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On August 15 2013 00:19 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 23:40 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 14 2013 23:32 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 23:21 Vindicare605 wrote:
Look the WCS isn't designed to find the best player in Europe or North America. That isn't its goal. That was its goal last year but when they redid the system they changed what they were trying to do.
The WCS is designed now with the purpose of creating a Master's Tournament that crowns a global champion yearly. It's the World Cup, the Superbowl whatever you want to call it. It's the big prize that every player on the planet dreams of. The entire format they've currently developed is built with the purpose of building towards the finals at the end of the year. That's why there is no region locking, If there was region locking then the finals at the end of the year will just be a repeat of 2012 where the Koreans stomp on everyone that managed to get through the other regions and the eventual champion is whichever of the small number of lucky Koreans that made it through their own stacked tournament to get there.
Its completely anti-climactic and goes against what Blizzard is trying to do.
I feel for people that want a big tournament that focuses on finding the best player in Europe or NA but that IS NOT what the WCS is for, and people clamoring for Region Locking can't seem to grasp that what they want isn't what Blizzard wanted when they made WCS in the first place, the goals are not the same.
If the demand is there for a big region locked tournament that crowns the big title for Europe or NA then someone else will come along to fill that void, hell that someone might even be Blizzard next year with a separate set of tournaments, but that isn't what WCS is, it isn't what it's designed to be. Then with risk of sounding bad... Why the Hell call is WCS EU and WCS NA? Why not just have WCS GSL (Korea) and get it done with if the point is to find the best player in the world and not foster the regions? They can invite Naniwa and Scarlett to the challanger division. Anyone else who wanna compete can move to Korea and try their luck in the qualifiers. If this is the goal and purpose of WCS then atleast have the decency to name it correctly and don't confuse us fans. I also think comparing the current WCS to superbowl is a very good comparison. Noone in the world outside of one country (the USA) cares about that event. I'm not disagreeing with you that perhaps the regions could be named to something else more arbitrary like Auir, Char or Korhal (keeping with Starcraft theme.) and that it is a little confusing especially after last year's format. However, I will say that you are absolutely dead wrong about your last sentence. This attitude of "if its dominated by Koreans then I'm not watching" is that of a vocal minority. I personally will NEVER understand why the nationality of a player has any bearing whatsoever on whether or not a fan will support him. I don't get it. I don't get it in Sports, I don't get it in e-sports. I understand the attitude exists but this scene can and will survive without people that let that attitude dominate their thinking. Will it shrink, perhaps, but it will survive. Maybe you aren't proud of your country. Why I cheer for player that I cheer for? Why I watch tournaments that I watch? Players that I cheer for: Nationality (1st Finnish, 2th Nordic, 3rd European, 4th Foreign, 5th Korean) So I cheer Finnish player vs swe/nor/den player. But if there isnt finnish player then in most cases I cheer for swe/nor/den vs european(non nordic). But ALWAYS I cheer for foreign vs korean. Personality (Funny/Entertaining<--->BM/rage) (good<---->bad) So players that I cheer for. Welmu, elfi, Fuzer, Naama, Protosser---> every finnish player. We have so less finnish players that basically being finnish is same as being in same team. Grubby, Naniwa, TLO, Stephano.... I don't cheer for any korean player coz there is nothing to cheer for. Or should I cheer for translator coz he is speaking to us? Lvl of gameplay comes after this. So I only watch tournaments where are my favorite players and try to catch their games. omg, that's so bad said. I have to write this again sometime with better english so somebody could understand this. Even I dont understand this perfectly :D I have idea in brains but hard to write in english 
See I don't associate national pride with who I cheer for in an E-Sport.
I watch Starcraft because I love watching Starcraft, there doesn't need to be anyone from my country competing for me to have an investment in it, I watch because I love the game. If there's someone competing from my hometown then cool, but it isn't necessary for me to care who wins and who loses.
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On August 15 2013 00:25 Ohforfsake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 00:10 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 14 2013 23:56 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 23:40 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 14 2013 23:32 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 23:21 Vindicare605 wrote:
Look the WCS isn't designed to find the best player in Europe or North America. That isn't its goal. That was its goal last year but when they redid the system they changed what they were trying to do.
The WCS is designed now with the purpose of creating a Master's Tournament that crowns a global champion yearly. It's the World Cup, the Superbowl whatever you want to call it. It's the big prize that every player on the planet dreams of. The entire format they've currently developed is built with the purpose of building towards the finals at the end of the year. That's why there is no region locking, If there was region locking then the finals at the end of the year will just be a repeat of 2012 where the Koreans stomp on everyone that managed to get through the other regions and the eventual champion is whichever of the small number of lucky Koreans that made it through their own stacked tournament to get there.
Its completely anti-climactic and goes against what Blizzard is trying to do.
I feel for people that want a big tournament that focuses on finding the best player in Europe or NA but that IS NOT what the WCS is for, and people clamoring for Region Locking can't seem to grasp that what they want isn't what Blizzard wanted when they made WCS in the first place, the goals are not the same.
If the demand is there for a big region locked tournament that crowns the big title for Europe or NA then someone else will come along to fill that void, hell that someone might even be Blizzard next year with a separate set of tournaments, but that isn't what WCS is, it isn't what it's designed to be. Then with risk of sounding bad... Why the Hell call is WCS EU and WCS NA? Why not just have WCS GSL (Korea) and get it done with if the point is to find the best player in the world and not foster the regions? They can invite Naniwa and Scarlett to the challanger division. Anyone else who wanna compete can move to Korea and try their luck in the qualifiers. If this is the goal and purpose of WCS then atleast have the decency to name it correctly and don't confuse us fans. I also think comparing the current WCS to superbowl is a very good comparison. Noone in the world outside of one country (the USA) cares about that event. I'm not disagreeing with you that perhaps the regions could be named to something else more arbitrary like Auir, Char or Korhal (keeping with Starcraft theme.) and that it is a little confusing especially after last year's format. However, I will say that you are absolutely dead wrong about your last sentence. This attitude of "if its dominated by Koreans then I'm not watching" is that of a vocal minority. I personally will NEVER understand why the nationality of a player has any bearing whatsoever on whether or not a fan will support him. I don't get it. I don't get it in Sports, I don't get it in e-sports. I understand the attitude exists but this scene can and will survive without people that let that attitude dominate their thinking. Will it shrink, perhaps, but it will survive. It will shrink to Broodwar, the last years. I do care about who is the best korean. I watch the GSL to see that. I just do not understand why you want to watch WCS AM/EU to see who is the best korean. If you want to see good koreans in your own time zone there is/was already Dreamhack and MLGs that sported this. What differs us in who we choose to cheer for is that I like to feel somewhat connected to whom I cheer for. Naniwa for instance has grown up in the same country and same region of that country as me. I know what he must have gone through to get to where it is. This makes it much easier for me to sympatize with him and feel pride etc if he wins something than a korean which I have absolutely nothing in common with. I have no idea what his life must have been like and cannot imagine what challanges he has faced. This is normal in sports fans. This is why you typically root for your local team in sports and not for the team on the other side of the earth (unless you just wanna be different from your local friends). For me it's equally amazing to find that there apperently are people who have never felt this connection to their local comunity. Only reason i watch WCS EU is to see whether some of our beloved foreigners can take out korean. It happens (*cough*Grubby*cough*), but it is rare. I watch WCS AM for players, whom i know can produce really good games or who are so hyped up, that i want to see how they'll do (*cough*Jim*cough*). And with this I am to assume you did not watch WCS EU 2012 then since it held no koreans to defeat. Just poor games between europeans? If this isn't true and you watched it your point is mute.
