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1.
+1
2. all races have separate upgrades for air. Terran already has combined armor upgrade. This change will give T an advantage in switching between fully upgraded armies that require very different counters from opponent. Also:
P upgrades: 5 (weapons, armor, shield, air weapons, air armor)
Z upgrades: 5 (melee, ranged, armor, air attack, air armor)
T upgrades: 5 (infantry attack, infantry armor, ground attack, air attack, mech armor)
3. I'd rather see something between full energy and current state. This change feels way too good.
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Didnt they opt to not use that mech change because BC's became too strong late game?
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To all the Protoss players in this thread that complain about Viper buff i sincerly hope that this change will go live so you will get rolled over when your 2 base allin that you do every game vs Zerg fails 
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Why don't they really tackle the "mech" issue? all that buff does is to a) make a switch to air tech more smooth or in other words make it less of a risk/ivestment when transitioning and b) vikings won't be useless when you see them getting air..
It is generally good (TvZ might be useful I suppose to react to a Blord tech switch) but they aren't tackling the main issues. Accessibility of a ground AA mech unit that doesn't cost 300/200/6supply (or going starport) + not enough firepower given the loss of mobility!!! I mean, just look at SC2. There are literally a parade of units out there that were designed to kill tanks. For one I actually don't understand this because the tanks are almost an extinct species and secondly they have this fetish of showing off unit designs that kill tank lines... which dont actually exist in SC2 outside of TvT.
I mean just take a look at this list:
-Warhounds, vs mech dmg, for breaking through tank lines (They showed a beta HOTS demo showing this scenario
-Tempests, protoss guardian for breaking through tank lines (They showed a beta HOTS demo showing this scenario
-Swarmhosts, spam free units to slowly chipping away through tank lines (They showed a beta HOTS demo showing this scenario
-Vipers, renders tanks/thors useless and effectively makes mech a melee composition with the occasional abducts. (They showed a beta HOTS demo showing this scenario
Then we have our old friends, the immortals, voidrays, carriers (!), broodlords, ultralisks (are surprisingly good vs tanks), archons... zealots..
I swear when they design units, the first thing that pops into there head is.. how does this unit break siege lines? A 200/200 protoss deathball sound more terrifying to me. But on the otherhand, see just how many units are suddenly viable and back into the meta if mech was viable. This is the main point so many people have been making for the past 3 years of SC2. All the protoss players would love to actually tech to carriers for once.
There are so many ways on the top of my head that could make mech more viable while relatively maintaining the relationships those hard countering units have against other units. Even for vipers.
Changing binding cloud to halve the range (so the marines wont just auto pilot out) while increasing the AOE of cloud would be much better than what they are doing right now. You know they could maybe give a bonus to zerg under the cloud so it has two uses. One for minimising the enemy by halving the range while the other use could be that being under it could give you an armor bonus (+1? +2?) from oncoming attacks. Binding cloud needs to be that definitive spell like dark swarm.. yet no pro gamers will get them because against bio its literally useless unless you have 20 ultras rushing at the bio ball with +10 binding clouds ready.
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On August 13 2013 08:38 DoNuTs84 wrote:To all the Protoss players in this thread that complain about Viper buff i sincerly hope that this change will go live so you will get rolled over when your 2 base allin that you do every game vs Zerg fails
What about Protoss players that don't 2 base allin ever and are legitimately concerned about balance? You think they all deserve it?
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It is beyond me how in the same post blizzard can recognize just how weak mech is and then at the same time even fathom to give vipers full starting energy off creation.
This is mind boggling. And the viper change will never go through.
The armory also changes not much in mech vs Protoss. Mech vs Zerg's only problem right now is...*drumroll* the viper...the swarmhost...armory change does nothing while the viper change basically kills mech lol.
The reason the armory change does nothing is because your upgrades don't matter if 15 of your tanks aren't firing from the 8 blinding clouds Zerg just will start with now.
And swarmhosts are not an issue IF you can turtle to 10+ ravens...but that in itself is an issue because it makes the game incredibly boring for all players/spectators because the Zerg is literally streaming free units across the map and the Terran is forced to wait for that many ravens. Something has to change with the swarmhost if they don't want "mech to turtle."
Myself and other mech players have posted numerous times on the blizzard forums offering them suggestions on how to make mech better, especially in TvP, such as toning down the immortal, reducing armory price to 100/50 so Terran can upgrade their units earlier on in the game...
The issues with Terran armory upgrades vs Protoss is not necessarily that they are too expensive, but the fact you cannot begin even upgrading your mech units until you've already had multiple factories and other units created, whereas Protoss will already be on 1/1 or sometimes even 2/2 upgrades.
All of this is falling on deaf ears...instead we're getting a patch proposed by David Kim that they "recognize mech is weak" and therefore "are going to make the viper even better."
