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On August 13 2013 02:49 Incognoto wrote:
Problem with burrowed Banelings is that they have bad LOS and they need to be detonated manually by the Zerg (unlike Widow Mines). It requires so much APM at a high level to have your banelings detonate at just the right time that it's almost gimmicky and can't be used reliably. Those are at least my impressions, as I've seen top zergs fail to detonate their banelings SO many times when the results could have been awesome.
That's not the only way to use banes - they can also roll up to you; which widow mines cannot do. Manual detonation against normal speed marines (they are rarely stimmed unless engaged in combat) is definitely not too difficult at the top level - especially when you can have a ling running around to scout for army movement.
Terran army -> -> -> scouting ling -> -> - > - > baneling mines
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On August 13 2013 02:53 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 02:49 Incognoto wrote:
Problem with burrowed Banelings is that they have bad LOS and they need to be detonated manually by the Zerg (unlike Widow Mines). It requires so much APM at a high level to have your banelings detonate at just the right time that it's almost gimmicky and can't be used reliably. Those are at least my impressions, as I've seen top zergs fail to detonate their banelings SO many times when the results could have been awesome. That's not the only way to use banes - they can also roll up to you; which widow mines cannot do. Manual detonation against normal speed marines (they are rarely stimmed unless engaged in combat) is definitely not too difficult at the top level - especially when you can have a ling running around to scout for army movement. Terran army -> -> -> scouting ling -> -> - > - > baneling mines
I'm not saying Banelings are a bad unit, far from that. I think they're actually one of Zerg's best units.
My point is that burrowing banelings aren't as good as the rolling ones. Burrowing banelings can work but it requires so much babysitting that's pretty much not worth it. Once a top Zerg starts to use them continuously in TvZ with good results, don't worry I'll eat my words.
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On August 13 2013 02:50 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 01:07 Karpfen wrote:On August 13 2013 00:55 Mocking wrote:
Lings can't take marines at the same numbers, what make the zergs survive are banelings, and them lings take the rest of the marines. But if 3-3 marines deal way to much DPS to banelings and lings, and survive longer, what gets even stronger when they are if medivacs. Dont know why people think lings can take out marines, they cant, the banelings ( who dont won a considerable boost if upgrades), they are the one who tanks. And who said "Marauders only do +3 damage to ultras using 3-3", plz a marauder gets +9 dmg in comparison to 0-0. You should really read again the whole thing. He should also learn the statistics of all races first, probably by starting with his own. Marauders gain +2 vs armoured IN TOTAL per upgrade. It's +1 & +1 more vs Armoured per upgrade, so 13/26 (vs Armoured) at +3/+3. 26 is 6 more than 20.
Ultras also have 1 natural armor and another +2 with Chitinous Plating. So with full upgrades, marauders really are only doing 3 points of damage better.
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On August 13 2013 02:49 Incognoto wrote:
Problem with burrowed Banelings is that they have bad LOS and they need to be detonated manually by the Zerg (unlike Widow Mines). It requires so much APM at a high level to have your banelings detonate at just the right time that it's almost gimmicky and can't be used reliably. Those are at least my impressions, as I've seen top zergs fail to detonate their banelings SO many times when the results could have been awesome.
Don't confuse APM and attention. Detonating 2 Banelings = one action, it doesn't require "so much apm," but it does require to watch at the right time. Which, indeed, is difficult when you're busy somewhere else.
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On August 13 2013 02:58 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 02:49 Incognoto wrote:
Problem with burrowed Banelings is that they have bad LOS and they need to be detonated manually by the Zerg (unlike Widow Mines). It requires so much APM at a high level to have your banelings detonate at just the right time that it's almost gimmicky and can't be used reliably. Those are at least my impressions, as I've seen top zergs fail to detonate their banelings SO many times when the results could have been awesome. Don't confuse APM and attention. Detonating 2 Banelings = one action, it doesn't require "so much apm," but it does require to watch at the right time. Which, indeed, is difficult when you're busy somewhere else.