Those games from WCS 2012 EU were pretty good, I don't know what you are talking about. People seem to have selective memories when it comes to non-Korean games and their quality.
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On August 15 2013 00:03 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 23:31 -Celestial- wrote:On August 14 2013 11:35 jax1492 wrote:
NA is not better than EU, Its Korea lite I agree but I still think EU was better. Eh I'd split the difference personally. The way I see it...NA's peak ability is higher than EU. Due to a mix of a couple of outstanding foreigners, great Koreans looking for an "easier" path and of course the extremely promising Chinese players. But EU has on average better players. There are a lot more players who, whilst they might not be at the very top of the game, are more than capable of holding their own and taking games and series off Koreans. Think about it this way: Scarlett has a good claim on "best foreigner in the world" right now. But there's only one Scarlett. Out of the rest of NA how many non-Koreans would you gamble on genuinely competing well against the Koreans? Two or three? Maybe? On the other hand looking at WCS EU you've got LucifroN, VortiX, Naniwa, Grubby, TLO, etc etc. Quite a lot of players who compete well against Koreans. In short: if everyone in NA and EU was competing in the same tournament then if you had to put money on it then the smart money would be that EU region representation would be higher, but an NA player would be more likely to win it. Or in other words if I had to choose one region to put an entire team together from it'd be EU. But if I had to pick a star player I'd probably want to pick someone from NA. AM have Scarlett.....Scarlett.....Scarlett...? AM have only one player that could hardly win merged EU/NA and her name is Scarlett. EU have like you said Naniwa, Lucifron, VortiX, Grubby, HasuObs and Welmu. I don't get where you get your idea that NA player would most likely to win it ![[image loading]](http://board.fi.ogame.org/wcf/images/smilies/pillepalle.gif)
A word of advise, they are talking about people playing in the NA region, not players FROM NA... Hopefully that will solve your confusion.
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On August 15 2013 00:28 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 00:25 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 15 2013 00:10 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 14 2013 23:56 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 23:40 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 14 2013 23:32 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 23:21 Vindicare605 wrote:
Look the WCS isn't designed to find the best player in Europe or North America. That isn't its goal. That was its goal last year but when they redid the system they changed what they were trying to do.
The WCS is designed now with the purpose of creating a Master's Tournament that crowns a global champion yearly. It's the World Cup, the Superbowl whatever you want to call it. It's the big prize that every player on the planet dreams of. The entire format they've currently developed is built with the purpose of building towards the finals at the end of the year. That's why there is no region locking, If there was region locking then the finals at the end of the year will just be a repeat of 2012 where the Koreans stomp on everyone that managed to get through the other regions and the eventual champion is whichever of the small number of lucky Koreans that made it through their own stacked tournament to get there.
Its completely anti-climactic and goes against what Blizzard is trying to do.
I feel for people that want a big tournament that focuses on finding the best player in Europe or NA but that IS NOT what the WCS is for, and people clamoring for Region Locking can't seem to grasp that what they want isn't what Blizzard wanted when they made WCS in the first place, the goals are not the same.
If the demand is there for a big region locked tournament that crowns the big title for Europe or NA then someone else will come along to fill that void, hell that someone might even be Blizzard next year with a separate set of tournaments, but that isn't what WCS is, it isn't what it's designed to be. Then with risk of sounding bad... Why the Hell call is WCS EU and WCS NA? Why not just have WCS GSL (Korea) and get it done with if the point is to find the best player in the world and not foster the regions? They can invite Naniwa and Scarlett to the challanger division. Anyone else who wanna compete can move to Korea and try their luck in the qualifiers. If this is the goal and purpose of WCS then atleast have the decency to name it correctly and don't confuse us fans. I also think comparing the current WCS to superbowl is a very good comparison. Noone in the world outside of one country (the USA) cares about that event. I'm not disagreeing with you that perhaps the regions could be named to something else more arbitrary like Auir, Char or Korhal (keeping with Starcraft theme.) and that it is a little confusing especially after last year's format. However, I will say that you are absolutely dead wrong about your last sentence. This attitude of "if its dominated by Koreans then I'm not watching" is that of a vocal minority. I personally will NEVER understand why the nationality of a player has any bearing whatsoever on whether or not a fan will support him. I don't get it. I don't get it in Sports, I don't get it in e-sports. I understand the attitude exists but this scene can and will survive without people that let that attitude dominate their thinking. Will it shrink, perhaps, but it will survive. It will shrink to Broodwar, the last years. I do care about who is the best korean. I watch the GSL to see that. I just do not understand why you want to watch WCS AM/EU to see who is the best korean. If you want to see good koreans in your own time zone there is/was already Dreamhack and MLGs that sported this. What differs us in who we choose to cheer for is that I like to feel somewhat connected to whom I cheer for. Naniwa for instance has grown up in the same country and same region of that country as me. I know what he must have gone through to get to where it is. This makes it much easier for me to sympatize with him and feel pride etc if he wins something than a korean which I have absolutely nothing in common with. I have no idea what his life must have been like and cannot imagine what challanges he has faced. This is normal in sports fans. This is why you typically root for your local team in sports and not for the team on the other side of the earth (unless you just wanna be different from your local friends). For me it's equally amazing to find that there apperently are people who have never felt this connection to their local comunity. Only reason i watch WCS EU is to see whether some of our beloved foreigners can take out korean. It happens (*cough*Grubby*cough*), but it is rare. I watch WCS AM for players, whom i know can produce really good games or who are so hyped up, that i want to see how they'll do (*cough*Jim*cough*). And with this I am to assume you did not watch WCS EU 2012 then since it held no koreans to defeat. Just poor games between europeans? If this isn't true and you watched it your point is mute. Those games from WCS 2012 EU were pretty good, I don't know what you are talking about. People seem to have selective memories when it comes to non-Korean games and their quality.
Why do you answer a question specifically asked to someone else with quotes?
