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On August 09 2013 08:15 Cyrak wrote:
Real talk: SC2 has never come close to being as good as brood war and probably never will. Unless this is acknowledged then the lackluster SC2 reception in Korea will forever be an enigma.
It's funny that people keep bringing that up but even if SC2 changed over night it would never out grow LoL in Korea.
LoL already have the glory days of BW in its sight.
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On August 09 2013 08:18 dutchfriese wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 08:02 Quotidian wrote:On August 09 2013 07:57 dutchfriese wrote:On August 09 2013 07:47 GwSC wrote:On August 09 2013 07:43 dutchfriese wrote:On August 09 2013 07:25 Noocta wrote:On August 09 2013 07:22 Rhaegal wrote:
Is Dota 2 fun to watch/play?
I haven't tried it out, but I want something to fall back on just in case.
Wasn't a big fan of LoL at all. No denying, no penalty for death, huge mana pools for every champ, and free blink dagger at game start. You're asking that right when the Superbowl of dota is on air ? What are you waiting, just go watch it >< it's pretty boring to watch IMHO. The game is just stupid easy to play so it has that advantage over starcraft to attract new viewers. Unfortunately for starcraft, it's not exactly a game someone can just start playing. There are serious growing pains with it, despite the fact sc2 is infinitely easier than brood war. None of my RL friends play sc2 because there is too many things to do and it becomes chore to them vs a fun game. also dota 5.54 > *. I never got why people say this, SC2 isn't really hard at all to just pick up and quickly get to at least silver/gold league so that you have enough understanding to enjoy watching games. Even a lot of bronze games could probably get you to that point of understanding. it's not necessarily hard to learn, but undeniably hard for someone who has zero experience with RTS games previously. It was easy for me because i grew up playing brood war and wc3 religiously, but for someone with zero knowledge and zero mechanical skill, i'm not sure how you can say it wouldn't be hard for them to learn. dota isn't any easier for someone completely new to the genre either... and in pro games have a ton of dynamics you'll virtually never see in a casual pub game. Basically, anyone claiming SC2 is more difficult than Dota2 is clueless. my anecdotal evidence of the experiences of my real life friends says the opposite. I've had countless friends who took up hon/lol no problem, but they were never able to fully pick up starcraft. Sc2 is more difficult that dota 2, and it's origins is DIRECT evidence of it. how was dota get big? it got big because it was infinitely easier than wc3. Wc3 players had a much more enjoyable time playing dota vs wc3 because it was much, much simpler. Keep in mind without wc3 and blizzard and the old aeon of strife games that date back to brood war, it's entirely possible there is no such thing as lol/dota 2 today.
macro is hard and many people prefer a game where you only have to micro.
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What's shocking me the most, is that iNcontroL's speech comes from the heart's community.
Not from Blizzard.
I really think some peoples must get shaken / fired / kicked out of Blizzard.
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On August 09 2013 08:25 HorsemasterK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 08:18 dutchfriese wrote:On August 09 2013 08:02 Quotidian wrote:On August 09 2013 07:57 dutchfriese wrote:On August 09 2013 07:47 GwSC wrote:On August 09 2013 07:43 dutchfriese wrote:On August 09 2013 07:25 Noocta wrote:On August 09 2013 07:22 Rhaegal wrote:
Is Dota 2 fun to watch/play?
I haven't tried it out, but I want something to fall back on just in case.
