EPT[Now live] New Patch - Warp Prism buff - Page 44
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bypLy
757 Posts
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On June 23 2013 03:39 Axxis wrote: I'd like to see one of you Terrans post a replay of a decent tournament (doesn't necessarily have to be pro either) Diamond + with a protoss player on 30+ gates. Thorzain vs Hasuobs, HSC VII, now played  If Hasuobs doesnt have 30 gates, he is at least damn close. Edit: Just confirmed by casters to be 31 gates. | ||
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hummingbird23
Norway359 Posts
On June 23 2013 05:49 Sissors wrote: Thorzain vs Hasuobs, HSC VII, now played If Hasuobs doesnt have 30 gates, he is at least damn close. Edit: Just confirmed by casters to be 31 gates. Thorzain was a dead man walking. Hasuobs had three quarters of that map and was just waiting for Thorzain to starve. But in order to keep it that way, there was never the supply to mass warp zealots into the back, the main army of Hasu was always patrolling the front and the supply was constantly tied up. | ||
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Jevity
United States67 Posts
Is it that you are keeping supply from your main army/drops? | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
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Albinoswordfish
United States108 Posts
On June 23 2013 10:41 Xequecal wrote: Warp Prism drops against Terran still have to deal with the fact that, even in the best case scenario, you're not going to kill anything except supply depots and addons. Your gateway units can't catch up to/kill fleeing SCVs and everything else can just lift off. If a warpin has caused Terran to lift off his buildings, Terran has already lost the game. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On June 23 2013 08:24 Jevity wrote: Is there a downside to keeping a bunker or two filled with marines/maruaders at each expansion when you play against protoss? Is it that you are keeping supply from your main army/drops? Units in a bunker cost supply ... and this reduces the size of the army you have to engagem the opponents army ... and thus your chance of success. People could build turrets, but they are too greedy to do that most of the time and for the third or fourth that isnt a solution, because you can usually walk to them from a nearby pylon (which doesnt cost the Protoss any supply compared to the Warp Prism). | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On June 23 2013 08:24 Jevity wrote: Is there a downside to keeping a bunker or two filled with marines/maruaders at each expansion when you play against protoss? Is it that you are keeping supply from your main army/drops? Yeah, Terran cannot have an advantage in quality of units in the mid game (protoss has chronoboost for upgrades and generally stronger tech in Collosi and/or High Templar), so it's important to maintain a quantity advantage and soft contain protoss to delay their economy. That's why it's not unusual to see Terran at ~180 supply around 13:00 while protoss has ~130. Protoss has better tech and upgrades, so they're not actually that far behind, but it does create scary timing moments when Terran upgrades finish before the second form of AoE is out (i.e. a small window where Terran has a quantity advantage and equalizes on quality). Wether or not Terran tries to hit this timing, it's the threat of it that allows Terran to transition from mid game to late game. If you're leaving a bunch of units in bunkers, you're giving Protoss the safety to take an earlier third and not fall behind on economy, and I honestly can't see any Terran player winning without taking a big economy lead in the mid game. Even players who play ghost / viking turtle rely on this economy advantage to get the 8+ gas economy required to start really massing ghosts. | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On June 23 2013 10:50 Albinoswordfish wrote: If a warpin has caused Terran to lift off his buildings, Terran has already lost the game. This isn't universally true. In the midgame, if Protoss spends a ton of resources on a prism and warping in a ton of units, Terran might be able to counterattack the natural. If they kill the natural and force Protoss into their main they'll easily win despite the unanswered drop. The reverse of this is certainly not true, if you completely ignore even a two-dropship Terran drop for any length of time you're going to lose the game even if you kill every expansion and leave them turtling in their main. In the late game, while it will certainly cost Terran a lot of minerals to replace a bunch of depots, if both sides are supply capped and not currently ramming their armies together the production disruption as the production facilities are relocated might not even matter. | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On June 23 2013 08:24 Jevity wrote: Is there a downside to keeping a bunker or two filled with marines/maruaders at each expansion when you play against protoss? Is it that you are keeping supply from your main army/drops? Yeah, there is. Terran units are the most cost-effective in the game, but they're the least supply-effective. As such, in the late game supply is Terran's most precious resource, and they can't waste it. | ||
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LTY
United States223 Posts
but NEVER MIND. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24968 Posts
On June 23 2013 11:44 LTY wrote: dam i havn't played sc2 for a while, and was thinking about coming back. but NEVER MIND. Rofl, one less QQer on ladder | ||
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GhostOwl
766 Posts
