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On August 13 2013 02:58 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 02:49 Incognoto wrote:
Problem with burrowed Banelings is that they have bad LOS and they need to be detonated manually by the Zerg (unlike Widow Mines). It requires so much APM at a high level to have your banelings detonate at just the right time that it's almost gimmicky and can't be used reliably. Those are at least my impressions, as I've seen top zergs fail to detonate their banelings SO many times when the results could have been awesome. Don't confuse APM and attention. Detonating 2 Banelings = one action, it doesn't require "so much apm," but it does require to watch at the right time. Which, indeed, is difficult when you're busy somewhere else.
The problem with burrowed Banelings isn't the APM to pop them. It's that you're reliant on your opponent not scanning in order to make them work. It's a gamble on your part to sacrifice 3-4 Banelings to "hope" your opponent makes a mistake. You don't control the outcome of it at all, because even with your baiting, the default reaction of every Terran is to scan ahead to make sure they don't get caught by surprise.
On August 13 2013 04:11 plogamer wrote:
There are other ways to defuse mines without out-ranging them - widow mine friendlyfire is a serious drawback that Zergs love to ignore. Jaedong over-makes mutas, and we hear complains about gas constraints, QQ. Clumps units, complains about how a WM can kill 20 units. If you clump units, psi-storm will eat through armies too.
A Widow Mine INSTANTLY kills 20-30 supply worth of ling/bling. You can minimize the damage running into Storms by pulling out and still save half your army. You have no such luck ever with Widow Mines, and you will never have the speed to "dodge" WM hits since you can't predict where they'll pop, like how you can see where a Storm exists. It's even been said that the progamers aren't even manually targetting their WM fire yet. I'm not saying it's imbalanced. I'm saying it's just so ridiculously hit or miss. If they have 8 WM, you need to send at least 3-4 waves of 8-9 Zerglings in order to trigger them, because any less and they'll die to the bio before activating the mine. It's so ridiculous that there's no other way of getting through WM other than rushing Ultralisks and letting them soak up the damage.
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TLDR for the last 6 pages:
3/3 MMM has a stupid-high damage output, stupid-low cost, stupid-high speed, and stupid-high healing ability
Terran players love it, so they all hate on this thread. Zerg players die to it too often, so they cry on this thread. Toss players, like myself, die to it fairly often as well, so they simply hate Terran for being OP in far too many aspects of the game
Zerg Hatchery tech blows, Lair tech is far too easily countered, and Hive tech is absolutely NECESSARY to defeat the Terran's BARRACKS UNITS....good lord 
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On August 14 2013 10:34 Big J wrote:compared to a roach(6.5), stalker(7.6), zealot(8.32), 2marines look like icecold ultralisk killers 
Terrans don't have a better alternative against ultralisks since their production is almost always used for marines/widowmines/medivacs to combat the ling/bane/muta.
Yeah after it gets scouted, a Terran can start mixing in marauders - the only Terran response to ultralisks. Make tanks? No you get rolled by lings and mutas. And less marines mean that mutas and speedlings are stronger - and marauders are not good against either mutas or speedlings. So no tanks. Thors? Hah. Push with thors and your bases will be run-over before your army gets to the Zerg base. Banshees? Sigh... I wish.
Then if marauders don't kill the Zerg - the incoming brood-tech spells doom. Widow-mines are now going to do more friendly-fire damage than ever. Now Terran starts mixing in vikings. Vikings suck against every ground from Zerg in standard TvZ - except banelings.
/edit
On August 14 2013 11:14 leova wrote:TLDR for the last 6 pages: 3/3 MMM has a stupid-high damage output, stupid-low cost, stupid-high speed, and stupid-high healing ability Terran players love it, so they all hate on this thread. Zerg players die to it too often, so they cry on this thread. Toss players, like myself, die to it fairly often as well, so they simply hate Terran for being OP in far too many aspects of the game Zerg Hatchery tech blows, Lair tech is far too easily countered, and Hive tech is absolutely NECESSARY to defeat the Terran's BARRACKS UNITS....good lord
Man, I know you're not a bad person, but this post is so idiotic. It's just such blatently mongering hate against Terrans for "being OP". That's all you brought to the thread. It is downright offensive and pathetic.
Your only contribution to this thread is that you "die to it fairly often as well" as a Protoss. Good job dying to marine/medivac/widow mines composition as a Protoss. Maybe you need more practice.
