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On August 14 2013 21:56 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 21:52 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 21:47 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 14 2013 21:43 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 21:38 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 14 2013 21:35 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 21:30 lichter wrote:On August 14 2013 21:05 Ohforfsake wrote:
Yes it is possible to be successful, but that's not what WCS is meant to be.
Say what? WCS isn't ment to be successful? That explains A LOT. WCS isn't meant to be another WCG So what, exactly, is WCS ment to be? And what, exactly, is it ment to promote? It is meant to be GSL/OSL clone to be run at Europe and America. With only koreans? Why? Again, what is it ment to promote that GSL isn't already promoting? With only koreans? What? And remind me, what exactly GSL is promoting? Can i answer your questions with counter questions too? How long can we go on only doing counter questions? Is it possible you will answer my questions with an answer one of these days? (To use the old kinder garden pharse: "I asked first. What exactly it's promoting? You can't answer that questions with asking me what it's promoting. I don't know what exactly WCS is promoting or I wouldn't ask.) (Edit: Too many spelling errors) I claim it does not promote anything special (something, that GSL is not promoting, for instance), but then again i lack the knowledge and have no idea what GSL promotes (and what WCS meant to promote).
Ah, that explains the questions. And leave my original question. What exactly is WCS ment to promote? Anyone else wanna jump in and try to answer?
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Austria24417 Posts
I think you're misunderstanding the point. Blizzard doesn't want WCS to be a World Championship - that's what WCG is. Blizzard wants it to be a Masters Cup (now called ATP World Finals).
Also played in London btw. Before that they held it in Shanghai, that's why I got those two mixed up.
Nobody's comparing the sports SC2 and Tennis. The only thing being compared are the tournament systems. A Masters type tournament doesn't just exist in Tennis.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On August 14 2013 22:08 Ohforfsake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 21:56 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 14 2013 21:52 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 21:47 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 14 2013 21:43 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 21:38 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 14 2013 21:35 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 21:30 lichter wrote:On August 14 2013 21:05 Ohforfsake wrote:
Yes it is possible to be successful, but that's not what WCS is meant to be.
Say what? WCS isn't ment to be successful? That explains A LOT. WCS isn't meant to be another WCG So what, exactly, is WCS ment to be? And what, exactly, is it ment to promote? It is meant to be GSL/OSL clone to be run at Europe and America. With only koreans? Why? Again, what is it ment to promote that GSL isn't already promoting? With only koreans? What? And remind me, what exactly GSL is promoting? Can i answer your questions with counter questions too? How long can we go on only doing counter questions? Is it possible you will answer my questions with an answer one of these days? (To use the old kinder garden pharse: "I asked first. What exactly it's promoting? You can't answer that questions with asking me what it's promoting. I don't know what exactly WCS is promoting or I wouldn't ask.) (Edit: Too many spelling errors) I claim it does not promote anything special (something, that GSL is not promoting, for instance), but then again i lack the knowledge and have no idea what GSL promotes (and what WCS meant to promote). Ah, that explains the questions. And leave my original question. What exactly is WCS ment to promote? Anyone else wanna jump in and try to answer?
Cloaken to the rescue:
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1hkvoq/we_are_kim_phan_and_kevin_johnson_of_the_blizzard/cavc6ck
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1hkvoq/we_are_kim_phan_and_kevin_johnson_of_the_blizzard/cavbr1t
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Austria24417 Posts
On August 14 2013 22:06 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 21:59 lichter wrote:
Anyone living in Korea can play in the GSL. It isn't region locked.
People forget that when Blizz decided to implement WCS, it screwed over Koreans. They limited the prize pool, removed prize money from lower tournaments and lower finishing positions, and limited the number of tournaments that Korea can run.
So no, WCS is not biased towards Koreans. That's the definition of region lock. I have no problem with Polt playing in WCS NA when he lives in the US.
Poorly worded. You don't have to live in Korea to play in GSL, you could technically fly in for every round. It's just an offline tournament, that's why it's necessary to live in Korea.
