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On June 21 2013 20:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 20:38 Rabiator wrote:On June 21 2013 16:14 DarkLordOlli wrote:On June 21 2013 16:06 Rabiator wrote:On June 21 2013 15:37 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Watching HerO stream with the new prism speed right now. It's not gamebreaking but he sure gets in the wins - through macro. His third in PvT is earlier most notably as I predicted earlier in this thread. Lategame not directly affected in the slightest except that protoss will have a good lategame army a bit quicker.
As it should be, a player with his insane multitasking should have the tools to use it. Loving the change so far. I wonder if Protoss will ever use the Warp Prism just to drop off stuff for harrass instead of moving into an enemy base, unloading the four Zealots or Sentries and then warping in additional forces. Why not get three Warp Prisms, get into the enemy base, unload the 12 Zealots and then move the Warp Prisms out again OR keep one of them for warp ins and the other two go to other bases. The point of this would be to kill off a Queen or Spore Crawler in a quick blow while keeping the Prisms safe; even Terran bases (with the production facilities) could be wrecked by this ... at least cost him some addons which take time to rebuild. Committing 12 zealots and 3 warp prisms to something like that will lose you the game. Unless you're talking about lategame in which case why make 3 warp prisms when you can make one and warp in? Why will it lose you the game? The big idea is NOT to lose the Warp Prisms - by keeping it mobile - but to overwhelm (4 Zealots dont really "overwhelm" + Show Spoiler +=kill before the opponent can react properly a Spore or Queen) the core of the Zerg hatchery defense ... Queens and Spores. If there is just one Queen you could even pick up any remaining Zealots and drop them in another base like Terrans do with Hellbats. Warping in stuff takes time and having more than one Warp Prism lets you start the battle far faster. The whole point is to kill before the Zerglings have run back to their base to defend. Oh and obviously this is NOT a late game strategy but rather aimed at the really early game. You have to have a really good wall with more than just one cannon ... just to be safe. It only costs minerals and should be executed before the Zerg has any serious anti-air (Mutalisks, Hydralisks or larger amounts of Spore Crawlers). After this harrassment is done you can use the Warp Prisms as "mobile forward pylons" to warp in Zealot harrass squads and then get to a safe spot or you could use them as patrol vehicles to look for Overlords. The big part is that you do not use any gas for the units built. You don't have random 1800 minerals in the early game. And if you did, there's a million better ways to spend them. Like taking a third base for example. Or warping in units that will help you defend that third base. Or teching. Or making cannons to protect your third base. Or building more probes. Building a macro nexus to build even more probes. Building forges. Building 18 pylons. What have you. All of the things above will probably work out better for me. There's also a few sarcastic ones in there but I won't tell you which ones they are.
There is no way for Protoss to "harrass early" except with their specialized units (Oracle, Phoenix) for the job. This stops instantly when the Zerg builds Spore Crawlers and/or maybe a few extra Queens. If you go for the "dozen Zealots" you might be able to continue harrassing while keeping your units reasonably safe ... I have no idea, but maybe some smart Protoss will figure out a build for it ... like that "counter a CC first by building a hatchery in his natural" build which Catz brought up again + Show Spoiler +but which was really shown to us first by TLO in the TLOwnage at the end of beta
The whole point of my "train of thought" is to be open minded and think about new possibilities. It is not an "every day regular build", but in certain cituations if could work ... if the Zerg is
- greedy,
- likes Zerglings a lot,
- does not build preemptive Spore Crawlers and/or
- does not build lots of Queens.
The bottom line is: It could work because it is something new and thus unforeseen by the opponent ...
----
The most serious of your options is to get a third base up and running, but that will cost a lot of resources simply because you will need at least 800 minerals for a Nexus, a pylon (or two) and a cannon or two at that base, which will leave you with just 1000 minerals worth of Zealots to defend. Not a whole lot. As I said above the point is to potentially GET OUT AGAIN with all your forces without even needing a Mothership Core. The problem of the usual Warp Prism harrass is that you happily warp in tons of stuff and then lose it all if the Zerg simply has more stuff, because you only have space for 4 Zealots in your Warp Prism. If you build more than one Warp Prism you can use your force to attack AND do significant damage AND get out again.
