matches. People will watch because they can root for their favourite players. And that happens alot more when there are 'local' players playing. With local in broadest sense since any player from the same continent would already be nice.
On August 15 2013 21:31 NarutO wrote: Why would they improve without competition? If they can win money without they will not do a thing. Human nature. It makes no sense to have a global final with scrubs in it.
The underdog stories you feel are so great are already present but not in global finals but in regionals. Now we have non Koreans in the global finals that earned their spot and are capable of upsetting Players yet they are still underdog stories so why do you keep complaining?
Ah without Koreans everyone in AM region gets loads of free money coming in? Then I can just also enter the tournament as low master player and get my free money? And I apparantly don't have to do a thing for it, I just get it.
But how exactly do you see this happening? Without Koreans they still have to play each other for the number 1 spot. Or to follow your logic: Currently they cannot win money while spending alot of time on it. Why would they do that when they cannot win money anyway?
I also disagree that you improve faster/better playing equally good or slightly better opponents compared to way superior players.
I disagree there. Getting stomped is generally not a good way to improve. And we still have for that we have plenty of open tournaments. Against opponents of similar/slightly better level you can consider what you did wrong. Against way superior opponents you wonder in the end wtf happened.
On August 15 2013 21:04 Naturedota wrote: It makes absolutely no sense to allow koreans, or anyone who is no living in the region, to take part in the competition in american region. Same applies to all regions, so koreans should be allowed to compete only in korea, and europeas only in europe etc. This way, whole region thing actually makes sense and promotes local scene.
and then no one watches WCS America because there's not actually anyone good there.
BS. Players don't have to be top 20 worldwide to have interesting matches. People will watch because they can root for their favourite players. And that happens alot more when there are 'local' players playing. With local in broadest sense since any player from the same continent would already be nice.
On August 15 2013 21:31 NarutO wrote: Why would they improve without competition? If they can win money without they will not do a thing. Human nature. It makes no sense to have a global final with scrubs in it.
The underdog stories you feel are so great are already present but not in global finals but in regionals. Now we have non Koreans in the global finals that earned their spot and are capable of upsetting Players yet they are still underdog stories so why do you keep complaining?
Ah without Koreans everyone in AM region gets loads of free money coming in? Then I can just also enter the tournament as low master player and get my free money? And I apparantly don't have to do a thing for it, I just get it.
But how exactly do you see this happening? Without Koreans they still have to play each other for the number 1 spot. Or to follow your logic: Currently they cannot win money while spending alot of time on it. Why would they do that when they cannot win money anyway?
I also disagree that you improve faster/better playing equally good or slightly better opponents compared to way superior players.
I disagree there. Getting stomped is generally not a good way to improve. And we still have for that we have plenty of open tournaments. Against opponents of similar/slightly better level you can consider what you did wrong. Against way superior opponents you wonder in the end wtf happened.
He's saying that if you play players of equal or slightly superior skill, you'll never be able to improve (nor will you have the need to) beyond that level. If you need arbitrary skill level X to win a WCS, there will be no point in striving for arbitrary skill level Y. It's human nature to do what's needed, not more.
But you cannot just improve from level 1 to 10, you need to improve to level 2 first, then 3 etc. And even without koreans, having to compete against other "less skilled than koreans", they would need to improve their own gameplay infinitely because people want to get through the qualifier. American player A beats B, hence B needs to get better than A to beat him next time, and then A needs to get better again etc.
"offline" portions of the tournament being in certain location, does not warrant "region" system. As it is now, WCS works as global qualifiers for the grand final.
On August 15 2013 21:04 Naturedota wrote: It makes absolutely no sense to allow koreans, or anyone who is no living in the region, to take part in the competition in american region. Same applies to all regions, so koreans should be allowed to compete only in korea, and europeas only in europe etc. This way, whole region thing actually makes sense and promotes local scene.
and then no one watches WCS America because there's not actually anyone good there.
BS. Players don't have to be top 20 worldwide to have interesting matches. People will watch because they can root for their favourite players. And that happens alot more when there are 'local' players playing. With local in broadest sense since any player from the same continent would already be nice.
On August 15 2013 21:31 NarutO wrote: Why would they improve without competition? If they can win money without they will not do a thing. Human nature. It makes no sense to have a global final with scrubs in it.
The underdog stories you feel are so great are already present but not in global finals but in regionals. Now we have non Koreans in the global finals that earned their spot and are capable of upsetting Players yet they are still underdog stories so why do you keep complaining?
Ah without Koreans everyone in AM region gets loads of free money coming in? Then I can just also enter the tournament as low master player and get my free money? And I apparantly don't have to do a thing for it, I just get it.
But how exactly do you see this happening? Without Koreans they still have to play each other for the number 1 spot. Or to follow your logic: Currently they cannot win money while spending alot of time on it. Why would they do that when they cannot win money anyway?
I also disagree that you improve faster/better playing equally good or slightly better opponents compared to way superior players.
I disagree there. Getting stomped is generally not a good way to improve. And we still have for that we have plenty of open tournaments. Against opponents of similar/slightly better level you can consider what you did wrong. Against way superior opponents you wonder in the end wtf happened.
He's saying that if you play players of equal or slightly superior skill, you'll never be able to improve (nor will you have the need to) beyond that level. If you need arbitrary skill level X to win a WCS, there will be no point in striving for arbitrary skill level Y. It's human nature to do what's needed, not more.
