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On August 12 2013 14:47 beg wrote:
hm, i never heard casters specifically talking about 3/3 vs lair, but rather "3/3 vs ling bling muta". i always wondered why 3/3 terran would be so special against 3/3 zerg. it makes no sense to me at all.
it is not. 3-3 upgrades on bio vs ling neutralize each other. marauder get 3 extra dmg on ultralisks in comparison to 0-0, but ultralisks get massively more dmg so here the favor lies even on the zerg side. you kill off air units and buildings really fast, but same goes for zerglings against buildings (esp. with adrenalin glances).
overall you could say, 3-3 vs 3-3 favors zerg a bit more, because of ultralisks (allways in comparison to 0-0). that terran units become overwhelmingly strong, when everyone has 3-3 is a fairy tale, nothing else.
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On August 12 2013 23:57 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 14:47 beg wrote:
hm, i never heard casters specifically talking about 3/3 vs lair, but rather "3/3 vs ling bling muta". i always wondered why 3/3 terran would be so special against 3/3 zerg. it makes no sense to me at all. it is not. 3-3 upgrades on bio vs ling neutralize each other. marauder get 3 extra dmg on ultralisks in comparison to 0-0, but ultralisks get massively more dmg so here the favor lies even on the zerg side. you kill off air units and buildings really fast, but same goes for zerglings against buildings (esp. with adrenalin glances). overall you could say, 3-3 vs 3-3 favors zerg a bit more, because of ultralisks (allways in comparison to 0-0). that terran units become overwhelmingly strong, when everyone has 3-3 is a fairy tale, nothing else.
As I've said before, you can be 3-3 vs 3-3 in TvZ, Ultras, Lings and Blings can't fight efficiently against Terran bio if Infestors aren't there to lock them down and do Aoe damage.
Ultra/Infestor does really well though. It's up to Terran after that to drop well.
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On August 12 2013 23:39 Dingodile wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 22:58 MstrJinbo wrote:On August 12 2013 22:53 Dingodile wrote:
I think the main reason in zerg's huge problem from switch lair to hive is that terran can faster maxing (and remaxing) than zerg, therefore not enough minerals and gas left für Hive and Hive buildungs.
Terran is the macro race in Hots TvZ. You build 10 ultralisks that's 60 supply in a min. Terran can't build faster than that. Interesting, tell me how this work if you dont have hive. Apparently only Ultralisk can max and remax faster than t. I was talking about max and remaxing before Hive tech.
Reread what you wrote. You say nothing about not having a hive. When transitioning from lair to hive 10 ultralisks isnt uncommon. I think what you are trying to say is that Lair zergs don't generally have money to get hive and upgrades and ultra den and still have money for hive units all while replenishing units lost in engagements. . That's not always true, see scarlett vs alive game 1.
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Basic facts:
3-3 bio vs 2-2 zerg is extremely powerful. You can try to say that "Extremely" is subjective, but compared to other units, for the cost, for the supply and for the space take on the field, I'm pretty sure it's straight fact, which is what I'm getting at.
+3 weapons for bio means ridiculously high damage output in an area, which is especially worth considering when trying to destroy buildings (namely bases), such as from drops or small troupes charging to snipe a base.
Similar zerg forces will likely involve more mêlée units and possibly "short-range" (4), roaches, which also take up more space, meaning less units fit into the same area, so the damage output even with +3 is lower, especially once stim is taken into account.
It does seem like terran is getting ahead in upgrades a lot more often these days.
Are Zergs these days generally staying on mutalisks for longer before getting a hive? Is it something to do with mines being introduced and somehow helping terran to afford the upgrades sooner?
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On August 13 2013 00:08 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:
Basic facts:
3-3 bio vs 2-2 zerg is extremely powerful. You can try to say that "Extremely" is subjective, but compared to other units, for the cost, for the supply and for the space take on the field, I'm pretty sure it's straight fact, which is what I'm getting at.
+3 weapons for bio means ridiculously high damage output in an area, which is especially worth considering when trying to destroy buildings (namely bases), such as from drops or small troupes charging to snipe a base.
Similar zerg forces will likely involve more mêlée units and possibly "short-range" (4), roaches, which also take up more space, meaning less units fit into the same area, so the damage output even with +3 is lower, especially once stim is taken into account.
It does seem like terran is getting ahead in upgrades a lot more often these days.
Are Zergs these days generally staying on mutalisks for longer before getting a hive? Is it something to do with mines being introduced and somehow helping terran to afford the upgrades sooner?
