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On June 22 2013 03:07 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 02:26 GhostOwl wrote:
It makes no sense to me whatever that Terrans are the majority of the complainers here. If anything, Zergs have way harder time dealing with warp prisms...T's T1 unit can attack air, Zerg has.....slow queens? Turrets, vikings, marines, widow mines can all effectively shut down warp prism..Zerg has to rely on mutas (which means those mutas can't use the time to harrass the Protoss mineral line)
I guess we just found out that Zerg players on TL are much more open minded and accepting while Terran players on TL are much more confrontational and biased Or your low knowledge of the TvP match-up doesn't allow you to understand why this change is bad for Terrans. The fact Marines can shoot air is like completely irrelevant; or maybe they also fly in your version of the game so they can chase the Prism parked in the air space near your bases?
The fact that marines can shoot air is irrelevant? It allows for Terran to stop early warp prism harrass much easier than Zerg who can't use their zerglings to shoot air.
This guy is a high ranked Terran but he's pretty much almost Avilo #2 in my eyes now..incredibly biased towards his race..pity such a high ranked player has to be like this.
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United Kingdom12071 Posts
On June 22 2013 09:03 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 03:07 TheDwf wrote:On June 22 2013 02:26 GhostOwl wrote:
It makes no sense to me whatever that Terrans are the majority of the complainers here. If anything, Zergs have way harder time dealing with warp prisms...T's T1 unit can attack air, Zerg has.....slow queens? Turrets, vikings, marines, widow mines can all effectively shut down warp prism..Zerg has to rely on mutas (which means those mutas can't use the time to harrass the Protoss mineral line)
I guess we just found out that Zerg players on TL are much more open minded and accepting while Terran players on TL are much more confrontational and biased Or your low knowledge of the TvP match-up doesn't allow you to understand why this change is bad for Terrans. The fact Marines can shoot air is like completely irrelevant; or maybe they also fly in your version of the game so they can chase the Prism parked in the air space near your bases? The fact that marines can shoot air is irrelevant? It allows for Terran to stop early warp prism harrass much easier than Zerg who can't use their zerglings to shoot air. This guy is a high ranked Terran but he's pretty much almost Avilo #2 in my eyes now..incredibly biased towards his race..pity such a high ranked player has to be like this.
I think the annoying thing with this whole situation is people look at bio having to maybe do some defense for a change is a bad thing.
I like that bio isn't able to just sit out on the map for free now and heck, maybe it'll even help promote mech.
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On June 22 2013 02:26 GhostOwl wrote:
It makes no sense to me whatever that Terrans are the majority of the complainers here. If anything, Zergs have way harder time dealing with warp prisms...T's T1 unit can attack air, Zerg has.....slow queens? Turrets, vikings, marines, widow mines can all effectively shut down warp prism..Zerg has to rely on mutas (which means those mutas can't use the time to harrass the Protoss mineral line)
I guess we just found out that Zerg players on TL are much more open minded and accepting while Terran players on TL are much more confrontational and biased
While I don't know if I agree with your conclusion, I'm adjusting many more of strategies versus Zerg than versus Terran based on this.
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WP play is the ONLY toss harass that doesn't require heavy investment away from useful tech in their main army.
I'm super happy to see a WP buff, hopefully we'll see more speedprism + immo/colossi play at the pro level too 
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On June 22 2013 07:54 MagnuMizer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 06:49 dAPhREAk wrote:Thank you so much for helping us test the Warp Prism changes. We're going to put the current Warp Prism changes in the balance test map into the game this week because we feel it is a good minor buff to Protoss harassing capabilities.
Changes are:
o Movement speed increased from 2.5 to 2.953.
o Acceleration increased from 2.125 to 2.625.
We will be closely monitoring both ladder and tournament games to make sure everything goes as expected once the changes go live.
As for the other changes in the balance test map, we're still looking into them and more playtesting/feedback from you guys will be greatly appreciated. We believe this collaborative community effort is really helpful for the game. Thank you. Cool patch, i'm glad to see this... I wonder though why those numbers 2.953 and 2.625 are so specific (with so many decimals) i wonder how they balanced that... why not 3 and 2.6 ? it must be connected to some other units' movement speeds... hmm
Well .625 = 5/8 and .953 is likely a rounded .953125 = 61/64
Whatever discrete coordinate system they are using on their side probably operates in increments of 1/64 or 1/256 for technical reasons.