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On August 14 2013 11:14 leova wrote:TLDR for the last 6 pages: 3/3 MMM has a stupid-high damage output, stupid-low cost, stupid-high speed, and stupid-high healing ability Terran players love it, so they all hate on this thread. Zerg players die to it too often, so they cry on this thread. Toss players, like myself, die to it fairly often as well, so they simply hate Terran for being OP in far too many aspects of the game Zerg Hatchery tech blows, Lair tech is far too easily countered, and Hive tech is absolutely NECESSARY to defeat the Terran's BARRACKS UNITS....good lord
Just like how the Widow Mine parade is defended by Zerglings, which are HATCHERY units... right?
Seriously, why doesn't the inclusion of Widow Mines (T2) and Medivacs (T3), along with Level 3 Upgrades, make Biomine + Medivac a tier-3 army? It really should be considered as such.
Besides, what other options does Terran have for tier 3?
Battlecruisers/Skyterran? Nope.
Thors? Err nope - Neural Parasite and Feedback!
Maxed-out Mech army? Has potential... but it's shut down by Brood Lords and anything Protoss.
I'm pretty sure that Biomine/Medivac IS the only tier-3 that Terrans have.
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this post inspired me to go for 3/3 even after losing 50+ scvs to muta ling bane in a ladder game, i almost came back and ended up losing barely !
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On August 14 2013 14:14 Entirety wrote:
Seriously, why doesn't the inclusion of Widow Mines (T2) and Medivacs (T3), along with Level 3 Upgrades, make Biomine + Medivac a tier-3 army? It really should be considered as such.
Besides, what other options does Terran have for tier 3?
Battlecruisers/Skyterran? Nope.
Thors? Err nope - Neural Parasite and Feedback!
Maxed-out Mech army? Has potential... but it's shut down by Brood Lords and anything Protoss.
I'm pretty sure that Biomine/Medivac IS the only tier-3 that Terrans have.
Actually, if you really wanted to shoehorn T into tiers, the requirements of medivacs class them as more of a T2 unit (compare with hydra, muta or infestor techtree).
The fact that it can be mistaken for T3 because of how good it gets sort of showcases the issue. I've always had the vague impression that bio (or, actually, the marine) was left way too strong, and as a result everything else from T has to suck to make up for it.
It might be a cool idea to design a race around needing a core army of cheap, almost zero-cost (mineral) units and then adding costly (gas) support as you see fit, but in order to do that you need diminishing returns on the mineral troops. That's pretty much not true at the moment.
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The biggest problem of widow mines, I think, is that zerg cant counter-attack after managing to do a great engagement because he has to clean all the widow mines first.
I hope the overseer-buff will help to fix this problem of the widow mines.
Maybe blizzard could also think about giving widow mines some ammo. Like, the widow mine can hit 2/3 times. But then, terran has to click on "reload ammo" for the widow mines to reload 1 ammo.
This way, terran cant forgot widow mines onto the creep. It takes APM for zerg to clean the widow mines, and it takes APM for terran to reload it. Yeah, balanced.
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On August 14 2013 15:31 Meff wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 14:14 Entirety wrote:
Seriously, why doesn't the inclusion of Widow Mines (T2) and Medivacs (T3), along with Level 3 Upgrades, make Biomine + Medivac a tier-3 army? It really should be considered as such.
Besides, what other options does Terran have for tier 3?
Battlecruisers/Skyterran? Nope.
Thors? Err nope - Neural Parasite and Feedback!
Maxed-out Mech army? Has potential... but it's shut down by Brood Lords and anything Protoss.
I'm pretty sure that Biomine/Medivac IS the only tier-3 that Terrans have. Actually, if you really wanted to shoehorn T into tiers, the requirements of medivacs class them as more of a T2 unit (compare with hydra, muta or infestor techtree). The fact that it can be mistaken for T3 because of how good it gets sort of showcases the issue. I've always had the vague impression that bio (or, actually, the marine) was left way too strong, and as a result everything else from T has to suck to make up for it. It might be a cool idea to design a race around needing a core army of cheap, almost zero-cost (mineral) units and then adding costly (gas) support as you see fit, but in order to do that you need diminishing returns on the mineral troops. That's pretty much not true at the moment.