I worded that poorly but you've managed to convey what I meant, indeed, you can't sit there watching your banelings when you have many other things to do! xD
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Another problem with the burrowed banelings is that quite often, the bio is actually split into rather small groups that are barely worth the baneling costs even after manually detonating in the right timing.
If we count gas as being worth the same as minerals:
- Marine = 50 minerals
- Baneling = 75 "mineral value",
- 2 banelings to kill a marine
- 75÷50×2=3
∴ You have to hit at least 3 to trade evenly.
More realistically, considering how many more minerals you have available, gas is arguably worth roughly closer to 2 minerals each.
- Marine = 50 minerals
- Baneling = 100 "mineral value",
- 2 banelings to kill a marine
100÷50×2=4
∴ You have to hit at least 4 to trade evenly.
Now you see groups of 5 to 8 being killed reasonably often, but for something that requires setup, can be killed with detection for complete loss of resources for the zerg, + Show Spoiler +(scan or you could have a Raven flying with the Marines, Medivacs and Mines seeing as plenty o' terrans float gas)
EDIT:
On August 13 2013 02:57 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 02:50 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:On August 13 2013 01:07 Karpfen wrote:On August 13 2013 00:55 Mocking wrote:
Lings can't take marines at the same numbers, what make the zergs survive are banelings, and them lings take the rest of the marines. But if 3-3 marines deal way to much DPS to banelings and lings, and survive longer, what gets even stronger when they are if medivacs. Dont know why people think lings can take out marines, they cant, the banelings ( who dont won a considerable boost if upgrades), they are the one who tanks. And who said "Marauders only do +3 damage to ultras using 3-3", plz a marauder gets +9 dmg in comparison to 0-0. You should really read again the whole thing. He should also learn the statistics of all races first, probably by starting with his own. Marauders gain +2 vs armoured IN TOTAL per upgrade. It's +1 & +1 more vs Armoured per upgrade, so 13/26 (vs Armoured) at +3/+3. 26 is 6 more than 20. Ultras also have 1 natural armor and another +2 with Chitinous Plating. So with full upgrades, marauders really are only doing 3 points of damage better.
They deal 6 more when they (marauders) have +3 compared to when they (marauders) have +0.
That was what I was clarifying about his point.
With these comparisons, you're probably always going to suppose the Ultralisk has its Chitinious Plating and you can't just assume it somehow drops its natural +1 armour so no.
Your point means this:
Marauders with +3 damage upgrades only deal 3 points of extra damage against Ultralisks than they deal when they have +0 weapon upgrades....against non-existent make-believe Ultralisks that have 0 natural armour and haven't got Chitinous Plating for some odd reason.
It's not relevant. 
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On August 12 2013 15:02 darkscream wrote:
The issue is more that all terran players do is try to get super aggressive right when the zerg would like to go Hive, they never feel safe buying upgrades/tech because they have to keep making banelings.
I think it goes without saying that the longer a game is, the more important it is to finish your upgrades. Finding the money to do it at the right times is easier said than done.
terran should be aggressive. Turtling against a zerg and letting him tech up to hive is a good way to lose. the onis is on zerg to find the 300/250 resources to obtain hive tech.
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Nice write up, thanks a lot for the info. Also even trying to win with Muta Bane, it is better to get the Cracklings and 3-3 ASAP for them
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On August 13 2013 02:53 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 02:49 Incognoto wrote:
Problem with burrowed Banelings is that they have bad LOS and they need to be detonated manually by the Zerg (unlike Widow Mines). It requires so much APM at a high level to have your banelings detonate at just the right time that it's almost gimmicky and can't be used reliably. Those are at least my impressions, as I've seen top zergs fail to detonate their banelings SO many times when the results could have been awesome. That's not the only way to use banes - they can also roll up to you; which widow mines cannot do. Manual detonation against normal speed marines (they are rarely stimmed unless engaged in combat) is definitely not too difficult at the top level - especially when you can have a ling running around to scout for army movement. Terran army -> -> -> scouting ling -> -> - > - > baneling mines
Burrowed Banelings are all fine and dandy, but they require Burrow upgrade (again, more GAS), precise positioning (Terran army needs to walk DIRECTLY over them) and constant awareness. And they can't even be used once Terran is streaming his troops towards your base. Widow Mine has none of those limitations. And considering all of Z army is melee, whereas T is all range, Terran has no need for Widow Mines to 'roll' when they can just poke with couple of units and then retreat to mine field.
