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On August 13 2013 07:33 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 07:25 mafaba wrote:On August 13 2013 07:08 Bagi wrote:On August 13 2013 06:59 mafaba wrote:
WHY DOES BLIZZARD WANT TO MAKE MECH VIABLE?
I dont understand, this just doesnt compute in my brain.
Why would you want to buff a playstyle which needs no micro at all and is in general extremly boring to watch?
Plenty of control involving positioning and spreading out as mech. Haha i find this really amusing. How come? If someone gave you a full 200/200, well-upgraded mech army exactly equal to your opponent's and put you up against Mvp, Ryung, Flash or Innovation, do you think you'd stand a snowballs chance in hell? Here's a hint: you wouldn't. Terran bio is all speed, terran mech is all brains and positioning. Besides, making both styles viable would create greater diversity and a better viewing experience as well as a more entertaining game to play. A lot of people enjoy the chess-like games that mech TvT produces and would also like to see strategic positioning spread to other match ups.
sc:bw mech tvt i can do without (boring); sc:bw tvz was really fun to watch. i would love to see the latter made desirable in hots.
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On August 13 2013 04:33 TheDwf wrote:
"Mech is weak" → Vipers start with full energy. Alright, it makes sense.
Yeah i was pretty confused aswell.
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On August 13 2013 07:30 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 07:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
The Terran upgrade combo is absurd x.x What's wrong with it as is? What's wrong with mech? The fact that's its just plain weak. This is just a way for Blizzard to give it an all-around buff.
How is combining mech and air upgrades buffing mech? If you're going mech, you're going to be upgrading mech anyway. It buffs the transition from mech to sky terran, sure... but that's about it. Combining the mech and non-mech upgrades doesn't buff mech. It just gives the Terran free upgrades for units he wasn't going to use.
If we wanted to give Terran mech an all-around buff, then I'd think that a slight damage increase per mech upgrade could work... not combining mech upgrades with non-mech upgrades. Or you could buff a mech unit or something else.
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Where is the Protoss love?
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The only thing left for this thread is for Avilo to show up
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On August 13 2013 07:36 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:
Where is the Protoss love?
In the Zerg territory. First the infestors stole our mind control, and now the vipers stole our amulets! >.<
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Sure, let's have Vipers which require no tech structure spawn with full energy. Because you know, Zerg needs help with tech switching on the fly to perfect counter compositions. What?
Oh hey cool idea, let anything built from the gateway have full energy, unlocked automatically by the Templar Archives/Robotics Bay/Fleet Beacon. That would actually be something that makes Gateways have a use again!
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On August 13 2013 04:33 Sissors wrote:
If they want to buff viper, why not change it to -5 range (subject to change), with a 3 radius (subject to change, but larger than now). Result would be that it is way more effective vs mobile armies, while still effective vs mech without completely dominating mech.
I made that suggestion a long time on the Blizzard forum. Right now Abduct and Blinding Cloud both hard counter Tanks, but both are pretty weak versus Bio.
So make Blinding Cloud either reduce range by a set amount for 4-5, or have it only effect biological units. That is a good idea to have a radius buff though, they should look into that.
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It's funny how people are acting like vipers went into battle with less than full energy before this change, it only changes the defensive options against a quick colossus push... It had full energy after like 15 sec before, now you save 15 sec boohoo. Changes nothing vs mech only vs some colossus timings imo...
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On August 13 2013 07:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 07:30 Bagi wrote:On August 13 2013 07:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
The Terran upgrade combo is absurd x.x What's wrong with it as is? What's wrong with mech? The fact that's its just plain weak. This is just a way for Blizzard to give it an all-around buff. How is combining mech and air upgrades buffing mech? If you're going mech, you're going to be upgrading mech anyway. It buffs the transition from mech to sky terran, sure... but that's about it. Combining the mech and non-mech upgrades doesn't buff mech. It just gives the Terran free upgrades for units he wasn't going to use. If we wanted to give Terran mech an all-around buff, then I'd think that a slight damage increase per mech upgrade could work... not combining mech upgrades with non-mech upgrades. Or you could buff a mech unit or something else.
if you go mech, you need vikings. the potential change makes the vikings upgrade as fast as the mech units without the necessity of a third armory/costs of upgrades/time spent. it is a buff to mech itself, and not necessarily to the skyterran transition.
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On August 13 2013 07:34 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 07:19 Havik_ wrote:On August 13 2013 07:04 SarcasmMonster wrote:On August 13 2013 07:01 RifleCow wrote:
I kinda liked mech vs p and bio vs z in BW. You can mech in all matchups in BW. Bio only works in vZ. You can Bio in all matchups in SC2. Mech only really works in TvT. What's wrong with this? Why the obsession with making mech viable in every matchup? This is such a stupid, stupid reason to not make mech work. Mech should work in all matchups to give the game more options. I'm sick of watching the same TvZ and same TvP every single game.
What about Zerg and Protoss? Skytoss doesn't work in PvT at all. It definitely needs a buff! And Hydras? You rarely see those in ZvT these days! Its okay for Terrans to whine about lack of variety (when they had the greatest number of viable openings by far in WoL), but those Protoss and Zerg players? They should just shut the fuck and keep their mouths shut!
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On August 13 2013 06:59 mafaba wrote:
WHY DOES BLIZZARD WANT TO MAKE MECH VIABLE?
I dont understand, this just doesnt compute in my brain.
Why would you want to buff a playstyle which needs no micro at all and is in general extremly boring to watch?