Wasn't a big fan of LoL at all. No denying, no penalty for death, huge mana pools for every champ, and free blink dagger at game start. You're asking that right when the Superbowl of dota is on air ? What are you waiting, just go watch it >< it's pretty boring to watch IMHO. The game is just stupid easy to play so it has that advantage over starcraft to attract new viewers. Unfortunately for starcraft, it's not exactly a game someone can just start playing. There are serious growing pains with it, despite the fact sc2 is infinitely easier than brood war. None of my RL friends play sc2 because there is too many things to do and it becomes chore to them vs a fun game. also dota 5.54 > *. I never got why people say this, SC2 isn't really hard at all to just pick up and quickly get to at least silver/gold league so that you have enough understanding to enjoy watching games. Even a lot of bronze games could probably get you to that point of understanding. it's not necessarily hard to learn, but undeniably hard for someone who has zero experience with RTS games previously. It was easy for me because i grew up playing brood war and wc3 religiously, but for someone with zero knowledge and zero mechanical skill, i'm not sure how you can say it wouldn't be hard for them to learn. dota isn't any easier for someone completely new to the genre either... and in pro games have a ton of dynamics you'll virtually never see in a casual pub game. Basically, anyone claiming SC2 is more difficult than Dota2 is clueless. my anecdotal evidence of the experiences of my real life friends says the opposite. I've had countless friends who took up hon/lol no problem, but they were never able to fully pick up starcraft. Sc2 is more difficult that dota 2, and it's origins is DIRECT evidence of it. how was dota get big? it got big because it was infinitely easier than wc3. Wc3 players had a much more enjoyable time playing dota vs wc3 because it was much, much simpler. Keep in mind without wc3 and blizzard and the old aeon of strife games that date back to brood war, it's entirely possible there is no such thing as lol/dota 2 today. macro is hard and many people prefer a game where you only have to micro.
yes exactly, you're right. good blanket statement to sum it up.
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On August 09 2013 08:18 dutchfriese wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 08:02 Quotidian wrote:On August 09 2013 07:57 dutchfriese wrote:On August 09 2013 07:47 GwSC wrote:On August 09 2013 07:43 dutchfriese wrote:On August 09 2013 07:25 Noocta wrote:On August 09 2013 07:22 Rhaegal wrote:
Is Dota 2 fun to watch/play?
I haven't tried it out, but I want something to fall back on just in case.
Wasn't a big fan of LoL at all. No denying, no penalty for death, huge mana pools for every champ, and free blink dagger at game start. You're asking that right when the Superbowl of dota is on air ? What are you waiting, just go watch it >< it's pretty boring to watch IMHO. The game is just stupid easy to play so it has that advantage over starcraft to attract new viewers. Unfortunately for starcraft, it's not exactly a game someone can just start playing. There are serious growing pains with it, despite the fact sc2 is infinitely easier than brood war. None of my RL friends play sc2 because there is too many things to do and it becomes chore to them vs a fun game. also dota 5.54 > *. I never got why people say this, SC2 isn't really hard at all to just pick up and quickly get to at least silver/gold league so that you have enough understanding to enjoy watching games. Even a lot of bronze games could probably get you to that point of understanding. it's not necessarily hard to learn, but undeniably hard for someone who has zero experience with RTS games previously. It was easy for me because i grew up playing brood war and wc3 religiously, but for someone with zero knowledge and zero mechanical skill, i'm not sure how you can say it wouldn't be hard for them to learn. dota isn't any easier for someone completely new to the genre either... and in pro games have a ton of dynamics you'll virtually never see in a casual pub game. Basically, anyone claiming SC2 is more difficult than Dota2 is clueless. my anecdotal evidence of the experiences of my real life friends says the opposite. I've had countless friends who took up hon/lol no problem, but they were never able to fully pick up starcraft. Sc2 is more difficult that dota 2, and it's origins is DIRECT evidence of it. how was dota get big? it got big because it was infinitely easier than wc3. Wc3 players had a much more enjoyable time playing dota vs wc3 because it was much, much simpler.
and I remember playing HON ages ago and being so put off by how unintuitive it was, that I promptly uninstalled it. While on the other hand, I immediately had fun with SC2 as soon as I was let into the beta - with very little previous experience with the genre. Sorry if I'm not impressed by your anecdotal evidence.
