Note: This is NOT a balance discussion (personally, I enjoy ZvT match ups the most, even though I am a protoss fan). Just want to provide a thorough mathematical analysis.
A lot of casters talk about why 3-3 marines are pretty good against a Lair Zerg!
Let's look at the numbers and see why:
General Scenario for Lair Tech:
- Mutalisks do not get armor upgrades (most progamers usually go for attack upgrades) - Mutalisk Regeneration is included, so the DPS against mutalisks will be subtracted by 1. - For other zerg units regeneration, they are given + 1 hp (zerg units immediately regenerate after taking damage. (Hive units included) - Best case scenario for zerg on lair tech: 2/2 upgrades for melee units and 2/0 for mutalisks - Infestors are excluded because their damage are merely complementary and spell-based
Fully upgraded (w/ stim): Original DPS: 15.683 Against Unarmored Mutalisks: 14.684 dps Against 2/2 lings and banelings: 12.197 dps Time to Kill: Mutalisk (8.17 seconds), 2/2 ling (2.95 seconds), 2/2 baneling (2.54 seconds)
LVL 2 weapons (w/ stim): Original DPS: 13.940 dps Against Mutalisks: 12.940 dps Against 2/2 lings and banelings: 10.455 dps Time to Kill: Mutalisk (9.27 seconds), 2/2 ling (3.44 seconds), 2/2 baneling (2.97 seconds)
Observations: - Already a + 1.5 dmg boost after the upgrade! - Approximately a 20% boost in damage effectiveness against the 2/2 ling/banelings! - The time decrease to kill: 11.9% for mutalisk, 14.2% for ling, 14.5% for baneling
Armor Analysis:
Note: The actual amount of units required to kill the marine will definitely be greater than I calculated here because the surround does not guarantee the zerg units to attack simultaneously. Without the simultaneous attack, the influence of the medivac healing factor will be greater and would theoretically mitigate some of the damage inflicted by the zerg units.
Scenario for Every Armor Analysis: - The marine is a pacifist and won't attack the cute happy CARBOT zerg units - Medivac have invented overheal. In other words, it can give extra HP. - Mutalisk Bounce analysis excluded - After the zerg units attack, the marine will immediately be healed. - The goal of the zerg units to kill the marine in 1 second. - The medivac healing will trigger immediately after the attack (+13.5 hp bonus of the marine) - The Zerg Units get the PERFECT surround! :D
Healing rate of medivac: 13.5 hp/sec (game seconds)
Fully upgraded armor (w/ healing from medivac):
Against one 2/2 ling: 7.75 OVERHEAL/second How many 2/2 lings required to attack simultaneously: approximately 12
Against 2/2 banelings: 26.5 damage taken/second
Against one LVL 2 attack mutalisk: 8.32 OVERHEAL/second How many 2/0 mutalisks required to attack simultaneously: approximately 14
LVL 2 armor (w/ healing from medivac):
Against one 2/2 ling: 6.32 OVERHEAL/second How many 2/2 lings required to attack simultaneously: approximately 10
Against 2/2 banelings: 29.5 damage taken/second
Against one LVL 2 attack mutalisk: 7.67 OVERHEAL/second How many 2/0 mutalisks required to attack simulateously: approximately 12
Observations: - The number of units required to kill are increased by 2 (approximately 20% increase for zerglings and 16.7% for mutalisks), when the marine gets +1 armor upgrade.
--- Now, let's look at the HIVE Tech!
General Scenario for Hive Tech:
- Best case scenario for zerg on high tech: fully upgraded zerglings/banelings/ultralisks, 3/0 for air units (we rarely see the air 3/3 scenario, unless it is super duper late game) - Mutalisks are excluded because progamers tend to use hive units at this phase of the game. - Marines are still 3/3
Scenario: - Perfect Broodlord control, where marines can't reach the broodlords. (i.e: Broodlords are excluded in this part of the analysis)
Against 5/3 ultralisks: 5.23 dps Against 4/3 ultralisks: 6.97 dps Against 3/3 lings/banelings: 10.455 dps
Time to Kill for 3/3: ultralisk (95.8 seconds), 3/3 ling (3.44 seconds), 3/3 baneling (2.97 seconds) Time to Kill for 2/2:ultralisk (71.9 seconds) ling (2.95 seconds), baneling (2.54 seconds)
Observations: - Ultralisks are great tanking units against marines! - Time to Kill increase from zerg LVL 2/2 to 3/3: 33.2% (ultralisks), 16.6% (lings), 16.9% (banelings)
Against one 3/3 Ultralisk: 38.1 damage taken/ second Against one 3/3 Broodlord: 24.9 damage taken + 1.1 OVERHEAL/second Against one 3/3 Broodlord (average damage): 8.1 damage taken/second Against 3/3 cracklings: 4.98 OVERHEAL/second
Amount of 3/3 crackling required to attack simultaneously: Approximately 9
Observations: - Hive tech units can eat up 3/3 marines supported by medivacs - Amount of lings required to kill decreased by 3, when cracklings are researched!
TLDR: As a zerg, NEVER EVER settle with Lair tech, even if you have a huge lead! 3/3 marines are very powerful in the middle-late game. Get your hive tech to reach to the late game phase! So, no more balance whining about marines please!
EDIT: Also, we can argue about how Widow Mines and Marauders still cause major problems, which I can relate. However, this thread is meant to focus mainly on marines, which is arguably one of the most cost-effective units in the game.
hm, i never heard casters specifically talking about 3/3 vs lair, but rather "3/3 vs ling bling muta". i always wondered why 3/3 terran would be so special against 3/3 zerg. it makes no sense to me at all.
On August 12 2013 14:47 beg wrote: hm, i never heard casters specifically talking about 3/3 vs lair, but rather "3/3 vs ling bling muta". i always wondered why 3/3 terran would be so special against 3/3 zerg. it makes no sense to me at all.
Their DPS is so fast and that extra boost makes everything just die so quick :[ Just go around and drop 4 marauders sniping hatches like their creep tumors haha
Yes! WoL style 12 minute brood lords! I miss the good ole' days.. nice write up! Always nice to see someone that goes really indepth with the math behind it.
The issue is more that all terran players do is try to get super aggressive right when the zerg would like to go Hive, they never feel safe buying upgrades/tech because they have to keep making banelings.
I think it goes without saying that the longer a game is, the more important it is to finish your upgrades. Finding the money to do it at the right times is easier said than done.
On August 12 2013 15:02 darkscream wrote: The issue is more that all terran players do is try to get super aggressive right when the zerg would like to go Hive, they never feel safe buying upgrades/tech because they have to keep making banelings.
I think it goes without saying that the longer a game is, the more important it is to finish your upgrades. Finding the money to do it at the right times is easier said than done.
Yeah, I noticed that. Terran players like Innovation and Polt utilize constant aggression to prevent zerg players from reaching the hive comfortably. However, there are some instances such as Jaedong vs. Polt and Soulkey vs. Innovation (one proleague match before the GSL finals) when the zerg players stayed on Lair tech for too long.
However, terran players are aggressive during the 2/2 phase, so zerg should learn how to balance teching and defend.
On August 12 2013 14:47 beg wrote: hm, i never heard casters specifically talking about 3/3 vs lair, but rather "3/3 vs ling bling muta". i always wondered why 3/3 terran would be so special against 3/3 zerg. it makes no sense to me at all.
In general, Zergs need a hive to get 3/3 so terrans will almost always get 3/3 first. So its a pretty obvious timing window to do major damage. Also in reality 3/3 wrecks roach hydra if the Zerg is behind on the upgrades too so its not specific to ling/bane/muta. Although with mutas, zergs typically only get attack upgrades so the marine upgrades rip them apart especially quick.
On August 12 2013 14:47 beg wrote: hm, i never heard casters specifically talking about 3/3 vs lair, but rather "3/3 vs ling bling muta". i always wondered why 3/3 terran would be so special against 3/3 zerg. it makes no sense to me at all.
in SC2, some units can bypass upgrade disadvantage. Widow mines, the pre nerf hellbats (can always deal with 3/3 zealots very well even if they are only 0/0), spells such as storms and fungals. 3/3 bio is stronger than (and much more cost efficient) 3/3 zerg should not be that surprising because zerg has fungal. (which is still kinda dealable by the terran with the power of medivac) The problem of cause, is that infestors nowadays are just not what they used to be in WoL and muta is almost needed to stay alive from the drops, make it harder to get to hive tech
In today's series between Jaedong and Polt, there was one game where JD went ling bane infestor into quick hive and quick 3/3 upgrades. He survived the longest vs Polt in that game because he was 3/3 on ground vs 2/2. When Polt caught up to 3/3 JD started falling apart. Ling bane muta gets stuck around 2/2 because you don't already have an infestor pit, and you don't need as many infestors as mutas. Infestors recharge energy and mutas regen health, but it is easier to lose a muta here and there to marines as it is infestors which should stay in the back. Infestors may cost more per unit, but over 10 minutes of back and forth, zerg probably makes a lot more muta. Also, a good fungal can make your banelings much more cost effective since it denies splitting. But of course, with infestors, it's harder to keep the medivac numbers down, unless they clump and you get a nice chain fungal off.
But you kind of need mutas due to the threat of drops.
Also armor is useless against mines, they do spell damage.
There's no magical counter, you just need to be better than your opponent it seems.
I think there a lot of misunderstanding on what is going on. I am specifically focusing on 3/3 marines.
Widow Mines and Marauders are a completely different matter. (Although I am inclined to believe that widows could use some reworking because widow mines are actually hindering zerg units from making correct engagements, even with the creep advantage).
As for the balancing, yes, it's true how zerg is having a hard time at the moment. But for now, let's just give the meta some time to develop before we argue what's overpowered.
This analysis was meant to hopefully provide a possible solution for the zerg's problem against 3/3.
On August 12 2013 15:19 FakeDouble wrote: In today's series between Jaedong and Polt, there was one game where JD went ling bane infestor into quick hive and quick 3/3 upgrades. He survived the longest vs Polt in that game because he was 3/3 on ground vs 2/2. When Polt caught up to 3/3 JD started falling apart. Ling bane muta gets stuck around 2/2 because you don't already have an infestor pit, and you don't need as many infestors as mutas. Infestors recharge energy and mutas regen health, but it is easier to lose a muta here and there to marines as it is infestors which should stay in the back. Infestors may cost more per unit, but over 10 minutes of back and forth, zerg probably makes a lot more muta. But of course, with infestors, it's harder to keep the medivac numbers down, unless they clump and you get a nice chain fungal off.
Also armor is useless against mines, they do spell damage.
The worst part about Infestors is trying to deal with drops... that's an absolute nightmare unless you are really superb at multitasking. The Medivac count starts accumulating (very bad!), and Zerg loses the harassment utility of Mutalisks. The trade-off is that you can have more gas, especially if you invest in some static defense.
In the end, Zerg players probably need all four of those, but perhaps the order may be shifted around. Perhaps it would be cool to get out a couple of Infestors (to delay the push), and get Hive ASAP. Then, while Hive is done, get your 3/3 upgrades and throw down a Spire... only then do you get Mutalisks. Then finally you get Ultralisks?
Only Scarlett and Suppy (foreigners, oddly enough) regularly get a good hive timing vs terran, and try their best to get ultras and 3/3 out, Roro does a decent job at it too, but he has trouble holding a 4th on most maps. Zergs just about always have at least 100 gas floating, just drop an infestation pit! It's so common zergs start their 2/2 before the terran, but terran finish 3/3 before the zerg even has a fester pit down. You can give excuses, but you can't seriously tell me the zerg needed every single bit of gas throughout the entire game. If he spends 100 gas on a pit, instead of 1 mutalisk, he's not going to lose the game.
It takes a hell of a long time for zerg to get access to 3/3, don't wait til 2/2 is finished to start your fester pit.