Um...something is very wrong here.
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On August 13 2013 08:43 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 08:41 Shebuha wrote:On August 13 2013 08:38 DoNuTs84 wrote:To all the Protoss players in this thread that complain about Viper buff i sincerly hope that this change will go live so you will get rolled over when your 2 base allin that you do every game vs Zerg fails What about Protoss players that don't 2 base allin ever and are legitimately concerned about balance? You think they all deserve it? Not to mention that if a 2 base all-in fails, the Protoss is probably going to die regardless of Vipers being involved... ... that's why they're called "all-ins".
Agreed.
EDIT: ^^^^^ Holy shit I just read an Avilo post and agreed with it. Yeah I don't see that Viper buff going through.
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I'm sorry, but the vipers make basically trying to go mech really derpy to really do.... >_>
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On August 13 2013 08:37 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Didnt they opt to not use that mech change because BC's became too strong late game?
That might be different with new Warp Prism speed, Tempests, higher energy Vipers, etc.
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On August 13 2013 08:44 zhurai wrote:
I'm sorry, but the vipers make basically trying to go mech really derpy to really do.... >_>
Maybe some kind of Ghost mech might be good against late Zerg. But I'm totally just conjecturing.
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Balancing TvZ is pretty simple honestly, people overthinking it way too much.
Mines are too cheap. Make them cost more stuff. Make tanks cost less.
= Profit
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Stop buffing air to fix mech's problems please, the change to vipers just makes it even worse, all air should not be the end-game for a mech player.
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blizzard does not know what they are doing.
they are really pissing me off
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On August 13 2013 08:47 Dingobloo wrote:
Stop buffing air to fix mech's problems please, the change to vipers just makes it even worse, all air should not be the end-game for a mech player.
Every mech player should ultimately be looking to go air (except against protoss, but that match up is kinda hopeless). This makes it easier.
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On August 13 2013 08:02 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 07:57 Plansix wrote:On August 13 2013 07:52 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 13 2013 07:49 Sated wrote:On August 13 2013 07:46 Plansix wrote:On August 13 2013 07:44 halfaspider wrote:
I don't understand how anyone can pretend like widow mines aren't a huge problem when ONE SHOT of a widow mine often kills 15-20 banelings-- well over 10x the cost of the widow mine with essentially no micro required. Just nerf them. Get better as Starcraft 2 and that won't happen as much. Such all-or-nothing units are bad design. Mines, Oracles, etc. HotS is a clusterfuck compared to WoL. WoL had balance issues, but they would've been relatively easy to fix compared to how hard it would be to fix the design problems that HotS has... I've felt that way since HOTS was released. And don't forget the Viper. With Abduct it is an all or nothing unit. The most important unit on the field right now in TvZ is the Widow, it does the most damage, for both races. How Widow Mines hit decides the battle. I just watched Targa vs ForGG and the hits were very unpredictable, the game has become a coin flip. Either the Mines do a lot of damage to Zerg, or they don't and worse do a lot of damage to Terran. They have way too big an influence on the game and are a terrible substitution for the Siege Tank. Sadly, Blizzard said they believe Mines require more skill than Tanks. All right, and we have moved to design discussions, so this is not longer as awesome as it was. Let the design hate train begin, hopefully the release the test map soon. You might see it as hate, but it comes from a love of SC2. I don't play SC2 much anymore, but I watch it. And I watch a lot less TvZ than I used to because I don't enjoy Bio/Mine/Medivac as much as Marine/Tank/Medivac. What did Blizzard put in the cut scene for HOTS? Was it a bunch of Ultras and Lings charging a statue defended by Widow Mines burrowing and unburrowing and Marines? Nope, it was Siege Tanks and Marines. Because Siege Tanks are epic. They are fun to watch and fun to use. And they are gone in TvZ, save for the times Zerg does some kind of timing.
lol, your logic for cinematics is hilarious. That shot probably was nearing final render before the game devs even had a clue of what they were gonna add to terran for hots as far as units, seeing a shreder suddenly pop up in the middle of that ultraling charge would be kind of weird don't you think?
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On August 13 2013 08:45 Shantastic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 08:37 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Didnt they opt to not use that mech change because BC's became too strong late game? That might be different with new Warp Prism speed, Tempests, higher energy Vipers, etc.
When was it last tried? I thought it was already during HotS...
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Make WM's more expensive or lower their damage and make them 1 supply (so they dont one hit banes f.e)
Buff tanks damage.
mech will never be viable when protoss air and immortal is so good against it.
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On August 13 2013 08:48 jj33 wrote:
blizzard does not know what they are doing.
they are really pissing me off
It would be nice if they acted more like their LoL dev counterparts. I mean if the community wants it, why not? game is for us not for them..
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EPT
