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On August 14 2013 21:07 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 21:01 kollin wrote:On August 14 2013 20:46 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On August 14 2013 20:40 Sissors wrote:On August 14 2013 20:21 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On August 14 2013 20:20 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 20:14 NarutO wrote:On August 14 2013 20:11 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 20:09 NarutO wrote:On August 14 2013 20:04 Ohforfsake wrote:
[quote]
Who is participating in that tournament? Liquidpedia states nothing. Top 1 / 2 / 3 (depending on country) best of the country. The qualifiers are currently taking place. Do you have a link you could direct me too? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/World_Cyber_Games_2013/Qualifiers Very few players listed there. No explanations why certain players were chosen and where is Sweden? Norway? Any Nordic country? Seems to be a lot missing here.. (Turkey??? Japan?) Because WCG has become a joke in recent years... nobody cares about it. That's exactly the point we were making against region locking. I can also point you to enough tournaments without region lock which aren't exactly big. But can you point to a gaming tournament with region lock that manages to do as well as WCS has? LCS See, iNcontroL brought up a fantastic point last night on ITG. People like to point at LoL's viewer numbers and go "urgh see that? sc2 ded". But what they don't actually realize is that they're looking at a game that has what, 10-20 times the playerbase? Maybe even more? I'm sure someone can do the math if they so desire, but a rough estimate will do. When you take this fact into account, it makes the discrepancy seem a lot smaller. Now I haven't seen any estimates on LCS' viewership, or maybe Riot releases exact numbers, I don't know, but I highly doubt that their regional finals pull in anywhere near 10-20 times the viewership that WCS did.
Here you have both Riots record and Valves TI3 numbers.
http://www.gamespot.com/news/the-international-hits-1-million-concurrent-viewers-6412911
(1 Mil stream viewers for TI3, 1,1 Mil for Riot)
Swedish channel 6 who send it on national tv should be added to this as well. Their 5th game of the finals holds the record of highest viewers number all time on their web (no idea what that means in term of numbers tho. Might be 10, might be 3 million. 9 Mil people could theoretically view it on that channel however and they beat american TV series like anger management).
I would say that these numbers beat SC2 with aprox the number correlating to numbers of players that differs.
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On August 14 2013 21:12 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 21:11 rearee wrote:On August 14 2013 21:07 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On August 14 2013 21:01 kollin wrote:On August 14 2013 20:46 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On August 14 2013 20:40 Sissors wrote:On August 14 2013 20:21 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On August 14 2013 20:20 Ohforfsake wrote:Very few players listed there. No explanations why certain players were chosen and where is Sweden? Norway? Any Nordic country? Seems to be a lot missing here.. (Turkey??? Japan?) Because WCG has become a joke in recent years... nobody cares about it. That's exactly the point we were making against region locking. I can also point you to enough tournaments without region lock which aren't exactly big. But can you point to a gaming tournament with region lock that manages to do as well as WCS has? LCS See, iNcontroL brought up a fantastic point last night on ITG. People like to point at LoL's viewer numbers and go "urgh see that? sc2 ded". But what they don't actually realize is that they're looking at a game that has what, 10-20 times the playerbase? Maybe even more? I'm sure someone can do the math if they so desire, but a rough estimate will do. When you take this fact into account, it makes the discrepancy seem a lot smaller. Now I haven't seen any estimates on LCS' viewership, or maybe Riot releases exact numbers, I don't know, but I highly doubt that their regional finals pull in anywhere near 10-20 times the viewership that WCS did. You also can't really draw a direct correlation between playerbase and viewership. Expecting 10-20 times the numbers is unfair And why exactly is that?
Because Starcraft 2 attracts a much more hardcore audience, while LoL has a lot more casual players that don't even know their game is played competitively.
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Austria24422 Posts
On August 14 2013 21:25 [STXSoul]INnoVation wrote:
WCS regions should be locked to nationality in my opinion,
I... too good.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On August 14 2013 21:05 Ohforfsake wrote:Show nested quote +
Yes it is possible to be successful, but that's not what WCS is meant to be.
Say what? WCS isn't ment to be successful? That explains A LOT.
WCS isn't meant to be another WCG
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On August 14 2013 21:22 rearee wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 21:12 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 20:59 rearee wrote:
What's the difference between the koreans dominating every foreigner at the global finals or them dominating every foreigner at the regionals?
