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On August 13 2013 07:44 halfaspider wrote:
I don't understand how anyone can pretend like widow mines aren't a huge problem when ONE SHOT of a widow mine often kills 15-20 banelings-- well over 10x the cost of the widow mine with essentially no micro required. Just nerf them.
Get better as Starcraft 2 and that won't happen as much.
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On August 13 2013 07:44 halfaspider wrote:
I don't understand how anyone can pretend like widow mines aren't a huge problem when ONE SHOT of a widow mine often kills 15-20 banelings-- well over 10x the cost of the widow mine with essentially no micro required. Just nerf them.
Maybe the rocket cant hit banelings but if banelings are within aoe they should get damage.
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Ireland628 Posts
Why are Terran and Zerg being Buffed when its toss that are not winning any tournaments?, toss buff?
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The viper change actually makes sense. When they spawn, Vipers are the only unit in the game with absolutely nothing to do other than use Consume, which gives it ... more energy. Templar can feedback with their starting energy, ghosts can snipe, infestors can throw infested terrans (even without the upgrade), ravens can autoturret, sentries can force field (and attack), etc. I don't know about giving Vipers FULL energy, but currently they are the silliest unit in the game until about 30 seconds after they've spawned.
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On August 13 2013 07:47 paddyz wrote:
Why are Terran and Zerg being Buffed when its toss that are not winning any tournaments?, toss buff?
didnt toss just win WCS EU and was in the finals of WCS/OSL KR?
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On August 13 2013 07:49 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 07:46 Plansix wrote:On August 13 2013 07:44 halfaspider wrote:
I don't understand how anyone can pretend like widow mines aren't a huge problem when ONE SHOT of a widow mine often kills 15-20 banelings-- well over 10x the cost of the widow mine with essentially no micro required. Just nerf them. Get better as Starcraft 2 and that won't happen as much. Such all-or-nothing units are bad design. Mines, Oracles, etc. HotS is a clusterfuck compared to WoL. WoL had balance issues, but they would've been relatively easy to fix compared to how hard it would be to fix the design problems that HotS has...
I've felt that way since HOTS was released. And don't forget the Viper. With Abduct it is an all or nothing unit.
The most important unit on the field right now in TvZ is the Widow, it does the most damage, for both races.
How Widow Mines hit decides the battle. I just watched Targa vs ForGG and the hits were very unpredictable, the game has become a coin flip. Either the Mines do a lot of damage to Zerg, or they don't and worse do a lot of damage to Terran.
They have way too big an influence on the game and are a terrible substitution for the Siege Tank. Sadly, Blizzard said they believe Mines require more skill than Tanks.
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that's it, lets just bring back spider mines
everyone will like it better I promise
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Overseer: Can be cool. I'm not good enough in Zerg to talk about the muta + overseer problem in micromanagement. Speed upgrade was a must have in this case and should still be one, let's see if it helps it a lot.
Viper: Weird buff. I can understand a buff to this unit, but it's just weird. Like the HB 2 cargo space, kind of badly made tweak, but let's see.
Mech: Weird too. It'll make TvT an only mech MU. (Since on many maps, only way to go bio is transitionning into sky before the mecher, unless you killed him fast) But I can be okay with that if Biomech / mech comps come back into TvP/TvZ.
TvP: Huge buff. Maybe with some tweaks in the builds, some biomech styles can make reapparance. But I doubt it. BioHB was a timing question, it's still is with this tweak. Transitionning to ghost is still a better/easier and more economic option. Maybe a "Mech+marines" thing can come into play into a ghostmech style.
For pure mech, it'll be easier for sure, But i don't think it'll change anything about the need to turtle hard until 200pop of ghost/sky/mech, since Tanks will still be a trashunit. In fact this is a buff to skyterran more than mech.
For TvZ: It's still the same. Buff to skyterran, nothing to pure mech IMO. And nothing to biomech.
Apart for the overseer, I just don't like theses changes, not at all.
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On August 13 2013 07:49 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 07:46 Plansix wrote:On August 13 2013 07:44 halfaspider wrote:
I don't understand how anyone can pretend like widow mines aren't a huge problem when ONE SHOT of a widow mine often kills 15-20 banelings-- well over 10x the cost of the widow mine with essentially no micro required. Just nerf them. Get better as Starcraft 2 and that won't happen as much. Such all-or-nothing units are bad design. Mines, Oracles, etc. HotS is a clusterfuck compared to WoL. WoL had balance issues, but they would've been relatively easy to fix compared to how hard it would be to fix the design problems that HotS has...
Can't agree more, tbh. Balancing is a pain in HotS due to the "all-or-nothing units", as you name them (which is correct).
