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On July 09 2013 04:22 yocheco619 wrote:
Can someone explain why they don't just remove the biological aspect from the HellBat? I think that would help alot for the drops and these marauder hellbat pushes since, ya know, the transformer is biological.
Hellbats tank too well otherwise. It allows archon hits to deal a lot of damage (more than before and obviously with the area of effect), which helps protoss to clean up the front line that gets in their way, allowing them to do more than just kite until all the hellbats are dead.
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On July 09 2013 04:18 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 04:15 Sokrates wrote:A lot of the zerg wins are due to the roach bane allins, terrans will easily adapt to this and then in 2-3 months it would (will) be 58% for the terrans again. Terrans make slower 3rd CCs to be safe against roachbane -> they lose their edge in the midgame and get slaughtered by ultras. Your post is one huge assumption.
And your post is an even bigger one.
Although, actually it is no assumption but rather just wrong.
On July 09 2013 04:25 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 04:22 yocheco619 wrote:
Can someone explain why they don't just remove the biological aspect from the HellBat? I think that would help alot for the drops and these marauder hellbat pushes since, ya know, the transformer is biological. Hellbats tank too well otherwise. It allows archon hits to deal a lot of damage (more than before and obviously with the area of effect), which helps protoss to clean up the front line that gets in their way, allowing them to do more than just kite until all the hellbats are dead.
Are you sure that Archons alone make up for the healing by the medivacs? Because I very much doubt that.
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On July 09 2013 02:33 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 02:29 HTOMario wrote:As always, we’ve been keeping a close eye on the balance of things, and have decided to address the issues concerning Terran and the Hellbat.
Here are our thoughts:
1. Hellbat drops are mainly an issue for TvT.
2. Terran isn't over performing so while nerfing Hellbats, we’d like to simultaneously push a buff to the Banshee.
3. We think seeing less Hellbat play in the early mid game is not a bad thing, as other Terran harass options are a lot more interesting to watch.
4. This change will also address any other lingering concerns we may have with Hellbats outside of TvT when it comes to early mid game.
So overall, we believe the changes we've been testing in the balance test map are solid for Hellbats:
Attack damage decreased from 18 +12 vs. light to 18.
The Infernal Pre-Igniter upgrade increases attack damage from 18 to 18 +12 vs. light.
Banshee changes on the other hand, we're planning on going ahead with just the cost reduction change only:
Cloaking Field research cost decreased from 200/200 to 100/100
Let us know if you have any feedback. We are looking to implement these changes sometime this week. Personally I like the changes, I wish they reduced the time for blue flame though. xD I can't wait to try out the new banshees. Its like that took the removed 100/100 from the cost of cloak from Banshees and added it to the cost of Hellbat's ability to wipe out worker lines. The change seems fine. It gives Hellbats the late game punch they need, but they would 3 shot workers until they got the upgrade. And the banshee needed a boost. Protoss can sniff that thing out with all their new fancy scouting, so I don't see an issue.
I know, 9 pages behind the discussion, but I have an issue with this. P and Z were given omgwtf tools to shut banshees down easily, with any standard build and no deviations. There's literally no excuse to lose to them in those matchups. Even with arguably fast(er) and cheaper cloak, it's still shut down just the same.
The only reason banshees were "okay" in TvT was the amount of investment needed for hellbat drops left one vulnerable to air.
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On July 09 2013 04:25 Aunvilgod wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 04:18 Bagi wrote:On July 09 2013 04:15 Sokrates wrote:A lot of the zerg wins are due to the roach bane allins, terrans will easily adapt to this and then in 2-3 months it would (will) be 58% for the terrans again. Terrans make slower 3rd CCs to be safe against roachbane -> they lose their edge in the midgame and get slaughtered by ultras. Your post is one huge assumption. And your post is an even bigger one. Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 04:25 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:On July 09 2013 04:22 yocheco619 wrote:
Can someone explain why they don't just remove the biological aspect from the HellBat? I think that would help alot for the drops and these marauder hellbat pushes since, ya know, the transformer is biological. Hellbats tank too well otherwise. It allows archon hits to deal a lot of damage (more than before and obviously with the area of effect), which helps protoss to clean up the front line that gets in their way, allowing them to do more than just kite until all the hellbats are dead. Are you sure that Archons alone make up for the healing by the medivacs? Because I very much doubt that.
I'm not arguing that it is or isn't enough, I'm explaining the supposed reasoning as far as I've heard. 
EDIT: Medivac healing is 8.5-9 (I think Liquipedia and the map editor state 9) per game second. +10 damage per hit from an archon equals only +5.7143 damage per second. 
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And on top of that, you can't use GSL qualifier data for the same reason you were excluding the Aligulac data. Any random Korean Masters player who shows up and gets roflstomped by JYP or the like gets counted in the data. So that spreadsheet is just as invalid as Aligulac.