But where comes this idea from you need skill level X to win a WCS? There are still a whole bunch of Americans (and Chinese) who all want that number one spot. So getting to skill level X won't do it, since you opponents will try to do the same. You have to stay better than your opponents, so you have to keep striving to become better.
Otherwise you could also say code S players don't have the need to improve, since there aren't vastly superior players in code S they all win money without doing a thing for it?
On August 15 2013 19:41 Naturedota wrote: Why does koreans have less lag in american region than europe? Korea is geographically closer to europe than america, also there is an ocean between korea and america.
The ocean is why. The cables are lying on the ocean floor.
I am argueing your point. 1 month of TvZ practice with Hyun will get me further than 1 month of practice against the likes of me. You will learn to handle the same strategies faster, better etc. If you can defend Hyuns timing you will for the sake of it easily defend for example the timing of slivko which probably comes later and executed worse.
On August 15 2013 21:04 Naturedota wrote: It makes absolutely no sense to allow koreans, or anyone who is no living in the region, to take part in the competition in american region. Same applies to all regions, so koreans should be allowed to compete only in korea, and europeas only in europe etc. This way, whole region thing actually makes sense and promotes local scene.
and then no one watches WCS America because there's not actually anyone good there.
Well, it could work if you had like first hand coaching with Huyn and playing with him regularly every day. But if you just encounter him in the tournament, he just crushes you and you get nothing out of that match really.
The thing is that you dont even improve during tournaments, training happens during your training regimen.
On August 15 2013 22:07 Naturedota wrote: But there is still way larger distance from korea to america, than to europe.
Look at the density of the cables. Edit: Also, look how problematic (expensive) it is to lay cables between Europe and East Asia. Edit2: And actually, the longest cable lays between Germany and Japan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEA-ME-WE_3
On August 15 2013 22:22 RiZu wrote: I really hope Jaedong win WCS Season Final so that he can drop the name Jaekong. It probably the worst name ever lol, Jaedong fighting!
On August 15 2013 21:04 Naturedota wrote: It makes absolutely no sense to allow koreans, or anyone who is no living in the region, to take part in the competition in american region. Same applies to all regions, so koreans should be allowed to compete only in korea, and europeas only in europe etc. This way, whole region thing actually makes sense and promotes local scene.
and then no one watches WCS America because there's not actually anyone good there.
Scarlett, Goswser, State, Minigun?
I'm sorry but those are hardly big draws (at least for me). Talented, maybe, but they won't draw viewers. Or were you being sarcastic?
On August 15 2013 19:41 Naturedota wrote: Why does koreans have less lag in american region than europe? Korea is geographically closer to europe than america, also there is an ocean between korea and america.
The ocean is why. The cables are lying on the ocean floor.
That's a very interesting map, thanks for posting it.
On August 15 2013 21:04 Naturedota wrote: It makes absolutely no sense to allow koreans, or anyone who is no living in the region, to take part in the competition in american region. Same applies to all regions, so koreans should be allowed to compete only in korea, and europeas only in europe etc. This way, whole region thing actually makes sense and promotes local scene.
I agree with you. But if WCS was to follow your logic, they should balance the spots at the season finals by the skill level of players. WCS NA should get 2 spots (being generous) and WCS EU should get 2 spots, while Korea gets 12 spots. We want the best players at the Season Finals and we want the world's best players to be rewarded, therefore, WCS KR should be given the most spots. At any given moment, only two players from NA and EU can have a chance at beating a top 16 player in Korea. So yeah, if the Season Finals spots were allocated by skill then I'd be happy to oblige your complaints about regional exclusivity.
On August 15 2013 23:15 Naturedota wrote: I dont understand your post, please explain better.
If you want to lock everyone in their own region of residence, then you should realize that giving NA 6 spots would be stupid because the overall skill level in NA is much much lower than KR and we want only the best players in the world at the season finals. If you wanted Koreans and Chinese to only stay in the Asian region, then you should expect that most of the spots for the season finals should go to the Korean region.
On August 15 2013 21:04 Naturedota wrote: It makes absolutely no sense to allow koreans, or anyone who is no living in the region, to take part in the competition in american region. Same applies to all regions, so koreans should be allowed to compete only in korea, and europeas only in europe etc. This way, whole region thing actually makes sense and promotes local scene.
and then no one watches WCS America because there's not actually anyone good there.
Scarlett, Goswser, State, Minigun?
I'm sorry but those are hardly big draws (at least for me). Talented, maybe, but they won't draw viewers. Or were you being sarcastic?
Goswser - I guess RO4 at Dreamhack (almost beating HyuN), as well as wins against Stephano, Vortix, LucifroN and YugiOh aren't that impressive.
Scarlett - Probably the best foreigner in the world.
On August 15 2013 23:25 Naturedota wrote: I dont understand why should koreans have anymore spots in tournament. Everyone should be on equal footing.
Since Blizzard they made KR (traditionally GSL) prize money to reduced by halff ?? and if region locked and if it will divided prize money or points to be on equal regardless of skills level, then peoples should be thinking that American players are most advantageous players to make an Easy money and to get spots and chances to get crown since they have same mount of prize money and same spots but they are shitty. and peoples should say that Koreans and outside of EU, AM players are they have the most adverse conditions to make money and chances since KR is most hardest regions and it's limited to get spots.
this is one of dilemma at the current situations.