Keep in mind without wc3 and blizzard and the old aeon of strife games that date back to brood war, it's entirely possible there is no such thing as lol/dota 2 today.
how is this relevant. It's already common knowledge that Blizzard didn't have the presence of mind to capitalize on Dota's popularity. Alleged Blizz insiders have even claimed that blizzard thought the mod was a "joke." There's no reason to give them any credit for Dota's success
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On August 09 2013 08:20 Tobblish wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 08:15 Cyrak wrote:
Real talk: SC2 has never come close to being as good as brood war and probably never will. Unless this is acknowledged then the lackluster SC2 reception in Korea will forever be an enigma. It's funny that people keep bringing that up but even if SC2 changed over night it would never out grow LoL in Korea. LoL already have the glory days of BW in its sight.
I never implied otherwise. Timing is crucial to game success and the window for SC2 to become huge in Korea has closed long ago if it ever existed at all. If Blizzard had done a coordinated SC2 release with KESPA from day 1 of WoL release and taken 100% of the ~2010 era Brood War momentum who knows what might have happened.
All we have at this point is counterfactuals and a disappointing reality.
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On August 09 2013 08:20 Tobblish wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 08:15 Cyrak wrote:
Real talk: SC2 has never come close to being as good as brood war and probably never will. Unless this is acknowledged then the lackluster SC2 reception in Korea will forever be an enigma. It's funny that people keep bringing that up but even if SC2 changed over night it would never out grow LoL in Korea. LoL already have the glory days of BW in its sight.
It should be interesting to ask yourself what it tells you of the people (the market) when a game like LoL might become the biggest game ever there. Whether SC2 is perfectly balanced isn't even relevant. Out of the three big games discussed in this thread the easiest / most simple / lowest skill cap one is by far the most popular one. Like Chobra said, contrary to popular belief, even in Korea, most players (customers), are super-casuals, and want easy games.
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On August 09 2013 08:27 xyzz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 08:20 Tobblish wrote:On August 09 2013 08:15 Cyrak wrote:
Real talk: SC2 has never come close to being as good as brood war and probably never will. Unless this is acknowledged then the lackluster SC2 reception in Korea will forever be an enigma. It's funny that people keep bringing that up but even if SC2 changed over night it would never out grow LoL in Korea. LoL already have the glory days of BW in its sight. It should be interesting to ask yourself what it tells you of the people (the market) when a game like LoL might become the biggest game ever there. Whether SC2 is perfectly balanced isn't even relevant. Out of the three big games discussed in this thread the easiest / most simple / lowest skill cap one is by far the most popular one.
They can't even make a decent client for God's sake.
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On August 09 2013 08:26 dutchfriese wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 08:25 HorsemasterK wrote:On August 09 2013 08:18 dutchfriese wrote:On August 09 2013 08:02 Quotidian wrote:On August 09 2013 07:57 dutchfriese wrote:On August 09 2013 07:47 GwSC wrote:On August 09 2013 07:43 dutchfriese wrote:On August 09 2013 07:25 Noocta wrote:On August 09 2013 07:22 Rhaegal wrote:
Is Dota 2 fun to watch/play?
I haven't tried it out, but I want something to fall back on just in case.
Wasn't a big fan of LoL at all. No denying, no penalty for death, huge mana pools for every champ, and free blink dagger at game start. You're asking that right when the Superbowl of dota is on air ? What are you waiting, just go watch it >< it's pretty boring to watch IMHO. The game is just stupid easy to play so it has that advantage over starcraft to attract new viewers. Unfortunately for starcraft, it's not exactly a game someone can just start playing. There are serious growing pains with it, despite the fact sc2 is infinitely easier than brood war. None of my RL friends play sc2 because there is too many things to do and it becomes chore to them vs a fun game. also dota 5.54 > *. I never got why people say this, SC2 isn't really hard at all to just pick up and quickly get to at least silver/gold league so that you have enough understanding to enjoy watching games. Even a lot of bronze games could probably get you to that point of understanding. it's not necessarily hard to learn, but undeniably hard for someone who has zero experience with RTS games previously. It was easy for me because i grew up playing brood war and wc3 religiously, but for someone with zero knowledge and zero mechanical skill, i'm not sure how you can say it wouldn't be hard for them to learn. dota isn't any easier for someone completely new to the genre either... and in pro games have a ton of dynamics you'll virtually never see in a casual pub game. Basically, anyone claiming SC2 is more difficult than Dota2 is clueless. my anecdotal evidence of the experiences of my real life friends says the opposite. I've had countless friends who took up hon/lol no problem, but they were never able to fully pick up starcraft. Sc2 is more difficult that dota 2, and it's origins is DIRECT evidence of it. how was dota get big? it got big because it was infinitely easier than wc3. Wc3 players had a much more enjoyable time playing dota vs wc3 because it was much, much simpler. Keep in mind without wc3 and blizzard and the old aeon of strife games that date back to brood war, it's entirely possible there is no such thing as lol/dota 2 today. macro is hard and many people prefer a game where you only have to micro. yes exactly, you're right. good blanket statement to sum it up.