Medivacs are T3 because Terran tech goes Barracks, Factory, and Starport. In fact, Terran armies are extremely similar to Protoss armies. They are made up of a T1 core (Marine/Marauder vs. Zealot/Stalker/Sentry) and are supported by gas-heavy T3 (Medivacs vs. Colossi/Templar). You could argue that the core is also basically T2 (because Widow Mines are T2 and Charge/Blink are T2).
Anyway, tiers may seem like nitpicking or mere disagreements over terminology. The real point I'm trying to make is that Biomine/Medivac is a perfectly valid lategame army, not some tier 1 rubbish. That's why Terrans get Combat Shield, Stim, and pump out those +3/+3 upgrades.
Also, note that a pack of Zerglings with Adrenal Glands will easily clean up a similarly sized pack of Marines. Also note that Zealots with Charge absolutely maul Marine/Marauder. In fact, Marines are the weakest basic unit at tier-3 without support.
To be honest, I believe the whole reason people believe this "tier 1" idea got started is because Medivacs don't attack. If Medivacs were attacking units like Banshees or Colossi, people would be fine calling it a tier 3 army. Instead, the Medivac's role is purely support, so people start believing that the core of the army is tier 1 and thus the entire army is tier 1... when in reality, Marines suck hard without the support of tier 3 Medivacs and tier 2 Widow Mines and even tier 2 Ghosts and tier 3 Vikings.
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Also, note that a pack of Zerglings with Adrenal Glands will easily clean up a similarly sized pack of Marines. Also note that Zealots with Charge absolutely maul Marine/Marauder. In fact, Marines are the weakest basic unit at tier-3 without support.
Are you sure about this? Zerglings still have really low hit points and are melee. Marines, while not particularly tanky, are ranged, can shoot air and ground and have some really nice dps and they CAN be healed.
Maybe in small numbers a pack of 16 cracklings beat 3-3 marines (not even sure of this) but if we're talking about 50 Marines vs 100 lings then pathing becomes such a bad issue that I'm sure that marines win quite handily, especially if the terrain isn't wide open.
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I'm right?
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On August 14 2013 16:12 Insoleet wrote:
The biggest problem of widow mines, I think, is that zerg cant counter-attack after managing to do a great engagement because he has to clean all the widow mines first.
I hope the overseer-buff will help to fix this problem of the widow mines.
Maybe blizzard could also think about giving widow mines some ammo. Like, the widow mine can hit 2/3 times. But then, terran has to click on "reload ammo" for the widow mines to reload 1 ammo.
This way, terran cant forgot widow mines onto the creep. It takes APM for zerg to clean the widow mines, and it takes APM for terran to reload it. Yeah, balanced.
Great idea, just make it like loading scarabs. 15 minerals per reload and a little more apm from the terran. Widow mine would still be insanely powerful and used just as much, but require more attention and a little bit of resources.
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On August 14 2013 16:42 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +
Also, note that a pack of Zerglings with Adrenal Glands will easily clean up a similarly sized pack of Marines. Also note that Zealots with Charge absolutely maul Marine/Marauder. In fact, Marines are the weakest basic unit at tier-3 without support.
Are you sure about this? Zerglings still have really low hit points and are melee. Marines, while not particularly tanky, are ranged, can shoot air and ground and have some really nice dps and they CAN be healed. Maybe in small numbers a pack of 16 cracklings beat 3-3 marines (not even sure of this) but if we're talking about 50 Marines vs 100 lings then pathing becomes such a bad issue that I'm sure that marines win quite handily, especially if the terrain isn't wide open. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I'm right?
Yes I was referring to moderately-sized packs. Healing is irrelevant - Zerglings heal more because we're totally ignoring Medivacs here. I think people overestimate the power of 3-3 Marines because they always have Medivacs overhead. Without those Medivacs, Marines aren't ridiculous anymore, and that was my point: Marines as T1 units don't work, just like pure Zergling/Zealot T1 armies do not work. Medivacs are absolutely crucial.
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On August 12 2013 15:57 FakeDouble wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 15:43 Msr wrote:
is there a reason protoss and terran do not need another tech path for +3? Zerg has to add on two buildings.. one of them being completely useless Different races are different. Unless you want all races to be the same... P and T pay extra between +1s and +2s (twilight and armory). Z pays 'extra' between +2 and +3 (infestor pit, no you can't make an argument for spawning pool). Armory enables thors and hellbats which T may never get in biomine style, so it is 'useless' in a similar way infestor pit is 'useless' if you don't plan to make infestors or swarmhosts.