I think it has to do with the fact that muta/ling/bling playstyle usually means alot of action and constant production of large amount of banelings. Spending gas on an infestation pit and then on hive at that stage of the game when the terran is in your face is simply not prioritized by the zerg. If its because of the resources or not im not sure but they get stuck on 2-2 for so long. I would like to see something done about this tbh. The second your 2-2 finishes as terran you can start 3-3 while the zerg has to have made an infestation pit (which is not so fun when you are spending all your gas on muta/bling and cant afford infestors) and teched to hive.
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TLDR: As a zerg, NEVER EVER settle with Lair tech, even if you have a huge lead! 3/3 marines are very powerful in the middle-late game. Get your hive tech to reach to the late game phase! So, no more balance whining about marines please!
i always thought about this when i watch dongraegu he is sooooooo good with muta ling bane but stays on lair foooooorevvvverrrrr i mean a really long time and i never understood why he couldnt just get hive and get three three for lings and muta but im ok with zerg waiting and staying on lair tech it helps me win lol but really i think if zerg can some how get there 3-3 faster then i dont think marines would be to hard to deal with
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On August 12 2013 22:58 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 22:53 Dingodile wrote:
I think the main reason in zerg's huge problem from switch lair to hive is that terran can faster maxing (and remaxing) than zerg, therefore not enough minerals and gas left für Hive and Hive buildungs.
Terran is the macro race in Hots TvZ. You build 10 ultralisks that's 60 supply in a min. Terran can't build faster than that.
10 Ultras is 60supply in 55seconds buildtime. Terran does remax just as fast.
Now how much production would a Terran need to produce 60supply of 4M in ~1min?
techlab barracks produces 4supply/min in marauders
reactor barracks produces 4.8supply/min in marines
reactor starport produces 5.6supply/min in medivacs
reactor factory produces 6supply/min in widow mines
So a regular lategame setup with ~10barracks, 2factories (one with techlab) and 1starport produces 50-60supply per minute.
So a standard Terran setup in the current metagame does actually produce supply just as fast as that (though supply isn't everything, 10ultras are quite higher quality than that 4M army, though also quite more expensive and you can't produce 10 of them every minute, unlike the Terran)!
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On August 13 2013 00:16 starslayer wrote:
TLDR: As a zerg, NEVER EVER settle with Lair tech, even if you have a huge lead! 3/3 marines are very powerful in the middle-late game. Get your hive tech to reach to the late game phase! So, no more balance whining about marines please!
i always thought about this when i watch dongraegu he is sooooooo good with muta ling bane but stays on lair foooooorevvvverrrrr i mean a really long time and i never understood why he couldnt just get hive and get three three for lings and muta but im ok with zerg waiting and staying on lair tech it helps me win lol but really i think if zerg can some how get there 3-3 faster then i dont think marines would be to hard to deal with
While Terran produces units, attacks, and harasses, he does not need to spend nearly as much gas as Zerg does to react to this.
With the spare gas, Terran goes for 3/3 upgrades which are much more accessible. It's also worth pointing out that no other unit upgrades are relevant with Terran, just the marines.
So if both get 2/2 ground evenly, Terran is much more likely to have the 500 gas required to get 3/3. Zerg needs 750 to reach 3/3 on melee, and also needs to upgrade Mutalisks at the same time. However, he's starved on gas from producting and losing mutas + banes to marines.
All the OP seems to say is "2/2 vs 2/2 is the same as 3/3 vs 3/3. Therefore all Zerg needs to do is get 3/3 at the same time. I just solved Zerg's biggest problem in the TvZ matchup"
It ignores all the factors that create the difficulty. It's like answering a 'why did i lose to this push' with 'you should have had more marauders'
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On August 13 2013 00:08 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:
It does seem like terran is getting ahead in upgrades a lot more often these days.
Are Zergs these days generally staying on mutalisks for longer before getting a hive? Is it something to do with mines being introduced and somehow helping terran to afford the upgrades sooner?
Zergs, in many many games, cannot afford to spend gas for hive and 3/3 + adrenals because they have to fight against an endless stream of MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM. Mines make the fight inefficient for zergs (you can say whatever about this, it won't change a fact) so they must have a more costy army to fight and they'll have to subtract those resources from teching. Zergs wins by either all-inning (god knows how low the win rate would be without roach ling bane and stuff like that) or during the small window of 2-2 vs 2-2... most of the times, that is.
This could be fixed with a buff to mutas against marines/mines in specific. They cost a lot of gas and they are great units (the buff must not make them any better vs P, they are already beasts). The problem is that they are very very bad vs MMMM and very very good vs drops (the only Z thing that does well vs them) so you have to make them and, therefore, you'll have a weaker army than what you could have without worrying of drops. Roach hydra doesn't fight badly vs bio at all (they actually stomp bio with infestor viper) but you're very exposed to drops.