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On August 15 2013 00:33 Ohforfsake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 00:28 Plansix wrote:On August 15 2013 00:25 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 15 2013 00:10 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 14 2013 23:56 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 23:40 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 14 2013 23:32 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 23:21 Vindicare605 wrote:
Look the WCS isn't designed to find the best player in Europe or North America. That isn't its goal. That was its goal last year but when they redid the system they changed what they were trying to do.
The WCS is designed now with the purpose of creating a Master's Tournament that crowns a global champion yearly. It's the World Cup, the Superbowl whatever you want to call it. It's the big prize that every player on the planet dreams of. The entire format they've currently developed is built with the purpose of building towards the finals at the end of the year. That's why there is no region locking, If there was region locking then the finals at the end of the year will just be a repeat of 2012 where the Koreans stomp on everyone that managed to get through the other regions and the eventual champion is whichever of the small number of lucky Koreans that made it through their own stacked tournament to get there.
Its completely anti-climactic and goes against what Blizzard is trying to do.
I feel for people that want a big tournament that focuses on finding the best player in Europe or NA but that IS NOT what the WCS is for, and people clamoring for Region Locking can't seem to grasp that what they want isn't what Blizzard wanted when they made WCS in the first place, the goals are not the same.
If the demand is there for a big region locked tournament that crowns the big title for Europe or NA then someone else will come along to fill that void, hell that someone might even be Blizzard next year with a separate set of tournaments, but that isn't what WCS is, it isn't what it's designed to be. Then with risk of sounding bad... Why the Hell call is WCS EU and WCS NA? Why not just have WCS GSL (Korea) and get it done with if the point is to find the best player in the world and not foster the regions? They can invite Naniwa and Scarlett to the challanger division. Anyone else who wanna compete can move to Korea and try their luck in the qualifiers. If this is the goal and purpose of WCS then atleast have the decency to name it correctly and don't confuse us fans. I also think comparing the current WCS to superbowl is a very good comparison. Noone in the world outside of one country (the USA) cares about that event. I'm not disagreeing with you that perhaps the regions could be named to something else more arbitrary like Auir, Char or Korhal (keeping with Starcraft theme.) and that it is a little confusing especially after last year's format. However, I will say that you are absolutely dead wrong about your last sentence. This attitude of "if its dominated by Koreans then I'm not watching" is that of a vocal minority. I personally will NEVER understand why the nationality of a player has any bearing whatsoever on whether or not a fan will support him. I don't get it. I don't get it in Sports, I don't get it in e-sports. I understand the attitude exists but this scene can and will survive without people that let that attitude dominate their thinking. Will it shrink, perhaps, but it will survive. It will shrink to Broodwar, the last years. I do care about who is the best korean. I watch the GSL to see that. I just do not understand why you want to watch WCS AM/EU to see who is the best korean. If you want to see good koreans in your own time zone there is/was already Dreamhack and MLGs that sported this. What differs us in who we choose to cheer for is that I like to feel somewhat connected to whom I cheer for. Naniwa for instance has grown up in the same country and same region of that country as me. I know what he must have gone through to get to where it is. This makes it much easier for me to sympatize with him and feel pride etc if he wins something than a korean which I have absolutely nothing in common with. I have no idea what his life must have been like and cannot imagine what challanges he has faced. This is normal in sports fans. This is why you typically root for your local team in sports and not for the team on the other side of the earth (unless you just wanna be different from your local friends). For me it's equally amazing to find that there apperently are people who have never felt this connection to their local comunity. Only reason i watch WCS EU is to see whether some of our beloved foreigners can take out korean. It happens (*cough*Grubby*cough*), but it is rare. I watch WCS AM for players, whom i know can produce really good games or who are so hyped up, that i want to see how they'll do (*cough*Jim*cough*). And with this I am to assume you did not watch WCS EU 2012 then since it held no koreans to defeat. Just poor games between europeans? If this isn't true and you watched it your point is mute. Those games from WCS 2012 EU were pretty good, I don't know what you are talking about. People seem to have selective memories when it comes to non-Korean games and their quality. Why do you answer a question specifically asked to someone else with quotes?
No, just pointing out that they were not "Just poor games between europeans?", but some pretty quality matches.
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On August 14 2013 22:39 opisska wrote:
So, dear region-lockers, let me ask this way: Blizzard has already said that they would like to push the whole WCS eventually to be offline. Will that solve your problem?
Well it becomes alot less attractive for Koreans to participate in AM/EU, but it also becomes less attractive for Europeans/Americans to participate, which is why I don't think it will be a good idea.
Korea is a single country that is extremely centered around Seoul, pretty much everyone lives there. Europe and America are a bit more spread out, to put it very mildly. So I don't think doing everything there offline is currently a good idea.
But what if Koreans just move into US/Europe permanently and continue playing even completely offline? What will you require then - citizenship? Permanent residency? Or do you just want Blizzard to hire a team of antropologists to judge if the guy isn't too Korean to play?
Hahahahah what a funny joke you made!!1!! Just kidding, wasn't funny. Permanent residency is imo the best one. For example someone in Polts situation should be allowed to participate in AM.
The whole idea of region lock is absurd in the globalised world.
Yet despite what you would think with all the tennis examples brought into here, I dare to say the vast majority of the regular sports tournaments have region lock. Despite it being apparantly absurd.
Maybe it will work in US, because it is notoriously difficult to move there, but there is very little you can do in Europe to prevent all the Koreans to just become Europeans at almost any level barring actual citizenship. But do you really want nationalistic bureaocracy to be the deciding factor in esports competiton?
I consider it highly unlikely that would happen on a large scale.
And a last question: if you want a region lock, that means you are also OK with a region lock in Korea, right? No more foreigners in Korea and a completely closed scene like in late BW?
Would be fine for me, you still have WCS finals anyway, and of course tons of open tournaments.
On August 15 2013 00:35 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 00:33 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 15 2013 00:28 Plansix wrote:On August 15 2013 00:25 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 15 2013 00:10 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 14 2013 23:56 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 23:40 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 14 2013 23:32 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 23:21 Vindicare605 wrote:
Look the WCS isn't designed to find the best player in Europe or North America. That isn't its goal. That was its goal last year but when they redid the system they changed what they were trying to do.
The WCS is designed now with the purpose of creating a Master's Tournament that crowns a global champion yearly. It's the World Cup, the Superbowl whatever you want to call it. It's the big prize that every player on the planet dreams of. The entire format they've currently developed is built with the purpose of building towards the finals at the end of the year. That's why there is no region locking, If there was region locking then the finals at the end of the year will just be a repeat of 2012 where the Koreans stomp on everyone that managed to get through the other regions and the eventual champion is whichever of the small number of lucky Koreans that made it through their own stacked tournament to get there.
Its completely anti-climactic and goes against what Blizzard is trying to do.