glad we got that sorted out. now we can move on from this 'dota is as hard as starcraft' distraction.
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Keep in mind without wc3 and blizzard and the old aeon of strife games that date back to brood war, it's entirely possible there is no such thing as lol/dota 2 today.
huh? what does this have to do with the fact starcraft is harder game than dota 2? I'm not following.
how is this relevant. It's already common knowledge that Blizzard didn't have the presence of mind to capitalize on Dota's popularity. Alleged Blizz insiders have even claimed that blizzard thought the mod was a "joke." There's no reason to give them any credit for Dota's success
lol . I was telling you about how dota was created. I realize blizzard didn't create the game, but they created the map editor it was made on, and the reason it became so popular is because it was easier to play than it's cousin wc3.
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Americans do have a lot of good reasons to complain about Blizzard and WCS and such. Ok.
Now, the question that I have: why is always thet that brought all the drama, and the posts and the solutions and the "SC2 is dying/is not dying" kind of stuff?
I watch EU and KR scenes the most and what I see? Each tournament is best than its predecessor, better players, better storylines, nice people, the best casters and awesome crowds. Above all, everyone enjoying Starcraft.
Why is that so?
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On August 09 2013 08:28 HorsemasterK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 08:26 dutchfriese wrote:On August 09 2013 08:25 HorsemasterK wrote:On August 09 2013 08:18 dutchfriese wrote:On August 09 2013 08:02 Quotidian wrote:On August 09 2013 07:57 dutchfriese wrote:On August 09 2013 07:47 GwSC wrote:On August 09 2013 07:43 dutchfriese wrote:On August 09 2013 07:25 Noocta wrote:On August 09 2013 07:22 Rhaegal wrote:
Is Dota 2 fun to watch/play?
I haven't tried it out, but I want something to fall back on just in case.
Wasn't a big fan of LoL at all. No denying, no penalty for death, huge mana pools for every champ, and free blink dagger at game start. You're asking that right when the Superbowl of dota is on air ? What are you waiting, just go watch it >< it's pretty boring to watch IMHO. The game is just stupid easy to play so it has that advantage over starcraft to attract new viewers. Unfortunately for starcraft, it's not exactly a game someone can just start playing. There are serious growing pains with it, despite the fact sc2 is infinitely easier than brood war. None of my RL friends play sc2 because there is too many things to do and it becomes chore to them vs a fun game. also dota 5.54 > *. I never got why people say this, SC2 isn't really hard at all to just pick up and quickly get to at least silver/gold league so that you have enough understanding to enjoy watching games. Even a lot of bronze games could probably get you to that point of understanding. it's not necessarily hard to learn, but undeniably hard for someone who has zero experience with RTS games previously. It was easy for me because i grew up playing brood war and wc3 religiously, but for someone with zero knowledge and zero mechanical skill, i'm not sure how you can say it wouldn't be hard for them to learn. dota isn't any easier for someone completely new to the genre either... and in pro games have a ton of dynamics you'll virtually never see in a casual pub game. Basically, anyone claiming SC2 is more difficult than Dota2 is clueless. my anecdotal evidence of the experiences of my real life friends says the opposite. I've had countless friends who took up hon/lol no problem, but they were never able to fully pick up starcraft. Sc2 is more difficult that dota 2, and it's origins is DIRECT evidence of it. how was dota get big? it got big because it was infinitely easier than wc3. Wc3 players had a much more enjoyable time playing dota vs wc3 because it was much, much simpler. Keep in mind without wc3 and blizzard and the old aeon of strife games that date back to brood war, it's entirely possible there is no such thing as lol/dota 2 today. macro is hard and many people prefer a game where you only have to micro. yes exactly, you're right. good blanket statement to sum it up. glad we got that sorted out. now we can move on from this 'dota is as hard as starcraft' distraction.