I guess, ideally zerg wants more than 8 geysers then vs endless bio mine parade? That means taking a 5th just for gas and keeping it alive though which can be a tough ask.
Edit: zenbrez makes a good argument. It's 150 for infestor pit and 150 for hive so it's 3 mutas, but similar idea.
On August 12 2013 15:23 hansonslee wrote: I think there a lot of misunderstanding on what is going on. I am specifically focusing on 3/3 marines.
Widow Mines and Marauders are a completely different matter. (Although I am inclined to believe that widows could use some reworking because widow mines are actually hindering zerg units from making correct engagements, even with the creep advantage).
As for the balancing, yes, it's true how zerg is having a hard time at the moment. But for now, let's just give the meta some time to develop before we argue what's overpowered.
This analysis was meant to hopefully provide a possible solution for the zerg's problem against 3/3.
But there are not only 3/3 marines, also marauders. Ulralisks are not the ultimate solution in this case. A superior economy is still key which nowadays zerg players are struggled to get.
Yeah I was thinking about is it Jaedong's super late Hive and 3/3 that cost him 4 games in a row? But on the other hand, it seems he never actually got the spare money to spend on Infestation Pit and Hive because Polt was so aggressive that he can't spend resources on things other than lings and banes.
On August 12 2013 15:30 Zenbrez wrote: Only Scarlett and Suppy (foreigners, oddly enough) regularly get a good hive timing vs terran, and try their best to get ultras and 3/3 out, Roro does a decent job at it too, but he has trouble holding a 4th on most maps. Zergs just about always have at least 100 gas floating, just drop an infestation pit! It's so common zergs start their 2/2 before the terran, but terran finish 3/3 before the zerg even has a fester pit down. You can give excuses, but you can't seriously tell me the zerg needed every single bit of gas throughout the entire game. If he spends 100 gas on a pit, instead of 1 mutalisk, he's not going to lose the game.
It takes a hell of a long time for zerg to get access to 3/3, don't wait til 2/2 is finished to start your fester pit.
You need a Hive for 3/3 upgrades. That's a completed infestation pit plus the time it takes for the hive to morph. Then you can start the upgrades. Terran just needs an armory which incidentally they already have if they have +2/2. So no, it's not so simple as having 100 gas lying around.
On August 12 2013 15:30 Zenbrez wrote: Only Scarlett and Suppy (foreigners, oddly enough) regularly get a good hive timing vs terran, and try their best to get ultras and 3/3 out, Roro does a decent job at it too, but he has trouble holding a 4th on most maps. Zergs just about always have at least 100 gas floating, just drop an infestation pit! It's so common zergs start their 2/2 before the terran, but terran finish 3/3 before the zerg even has a fester pit down. You can give excuses, but you can't seriously tell me the zerg needed every single bit of gas throughout the entire game. If he spends 100 gas on a pit, instead of 1 mutalisk, he's not going to lose the game.
It takes a hell of a long time for zerg to get access to 3/3, don't wait til 2/2 is finished to start your fester pit.
You are totally disregarding total gas cost of
Infestor pit Hive 3/3 upgrade crackling
That is a lot of gas that otherwise might lead to you dying.
On August 12 2013 15:19 FakeDouble wrote: In today's series between Jaedong and Polt, there was one game where JD went ling bane infestor into quick hive and quick 3/3 upgrades. He survived the longest vs Polt in that game because he was 3/3 on ground vs 2/2. When Polt caught up to 3/3 JD started falling apart. Ling bane muta gets stuck around 2/2 because you don't already have an infestor pit, and you don't need as many infestors as mutas. Infestors recharge energy and mutas regen health, but it is easier to lose a muta here and there to marines as it is infestors which should stay in the back. Infestors may cost more per unit, but over 10 minutes of back and forth, zerg probably makes a lot more muta. But of course, with infestors, it's harder to keep the medivac numbers down, unless they clump and you get a nice chain fungal off.
Also armor is useless against mines, they do spell damage.
The worst part about Infestors is trying to deal with drops... that's an absolute nightmare unless you are really superb at multitasking. The Medivac count starts accumulating (very bad!), and Zerg loses the harassment utility of Mutalisks. The trade-off is that you can have more gas, especially if you invest in some static defense.
In the end, Zerg players probably need all four of those, but perhaps the order may be shifted around. Perhaps it would be cool to get out a couple of Infestors (to delay the push), and get Hive ASAP. Then, while Hive is done, get your 3/3 upgrades and throw down a Spire... only then do you get Mutalisks. Then finally you get Ultralisks?
I was wondering the same actually...
What if zerg wanted to get safely to 3/3 thanks to infestors (so they are on 3-4 bases, you can defend without muta)
And then, throw down a spire, upgrade mutalisks and add them to get a ~25 muta ball. Its pretty easy on 4/5 bases mining gas, especially if you already have your infestors... The other good point is that terran players will start adding marauders very early on once they see you are rushing Hive, and muta are the best answer to marauders in this matchup.
On August 12 2013 15:43 Msr wrote: is there a reason protoss and terran do not need another tech path for +3? Zerg has to add on two buildings.. one of them being completely useless
Different races are different. Unless you want all races to be the same...
P and T pay extra between +1s and +2s (twilight and armory). Z pays 'extra' between +2 and +3 (infestor pit, no you can't make an argument for spawning pool). Armory enables thors and hellbats which T may never get in biomine style, so it is 'useless' in a similar way infestor pit is 'useless' if you don't plan to make infestors or swarmhosts.
Nice post. Thank you for doing the analysis. I read it like 3 times trying to wrap my head around these numbers.
Off topic, there are 1 million and two reasons why zerg delays their upgrades.
1)banes don't need ups as much. 2)infestors don't need ups. 3)Ultras don't need ups (fast hive 2-2 ultras are rare, but still happen). 4) They can rely on superior economy to win games. The opportunity cost of fast ups is less eco. 5) Mutas can win games and every muta counts when you play mass muta style. 6) All ins. 1-1 and 2-2 death timings.
The problem is you can't get to hive tech properly since terran is so aggressive ALL game they are literally rallying units at you the whole game after 3cc opening, finding the time and resources to get ultras and 3/3 sometimes is impossible, especially on small maps like neo planet and bel shir. Thats why jaedong couldnt get ultras out on neo planet s vs polt, there is no time that your not being attacked so sometimes zerg is forced to stick on 2/2 ling bling muta.
On August 12 2013 15:30 Zenbrez wrote: Only Scarlett and Suppy (foreigners, oddly enough) regularly get a good hive timing vs terran, and try their best to get ultras and 3/3 out, Roro does a decent job at it too, but he has trouble holding a 4th on most maps. Zergs just about always have at least 100 gas floating, just drop an infestation pit! It's so common zergs start their 2/2 before the terran, but terran finish 3/3 before the zerg even has a fester pit down. You can give excuses, but you can't seriously tell me the zerg needed every single bit of gas throughout the entire game. If he spends 100 gas on a pit, instead of 1 mutalisk, he's not going to lose the game.
It takes a hell of a long time for zerg to get access to 3/3, don't wait til 2/2 is finished to start your fester pit.
You are totally disregarding total gas cost of
Infestor pit Hive 3/3 upgrade crackling
That is a lot of gas that otherwise might lead to you dying.
I'm aware, you didn't read what I said. The zerg is always floating gas, it's easy to drop a fester pit (I know 3/3 requires hive, @ the post above, but a pit is a step in the direction). The only time when zerg doesnt have 100 gas to spare is when they build as many mutas or banes as possible. Missing out on 1 muta or 4 banes is not going to single handedly kill you. Are you actually convinced that mutalisk is going to make the difference between a win and a loss? How do you think Scarlett pulls it off? Luck? I sure hope not.
On August 12 2013 15:30 Zenbrez wrote: Only Scarlett and Suppy (foreigners, oddly enough) regularly get a good hive timing vs terran, and try their best to get ultras and 3/3 out, Roro does a decent job at it too, but he has trouble holding a 4th on most maps. Zergs just about always have at least 100 gas floating, just drop an infestation pit! It's so common zergs start their 2/2 before the terran, but terran finish 3/3 before the zerg even has a fester pit down. You can give excuses, but you can't seriously tell me the zerg needed every single bit of gas throughout the entire game. If he spends 100 gas on a pit, instead of 1 mutalisk, he's not going to lose the game.
It takes a hell of a long time for zerg to get access to 3/3, don't wait til 2/2 is finished to start your fester pit.
You are totally disregarding total gas cost of
Infestor pit Hive 3/3 upgrade crackling
That is a lot of gas that otherwise might lead to you dying.
I'm aware, you didn't read what I said. The zerg is always floating gas, it's easy to drop a fester pit (I know 3/3 requires hive, @ the post above, but a pit is a step in the direction). The only time when zerg doesnt have 100 gas to spare is when they build as many mutas or banes as possible. Missing out on 1 muta or 4 banes is not going to single handedly kill you. Are you actually convinced that mutalisk is going to make the difference between a win and a loss? How do you think Scarlett pulls it off? Luck? I sure hope not.
Infestation pit - 100 gas Hive - 150 gas Total - 250 gas
On August 12 2013 15:30 Zenbrez wrote: Only Scarlett and Suppy (foreigners, oddly enough) regularly get a good hive timing vs terran, and try their best to get ultras and 3/3 out, Roro does a decent job at it too, but he has trouble holding a 4th on most maps. Zergs just about always have at least 100 gas floating, just drop an infestation pit! It's so common zergs start their 2/2 before the terran, but terran finish 3/3 before the zerg even has a fester pit down. You can give excuses, but you can't seriously tell me the zerg needed every single bit of gas throughout the entire game. If he spends 100 gas on a pit, instead of 1 mutalisk, he's not going to lose the game.
It takes a hell of a long time for zerg to get access to 3/3, don't wait til 2/2 is finished to start your fester pit.
You are totally disregarding total gas cost of
Infestor pit Hive 3/3 upgrade crackling
That is a lot of gas that otherwise might lead to you dying.
I'm aware, you didn't read what I said. The zerg is always floating gas, it's easy to drop a fester pit (I know 3/3 requires hive, @ the post above, but a pit is a step in the direction). The only time when zerg doesnt have 100 gas to spare is when they build as many mutas or banes as possible. Missing out on 1 muta or 4 banes is not going to single handedly kill you. Are you actually convinced that mutalisk is going to make the difference between a win and a loss? How do you think Scarlett pulls it off? Luck? I sure hope not.
Your post makes no sense man and proves you're in a lower league. No point in getting infestor pit unless you're sure you're going to use it. You don't just get it for the scenery.
You're basically confusing two different game PLANS. One is stay on 2-2 until you either win OR do game winning damage (then your transition). With this plan, you don't spend gas on anything else because you need it all to win. If you take gas away from your timing it's weaker and suddenly you sacrificed for a timing which won't work. And everything in sc2 is exponentially good or bad. So if it doesn't work, it will likely not work by a landslide.Two is get the 2-2 out to defend, get a solid foundation of bases, then go hive. Of course being flexible and adapting is the sign of any good player, but that doesn't change the initial plan.
There's a reason why pro zerg players play the way they do. It's like saying all Terrans should get a raven to clear creep. SOunds all fine and dandy, but actually not so good.
The problem mainly is that it is very hard for zergs to get hive and 3-3 up even at the same time as terrans do. 3-3 for terrans can come so much earlier that you don't even have a chance to go up to hive tech efficiently.
Mainly when their MMMM attacks start coming in zergs are trying to get good amount of mutas, and to set up their fourth base. Then you just have to constantly make units to even have a little chance against said attack. Now this is how it goes at the current metagame, even though some zergs play it out differently.
On August 12 2013 15:30 Zenbrez wrote: Only Scarlett and Suppy (foreigners, oddly enough) regularly get a good hive timing vs terran, and try their best to get ultras and 3/3 out, Roro does a decent job at it too, but he has trouble holding a 4th on most maps. Zergs just about always have at least 100 gas floating, just drop an infestation pit! It's so common zergs start their 2/2 before the terran, but terran finish 3/3 before the zerg even has a fester pit down. You can give excuses, but you can't seriously tell me the zerg needed every single bit of gas throughout the entire game. If he spends 100 gas on a pit, instead of 1 mutalisk, he's not going to lose the game.