I feel for people that want a big tournament that focuses on finding the best player in Europe or NA but that IS NOT what the WCS is for, and people clamoring for Region Locking can't seem to grasp that what they want isn't what Blizzard wanted when they made WCS in the first place, the goals are not the same.
If the demand is there for a big region locked tournament that crowns the big title for Europe or NA then someone else will come along to fill that void, hell that someone might even be Blizzard next year with a separate set of tournaments, but that isn't what WCS is, it isn't what it's designed to be. Then with risk of sounding bad... Why the Hell call is WCS EU and WCS NA? Why not just have WCS GSL (Korea) and get it done with if the point is to find the best player in the world and not foster the regions? They can invite Naniwa and Scarlett to the challanger division. Anyone else who wanna compete can move to Korea and try their luck in the qualifiers. If this is the goal and purpose of WCS then atleast have the decency to name it correctly and don't confuse us fans. I also think comparing the current WCS to superbowl is a very good comparison. Noone in the world outside of one country (the USA) cares about that event. I'm not disagreeing with you that perhaps the regions could be named to something else more arbitrary like Auir, Char or Korhal (keeping with Starcraft theme.) and that it is a little confusing especially after last year's format. However, I will say that you are absolutely dead wrong about your last sentence. This attitude of "if its dominated by Koreans then I'm not watching" is that of a vocal minority. I personally will NEVER understand why the nationality of a player has any bearing whatsoever on whether or not a fan will support him. I don't get it. I don't get it in Sports, I don't get it in e-sports. I understand the attitude exists but this scene can and will survive without people that let that attitude dominate their thinking. Will it shrink, perhaps, but it will survive. It will shrink to Broodwar, the last years. I do care about who is the best korean. I watch the GSL to see that. I just do not understand why you want to watch WCS AM/EU to see who is the best korean. If you want to see good koreans in your own time zone there is/was already Dreamhack and MLGs that sported this. What differs us in who we choose to cheer for is that I like to feel somewhat connected to whom I cheer for. Naniwa for instance has grown up in the same country and same region of that country as me. I know what he must have gone through to get to where it is. This makes it much easier for me to sympatize with him and feel pride etc if he wins something than a korean which I have absolutely nothing in common with. I have no idea what his life must have been like and cannot imagine what challanges he has faced. This is normal in sports fans. This is why you typically root for your local team in sports and not for the team on the other side of the earth (unless you just wanna be different from your local friends). For me it's equally amazing to find that there apperently are people who have never felt this connection to their local comunity. Only reason i watch WCS EU is to see whether some of our beloved foreigners can take out korean. It happens (*cough*Grubby*cough*), but it is rare. I watch WCS AM for players, whom i know can produce really good games or who are so hyped up, that i want to see how they'll do (*cough*Jim*cough*). And with this I am to assume you did not watch WCS EU 2012 then since it held no koreans to defeat. Just poor games between europeans? If this isn't true and you watched it your point is mute. Those games from WCS 2012 EU were pretty good, I don't know what you are talking about. People seem to have selective memories when it comes to non-Korean games and their quality. Why do you answer a question specifically asked to someone else with quotes? No, just pointing out that they were not "Just poor games between europeans?", but some pretty quality matches.
FYI you completely missed his point.
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^ I am rereading it right now to make sure. If I did, it is not 100% clear from the plain language of the text. I am going to need some more context.
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On August 15 2013 00:15 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 23:55 VisonKai wrote:
After that last game, I feel like the #1 thing Scarlett lacks is starsense and series control. Unfortunately, I think that's the hardest thing to develop for a Starcraft player.
Edit: They could work it with the angle of "we want to provide fans in all three regions the opportunity to see great games, that's why we're hosting them there, but they are all three normal tournaments which we will be renaming to X, Y, and Z". I would be cool with that. She said it herself that she just didn't expect a 6 pool on that map, she had prepared for everything else. Jaedong was just more experienced in that kind of situation, can't fault Scarlett for that at all.
Exactly what I mean. Once she develops the starsense to be able to predict things like that, she'll be great. She has a very solid playstyle but she loses due to bad series control/starsense a lot. I know I can't fault her for that, I'm just saying I think that's her major problem, not anything to do with how well she plays (though that's important too).
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 15 2013 00:25 Ohforfsake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 00:10 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 14 2013 23:56 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 23:40 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 14 2013 23:32 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 23:21 Vindicare605 wrote:
Look the WCS isn't designed to find the best player in Europe or North America. That isn't its goal. That was its goal last year but when they redid the system they changed what they were trying to do.
The WCS is designed now with the purpose of creating a Master's Tournament that crowns a global champion yearly. It's the World Cup, the Superbowl whatever you want to call it. It's the big prize that every player on the planet dreams of. The entire format they've currently developed is built with the purpose of building towards the finals at the end of the year. That's why there is no region locking, If there was region locking then the finals at the end of the year will just be a repeat of 2012 where the Koreans stomp on everyone that managed to get through the other regions and the eventual champion is whichever of the small number of lucky Koreans that made it through their own stacked tournament to get there.
Its completely anti-climactic and goes against what Blizzard is trying to do.
I feel for people that want a big tournament that focuses on finding the best player in Europe or NA but that IS NOT what the WCS is for, and people clamoring for Region Locking can't seem to grasp that what they want isn't what Blizzard wanted when they made WCS in the first place, the goals are not the same.
If the demand is there for a big region locked tournament that crowns the big title for Europe or NA then someone else will come along to fill that void, hell that someone might even be Blizzard next year with a separate set of tournaments, but that isn't what WCS is, it isn't what it's designed to be. Then with risk of sounding bad... Why the Hell call is WCS EU and WCS NA? Why not just have WCS GSL (Korea) and get it done with if the point is to find the best player in the world and not foster the regions? They can invite Naniwa and Scarlett to the challanger division. Anyone else who wanna compete can move to Korea and try their luck in the qualifiers. If this is the goal and purpose of WCS then atleast have the decency to name it correctly and don't confuse us fans. I also think comparing the current WCS to superbowl is a very good comparison. Noone in the world outside of one country (the USA) cares about that event. I'm not disagreeing with you that perhaps the regions could be named to something else more arbitrary like Auir, Char or Korhal (keeping with Starcraft theme.) and that it is a little confusing especially after last year's format. However, I will say that you are absolutely dead wrong about your last sentence. This attitude of "if its dominated by Koreans then I'm not watching" is that of a vocal minority. I personally will NEVER understand why the nationality of a player has any bearing whatsoever on whether or not a fan will support him. I don't get it. I don't get it in Sports, I don't get it in e-sports. I understand the attitude exists but this scene can and will survive without people that let that attitude dominate their thinking. Will it shrink, perhaps, but it will survive. It will shrink to Broodwar, the last years. I do care about who is the best korean. I watch the GSL to see that. I just do not understand why you want to watch WCS AM/EU to see who is the best korean. If you want to see good koreans in your own time zone there is/was already Dreamhack and MLGs that sported this. What differs us in who we choose to cheer for is that I like to feel somewhat connected to whom I cheer for. Naniwa for instance has grown up in the same country and same region of that country as me. I know what he must have gone through to get to where it is. This makes it much easier for me to sympatize with him and feel pride etc if he wins something than a korean which I have absolutely nothing in common with. I have no idea what his life must have been like and cannot imagine what challanges he has faced. This is normal in sports fans. This is why you typically root for your local team in sports and not for the team on the other side of the earth (unless you just wanna be different from your local friends). For me it's equally amazing to find that there apperently are people who have never felt this connection to their local comunity. Only reason i watch WCS EU is to see whether some of our beloved foreigners can take out korean. It happens (*cough*Grubby*cough*), but it is rare. I watch WCS AM for players, whom i know can produce really good games or who are so hyped up, that i want to see how they'll do (*cough*Jim*cough*). And with this I am to assume you did not watch WCS EU 2012 then since it held no koreans to defeat. Just poor games between europeans? If this isn't true and you watched it your point is mute.