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On August 13 2013 00:25 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 22:58 MstrJinbo wrote:On August 12 2013 22:53 Dingodile wrote:
I think the main reason in zerg's huge problem from switch lair to hive is that terran can faster maxing (and remaxing) than zerg, therefore not enough minerals and gas left für Hive and Hive buildungs.
Terran is the macro race in Hots TvZ. You build 10 ultralisks that's 60 supply in a min. Terran can't build faster than that. 10 Ultras is 60supply in 55seconds buildtime. Terran does remax just as fast. Now how much production would a Terran need to produce 60supply of 4M in ~1min? techlab barracks produces 4supply/min in marauders reactor barracks produces 4.8supply/min in marines reactor starport produces 5.6supply/min in medivacs reactor factory produces 6supply/min in widow mines So a regular lategame setup with ~10barracks, 2factories (one with techlab) and 1starport produces 50-60supply per minute. So a standard Terran setup in the current metagame does actually produce supply just as fast as that (though supply isn't everything, 10ultras are quite higher quality than that 4M army, though also quite more expensive and you can't produce 10 of them every minute, unlike the Terran)!
Alright you win.
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i think zerg should use burrowed banelings way more. I dont talk about 2 banelings, more like 3-4 packs of 2 banelings in the common attack paths. i really think that could be the answer to this style.
jaedong kinda tried it, but i think that wasnt enough. i mean terran has to scan , they lose mules this way and if zergs would get better with spreading the mines etc, they maybe have to go raven what would change the matchup quite hard i guess.
but maybe thats only my theory^^
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On August 13 2013 00:16 starslayer wrote:
TLDR: As a zerg, NEVER EVER settle with Lair tech, even if you have a huge lead! 3/3 marines are very powerful in the middle-late game. Get your hive tech to reach to the late game phase! So, no more balance whining about marines please!
Learned that in WoL pre-infestor era :D going as 7 base zerg against 2 base terran with 100 supply lead for me. Apparently 2/2 ling bane muta swarm can be obliterated in seconds by small army of marines especially off creep 
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On August 13 2013 00:35 The_Red_Viper wrote:
i think zerg should use burrowed banelings way more. I dont talk about 2 banelings, more like 3-4 packs of 2 banelings in the common attack paths. i really think that could be the answer to this style.
jaedong kinda tried it, but i think that wasnt enough. i mean terran has to scan , they lose mules this way and if zergs would get better with spreading the mines etc, they maybe have to go raven what would change the matchup quite hard i guess.
but maybe thats only my theory^^
In game 3 JD did use baneling mines quite well and he killed 50 scvs with constant runbys but somehow polt still had scans available and could afford units non stop. I thought JD played a very good game and a very fun but hard style, just wish he would have been rewarded a bit more for it.
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On August 13 2013 00:43 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 00:35 The_Red_Viper wrote:
i think zerg should use burrowed banelings way more. I dont talk about 2 banelings, more like 3-4 packs of 2 banelings in the common attack paths. i really think that could be the answer to this style.
jaedong kinda tried it, but i think that wasnt enough. i mean terran has to scan , they lose mules this way and if zergs would get better with spreading the mines etc, they maybe have to go raven what would change the matchup quite hard i guess.
but maybe thats only my theory^^ In game 3 JD did use baneling mines quite well and he killed 50 scvs with constant runbys but somehow polt still had scans available and could afford units non stop. I thought JD played a very good game and a very fun but hard style, just wish he would have been rewarded a bit more for it.
He forgot about his burrowed banes quite a bit...
On August 12 2013 15:30 Zenbrez wrote:
Only Scarlett and Suppy (foreigners, oddly enough) regularly get a good hive timing vs terran, and try their best to get ultras and 3/3 out, Roro does a decent job at it too, but he has trouble holding a 4th on most maps. Zergs just about always have at least 100 gas floating, just drop an infestation pit! It's so common zergs start their 2/2 before the terran, but terran finish 3/3 before the zerg even has a fester pit down. You can give excuses, but you can't seriously tell me the zerg needed every single bit of gas throughout the entire game. If he spends 100 gas on a pit, instead of 1 mutalisk, he's not going to lose the game.
It takes a hell of a long time for zerg to get access to 3/3, don't wait til 2/2 is finished to start your fester pit.
This is so true. I don't understand why Zergs love to delay their Hive tech. Just the Cracklings themselves are an important upgrade to get.
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On August 13 2013 00:43 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 00:35 The_Red_Viper wrote:
i think zerg should use burrowed banelings way more. I dont talk about 2 banelings, more like 3-4 packs of 2 banelings in the common attack paths. i really think that could be the answer to this style.
jaedong kinda tried it, but i think that wasnt enough. i mean terran has to scan , they lose mules this way and if zergs would get better with spreading the mines etc, they maybe have to go raven what would change the matchup quite hard i guess.
but maybe thats only my theory^^ In game 3 JD did use baneling mines quite well and he killed 50 scvs with constant runbys but somehow polt still had scans available and could afford units non stop. I thought JD played a very good game and a very fun but hard style, just wish he would have been rewarded a bit more for it.