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Austria24417 Posts
On August 14 2013 22:13 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 22:08 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 21:56 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 14 2013 21:52 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 21:47 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 14 2013 21:43 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 21:38 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 14 2013 21:35 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 21:30 lichter wrote:On August 14 2013 21:05 Ohforfsake wrote:
[quote]
Say what? WCS isn't ment to be successful? That explains A LOT.
WCS isn't meant to be another WCG So what, exactly, is WCS ment to be? And what, exactly, is it ment to promote? It is meant to be GSL/OSL clone to be run at Europe and America. With only koreans? Why? Again, what is it ment to promote that GSL isn't already promoting? With only koreans? What? And remind me, what exactly GSL is promoting? Can i answer your questions with counter questions too? How long can we go on only doing counter questions? Is it possible you will answer my questions with an answer one of these days? (To use the old kinder garden pharse: "I asked first. What exactly it's promoting? You can't answer that questions with asking me what it's promoting. I don't know what exactly WCS is promoting or I wouldn't ask.) (Edit: Too many spelling errors) I claim it does not promote anything special (something, that GSL is not promoting, for instance), but then again i lack the knowledge and have no idea what GSL promotes (and what WCS meant to promote). Ah, that explains the questions. And leave my original question. What exactly is WCS ment to promote? Anyone else wanna jump in and try to answer? Cloaken to the rescue: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1hkvoq/we_are_kim_phan_and_kevin_johnson_of_the_blizzard/cavc6ckhttp://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1hkvoq/we_are_kim_phan_and_kevin_johnson_of_the_blizzard/cavbr1t
This proves what I'm saying about Blizzard's goal to establish a Masters type tournament btw.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On August 14 2013 22:16 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 22:13 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 14 2013 22:08 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 21:56 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 14 2013 21:52 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 21:47 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 14 2013 21:43 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 21:38 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 14 2013 21:35 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 21:30 lichter wrote:
[quote]
WCS isn't meant to be another WCG So what, exactly, is WCS ment to be? And what, exactly, is it ment to promote? It is meant to be GSL/OSL clone to be run at Europe and America. With only koreans? Why? Again, what is it ment to promote that GSL isn't already promoting? With only koreans? What? And remind me, what exactly GSL is promoting? Can i answer your questions with counter questions too? How long can we go on only doing counter questions? Is it possible you will answer my questions with an answer one of these days? (To use the old kinder garden pharse: "I asked first. What exactly it's promoting? You can't answer that questions with asking me what it's promoting. I don't know what exactly WCS is promoting or I wouldn't ask.) (Edit: Too many spelling errors) I claim it does not promote anything special (something, that GSL is not promoting, for instance), but then again i lack the knowledge and have no idea what GSL promotes (and what WCS meant to promote). Ah, that explains the questions. And leave my original question. What exactly is WCS ment to promote? Anyone else wanna jump in and try to answer? Cloaken to the rescue: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1hkvoq/we_are_kim_phan_and_kevin_johnson_of_the_blizzard/cavc6ckhttp://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1hkvoq/we_are_kim_phan_and_kevin_johnson_of_the_blizzard/cavbr1t This proves what I'm saying about Blizzard's goal to establish a Masters type tournament btw.
Not that i am arguing against it :D
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Austria24417 Posts
On August 14 2013 22:18 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 22:16 DarkLordOlli wrote:On August 14 2013 22:13 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 14 2013 22:08 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 21:56 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 14 2013 21:52 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 21:47 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 14 2013 21:43 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 21:38 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 14 2013 21:35 Ohforfsake wrote:
[quote]
So what, exactly, is WCS ment to be? And what, exactly, is it ment to promote?