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On August 13 2013 07:46 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 07:44 halfaspider wrote:
I don't understand how anyone can pretend like widow mines aren't a huge problem when ONE SHOT of a widow mine often kills 15-20 banelings-- well over 10x the cost of the widow mine with essentially no micro required. Just nerf them. Get better as Starcraft 2 and that won't happen as much.
It happens to all the best zerg in the world, let's be honest here. If you split and send small pack of ling they just get killed before the mine is trigger, and bio/mines is so much mobile that they choose where to fight, ie in the choke area where you can't split. Creep gets clean with scan, ie baneling can't connect with the bio at all, and medivacs allow you to emergency boost away to save your bio army if you get overwhelmed. Sound familiar? This is how every TvZ is play on the highest level,even for SoulKey, Jaedong Life or RoRo.
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On August 13 2013 07:46 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 07:44 halfaspider wrote:
I don't understand how anyone can pretend like widow mines aren't a huge problem when ONE SHOT of a widow mine often kills 15-20 banelings-- well over 10x the cost of the widow mine with essentially no micro required. Just nerf them. Get better as Starcraft 2 and that won't happen as much.
I play protoss, but all I see zvt is the terran pushing and pushing waiting for the zerg player to slip up once so they can get that lucky widow mine shot that wins them the game.
And even with super good splitting, the widow mine pretty much always kills more than enough units to be brokenly cost-effective if its in a big engagement.
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On August 13 2013 07:52 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 07:49 Sated wrote:On August 13 2013 07:46 Plansix wrote:On August 13 2013 07:44 halfaspider wrote:
I don't understand how anyone can pretend like widow mines aren't a huge problem when ONE SHOT of a widow mine often kills 15-20 banelings-- well over 10x the cost of the widow mine with essentially no micro required. Just nerf them. Get better as Starcraft 2 and that won't happen as much. Such all-or-nothing units are bad design. Mines, Oracles, etc. HotS is a clusterfuck compared to WoL. WoL had balance issues, but they would've been relatively easy to fix compared to how hard it would be to fix the design problems that HotS has... I've felt that way since HOTS was released. The most important unit on the field right now in TvZ is the Widow, it does the most damage, for both races. How Widow Mines hit decides the battle. I just watched Targa vs ForGG and the hits were very unpredictable, the game has become a coin flip. Either the Mines do a lot of damage to Zerg, or they don't and worse do a lot of damage to Terran. They have way to big an influence on the game.
I always liked Widow Mines, they introduce the good-kind of volatility, like Spider mines and dud-prone-scarabs.
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On August 13 2013 07:52 BronzeKnee wrote:
I've felt that way since HOTS was released.
The most important unit on the field right now in TvZ is the Widow, it does the most damage, for both races.
How Widow Mines hit decides the battle. I just watched Targa vs ForGG and the hits were very unpredictable, the game has become a coin flip. Either the Mines do a lot of damage to Zerg, or they don't and worse do a lot of damage to Terran.
They have way too big an influence on the game and are a terrible substitution for the Siege Tank. Sadly, Blizzard said they believe Mines require more skill than Tanks.
It's funny, this was also the case for TvP in Brood War and nobody complained about that.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
People like to use "Race X or Y doesn't have any bonjwas" or "Race X or Y doesn't win tournaments" as evidence that race X or Y is underpowered, but that's a stupid way to measure balance. There were six Protoss players in the Top 8 of WCS EU, for example - the fact that they didn't happen to win 5 more tournaments over the last few months doesn't make the race underpowered. In a hypothetical scenario, a tournament has 24 Protoss players, 4 Zerg and 4 Terrans, but the finals still end up being TvZ. Is Protoss underpowered? Of course not.
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On August 13 2013 07:54 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 07:52 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 13 2013 07:49 Sated wrote:On August 13 2013 07:46 Plansix wrote:On August 13 2013 07:44 halfaspider wrote:
I don't understand how anyone can pretend like widow mines aren't a huge problem when ONE SHOT of a widow mine often kills 15-20 banelings-- well over 10x the cost of the widow mine with essentially no micro required. Just nerf them. Get better as Starcraft 2 and that won't happen as much. Such all-or-nothing units are bad design. Mines, Oracles, etc. HotS is a clusterfuck compared to WoL. WoL had balance issues, but they would've been relatively easy to fix compared to how hard it would be to fix the design problems that HotS has... I've felt that way since HOTS was released. The most important unit on the field right now in TvZ is the Widow, it does the most damage, for both races. How Widow Mines hit decides the battle. I just watched Targa vs ForGG and the hits were very unpredictable, the game has become a coin flip. Either the Mines do a lot of damage to Zerg, or they don't and worse do a lot of damage to Terran. They have way to big an influence on the game. I always liked Widow Mines, they introduce the good-kind of volatility, like Spider mines and dud-prone-scarabs.