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On June 22 2013 06:53 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 03:11 J.E.G. wrote:And still only one or two base all-ins w/o warp prism since patch at plat level tvp  That doesnt say anything about balance. half pf thw Terrans at masters play some weird 2base (sometimes even 1base) allins. e.g. 2rax, 6rax, 2base hellbat allins, reactored hellion expands blablabla... Still, all the forumterrans will swear that Terran does not have a single allin possibility. TLDR: people play shit on low levels. learn to deal with it.
Where did I say anything about balance, ya big dummy? I want my games to be more interesting instead of protoss all-in succeeds and i lose, or fails and i win. Boring.
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On June 22 2013 03:07 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 02:26 GhostOwl wrote:
It makes no sense to me whatever that Terrans are the majority of the complainers here. If anything, Zergs have way harder time dealing with warp prisms...T's T1 unit can attack air, Zerg has.....slow queens? Turrets, vikings, marines, widow mines can all effectively shut down warp prism..Zerg has to rely on mutas (which means those mutas can't use the time to harrass the Protoss mineral line)
I guess we just found out that Zerg players on TL are much more open minded and accepting while Terran players on TL are much more confrontational and biased Or your low knowledge of the TvP match-up doesn't allow you to understand why this change is bad for Terrans. The fact Marines can shoot air is like completely irrelevant; or maybe they also fly in your version of the game so they can chase the Prism parked in the air space near your bases?
Thedwf being classy as always, the classic idra line "your knowledge of the game is not as good as mine!", Good Terrans are dealing with this already, perhaps due to adapting instead of complaining.
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On June 22 2013 08:18 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 07:52 Wombat_NI wrote:
Be that as it may, what kind of play is this specifically bolstering for Protoss that isn't possible in the current build in PvT? Certain builds receive a boost, like the Tails DT drop, but that build's strength is due to the bloody MSC deathcannon. I had high hopes for the MSC as an auxilliary macro aid, but it's turned out as I feared in being primarily used to aid allins, or to make greedy play hard to punish. If anything vT is the matchup I see it affecting least, with PvP Immortal drops might come back into vogue, and in vZ you can exploit the Zerg's lack of pre-hydra ground-air options.
I haven't been playing lately, I'm bad anyway so I'm not seeing any experimentation on the ladder done by decent players. Would like to hear what's actually been going down! It strenghtens midgame for Protoss, which is not a good thing considering this is the phase in which Terran has to use his initiative to build a lead, or simply win. Strenghtening Protoss' midgame also means they will have an easier time getting to lategame, with little to no hope for Terran. Zealots/DTs raids are extremely annoying to deal with because your army is supposed to be on the other side of the map pressuring, and you have to spent attention/time microing the units coming from your production while Protoss is free to let his units in autopilot (unmicroed Zealots/DTs massacre unmicroed bio in small numbers). Before, a single Viking could make sure the Prism would be destroyed even if Protoss parked it somewhere around your base; now it's no longer possible since you won't catch the Prism if he unloads/warps and goes away.
"My race is supposed to be able to completely leave our base the entire game without any risk and without building static defense. It's the protoss's job to defend everything all the time and i won't stand for it!"
seriously how old are you man? you think it's imbalanced that protoss doesn't have to lose their warp prism if they have good multitasking and control? What makes your race so special that you feel you're the only ones that should be able to safely multitask different groups of units?
how about building static defenses, having patrolling vikings, or even having the greatest scouting tool ever...the sensor tower
protoss has to invest into many observer to stop drops, plus blink or feedback, stalkers/ht's at a base, and eventually cannons. that's SO MUCH GAS and so much splitting of an already weak army. and besides, it's not like the protoss has any good harassment units(dt's aren't worth the cost assuming you have non-crappy scouting/detection)
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He is right, turrets should be adjusted, bonus to mechanical damage?
Cheaper cost? Faster build times? Higher rate of fire?
I'm actually lost on this one.
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Like this will change much when there arent any useful units to drop as Protoss since everything is so weak on its own in the protoss arsenal.
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On June 22 2013 14:16 Thinasy wrote:
Like this will change much when there arent any useful units to drop as Protoss since everything is so weak on its own in the protoss arsenal.
DT's, HT's and Immortals are all really good WP units, and the buff will allow for more HT/Immo drops to be possible due to the retreat being faster. i see in the future double WP Colossus drops onto mineral lines.