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On June 21 2013 20:32 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 20:02 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2013 19:51 neptunusfisk wrote:On June 20 2013 07:26 ObliviousNA wrote:On June 20 2013 07:06 Akusta wrote:On June 20 2013 07:04 Brett wrote:On June 20 2013 07:02 GTPGlitch wrote:On June 20 2013 07:01 FXOTheoRy wrote:On June 20 2013 06:55 TheDwf wrote:On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote:
Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly. Yeah. Can't wait to have Zealots 24/7 rampaging my base because I can't finish a Prism with a Viking... speed medivacs same problem afaik barracks can't be put in medivacs "afaik warp prisms cant heal" Shall we continue the dumb comparison? Your argument is invalid. Which is better? 3+ heal to one unit? Or arbitrary instant troop deployment across the map from 30 production facilities? Nothing changes late-game from right now. 30 warpgates? Current protoss lategame would already have prism speed. If you're going to fear monger, at least suggest some reasonable balance concerns -_- Well, if the protoss is 60 supply down and spent all money on warpgates, why haven't the terran just walked with a few marauders and killed everything already? Ah the never ending stories of people warping in 30 zealots from a WP. Because the WP is what lost that game, really. It wasn't that the protoss got to sit there and get 4500 minerals in warpgates. Are we again designing the game with the idea of: If you let him get to the lategame you deserve to lose? That's kinda the entire problem WoL had.
If you let anyone sit there for so long that they feel confident that they can dump +3000 minerals into production facilities, you are playing the game wrong. You are better off trading out that army with yours so they need to invest in a new army. You gain nothing by sitting there with your maxed army, waiting.
So if the protoss has 30+ warpates, you are doing something wrong or you should have 30+ raxs(or 20 with 10 with reactors).
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On June 21 2013 21:50 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 20:32 Sissors wrote:On June 21 2013 20:02 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2013 19:51 neptunusfisk wrote:On June 20 2013 07:26 ObliviousNA wrote:On June 20 2013 07:06 Akusta wrote:On June 20 2013 07:04 Brett wrote:On June 20 2013 07:02 GTPGlitch wrote:On June 20 2013 07:01 FXOTheoRy wrote:On June 20 2013 06:55 TheDwf wrote:
[quote]
Yeah. Can't wait to have Zealots 24/7 rampaging my base because I can't finish a Prism with a Viking... speed medivacs same problem afaik barracks can't be put in medivacs "afaik warp prisms cant heal" Shall we continue the dumb comparison? Your argument is invalid. Which is better? 3+ heal to one unit? Or arbitrary instant troop deployment across the map from 30 production facilities? Nothing changes late-game from right now. 30 warpgates? Current protoss lategame would already have prism speed. If you're going to fear monger, at least suggest some reasonable balance concerns -_- Well, if the protoss is 60 supply down and spent all money on warpgates, why haven't the terran just walked with a few marauders and killed everything already? Ah the never ending stories of people warping in 30 zealots from a WP. Because the WP is what lost that game, really. It wasn't that the protoss got to sit there and get 4500 minerals in warpgates. Are we again designing the game with the idea of: If you let him get to the lategame you deserve to lose? That's kinda the entire problem WoL had. If you let anyone sit there for so long that they feel confident that they can dump +3000 minerals into production facilities, you are playing the game wrong. You are better off trading out that army with yours so they need to invest in a new army. You gain nothing by sitting there with your maxed army, waiting. So if the protoss has 30+ warpates, you are doing something wrong or you should have 30+ raxs(or 20 with 10 with reactors).
You pretty much said you deserve to lose if you allow the toss to get that far. How would it then possibly be a bad idea for protoss to try to get that far and sit happily with a maxed army, waiting? Then they aren't playing it wrong, but they are playing it correct. They have no reason to attack if they get a large advantage by waiting.
Of course you should also have many production facilities, but they can't really warp in directly to the enemies base.
(Btw this is of course all unrelated to this speed change).