Not entirely correct,
(ignoring builds and most other factors on overlapping time)
Zs require:
+1 (160s) (evo (35s)
+2 (190s) (lair (80s) ) (lair requires spawning pool (65s))
+3 (220s) (infestation (50s) -> hive (100s) )
35 + 160 (lair built within this time) + 190 (infestation + hive within) + 220 = 605
costs:
+1 -> 2*125/0 (evo+drone) + 100/100 (weapon) + 150/150 (armor) = 500/250
+2 -> 150/100 (lair) + 200/0 (pool) + 150/150 (weapon) + 225/225 (armor) = 725/475
+3 -> 100/100 (inf) + 200/150 (hive) + 200/200 (weapon) + 300/300 (armor) = 800/750
total = 2025/1475
Ts require:
+1 (160s) (bay 35s)
+2 (190s) (factory (60s) -> armory (65s) ) (factory requires barracks (65s) which requires depot (30s) )
+3 (220s) (nothing more)
35 + 160 (factory + armory within this time) + 190 + 220 = 605 (if not ignoring depot + barracks) +30 = 635
costs:
+1 -> 2*125/0 (bays) + 100/100 (weapon) + 100/100 (armor) = 450/200
+2 -> 150/0 (barracks) + 150/100 (factory) + 150/100 (Armory) + 175/175 (weapon) + 175/175 (armor) = 800/550 + 100/0 (depot) = 900/550
+3 -> 250/250 (weapon) + 250/250 (armor) = 500/500
total = 1750/1250 + 100/0 (depot) = 1850/1250
correct me on that if i'm wrong, tried to search what i could (mostly on liquipedia).
A lot of costs can be removed due to necessity of those buildings regardless, but assuming a strong economy for everything streamlined think that would be roughly it. On Terran side we can remove the cost from barracks (since orbital requires that) and on zergs we could remove the cost of spawning pools since zergs need that for queens (macro/eco mechanics that assuming would always be around).
This would still make zergs upgrades cost more, if you take into account timings affected by resources then it skew things since it takes roughly 60s for 100 gas from 1 geyser. Zerg's first upgrades are costier which would delay when they could potentially start it but 2nd and 3rd from Terran is costier which could delay theirs slightly. But that all depends on strategies employed (especially gas wise spendings) so it's very hard for me to add any relevant thing to that.
Bottomline, they're the same on time needed if pure streamlined, zergs are costier overall and have requirements for every step which might narrow options strategy wise but i'm not going there :p. They behave differently throughout the game, units have different costs that reflect the race's nature, etc etc... Becomes to hard to reach anything with so many variants as the OP mentioned somewhere as well, at least when it comes to balance.
Resource management and strategy/building streamlining seem to be the limiting factor, not the time or number of buildings required since most seem to be "possible" to overlap with buildings, just nasty to have the eco for that with all possible things going around.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 14 2013 14:14 Entirety wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 11:14 leova wrote:TLDR for the last 6 pages: 3/3 MMM has a stupid-high damage output, stupid-low cost, stupid-high speed, and stupid-high healing ability Terran players love it, so they all hate on this thread. Zerg players die to it too often, so they cry on this thread. Toss players, like myself, die to it fairly often as well, so they simply hate Terran for being OP in far too many aspects of the game Zerg Hatchery tech blows, Lair tech is far too easily countered, and Hive tech is absolutely NECESSARY to defeat the Terran's BARRACKS UNITS....good lord Just like how the Widow Mine parade is defended by Zerglings, which are HATCHERY units... right? Seriously, why doesn't the inclusion of Widow Mines (T2) and Medivacs (T3), along with Level 3 Upgrades, make Biomine + Medivac a tier-3 army? It really should be considered as such. Besides, what other options does Terran have for tier 3? Battlecruisers/Skyterran? Nope. Thors? Err nope - Neural Parasite and Feedback! Maxed-out Mech army? Has potential... but it's shut down by Brood Lords and anything Protoss. I'm pretty sure that Biomine/Medivac IS the only tier-3 that Terrans have.
no way MMMM is T3. Medivacs are tier 2 at most. Ravens/Banshees/Thors/BCs are only terran units that get any close to definition of Tier 3.