I don't really see why people advocate the latter while condemning the former. I want to see who is the best player in Europe tho. If you want to have an explanation for that you will have to dig into sports psychology. It's easier to root for your hometown team than someone on the other side of the earth (literally). If I wanna know who's the best korean I'll watch GSL or the world finals and get the answer. I do not understand why there is a need for more tournaments than those two to determine who's the best korean. Now here's the counter question. Why do you have something against a European tournament with just europeans? Or American tournament with just americans? You can watch GSL and the world finals to see your koreans at any time while the rest of us watch our regional tournaments. (If we just had any) (We're on the same side)
Oh 
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On August 14 2013 21:30 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 21:05 Ohforfsake wrote:
Yes it is possible to be successful, but that's not what WCS is meant to be.
Say what? WCS isn't ment to be successful? That explains A LOT. WCS isn't meant to be another WCG
So what, exactly, is WCS ment to be? And what, exactly, is it ment to promote?
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 14 2013 21:35 Ohforfsake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 21:30 lichter wrote:On August 14 2013 21:05 Ohforfsake wrote:
Yes it is possible to be successful, but that's not what WCS is meant to be.
Say what? WCS isn't ment to be successful? That explains A LOT. WCS isn't meant to be another WCG So what, exactly, is WCS ment to be? And what, exactly, is it ment to promote?
It is meant to be GSL/OSL clone to be run at Europe and America.
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I don't care about big numbers really. coming from a game where having 2500 people online meant a lot, i think having these numbers of people actually interested in sc2 means that we're really fine.
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Austria24422 Posts
On August 14 2013 21:35 Ohforfsake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 21:30 lichter wrote:On August 14 2013 21:05 Ohforfsake wrote:
Yes it is possible to be successful, but that's not what WCS is meant to be.
Say what? WCS isn't ment to be successful? That explains A LOT. WCS isn't meant to be another WCG So what, exactly, is WCS ment to be? And what, exactly, is it ment to promote?
The Global Finals are meant to be what the Shanghai Masters is in Tennis.
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On August 14 2013 21:40 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 21:35 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 21:30 lichter wrote:On August 14 2013 21:05 Ohforfsake wrote:
Yes it is possible to be successful, but that's not what WCS is meant to be.
Say what? WCS isn't ment to be successful? That explains A LOT. WCS isn't meant to be another WCG So what, exactly, is WCS ment to be? And what, exactly, is it ment to promote? The Global Finals are meant to be what the Shanghai Masters is in Tennis.
I have no idea what that is. Don't really follow tennis and only know what grands slams and the olypics are in tennis. Never heard of any Shanghai Masters.
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On August 14 2013 21:38 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 21:35 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 21:30 lichter wrote:On August 14 2013 21:05 Ohforfsake wrote:
Yes it is possible to be successful, but that's not what WCS is meant to be.
Say what? WCS isn't ment to be successful? That explains A LOT. WCS isn't meant to be another WCG So what, exactly, is WCS ment to be? And what, exactly, is it ment to promote? It is meant to be GSL/OSL clone to be run at Europe and America.
With only koreans? Why? Again, what is it ment to promote that GSL isn't already promoting?
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Austria24422 Posts
On August 14 2013 21:42 Ohforfsake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 21:40 DarkLordOlli wrote:On August 14 2013 21:35 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 21:30 lichter wrote:On August 14 2013 21:05 Ohforfsake wrote:
Yes it is possible to be successful, but that's not what WCS is meant to be.
Say what? WCS isn't ment to be successful? That explains A LOT. WCS isn't meant to be another WCG So what, exactly, is WCS ment to be? And what, exactly, is it ment to promote? The Global Finals are meant to be what the Shanghai Masters is in Tennis. I have no idea what that is. Don't really follow tennis and only know what grands slams and the olypics are in tennis. Never heard of any Shanghai Masters.
Ah sorry, not the Shanghai Masters. What I meant was the ATP World Tour Finals
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATP_World_Tour_Finals
TL;DR: it's the 8 best performing players of the entire season playing in one tournament.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 14 2013 21:43 Ohforfsake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 21:38 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 14 2013 21:35 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 21:30 lichter wrote:On August 14 2013 21:05 Ohforfsake wrote:
Yes it is possible to be successful, but that's not what WCS is meant to be.