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On June 22 2013 14:22 vult wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 14:16 Thinasy wrote:
Like this will change much when there arent any useful units to drop as Protoss since everything is so weak on its own in the protoss arsenal. DT's, HT's and Immortals are all really good WP units, and the buff will allow for more HT/Immo drops to be possible due to the retreat being faster. i see in the future double WP Colossus drops onto mineral lines.
DT's yes i'll give you that, Immortals and Warp prisms is mostly a micro thing in battles, other then that? nah, I cant see someone risking dropping colossus or immortals since they cant do shitloads of damage just straight up. Warp Prism is still really fragile, HT drops maybe, but storms doesnt really do THAT much damage imo (im playing terran) they arent BW storms for sure. You have plenty of time to react to a HT drop since workers doesnt die immediately.
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On June 22 2013 09:09 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 09:03 GhostOwl wrote:On June 22 2013 03:07 TheDwf wrote:On June 22 2013 02:26 GhostOwl wrote:
It makes no sense to me whatever that Terrans are the majority of the complainers here. If anything, Zergs have way harder time dealing with warp prisms...T's T1 unit can attack air, Zerg has.....slow queens? Turrets, vikings, marines, widow mines can all effectively shut down warp prism..Zerg has to rely on mutas (which means those mutas can't use the time to harrass the Protoss mineral line)
I guess we just found out that Zerg players on TL are much more open minded and accepting while Terran players on TL are much more confrontational and biased Or your low knowledge of the TvP match-up doesn't allow you to understand why this change is bad for Terrans. The fact Marines can shoot air is like completely irrelevant; or maybe they also fly in your version of the game so they can chase the Prism parked in the air space near your bases? The fact that marines can shoot air is irrelevant? It allows for Terran to stop early warp prism harrass much easier than Zerg who can't use their zerglings to shoot air. This guy is a high ranked Terran but he's pretty much almost Avilo #2 in my eyes now..incredibly biased towards his race..pity such a high ranked player has to be like this. I think the annoying thing with this whole situation is people look at bio having to maybe do some defense for a change is a bad thing. I like that bio isn't able to just sit out on the map for free now and heck, maybe it'll even help promote mech.
I am at a complete loss how you think this could possibly in any scenario promote mech. If anything it will be completely the opposite.
For example when going mech the toss will have an even longer window early game with full map control. That means you have to keep your army at the front all the time in case he decided to do an all-in and attack (the majority of the games). But then with new warp prisms he drops bunch of sentries in your main, FFs ramp, proceeds to win. So then you would need to place your army around the ramp, which means if the toss attacks the bunker at your natural ramp is pretty much irrelevant. The same is true with a bio build, although then you can more quickly get some map control, and your army is a bit faster than siege tanks are.
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On June 22 2013 14:16 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:He is right, turrets should be adjusted, bonus to mechanical damage? Cheaper cost? Faster build times? Higher rate of fire? I'm actually lost on this one.
Give Turrets and spores bonus against light, then make Warpprism and Medvavs light units. Bonus against light is also good against Mutas (replace vs bio of spores) and Phoenixes, the two massed flyers. That way static defense would get a relevant advantage over units.
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Well, the meching player is more likely to have well placed widow mines that will stop the WP in it's tracks and give Terran an edge because of the wasted sentries, but I agree that this change will only promote WM usage, not mech persay.
I'm really excited about the change. There are a few strategies and tactics I'm excited to revisit with the buff. There was a tactic based on a quick immortal and 2 stalkers running around in a warp prism killing overlords and forcing Zerg to produce units, it should be better now. Also I want to try to rush out a colossus drop. Fried marines and scv's, yummy.