On June 23 2013 11:32 Xequecal wrote: Yeah, there is. Terran units are the most cost-effective in the game, but they're the least supply-effective. As such, in the late game supply is Terran's most precious resource, and they can't waste it. Wut? Wat did I just read? Protoss is the least supply-effective race or a Roach-based Zerg army. | ||
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FCReverie
Australia103 Posts
On June 23 2013 11:32 Xequecal wrote: Yeah, there is. Terran units are the most cost-effective in the game, but they're the least supply-effective. As such, in the late game supply is Terran's most precious resource, and they can't waste it. Someone has never played Midgame Zerg. Roaches and corruptors are by far the least supply effective units in the game. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
On June 23 2013 05:49 Sissors wrote: Thorzain vs Hasuobs, HSC VII, now played If Hasuobs doesnt have 30 gates, he is at least damn close. Edit: Just confirmed by casters to be 31 gates. This is totally irrelevant. It isn't like they added the Warp Prism to the game with this patch, they just made it faster when it isn't upgraded. Thus this kind of strategy always existed, and anyone investing into 31 games is going to be able to afford Warp Prism Speed. | ||
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zbedlam
Australia549 Posts
On June 23 2013 12:42 GhostOwl wrote: Wut? Wat did I just read? Protoss is the least supply-effective race or a Roach-based Zerg army. Protoss gateway is less supply effective. The rest of the race is ridiculously supply effective to counteract this. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On June 23 2013 01:10 AxionSteel wrote: Yup, because someone stating that missile turrets are overpowered and causing terrans to be placed in leagues too high for their skill level clearly warrants an intelligent response. Judging by your posts in this thread, you're as biased as anyone else. Lol I'm not the only one, even Day9 said missile turrets were absurdly powerful near when SC2 came out. Second of all I never said missile turrets caused Terran to be placed leagues too high. I was implying that Terran's mobility is imbalanced and now when Protoss has a piece of the pie, even though Terran defense against drops is far better than any other race, they complain. On June 23 2013 05:16 Sissors wrote: I'll ignore the rest of your missile turret rant for now. But the idea that with 2-3 turrets you can defend warp prism play is simply hilarious. It is flat out impossible. Warp prisms are quite strong, so can take quite a bit of hits, and for most of their usage they really don't need to hover right over the mineral line. Not to mention even if 2-3 turrets would be all it would take (how many bases is that btw in your game, which seems to have a bit more turret range), it still wouldn't be realistic against all-ins. Later, sure. But by then nothing has changed compared to before patch anyway. Btw it is really easy to call everyone horrible regarding turret placement, I can do it too: Protoss need to understand the science of blinking. They would win every game if they weren't so horrible with it. That statement is as useful as yours, in other words: please enlighten us how we all place our turrets wrong, and where we should place them instead. Yeah if he switched to warp mode on top of a missile turret, sure. But really that would be pretty retarded of that player. And the reason I am dubious about this buff is not because I don't think I can handle warp prisms, it is because right now protoss has a shitton of all-ins. And with this change it has a shitton + several more around warp prisms, where dropping sentries, FF'ing ramp, warping in units is the one I am most afraid for. If that was the only thing I wouldn't be worried, but combine it with all the other all-ins that are very hard to distinguish and i am worried. Turret placement doesn't require mechanics, it requires thinking. Sure if everyone had blink micro like automaton2000 that would be a legitimate statement. You also cut off this part of my quote That statement alone may confuse you, but that's because most players can't figure shit out on their own and think if a pro hasn't done it already it can't exist and therefore won't bother learning it. Much like how I never saw anyone use simcity until pros started doing it a lot. What can I say, my statement has confused you because the science of turret positioning in SC2 has never ever mattered until now. To you it seems impossible only because you've never seen a pro do it before, therefore it does not exist. 3 turrets is more than enough to cover two bases, much like how 3 terrible bw turrets (that couldn't stop a paper aeroplane even if it tried) was enough to defend almost every single cheese Protoss could do. Much like how everyone complained about the iEchoic build while I was busy getting free wins with proper simcity. Afterwards all the Zergs started using it and SjoW won a tournament using it, but until then everyone thought "its impossible to defend against hellions/reapers" because apparently simcity just didn't exist. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=196232 | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On June 23 2013 13:01 BronzeKnee wrote: This is totally irrelevant. It isn't like they added the Warp Prism to the game with this patch, they just made it faster when it isn't upgraded. Thus this kind of strategy always existed, and anyone investing into 31 games is going to be able to afford Warp Prism Speed. Someone asks for an example of a decent tournament where the protoss players is on 30+ gates, I give it, you complain that it is irrelevant. Then you should have said that to the one asking for example, not to me. On June 22 2013 21:57 AxionSteel wrote: Turret placement doesn't require mechanics, it requires thinking. Sure if everyone had blink micro like automaton2000 that would be a legitimate statement. You also cut off this part of my quote What can I say, my statement has confused you because the science of turret positioning in SC2 has never ever mattered until now. To you it seems impossible only because you've never seen a pro do it before, therefore it does not exist. 