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On July 09 2013 04:26 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 02:33 Plansix wrote:On July 09 2013 02:29 HTOMario wrote:As always, we’ve been keeping a close eye on the balance of things, and have decided to address the issues concerning Terran and the Hellbat.
Here are our thoughts:
1. Hellbat drops are mainly an issue for TvT.
2. Terran isn't over performing so while nerfing Hellbats, we’d like to simultaneously push a buff to the Banshee.
3. We think seeing less Hellbat play in the early mid game is not a bad thing, as other Terran harass options are a lot more interesting to watch.
4. This change will also address any other lingering concerns we may have with Hellbats outside of TvT when it comes to early mid game.
So overall, we believe the changes we've been testing in the balance test map are solid for Hellbats:
Attack damage decreased from 18 +12 vs. light to 18.
The Infernal Pre-Igniter upgrade increases attack damage from 18 to 18 +12 vs. light.
Banshee changes on the other hand, we're planning on going ahead with just the cost reduction change only:
Cloaking Field research cost decreased from 200/200 to 100/100
Let us know if you have any feedback. We are looking to implement these changes sometime this week. Personally I like the changes, I wish they reduced the time for blue flame though. xD I can't wait to try out the new banshees. Its like that took the removed 100/100 from the cost of cloak from Banshees and added it to the cost of Hellbat's ability to wipe out worker lines. The change seems fine. It gives Hellbats the late game punch they need, but they would 3 shot workers until they got the upgrade. And the banshee needed a boost. Protoss can sniff that thing out with all their new fancy scouting, so I don't see an issue. I know, 9 pages behind the discussion, but I have an issue with this. P and Z were given omgwtf tools to shut banshees down easily, with any standard build and no deviations. There's literally no excuse to lose to them in those matchups. Even with arguably fast(er) and cheaper cloak, it's still shut down just the same. The only reason banshees were "okay" in TvT was the amount of investment needed for hellbat drops left one vulnerable to air.
Exactly. This is a straight up nerf to TvZ and TvP. Banshees will remain worthless.
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The banshie cost decrease is v interesting. Will definitely see more use of them in the future and more interesting strats (zerg player)
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Decent patch. I'm a little concerned how fast cloaked banshee can come out now (or with just 1 gas), but we shall see.
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Bisutopia19316 Posts
It's not hard to get that upgrade. I see more of early banshees being an issue you here. Wouldn't you rather they made banshees useful for the whole game!?!
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I'd forgotten banshees existed lol
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I love the change for TvT, but I don't know if Hellbats needed to be nerfed vs non-terran workers, for which Blizzard could have left it at +4 light damage, but overall I'm glad anyway. I won't mind trying 1 gas cloaked banshee builds in any match up, even if P and Z get detection easier than ever (in a way, it seems rather fair since DT shrine costs 100 less gas than in WoL).
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On July 09 2013 03:50 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 03:48 Qikz wrote:I don't mind this change but the thing I hate is they say "other harass is more exciting" Oh great, so now we're balancing the game around what's exciting and not what's interesting. I'm not saying Hellbat drops were interesting, but this really does put the nail in the coffin for any form of badly needed tank buff because they think they're boring. I'm losing faith in this game slowly but surely. I really wish mech were more viable  I think this banshee buff adds quite a bit to mech builds that include heavy starport use imo.
People are quick to forget how MVP used heavy banshees effectively for quite some time. They may end up similar to the new Voidrays, acting as mobile aerial DPS improvement for ground forces. 5-6 banshees can really up the dps of a push, help bust defenses, etc.... they don't need to be used exclusively for cloak harassment.
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Cool, hellbat drops were just so annoying in TvT
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On July 09 2013 04:28 lorestarcraft wrote:
Decent patch. I'm a little concerned how fast cloaked banshee can come out now (or with just 1 gas), but we shall see.
According to Demuslim, they will be 20-30 seconds faster than before. The only difference is that you can start cloak and banshee at the same time but banshee still hits later than for example oracle. So it should be fine in TvT and basically wont do nothing in TvP and TvZ.
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Will we see the return of cloaked banshee vs cloaked banshee in TvT? It was pretty strong a while back when the 1-1-1 was all the rage. I think people are a bit too worried about certain strategies being too popular, especially since its a mirror match up. All in all though, should be fun changes.
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I’d say the nerf is a ‘soft’ nerf. Shouldn’t make the unit useless or anything and the original damage can still be attained with an upgrade, I approve. The Banshee change is interesting, I think it could work. WP buff hasn’t seemed to really change the meta much yet, wonder if these Terran changes will be any different?
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The main question is, do I switch to P or Z? I really don't like the hellbat nerf in TvP. They were so crucial in holding off chargelot ht attacks.
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gimmy dat 100 gas cloak , nice change
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On July 09 2013 04:28 lorestarcraft wrote:
Decent patch. I'm a little concerned how fast cloaked banshee can come out now (or with just 1 gas), but we shall see.
Pretty scary as a Protoss, with no "oh shit" detection.
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EPT