So, i have an idea to suggest something, make to all regions locking according to Citizenship. should be on equal footing in the first season of year, but prize money must be modified to next sesson according to the result of season final. if then basicly every players from own regions they have Equal opportunities to get a crown for every of the season finals so you can happy with you've get representatives of your contry or region as equal as other regions. BUT each regions should have take the prize money as long as their performance and skills level.
if WCS take this way?? This will increase competition and motivation a bunch more for all players from each regions since they need to make achievements and record for their scale of prize pool.
i would say that is Equitable society. all regions have The Equal opportunities and The distribution according to accomplishment.
On August 15 2013 23:25 Naturedota wrote: I dont understand why should koreans have anymore spots in tournament. Everyone should be on equal footing.
Since Blizzard they made KR (traditionally GSL) prize money to reduced by halff ??
That is incorrect. If you assume Koreans are better (which they are), then they will take a huge chunk of the season finals prizepool as well. That is basically 150k more for the taking, which makes the prizepool bigger than GSL.
Oh and except for 1st and 2nd place, the prizepool is basically the same as it were before.
On August 16 2013 01:15 Ballack wrote: Giving NA and EU 2 spots each is ludicrous. I'd be down with a NA-4, EU-4 and Korea-8 though.
We've already established that Blizzard wants a tournament a la Masters' Cup where the best come out on top and play in the Season Finals, not a regional tournament to promote local growth. The top 16 players in the world are all most likely Korean, and so giving Korea only 8 spots seems ludicrous. If WCS's purpose was to create free money for foreign players then yes, giving NA and EU 4 each would seem like a good deal. It's not, however, so cutting the best players' potential spots in half seems more ludicrous than anything.
On August 15 2013 23:25 Naturedota wrote: I dont understand why should koreans have anymore spots in tournament. Everyone should be on equal footing.
Since Blizzard they made KR (traditionally GSL) prize money to reduced by halff ??
That is incorrect. If you assume Koreans are better (which they are), then they will take a huge chunk of the season finals prizepool as well. That is basically 150k more for the taking, which makes the prizepool bigger than GSL.
Oh and except for 1st and 2nd place, the prizepool is basically the same as it were before.
SK won "GSL" and 20k in prize money. He then dropped out in the Ro4 at the Season Finals, bringing his total to $30.000, ~$20.000 less than he would have gotten had he won the GSL before that. It's a fact of life that progamers' typically do not win two premier Korean (we'll call the Season Finals Korean for the sake of the argument) tournaments in a row. Talking about total prize pool the average earned by a top-performing Korean (Innovation) will be higher, but for someone with a high peak but slightly lower average, they might (will probably) end up with less money in the pocket if they don't reach the Global Finals, a big if considering the competition across regions.
On August 15 2013 23:25 Naturedota wrote: I dont understand why should koreans have anymore spots in tournament. Everyone should be on equal footing.
Since Blizzard they made KR (traditionally GSL) prize money to reduced by halff ??
That is incorrect. If you assume Koreans are better (which they are), then they will take a huge chunk of the season finals prizepool as well. That is basically 150k more for the taking, which makes the prizepool bigger than GSL.
Oh and except for 1st and 2nd place, the prizepool is basically the same as it were before.
Well, I am talking to the local competition, season final is not only korea local competition, season final is the tournament for all regions Globally every players have chances to get good prize even if they have low skill level. so i suggested my idea that give equal spots by region locking and Changing the PrizePool of each regions according to accomplishment of the season final.
as you know most peoples point out about local competition.
On August 15 2013 23:25 Naturedota wrote: I dont understand why should koreans have anymore spots in tournament. Everyone should be on equal footing.
Not worth answering (since i won't get answer back), but for the sake of discussion: Because as of a fact: most of koreans are better than top foreigners.
On August 16 2013 01:15 Ballack wrote: Giving NA and EU 2 spots each is ludicrous. I'd be down with a NA-4, EU-4 and Korea-8 though.
We've already established that Blizzard wants a tournament a la Masters' Cup where the best come out on top and play in the Season Finals, not a regional tournament to promote local growth. The top 16 players in the world are all most likely Korean, and so giving Korea only 8 spots seems ludicrous. If WCS's purpose was to create free money for foreign players then yes, giving NA and EU 4 each would seem like a good deal. It's not, however, so cutting the best players' potential spots in half seems more ludicrous than anything.
I think you very wrongly assume Blizzard only wants to bring the 16 very best players in the world to Blizzcon, and they would be stupid to think in that matter. They should want the best of the foreigners attending Blizzcon for the better storyline, with stories of underdogs and crowd-favorites. Also, players like Polt who are living in USA would still be eligible to play in NA, and few would say he's not top 16 in the world with this weekends' performance, and people like MVP might very well have moved to Europe, making it not being cut in half. If you think Blizzard wants 16 Koreans at Blizzcon, you are out of your mind, as it would hurt viewership considerably.
On August 15 2013 23:25 Naturedota wrote: I dont understand why should koreans have anymore spots in tournament. Everyone should be on equal footing.
Since Blizzard they made KR (traditionally GSL) prize money to reduced by halff ??
That is incorrect. If you assume Koreans are better (which they are), then they will take a huge chunk of the season finals prizepool as well. That is basically 150k more for the taking, which makes the prizepool bigger than GSL.
Oh and except for 1st and 2nd place, the prizepool is basically the same as it were before.
SK won "GSL" and 20k in prize money. He then dropped out in the Ro4 at the Season Finals, bringing his total to $30.000, ~$20.000 less than he would have gotten had he won the GSL before that. It's a fact of life that progamers' typically do not win two premier Korean (we'll call the Season Finals Korean for the sake of the argument) tournaments in a row. Talking about total prize pool the average earned by a top-performing Korean (Innovation) will be higher, but for someone with a high peak but slightly lower average, they might (will probably) end up with less money in the pocket if they don't reach the Global Finals, a big if considering the competition across regions.