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On June 21 2013 22:01 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 21:50 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2013 20:32 Sissors wrote:On June 21 2013 20:02 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2013 19:51 neptunusfisk wrote:On June 20 2013 07:26 ObliviousNA wrote:On June 20 2013 07:06 Akusta wrote:On June 20 2013 07:04 Brett wrote:On June 20 2013 07:02 GTPGlitch wrote:On June 20 2013 07:01 FXOTheoRy wrote:
[quote]
speed medivacs same problem afaik barracks can't be put in medivacs "afaik warp prisms cant heal" Shall we continue the dumb comparison? Your argument is invalid. Which is better? 3+ heal to one unit? Or arbitrary instant troop deployment across the map from 30 production facilities? Nothing changes late-game from right now. 30 warpgates? Current protoss lategame would already have prism speed. If you're going to fear monger, at least suggest some reasonable balance concerns -_- Well, if the protoss is 60 supply down and spent all money on warpgates, why haven't the terran just walked with a few marauders and killed everything already? Ah the never ending stories of people warping in 30 zealots from a WP. Because the WP is what lost that game, really. It wasn't that the protoss got to sit there and get 4500 minerals in warpgates. Are we again designing the game with the idea of: If you let him get to the lategame you deserve to lose? That's kinda the entire problem WoL had. If you let anyone sit there for so long that they feel confident that they can dump +3000 minerals into production facilities, you are playing the game wrong. You are better off trading out that army with yours so they need to invest in a new army. You gain nothing by sitting there with your maxed army, waiting. So if the protoss has 30+ warpates, you are doing something wrong or you should have 30+ raxs(or 20 with 10 with reactors). You pretty much said you deserve to lose if you allow the toss to get that far. How would it then possibly be a bad idea for protoss to try to get that far and sit happily with a maxed army, waiting? Then they aren't playing it wrong, but they are playing it correct. They have no reason to attack if they get a large advantage by waiting. Of course you should also have many production facilities, but they can't really warp in directly to the enemies base. (Btw this is of course all unrelated to this speed change).
The same goes for zerg as well. If a protoss lets a zerg get 12 macro hatches, 135 larva and a huge bank the same things happens. If a terran triple expands and then gets 10+ CCs and sacks half their workers, they just want to sit back and let the mule money come so they can make a bunch of super armies. We can make an endless number of late game situations that just shouldn't happen in normal game.
There is always going to be someone who is in a position where they don't want to attack, depending on the race, map or flow of the game. The same goes for Dota 2, when team gets to a point where they just want to soak in the gold. There are points when a protoss doesn't want to attack a terran in some games. That's not a game flaw, its just all games work when one side can get an advantage.
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On June 21 2013 22:01 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 21:50 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2013 20:32 Sissors wrote:On June 21 2013 20:02 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2013 19:51 neptunusfisk wrote:On June 20 2013 07:26 ObliviousNA wrote:On June 20 2013 07:06 Akusta wrote:On June 20 2013 07:04 Brett wrote:On June 20 2013 07:02 GTPGlitch wrote:On June 20 2013 07:01 FXOTheoRy wrote:
[quote]
speed medivacs same problem afaik barracks can't be put in medivacs "afaik warp prisms cant heal" Shall we continue the dumb comparison? Your argument is invalid. Which is better? 3+ heal to one unit? Or arbitrary instant troop deployment across the map from 30 production facilities? Nothing changes late-game from right now. 30 warpgates? Current protoss lategame would already have prism speed. If you're going to fear monger, at least suggest some reasonable balance concerns -_- Well, if the protoss is 60 supply down and spent all money on warpgates, why haven't the terran just walked with a few marauders and killed everything already? Ah the never ending stories of people warping in 30 zealots from a WP. Because the WP is what lost that game, really. It wasn't that the protoss got to sit there and get 4500 minerals in warpgates. Are we again designing the game with the idea of: If you let him get to the lategame you deserve to lose? That's kinda the entire problem WoL had. If you let anyone sit there for so long that they feel confident that they can dump +3000 minerals into production facilities, you are playing the game wrong. You are better off trading out that army with yours so they need to invest in a new army. You gain nothing by sitting there with your maxed army, waiting. So if the protoss has 30+ warpates, you are doing something wrong or you should have 30+ raxs(or 20 with 10 with reactors). You pretty much said you deserve to lose if you allow the toss to get that far. How would it then possibly be a bad idea for protoss to try to get that far and sit happily with a maxed army, waiting? Then they aren't playing it wrong, but they are playing it correct. They have no reason to attack if they get a large advantage by waiting. Of course you should also have many production facilities, but they can't really warp in directly to the enemies base. (Btw this is of course all unrelated to this speed change).