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On August 14 2013 11:14 leova wrote:TLDR for the last 6 pages: 3/3 MMM has a stupid-high damage output, stupid-low cost, stupid-high speed, and stupid-high healing ability Terran players love it, so they all hate on this thread. Zerg players die to it too often, so they cry on this thread. Toss players, like myself, die to it fairly often as well, so they simply hate Terran for being OP in far too many aspects of the game Zerg Hatchery tech blows, Lair tech is far too easily countered, and Hive tech is absolutely NECESSARY to defeat the Terran's BARRACKS UNITS....good lord
Think you're needing a lot of practice then if you're losing to this as protoss
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On August 14 2013 17:32 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 14:14 Entirety wrote:On August 14 2013 11:14 leova wrote:TLDR for the last 6 pages: 3/3 MMM has a stupid-high damage output, stupid-low cost, stupid-high speed, and stupid-high healing ability Terran players love it, so they all hate on this thread. Zerg players die to it too often, so they cry on this thread. Toss players, like myself, die to it fairly often as well, so they simply hate Terran for being OP in far too many aspects of the game Zerg Hatchery tech blows, Lair tech is far too easily countered, and Hive tech is absolutely NECESSARY to defeat the Terran's BARRACKS UNITS....good lord Just like how the Widow Mine parade is defended by Zerglings, which are HATCHERY units... right? Seriously, why doesn't the inclusion of Widow Mines (T2) and Medivacs (T3), along with Level 3 Upgrades, make Biomine + Medivac a tier-3 army? It really should be considered as such. Besides, what other options does Terran have for tier 3? Battlecruisers/Skyterran? Nope. Thors? Err nope - Neural Parasite and Feedback! Maxed-out Mech army? Has potential... but it's shut down by Brood Lords and anything Protoss. I'm pretty sure that Biomine/Medivac IS the only tier-3 that Terrans have. no way MMMM is T3. Medivacs are tier 2 at most. Ravens/Banshees/Thors/BCs are only terran units that get any close to definition of Tier 3.
And we can see how great those are if they are the main army...
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On August 14 2013 16:34 Entirety wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 15:31 Meff wrote:On August 14 2013 14:14 Entirety wrote:
Seriously, why doesn't the inclusion of Widow Mines (T2) and Medivacs (T3), along with Level 3 Upgrades, make Biomine + Medivac a tier-3 army? It really should be considered as such.
Besides, what other options does Terran have for tier 3?
Battlecruisers/Skyterran? Nope.
Thors? Err nope - Neural Parasite and Feedback!
Maxed-out Mech army? Has potential... but it's shut down by Brood Lords and anything Protoss.
I'm pretty sure that Biomine/Medivac IS the only tier-3 that Terrans have. Actually, if you really wanted to shoehorn T into tiers, the requirements of medivacs class them as more of a T2 unit (compare with hydra, muta or infestor techtree). The fact that it can be mistaken for T3 because of how good it gets sort of showcases the issue. I've always had the vague impression that bio (or, actually, the marine) was left way too strong, and as a result everything else from T has to suck to make up for it. It might be a cool idea to design a race around needing a core army of cheap, almost zero-cost (mineral) units and then adding costly (gas) support as you see fit, but in order to do that you need diminishing returns on the mineral troops. That's pretty much not true at the moment. Medivacs are T3 because Terran tech goes Barracks, Factory, and Starport. In fact, Terran armies are extremely similar to Protoss armies. They are made up of a T1 core (Marine/Marauder vs. Zealot/Stalker/Sentry) and are supported by gas-heavy T3 (Medivacs vs. Colossi/Templar). You could argue that the core is also basically T2 (because Widow Mines are T2 and Charge/Blink are T2). Anyway, tiers may seem like nitpicking or mere disagreements over terminology. The real point I'm trying to make is that Biomine/Medivac is a perfectly valid lategame army, not some tier 1 rubbish. That's why Terrans get Combat Shield, Stim, and pump out those +3/+3 upgrades. Also, note that a pack of Zerglings with Adrenal Glands will easily clean up a similarly sized pack of Marines. Also note that Zealots with Charge absolutely maul Marine/Marauder. In fact, Marines are the weakest basic unit at tier-3 without support. To be honest, I believe the whole reason people believe this "tier 1" idea got started is because Medivacs don't attack. If Medivacs were attacking units like Banshees or Colossi, people would be fine calling it a tier 3 army. Instead, the Medivac's role is purely support, so people start believing that the core of the army is tier 1 and thus the entire army is tier 1... when in reality, Marines suck hard without the support of tier 3 Medivacs and tier 2 Widow Mines and even tier 2 Ghosts and tier 3 Vikings.