It takes a hell of a long time for zerg to get access to 3/3, don't wait til 2/2 is finished to start your fester pit.
You are totally disregarding total gas cost of
Infestor pit Hive 3/3 upgrade crackling
That is a lot of gas that otherwise might lead to you dying.
I'm aware, you didn't read what I said. The zerg is always floating gas, it's easy to drop a fester pit (I know 3/3 requires hive, @ the post above, but a pit is a step in the direction). The only time when zerg doesnt have 100 gas to spare is when they build as many mutas or banes as possible. Missing out on 1 muta or 4 banes is not going to single handedly kill you. Are you actually convinced that mutalisk is going to make the difference between a win and a loss? How do you think Scarlett pulls it off? Luck? I sure hope not.
Scarlett having some success against Alive in WCS AM is not the same as facing Innovation or Flash in a TvZ.
On August 12 2013 17:22 Big J wrote: @OP: nice to have someone else do the math for once. But it's lacking half of the problem. A main part of the zerg army is going to be zerglings, and zerglings upgrade similarily as marines. Which means that marines having a +1armor advantage is also huge and makes for a 20% damage reduction. So not only do you get killed 16.6% faster, you also kill marines 20% slower with zerglings!
Um, did you not see the "Armor Analysis" section of the OP?
On August 12 2013 17:22 Big J wrote: @OP: nice to have someone else do the math for once. But it's lacking half of the problem. A main part of the zerg army is going to be zerglings, and zerglings upgrade similarily as marines. Which means that marines having a +1armor advantage is also huge and makes for a 20% damage reduction. So not only do you get killed 16.6% faster, you also kill marines 20% slower with zerglings!
Um, did you not see the "Armor Analysis" section of the OP?
On August 12 2013 17:22 Big J wrote: @OP: nice to have someone else do the math for once. But it's lacking half of the problem. A main part of the zerg army is going to be zerglings, and zerglings upgrade similarily as marines. Which means that marines having a +1armor advantage is also huge and makes for a 20% damage reduction. So not only do you get killed 16.6% faster, you also kill marines 20% slower with zerglings!
Um, did you not see the "Armor Analysis" section of the OP?
Uh lol, sorry. Tired. Read right over it.
Hey, I made this thread to illustrate how zergs have been struggling lately (personally, I was rooting for Jaedong who might as well be JaeKong) and how zergs might overcome the problem. Why present a painting when it's half-complete?
On August 12 2013 17:30 Yorbon wrote: I am not balance whining, but terran is just overpowered. Nothing i can do about that.
I am not calling you out but you are balance whining.
We really need to see some cool Overseer tactics which delay Terran's 3-3 until Zerg manages to do the same. Too bad Overseers cost gas, delaying Zerg's upgrades at the same time...
On August 12 2013 17:30 Yorbon wrote: I am not balance whining, but terran is just overpowered. Nothing i can do about that.
I am not calling you out but you are balance whining.
We really need to see some cool Overseer tactics which delay Terran's 3-3 until Zerg manages to do the same. Too bad Overseers cost gas, delaying Zerg's upgrades at the same time...
Didnt you read my post? i said i wasnt balance whining. ^^
On August 12 2013 17:30 Yorbon wrote: I am not balance whining, but terran is just overpowered. Nothing i can do about that.
I am not calling you out but you are balance whining.
We really need to see some cool Overseer tactics which delay Terran's 3-3 until Zerg manages to do the same. Too bad Overseers cost gas, delaying Zerg's upgrades at the same time...
Didnt you read my post? i said i wasnt balance whining. ^^
I'm not saying you're a little slow, but that's just strange. Nothing i can do about that. ^^
It's interesting to see numbers like this, but I am worried that people will draw too many conclusions from such limited data (which isn't the fault of the OP because it is impossible to do the math for every engagement situation).
This has to be the worst balance whine thread ever. Comparing 3-3 with 2-2 and 2-0 to make a point lol. How about changing it around, 2-2 marines against 3-3 roaches,zerglings and muta? At max upgrades zerglings are better then marines compared to everyone at 0-0 since zerg has the crackling upgrade
beg August 12 2013 14:47. Posts 736 Gift TL+ PM Profile Report Quote #
"hm, i never heard casters specifically talking about 3/3 vs lair, but rather "3/3 vs ling bling muta". i always wondered why 3/3 terran would be so special against 3/3 zerg. it makes no sense to me at all."
You are right, it does not make sense at all only tanks do get alot better when they get to +3 attack. But for that zerg has ultra and even roach upgrades wich also increase efficiency in a similar way. Against 3-3 marines 0-3 mutas are alot better then 3-0 mutas, so maybe analyse that. Its not our fault that zerg always wrongly goes for the attack upgrade lol.
On August 12 2013 17:51 Rassy wrote: This has to be the worst balance whine thread ever. Comparing 3-3 with 2-2 and 2-0 to make a point lol. How about changing it around, 2-2 marines against 3-3 roaches,zerglings and muta?
Did you read the scenarios I have established? I have clearly established why I have set up those situations.
First of all, what kind of terran progamer would stick with 2-2 marines against 3-3 zerg units? Of course, zerg will win in that case. Second, I have extrapolated some data on what would happen if zerg reached hive tech (3-3), and it turns out that zerg does have a fighting chance against 3-3 marines (and possibly the whole terran composition). Third, I even said that people should stop complaining about marines and try something else.
I can't speak for everyone who might use this data as a balance whine prop, but I certainly have no intention of saying Terran is OP or anything like that.
On August 12 2013 17:49 lichter wrote: It's interesting to see numbers like this, but I am worried that people will draw too many conclusions from such limited data (which isn't the fault of the OP because it is impossible to do the math for every engagement situation).
Yeah, I understand your concern. But, unfortunately, that's beyond me. I just wanted to present this just to add a bit of perspective, for I don't think what I said was extremely revolutionary. Also, you are right. In theory-crafting, it is very hard to create a hardcore simulation of the game, which is why I wrote down some notes and scenarios to suggest how my guesswork is based on certain conditions.
But why analyse such a highly specific scenario then? People already say in this thread that zerglings upgrade similar to marines. That you take 2-0 or 3-0 for mutas i can understand (though i would prefer 0-2/0-3 since that is better against marines) but zerglings should have equall upgrades. It might take a long time for zerg to reach 3-3 but this goes for terran as well. Well annyway:Ty for analysis. its interesting data none the less, showing the huge power upgrades have for the t1 units.
The thing wich i find most disadvanteous for zerg is that they have to upgrade range seperatly wich forces zerg to kinda make a choise if he wants to get to 3-3 (therefor as zerg i would always go for the armour first to nullify the opponents attack upgrades against all zerg units) Terran has to upgrade mech seperatly but you realy need only 1 attack upgrade for that (to make tanks 1 shot even 3-3 lings and banes) while with zerg range the upgrade is a bit more desireable against 3-3 enemys even though technically +1 for roaches gives the highest % damage increase for anny unit that does 10+ damage.
I also do see how zerg is strugling atm, so a few complaints about certain things are valid
When I was playing, if could neutralize splash, then nothing zerg has can remotely trade with a blob of 3/3 marines on an equally foot ala MarineKing.
Speedvac and Widow mines just made it more viable atleast in the short term (until its figured out) to use them since you can be more mobile with them and make it extremely hard for them to be chased around by banelings. Sure you had tanks in WoL but tanks were a massive liability and ended up being a useless sunk cost during hive tech TvZ compared to widow mines.
On August 12 2013 18:00 Rassy wrote: But why analyse such a highly specifi scenario then? People already say in this thread that zerglings upgrade similar to marines. That you take 2-0 or 3-0 for mutas i can understand (though i would prefer 0-2/0-3 since that is better against marines) but zerglings should have equall upgrades. It might take a long time for zerg to reach 3-3 but this goes for terran as well. Well annyway:Ty for analysis. its interesting data none the less, showing the huge power upgrades have for the t1 units.
The scenarios I introduce are meant to simplify the analysis. Yes, it's not perfect, and some people definitely are right to point that some factors that are limiting in my analysis. Unfortunately, this method is the best way I can think of to manifest the metagame into concrete math.
As a person who studied science, I understand that limiting scenarios don't reveal the whole picture, but sometimes such simplification is required to make concrete models and conclusions within our control. After all, whenever we test or hypothesize a concept, we have to limit the amount of independent variables to observe a comfortable amount of dependent variables and assert a very conservative conclusion.
The thing wich i find most disadvanteous for zerg is that they have to upgrade range seperatly wich forces zerg to kinda make a choise if he wants to get to 3-3 (therefor as zerg i would always go for the armour first to nullify the opponents attack upgrades against all zerg units) Terran has to upgrade mech seperatly but you realy need only 1 attack upgrade for that (to make tanks 1 shot even 3-3 lings and banes) while with zerg range the upgrade is a bit more desireable against 3-3 enemys even though technically +1 for roaches gives the highest % damage increase for anny unit that does 10+ damage.
I actually don't have an opinion on that matter, because I don't usually see ranged units used in ZvT (unless I am watching HyuN or Idra). Usually, zerg ranged units are not a good opinion because they don't have splash damage.
I believe that 0/2 Mutas are probably better than 2/0, but keep in mind that 0/2 costs more and ultimately, I'd rather have 2/0 Mutas and earlier Hive.
On August 12 2013 18:14 Entirety wrote: I believe that 0/2 Mutas are probably better than 2/0, but keep in mind that 0/2 costs more and ultimately, I'd rather have 2/0 Mutas and earlier Hive.
There is actually a debate on that. Back in WoL when mutalisks were pretty popular, there were some Zerg players who researched air armor instead of weapons. But majority of the progamers researched weapons because they believe that mutalisks are mainly damage dealing units for harassment.
I thought about including 2/2 mutalisks into the analysis because I thought that usually would be an unlikely scenario because gas is being constantly used for units and other stuff.
You can't be cost efficient against bio, especially 3/3, if you don't have infestors both lock them in place and do aoe damage. Zergs are still completely dependent on the infestor as a unit.
On August 12 2013 18:14 Entirety wrote: I believe that 0/2 Mutas are probably better than 2/0, but keep in mind that 0/2 costs more and ultimately, I'd rather have 2/0 Mutas and earlier Hive.
There is actually a debate on that. Back in WoL when mutalisks were pretty popular, there were some Zerg players who researched air armor instead of weapons. But majority of the progamers researched weapons because they believe that mutalisks are mainly damage dealing units for harassment.
I thought about including 2/2 mutalisks into the analysis because I thought that usually would be an unlikely scenario because gas is being constantly used for units and other stuff.
in WoL you actually went armor>attack due to what you write in the OP in HotS the situation has changed, because mutalisks regenerate very fast now. Getting all your mutas in the red isn't immidiatly gameending anymore in HotS.
The basic dynamics of mutalisks suggest: armor > attack for a matchup with a single big battle with a core combat role (like ZvZ muta vs muta) attack > armor for a matchup with many battles with a supporting role (like ZvT)
One commonly overlooked strength of marines (and terran bio in general) is their dps "density"; basically you can fit a whole lot of marines in a small area (which makes them more effective for things like advancing on/defending chokepoints). If marines each took up the same amount of space that a stalker did (without changing anything else), they'd probably be garbage.
Of course, they are more vulnerable to aoe because of it, but the state of aoe abilities in the game is a whole other discussion.
On August 12 2013 19:07 SplashbackFerret wrote: One commonly overlooked strength of marines (and terran bio in general) is their dps "density"; basically you can fit a whole lot of marines in a small area (which makes them more effective for things like advancing on/defending chokepoints). If marines each took up the same amount of space that a stalker did (without changing anything else), they'd probably be garbage.