Yes I am surprised anyone still think that the "don't let him get there"-concept is good design. As you point it rewards one player for never attacking throughout the entire game which makes the game incredibly boring.
While each race indeed should have different advantages and disadvantages late game, neither race must be superior in terms of mobility ,cost efficiency and production mechancis at the same time.
There is always going to be someone who is in a position where they don't want to attack, depending on the race, map or flow of the game.
Yes but it should be period/timing based. Aka until I get that tech out I don't wanna attack. When I have got my tech out my opponent shouldn't be incentivied to attack untill his economy kicks in or he gets a counter-attack or something like that.
This creates a dynamic game.
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On June 21 2013 22:18 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 22:01 Sissors wrote:On June 21 2013 21:50 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2013 20:32 Sissors wrote:On June 21 2013 20:02 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2013 19:51 neptunusfisk wrote:On June 20 2013 07:26 ObliviousNA wrote:On June 20 2013 07:06 Akusta wrote:On June 20 2013 07:04 Brett wrote:On June 20 2013 07:02 GTPGlitch wrote:
[quote]
afaik barracks can't be put in medivacs "afaik warp prisms cant heal" Shall we continue the dumb comparison? Your argument is invalid. Which is better? 3+ heal to one unit? Or arbitrary instant troop deployment across the map from 30 production facilities? Nothing changes late-game from right now. 30 warpgates? Current protoss lategame would already have prism speed. If you're going to fear monger, at least suggest some reasonable balance concerns -_- Well, if the protoss is 60 supply down and spent all money on warpgates, why haven't the terran just walked with a few marauders and killed everything already? Ah the never ending stories of people warping in 30 zealots from a WP. Because the WP is what lost that game, really. It wasn't that the protoss got to sit there and get 4500 minerals in warpgates. Are we again designing the game with the idea of: If you let him get to the lategame you deserve to lose? That's kinda the entire problem WoL had. If you let anyone sit there for so long that they feel confident that they can dump +3000 minerals into production facilities, you are playing the game wrong. You are better off trading out that army with yours so they need to invest in a new army. You gain nothing by sitting there with your maxed army, waiting. So if the protoss has 30+ warpates, you are doing something wrong or you should have 30+ raxs(or 20 with 10 with reactors). You pretty much said you deserve to lose if you allow the toss to get that far. How would it then possibly be a bad idea for protoss to try to get that far and sit happily with a maxed army, waiting? Then they aren't playing it wrong, but they are playing it correct. They have no reason to attack if they get a large advantage by waiting. Of course you should also have many production facilities, but they can't really warp in directly to the enemies base. (Btw this is of course all unrelated to this speed change). Yes I am surprised anyone still think that the "don't let him get there"-concept is good design. As you point it rewards one player for never attacking throughout the entire game which makes the game incredibly boring. While each race indeed should have different advantages and disadvantages late game, neither race must be superior in terms of mobility ,cost efficiency and production mechancis at the same time.
Trading out armies is a critical and basic part of the game design and balance. Remaxing and trading efficiently are the keys to playing SC2. A lot of the stories of "30 zealots being warped" in are a product of people playing to passively once they get maxed. It is similar if you see someone blind double expand and then you don't attack them and just hope it will work out.
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On June 21 2013 22:01 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 21:50 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2013 20:32 Sissors wrote:On June 21 2013 20:02 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2013 19:51 neptunusfisk wrote:On June 20 2013 07:26 ObliviousNA wrote:On June 20 2013 07:06 Akusta wrote:On June 20 2013 07:04 Brett wrote:On June 20 2013 07:02 GTPGlitch wrote:On June 20 2013 07:01 FXOTheoRy wrote:
[quote]
speed medivacs same problem afaik barracks can't be put in medivacs "afaik warp prisms cant heal" Shall we continue the dumb comparison? Your argument is invalid. Which is better? 3+ heal to one unit? Or arbitrary instant troop deployment across the map from 30 production facilities? Nothing changes late-game from right now. 30 warpgates? Current protoss lategame would already have prism speed. If you're going to fear monger, at least suggest some reasonable balance concerns -_- Well, if the protoss is 60 supply down and spent all money on warpgates, why haven't the terran just walked with a few marauders and killed everything already? Ah the never ending stories of people warping in 30 zealots from a WP. Because the WP is what lost that game, really. It wasn't that the protoss got to sit there and get 4500 minerals in warpgates. Are we again designing the game with the idea of: If you let him get to the lategame you deserve to lose? That's kinda the entire problem WoL had. If you let anyone sit there for so long that they feel confident that they can dump +3000 minerals into production facilities, you are playing the game wrong. You are better off trading out that army with yours so they need to invest in a new army. You gain nothing by sitting there with your maxed army, waiting. So if the protoss has 30+ warpates, you are doing something wrong or you should have 30+ raxs(or 20 with 10 with reactors). You pretty much said you deserve to lose if you allow the toss to get that far. How would it then possibly be a bad idea for protoss to try to get that far and sit happily with a maxed army, waiting? Then they aren't playing it wrong, but they are playing it correct. They have no reason to attack if they get a large advantage by waiting. Of course you should also have many production facilities, but they can't really warp in directly to the enemies base. (Btw this is of course all unrelated to this speed change).