Say what? WCS isn't ment to be successful? That explains A LOT. WCS isn't meant to be another WCG So what, exactly, is WCS ment to be? And what, exactly, is it ment to promote? It is meant to be GSL/OSL clone to be run at Europe and America. With only koreans? Why? Again, what is it ment to promote that GSL isn't already promoting?
With only koreans? What? And remind me, what exactly GSL is promoting?
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On August 14 2013 21:47 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 21:43 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 21:38 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 14 2013 21:35 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 21:30 lichter wrote:On August 14 2013 21:05 Ohforfsake wrote:
Yes it is possible to be successful, but that's not what WCS is meant to be.
Say what? WCS isn't ment to be successful? That explains A LOT. WCS isn't meant to be another WCG So what, exactly, is WCS ment to be? And what, exactly, is it ment to promote? It is meant to be GSL/OSL clone to be run at Europe and America. With only koreans? Why? Again, what is it ment to promote that GSL isn't already promoting? With only koreans? What? And remind me, what exactly GSL is promoting?
Can i answer your questions with counter questions too? How long can we go on only doing counter questions? Is it possible you will answer my questions with an answer one of these days?
(To use the old kinder garden pharse: "I asked first. What exactly it's promoting? You can't answer that questions with asking me what it's promoting. I don't know what exactly WCS is promoting or I wouldn't ask.)
(Edit: Too many spelling errors)
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 14 2013 21:52 Ohforfsake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 21:47 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 14 2013 21:43 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 21:38 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 14 2013 21:35 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 21:30 lichter wrote:On August 14 2013 21:05 Ohforfsake wrote:
Yes it is possible to be successful, but that's not what WCS is meant to be.
Say what? WCS isn't ment to be successful? That explains A LOT. WCS isn't meant to be another WCG So what, exactly, is WCS ment to be? And what, exactly, is it ment to promote? It is meant to be GSL/OSL clone to be run at Europe and America. With only koreans? Why? Again, what is it ment to promote that GSL isn't already promoting? With only koreans? What? And remind me, what exactly GSL is promoting? Can i answer your questions with counter questions too? How long can we go on only doing counter questions? Is it possible you will answer my questions with an answer one of these days? (To use the old kinder garden pharse: "I asked first. What exactly it's promoting? You can't answer that questions with asking me what it's promoting. I don't know what exactly WCS is promoting or I wouldn't ask.) (Edit: Too many spelling errors)
I claim it does not promote anything special (something, that GSL is not promoting, for instance), but then again i lack the knowledge and have no idea what GSL promotes (and what WCS meant to promote).
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
Anyone living in Korea can play in the GSL. It isn't region locked.
People forget that when Blizz decided to implement WCS, it screwed over Koreans. They limited the prize pool, removed prize money from lower tournaments and lower finishing positions, and limited the number of tournaments that Korea can run.
So no, WCS is not biased towards Koreans.
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Jaekong's 6pool against Scarlett was the most infuriated I've ever been in SC2 history lol. Great writeup!
Don't forget Goswser's current results as well though.
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On August 14 2013 21:47 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 21:42 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 21:40 DarkLordOlli wrote:On August 14 2013 21:35 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 21:30 lichter wrote:On August 14 2013 21:05 Ohforfsake wrote:
Yes it is possible to be successful, but that's not what WCS is meant to be.
Say what? WCS isn't ment to be successful? That explains A LOT. WCS isn't meant to be another WCG So what, exactly, is WCS ment to be? And what, exactly, is it ment to promote? The Global Finals are meant to be what the Shanghai Masters is in Tennis. I have no idea what that is. Don't really follow tennis and only know what grands slams and the olypics are in tennis. Never heard of any Shanghai Masters. Ah sorry, not the Shanghai Masters. What I meant was the ATP World Tour Finals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATP_World_Tour_FinalsTL;DR: it's the 8 best performing players of the entire season playing in one tournament.
Ah, that one I actually did know. Usually played in Dubai. Anyways, since tennis seems a favorite sport to compare to for some reason I'll try to answer you.