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I wanted buffs but now I'm started to be scare of them O.O
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On June 22 2013 16:13 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 09:09 Qikz wrote:On June 22 2013 09:03 GhostOwl wrote:On June 22 2013 03:07 TheDwf wrote:On June 22 2013 02:26 GhostOwl wrote:
It makes no sense to me whatever that Terrans are the majority of the complainers here. If anything, Zergs have way harder time dealing with warp prisms...T's T1 unit can attack air, Zerg has.....slow queens? Turrets, vikings, marines, widow mines can all effectively shut down warp prism..Zerg has to rely on mutas (which means those mutas can't use the time to harrass the Protoss mineral line)
I guess we just found out that Zerg players on TL are much more open minded and accepting while Terran players on TL are much more confrontational and biased Or your low knowledge of the TvP match-up doesn't allow you to understand why this change is bad for Terrans. The fact Marines can shoot air is like completely irrelevant; or maybe they also fly in your version of the game so they can chase the Prism parked in the air space near your bases? The fact that marines can shoot air is irrelevant? It allows for Terran to stop early warp prism harrass much easier than Zerg who can't use their zerglings to shoot air. This guy is a high ranked Terran but he's pretty much almost Avilo #2 in my eyes now..incredibly biased towards his race..pity such a high ranked player has to be like this. I think the annoying thing with this whole situation is people look at bio having to maybe do some defense for a change is a bad thing. I like that bio isn't able to just sit out on the map for free now and heck, maybe it'll even help promote mech. I am at a complete loss how you think this could possibly in any scenario promote mech. If anything it will be completely the opposite. .
yup....Mech is far more vulnerable to warp prism harass than bio. No way you'll see any mech at the pro level because of this change!
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On June 22 2013 04:57 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 03:21 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 03:07 TheDwf wrote:On June 22 2013 02:26 GhostOwl wrote:
It makes no sense to me whatever that Terrans are the majority of the complainers here. If anything, Zergs have way harder time dealing with warp prisms...T's T1 unit can attack air, Zerg has.....slow queens? Turrets, vikings, marines, widow mines can all effectively shut down warp prism..Zerg has to rely on mutas (which means those mutas can't use the time to harrass the Protoss mineral line)
I guess we just found out that Zerg players on TL are much more open minded and accepting while Terran players on TL are much more confrontational and biased Or your low knowledge of the TvP match-up doesn't allow you to understand why this change is bad for Terrans. The fact Marines can shoot air is like completely irrelevant; or maybe they also fly in your version of the game so they can chase the Prism parked in the air space near your bases? Translation: "If you were a bad ass GM like me, you would have a deeper understanding of how bad this change is for my race. But you aren't, your point is invalid. Come back when your on my level." Reminds me of another GM- Where is Avilo actually. + Show Spoiler +Actually Painuser was another GM... and god knows how good any of terrans bitching on Artosis' show are anyway. But yeah gomtvt that was a healthy era wasn't it. That's why this community focuses on awesome gameplay rather than drama. Because the game is so well designed and interesting.
Avilo got temp banned for his whining the last I knew.
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On June 22 2013 16:20 Daswollvieh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 14:16 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:He is right, turrets should be adjusted, bonus to mechanical damage? Cheaper cost? Faster build times? Higher rate of fire? I'm actually lost on this one. Give Turrets and spores bonus against light, then make Warpprism and Medvavs light units. Bonus against light is also good against Mutas (replace vs bio of spores) and Phoenixes, the two massed flyers. That way static defense would get a relevant advantage over units.
Nah Zergs need more AA option. NOT BUFFING SPORES AGAIN!!!
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On June 22 2013 14:16 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:He is right, turrets should be adjusted, bonus to mechanical damage? Cheaper cost? Faster build times? Higher rate of fire? I'm actually lost on this one.
Shuttles are still faster than Prisms, Arbiters are more powerful than prisms. You needed more than 20 turrets to stop an Arbiter recall (not kidding). In late game TvP it was not rare to see Flash make more than 50 turrets on Fighting Spirit, with far less bases than Toss and just have to deal with it. On top of this you always played pure-mech which was extremely immobile compared to stimmed marines who can also shoot air, 1 recall often changed an almost won game into an instant loss.
When Protoss went fast robotics, you had to surround your base with turrets or lose all your scvs and tanks to one reaver shot, Protoss can actually choose to just expand afterwards thus making you waste all your money. This actually happened in a semi-final and Flash ultimately (pun intended) was eliminated from the tournament.
You only need 1 turret in SC2 to stop anything and you have Mules. Terran needs to stop whining, its not at all powerful in the slightest. The only difference is Protoss is a lot more flexible than 3base 1a deathballs, which is something we should really be promoting.
The difference is Terran needs to just make a fucking turret or two instead of only having to have 1 viking to prevent all drop play which is just retarded game design. This is not hard people, its not 50 turrets like in the previous game, Terrans will definitely be able to cope with no problems. The game has been imbalanced within this element of the game since beta, Blizzard is now just balancing it and Terran players will have to cope with having to get ranked within their rightful place, only because this imbalance is what got them their undeserved rank in the first place.
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