Ok so it didn't quite work out for one player, that doesn't automatically make you right, far from it actually. Having more games for more prizepool, deciding the best player should be something you support regarding your opinion on Blizzcon etc. So I don't really see how you can make a tougher competition but with TWICE the prizepool (125k for GSL season 1 2013 to 250k with WCS Korea and season 1 finals) into a bad thing. There is MORE money being distributed. You are making an absurd argument just because one single player ended up with a worse result.
Everyone else gained from it, and most of them gained considerable sums: Innovation 52k instead of 17k, Symbol 12k instead of 4.6k, sOs 27k instead of 4.6k, Roro 11k instead of 2.8k.
And this is not even counting if these players get to Blizzcon, and in any system suggested here, at the very least half of the players will be the best Koreans from WCS Korea. Korea has and would still gain IMMENSELY from the WCS system in any way you look at it, so god forbid we give some carrots to EU and NA so those regions still have a prominent scene. You people don't have a clue do you? ...
That is incorrect. If you assume Koreans are better (which they are), then they will take a huge chunk of the season finals prizepool as well. That is basically 150k more for the taking, which makes the prizepool bigger than GSL.
Oh and except for 1st and 2nd place, the prizepool is basically the same as it were before.
Well, I am talking to the local competition, season final is not only korea local competition, season final is the tournament for all regions Globally every players have chances to get good prize even if they have low skill level. so i suggested my idea that give equal spots by regions locked and Changing the PrizePool of each regions according to accomplishment of the season final.
as you know most peoples point out local competition.
Koreans still get's a bigger slice of the cake as they are better than EU and NA, by doing better in the season finals and getting more spots to go to Blizzcon. Take a look at the standings, currently, 14 of the 16 spots to Blizzcon is held by Koreans. The local scene in Korea is gaining from WCS regionals ALONE because the prize-pool is not as top-heavy as GSL code S was before. So Koreans naturally get's more money, which is deserved, but since that is a fact you don't need to lower the EU/NA prize-pool.
That is incorrect. If you assume Koreans are better (which they are), then they will take a huge chunk of the season finals prizepool as well. That is basically 150k more for the taking, which makes the prizepool bigger than GSL.
Oh and except for 1st and 2nd place, the prizepool is basically the same as it were before.
Well, I am talking to the local competition, season final is not only korea local competition, season final is the tournament for all regions Globally every players have chances to get good prize even if they have low skill level. so i suggested my idea that give equal spots by regions locked and Changing the PrizePool of each regions according to accomplishment of the season final.
as you know most peoples point out local competition.
Koreans still get's a bigger slice of the cake as they are better than EU and NA, by doing better in the season finals and getting more spots to go to Blizzcon. Take a look at the standings, currently, 14 of the 16 spots to Blizzcon is held by Koreans. The local scene in Korea is gaining from WCS regionals ALONE because the prize-pool is not as top-heavy as GSL code S was before. So Koreans naturally get's more money, which is deserved, but since that is a fact you don't need to lower the EU/NA prize-pool.
Well i didn't say about spots and i mentioned region locking to get equal spots, don't forget i just suggested prize money so every players from all regions have equal chances to get good spot and good money, i'd say better player deserves to get more money.
Well i didn't say about spots, don't forget i just suggested suggested prize money so every players from all regions have equal chances to get good spot and good money, as i'd say better player deserves to get more money.
You can probably defend that position and I don't fully disagree with that line of thinking. But I do think it is more important to revitalize the NA scene, and to do that you have to make WCS a proper carrot for players to commit fully to SC2. If the NA scene dies, viewership and I fear the game will crumble. Korea will have a prosperous scene for many years to come regardless. You can as Blizzard imo focus a bit more of their efforts to NA and EU players since Korea is totally dominating with the current system.
On August 15 2013 21:04 Naturedota wrote: It makes absolutely no sense to allow koreans, or anyone who is no living in the region, to take part in the competition in american region. Same applies to all regions, so koreans should be allowed to compete only in korea, and europeas only in europe etc. This way, whole region thing actually makes sense and promotes local scene.
and then no one watches WCS America because there's not actually anyone good there.
Scarlett, Goswser, State, Minigun?
I'm sorry but those are hardly big draws (at least for me). Talented, maybe, but they won't draw viewers. Or were you being sarcastic?
Goswser - I guess RO4 at Dreamhack (almost beating HyuN), as well as wins against Stephano, Vortix, LucifroN and YugiOh aren't that impressive.
Scarlett - Probably the best foreigner in the world.
These aren't big draws?
Nobody watched last year :/ And it was like whack-a-mole anyways; not a real competition
On August 15 2013 21:04 Naturedota wrote: It makes absolutely no sense to allow koreans, or anyone who is no living in the region, to take part in the competition in american region. Same applies to all regions, so koreans should be allowed to compete only in korea, and europeas only in europe etc. This way, whole region thing actually makes sense and promotes local scene.
and then no one watches WCS America because there's not actually anyone good there.
Scarlett, Goswser, State, Minigun?
I'm sorry but those are hardly big draws (at least for me). Talented, maybe, but they won't draw viewers. Or were you being sarcastic?
Goswser - I guess RO4 at Dreamhack (almost beating HyuN), as well as wins against Stephano, Vortix, LucifroN and YugiOh aren't that impressive.