Tennis do not have the same challanges as Sc2. There is no 1 country that totally dominates the sport and there havn't been for decades (might have been in the early days I donno). There is a nice spread among the top players with every continent on the planet present (Asia is a bit low but 1 or 2 exists from there too in grand slams). Since the sport has been like this with a good spread for a long time there has been no reason for a ruling body over the sport to step in and take action. Interest is naturally spread around the would because all parts of the world have top players and top tournaments.
Here is another sport for you tho. Nordic cross country skiing. The sport is aproximately the same size as tennis (might be slightly bigger). One country is completely dominating it (Norway) and have been for a very long time. (This sport is actually a very good example to study because it's so simular to SC2 and korean dominance). What happened here however is that early on the international organisation with Norway in the front realized that this is not good for the sport on an international level. Even Norway who dominates it want the rest of the world to be interested and see their dominance. So a number of restrictions was created. Any country can only use 3 (I think) athlets at the world championship. On to of this the previous champions country has a free card (so Norway almost always can field 4). It might be 4 and 5 instead as numbers I can't remeber off hand but the principle stays the same. On top of this Norway has actively encouraged its trainers (not athlets) to go work for other countries and help them catch up. The sport is growing every year as a result and last World Championships hosted 74 countries.
Many other sports have a system simular to this as well. Now, what's so wrong with it?
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On August 14 2013 21:59 lichter wrote:
Anyone living in Korea can play in the GSL. It isn't region locked.
People forget that when Blizz decided to implement WCS, it screwed over Koreans. They limited the prize pool, removed prize money from lower tournaments and lower finishing positions, and limited the number of tournaments that Korea can run.
So no, WCS is not biased towards Koreans.
That's the definition of region lock. I have no problem with Polt playing in WCS NA when he lives in the US.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 14 2013 22:05 Ohforfsake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 21:47 DarkLordOlli wrote:On August 14 2013 21:42 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 21:40 DarkLordOlli wrote:On August 14 2013 21:35 Ohforfsake wrote:On August 14 2013 21:30 lichter wrote:On August 14 2013 21:05 Ohforfsake wrote:
Yes it is possible to be successful, but that's not what WCS is meant to be.
Say what? WCS isn't ment to be successful? That explains A LOT. WCS isn't meant to be another WCG So what, exactly, is WCS ment to be? And what, exactly, is it ment to promote? The Global Finals are meant to be what the Shanghai Masters is in Tennis. I have no idea what that is. Don't really follow tennis and only know what grands slams and the olypics are in tennis. Never heard of any Shanghai Masters. Ah sorry, not the Shanghai Masters. What I meant was the ATP World Tour Finals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATP_World_Tour_FinalsTL;DR: it's the 8 best performing players of the entire season playing in one tournament. Ah, that one I actually did know. Usually played in Dubai. Anyways, since tennis seems a favorite sport to compare to for some reason I'll try to answer you. Tennis do not have the same challanges as Sc2. There is no 1 country that totally dominates the sport and there havn't been for decades (might have been in the early days I donno). There is a nice spread among the top players with every continent on the planet present (Asia is a bit low but 1 or 2 exists from there too in grand slams). Since the sport has been like this with a good spread for a long time there has been no reason for a ruling body over the sport to step in and take action. Interest is naturally spread around the would because all parts of the world have top players and top tournaments. Here is another sport for you tho. Nordic cross country skiing. The sport is aproximately the same size as tennis (might be slightly bigger). One country is completely dominating it (Norway) and have been for a very long time. (This sport is actually a very good example to study because it's so simular to SC2 and korean dominance). What happened here however is that early on the international organisation with Norway in the front realized that this is not good for the sport on an international level. Even Norway who dominates it want the rest of the world to be interested and see their dominance. So a number of restrictions was created. Any country can only use 3 (I think) athlets at the world championship. On to of this the previous champions country has a free card (so Norway almost always can field 4). It might be 4 and 5 instead as numbers I can't remeber off hand but the principle stays the same. On top of this Norway has actively encouraged its trainers (not athlets) to go work for other countries and help them catch up. The sport is growing every year as a result and last World Championships hosted 74 countries. Many other sports have a system simular to this as well. Now, what's so wrong with it?
Lemme guess: ALL world championships were won by Norwegians in rather dominating fashion? If not, then your example is bad one, because it still does not show a clear dominance of 1 country over rest.
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EPT