The issues I see are as follows:
1. Terran has no need for gas save for upgrades and they only need to upgrade Bio. This makes Mules too powerful in this particular match-up. Just check TvP. Terrans have to use additional tech (Vikings and Ghosts) to fight Protoss and this delays their upgrades considerably.
2. Zerg has no way to deal efficiently with Widow Mines. Hydralisk is the only reasonable Zerg unit that can outrange Widow Mine and therefore kill it without the need to trigger it (which requires additional APM and unit sacrifice). Unfortunately, Hydralisk is horribly cost inefficient and even worse vs. Bio than Mutalisks. Only other units capable of dealing with mines are Swarm Hosts (lol) and Brood Lords (gl getting to them).
I feel like making Hydralisk into a core Zerg unit would solve a lot of issues. It solves Zerg's lack of anti-air options vs. Toss and gives them an equal footing versus Terrans. It's an iconic Starcraft unit, yet it sees (and for good reason) almost no use.
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On August 13 2013 03:46 ReMinD_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 02:53 plogamer wrote:On August 13 2013 02:49 Incognoto wrote:
Problem with burrowed Banelings is that they have bad LOS and they need to be detonated manually by the Zerg (unlike Widow Mines). It requires so much APM at a high level to have your banelings detonate at just the right time that it's almost gimmicky and can't be used reliably. Those are at least my impressions, as I've seen top zergs fail to detonate their banelings SO many times when the results could have been awesome. That's not the only way to use banes - they can also roll up to you; which widow mines cannot do. Manual detonation against normal speed marines (they are rarely stimmed unless engaged in combat) is definitely not too difficult at the top level - especially when you can have a ling running around to scout for army movement. Terran army -> -> -> scouting ling -> -> - > - > baneling mines Burrowed Banelings are all fine and dandy, but they require Burrow upgrade (again, more GAS), precise positioning (Terran army needs to walk DIRECTLY over them) and constant awareness. And they can't even be used once Terran is streaming his troops towards your base. Widow Mine has none of those limitations. And considering all of Z army is melee, whereas T is all range, Terran has no need for Widow Mines to 'roll' when they can just poke with couple of units and then retreat to mine field. The issues I see are as follows: 1. Terran has no need for gas save for upgrades and they only need to upgrade Bio. This makes Mules too powerful in this particular match-up. Just check TvP. Terrans have to use additional tech (Vikings and Ghosts) to fight Protoss and this delays their upgrades considerably. 2. Zerg has no way to deal efficiently with Widow Mines. Hydralisk is the only reasonable Zerg unit that can outrange Widow Mine and therefore kill it without the need to trigger it (which requires additional APM and unit sacrifice). Unfortunately, Hydralisk is horribly cost inefficient and even worse vs. Bio than Mutalisks. Only other units capable of dealing with mines are Swarm Hosts (lol) and Brood Lords (gl getting to them). I feel like making Hydralisk into a core Zerg unit would solve a lot of issues. It solves Zerg's lack of anti-air options vs. Toss and gives them an equal footing versus Terrans. It's an iconic Starcraft unit, yet it sees (and for good reason) almost no use.
On most maps, paths armies take can be very predictable. You say that Terran is ranged, and ignore that Zerg has the much higher mobility. If you want to only focus on the benefits of 4m and only the drawbacks of ling/bane/muta; I'm not suriprised you see the MU as being imbalanced.
There are other ways to defuse mines without out-ranging them - widow mine friendlyfire is a serious drawback that Zergs love to ignore. Jaedong over-makes mutas, and we hear complains about gas constraints, QQ. Clumps units, complains about how a WM can kill 20 units. If you clump units, psi-storm will eat through armies too.