It is meant to be GSL/OSL clone to be run at Europe and America. With only koreans? Why? Again, what is it ment to promote that GSL isn't already promoting? With only koreans? What? And remind me, what exactly GSL is promoting? Can i answer your questions with counter questions too? How long can we go on only doing counter questions? Is it possible you will answer my questions with an answer one of these days? (To use the old kinder garden pharse: "I asked first. What exactly it's promoting? You can't answer that questions with asking me what it's promoting. I don't know what exactly WCS is promoting or I wouldn't ask.) (Edit: Too many spelling errors) I claim it does not promote anything special (something, that GSL is not promoting, for instance), but then again i lack the knowledge and have no idea what GSL promotes (and what WCS meant to promote). Ah, that explains the questions. And leave my original question. What exactly is WCS ment to promote? Anyone else wanna jump in and try to answer? Cloaken to the rescue: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1hkvoq/we_are_kim_phan_and_kevin_johnson_of_the_blizzard/cavc6ckhttp://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1hkvoq/we_are_kim_phan_and_kevin_johnson_of_the_blizzard/cavbr1t This proves what I'm saying about Blizzard's goal to establish a Masters type tournament btw. Not that i am arguing against it :D
Yeah I know, wasn't aimed at you 
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On August 14 2013 22:08 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 22:05 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 21:47 DarkLordOlli wrote:On August 14 2013 21:42 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 21:40 DarkLordOlli wrote:On August 14 2013 21:35 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 21:30 lichter wrote:On August 14 2013 21:05 Ohforfsake wrote:
Yes it is possible to be successful, but that's not what WCS is meant to be.
Say what? WCS isn't ment to be successful? That explains A LOT. WCS isn't meant to be another WCG So what, exactly, is WCS ment to be? And what, exactly, is it ment to promote? The Global Finals are meant to be what the Shanghai Masters is in Tennis. I have no idea what that is. Don't really follow tennis and only know what grands slams and the olypics are in tennis. Never heard of any Shanghai Masters. Ah sorry, not the Shanghai Masters. What I meant was the ATP World Tour Finals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATP_World_Tour_FinalsTL;DR: it's the 8 best performing players of the entire season playing in one tournament. Ah, that one I actually did know. Usually played in Dubai. Anyways, since tennis seems a favorite sport to compare to for some reason I'll try to answer you. Tennis do not have the same challanges as Sc2. There is no 1 country that totally dominates the sport and there havn't been for decades (might have been in the early days I donno). There is a nice spread among the top players with every continent on the planet present (Asia is a bit low but 1 or 2 exists from there too in grand slams). Since the sport has been like this with a good spread for a long time there has been no reason for a ruling body over the sport to step in and take action. Interest is naturally spread around the would because all parts of the world have top players and top tournaments. Here is another sport for you tho. Nordic cross country skiing. The sport is aproximately the same size as tennis (might be slightly bigger). One country is completely dominating it (Norway) and have been for a very long time. (This sport is actually a very good example to study because it's so simular to SC2 and korean dominance). What happened here however is that early on the international organisation with Norway in the front realized that this is not good for the sport on an international level. Even Norway who dominates it want the rest of the world to be interested and see their dominance. So a number of restrictions was created. Any country can only use 3 (I think) athlets at the world championship. On to of this the previous champions country has a free card (so Norway almost always can field 4). It might be 4 and 5 instead as numbers I can't remeber off hand but the principle stays the same. On top of this Norway has actively encouraged its trainers (not athlets) to go work for other countries and help them catch up. The sport is growing every year as a result and last World Championships hosted 74 countries. Many other sports have a system simular to this as well. Now, what's so wrong with it? Lemme guess: ALL world championships were won by Norwegians in rather dominating fashion? If not, then your example is bad one, because it still does not show a clear dominance of 1 country over rest.
Skiing is a lot older than SC2. So no, not all WCs since the 1900s have been won by norwegians. Just the majority of them. The last WC saw Norway take 8 gold, 5 silver, 6 bronze with the closest nation behind them take 4 medals total. The main reason why other countries take medals is because norway isn't allowed to send more than a few athlets and they can have a bad day/week. It has happened more than once that reserves from norway take gold in the competition when they get the chanse. Getting into the norwegian national ski team is about as easy as ranking top 4 in sc2 in korea yeah. So it is a very good comparison.
Now how about you answer my question about what is so bad with the system I outlined above that proven global sports use.
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Austria24417 Posts
Classic skiing was also dominated by Austria for a long time. Was that bad for everybody? No it wasn't because people starting looking at what the Austrian skiing team was doing, their training methods, the thoughts going into it, the science behind it, etc. Now the playing field is a lot more even.
There's a chance that the same thing happens to SC2. The reasons are the exact same - Koreans aren't better because they're Korean but because their training environment is simply better, their ladder is perfect for training, their teamhouses provide them with the best conditions to practice and perform, their teams take care of players, etc.