i'm talking about from the perspective of a novice. Yes i realize at the highest levels both games are pretty interchangeable to be the best, but dota 2 is way easier to learn/play for a beginner.
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On August 09 2013 08:26 Cyrak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 08:20 Tobblish wrote:On August 09 2013 08:15 Cyrak wrote:
Real talk: SC2 has never come close to being as good as brood war and probably never will. Unless this is acknowledged then the lackluster SC2 reception in Korea will forever be an enigma. It's funny that people keep bringing that up but even if SC2 changed over night it would never out grow LoL in Korea. LoL already have the glory days of BW in its sight. I never implied otherwise. Timing is crucial to game success and the window for SC2 to become huge in Korea has closed long ago if it ever existed at all. If Blizzard had done a coordinated SC2 release with KESPA from day 1 of WoL release and taken 100% of the ~2010 era Brood War momentum who knows what might have happened. All we have at this point is counterfactuals and a disappointing reality.
Wait so why did you then bring up how BW is a much more superior game and Blizzard should "acknowledge" it to change the reception in Korea instead of saying what you just said.
Timing is important.
I know you really like taking shots at SC2 but then covering up lazy as that.. come on.
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On August 09 2013 08:31 dutchfriese wrote:
lol . I was telling you about how dota was created. I realize blizzard didn't create the game, but they created the map editor it was made on, and the reason it became so popular is because it was easier to play than it's cousin wc3.
again.. how is it relevant? The reason it became popular could just as easily be that it was more fun to play than WC3
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On August 09 2013 08:25 rEdEEmEd wrote:
What's shocking me the most, is that iNcontroL's speech comes from the heart's community.
Not from Blizzard.
I really think some peoples must get shaken / fired / kicked out of Blizzard.
Link to Incontrol's speech please?
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On August 09 2013 08:31 dutchfriese wrote: Show nested quote + Keep in mind without wc3 and blizzard and the old aeon of strife games that date back to brood war, it's entirely possible there is no such thing as lol/dota 2 today. huh? what does this have to do with the fact starcraft is harder game than dota 2? I'm not following. Show nested quote +how is this relevant. It's already common knowledge that Blizzard didn't have the presence of mind to capitalize on Dota's popularity. Alleged Blizz insiders have even claimed that blizzard thought the mod was a "joke." There's no reason to give them any credit for Dota's success lol . I was telling you about how dota was created. I realize blizzard didn't create the game, but they created the map editor it was made on, and the reason it became so popular is because it was easier to play than it's cousin wc3.
There are a lot of games that are easier to play than DOTA but are less popular. Did I just blow your mind? How is it so hard to understand that difficulty and game popularity have a tenuous correlation at best?
It is really pathetic how defensive people are about SC2 as if there has to be some sort of positive justification for playing a different game. "He plays DOTA instead of SC2... but he only does it because DOTA is easier and he isn't man enough to play SC2!"
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On August 09 2013 08:27 xyzz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 08:20 Tobblish wrote:On August 09 2013 08:15 Cyrak wrote:
Real talk: SC2 has never come close to being as good as brood war and probably never will. Unless this is acknowledged then the lackluster SC2 reception in Korea will forever be an enigma. It's funny that people keep bringing that up but even if SC2 changed over night it would never out grow LoL in Korea. LoL already have the glory days of BW in its sight. It should be interesting to ask yourself what it tells you of the people (the market) when a game like LoL might become the biggest game ever there. Whether SC2 is perfectly balanced isn't even relevant. Out of the three big games discussed in this thread the easiest / most simple / lowest skill cap one is by far the most popular one. Like Chobra said, contrary to popular belief, even in Korea, most players (customers), are super-casuals, and want easy games.