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I always thought it was silly that ranged units can shoot through each other. What if it was changed so ranged units can't shoot through friendly units that are between them and the target? There could be some exceptions of course for things like siege mode and colossi.
Would change the game for units like roaches and hydra too, so could be balanced.
Yea nevermind. Its too large a change for Blizz to ever consider.
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On August 12 2013 15:43 Msr wrote:
is there a reason protoss and terran do not need another tech path for +3? Zerg has to add on two buildings.. one of them being completely useless
It's a throwback to SC1. During the beta, it was found that a lot of "macro players" would just mass up the best a-move unit and max out upgrades. Back then "macro players" was a dirty word... funny how times change. Anyway Blizzard design teams didn't like this (and I still agree with them), so they put in upgrade requirements to open up tech choices as well as just going mass 1 unit with upgrades.
-Note, I'm certainly not calling terrans a-move players if they make mostly marines vs Zerg. Marines take a lot of micro and are fun to use and watch. Zerg definitely has to consider the power of 3/3 marines carefully though, as they obviously can wreck lair tech with 2/2 as we see often. My vote is on infestors and/or +3 armor for zerg ground... very critical.
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If you have 3/3 Marines in TvZ and they're stuck on Lair,
this means that you're guaranteed an advantage in upgrades right? How big of a factor does this play?
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On August 13 2013 06:31 IntoTheheart wrote:
If you have 3/3 Marines in TvZ and they're stuck on Lair,
this means that you're guaranteed an advantage in upgrades right? How big of a factor does this play?
I suggest reading the first post of this thread.
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I want to see a terran nerf ASAP.
User was warned for this post
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5.23 dps vs ultras =[ lol fail
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On August 13 2013 02:56 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 02:53 plogamer wrote:On August 13 2013 02:49 Incognoto wrote:
Problem with burrowed Banelings is that they have bad LOS and they need to be detonated manually by the Zerg (unlike Widow Mines). It requires so much APM at a high level to have your banelings detonate at just the right time that it's almost gimmicky and can't be used reliably. Those are at least my impressions, as I've seen top zergs fail to detonate their banelings SO many times when the results could have been awesome. That's not the only way to use banes - they can also roll up to you; which widow mines cannot do. Manual detonation against normal speed marines (they are rarely stimmed unless engaged in combat) is definitely not too difficult at the top level - especially when you can have a ling running around to scout for army movement. Terran army -> -> -> scouting ling -> -> - > - > baneling mines I'm not saying Banelings are a bad unit, far from that. I think they're actually one of Zerg's best units. My point is that burrowing banelings aren't as good as the rolling ones. Burrowing banelings can work but it requires so much babysitting that's pretty much not worth it. Once a top Zerg starts to use them continuously in TvZ with good results, don't worry I'll eat my words.
Polt vs Revival, IEM Shanghai, neo planet s... Even though I'm not sure what happened before the midgame.
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On August 13 2013 16:39 ROOTdrewbie wrote:
5.23 dps vs ultras =[ lol fail
Hey, no worries. You got your marauder buddies to back you up!
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On August 12 2013 14:42 hansonslee wrote:
TLDR: As a zerg, NEVER EVER settle with Lair tech, even if you have a huge lead! 3/3 marines are very powerful in the middle-late game. Get your hive tech to reach to the late game phase! So, no more balance whining about marines please!
Easier said than done... Infestation pit, hive, 3/3 and adrenal glands cost a lot of gas.
When you're making the choice to delay your hive tech, it's usually because Terran is applying a lot of pressure on you and you cannot afford to spend resources elsewhere than on units. Very stupid statement to be honest.
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On August 13 2013 16:39 ROOTdrewbie wrote:
5.23 dps vs ultras =[ lol fail
compared to a roach(6.5), stalker(7.6), zealot(8.32), 2marines look like icecold ultralisk killers
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EPT