To be fair , i only really got into watching SC2 once HotS came out. So no, i did not watch any of WCS 2012.
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On August 15 2013 00:48 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 00:25 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 15 2013 00:10 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 14 2013 23:56 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 23:40 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 14 2013 23:32 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 23:21 Vindicare605 wrote:
Look the WCS isn't designed to find the best player in Europe or North America. That isn't its goal. That was its goal last year but when they redid the system they changed what they were trying to do.
The WCS is designed now with the purpose of creating a Master's Tournament that crowns a global champion yearly. It's the World Cup, the Superbowl whatever you want to call it. It's the big prize that every player on the planet dreams of. The entire format they've currently developed is built with the purpose of building towards the finals at the end of the year. That's why there is no region locking, If there was region locking then the finals at the end of the year will just be a repeat of 2012 where the Koreans stomp on everyone that managed to get through the other regions and the eventual champion is whichever of the small number of lucky Koreans that made it through their own stacked tournament to get there.
Its completely anti-climactic and goes against what Blizzard is trying to do.
I feel for people that want a big tournament that focuses on finding the best player in Europe or NA but that IS NOT what the WCS is for, and people clamoring for Region Locking can't seem to grasp that what they want isn't what Blizzard wanted when they made WCS in the first place, the goals are not the same.
If the demand is there for a big region locked tournament that crowns the big title for Europe or NA then someone else will come along to fill that void, hell that someone might even be Blizzard next year with a separate set of tournaments, but that isn't what WCS is, it isn't what it's designed to be. Then with risk of sounding bad... Why the Hell call is WCS EU and WCS NA? Why not just have WCS GSL (Korea) and get it done with if the point is to find the best player in the world and not foster the regions? They can invite Naniwa and Scarlett to the challanger division. Anyone else who wanna compete can move to Korea and try their luck in the qualifiers. If this is the goal and purpose of WCS then atleast have the decency to name it correctly and don't confuse us fans. I also think comparing the current WCS to superbowl is a very good comparison. Noone in the world outside of one country (the USA) cares about that event. I'm not disagreeing with you that perhaps the regions could be named to something else more arbitrary like Auir, Char or Korhal (keeping with Starcraft theme.) and that it is a little confusing especially after last year's format. However, I will say that you are absolutely dead wrong about your last sentence. This attitude of "if its dominated by Koreans then I'm not watching" is that of a vocal minority. I personally will NEVER understand why the nationality of a player has any bearing whatsoever on whether or not a fan will support him. I don't get it. I don't get it in Sports, I don't get it in e-sports. I understand the attitude exists but this scene can and will survive without people that let that attitude dominate their thinking. Will it shrink, perhaps, but it will survive. It will shrink to Broodwar, the last years. I do care about who is the best korean. I watch the GSL to see that. I just do not understand why you want to watch WCS AM/EU to see who is the best korean. If you want to see good koreans in your own time zone there is/was already Dreamhack and MLGs that sported this. What differs us in who we choose to cheer for is that I like to feel somewhat connected to whom I cheer for. Naniwa for instance has grown up in the same country and same region of that country as me. I know what he must have gone through to get to where it is. This makes it much easier for me to sympatize with him and feel pride etc if he wins something than a korean which I have absolutely nothing in common with. I have no idea what his life must have been like and cannot imagine what challanges he has faced. This is normal in sports fans. This is why you typically root for your local team in sports and not for the team on the other side of the earth (unless you just wanna be different from your local friends). For me it's equally amazing to find that there apperently are people who have never felt this connection to their local comunity. Only reason i watch WCS EU is to see whether some of our beloved foreigners can take out korean. It happens (*cough*Grubby*cough*), but it is rare. I watch WCS AM for players, whom i know can produce really good games or who are so hyped up, that i want to see how they'll do (*cough*Jim*cough*). And with this I am to assume you did not watch WCS EU 2012 then since it held no koreans to defeat. Just poor games between europeans? If this isn't true and you watched it your point is mute. To be fair , i only really got into watching SC2 once HotS came out. So no, i did not watch any of WCS 2012.
You are excused in this discussion then since you have nothing to compare with. 
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On August 15 2013 00:39 Plansix wrote:
^ I am rereading it right now to make sure. If I did, it is not 100% clear from the plain language of the text. I am going to need some more context.
At least unless I misunderstood it, I am fairly sure it was meant sarcastic: If it was true that without Koreans you cant have good games, then WCS EU 2012 should have been filled with horrible games.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 15 2013 01:06 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 00:39 Plansix wrote:
^ I am rereading it right now to make sure. If I did, it is not 100% clear from the plain language of the text. I am going to need some more context. At least unless I misunderstood it, I am fairly sure it was meant sarcastic: If it was true that without Koreans you cant have good games, then WCS EU 2012 should have been filled with horrible games.
I wonder who said that without Koreans you can't have good games? I like BabyKnight's games at group stages (especially that one against Stephano's lazy zerg style). It's just that "Storyline" © was not there for me. And no, i don't consider underdog story real in europe's scene, and that rotation of ro8 players in WCS eu only supports my point (aka europe's overall skill level is pretty even around the top europe's players).
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On August 15 2013 01:06 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 00:39 Plansix wrote:
^ I am rereading it right now to make sure. If I did, it is not 100% clear from the plain language of the text. I am going to need some more context. At least unless I misunderstood it, I am fairly sure it was meant sarcastic: If it was true that without Koreans you cant have good games, then WCS EU 2012 should have been filled with horrible games.
It was ment to disprove anyone saying koreans is needed to make an interesting tournament. If you watched WCS 2012 then that statement simply isn't true. there where no koreans there and you watched it. The same people that state koreans are needed also usually state that games between none koreans are bad, that's why i added that reference. It turned out the poster I answered was new and didn't see anything 2012 however so it was a pretty failed asumption about him by me. It will be my go to answer however once someone post "I only watch the best players" standard answers.