Of course, they are more vulnerable to aoe because of it, but the state of aoe abilities in the game is a whole other discussion.
it's not overlooked. And you can't discuss dps "density" without discussing aoe. Aoe is the weakness to this dps density. Once marines are split up, lings become so much more effective - decreasing the marine density (decreased damage output) and increasing the ling attack surface area (Increased damage input).
I think the main reason in zerg's huge problem from switch lair to hive is that terran can faster maxing (and remaxing) than zerg, therefore not enough minerals and gas left für Hive and Hive buildungs. Terran is the macro race in Hots TvZ.
On August 12 2013 22:53 Dingodile wrote: I think the main reason in zerg's huge problem from switch lair to hive is that terran can faster maxing (and remaxing) than zerg, therefore not enough minerals and gas left für Hive and Hive buildungs. Terran is the macro race in Hots TvZ.
You build 10 ultralisks that's 60 supply in a min. Terran can't build faster than that.
On August 12 2013 22:53 Dingodile wrote: I think the main reason in zerg's huge problem from switch lair to hive is that terran can faster maxing (and remaxing) than zerg, therefore not enough minerals and gas left für Hive and Hive buildungs. Terran is the macro race in Hots TvZ.
You build 10 ultralisks that's 60 supply in a min. Terran can't build faster than that.
Um...no? A typical 3 base terran doing mmmm with 10 barracks (take your pick of addons), 2 factories and 2 starports does exactly that. Scary huh?
And then T drops some Mules.
Anyways this "science" is garbage, it's not scientific at all, just attaching words you don't understand for attention. Call it analysis maybe, but it doesn't take a genius to work out that 3/3 ups is better than 2/2 ups, especially when mutas don't tend not be upgraded to 2/2 in the first place.
Also marines do not overkill. no projectile and all that. So the DPS goes up by almost exactly as much as advertised (whereas for anything else, it will be less than advertised).
On August 12 2013 22:53 Dingodile wrote: I think the main reason in zerg's huge problem from switch lair to hive is that terran can faster maxing (and remaxing) than zerg, therefore not enough minerals and gas left für Hive and Hive buildungs. Terran is the macro race in Hots TvZ.
You build 10 ultralisks that's 60 supply in a min. Terran can't build faster than that.
Interesting, tell me how this work if you dont have hive. Apparently only Ultralisk can max and remax faster than t. I was talking about max and remaxing before Hive tech.
On August 12 2013 14:47 beg wrote: hm, i never heard casters specifically talking about 3/3 vs lair, but rather "3/3 vs ling bling muta". i always wondered why 3/3 terran would be so special against 3/3 zerg. it makes no sense to me at all.
it is not. 3-3 upgrades on bio vs ling neutralize each other. marauder get 3 extra dmg on ultralisks in comparison to 0-0, but ultralisks get massively more dmg so here the favor lies even on the zerg side. you kill off air units and buildings really fast, but same goes for zerglings against buildings (esp. with adrenalin glances). overall you could say, 3-3 vs 3-3 favors zerg a bit more, because of ultralisks (allways in comparison to 0-0). that terran units become overwhelmingly strong, when everyone has 3-3 is a fairy tale, nothing else.
On August 12 2013 14:47 beg wrote: hm, i never heard casters specifically talking about 3/3 vs lair, but rather "3/3 vs ling bling muta". i always wondered why 3/3 terran would be so special against 3/3 zerg. it makes no sense to me at all.
it is not. 3-3 upgrades on bio vs ling neutralize each other. marauder get 3 extra dmg on ultralisks in comparison to 0-0, but ultralisks get massively more dmg so here the favor lies even on the zerg side. you kill off air units and buildings really fast, but same goes for zerglings against buildings (esp. with adrenalin glances). overall you could say, 3-3 vs 3-3 favors zerg a bit more, because of ultralisks (allways in comparison to 0-0). that terran units become overwhelmingly strong, when everyone has 3-3 is a fairy tale, nothing else.
As I've said before, you can be 3-3 vs 3-3 in TvZ, Ultras, Lings and Blings can't fight efficiently against Terran bio if Infestors aren't there to lock them down and do Aoe damage.
Ultra/Infestor does really well though. It's up to Terran after that to drop well.
On August 12 2013 22:53 Dingodile wrote: I think the main reason in zerg's huge problem from switch lair to hive is that terran can faster maxing (and remaxing) than zerg, therefore not enough minerals and gas left für Hive and Hive buildungs. Terran is the macro race in Hots TvZ.
You build 10 ultralisks that's 60 supply in a min. Terran can't build faster than that.
Interesting, tell me how this work if you dont have hive. Apparently only Ultralisk can max and remax faster than t. I was talking about max and remaxing before Hive tech.
Reread what you wrote. You say nothing about not having a hive. When transitioning from lair to hive 10 ultralisks isnt uncommon. I think what you are trying to say is that Lair zergs don't generally have money to get hive and upgrades and ultra den and still have money for hive units all while replenishing units lost in engagements. . That's not always true, see scarlett vs alive game 1.
Basic facts: 3-3 bio vs 2-2 zerg is extremely powerful. You can try to say that "Extremely" is subjective, but compared to other units, for the cost, for the supply and for the space take on the field, I'm pretty sure it's straight fact, which is what I'm getting at.
+3 weapons for bio means ridiculously high damage output in an area, which is especially worth considering when trying to destroy buildings (namely bases), such as from drops or small troupes charging to snipe a base. Similar zerg forces will likely involve more mêlée units and possibly "short-range" (4), roaches, which also take up more space, meaning less units fit into the same area, so the damage output even with +3 is lower, especially once stim is taken into account.
It does seem like terran is getting ahead in upgrades a lot more often these days. Are Zergs these days generally staying on mutalisks for longer before getting a hive? Is it something to do with mines being introduced and somehow helping terran to afford the upgrades sooner?
On August 13 2013 00:08 Fuchsteufelswild wrote: Basic facts: 3-3 bio vs 2-2 zerg is extremely powerful. You can try to say that "Extremely" is subjective, but compared to other units, for the cost, for the supply and for the space take on the field, I'm pretty sure it's straight fact, which is what I'm getting at.
+3 weapons for bio means ridiculously high damage output in an area, which is especially worth considering when trying to destroy buildings (namely bases), such as from drops or small troupes charging to snipe a base. Similar zerg forces will likely involve more mêlée units and possibly "short-range" (4), roaches, which also take up more space, meaning less units fit into the same area, so the damage output even with +3 is lower, especially once stim is taken into account.
It does seem like terran is getting ahead in upgrades a lot more often these days. Are Zergs these days generally staying on mutalisks for longer before getting a hive? Is it something to do with mines being introduced and somehow helping terran to afford the upgrades sooner?
I think it has to do with the fact that muta/ling/bling playstyle usually means alot of action and constant production of large amount of banelings. Spending gas on an infestation pit and then on hive at that stage of the game when the terran is in your face is simply not prioritized by the zerg. If its because of the resources or not im not sure but they get stuck on 2-2 for so long. I would like to see something done about this tbh. The second your 2-2 finishes as terran you can start 3-3 while the zerg has to have made an infestation pit (which is not so fun when you are spending all your gas on muta/bling and cant afford infestors) and teched to hive.
TLDR: As a zerg, NEVER EVER settle with Lair tech, even if you have a huge lead! 3/3 marines are very powerful in the middle-late game. Get your hive tech to reach to the late game phase! So, no more balance whining about marines please!
i always thought about this when i watch dongraegu he is sooooooo good with muta ling bane but stays on lair foooooorevvvverrrrr i mean a really long time and i never understood why he couldnt just get hive and get three three for lings and muta but im ok with zerg waiting and staying on lair tech it helps me win lol but really i think if zerg can some how get there 3-3 faster then i dont think marines would be to hard to deal with
On August 12 2013 22:53 Dingodile wrote: I think the main reason in zerg's huge problem from switch lair to hive is that terran can faster maxing (and remaxing) than zerg, therefore not enough minerals and gas left für Hive and Hive buildungs. Terran is the macro race in Hots TvZ.
You build 10 ultralisks that's 60 supply in a min. Terran can't build faster than that.
10 Ultras is 60supply in 55seconds buildtime. Terran does remax just as fast.
Now how much production would a Terran need to produce 60supply of 4M in ~1min? techlab barracks produces 4supply/min in marauders reactor barracks produces 4.8supply/min in marines reactor starport produces 5.6supply/min in medivacs reactor factory produces 6supply/min in widow mines So a regular lategame setup with ~10barracks, 2factories (one with techlab) and 1starport produces 50-60supply per minute.
So a standard Terran setup in the current metagame does actually produce supply just as fast as that (though supply isn't everything, 10ultras are quite higher quality than that 4M army, though also quite more expensive and you can't produce 10 of them every minute, unlike the Terran)!
On August 13 2013 00:16 starslayer wrote: TLDR: As a zerg, NEVER EVER settle with Lair tech, even if you have a huge lead! 3/3 marines are very powerful in the middle-late game. Get your hive tech to reach to the late game phase! So, no more balance whining about marines please!
i always thought about this when i watch dongraegu he is sooooooo good with muta ling bane but stays on lair foooooorevvvverrrrr i mean a really long time and i never understood why he couldnt just get hive and get three three for lings and muta but im ok with zerg waiting and staying on lair tech it helps me win lol but really i think if zerg can some how get there 3-3 faster then i dont think marines would be to hard to deal with
While Terran produces units, attacks, and harasses, he does not need to spend nearly as much gas as Zerg does to react to this.
With the spare gas, Terran goes for 3/3 upgrades which are much more accessible. It's also worth pointing out that no other unit upgrades are relevant with Terran, just the marines.
So if both get 2/2 ground evenly, Terran is much more likely to have the 500 gas required to get 3/3. Zerg needs 750 to reach 3/3 on melee, and also needs to upgrade Mutalisks at the same time. However, he's starved on gas from producting and losing mutas + banes to marines.
All the OP seems to say is "2/2 vs 2/2 is the same as 3/3 vs 3/3. Therefore all Zerg needs to do is get 3/3 at the same time. I just solved Zerg's biggest problem in the TvZ matchup"
It ignores all the factors that create the difficulty. It's like answering a 'why did i lose to this push' with 'you should have had more marauders'
It does seem like terran is getting ahead in upgrades a lot more often these days. Are Zergs these days generally staying on mutalisks for longer before getting a hive? Is it something to do with mines being introduced and somehow helping terran to afford the upgrades sooner?
Zergs, in many many games, cannot afford to spend gas for hive and 3/3 + adrenals because they have to fight against an endless stream of MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM. Mines make the fight inefficient for zergs (you can say whatever about this, it won't change a fact) so they must have a more costy army to fight and they'll have to subtract those resources from teching. Zergs wins by either all-inning (god knows how low the win rate would be without roach ling bane and stuff like that) or during the small window of 2-2 vs 2-2... most of the times, that is.
This could be fixed with a buff to mutas against marines/mines in specific. They cost a lot of gas and they are great units (the buff must not make them any better vs P, they are already beasts). The problem is that they are very very bad vs MMMM and very very good vs drops (the only Z thing that does well vs them) so you have to make them and, therefore, you'll have a weaker army than what you could have without worrying of drops. Roach hydra doesn't fight badly vs bio at all (they actually stomp bio with infestor viper) but you're very exposed to drops.
On August 12 2013 22:53 Dingodile wrote: I think the main reason in zerg's huge problem from switch lair to hive is that terran can faster maxing (and remaxing) than zerg, therefore not enough minerals and gas left für Hive and Hive buildungs. Terran is the macro race in Hots TvZ.
You build 10 ultralisks that's 60 supply in a min. Terran can't build faster than that.