Did you forget your ADD pills this morning? Mech is not some twitch reaction time play style, it's about taking up relatively static positions and attempting to control the map itself. It's quite interesting to play and to watch. Mech vs mech TvT is one of my favorite things in SC2, and it was fun in BW too.
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I like the buffing approach, instead of nerfing the game to hell
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On August 13 2013 07:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 07:30 Bagi wrote:On August 13 2013 07:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
The Terran upgrade combo is absurd x.x What's wrong with it as is? What's wrong with mech? The fact that's its just plain weak. This is just a way for Blizzard to give it an all-around buff. How is combining mech and air upgrades buffing mech? If you're going mech, you're going to be upgrading mech anyway. It buffs the transition from mech to sky terran, sure... but that's about it. Combining the mech and non-mech upgrades doesn't buff mech. It just gives the Terran free upgrades for units he wasn't going to use. If we wanted to give Terran mech an all-around buff, then I'd think that a slight damage increase per mech upgrade could work... not combining mech upgrades with non-mech upgrades. Or you could buff a mech unit or something else.
A mech army without a cloud of vikings is extremely vulnerable, they are an essential part of the army. They now get 3-3 upgrades for free.
Banshees are a solid opener and now with cheap cloak and free upgrades they should be a viable lategame addition as well, both as harass units as well as support in your main army.
The only real "sky terran transition" is that into BCs but its a really rare since BC has so many hard counters. The point is that the combined upgrades still give a big boost to your supporting air units. Just because they don't come out of the factory doesn't mean they aren't an integral part of the mech army.
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I don't understand how anyone can pretend like widow mines aren't a huge problem when ONE SHOT of a widow mine often kills 15-20 banelings-- well over 10x the cost of the widow mine with essentially no micro required. Just nerf them.
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On August 13 2013 07:44 halfaspider wrote:
I don't understand how anyone can pretend like widow mines aren't a huge problem when ONE SHOT of a widow mine often kills 15-20 banelings-- well over 10x the cost of the widow mine with essentially no micro required. Just nerf them.
Learn to split.
/edit
And un-micro'ed widowmines actually do a lot of Friendlyfire damage.
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Upgrades are obnoxious though. You build a cool unit and it can't do anything until you research yet another upgrade. A good upgrade is stim pack for marines, unlocking new potential in a unit that is already very good. An annoying upgrade is siege tank research, you build a tank but you can't utilize its most basic function. I think the reason everyone likes the siege tank upgrade is because it creates more timings and makes the game more strategic, but now that the upgrade is gone I don't think we're really missing out on anything.
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On August 13 2013 07:42 Havik_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 07:34 Qikz wrote:On August 13 2013 07:19 Havik_ wrote:On August 13 2013 07:04 SarcasmMonster wrote:On August 13 2013 07:01 RifleCow wrote:
I kinda liked mech vs p and bio vs z in BW. You can mech in all matchups in BW. Bio only works in vZ. You can Bio in all matchups in SC2. Mech only really works in TvT. What's wrong with this? Why the obsession with making mech viable in every matchup? This is such a stupid, stupid reason to not make mech work. Mech should work in all matchups to give the game more options. I'm sick of watching the same TvZ and same TvP every single game. What about Zerg and Protoss? Skytoss doesn't work in PvT at all. It definitely needs a buff! And Hydras? You rarely see those in ZvT these days! Its okay for Terrans to whine about lack of variety (when they had the greatest number of viable openings by far in WoL), but those Protoss and Zerg players? They should just shut the fuck and keep their mouths shut!
Hey genius, both skytoss and hydras are viable as a counter to mech. If only mech was viable...
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Vipers shouldn't start with fully energy; they need a Moebius Reactor or Pathogen Glands. Wtf are they even thinking? At least they have the courtesy to test these crappy ideas out.
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On August 13 2013 07:42 Havik_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 07:34 Qikz wrote:On August 13 2013 07:19 Havik_ wrote:On August 13 2013 07:04 SarcasmMonster wrote:On August 13 2013 07:01 RifleCow wrote:
I kinda liked mech vs p and bio vs z in BW. You can mech in all matchups in BW. Bio only works in vZ. You can Bio in all matchups in SC2. Mech only really works in TvT. What's wrong with this? Why the obsession with making mech viable in every matchup? This is such a stupid, stupid reason to not make mech work. Mech should work in all matchups to give the game more options. I'm sick of watching the same TvZ and same TvP every single game. What about Zerg and Protoss? Skytoss doesn't work in PvT at all. It definitely needs a buff! And Hydras? You rarely see those in ZvT these days! Its okay for Terrans to whine about lack of variety (when they had the greatest number of viable openings by far in WoL), but those Protoss and Zerg players? They should just shut the fuck and keep their mouths shut!
I don't think any pure air composition should be viable in any match up. Air units are generally boring A-move units by design, and they fact they can't even collide with each other much makes it a lot worse.
That said, I do believe that Terran players have a valid point, that me as a spectator agree with. Terran Bio is getting boring.
The real problem is that Marines are so incredibly cost effective, and only cost minerals, so you can combine Marines with any gas intensive unit easily. Thus, if you directly buff gas intensive Thors or Tanks, you risk something like the 1-1-1 being overpowered again, as Terran would be able to combine the power units of two different tech trees and do an early all-in before upgrades are really meaningful.
In the end, this wraps back around to poor game design. A long time ago I advocated nerfing unupgraded Marines (reduce their HP to 40 from 45 but make Combat Shields give +15) and buffing Tanks while adding Medics into the game, and I think that would still work.
Terran relies far too much on the power of Marine.
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EPT