3 turrets is more than enough to cover two bases, much like how 3 terrible bw turrets (that couldn't stop a paper aeroplane even if it tried) was enough to defend almost every single cheese Protoss could do. Much like how everyone complained about the iEchoic build while I was busy getting free wins with proper simcity. Afterwards all the Zergs started using it and SjoW won a tournament using it, but until then everyone thought "its impossible to defend against hellions/reapers" because apparently simcity just didn't exist. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=196232 Sorry but proper blink use requires thinking. I would compare it to this topic: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=196232. But yeah when people don't see pros using proper blinks it does not exist. And as long as protoss keep thinking that they deserve to lose every game. For people not getting it, that isn't serious. However it is to show the huge fallacy in the argument presented with apparently 3 turrets across 2 bases able to stop every kind of warp prism play: They just claim it without anything to back it up. They claim every single terran has horrible turret place placement, without telling how it would be horrible, let alone how it should be done better. It is just blindly screaming that it is done wrong. Btw do take into account a warp prism can fly right over a missile turret easily. | ||
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gruff
Sweden2276 Posts
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On June 23 2013 15:59 Sissors wrote: Someone asks for an example of a decent tournament where the protoss players is on 30+ gates, I give it, you complain that it is irrelevant. Then you should have said that to the one asking for example, not to me. Sorry but proper blink use requires thinking. I would compare it to this topic: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=196232. But yeah when people don't see pros using proper blinks it does not exist. And as long as protoss keep thinking that they deserve to lose every game. For people not getting it, that isn't serious. However it is to show the huge fallacy in the argument presented with apparently 3 turrets across 2 bases able to stop every kind of warp prism play: They just claim it without anything to back it up. They claim every single terran has horrible turret place placement, without telling how it would be horrible, let alone how it should be done better. It is just blindly screaming that it is done wrong. Btw do take into account a warp prism can fly right over a missile turret easily. Spoken like a true whiner who can't figure things out for themselves and has to wait for a pro to teach them how to do it. If someone had the mechanics of automaton2000 yes I would agree with you, however nobody does and nobody will. If you spend time blinking stalkers, you are most likely compensating your macro, in which case it is pointless because macro is the highest priority element. Knowing where to build turrets does not impede on any other elements on the game. If I had time I would create an article just like I did with the simcity one and spend time researching, however I won't be buying HotS because the current design of SC2 just doesn't sit well with me. I am going to requote another thing I said sluggaslamoo wrote:Because of the insane DPS of Missile Turrets in SC2, people never realised that turrets actually have utility beyond being a building which kills air units. The thought of "If it doesn't outright kill/stop the prism, it must be useless" just boggles my mind. This is exactly what is happening, you need some pro to teach you how to do it because you are incapable of figuring things out on your own. You need everything to be spoon fed to you, its a pretty sad state to be in. On June 23 2013 05:16 Sissors wrote: I'll ignore the rest of your missile turret rant for now. But the idea that with 2-3 turrets you can defend warp prism play is simply hilarious. It is flat out impossible. Warp prisms are quite strong, so can take quite a bit of hits, and for most of their usage they really don't need to hover right over the mineral line. Let me guess, you think turrets need to be built on the edge of your base? No wonder you think it is "impossible". When you build a turret on the edge 50% of the coverage is completely wasted, remember prisms need to deploy over ground, they can't deploy units onto air space. There will be specific sections in the main and natural which should have more than enough coverage to deal with drops. The most likely positions will be near the middle of your main, and two covering the most critical spaces where the prism should be traveling. While the prism is playing Where's Wally to find a pocket of ground where it can actually deploy, its half dead and you have marines built from your barracks to finish it off and deal with the measly first warp in that will serve as a complete waste of resources and time for Protoss. Although I'm not sure why I'm wasting time on a lost cause, its obvious that you are going to ask me to spoon feed you where to place these turrets, or wait for a pro to show you without learning on your own. | ||
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