10 Ultras is 60supply in 55seconds buildtime. Terran does remax just as fast.
Now how much production would a Terran need to produce 60supply of 4M in ~1min? techlab barracks produces 4supply/min in marauders reactor barracks produces 4.8supply/min in marines reactor starport produces 5.6supply/min in medivacs reactor factory produces 6supply/min in widow mines So a regular lategame setup with ~10barracks, 2factories (one with techlab) and 1starport produces 50-60supply per minute.
So a standard Terran setup in the current metagame does actually produce supply just as fast as that (though supply isn't everything, 10ultras are quite higher quality than that 4M army, though also quite more expensive and you can't produce 10 of them every minute, unlike the Terran)!
i think zerg should use burrowed banelings way more. I dont talk about 2 banelings, more like 3-4 packs of 2 banelings in the common attack paths. i really think that could be the answer to this style. jaedong kinda tried it, but i think that wasnt enough. i mean terran has to scan , they lose mules this way and if zergs would get better with spreading the mines etc, they maybe have to go raven what would change the matchup quite hard i guess. but maybe thats only my theory^^
On August 13 2013 00:16 starslayer wrote: TLDR: As a zerg, NEVER EVER settle with Lair tech, even if you have a huge lead! 3/3 marines are very powerful in the middle-late game. Get your hive tech to reach to the late game phase! So, no more balance whining about marines please!
Learned that in WoL pre-infestor era :D going as 7 base zerg against 2 base terran with 100 supply lead for me. Apparently 2/2 ling bane muta swarm can be obliterated in seconds by small army of marines especially off creep
On August 13 2013 00:35 The_Red_Viper wrote: i think zerg should use burrowed banelings way more. I dont talk about 2 banelings, more like 3-4 packs of 2 banelings in the common attack paths. i really think that could be the answer to this style. jaedong kinda tried it, but i think that wasnt enough. i mean terran has to scan , they lose mules this way and if zergs would get better with spreading the mines etc, they maybe have to go raven what would change the matchup quite hard i guess. but maybe thats only my theory^^
In game 3 JD did use baneling mines quite well and he killed 50 scvs with constant runbys but somehow polt still had scans available and could afford units non stop. I thought JD played a very good game and a very fun but hard style, just wish he would have been rewarded a bit more for it.
On August 13 2013 00:35 The_Red_Viper wrote: i think zerg should use burrowed banelings way more. I dont talk about 2 banelings, more like 3-4 packs of 2 banelings in the common attack paths. i really think that could be the answer to this style. jaedong kinda tried it, but i think that wasnt enough. i mean terran has to scan , they lose mules this way and if zergs would get better with spreading the mines etc, they maybe have to go raven what would change the matchup quite hard i guess. but maybe thats only my theory^^
In game 3 JD did use baneling mines quite well and he killed 50 scvs with constant runbys but somehow polt still had scans available and could afford units non stop. I thought JD played a very good game and a very fun but hard style, just wish he would have been rewarded a bit more for it.
He forgot about his burrowed banes quite a bit...
On August 12 2013 15:30 Zenbrez wrote: Only Scarlett and Suppy (foreigners, oddly enough) regularly get a good hive timing vs terran, and try their best to get ultras and 3/3 out, Roro does a decent job at it too, but he has trouble holding a 4th on most maps. Zergs just about always have at least 100 gas floating, just drop an infestation pit! It's so common zergs start their 2/2 before the terran, but terran finish 3/3 before the zerg even has a fester pit down. You can give excuses, but you can't seriously tell me the zerg needed every single bit of gas throughout the entire game. If he spends 100 gas on a pit, instead of 1 mutalisk, he's not going to lose the game.
It takes a hell of a long time for zerg to get access to 3/3, don't wait til 2/2 is finished to start your fester pit.
This is so true. I don't understand why Zergs love to delay their Hive tech. Just the Cracklings themselves are an important upgrade to get.
On August 13 2013 00:35 The_Red_Viper wrote: i think zerg should use burrowed banelings way more. I dont talk about 2 banelings, more like 3-4 packs of 2 banelings in the common attack paths. i really think that could be the answer to this style. jaedong kinda tried it, but i think that wasnt enough. i mean terran has to scan , they lose mules this way and if zergs would get better with spreading the mines etc, they maybe have to go raven what would change the matchup quite hard i guess. but maybe thats only my theory^^
In game 3 JD did use baneling mines quite well and he killed 50 scvs with constant runbys but somehow polt still had scans available and could afford units non stop. I thought JD played a very good game and a very fun but hard style, just wish he would have been rewarded a bit more for it.
I think it wasnt enough landmines, iirc he used most of his banelings to kill workers, where simple lings would have done the same job. dont know if it is doable, but 4 landmines at least with 2-3 banelings (how much is the best?) should be quite strong i would think.
Lings can't take marines at the same numbers, what make the zergs survive are banelings, and them lings take the rest of the marines. But if 3-3 marines deal way to much DPS to banelings and lings, and survive longer, what gets even stronger when they are if medivacs. Dont know why people think lings can take out marines, they cant, the banelings ( who dont won a considerable boost if upgrades), they are the one who tanks. And who said "Marauders only do +3 damage to ultras using 3-3", plz a marauder gets +9 dmg in comparison to 0-0.
On August 13 2013 00:55 Mocking wrote: Lings can't take marines at the same numbers, what make the zergs survive are banelings, and them lings take the rest of the marines. But if 3-3 marines deal way to much DPS to banelings and lings, and survive longer, what gets even stronger when they are if medivacs. Dont know why people think lings can take out marines, they cant, the banelings ( who dont won a considerable boost if upgrades), they are the one who tanks. And who said "Marauders only do +3 damage to ultras using 3-3", plz a marauder gets +9 dmg in comparison to 0-0.
On August 13 2013 00:16 starslayer wrote: TLDR: As a zerg, NEVER EVER settle with Lair tech, even if you have a huge lead! 3/3 marines are very powerful in the middle-late game. Get your hive tech to reach to the late game phase! So, no more balance whining about marines please!
i always thought about this when i watch dongraegu he is sooooooo good with muta ling bane but stays on lair foooooorevvvverrrrr i mean a really long time and i never understood why he couldnt just get hive and get three three for lings and muta but im ok with zerg waiting and staying on lair tech it helps me win lol but really i think if zerg can some how get there 3-3 faster then i dont think marines would be to hard to deal with
While Terran produces units, attacks, and harasses, he does not need to spend nearly as much gas as Zerg does to react to this.
With the spare gas, Terran goes for 3/3 upgrades which are much more accessible. It's also worth pointing out that no other unit upgrades are relevant with Terran, just the marines.
So if both get 2/2 ground evenly, Terran is much more likely to have the 500 gas required to get 3/3. Zerg needs 750 to reach 3/3 on melee, and also needs to upgrade Mutalisks at the same time. However, he's starved on gas from producting and losing mutas + banes to marines.
All the OP seems to say is "2/2 vs 2/2 is the same as 3/3 vs 3/3. Therefore all Zerg needs to do is get 3/3 at the same time. I just solved Zerg's biggest problem in the TvZ matchup"
It ignores all the factors that create the difficulty. It's like answering a 'why did i lose to this push' with 'you should have had more marauders'
Don't lose mutas? I've noticed that Scarlett's muta retention was amazing versus alive - allowing her to save gas for tech instead. With the new movespeed and regen buff, Zergs have no excuse to lose mutas except their own ability.
Also, please for the love of God split your units. Losing 20 lings to a banes means that 20 lings were clumped! It doesn't mean that widow-mines are OP. Yeah they are OP if you clump, but the same can be said for banelings and infestors and high templars. No shit sherlock if you clump you die hardcore to AoE damage.
Problem with burrowed Banelings is that they have bad LOS and they need to be detonated manually by the Zerg (unlike Widow Mines). It requires so much APM at a high level to have your banelings detonate at just the right time that it's almost gimmicky and can't be used reliably. Those are at least my impressions, as I've seen top zergs fail to detonate their banelings SO many times when the results could have been awesome.
On August 13 2013 00:55 Mocking wrote: Lings can't take marines at the same numbers, what make the zergs survive are banelings, and them lings take the rest of the marines. But if 3-3 marines deal way to much DPS to banelings and lings, and survive longer, what gets even stronger when they are if medivacs. Dont know why people think lings can take out marines, they cant, the banelings ( who dont won a considerable boost if upgrades), they are the one who tanks. And who said "Marauders only do +3 damage to ultras using 3-3", plz a marauder gets +9 dmg in comparison to 0-0.
You should really read again the whole thing.
He should also learn the statistics of all races first, probably by starting with his own. Marauders gain +2 vs armoured IN TOTAL per upgrade. It's +1 & +1 more vs Armoured per upgrade, so 13/26 (vs Armoured) at +3/+3. 26 is 6 more than 20.
On August 13 2013 02:49 Incognoto wrote: Problem with burrowed Banelings is that they have bad LOS and they need to be detonated manually by the Zerg (unlike Widow Mines). It requires so much APM at a high level to have your banelings detonate at just the right time that it's almost gimmicky and can't be used reliably. Those are at least my impressions, as I've seen top zergs fail to detonate their banelings SO many times when the results could have been awesome.
That's not the only way to use banes - they can also roll up to you; which widow mines cannot do. Manual detonation against normal speed marines (they are rarely stimmed unless engaged in combat) is definitely not too difficult at the top level - especially when you can have a ling running around to scout for army movement.
On August 13 2013 02:49 Incognoto wrote: Problem with burrowed Banelings is that they have bad LOS and they need to be detonated manually by the Zerg (unlike Widow Mines). It requires so much APM at a high level to have your banelings detonate at just the right time that it's almost gimmicky and can't be used reliably. Those are at least my impressions, as I've seen top zergs fail to detonate their banelings SO many times when the results could have been awesome.
That's not the only way to use banes - they can also roll up to you; which widow mines cannot do. Manual detonation against normal speed marines (they are rarely stimmed unless engaged in combat) is definitely not too difficult at the top level - especially when you can have a ling running around to scout for army movement.
I'm not saying Banelings are a bad unit, far from that. I think they're actually one of Zerg's best units.
My point is that burrowing banelings aren't as good as the rolling ones. Burrowing banelings can work but it requires so much babysitting that's pretty much not worth it. Once a top Zerg starts to use them continuously in TvZ with good results, don't worry I'll eat my words.
On August 13 2013 00:55 Mocking wrote: Lings can't take marines at the same numbers, what make the zergs survive are banelings, and them lings take the rest of the marines. But if 3-3 marines deal way to much DPS to banelings and lings, and survive longer, what gets even stronger when they are if medivacs. Dont know why people think lings can take out marines, they cant, the banelings ( who dont won a considerable boost if upgrades), they are the one who tanks. And who said "Marauders only do +3 damage to ultras using 3-3", plz a marauder gets +9 dmg in comparison to 0-0.
You should really read again the whole thing.
He should also learn the statistics of all races first, probably by starting with his own. Marauders gain +2 vs armoured IN TOTAL per upgrade. It's +1 & +1 more vs Armoured per upgrade, so 13/26 (vs Armoured) at +3/+3. 26 is 6 more than 20.
Ultras also have 1 natural armor and another +2 with Chitinous Plating. So with full upgrades, marauders really are only doing 3 points of damage better.
On August 13 2013 02:49 Incognoto wrote: Problem with burrowed Banelings is that they have bad LOS and they need to be detonated manually by the Zerg (unlike Widow Mines). It requires so much APM at a high level to have your banelings detonate at just the right time that it's almost gimmicky and can't be used reliably. Those are at least my impressions, as I've seen top zergs fail to detonate their banelings SO many times when the results could have been awesome.
Don't confuse APM and attention. Detonating 2 Banelings = one action, it doesn't require "so much apm," but it does require to watch at the right time. Which, indeed, is difficult when you're busy somewhere else.
On August 13 2013 02:49 Incognoto wrote: Problem with burrowed Banelings is that they have bad LOS and they need to be detonated manually by the Zerg (unlike Widow Mines). It requires so much APM at a high level to have your banelings detonate at just the right time that it's almost gimmicky and can't be used reliably. Those are at least my impressions, as I've seen top zergs fail to detonate their banelings SO many times when the results could have been awesome.
