EPTThe Science of 3-3 Marines (vs. Zerg Lair Tech) - Page 3
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
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Rassy
Netherlands2308 Posts
Comparing 3-3 with 2-2 and 2-0 to make a point lol. How about changing it around, 2-2 marines against 3-3 roaches,zerglings and muta? At max upgrades zerglings are better then marines compared to everyone at 0-0 since zerg has the crackling upgrade beg August 12 2013 14:47. Posts 736 Gift TL+ PM Profile Report Quote # "hm, i never heard casters specifically talking about 3/3 vs lair, but rather "3/3 vs ling bling muta". i always wondered why 3/3 terran would be so special against 3/3 zerg. it makes no sense to me at all." You are right, it does not make sense at all  only tanks do get alot better when they get to +3 attack. But for that zerg has ultra and even roach upgrades wich also increase efficiency in a similar way.Against 3-3 marines 0-3 mutas are alot better then 3-0 mutas, so maybe analyse that. Its not our fault that zerg always wrongly goes for the attack upgrade lol. | ||
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hansonslee
United States2027 Posts
On August 12 2013 17:51 Rassy wrote: This has to be the worst balance whine thread ever. Comparing 3-3 with 2-2 and 2-0 to make a point lol. How about changing it around, 2-2 marines against 3-3 roaches,zerglings and muta? Did you read the scenarios I have established? I have clearly established why I have set up those situations. First of all, what kind of terran progamer would stick with 2-2 marines against 3-3 zerg units? Of course, zerg will win in that case. Second, I have extrapolated some data on what would happen if zerg reached hive tech (3-3), and it turns out that zerg does have a fighting chance against 3-3 marines (and possibly the whole terran composition). Third, I even said that people should stop complaining about marines and try something else. I can't speak for everyone who might use this data as a balance whine prop, but I certainly have no intention of saying Terran is OP or anything like that. On August 12 2013 17:49 lichter wrote: It's interesting to see numbers like this, but I am worried that people will draw too many conclusions from such limited data (which isn't the fault of the OP because it is impossible to do the math for every engagement situation). Yeah, I understand your concern. But, unfortunately, that's beyond me. I just wanted to present this just to add a bit of perspective, for I don't think what I said was extremely revolutionary. Also, you are right. In theory-crafting, it is very hard to create a hardcore simulation of the game, which is why I wrote down some notes and scenarios to suggest how my guesswork is based on certain conditions. | ||
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Rassy
Netherlands2308 Posts
People already say in this thread that zerglings upgrade similar to marines. That you take 2-0 or 3-0 for mutas i can understand (though i would prefer 0-2/0-3 since that is better against marines) but zerglings should have equall upgrades. It might take a long time for zerg to reach 3-3 but this goes for terran as well. Well annyway:Ty for analysis. its interesting data none the less, showing the huge power upgrades have for the t1 units. The thing wich i find most disadvanteous for zerg is that they have to upgrade range seperatly wich forces zerg to kinda make a choise if he wants to get to 3-3 (therefor as zerg i would always go for the armour first to nullify the opponents attack upgrades against all zerg units) Terran has to upgrade mech seperatly but you realy need only 1 attack upgrade for that (to make tanks 1 shot even 3-3 lings and banes) while with zerg range the upgrade is a bit more desireable against 3-3 enemys even though technically +1 for roaches gives the highest % damage increase for anny unit that does 10+ damage. I also do see how zerg is strugling atm, so a few complaints about certain things are valid | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
Speedvac and Widow mines just made it more viable atleast in the short term (until its figured out) to use them since you can be more mobile with them and make it extremely hard for them to be chased around by banelings. Sure you had tanks in WoL but tanks were a massive liability and ended up being a useless sunk cost during hive tech TvZ compared to widow mines. | ||
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hansonslee
United States2027 Posts
On August 12 2013 18:00 Rassy wrote: But why analyse such a highly specifi scenario then? People already say in this thread that zerglings upgrade similar to marines. That you take 2-0 or 3-0 for mutas i can understand (though i would prefer 0-2/0-3 since that is better against marines) but zerglings should have equall upgrades. It might take a long time for zerg to reach 3-3 but this goes for terran as well. Well annyway:Ty for analysis. its interesting data none the less, showing the huge power upgrades have for the t1 units. The scenarios I introduce are meant to simplify the analysis. Yes, it's not perfect, and some people definitely are right to point that some factors that are limiting in my analysis. Unfortunately, this method is the best way I can think of to manifest the metagame into concrete math. As a person who studied science, I understand that limiting scenarios don't reveal the whole picture, but sometimes such simplification is required to make concrete models and conclusions within our control. After all, whenever we test or hypothesize a concept, we have to limit the amount of independent variables to observe a comfortable amount of dependent variables and assert a very conservative conclusion. The thing wich i find most disadvanteous for zerg is that they have to upgrade range seperatly wich forces zerg to kinda make a choise if he wants to get to 3-3 (therefor as zerg i would always go for the armour first to nullify the opponents attack upgrades against all zerg units) Terran has to upgrade mech seperatly but you realy need only 1 attack upgrade for that (to make tanks 1 shot even 3-3 lings and banes) while with zerg range the upgrade is a bit more desireable against 3-3 enemys even though technically +1 for roaches gives the highest % damage increase for anny unit that does 10+ damage. I actually don't have an opinion on that matter, because I don't usually see ranged units used in ZvT (unless I am watching HyuN or Idra). Usually, zerg ranged units are not a good opinion because they don't have splash damage. | ||
