EPTChanges for balance test map live - Page 26
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
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Kevin_Sorbo
Canada3217 Posts
On August 13 2013 09:10 YyapSsap wrote: I dont like the swarmhost/tank dynamic at all. You literally need to build more tanks as the zerg is building more swarmhosts. Expansions are easily taken if the zerg has a group of mutalisks (something that they can open with) and slowly moving tanks forward won't do squat. By the time you got enough tanks to go through the swarmhosts OR around, the zerg has broodlords or sacks the sawrmhosts for mass ultralisks etc as they got the bank to do so. The game gets drawn out WAY to easily and its boring quite frankly, where as tank lines in TvT can be much more dynamic. (Go around, drop, re-position etc). yeah swarm hosts are really broken(imo). I wonder what the fuck was wrong with lurkers. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Myrddraal
Australia937 Posts
On August 13 2013 09:06 avilo wrote: You must have never played any high level mech vs Zerg then. Because blinding cloud can be game breaking against mech, even if you know they have the vipers. You can prepare for vipers and still be in a situation to lose the game if blinding clouds go down on your army. VS Swarmhosts, if you prepare with siege tank accumulation and then accumulating ravens, you can beat swarmhosts, despite it forcing the game to go on for another half an hour. And don't get me wrong. Obviously combining armory upgrades will make mech stronger in terms of having vikings with mech...but mech does not need to be stronger against Zerg honestly, it needs to be stronger against Protoss right now, in combination with the tempest/immortal being toned down vs Terran mech and the siege tank being buffed vs Protoss. How would you feel about an Immortal with significantly reduced damage vs armoured and a very small AOE? I'm hesitant to suggest a straight up nerf to Immortal since they aren't used that much as it is, and I think giving Protoss some more accessible (but still not cheap) AOE could offer Protoss more stability. | ||
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Green_25
Great Britain696 Posts
Well, I guess early was the wrong phrase. Its more like a mid game push, when you are on 140 supply or so, and the zerg has started taking the entire map. On August 13 2013 09:06 avilo wrote: You must have never played any high level mech vs Zerg then. Because blinding cloud can be game breaking against mech, even if you know they have the vipers. You can prepare for vipers and still be in a situation to lose the game if blinding clouds go down on your army. VS Swarmhosts, if you prepare with siege tank accumulation and then accumulating ravens, you can beat swarmhosts, despite it forcing the game to go on for another half an hour. And don't get me wrong. Obviously combining armory upgrades will make mech stronger in terms of having vikings with mech...but mech does not need to be stronger against Zerg honestly, it needs to be stronger against Protoss right now, in combination with the tempest/immortal being toned down vs Terran mech and the siege tank being buffed vs Protoss. Ok, well maybe we have different experiences. I find that vipers can be sniped quite easily as long as I have vision on the zerg. Its swarmhosts which screw me over, as I end up being bogged down and unable to punish the zergs greed. By the time you get ravens or whatever, the zerg just has too much money and can constantly tech switch until you die. Obviously blinding cloud can be brutal. But I think vipers are fragile enough that it kind of balances out | ||
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Raambo11
United States828 Posts
On August 13 2013 04:33 TheDwf wrote: "Mech is weak" → Vipers start with full energy. Alright, it makes sense. This means Mech is even more unplayable now. Full energy vipers are a bigger nerf than dual upgrades is a buff to mech, not sure about their reasoning.. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12056 Posts
On August 13 2013 09:14 Raambo11 wrote: This mames Mech is even more unplayable now. Full energy vipers are a bigger nerf than dual upgrades is a buff to mech, not sure about their reasoning.. Well maybe now air transitions are better you can get bcs out quicker and rely less on pure viking/tank late game (bcs also help vs ultras and swarmhosts which are huge problems). I always found late game I needed bcs vs zerg but due to the attack upgrade being so late they came out useless. | ||
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shin_toss
Philippines2589 Posts
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XXXSmOke
United States1333 Posts
On August 13 2013 09:14 Raambo11 wrote: This mames Mech is even more unplayable now. Full energy vipers are a bigger nerf than dual upgrades is a buff to mech, not sure about their reasoning.. You realize that, Vipers pop out suck a building and are at full energy in maybe 4 seconds. Care to explain your reasoning? | ||
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Fig
United States1324 Posts
The whole point of the viper is that they already have a way to build up energy faster than all other spellcasters. And they come out with just hive tech, rather than needing their own building. If you want them to be better then make their spells or hp or speed better. Having them come out with full energy would be the most random cop out yet. | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