Don't confuse APM and attention. Detonating 2 Banelings = one action, it doesn't require "so much apm," but it does require to watch at the right time. Which, indeed, is difficult when you're busy somewhere else.
I worded that poorly but you've managed to convey what I meant, indeed, you can't sit there watching your banelings when you have many other things to do! xD
Another problem with the burrowed banelings is that quite often, the bio is actually split into rather small groups that are barely worth the baneling costs even after manually detonating in the right timing. If we count gas as being worth the same as minerals:
- Marine = 50 minerals - Baneling = 75 "mineral value", - 2 banelings to kill a marine - 75÷50×2=3 ∴ You have to hit at least 3 to trade evenly.
More realistically, considering how many more minerals you have available, gas is arguably worth roughly closer to 2 minerals each.
- Marine = 50 minerals - Baneling = 100 "mineral value", - 2 banelings to kill a marine 100÷50×2=4 ∴ You have to hit at least 4 to trade evenly.
Now you see groups of 5 to 8 being killed reasonably often, but for something that requires setup, can be killed with detection for complete loss of resources for the zerg, + Show Spoiler +
(scan or you could have a Raven flying with the Marines, Medivacs and Mines seeing as plenty o' terrans float gas)
and which cannot build as quickly as marines (25 build time en masse versus 24+20 for zerglings into banelings), it's really not much of a profit, if any over time, unless you get lucky with a pair of hits that kill a good 10+ at a time and even then, one of those alone won't do so much if it's not too early in the game.
On August 13 2013 00:55 Mocking wrote: Lings can't take marines at the same numbers, what make the zergs survive are banelings, and them lings take the rest of the marines. But if 3-3 marines deal way to much DPS to banelings and lings, and survive longer, what gets even stronger when they are if medivacs. Dont know why people think lings can take out marines, they cant, the banelings ( who dont won a considerable boost if upgrades), they are the one who tanks. And who said "Marauders only do +3 damage to ultras using 3-3", plz a marauder gets +9 dmg in comparison to 0-0.
You should really read again the whole thing.
He should also learn the statistics of all races first, probably by starting with his own. Marauders gain +2 vs armoured IN TOTAL per upgrade. It's +1 & +1 more vs Armoured per upgrade, so 13/26 (vs Armoured) at +3/+3. 26 is 6 more than 20.
Ultras also have 1 natural armor and another +2 with Chitinous Plating. So with full upgrades, marauders really are only doing 3 points of damage better.
They deal 6 more when they (marauders) have +3 compared to when they (marauders) have +0. That was what I was clarifying about his point.
With these comparisons, you're probably always going to suppose the Ultralisk has its Chitinious Plating and you can't just assume it somehow drops its natural +1 armour so no. Your point means this: Marauders with +3 damage upgrades only deal 3 points of extra damage against Ultralisks than they deal when they have +0 weapon upgrades....against non-existent make-believe Ultralisks that have 0 natural armour and haven't got Chitinous Plating for some odd reason. It's not relevant.
On August 12 2013 15:02 darkscream wrote: The issue is more that all terran players do is try to get super aggressive right when the zerg would like to go Hive, they never feel safe buying upgrades/tech because they have to keep making banelings.
I think it goes without saying that the longer a game is, the more important it is to finish your upgrades. Finding the money to do it at the right times is easier said than done.
terran should be aggressive. Turtling against a zerg and letting him tech up to hive is a good way to lose. the onis is on zerg to find the 300/250 resources to obtain hive tech.
On August 13 2013 02:49 Incognoto wrote: Problem with burrowed Banelings is that they have bad LOS and they need to be detonated manually by the Zerg (unlike Widow Mines). It requires so much APM at a high level to have your banelings detonate at just the right time that it's almost gimmicky and can't be used reliably. Those are at least my impressions, as I've seen top zergs fail to detonate their banelings SO many times when the results could have been awesome.
That's not the only way to use banes - they can also roll up to you; which widow mines cannot do. Manual detonation against normal speed marines (they are rarely stimmed unless engaged in combat) is definitely not too difficult at the top level - especially when you can have a ling running around to scout for army movement.
Burrowed Banelings are all fine and dandy, but they require Burrow upgrade (again, more GAS), precise positioning (Terran army needs to walk DIRECTLY over them) and constant awareness. And they can't even be used once Terran is streaming his troops towards your base. Widow Mine has none of those limitations. And considering all of Z army is melee, whereas T is all range, Terran has no need for Widow Mines to 'roll' when they can just poke with couple of units and then retreat to mine field.
The issues I see are as follows: 1. Terran has no need for gas save for upgrades and they only need to upgrade Bio. This makes Mules too powerful in this particular match-up. Just check TvP. Terrans have to use additional tech (Vikings and Ghosts) to fight Protoss and this delays their upgrades considerably.
2. Zerg has no way to deal efficiently with Widow Mines. Hydralisk is the only reasonable Zerg unit that can outrange Widow Mine and therefore kill it without the need to trigger it (which requires additional APM and unit sacrifice). Unfortunately, Hydralisk is horribly cost inefficient and even worse vs. Bio than Mutalisks. Only other units capable of dealing with mines are Swarm Hosts (lol) and Brood Lords (gl getting to them).
I feel like making Hydralisk into a core Zerg unit would solve a lot of issues. It solves Zerg's lack of anti-air options vs. Toss and gives them an equal footing versus Terrans. It's an iconic Starcraft unit, yet it sees (and for good reason) almost no use.
On August 13 2013 02:49 Incognoto wrote: Problem with burrowed Banelings is that they have bad LOS and they need to be detonated manually by the Zerg (unlike Widow Mines). It requires so much APM at a high level to have your banelings detonate at just the right time that it's almost gimmicky and can't be used reliably. Those are at least my impressions, as I've seen top zergs fail to detonate their banelings SO many times when the results could have been awesome.
That's not the only way to use banes - they can also roll up to you; which widow mines cannot do. Manual detonation against normal speed marines (they are rarely stimmed unless engaged in combat) is definitely not too difficult at the top level - especially when you can have a ling running around to scout for army movement.
Burrowed Banelings are all fine and dandy, but they require Burrow upgrade (again, more GAS), precise positioning (Terran army needs to walk DIRECTLY over them) and constant awareness. And they can't even be used once Terran is streaming his troops towards your base. Widow Mine has none of those limitations. And considering all of Z army is melee, whereas T is all range, Terran has no need for Widow Mines to 'roll' when they can just poke with couple of units and then retreat to mine field.
The issues I see are as follows: 1. Terran has no need for gas save for upgrades and they only need to upgrade Bio. This makes Mules too powerful in this particular match-up. Just check TvP. Terrans have to use additional tech (Vikings and Ghosts) to fight Protoss and this delays their upgrades considerably.
2. Zerg has no way to deal efficiently with Widow Mines. Hydralisk is the only reasonable Zerg unit that can outrange Widow Mine and therefore kill it without the need to trigger it (which requires additional APM and unit sacrifice). Unfortunately, Hydralisk is horribly cost inefficient and even worse vs. Bio than Mutalisks. Only other units capable of dealing with mines are Swarm Hosts (lol) and Brood Lords (gl getting to them).
I feel like making Hydralisk into a core Zerg unit would solve a lot of issues. It solves Zerg's lack of anti-air options vs. Toss and gives them an equal footing versus Terrans. It's an iconic Starcraft unit, yet it sees (and for good reason) almost no use.
On most maps, paths armies take can be very predictable. You say that Terran is ranged, and ignore that Zerg has the much higher mobility. If you want to only focus on the benefits of 4m and only the drawbacks of ling/bane/muta; I'm not suriprised you see the MU as being imbalanced.
There are other ways to defuse mines without out-ranging them - widow mine friendlyfire is a serious drawback that Zergs love to ignore. Jaedong over-makes mutas, and we hear complains about gas constraints, QQ. Clumps units, complains about how a WM can kill 20 units. If you clump units, psi-storm will eat through armies too.
I always thought it was silly that ranged units can shoot through each other. What if it was changed so ranged units can't shoot through friendly units that are between them and the target? There could be some exceptions of course for things like siege mode and colossi.
Would change the game for units like roaches and hydra too, so could be balanced.
Yea nevermind. Its too large a change for Blizz to ever consider.
On August 12 2013 15:43 Msr wrote: is there a reason protoss and terran do not need another tech path for +3? Zerg has to add on two buildings.. one of them being completely useless
It's a throwback to SC1. During the beta, it was found that a lot of "macro players" would just mass up the best a-move unit and max out upgrades. Back then "macro players" was a dirty word... funny how times change. Anyway Blizzard design teams didn't like this (and I still agree with them), so they put in upgrade requirements to open up tech choices as well as just going mass 1 unit with upgrades.
-Note, I'm certainly not calling terrans a-move players if they make mostly marines vs Zerg. Marines take a lot of micro and are fun to use and watch. Zerg definitely has to consider the power of 3/3 marines carefully though, as they obviously can wreck lair tech with 2/2 as we see often. My vote is on infestors and/or +3 armor for zerg ground... very critical.
On August 13 2013 02:49 Incognoto wrote: Problem with burrowed Banelings is that they have bad LOS and they need to be detonated manually by the Zerg (unlike Widow Mines). It requires so much APM at a high level to have your banelings detonate at just the right time that it's almost gimmicky and can't be used reliably. Those are at least my impressions, as I've seen top zergs fail to detonate their banelings SO many times when the results could have been awesome.
That's not the only way to use banes - they can also roll up to you; which widow mines cannot do. Manual detonation against normal speed marines (they are rarely stimmed unless engaged in combat) is definitely not too difficult at the top level - especially when you can have a ling running around to scout for army movement.
I'm not saying Banelings are a bad unit, far from that. I think they're actually one of Zerg's best units.
My point is that burrowing banelings aren't as good as the rolling ones. Burrowing banelings can work but it requires so much babysitting that's pretty much not worth it. Once a top Zerg starts to use them continuously in TvZ with good results, don't worry I'll eat my words.
Polt vs Revival, IEM Shanghai, neo planet s... Even though I'm not sure what happened before the midgame.
TLDR: As a zerg, NEVER EVER settle with Lair tech, even if you have a huge lead! 3/3 marines are very powerful in the middle-late game. Get your hive tech to reach to the late game phase! So, no more balance whining about marines please!
Easier said than done... Infestation pit, hive, 3/3 and adrenal glands cost a lot of gas.
When you're making the choice to delay your hive tech, it's usually because Terran is applying a lot of pressure on you and you cannot afford to spend resources elsewhere than on units. Very stupid statement to be honest.
On August 13 2013 02:49 Incognoto wrote: Problem with burrowed Banelings is that they have bad LOS and they need to be detonated manually by the Zerg (unlike Widow Mines). It requires so much APM at a high level to have your banelings detonate at just the right time that it's almost gimmicky and can't be used reliably. Those are at least my impressions, as I've seen top zergs fail to detonate their banelings SO many times when the results could have been awesome.
Don't confuse APM and attention. Detonating 2 Banelings = one action, it doesn't require "so much apm," but it does require to watch at the right time. Which, indeed, is difficult when you're busy somewhere else.
The problem with burrowed Banelings isn't the APM to pop them. It's that you're reliant on your opponent not scanning in order to make them work. It's a gamble on your part to sacrifice 3-4 Banelings to "hope" your opponent makes a mistake. You don't control the outcome of it at all, because even with your baiting, the default reaction of every Terran is to scan ahead to make sure they don't get caught by surprise.
On August 13 2013 04:11 plogamer wrote: There are other ways to defuse mines without out-ranging them - widow mine friendlyfire is a serious drawback that Zergs love to ignore. Jaedong over-makes mutas, and we hear complains about gas constraints, QQ. Clumps units, complains about how a WM can kill 20 units. If you clump units, psi-storm will eat through armies too.