Scarlett - Probably the best foreigner in the world.
These aren't big draws?
Nobody watched last year :/ And it was like whack-a-mole anyways; not a real competition
yep, WCS America with all Americans just doesn't work because we are all accustomed to watching good plays from Koreans and it hurts when you see less proficient players make questionable plays and bad micro.
WCS EU has live streams in English, French, Polish, Russian, Spanish and German. What players are they focusing on? People of their nationality / from their region of course. Why? Because the average Polish viewer wants to see MaNa, Nerchio, Tefel and all the other Polish players win or at least do well. I want to see Swedish players do well. If you end up with 8 Koreans in Ro8 in WCS EU, you might as well close the whole thing for most of the European viewers. I also want to see Snute and DeMusliM in WCS EU, because I can't follow WSC AM live, so pretty please, come home lads, visit your family just in time for WCS EU!
The occasionally connoisseur might love a scenario with top 8 Koreans only fighting it out in WSC EU, but let's be fair, if that happens over and over again, it will not be the future of Starcraft. Not in EU.
I don't know what the cure for the AM scene is, but I hardly think more Koreans competing in WCS AM is the long term solution there either. Look at what happened in the WCS AM qualifiers season 1 & 2. How is that kind of result going to encourage any kind of growth of the Starcraft scene in America? Maybe WSC AM needs to bring in a couple of big names for exhibition matches if a region lock comes, no harm in that. Another idea could be to invite Koreans for coaching sessions, using the nifty replay-and-get-back.into-the-fray function with upcoming AM talents (I'd probably buy the DVD the Boss Toss school of all-ins episode 1-12 myself, I could do with some advice for sure ), rather than unleashing the second best Koreans to stomp on them in the WSC AM qualification. I think some clever people better sit down and think hard about what can be done to ensure that Starcraft grows as a popular E-Sport, drawing lots and lots of spectators in both EU and AM. It could well be that the best way forward is not the same for the two regions given the apparent differences between them.
On August 14 2013 22:39 opisska wrote: So, dear region-lockers, let me ask this way: Blizzard has already said that they would like to push the whole WCS eventually to be offline. Will that solve your problem?
Well it becomes alot less attractive for Koreans to participate in AM/EU, but it also becomes less attractive for Europeans/Americans to participate, which is why I don't think it will be a good idea.
Korea is a single country that is extremely centered around Seoul, pretty much everyone lives there. Europe and America are a bit more spread out, to put it very mildly. So I don't think doing everything there offline is currently a good idea.
But what if Koreans just move into US/Europe permanently and continue playing even completely offline? What will you require then - citizenship? Permanent residency? Or do you just want Blizzard to hire a team of antropologists to judge if the guy isn't too Korean to play?
Hahahahah what a funny joke you made!!1!! Just kidding, wasn't funny. Permanent residency is imo the best one. For example someone in Polts situation should be allowed to participate in AM.
The whole idea of region lock is absurd in the globalised world.
Yet despite what you would think with all the tennis examples brought into here, I dare to say the vast majority of the regular sports tournaments have region lock. Despite it being apparantly absurd.
Maybe it will work in US, because it is notoriously difficult to move there, but there is very little you can do in Europe to prevent all the Koreans to just become Europeans at almost any level barring actual citizenship. But do you really want nationalistic bureaocracy to be the deciding factor in esports competiton?
I consider it highly unlikely that would happen on a large scale.
And a last question: if you want a region lock, that means you are also OK with a region lock in Korea, right? No more foreigners in Korea and a completely closed scene like in late BW?
Would be fine for me, you still have WCS finals anyway, and of course tons of open tournaments.
On August 15 2013 00:35 Plansix wrote:
On August 15 2013 00:33 Ohforfsake wrote:
On August 15 2013 00:28 Plansix wrote:
On August 15 2013 00:25 Ohforfsake wrote:
On August 15 2013 00:10 lolfail9001 wrote:
On August 14 2013 23:56 Ohforfsake wrote:
On August 14 2013 23:40 Vindicare605 wrote: [quote]
I'm not disagreeing with you that perhaps the regions could be named to something else more arbitrary like Auir, Char or Korhal (keeping with Starcraft theme.) and that it is a little confusing especially after last year's format.
However, I will say that you are absolutely dead wrong about your last sentence. This attitude of "if its dominated by Koreans then I'm not watching" is that of a vocal minority.
I personally will NEVER understand why the nationality of a player has any bearing whatsoever on whether or not a fan will support him. I don't get it. I don't get it in Sports, I don't get it in e-sports. I understand the attitude exists but this scene can and will survive without people that let that attitude dominate their thinking.
Will it shrink, perhaps, but it will survive.
It will shrink to Broodwar, the last years.
I do care about who is the best korean. I watch the GSL to see that. I just do not understand why you want to watch WCS AM/EU to see who is the best korean. If you want to see good koreans in your own time zone there is/was already Dreamhack and MLGs that sported this.
What differs us in who we choose to cheer for is that I like to feel somewhat connected to whom I cheer for. Naniwa for instance has grown up in the same country and same region of that country as me. I know what he must have gone through to get to where it is. This makes it much easier for me to sympatize with him and feel pride etc if he wins something than a korean which I have absolutely nothing in common with. I have no idea what his life must have been like and cannot imagine what challanges he has faced. This is normal in sports fans. This is why you typically root for your local team in sports and not for the team on the other side of the earth (unless you just wanna be different from your local friends). For me it's equally amazing to find that there apperently are people who have never felt this connection to their local comunity.