I never watched BW, but my guess is that I would not have like Spider Mines or Scarabs if they were very random. My guess is that Spider Mines were used differently though, because Tanks had a role in the game.
It is a lot easier to predict the damage done by Widow Mines protecting Tanks than those that are burrowed and unburrowed quickly supporting a fast moving Bio force.
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On August 13 2013 07:52 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 07:49 Sated wrote:On August 13 2013 07:46 Plansix wrote:On August 13 2013 07:44 halfaspider wrote:
I don't understand how anyone can pretend like widow mines aren't a huge problem when ONE SHOT of a widow mine often kills 15-20 banelings-- well over 10x the cost of the widow mine with essentially no micro required. Just nerf them. Get better as Starcraft 2 and that won't happen as much. Such all-or-nothing units are bad design. Mines, Oracles, etc. HotS is a clusterfuck compared to WoL. WoL had balance issues, but they would've been relatively easy to fix compared to how hard it would be to fix the design problems that HotS has... I've felt that way since HOTS was released. And don't forget the Viper. With Abduct it is an all or nothing unit. The most important unit on the field right now in TvZ is the Widow, it does the most damage, for both races. How Widow Mines hit decides the battle. I just watched Targa vs ForGG and the hits were very unpredictable, the game has become a coin flip. Either the Mines do a lot of damage to Zerg, or they don't and worse do a lot of damage to Terran. They have way too big an influence on the game and are a terrible substitution for the Siege Tank. Sadly, Blizzard said they believe Mines require more skill than Tanks.
All right, and we have moved to design discussions, so this is not longer as awesome as it was. Let the design hate train begin, hopefully the release the test map soon.
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As a Terran i am very disappointed to see Blizzard merging air and mech attack upgrade again. The two biggest problems with Terran mech right now, is that it is very weak to air and the fact that a Protoss army can basicly a-move into Siege tanks and still win. But while a buff to mech units would be very nice, the last thing we want to see if more Sky Terran transitions. If i wanted a-move with a Deathball i would have played Protoss.
I would really like to see Blizzard buff Thor anti-air, bring back Siege upgrade and buff Siege Tank damage and last but not least buff Hydralisk hp to make up for Siege Tank buff. I don't see any Zerg players dominating and i doubt that a Hydralisk buff would break any match-ups.
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On August 13 2013 07:47 paddyz wrote:
Why are Terran and Zerg being Buffed when its toss that are not winning any tournaments?, toss buff?
Have you watched WCS at all?
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On August 13 2013 07:57 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 07:52 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 13 2013 07:49 Sated wrote:On August 13 2013 07:46 Plansix wrote:On August 13 2013 07:44 halfaspider wrote:
I don't understand how anyone can pretend like widow mines aren't a huge problem when ONE SHOT of a widow mine often kills 15-20 banelings-- well over 10x the cost of the widow mine with essentially no micro required. Just nerf them. Get better as Starcraft 2 and that won't happen as much. Such all-or-nothing units are bad design. Mines, Oracles, etc. HotS is a clusterfuck compared to WoL. WoL had balance issues, but they would've been relatively easy to fix compared to how hard it would be to fix the design problems that HotS has... I've felt that way since HOTS was released. And don't forget the Viper. With Abduct it is an all or nothing unit. The most important unit on the field right now in TvZ is the Widow, it does the most damage, for both races. How Widow Mines hit decides the battle. I just watched Targa vs ForGG and the hits were very unpredictable, the game has become a coin flip. Either the Mines do a lot of damage to Zerg, or they don't and worse do a lot of damage to Terran. They have way too big an influence on the game and are a terrible substitution for the Siege Tank. Sadly, Blizzard said they believe Mines require more skill than Tanks. All right, and we have moved to design discussions, so this is not longer as awesome as it was. Let the design hate train begin, hopefully the release the test map soon.
You might see it as hate, but it comes from a love of SC2. I don't play SC2 much anymore, but I watch it. And I watch a lot less TvZ than I used to because I don't enjoy Bio/Mine/Medivac as much as Marine/Tank/Medivac.
What did Blizzard put in the cut scene for HOTS? Was it a bunch of Ultras and Lings charging a statue defended by Widow Mines burrowing and unburrowing and Marines?
Nope, it was Siege Tanks and Marines. Because Siege Tanks are epic. They are fun to watch and fun to use. And they are gone in TvZ, save for the times Zerg does some kind of timing.
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EPT