Many zerg players are already going for very fast hive timing and try to hit before hts are out, and this forces you to basically tech all the game long which reduces your unit count. If vipers start with full energy a timing can hit even earlier and this way you are basically forced to go straight for hts? Also having 200/200 energy after abducting colossi he still has energy left to cover your army with blinding clouds. But ht tech is really bad for defending any fast roach/hydra push. I tried to go straight for ht tech many times and every time when my opponent scouted it he started spamming roaches and hydras (or even only roaches) and there's no way you can hold without immortals and colossi, because you don't have enough energy for storms. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13526 Posts
From my perspective, the full energy buff really only makes for stronger roach/hydra/viper timing attacks (granted these will be pretty brutal for protosses to hold). | ||
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Poo
Canada536 Posts
Mech & overseer buff seems ok though imo. Particularly the overseer buff seems like a good change. | ||
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spritzz
Canada331 Posts
Anyway I agree that the energy change is ... meh. Rather see its steep gas cost lowered for an already gas-intensive zerg. | ||
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SsDrKosS
330 Posts
(Overseer buff def helps to destroy WM quicker. I LOVE THIS BUFF Combined upgrade will integrate more air units into mech composition. Good.) BUT viper with full energy just sounds rediculous I thought it was troll until I saw the op was davies in bnet  Viper don't need buff. if it needs buff, buff the spells, not their energy bar. + Show Spoiler + If you really want to buff the energy, fine. 2 options. 1. consume ability will gain more mana per health 2. consume can be casted on units as well as buildings | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On August 13 2013 09:28 Poo wrote: The viper buff makes no sense. Vipers have an ability to incr energy by consuming a buildings HP... by increasing their starting mana the abilities purpose becomes questionable. Although the viper is struggling to accomplish its role esp PvZ, I don't think this is a good way to approach solving the issue.. Mech & overseer buff seems ok though imo. Particularly the overseer buff seems like a good change. Sorry but I don't understand how it fails to accomplish its role in PvZ. Abduct has the same range as feedback which makes it a balanced micro battle, similar to hts vs ghosts. They can abduct every unit and protoss units are all expensive (especially the ones you want in lategame) so it's always worth it to have some vipers in your army. In my opinion they don't need any buff, maybe blinding cloud but from the previous posts it seems it's already pretty strong vs terran mech. | ||
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SsDrKosS
330 Posts
On August 13 2013 09:23 RowdierBob wrote: Anyone think a better Viper buff would have been to give blinding cloud a larger diameter (similar to dark swarm in BW)? From my perspective, the full energy buff really only makes for stronger roach/hydra/viper timing attacks (granted these will be pretty brutal for protosses to hold). Did you know that Viper used to have Blinding cloud with bigger radius? It was nerfed because it was OP. PURE OP. | ||
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Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
On August 13 2013 09:19 XXXSmOke wrote: You realize that, Vipers pop out suck a building and are at full energy in maybe 4 seconds. Care to explain your reasoning? Or maybe your "reasoning" is not reasonable. 50 energy over 20 seconds, so, with natural energy regeneration, under 60 seconds to go from 50 to 200 normally. Under one minute is not the same as 4 seconds, thanks. >:| I agree with On August 13 2013 06:09 RiSkysc2 wrote: Viper change is a nerf, when they come out they'll be able to be 1 shotted with feedback. On August 13 2013 06:10 Existor wrote: those guys.This patch is a buff for Protoss. Vipers can be insta-feedbacked on Zerg base. On August 13 2013 09:23 RowdierBob wrote: Anyone think a better Viper buff would have been to give blinding cloud a larger diameter (similar to dark swarm in BW)? Yep, someone else suggested something like that and I agree. Something to make Blinding Cloud more useful and reliable versus bio. Failing that you could go with making them 100 minerals/150 gas but I think making them better would be better for the game than making them cheaper/more energy efficient. | ||
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TyrantPotato
Australia1541 Posts
On August 13 2013 09:12 Kevin_Sorbo wrote: yeah swarm hosts are really broken(imo). I wonder what the fuck was wrong with lurkers. iirc the original argument blizzard used for defending not including lurkers was because its role overlapped with the baneling however in a recent interview with Chinese players the argument now from David is "they are countered by marauders/ immortals" as to why the lurker is not in. ive no opinion on the matter, at least not one that's untainted with balance whine. | ||
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StreetWise
United States594 Posts
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