Only reason i watch WCS EU is to see whether some of our beloved foreigners can take out korean. It happens (*cough*Grubby*cough*), but it is rare. I watch WCS AM for players, whom i know can produce really good games or who are so hyped up, that i want to see how they'll do (*cough*Jim*cough*).
And with this I am to assume you did not watch WCS EU 2012 then since it held no koreans to defeat. Just poor games between europeans? If this isn't true and you watched it your point is mute.
Those games from WCS 2012 EU were pretty good, I don't know what you are talking about. People seem to have selective memories when it comes to non-Korean games and their quality.
Why do you answer a question specifically asked to someone else with quotes?
No, just pointing out that they were not "Just poor games between europeans?", but some pretty quality matches.
FYI you completely missed his point.
i can't think of an individual sport on a decent scale that is region locked atm. they might be a few tho. It's absurd to compare starcraft to team sport when it's just an individual sport like tennis, golf or whatever (hint Gom Kor vs the world was exactly the replicate of the ryder cup) and teamleagues happen all the time in individual sport, the only difference is that ppl don't care about them if it's not a nation vs nation thing.
How many winter sports do you want me to list? How many summer sports? Every sport that is present in the olympics is region locked and that is the greatest tournament you can win in most sports. How about that? How many can you name that isn't region locked. (Even tennis is region locked in the olympics).
Even the seemingly open american sports are region locked. It's not like I as a Norwegian can just valtz in there and compete. Or like I can just form up a norwegian team and join. The only thing I can think of that isn't particularily region locked is MMA.
the olympics are a stand alone event each 4y, which is wcg for sc2. regular winter sport season is open to everyone lol. WCS ain't the olympics if you didn't already notice...
This is getting ridiculous tbh. The vast majority of sports are region locked. And still for some reason those against region locks keep dragging normal sports into the discussion once they find one without region locks to shows how 'idiotic' it would be to have region locks. When told plenty of sports have region locks they start adding random demands on the sports to be considered. Team sports don't count. Olympics doesn't count. Next sports where you don't set in a chair behind a computer screen don't count...
Anyway sAsImre I would wish you good luck participating in the European Athletics Championship as non-European. (Wondering what the excuse will be why that one doesn't count). Or the European Championship Squash. Or the European Aquatics Championships. Yes there are some sports where the important tournaments have no region lock. I can think of for example tennis (which surprisingly always gets dragged into it by some people), marathon running, and road cycling (although that is debtable if you can still call it an individual sport). But there are also tons of individual sports where region locked tournaments are the norm.
On August 15 2013 21:04 Naturedota wrote: It makes absolutely no sense to allow koreans, or anyone who is no living in the region, to take part in the competition in american region. Same applies to all regions, so koreans should be allowed to compete only in korea, and europeas only in europe etc. This way, whole region thing actually makes sense and promotes local scene.
and then no one watches WCS America because there's not actually anyone good there.
Scarlett, Goswser, State, Minigun?
I'm sorry but those are hardly big draws (at least for me). Talented, maybe, but they won't draw viewers. Or were you being sarcastic?
Goswser - I guess RO4 at Dreamhack (almost beating HyuN), as well as wins against Stephano, Vortix, LucifroN and YugiOh aren't that impressive.
Scarlett - Probably the best foreigner in the world.
These aren't big draws?
Nobody watched last year :/ And it was like whack-a-mole anyways; not a real competition
yep, WCS America with all Americans just doesn't work because we are all accustomed to watching good plays from Koreans and it hurts when you see less proficient players make questionable plays and bad micro.
Yep thats also why so many more Europeans watch WCS KR than WCS EU. No one actually wants to watch the worse play in WCS EU, it just hurts. Oh wait...
Sorry but for the majority of viewers in general (so not just SC2, but any (e-)sports it is a big pre to watch people you can identify with, for example because they are from the some area as you are.
I don't want a region lock - I won't watch a single WCS NA game if there is a region lock as the players are so weak compared to the best. Right now it's very interesting to me with some great koreans such as Polt/Jaedong + the foreigner vs korean storyline!
The system is fine. Foreigners are getting better. Scarlett, Naniwa, Grubby, and a few others can go toe toe with mid to upper level Code S Koreans like Mvp, MC, MMA, and Jaedong. That's great. Maybe they can't beat Rain or Innovation yet, but that can change.
On August 16 2013 15:14 Sissors wrote: This is getting ridiculous tbh. The vast majority of sports are region locked. And still for some reason those against region locks keep dragging normal sports into the discussion once they find one without region locks to shows how 'idiotic' it would be to have region locks. When told plenty of sports have region locks they start adding random demands on the sports to be considered. Team sports don't count. Olympics doesn't count. Next sports where you don't set in a chair behind a computer screen don't count...
Anyway sAsImre I would wish you good luck participating in the European Athletics Championship as non-European. (Wondering what the excuse will be why that one doesn't count). Or the European Championship Squash. Or the European Aquatics Championships. Yes there are some sports where the important tournaments have no region lock. I can think of for example tennis (which surprisingly always gets dragged into it by some people), marathon running, and road cycling (although that is debtable if you can still call it an individual sport). But there are also tons of individual sports where region locked tournaments are the norm.
On August 15 2013 21:04 Naturedota wrote: It makes absolutely no sense to allow koreans, or anyone who is no living in the region, to take part in the competition in american region. Same applies to all regions, so koreans should be allowed to compete only in korea, and europeas only in europe etc. This way, whole region thing actually makes sense and promotes local scene.
and then no one watches WCS America because there's not actually anyone good there.