I thought this was clear and proven by now. Casual games rule the world these days. And alot of games are being dumbed down to attract more people towards it.
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Blizzard is the only one to blame. I have come to expect nothing but disappointment from them. Browder, Kim and others need replacing. They've dropped the ball with SC2 innumerable times now, with most of these failures being of inexcusable/mindboggling magnitude. It's a joke, really.
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On August 09 2013 08:33 Tobblish wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 08:26 Cyrak wrote:On August 09 2013 08:20 Tobblish wrote:On August 09 2013 08:15 Cyrak wrote:
Real talk: SC2 has never come close to being as good as brood war and probably never will. Unless this is acknowledged then the lackluster SC2 reception in Korea will forever be an enigma. It's funny that people keep bringing that up but even if SC2 changed over night it would never out grow LoL in Korea. LoL already have the glory days of BW in its sight. I never implied otherwise. Timing is crucial to game success and the window for SC2 to become huge in Korea has closed long ago if it ever existed at all. If Blizzard had done a coordinated SC2 release with KESPA from day 1 of WoL release and taken 100% of the ~2010 era Brood War momentum who knows what might have happened. All we have at this point is counterfactuals and a disappointing reality. Wait so why did you then bring up how BW is a much more superior game and Blizzard should "acknowledge" it to change the reception in Korea instead of saying what you just said. Timing is important. I know you really like taking shots at SC2 but then covering up lazy as that.. come on.
Giving you the benefit of the doubt here that english is not your first language. The party that needs to "acknowledge" anything is the SC2 community that seems apparently unable to understand why their game isn't enjoying BW's success (the aforementioned "enigma").
I said nothing about Blizzard or changing the current reception in Korea because if I was in Blizzard's shoes my assessment would be that it is pointless and a waste of time.
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On August 09 2013 08:36 Cyrak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 08:31 dutchfriese wrote: Keep in mind without wc3 and blizzard and the old aeon of strife games that date back to brood war, it's entirely possible there is no such thing as lol/dota 2 today. huh? what does this have to do with the fact starcraft is harder game than dota 2? I'm not following. how is this relevant. It's already common knowledge that Blizzard didn't have the presence of mind to capitalize on Dota's popularity. Alleged Blizz insiders have even claimed that blizzard thought the mod was a "joke." There's no reason to give them any credit for Dota's success lol . I was telling you about how dota was created. I realize blizzard didn't create the game, but they created the map editor it was made on, and the reason it became so popular is because it was easier to play than it's cousin wc3. There are a lot of games that are easier to play than DOTA but are less popular. Did I just blow your mind? How is it so hard to understand that difficulty and game popularity have a tenuous correlation at best? It is really pathetic how defensive people are about SC2 as if there has to be some sort of positive justification for playing a different game. "He plays DOTA instead of SC2... but he only does it because DOTA is easier and he isn't man enough to play SC2!"
never said anything of that nature. I was saying that dota 2 is enjoyable to a greater amount of people than sc2 because it's an easier game to play. A lot of people don't play sc2 because they see it as a chore and don't enjoy themselves. I can even prove this with brood war vs sc2. The reason sc2 is way more popular globally than brood war was is because sc2 itself is WAY easier to play than brood war was, hence more people enjoy themselves while playing the game, which leads to more people playing an a regular basis.
On August 09 2013 08:35 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 08:31 dutchfriese wrote:
lol . I was telling you about how dota was created. I realize blizzard didn't create the game, but they created the map editor it was made on, and the reason it became so popular is because it was easier to play than it's cousin wc3. again.. how is it relevant? The reason it became popular could just as easily be that it was more fun to play than WC3
because we are discussing which game is easier for a novice user, and it proves my point.
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EPT