I think it wasnt enough landmines, iirc he used most of his banelings to kill workers, where simple lings would have done the same job.
dont know if it is doable, but 4 landmines at least with 2-3 banelings (how much is the best?) should be quite strong i would think.
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Lings can't take marines at the same numbers, what make the zergs survive are banelings, and them lings take the rest of the marines. But if 3-3 marines deal way to much DPS to banelings and lings, and survive longer, what gets even stronger when they are if medivacs. Dont know why people think lings can take out marines, they cant, the banelings ( who dont won a considerable boost if upgrades), they are the one who tanks. And who said "Marauders only do +3 damage to ultras using 3-3", plz a marauder gets +9 dmg in comparison to 0-0.
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On August 13 2013 00:55 Mocking wrote:
Lings can't take marines at the same numbers, what make the zergs survive are banelings, and them lings take the rest of the marines. But if 3-3 marines deal way to much DPS to banelings and lings, and survive longer, what gets even stronger when they are if medivacs. Dont know why people think lings can take out marines, they cant, the banelings ( who dont won a considerable boost if upgrades), they are the one who tanks. And who said "Marauders only do +3 damage to ultras using 3-3", plz a marauder gets +9 dmg in comparison to 0-0.
You should really read again the whole thing.
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On August 13 2013 00:27 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 00:16 starslayer wrote:
TLDR: As a zerg, NEVER EVER settle with Lair tech, even if you have a huge lead! 3/3 marines are very powerful in the middle-late game. Get your hive tech to reach to the late game phase! So, no more balance whining about marines please!
i always thought about this when i watch dongraegu he is sooooooo good with muta ling bane but stays on lair foooooorevvvverrrrr i mean a really long time and i never understood why he couldnt just get hive and get three three for lings and muta but im ok with zerg waiting and staying on lair tech it helps me win lol but really i think if zerg can some how get there 3-3 faster then i dont think marines would be to hard to deal with While Terran produces units, attacks, and harasses, he does not need to spend nearly as much gas as Zerg does to react to this. With the spare gas, Terran goes for 3/3 upgrades which are much more accessible. It's also worth pointing out that no other unit upgrades are relevant with Terran, just the marines. So if both get 2/2 ground evenly, Terran is much more likely to have the 500 gas required to get 3/3. Zerg needs 750 to reach 3/3 on melee, and also needs to upgrade Mutalisks at the same time. However, he's starved on gas from producting and losing mutas + banes to marines. All the OP seems to say is "2/2 vs 2/2 is the same as 3/3 vs 3/3. Therefore all Zerg needs to do is get 3/3 at the same time. I just solved Zerg's biggest problem in the TvZ matchup" It ignores all the factors that create the difficulty. It's like answering a 'why did i lose to this push' with 'you should have had more marauders'
Don't lose mutas? I've noticed that Scarlett's muta retention was amazing versus alive - allowing her to save gas for tech instead. With the new movespeed and regen buff, Zergs have no excuse to lose mutas except their own ability.
Also, please for the love of God split your units. Losing 20 lings to a banes means that 20 lings were clumped! It doesn't mean that widow-mines are OP. Yeah they are OP if you clump, but the same can be said for banelings and infestors and high templars. No shit sherlock if you clump you die hardcore to AoE damage.
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Problem with burrowed Banelings is that they have bad LOS and they need to be detonated manually by the Zerg (unlike Widow Mines). It requires so much APM at a high level to have your banelings detonate at just the right time that it's almost gimmicky and can't be used reliably. Those are at least my impressions, as I've seen top zergs fail to detonate their banelings SO many times when the results could have been awesome.
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On August 13 2013 01:07 Karpfen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 00:55 Mocking wrote:
Lings can't take marines at the same numbers, what make the zergs survive are banelings, and them lings take the rest of the marines. But if 3-3 marines deal way to much DPS to banelings and lings, and survive longer, what gets even stronger when they are if medivacs. Dont know why people think lings can take out marines, they cant, the banelings ( who dont won a considerable boost if upgrades), they are the one who tanks. And who said "Marauders only do +3 damage to ultras using 3-3", plz a marauder gets +9 dmg in comparison to 0-0. You should really read again the whole thing.
He should also learn the statistics of all races first, probably by starting with his own.
Marauders gain +2 vs armoured IN TOTAL per upgrade. It's +1 & +1 more vs Armoured per upgrade, so 13/26 (vs Armoured) at +3/+3.
26 is 6 more than 20.
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EPT