Scarlett, Goswser, State, Minigun?
I'm sorry but those are hardly big draws (at least for me). Talented, maybe, but they won't draw viewers. Or were you being sarcastic?
Goswser - I guess RO4 at Dreamhack (almost beating HyuN), as well as wins against Stephano, Vortix, LucifroN and YugiOh aren't that impressive.
Scarlett - Probably the best foreigner in the world.
These aren't big draws?
Nobody watched last year :/ And it was like whack-a-mole anyways; not a real competition
yep, WCS America with all Americans just doesn't work because we are all accustomed to watching good plays from Koreans and it hurts when you see less proficient players make questionable plays and bad micro.
Yep thats also why so many more Europeans watch WCS KR than WCS EU. No one actually wants to watch the worse play in WCS EU, it just hurts. Oh wait...
Sorry but for the majority of viewers in general (so not just SC2, but any (e-)sports it is a big pre to watch people you can identify with, for example because they are from the some area as you are.
I guess people watch the superbowl because they can relate to these 6'6" monsters with a rough childhood and immense talent? Region lock in most sports? I guess Basketball, Football, Baseball, Soccer, or Hockey doesn't count. lMFAO what a joke.
People like you are keeping eSports down as a joke competition for teenagers that got rejected by REAL sports.
On August 16 2013 15:14 Sissors wrote: This is getting ridiculous tbh. The vast majority of sports are region locked. And still for some reason those against region locks keep dragging normal sports into the discussion once they find one without region locks to shows how 'idiotic' it would be to have region locks. When told plenty of sports have region locks they start adding random demands on the sports to be considered. Team sports don't count. Olympics doesn't count. Next sports where you don't set in a chair behind a computer screen don't count...
Anyway sAsImre I would wish you good luck participating in the European Athletics Championship as non-European. (Wondering what the excuse will be why that one doesn't count). Or the European Championship Squash. Or the European Aquatics Championships. Yes there are some sports where the important tournaments have no region lock. I can think of for example tennis (which surprisingly always gets dragged into it by some people), marathon running, and road cycling (although that is debtable if you can still call it an individual sport). But there are also tons of individual sports where region locked tournaments are the norm.
On August 15 2013 21:04 Naturedota wrote: It makes absolutely no sense to allow koreans, or anyone who is no living in the region, to take part in the competition in american region. Same applies to all regions, so koreans should be allowed to compete only in korea, and europeas only in europe etc. This way, whole region thing actually makes sense and promotes local scene.
and then no one watches WCS America because there's not actually anyone good there.
Scarlett, Goswser, State, Minigun?
I'm sorry but those are hardly big draws (at least for me). Talented, maybe, but they won't draw viewers. Or were you being sarcastic?
Goswser - I guess RO4 at Dreamhack (almost beating HyuN), as well as wins against Stephano, Vortix, LucifroN and YugiOh aren't that impressive.
Scarlett - Probably the best foreigner in the world.
These aren't big draws?
Nobody watched last year :/ And it was like whack-a-mole anyways; not a real competition
yep, WCS America with all Americans just doesn't work because we are all accustomed to watching good plays from Koreans and it hurts when you see less proficient players make questionable plays and bad micro.
Yep thats also why so many more Europeans watch WCS KR than WCS EU. No one actually wants to watch the worse play in WCS EU, it just hurts. Oh wait...
Sorry but for the majority of viewers in general (so not just SC2, but any (e-)sports it is a big pre to watch people you can identify with, for example because they are from the some area as you are.
I'm from Europe and I don't care about WCS EU at all. Only bunch of sloppy foreigners and mediocre Koreans. WCS NA at least has some good Koreans.
On August 19 2013 00:09 Cattlecruiser wrote: I guess people watch the superbowl because they can relate to these 6'6" monsters with a rough childhood and immense talent? Region lock in most sports? I guess + Show Spoiler +
People like you are keeping eSports down as a joke competition for teenagers that got rejected by REAL sports.
Dunno about the other sports but soccer has a form of region locking whereby you have to have a certain amount of players from the country the club is from in your squad at any given time.
On August 19 2013 00:09 Cattlecruiser wrote: I guess people watch the superbowl because they can relate to these 6'6" monsters with a rough childhood and immense talent? Region lock in most sports? I guess + Show Spoiler +
People like you are keeping eSports down as a joke competition for teenagers that got rejected by REAL sports.
Dunno about the other sports but soccer has a form of region locking whereby you have to have a certain amount of players from the country the club is from in your squad at any given time.
O really? I thought since so many players from East Asia, Africa, and South America were given opportunities to play in the Premiere League it was an open competition. Even if it is a "region lock" it is rather giving opportunities for players outside of Europe to play in the Premiere League. It isn't like the lock is preventing Premiere teams from reaching their full potential by forcing them to not sign great players from abroad. I'm sure Neymar can come over when he chooses to.
European Hockey teams didn't force the American/Canadian players to stay locked out during the hockey lockout couple years back, they welcomed them to their league to bring the level of competition and bring more exposure to their players. NBA loves bringing over talented players from Europe, it increases their international exposure as well as bring a different "style" of basketball from overseas. Baseball has lots of South American, Japanese, and Korean players. Many of the best hitters are from Latin America and American fans have no problem cheering for players that can barely speak the language. NFL doesn't care about nationality at all, from Youtube sensations like Kickalicious to Olympians like Lawrence Okoye are all given chances to compete for a roster spot.