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Entirety
1423 Posts
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hansonslee
United States2027 Posts
On August 12 2013 18:14 Entirety wrote: I believe that 0/2 Mutas are probably better than 2/0, but keep in mind that 0/2 costs more and ultimately, I'd rather have 2/0 Mutas and earlier Hive. There is actually a debate on that. Back in WoL when mutalisks were pretty popular, there were some Zerg players who researched air armor instead of weapons. But majority of the progamers researched weapons because they believe that mutalisks are mainly damage dealing units for harassment. I thought about including 2/2 mutalisks into the analysis because I thought that usually would be an unlikely scenario because gas is being constantly used for units and other stuff. | ||
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SamuelGreen
Sweden292 Posts
On August 12 2013 15:19 FakeDouble wrote: There's no magical counter, you just need to be better than your opponent it seems. Best thing anyone said so far :-) | ||
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shell
Portugal2722 Posts
Mass drops are hard against very good terran players | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
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syriuszonito
Poland332 Posts
Oh and its good that you checked the 3-3 vs 2-2 scenario coz this is where games ends most of the time :D. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 12 2013 18:17 hansonslee wrote: There is actually a debate on that. Back in WoL when mutalisks were pretty popular, there were some Zerg players who researched air armor instead of weapons. But majority of the progamers researched weapons because they believe that mutalisks are mainly damage dealing units for harassment. I thought about including 2/2 mutalisks into the analysis because I thought that usually would be an unlikely scenario because gas is being constantly used for units and other stuff. in WoL you actually went armor>attack due to what you write in the OP in HotS the situation has changed, because mutalisks regenerate very fast now. Getting all your mutas in the red isn't immidiatly gameending anymore in HotS. The basic dynamics of mutalisks suggest: armor > attack for a matchup with a single big battle with a core combat role (like ZvZ muta vs muta) attack > armor for a matchup with many battles with a supporting role (like ZvT) | ||
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SplashbackFerret
New Zealand846 Posts
Of course, they are more vulnerable to aoe because of it, but the state of aoe abilities in the game is a whole other discussion. | ||
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On August 12 2013 19:07 SplashbackFerret wrote: One commonly overlooked strength of marines (and terran bio in general) is their dps "density"; basically you can fit a whole lot of marines in a small area (which makes them more effective for things like advancing on/defending chokepoints). If marines each took up the same amount of space that a stalker did (without changing anything else), they'd probably be garbage. Of course, they are more vulnerable to aoe because of it, but the state of aoe abilities in the game is a whole other discussion. it's not overlooked. And you can't discuss dps "density" without discussing aoe. Aoe is the weakness to this dps density. Once marines are split up, lings become so much more effective - decreasing the marine density (decreased damage output) and increasing the ling attack surface area (Increased damage input). | ||
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Dingodile
4133 Posts
Terran is the macro race in Hots TvZ. | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On August 12 2013 22:53 Dingodile wrote: I think the main reason in zerg's huge problem from switch lair to hive is that terran can faster maxing (and remaxing) than zerg, therefore not enough minerals and gas left für Hive and Hive buildungs. Terran is the macro race in Hots TvZ. You build 10 ultralisks that's 60 supply in a min. Terran can't build faster than that. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On August 12 2013 22:58 MstrJinbo wrote: You build 10 ultralisks that's 60 supply in a min. Terran can't build faster than that. Um...no? A typical 3 base terran doing mmmm with 10 barracks (take your pick of addons), 2 factories and 2 starports does exactly that. Scary huh? And then T drops some Mules. Anyways this "science" is garbage, it's not scientific at all, just attaching words you don't understand for attention. Call it analysis maybe, but it doesn't take a genius to work out that 3/3 ups is better than 2/2 ups, especially when mutas don't tend not be upgraded to 2/2 in the first place. | ||
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
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Dingodile
4133 Posts
On August 12 2013 22:58 MstrJinbo wrote: You build 10 ultralisks that's 60 supply in a min. Terran can't build faster than that. Interesting, tell me how this work if you dont have hive. Apparently only Ultralisk can max and remax faster than t. I was talking about max and remaxing before Hive tech. | ||
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