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When will Blizzard realise that viewers are mostly racist and they need to kick the Koreans out before SC2 dies!
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"Second strongest region" as in "second most Koreans playing".
Better or worse just depends on how much passion and entertainment Americans are able to get out of cheering for/ watching "adopted" Koreans play. As a European I feel somewhat robbed when MVP takes our #1 spot, but then Americas culture is probably way more suited to making "foreigners" your own. If people can watch, enjoy and truly be happy when "their" (korean) player wins, then it might be a blessing for the notoriously weak NA scene. On the other hand it just might make it even harder for american talent to emerge.
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So, dear region-lockers, let me ask this way: Blizzard has already said that they would like to push the whole WCS eventually to be offline. Will that solve your problem? But what if Koreans just move into US/Europe permanently and continue playing even completely offline? What will you require then - citizenship? Permanent residency? Or do you just want Blizzard to hire a team of antropologists to judge if the guy isn't too Korean to play?
The whole idea of region lock is absurd in the globalised world. Maybe it will work in US, because it is notoriously difficult to move there, but there is very little you can do in Europe to prevent all the Koreans to just become Europeans at almost any level barring actual citizenship. But do you really want nationalistic bureaocracy to be the deciding factor in esports competiton?
And a last question: if you want a region lock, that means you are also OK with a region lock in Korea, right? No more foreigners in Korea and a completely closed scene like in late BW?
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On August 14 2013 05:20 E.L.V.I.S wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 05:09 Sevre wrote:On August 14 2013 05:03 holmesgenius wrote:
No matter what......korean will win this season. And every season for the likely future. Time to pack up and go back to Brood War right? Oh wait... my bet is that grubby will be the first foreigner to win wcs eu
possible but his games are a bit too unstable. he doesn't really have a lot of games where he dominates the player.
Personally I think dimaga can take it if he plays as well as he did in season 1
really depends on the brackets as well. anyhow it's gonna be interesting to see if the entire ro8 gonna be different against for season 3
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
To be fair, no player in WCS EU looked really dominant, except for Mvp in WCS EU Ro8 and onwards.
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On August 14 2013 22:23 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Classic skiing was also dominated by Austria for a long time. Was that bad for everybody? No it wasn't because people starting looking at what the Austrian skiing team was doing, their training methods, the thoughts going into it, the science behind it, etc. Now the playing field is a lot more even.
There's a chance that the same thing happens to SC2. The reasons are the exact same - Koreans aren't better because they're Korean but because their training environment is simply better, their ladder is perfect for training, their teamhouses provide them with the best conditions to practice and perform, their teams take care of players, etc.
That works as long as you don’t smother the competitive scene with talent from another region. As long as there are ways for skilled players to practice against people of their skill level or greater, they will have a shot at being WCS champion. But there does need to be a progression for people to become as good as the Korean players. If you look at most professional sports, it travels along these lines.
• Pick up games/amateur play.
• High school
• College
• Minor leagues
• Major leagues
This system works out and allows people to rise, challenge themselves and advice. There needs to be rules in place to protect the lower leagues from higher level players simply crushing through them to win prize money. No one would be ok with a NFL player competing in a amateur football game. The system won’t work if it is:
• Pick up games/amateur play.
• Major league(WCS)
Then there need to be some effort to allow people to rise through the ranks and if we can’t see a clear progression, the community leaders and folks who run the leagues need to look into it. It is less about protecting a region and more about providing a clear path for players to take on the way to WCS.