A Widow Mine INSTANTLY kills 20-30 supply worth of ling/bling. You can minimize the damage running into Storms by pulling out and still save half your army. You have no such luck ever with Widow Mines, and you will never have the speed to "dodge" WM hits since you can't predict where they'll pop, like how you can see where a Storm exists. It's even been said that the progamers aren't even manually targetting their WM fire yet. I'm not saying it's imbalanced. I'm saying it's just so ridiculously hit or miss. If they have 8 WM, you need to send at least 3-4 waves of 8-9 Zerglings in order to trigger them, because any less and they'll die to the bio before activating the mine. It's so ridiculous that there's no other way of getting through WM other than rushing Ultralisks and letting them soak up the damage.
3/3 MMM has a stupid-high damage output, stupid-low cost, stupid-high speed, and stupid-high healing ability
Terran players love it, so they all hate on this thread. Zerg players die to it too often, so they cry on this thread. Toss players, like myself, die to it fairly often as well, so they simply hate Terran for being OP in far too many aspects of the game
Zerg Hatchery tech blows, Lair tech is far too easily countered, and Hive tech is absolutely NECESSARY to defeat the Terran's BARRACKS UNITS....good lord
On August 13 2013 16:39 ROOTdrewbie wrote: 5.23 dps vs ultras =[ lol fail
compared to a roach(6.5), stalker(7.6), zealot(8.32), 2marines look like icecold ultralisk killers
Terrans don't have a better alternative against ultralisks since their production is almost always used for marines/widowmines/medivacs to combat the ling/bane/muta.
Yeah after it gets scouted, a Terran can start mixing in marauders - the only Terran response to ultralisks. Make tanks? No you get rolled by lings and mutas. And less marines mean that mutas and speedlings are stronger - and marauders are not good against either mutas or speedlings. So no tanks. Thors? Hah. Push with thors and your bases will be run-over before your army gets to the Zerg base. Banshees? Sigh... I wish.
Then if marauders don't kill the Zerg - the incoming brood-tech spells doom. Widow-mines are now going to do more friendly-fire damage than ever. Now Terran starts mixing in vikings. Vikings suck against every ground from Zerg in standard TvZ - except banelings.
/edit
On August 14 2013 11:14 leova wrote: TLDR for the last 6 pages:
3/3 MMM has a stupid-high damage output, stupid-low cost, stupid-high speed, and stupid-high healing ability
Terran players love it, so they all hate on this thread. Zerg players die to it too often, so they cry on this thread. Toss players, like myself, die to it fairly often as well, so they simply hate Terran for being OP in far too many aspects of the game
Zerg Hatchery tech blows, Lair tech is far too easily countered, and Hive tech is absolutely NECESSARY to defeat the Terran's BARRACKS UNITS....good lord
Man, I know you're not a bad person, but this post is so idiotic. It's just such blatently mongering hate against Terrans for "being OP". That's all you brought to the thread. It is downright offensive and pathetic.
Your only contribution to this thread is that you "die to it fairly often as well" as a Protoss. Good job dying to marine/medivac/widow mines composition as a Protoss. Maybe you need more practice.
On August 14 2013 11:14 leova wrote: TLDR for the last 6 pages:
3/3 MMM has a stupid-high damage output, stupid-low cost, stupid-high speed, and stupid-high healing ability
Terran players love it, so they all hate on this thread. Zerg players die to it too often, so they cry on this thread. Toss players, like myself, die to it fairly often as well, so they simply hate Terran for being OP in far too many aspects of the game
Zerg Hatchery tech blows, Lair tech is far too easily countered, and Hive tech is absolutely NECESSARY to defeat the Terran's BARRACKS UNITS....good lord
Just like how the Widow Mine parade is defended by Zerglings, which are HATCHERY units... right?
Seriously, why doesn't the inclusion of Widow Mines (T2) and Medivacs (T3), along with Level 3 Upgrades, make Biomine + Medivac a tier-3 army? It really should be considered as such.
Besides, what other options does Terran have for tier 3?
Battlecruisers/Skyterran? Nope. Thors? Err nope - Neural Parasite and Feedback! Maxed-out Mech army? Has potential... but it's shut down by Brood Lords and anything Protoss.
I'm pretty sure that Biomine/Medivac IS the only tier-3 that Terrans have.
On August 14 2013 14:14 Entirety wrote: Seriously, why doesn't the inclusion of Widow Mines (T2) and Medivacs (T3), along with Level 3 Upgrades, make Biomine + Medivac a tier-3 army? It really should be considered as such.
Besides, what other options does Terran have for tier 3?
Battlecruisers/Skyterran? Nope. Thors? Err nope - Neural Parasite and Feedback! Maxed-out Mech army? Has potential... but it's shut down by Brood Lords and anything Protoss.
I'm pretty sure that Biomine/Medivac IS the only tier-3 that Terrans have.
Actually, if you really wanted to shoehorn T into tiers, the requirements of medivacs class them as more of a T2 unit (compare with hydra, muta or infestor techtree).
The fact that it can be mistaken for T3 because of how good it gets sort of showcases the issue. I've always had the vague impression that bio (or, actually, the marine) was left way too strong, and as a result everything else from T has to suck to make up for it. It might be a cool idea to design a race around needing a core army of cheap, almost zero-cost (mineral) units and then adding costly (gas) support as you see fit, but in order to do that you need diminishing returns on the mineral troops. That's pretty much not true at the moment.
The biggest problem of widow mines, I think, is that zerg cant counter-attack after managing to do a great engagement because he has to clean all the widow mines first.
I hope the overseer-buff will help to fix this problem of the widow mines.
Maybe blizzard could also think about giving widow mines some ammo. Like, the widow mine can hit 2/3 times. But then, terran has to click on "reload ammo" for the widow mines to reload 1 ammo.
This way, terran cant forgot widow mines onto the creep. It takes APM for zerg to clean the widow mines, and it takes APM for terran to reload it. Yeah, balanced.
On August 14 2013 14:14 Entirety wrote: Seriously, why doesn't the inclusion of Widow Mines (T2) and Medivacs (T3), along with Level 3 Upgrades, make Biomine + Medivac a tier-3 army? It really should be considered as such.
Besides, what other options does Terran have for tier 3?
Battlecruisers/Skyterran? Nope. Thors? Err nope - Neural Parasite and Feedback! Maxed-out Mech army? Has potential... but it's shut down by Brood Lords and anything Protoss.
I'm pretty sure that Biomine/Medivac IS the only tier-3 that Terrans have.
Actually, if you really wanted to shoehorn T into tiers, the requirements of medivacs class them as more of a T2 unit (compare with hydra, muta or infestor techtree).
The fact that it can be mistaken for T3 because of how good it gets sort of showcases the issue. I've always had the vague impression that bio (or, actually, the marine) was left way too strong, and as a result everything else from T has to suck to make up for it. It might be a cool idea to design a race around needing a core army of cheap, almost zero-cost (mineral) units and then adding costly (gas) support as you see fit, but in order to do that you need diminishing returns on the mineral troops. That's pretty much not true at the moment.
Medivacs are T3 because Terran tech goes Barracks, Factory, and Starport. In fact, Terran armies are extremely similar to Protoss armies. They are made up of a T1 core (Marine/Marauder vs. Zealot/Stalker/Sentry) and are supported by gas-heavy T3 (Medivacs vs. Colossi/Templar). You could argue that the core is also basically T2 (because Widow Mines are T2 and Charge/Blink are T2).
Anyway, tiers may seem like nitpicking or mere disagreements over terminology. The real point I'm trying to make is that Biomine/Medivac is a perfectly valid lategame army, not some tier 1 rubbish. That's why Terrans get Combat Shield, Stim, and pump out those +3/+3 upgrades.
Also, note that a pack of Zerglings with Adrenal Glands will easily clean up a similarly sized pack of Marines. Also note that Zealots with Charge absolutely maul Marine/Marauder. In fact, Marines are the weakest basic unit at tier-3 without support.
To be honest, I believe the whole reason people believe this "tier 1" idea got started is because Medivacs don't attack. If Medivacs were attacking units like Banshees or Colossi, people would be fine calling it a tier 3 army. Instead, the Medivac's role is purely support, so people start believing that the core of the army is tier 1 and thus the entire army is tier 1... when in reality, Marines suck hard without the support of tier 3 Medivacs and tier 2 Widow Mines and even tier 2 Ghosts and tier 3 Vikings.
Also, note that a pack of Zerglings with Adrenal Glands will easily clean up a similarly sized pack of Marines. Also note that Zealots with Charge absolutely maul Marine/Marauder. In fact, Marines are the weakest basic unit at tier-3 without support.
Are you sure about this? Zerglings still have really low hit points and are melee. Marines, while not particularly tanky, are ranged, can shoot air and ground and have some really nice dps and they CAN be healed.
Maybe in small numbers a pack of 16 cracklings beat 3-3 marines (not even sure of this) but if we're talking about 50 Marines vs 100 lings then pathing becomes such a bad issue that I'm sure that marines win quite handily, especially if the terrain isn't wide open.
On August 14 2013 16:12 Insoleet wrote: The biggest problem of widow mines, I think, is that zerg cant counter-attack after managing to do a great engagement because he has to clean all the widow mines first.
I hope the overseer-buff will help to fix this problem of the widow mines.
Maybe blizzard could also think about giving widow mines some ammo. Like, the widow mine can hit 2/3 times. But then, terran has to click on "reload ammo" for the widow mines to reload 1 ammo.
This way, terran cant forgot widow mines onto the creep. It takes APM for zerg to clean the widow mines, and it takes APM for terran to reload it. Yeah, balanced.
Great idea, just make it like loading scarabs. 15 minerals per reload and a little more apm from the terran. Widow mine would still be insanely powerful and used just as much, but require more attention and a little bit of resources.
Also, note that a pack of Zerglings with Adrenal Glands will easily clean up a similarly sized pack of Marines. Also note that Zealots with Charge absolutely maul Marine/Marauder. In fact, Marines are the weakest basic unit at tier-3 without support.
Are you sure about this? Zerglings still have really low hit points and are melee. Marines, while not particularly tanky, are ranged, can shoot air and ground and have some really nice dps and they CAN be healed.
Maybe in small numbers a pack of 16 cracklings beat 3-3 marines (not even sure of this) but if we're talking about 50 Marines vs 100 lings then pathing becomes such a bad issue that I'm sure that marines win quite handily, especially if the terrain isn't wide open.
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I'm right?
Yes I was referring to moderately-sized packs. Healing is irrelevant - Zerglings heal more because we're totally ignoring Medivacs here. I think people overestimate the power of 3-3 Marines because they always have Medivacs overhead. Without those Medivacs, Marines aren't ridiculous anymore, and that was my point: Marines as T1 units don't work, just like pure Zergling/Zealot T1 armies do not work. Medivacs are absolutely crucial.
On August 12 2013 15:43 Msr wrote: is there a reason protoss and terran do not need another tech path for +3? Zerg has to add on two buildings.. one of them being completely useless
Different races are different. Unless you want all races to be the same...
P and T pay extra between +1s and +2s (twilight and armory). Z pays 'extra' between +2 and +3 (infestor pit, no you can't make an argument for spawning pool). Armory enables thors and hellbats which T may never get in biomine style, so it is 'useless' in a similar way infestor pit is 'useless' if you don't plan to make infestors or swarmhosts.
Not entirely correct, (ignoring builds and most other factors on overlapping time)
correct me on that if i'm wrong, tried to search what i could (mostly on liquipedia).