so... Pool -> Lair -> Spire -> Infestationpit -> Hive -> Greater spire
Broodlords confirmed tier 6 units
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United Kingdom20287 Posts
On August 14 2013 16:42 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +
Also, note that a pack of Zerglings with Adrenal Glands will easily clean up a similarly sized pack of Marines. Also note that Zealots with Charge absolutely maul Marine/Marauder. In fact, Marines are the weakest basic unit at tier-3 without support.
Are you sure about this? Zerglings still have really low hit points and are melee. Marines, while not particularly tanky, are ranged, can shoot air and ground and have some really nice dps and they CAN be healed. Maybe in small numbers a pack of 16 cracklings beat 3-3 marines (not even sure of this) but if we're talking about 50 Marines vs 100 lings then pathing becomes such a bad issue that I'm sure that marines win quite handily, especially if the terrain isn't wide open. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I'm right?
Lings win in low numbers and gradually lose harder and harder as both army sizes increase and terrain etc gets in the way.
Tested that for both of you: Open ground, equal upgrades, stim+combat shield vs speed+crack
20 marines vs 40 lings: 7 lings left (20 marines lost for 33 killed)
50 marines vs 100 lings: 35 marines left (15 lost for 100 killed)
100 marines vs 200 lings: 75 marines left (25 lost for 200 killed)
By this point, because i just put the marines in a ball instead of arranging them optimally, the scaling is worse. I said at the start i'd just stim when the last marine fired, but it didn't even start attacking for a while with only attack moved lings, so the stim was late, they could have traded better than 4:1, even in completely open ground. You get point though, it's pretty crazy scaling here
Micro is advantageous for the marines in smaller numbers and stim+shields come before adrenal glands, and medivacs come in, so marines are great vs unsupported lings
To be honest, I believe the whole reason people believe this "tier 1" idea got started is because Medivacs don't attack. If Medivacs were attacking units like Banshees or Colossi, people would be fine calling it a tier 3 army
I don't think you can call factory tier 2, it's not like a mutalisk or infestor, nor an immortal, blink/charge tech etc. Hellions and widow mines are easy to make, and Banshees frequently come for early harass, or to look back at WOL TvP, in 1-1-1's. Factory-starport is too accessible to be called tier 3
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On August 13 2013 02:58 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 02:49 Incognoto wrote:
Problem with burrowed Banelings is that they have bad LOS and they need to be detonated manually by the Zerg (unlike Widow Mines). It requires so much APM at a high level to have your banelings detonate at just the right time that it's almost gimmicky and can't be used reliably. Those are at least my impressions, as I've seen top zergs fail to detonate their banelings SO many times when the results could have been awesome. Don't confuse APM and attention. Detonating 2 Banelings = one action, it doesn't require "so much apm," but it does require to watch at the right time. Which, indeed, is difficult when you're busy somewhere else.
The real issue with Baneling bombs is that Zergs have gotten extremely diligent with their creep spread, and Terrans have gotten extremely diligent with preventing full map-coverage.
What does this mean? Bombs planted on creep will always be scanned because they're on creep (and creep is constantly scanned to get cleared), and Bombs planted ahead of creep will either be covered in creep soon, or are so far forward that your opponent probably spots it before they even burrow.
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The real question is whether the Banelings connect or whether the Widow Mines get good hits. Almost everything else is superfluous.
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On August 14 2013 17:16 SeeDs.pt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 15:57 FakeDouble wrote:On August 12 2013 15:43 Msr wrote:
is there a reason protoss and terran do not need another tech path for +3? Zerg has to add on two buildings.. one of them being completely useless Different races are different. Unless you want all races to be the same... P and T pay extra between +1s and +2s (twilight and armory). Z pays 'extra' between +2 and +3 (infestor pit, no you can't make an argument for spawning pool). Armory enables thors and hellbats which T may never get in biomine style, so it is 'useless' in a similar way infestor pit is 'useless' if you don't plan to make infestors or swarmhosts. [snipped]
If you include the cost of a drone, then you need to include mining time lost for Terran.
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EPT