I hope that clears it up for you two
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On August 15 2013 01:13 Ohforfsake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 01:06 Sissors wrote:On August 15 2013 00:39 Plansix wrote:
^ I am rereading it right now to make sure. If I did, it is not 100% clear from the plain language of the text. I am going to need some more context. At least unless I misunderstood it, I am fairly sure it was meant sarcastic: If it was true that without Koreans you cant have good games, then WCS EU 2012 should have been filled with horrible games. It was ment to disprove anyone saying koreans is needed to make an interesting tournament. If you watched WCS 2012 then that statement simply isn't true. there where no koreans there and you watched it. The same people that state koreans are needed also usually state that games between none koreans are bad, that's why i added that reference. It turned out the poster I answered was new and didn't see anything 2012 however so it was a pretty failed asumption about him by me. It will be my go to answer however once someone post "I only watch the best players" standard answers. I hope that clears it up for you two
Ah, that does clear it up. I also get really tired of people saying over and over "I only want to watch the best, I don't watch events for "personality"." It gets really old. One of the best parts of TI3 was the human angle (and Puppy hitting on the interviewer) which roped in my girlfriend and other people who don't know shit about Dota 2. The story line is also a fun part of events and there is no reason we can't have a EU event and the best of the best in the GSL.
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United States97276 Posts
On August 14 2013 19:00 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 16:40 Shellshock1122 wrote:
Oz and aLive are about on the same level as finale and he just won EU EU is very match up dependant. PvT from Europe would give headache to lots of good players from Korea. That MVP dropped out wasn't a fluke, but Europe did show that their PvT is one of the best there is. Elfi beat TaeJa, MaNa and Socke beat countless Koreans. Its no fluke and has happened before. Also PvP as Europe is fielding tons of good Protoss is also hard. Finale winning doesn't make him superior to anyone participating in the tournament. Especially because all his series were very close.
I still think it is a wrong statement to say that adding Oz and aLive to the field wouldn't increase the skill level in EU, which is what the guy said that I was responding to. There are several people in premier that I would rate them stronger than.
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On August 15 2013 00:36 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 22:39 opisska wrote:
So, dear region-lockers, let me ask this way: Blizzard has already said that they would like to push the whole WCS eventually to be offline. Will that solve your problem? Well it becomes alot less attractive for Koreans to participate in AM/EU, but it also becomes less attractive for Europeans/Americans to participate, which is why I don't think it will be a good idea. Korea is a single country that is extremely centered around Seoul, pretty much everyone lives there. Europe and America are a bit more spread out, to put it very mildly. So I don't think doing everything there offline is currently a good idea. Show nested quote +But what if Koreans just move into US/Europe permanently and continue playing even completely offline? What will you require then - citizenship? Permanent residency? Or do you just want Blizzard to hire a team of antropologists to judge if the guy isn't too Korean to play? Hahahahah what a funny joke you made!!1!! Just kidding, wasn't funny. Permanent residency is imo the best one. For example someone in Polts situation should be allowed to participate in AM. Yet despite what you would think with all the tennis examples brought into here, I dare to say the vast majority of the regular sports tournaments have region lock. Despite it being apparantly absurd. Show nested quote +Maybe it will work in US, because it is notoriously difficult to move there, but there is very little you can do in Europe to prevent all the Koreans to just become Europeans at almost any level barring actual citizenship. But do you really want nationalistic bureaocracy to be the deciding factor in esports competiton? I consider it highly unlikely that would happen on a large scale. Show nested quote +And a last question: if you want a region lock, that means you are also OK with a region lock in Korea, right? No more foreigners in Korea and a completely closed scene like in late BW? Would be fine for me, you still have WCS finals anyway, and of course tons of open tournaments. Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 00:35 Plansix wrote:On August 15 2013 00:33 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 15 2013 00:28 Plansix wrote:On August 15 2013 00:25 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 15 2013 00:10 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 14 2013 23:56 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 23:40 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 14 2013 23:32 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 23:21 Vindicare605 wrote:
Look the WCS isn't designed to find the best player in Europe or North America. That isn't its goal. That was its goal last year but when they redid the system they changed what they were trying to do.
The WCS is designed now with the purpose of creating a Master's Tournament that crowns a global champion yearly. It's the World Cup, the Superbowl whatever you want to call it. It's the big prize that every player on the planet dreams of. The entire format they've currently developed is built with the purpose of building towards the finals at the end of the year. That's why there is no region locking, If there was region locking then the finals at the end of the year will just be a repeat of 2012 where the Koreans stomp on everyone that managed to get through the other regions and the eventual champion is whichever of the small number of lucky Koreans that made it through their own stacked tournament to get there.
Its completely anti-climactic and goes against what Blizzard is trying to do.
I feel for people that want a big tournament that focuses on finding the best player in Europe or NA but that IS NOT what the WCS is for, and people clamoring for Region Locking can't seem to grasp that what they want isn't what Blizzard wanted when they made WCS in the first place, the goals are not the same.
If the demand is there for a big region locked tournament that crowns the big title for Europe or NA then someone else will come along to fill that void, hell that someone might even be Blizzard next year with a separate set of tournaments, but that isn't what WCS is, it isn't what it's designed to be. Then with risk of sounding bad... Why the Hell call is WCS EU and WCS NA? Why not just have WCS GSL (Korea) and get it done with if the point is to find the best player in the world and not foster the regions? They can invite Naniwa and Scarlett to the challanger division. Anyone else who wanna compete can move to Korea and try their luck in the qualifiers. If this is the goal and purpose of WCS then atleast have the decency to name it correctly and don't confuse us fans. I also think comparing the current WCS to superbowl is a very good comparison. Noone in the world outside of one country (the USA) cares about that event. I'm not disagreeing with you that perhaps the regions could be named to something else more arbitrary like Auir, Char or Korhal (keeping with Starcraft theme.) and that it is a little confusing especially after last year's format. However, I will say that you are absolutely dead wrong about your last sentence. This attitude of "if its dominated by Koreans then I'm not watching" is that of a vocal minority. I personally will NEVER understand why the nationality of a player has any bearing whatsoever on whether or not a fan will support him. I don't get it. I don't get it in Sports, I don't get it in e-sports. I understand the attitude exists but this scene can and will survive without people that let that attitude dominate their thinking. Will it shrink, perhaps, but it will survive. It will shrink to Broodwar, the last years. I do care about who is the best korean. I watch the GSL to see that. I just do not understand why you want to watch WCS AM/EU to see who is the best korean. If you want to see good koreans in your own time zone there is/was already Dreamhack and MLGs that sported this. What differs us in who we choose to cheer for is that I like to feel somewhat connected to whom I cheer for. Naniwa for instance has grown up in the same country and same region of that country as me. I know what he must have gone through to get to where it is. This makes it much easier for me to sympatize with him and feel pride etc if he wins something than a korean which I have absolutely nothing in common with. I have no idea what his life must have been like and cannot imagine what challanges he has faced. This is normal in sports fans. This is why you typically root for your local team in sports and not for the team on the other side of the earth (unless you just wanna be different from your local friends). For me it's equally amazing to find that there apperently are people who have never felt this connection to their local comunity. Only reason i watch WCS EU is to see whether some of our beloved foreigners can take out korean. It happens (*cough*Grubby*cough*), but it is rare. I watch WCS AM for players, whom i know can produce really good games or who are so hyped up, that i want to see how they'll do (*cough*Jim*cough*). And with this I am to assume you did not watch WCS EU 2012 then since it held no koreans to defeat. Just poor games between europeans? If this isn't true and you watched it your point is mute. Those games from WCS 2012 EU were pretty good, I don't know what you are talking about. People seem to have selective memories when it comes to non-Korean games and their quality. Why do you answer a question specifically asked to someone else with quotes? No, just pointing out that they were not "Just poor games between europeans?", but some pretty quality matches. FYI you completely missed his point.