Go ahead and run to Dota 2 to get a break from Koreans dominating, it isn't like KeSPA teams can and will dominate the game if they choose to. Good luck working in the global economy, keep being bunch of xenophobic hate mongers and see how far you will go in life.
EG.Jaedong has joined a small, elite club of players. Alicia, Squirtle and Symbol are the only other players with three silvers but no gold, a feat arguably harder than winning an actual championship.
EG.Jaedong has joined a small, elite club of players. Alicia, Squirtle and Symbol are the only other players with three silvers but no gold, a feat arguably harder than winning an actual championship.
On August 16 2013 15:14 Sissors wrote: This is getting ridiculous tbh. The vast majority of sports are region locked. And still for some reason those against region locks keep dragging normal sports into the discussion once they find one without region locks to shows how 'idiotic' it would be to have region locks. When told plenty of sports have region locks they start adding random demands on the sports to be considered. Team sports don't count. Olympics doesn't count. Next sports where you don't set in a chair behind a computer screen don't count...
Anyway sAsImre I would wish you good luck participating in the European Athletics Championship as non-European. (Wondering what the excuse will be why that one doesn't count). Or the European Championship Squash. Or the European Aquatics Championships. Yes there are some sports where the important tournaments have no region lock. I can think of for example tennis (which surprisingly always gets dragged into it by some people), marathon running, and road cycling (although that is debtable if you can still call it an individual sport). But there are also tons of individual sports where region locked tournaments are the norm.
On August 16 2013 04:04 gobbledydook wrote:
On August 16 2013 03:53 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:
On August 15 2013 23:24 Crownlol wrote:
On August 15 2013 22:57 e4e5nf3 wrote:
On August 15 2013 22:11 Crownlol wrote:
On August 15 2013 21:24 gobbledydook wrote:
On August 15 2013 21:04 Naturedota wrote: It makes absolutely no sense to allow koreans, or anyone who is no living in the region, to take part in the competition in american region. Same applies to all regions, so koreans should be allowed to compete only in korea, and europeas only in europe etc. This way, whole region thing actually makes sense and promotes local scene.
and then no one watches WCS America because there's not actually anyone good there.
Scarlett, Goswser, State, Minigun?
I'm sorry but those are hardly big draws (at least for me). Talented, maybe, but they won't draw viewers. Or were you being sarcastic?
Goswser - I guess RO4 at Dreamhack (almost beating HyuN), as well as wins against Stephano, Vortix, LucifroN and YugiOh aren't that impressive.
Scarlett - Probably the best foreigner in the world.
These aren't big draws?
Nobody watched last year :/ And it was like whack-a-mole anyways; not a real competition
yep, WCS America with all Americans just doesn't work because we are all accustomed to watching good plays from Koreans and it hurts when you see less proficient players make questionable plays and bad micro.
Yep thats also why so many more Europeans watch WCS KR than WCS EU. No one actually wants to watch the worse play in WCS EU, it just hurts. Oh wait...
Sorry but for the majority of viewers in general (so not just SC2, but any (e-)sports it is a big pre to watch people you can identify with, for example because they are from the some area as you are.
I guess people watch the superbowl because they can relate to these 6'6" monsters with a rough childhood and immense talent? Region lock in most sports? I guess Basketball, Football, Baseball, Soccer, or Hockey doesn't count. lMFAO what a joke.
People like you are keeping eSports down as a joke competition for teenagers that got rejected by REAL sports.
IMO, Europeans tend to be the most provincial when it comes to sports. WCS EU attracts a lot of viewers but what works for WCS EU won't work for WCS NA. It's just a different culture.
Case in point, NBA players who visit Asia get treated like gods by the locals, especially in places like China and the Philippines. They are way bigger than the local stars these countries have. Aside from the 1992 Dream Team in Barcelona, that just doesn't happen in Europe. But in Asia, individual visit by players, even just to promote some sneakers, generate huge crowds.
Region locking by residence for WCS would be a good thing as that would produce the FA cup type narrative I think blizz wanted to achieve with WCS. Having the top tier of players in a region being almost exclusively Korean just shunts everyone else down a prestige level. The season finals should be a competitive kick-about between the best in the regions for WCS points.
The grand finals is when you should get to see the truly world class play (just once a year), and even if due to any hypothetical region locking you only got 8 Koreans, the Ro8 onwards would still be the best of the best.
EPT
CMStorm_Polt and 
EG.Jaedong 4 - 0 in the finals following a closely contested semi-final battle against Taeja.![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Waxangel/WCS2013/America_1/brosbeforehellbats.jpg)
MacSed was the only other player in WCS AM who took even a MAP off the duo, winning a thrilling base race against TaeJa in the quarter-finals. Other than that, TaeJa and Polt only lost to each other, with Polt winning 2 - 1 in series and 6 - 4 on maps. While it's hard to expect the same level of domination next season, especially with players like Hack, HyuN, and ByuL potentially joining the fray, you have to give credit where credit is due: Polt and TaeJa crushed the competition in season 2.![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Waxangel/WCS2013/America_1/wcsamfinalsbracket.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Waxangel/WCS2013/America_1/jimacsed.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Waxangel/WCS2013/America_1/hahaeurope.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Waxangel/WCS2013/America_1/scarlettpickneat.jpg)
good read, thank you
![[image loading]](http://board.fi.ogame.org/wcf/images/smilies/pillepalle.gif)
![[image loading]](http://www.thedaytradingacademy.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/World-Underwater-Sea-Cables.gif)