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On August 14 2013 22:16 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 22:13 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 14 2013 22:08 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 21:56 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 14 2013 21:52 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 21:47 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 14 2013 21:43 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 21:38 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 14 2013 21:35 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 21:30 lichter wrote:
[quote]
WCS isn't meant to be another WCG So what, exactly, is WCS ment to be? And what, exactly, is it ment to promote? It is meant to be GSL/OSL clone to be run at Europe and America. With only koreans? Why? Again, what is it ment to promote that GSL isn't already promoting? With only koreans? What? And remind me, what exactly GSL is promoting? Can i answer your questions with counter questions too? How long can we go on only doing counter questions? Is it possible you will answer my questions with an answer one of these days? (To use the old kinder garden pharse: "I asked first. What exactly it's promoting? You can't answer that questions with asking me what it's promoting. I don't know what exactly WCS is promoting or I wouldn't ask.) (Edit: Too many spelling errors) I claim it does not promote anything special (something, that GSL is not promoting, for instance), but then again i lack the knowledge and have no idea what GSL promotes (and what WCS meant to promote). Ah, that explains the questions. And leave my original question. What exactly is WCS ment to promote? Anyone else wanna jump in and try to answer? Cloaken to the rescue: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1hkvoq/we_are_kim_phan_and_kevin_johnson_of_the_blizzard/cavc6ckhttp://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1hkvoq/we_are_kim_phan_and_kevin_johnson_of_the_blizzard/cavbr1t This proves what I'm saying about Blizzard's goal to establish a Masters type tournament btw.
Thanks for linking that. Now I know I'm not alone in my view about this. 90% of the posts on that page brings the same points as I have tried here.
I think WCS failed when they chose their name. WC kinda implies a World Cup and that kinda aplies participants from all over the world not just one country (yeah, I know americans love to call american sports 'world this and world that' but all us outside of america is just confused like hell about it. Especially since it actually was a World Cup last year. They should had rebranded it al when they decided to abandon the idea of a World Cup and I might had have an easier time to try and understand what they were aiming at.
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On August 14 2013 22:23 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Classic skiing was also dominated by Austria for a long time. Was that bad for everybody? No it wasn't because people starting looking at what the Austrian skiing team was doing, their training methods, the thoughts going into it, the science behind it, etc. Now the playing field is a lot more even.
There's a chance that the same thing happens to SC2. The reasons are the exact same - Koreans aren't better because they're Korean but because their training environment is simply better, their ladder is perfect for training, their teamhouses provide them with the best conditions to practice and perform, their teams take care of players, etc.
I think you are thinking of apline skiing. If so this is correct but the same region lock and methods as described in my norwegian example was also implemented here to counteract this. Austrians are still a very strong country in alpine sports but the sport is now global with stars from many countries.
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Austria24417 Posts
Again, you're talking about a soccer worldcup type of tournament which Blizzard stated they didn't want WCS to be
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On August 14 2013 22:39 opisska wrote:
So, dear region-lockers, let me ask this way: Blizzard has already said that they would like to push the whole WCS eventually to be offline. Will that solve your problem? But what if Koreans just move into US/Europe permanently and continue playing even completely offline? What will you require then - citizenship? Permanent residency? Or do you just want Blizzard to hire a team of antropologists to judge if the guy isn't too Korean to play?
The whole idea of region lock is absurd in the globalised world. Maybe it will work in US, because it is notoriously difficult to move there, but there is very little you can do in Europe to prevent all the Koreans to just become Europeans at almost any level barring actual citizenship. But do you really want nationalistic bureaocracy to be the deciding factor in esports competiton?
And a last question: if you want a region lock, that means you are also OK with a region lock in Korea, right? No more foreigners in Korea and a completely closed scene like in late BW?
The last part is fine. Our heroes will get their chanse to prove themselves in the world finals anyways (and likely loose).
If it is required to get rid of the current situation to demand citizenship then so be it. It worked fine in WCS EU 2012 so I see no problem with it. I'm open to discuss allowing permanent residents tho (like Polt and ForGG etc). That might be Ok seeing that they live in the region and all but if that means we'll see a virtual emigration of koreans across the world then I think something else is fundamentally wrong with the korean scene and that this should be adressed instead (and if this happened I'd instantly shut the regional tournaments to citizens only).
That's just how I would handle it and what I would be happy with since you asked my opinion.
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On August 14 2013 08:12 IntoTheheart wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 05:57 docvoc wrote:On August 14 2013 05:51 NightOfTheDead wrote:On August 14 2013 05:45 Koerage wrote:
you realize Fionn named JD JaeKong just so he'd stop getting 2nd places? Second places are now a bad thing? Oo When you're the Dong they are. Wouldn't they be better? Stork was the most famous BW Kong Liner ever with soooooooooo many Silvers.
Yellow invented the Kong line.
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EPT