I would try to answer in the same structured way, because it is the best way for multiple threads in one conversation, but everytime I do that, I absolutely botch the quotes and can never fix them back. So I apologize for writting a summary answer, but I can't apparently do better.
The point about more offline WCS being bad even for EU/US players is a good one, but I am not sure that Blizzard is considering it, as the thing about more WCS offline is not from my head, but from Blizzard, they said it many times. If that happens, even local players would have to relocate, at least partially - do you realy think that it is that much easier for them than for Koreans - speaking about EU, obviously? I just do not share your opinion that a significant relocation of Koreans is unlikely - it is also good to remember, that it doesn't have to be a lot of people. There are currently not even a dozen Koreans in WCS EU, yet they have a pretty significant impact on it.
On the other hand, the ever-repeated argumentation by traditional sports is moot in my opinion and doesn't disprove my claim of absurdity. People just do a lot of absurd stuff, especially in areas that have a long traditon, because there you get a lot of inertia. And it wasn't really that absurd 30 years ago, when the world was a bunch of largely disconnected coutries. But now, we live in a world, where you can communicate and travel between any points on a whim - imposing these old-fashoined local restriction is just backwards thinking. If anything, shouldn't the esports, whose main demographics is young, bright, educated and technologically savvy people be as forwards as possible?
And if you wish to use classical sports as an example, look at football (soccer) - there are multiple limits on citizenshiup of the players that are just being easily bypassed by giving them the citizenship that is just needed, because there is enough money to push that. Is that really something we want to imitate?
But to me, the thing I feel strongest about is what I started in the paragraph before the previous one: I just hate when your .. anything depends on your passport. Yes, I know that there are a milion things that are like that, but why on Earth should esports be another contributor in the wrong direction?
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On August 15 2013 01:17 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 01:13 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 15 2013 01:06 Sissors wrote:On August 15 2013 00:39 Plansix wrote:
^ I am rereading it right now to make sure. If I did, it is not 100% clear from the plain language of the text. I am going to need some more context. At least unless I misunderstood it, I am fairly sure it was meant sarcastic: If it was true that without Koreans you cant have good games, then WCS EU 2012 should have been filled with horrible games. It was ment to disprove anyone saying koreans is needed to make an interesting tournament. If you watched WCS 2012 then that statement simply isn't true. there where no koreans there and you watched it. The same people that state koreans are needed also usually state that games between none koreans are bad, that's why i added that reference. It turned out the poster I answered was new and didn't see anything 2012 however so it was a pretty failed asumption about him by me. It will be my go to answer however once someone post "I only watch the best players" standard answers. I hope that clears it up for you two Ah, that does clear it up. I also get really tired of people saying over and over "I only want to watch the best, I don't watch events for "personality"." It gets really old. One of the best parts of TI3 was the human angle (and Puppy hitting on the interviewer) which roped in my girlfriend and other people who don't know shit about Dota 2. The story line is also a fun part of events and there is no reason we can't have a EU event and the best of the best in the GSL.
Agreed. There were so many fantastic storylines in TI3. My favorite apart from the Alliance and that last match of the finals was Team Liquid beating LGD.cn . I'm not even american and even I got touched by that. That kind of underdog story and fantastic sucess isn't possible if you don't allow some underdogs from different regions to actually be in the finals.
I can still hear the chants from the crowd "USA! USA! USA!" and see that moment of absolute bliss on the players when they realized they had eliminated LGD.cn and Bulbas crazy rush out to the audience.
That tournament was just hands down the best I have seen in Esports thus far and a shining beacon of how it should be done pointed at Blizzard/WCS.
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On August 14 2013 03:20 renaissanceMAN wrote:
LEAVE JAEDONG ALONEEEEE
![[image loading]](https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ9_Js_kaijO2Jb-2bPidRGx8hQvLEXueDh4Ccbdkmx6edJLDd16Q)
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On August 15 2013 00:36 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 22:39 opisska wrote:
So, dear region-lockers, let me ask this way: Blizzard has already said that they would like to push the whole WCS eventually to be offline. Will that solve your problem? Well it becomes alot less attractive for Koreans to participate in AM/EU, but it also becomes less attractive for Europeans/Americans to participate, which is why I don't think it will be a good idea. Korea is a single country that is extremely centered around Seoul, pretty much everyone lives there. Europe and America are a bit more spread out, to put it very mildly. So I don't think doing everything there offline is currently a good idea. Show nested quote +But what if Koreans just move into US/Europe permanently and continue playing even completely offline? What will you require then - citizenship? Permanent residency? Or do you just want Blizzard to hire a team of antropologists to judge if the guy isn't too Korean to play? Hahahahah what a funny joke you made!!1!! Just kidding, wasn't funny. Permanent residency is imo the best one. For example someone in Polts situation should be allowed to participate in AM. Yet despite what you would think with all the tennis examples brought into here, I dare to say the vast majority of the regular sports tournaments have region lock. Despite it being apparantly absurd. Show nested quote +Maybe it will work in US, because it is notoriously difficult to move there, but there is very little you can do in Europe to prevent all the Koreans to just become Europeans at almost any level barring actual citizenship. But do you really want nationalistic bureaocracy to be the deciding factor in esports competiton? I consider it highly unlikely that would happen on a large scale. Show nested quote +And a last question: if you want a region lock, that means you are also OK with a region lock in Korea, right? No more foreigners in Korea and a completely closed scene like in late BW? Would be fine for me, you still have WCS finals anyway, and of course tons of open tournaments. Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 00:35 Plansix wrote:On August 15 2013 00:33 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 15 2013 00:28 Plansix wrote:On August 15 2013 00:25 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 15 2013 00:10 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 14 2013 23:56 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 23:40 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 14 2013 23:32 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 23:21 Vindicare605 wrote:
Look the WCS isn't designed to find the best player in Europe or North America. That isn't its goal. That was its goal last year but when they redid the system they changed what they were trying to do.