A lot of costs can be removed due to necessity of those buildings regardless, but assuming a strong economy for everything streamlined think that would be roughly it. On Terran side we can remove the cost from barracks (since orbital requires that) and on zergs we could remove the cost of spawning pools since zergs need that for queens (macro/eco mechanics that assuming would always be around). This would still make zergs upgrades cost more, if you take into account timings affected by resources then it skew things since it takes roughly 60s for 100 gas from 1 geyser. Zerg's first upgrades are costier which would delay when they could potentially start it but 2nd and 3rd from Terran is costier which could delay theirs slightly. But that all depends on strategies employed (especially gas wise spendings) so it's very hard for me to add any relevant thing to that.
Bottomline, they're the same on time needed if pure streamlined, zergs are costier overall and have requirements for every step which might narrow options strategy wise but i'm not going there :p. They behave differently throughout the game, units have different costs that reflect the race's nature, etc etc... Becomes to hard to reach anything with so many variants as the OP mentioned somewhere as well, at least when it comes to balance. Resource management and strategy/building streamlining seem to be the limiting factor, not the time or number of buildings required since most seem to be "possible" to overlap with buildings, just nasty to have the eco for that with all possible things going around.
On August 14 2013 11:14 leova wrote: TLDR for the last 6 pages:
3/3 MMM has a stupid-high damage output, stupid-low cost, stupid-high speed, and stupid-high healing ability
Terran players love it, so they all hate on this thread. Zerg players die to it too often, so they cry on this thread. Toss players, like myself, die to it fairly often as well, so they simply hate Terran for being OP in far too many aspects of the game
Zerg Hatchery tech blows, Lair tech is far too easily countered, and Hive tech is absolutely NECESSARY to defeat the Terran's BARRACKS UNITS....good lord
Just like how the Widow Mine parade is defended by Zerglings, which are HATCHERY units... right?
Seriously, why doesn't the inclusion of Widow Mines (T2) and Medivacs (T3), along with Level 3 Upgrades, make Biomine + Medivac a tier-3 army? It really should be considered as such.
Besides, what other options does Terran have for tier 3?
Battlecruisers/Skyterran? Nope. Thors? Err nope - Neural Parasite and Feedback! Maxed-out Mech army? Has potential... but it's shut down by Brood Lords and anything Protoss.
I'm pretty sure that Biomine/Medivac IS the only tier-3 that Terrans have.
no way MMMM is T3. Medivacs are tier 2 at most. Ravens/Banshees/Thors/BCs are only terran units that get any close to definition of Tier 3.
On August 14 2013 11:14 leova wrote: TLDR for the last 6 pages:
3/3 MMM has a stupid-high damage output, stupid-low cost, stupid-high speed, and stupid-high healing ability
Terran players love it, so they all hate on this thread. Zerg players die to it too often, so they cry on this thread. Toss players, like myself, die to it fairly often as well, so they simply hate Terran for being OP in far too many aspects of the game
Zerg Hatchery tech blows, Lair tech is far too easily countered, and Hive tech is absolutely NECESSARY to defeat the Terran's BARRACKS UNITS....good lord
Think you're needing a lot of practice then if you're losing to this as protoss
On August 14 2013 11:14 leova wrote: TLDR for the last 6 pages:
3/3 MMM has a stupid-high damage output, stupid-low cost, stupid-high speed, and stupid-high healing ability
Terran players love it, so they all hate on this thread. Zerg players die to it too often, so they cry on this thread. Toss players, like myself, die to it fairly often as well, so they simply hate Terran for being OP in far too many aspects of the game
Zerg Hatchery tech blows, Lair tech is far too easily countered, and Hive tech is absolutely NECESSARY to defeat the Terran's BARRACKS UNITS....good lord
Just like how the Widow Mine parade is defended by Zerglings, which are HATCHERY units... right?
Seriously, why doesn't the inclusion of Widow Mines (T2) and Medivacs (T3), along with Level 3 Upgrades, make Biomine + Medivac a tier-3 army? It really should be considered as such.
Besides, what other options does Terran have for tier 3?
Battlecruisers/Skyterran? Nope. Thors? Err nope - Neural Parasite and Feedback! Maxed-out Mech army? Has potential... but it's shut down by Brood Lords and anything Protoss.
I'm pretty sure that Biomine/Medivac IS the only tier-3 that Terrans have.
no way MMMM is T3. Medivacs are tier 2 at most. Ravens/Banshees/Thors/BCs are only terran units that get any close to definition of Tier 3.
And we can see how great those are if they are the main army...
On August 14 2013 14:14 Entirety wrote: Seriously, why doesn't the inclusion of Widow Mines (T2) and Medivacs (T3), along with Level 3 Upgrades, make Biomine + Medivac a tier-3 army? It really should be considered as such.
Besides, what other options does Terran have for tier 3?
Battlecruisers/Skyterran? Nope. Thors? Err nope - Neural Parasite and Feedback! Maxed-out Mech army? Has potential... but it's shut down by Brood Lords and anything Protoss.
I'm pretty sure that Biomine/Medivac IS the only tier-3 that Terrans have.
Actually, if you really wanted to shoehorn T into tiers, the requirements of medivacs class them as more of a T2 unit (compare with hydra, muta or infestor techtree).
The fact that it can be mistaken for T3 because of how good it gets sort of showcases the issue. I've always had the vague impression that bio (or, actually, the marine) was left way too strong, and as a result everything else from T has to suck to make up for it. It might be a cool idea to design a race around needing a core army of cheap, almost zero-cost (mineral) units and then adding costly (gas) support as you see fit, but in order to do that you need diminishing returns on the mineral troops. That's pretty much not true at the moment.
Medivacs are T3 because Terran tech goes Barracks, Factory, and Starport. In fact, Terran armies are extremely similar to Protoss armies. They are made up of a T1 core (Marine/Marauder vs. Zealot/Stalker/Sentry) and are supported by gas-heavy T3 (Medivacs vs. Colossi/Templar). You could argue that the core is also basically T2 (because Widow Mines are T2 and Charge/Blink are T2).
Anyway, tiers may seem like nitpicking or mere disagreements over terminology. The real point I'm trying to make is that Biomine/Medivac is a perfectly valid lategame army, not some tier 1 rubbish. That's why Terrans get Combat Shield, Stim, and pump out those +3/+3 upgrades.
Also, note that a pack of Zerglings with Adrenal Glands will easily clean up a similarly sized pack of Marines. Also note that Zealots with Charge absolutely maul Marine/Marauder. In fact, Marines are the weakest basic unit at tier-3 without support.
To be honest, I believe the whole reason people believe this "tier 1" idea got started is because Medivacs don't attack. If Medivacs were attacking units like Banshees or Colossi, people would be fine calling it a tier 3 army. Instead, the Medivac's role is purely support, so people start believing that the core of the army is tier 1 and thus the entire army is tier 1... when in reality, Marines suck hard without the support of tier 3 Medivacs and tier 2 Widow Mines and even tier 2 Ghosts and tier 3 Vikings.
so... Pool -> Lair -> Spire -> Infestationpit -> Hive -> Greater spire
Also, note that a pack of Zerglings with Adrenal Glands will easily clean up a similarly sized pack of Marines. Also note that Zealots with Charge absolutely maul Marine/Marauder. In fact, Marines are the weakest basic unit at tier-3 without support.
Are you sure about this? Zerglings still have really low hit points and are melee. Marines, while not particularly tanky, are ranged, can shoot air and ground and have some really nice dps and they CAN be healed.
Maybe in small numbers a pack of 16 cracklings beat 3-3 marines (not even sure of this) but if we're talking about 50 Marines vs 100 lings then pathing becomes such a bad issue that I'm sure that marines win quite handily, especially if the terrain isn't wide open.
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I'm right?
Lings win in low numbers and gradually lose harder and harder as both army sizes increase and terrain etc gets in the way.
Tested that for both of you: Open ground, equal upgrades, stim+combat shield vs speed+crack
20 marines vs 40 lings: 7 lings left (20 marines lost for 33 killed)
50 marines vs 100 lings: 35 marines left (15 lost for 100 killed)
100 marines vs 200 lings: 75 marines left (25 lost for 200 killed)
By this point, because i just put the marines in a ball instead of arranging them optimally, the scaling is worse. I said at the start i'd just stim when the last marine fired, but it didn't even start attacking for a while with only attack moved lings, so the stim was late, they could have traded better than 4:1, even in completely open ground. You get point though, it's pretty crazy scaling here
Micro is advantageous for the marines in smaller numbers and stim+shields come before adrenal glands, and medivacs come in, so marines are great vs unsupported lings
To be honest, I believe the whole reason people believe this "tier 1" idea got started is because Medivacs don't attack. If Medivacs were attacking units like Banshees or Colossi, people would be fine calling it a tier 3 army
I don't think you can call factory tier 2, it's not like a mutalisk or infestor, nor an immortal, blink/charge tech etc. Hellions and widow mines are easy to make, and Banshees frequently come for early harass, or to look back at WOL TvP, in 1-1-1's. Factory-starport is too accessible to be called tier 3
On August 13 2013 02:49 Incognoto wrote: Problem with burrowed Banelings is that they have bad LOS and they need to be detonated manually by the Zerg (unlike Widow Mines). It requires so much APM at a high level to have your banelings detonate at just the right time that it's almost gimmicky and can't be used reliably. Those are at least my impressions, as I've seen top zergs fail to detonate their banelings SO many times when the results could have been awesome.
Don't confuse APM and attention. Detonating 2 Banelings = one action, it doesn't require "so much apm," but it does require to watch at the right time. Which, indeed, is difficult when you're busy somewhere else.
The real issue with Baneling bombs is that Zergs have gotten extremely diligent with their creep spread, and Terrans have gotten extremely diligent with preventing full map-coverage.
What does this mean? Bombs planted on creep will always be scanned because they're on creep (and creep is constantly scanned to get cleared), and Bombs planted ahead of creep will either be covered in creep soon, or are so far forward that your opponent probably spots it before they even burrow.
On August 12 2013 15:43 Msr wrote: is there a reason protoss and terran do not need another tech path for +3? Zerg has to add on two buildings.. one of them being completely useless
Different races are different. Unless you want all races to be the same...
P and T pay extra between +1s and +2s (twilight and armory). Z pays 'extra' between +2 and +3 (infestor pit, no you can't make an argument for spawning pool). Armory enables thors and hellbats which T may never get in biomine style, so it is 'useless' in a similar way infestor pit is 'useless' if you don't plan to make infestors or swarmhosts.
[snipped]
If you include the cost of a drone, then you need to include mining time lost for Terran.
On August 14 2013 10:46 Blisse wrote: A Widow Mine INSTANTLY kills 20-30 supply worth of ling/bling. You can minimize the damage running into Storms by pulling out and still save half your army. You have no such luck ever with Widow Mines, and you will never have the speed to "dodge" WM hits since you can't predict where they'll pop, like how you can see where a Storm exists. It's even been said that the progamers aren't even manually targetting their WM fire yet. I'm not saying it's imbalanced. I'm saying it's just so ridiculously hit or miss. If they have 8 WM, you need to send at least 3-4 waves of 8-9 Zerglings in order to trigger them, because any less and they'll die to the bio before activating the mine. It's so ridiculous that there's no other way of getting through WM other than rushing Ultralisks and letting them soak up the damage.
A Mine hitting the very heart of a tight clump (= Zerg's fault for not spreading, even roughly) of lings/banes kills at most ~25 units, i. e. 12-13 supply, not "20-30". Splitting exists, flanks exist, running past Terran's frontline so Mines splash Terran's units exists, etc., so stop pretending Zerg can't do anything to mitigate Mines' splash. By this "yet," I assume you imply this will become standard as Terrans get better? Well no, because SC2 = fast and furious, everything happens in 2-3 seconds and it will never be within human ability to manually target the densest areas of Zerg's swarm every major fight considering you already have to split Marines.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.swagling.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/zergling_featured.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://distilleryimage0.s3.amazonaws.com/a5fea1468a4b11e2a76e22000a9f1968_6.jpg)
only tanks do get alot better when they get to +3 attack. But for that zerg has ultra and even roach upgrades wich also increase efficiency in a similar way.