The WCS is designed now with the purpose of creating a Master's Tournament that crowns a global champion yearly. It's the World Cup, the Superbowl whatever you want to call it. It's the big prize that every player on the planet dreams of. The entire format they've currently developed is built with the purpose of building towards the finals at the end of the year. That's why there is no region locking, If there was region locking then the finals at the end of the year will just be a repeat of 2012 where the Koreans stomp on everyone that managed to get through the other regions and the eventual champion is whichever of the small number of lucky Koreans that made it through their own stacked tournament to get there.
Its completely anti-climactic and goes against what Blizzard is trying to do.
I feel for people that want a big tournament that focuses on finding the best player in Europe or NA but that IS NOT what the WCS is for, and people clamoring for Region Locking can't seem to grasp that what they want isn't what Blizzard wanted when they made WCS in the first place, the goals are not the same.
If the demand is there for a big region locked tournament that crowns the big title for Europe or NA then someone else will come along to fill that void, hell that someone might even be Blizzard next year with a separate set of tournaments, but that isn't what WCS is, it isn't what it's designed to be. Then with risk of sounding bad... Why the Hell call is WCS EU and WCS NA? Why not just have WCS GSL (Korea) and get it done with if the point is to find the best player in the world and not foster the regions? They can invite Naniwa and Scarlett to the challanger division. Anyone else who wanna compete can move to Korea and try their luck in the qualifiers. If this is the goal and purpose of WCS then atleast have the decency to name it correctly and don't confuse us fans. I also think comparing the current WCS to superbowl is a very good comparison. Noone in the world outside of one country (the USA) cares about that event. I'm not disagreeing with you that perhaps the regions could be named to something else more arbitrary like Auir, Char or Korhal (keeping with Starcraft theme.) and that it is a little confusing especially after last year's format. However, I will say that you are absolutely dead wrong about your last sentence. This attitude of "if its dominated by Koreans then I'm not watching" is that of a vocal minority. I personally will NEVER understand why the nationality of a player has any bearing whatsoever on whether or not a fan will support him. I don't get it. I don't get it in Sports, I don't get it in e-sports. I understand the attitude exists but this scene can and will survive without people that let that attitude dominate their thinking. Will it shrink, perhaps, but it will survive. It will shrink to Broodwar, the last years. I do care about who is the best korean. I watch the GSL to see that. I just do not understand why you want to watch WCS AM/EU to see who is the best korean. If you want to see good koreans in your own time zone there is/was already Dreamhack and MLGs that sported this. What differs us in who we choose to cheer for is that I like to feel somewhat connected to whom I cheer for. Naniwa for instance has grown up in the same country and same region of that country as me. I know what he must have gone through to get to where it is. This makes it much easier for me to sympatize with him and feel pride etc if he wins something than a korean which I have absolutely nothing in common with. I have no idea what his life must have been like and cannot imagine what challanges he has faced. This is normal in sports fans. This is why you typically root for your local team in sports and not for the team on the other side of the earth (unless you just wanna be different from your local friends). For me it's equally amazing to find that there apperently are people who have never felt this connection to their local comunity. Only reason i watch WCS EU is to see whether some of our beloved foreigners can take out korean. It happens (*cough*Grubby*cough*), but it is rare. I watch WCS AM for players, whom i know can produce really good games or who are so hyped up, that i want to see how they'll do (*cough*Jim*cough*). And with this I am to assume you did not watch WCS EU 2012 then since it held no koreans to defeat. Just poor games between europeans? If this isn't true and you watched it your point is mute. Those games from WCS 2012 EU were pretty good, I don't know what you are talking about. People seem to have selective memories when it comes to non-Korean games and their quality. Why do you answer a question specifically asked to someone else with quotes? No, just pointing out that they were not "Just poor games between europeans?", but some pretty quality matches. FYI you completely missed his point.
i can't think of an individual sport on a decent scale that is region locked atm. they might be a few tho. It's absurd to compare starcraft to team sport when it's just an individual sport like tennis, golf or whatever (hint Gom Kor vs the world was exactly the replicate of the ryder cup) and teamleagues happen all the time in individual sport, the only difference is that ppl don't care about them if it's not a nation vs nation thing.
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On August 15 2013 01:41 Ohforfsake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 01:17 Plansix wrote:On August 15 2013 01:13 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 15 2013 01:06 Sissors wrote:On August 15 2013 00:39 Plansix wrote:
^ I am rereading it right now to make sure. If I did, it is not 100% clear from the plain language of the text. I am going to need some more context. At least unless I misunderstood it, I am fairly sure it was meant sarcastic: If it was true that without Koreans you cant have good games, then WCS EU 2012 should have been filled with horrible games. It was ment to disprove anyone saying koreans is needed to make an interesting tournament. If you watched WCS 2012 then that statement simply isn't true. there where no koreans there and you watched it. The same people that state koreans are needed also usually state that games between none koreans are bad, that's why i added that reference. It turned out the poster I answered was new and didn't see anything 2012 however so it was a pretty failed asumption about him by me. It will be my go to answer however once someone post "I only watch the best players" standard answers. I hope that clears it up for you two Ah, that does clear it up. I also get really tired of people saying over and over "I only want to watch the best, I don't watch events for "personality"." It gets really old. One of the best parts of TI3 was the human angle (and Puppy hitting on the interviewer) which roped in my girlfriend and other people who don't know shit about Dota 2. The story line is also a fun part of events and there is no reason we can't have a EU event and the best of the best in the GSL. Agreed. There were so many fantastic storylines in TI3. My favorite apart from the Alliance and that last match of the finals was Team Liquid beating LGD.cn . I'm not even american and even I got touched by that. That kind of underdog story and fantastic sucess isn't possible if you don't allow some underdogs from different regions to actually be in the finals. I can still hear the chants from the crowd "USA! USA! USA!" and see that moment of absolute bliss on the players when they realized they had eliminated LGD.cn and Bulbas crazy rush out to the audience. That tournament was just hands down the best I have seen in Esports thus far and a shining beacon of how it should be done pointed at Blizzard/WCS.
To be fair to WCS and Blizzard, the TI3 is a much more focused event than WCS. Its is a single week, run in Valves back yard, invite with a limited qualifers and run by their a professional production studio. It is amazing and awesome, but there is no way it could happen more than once a year.
WSC is a must longer term plan that has more moving parts across 3 regions, with entrenched companies in Korea who want to do things their way. I have high hopes for Blizzcon as being a huge event that will make us super excited about SC2.
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EPT