This whole thread is getting entirely too silly.
But lets look at it, If a protoss can warp in 30 zealots (in the terrans base) thats 60 supply and 3000 minerals not being used till the warp in. So a protoss at 3000 minerals and 140 supply not to mention the cost of getting 30 warp gates just goes to show the game is way in the late game. At this point it would generally be safe to assume the terran is on 200/200 supply because frankly if the terran isn't at 200/200 and the protoss is at 140 supply with a bank of 3000 and 30 gates, the terran had probabaly already lost earlier on in the game and this is just a killing blow. So assuming the game isnt over we can say the terran has a close to 200/200 army either back home or out on the field. If the army is back at home the terran can go defend it with a 200/200 army vs 60 supply warp in of non aoe units. Or if the terran is out on the field they can basetrade and lift where the terran army will end up facing against a 140/200 protoss army.
This whole thing is off topic and frankly ridiculous. It also has nothing to do with an upgrade to the warp prisms base speed.
By the way some information about vikings vs phase mode.
So in this scenario the terran catches a warp prism in phase mode and uses a viking to attack it. Upon the viking shooting at the phased prism the protoss reacts immediately un-phases and moves away.
If the viking is attack moved, the viking gets 2 free shots on the warp prism before it's out of range. (pre buff it was 3 shots)
If the viking is micro'd (Fires on the prism then moves towards it etc) The viking can get 4 shots before it's out of range. (pre buff it was 5 shots)
It takes 8 shots for 1 viking to kill a warp prism. So 2 vikings micro'd well would almost guarentee the warp prism doesn't escape.
Onto marines
Stimmed marines are faster then the "buffed warp prism". A stimmed marine has 10.5 dps (prisms have 100 shields 100 hull and start without armour).
1 stimmed marine kills a prism in 19.4 seconds (ingame)
2 stimmed marines kills a prism in 9.5 seconds
3 stimmed marines kills a prism in 6.3 seconds
4 stimmed marines kills a prism in 4.76 seconds
5 stimmed marines kills a prism in 3.8 seconds
All the above numbers vary based on upgrades.
Missile turrets:
http://i.imgur.com/Vvvucet.jpg
Scenario A (Blue) the warp prism goes into missile range then moves out. the warp prism was left with 56 hull.
Scenario B (Green) The warp prism fly's past the missile turret and exit's the other side, again the warp prism is left with 56 hull.
56 hull means 2 viking shots would finish it off (until shields regen)
I should probabaly just add this too (i posted it earlier in the thread):
A speed comparison based on units you're already used to seeing.
Medivac: 2.5
Old prism: 2.5
Banshees: 2.75
NEW PRISM: 2.953
Oracle: 3.375
Speed prism: 3.375
Mutalisk: 4.0
Phoenix: 4.25
Medivac (Boosted) : 4.25
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If you have 3000 extra mins to warp in zealots in my base, I'm gonna assume that you have already researched the prism speed upgrade, so I can't really see how the patch makes that whole situation really much worse to handle than before ;D
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On June 21 2013 22:28 Archybaldie wrote:
This whole thread is getting entirely too silly.
You could have just left it at that. I only check this thread to laugh at the fact that people are still complaining.
Schadenfreude rocks.
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On June 21 2013 10:36 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 09:58 Cyro wrote:On June 21 2013 09:47 GolemMadness wrote:On June 21 2013 09:43 usethis2 wrote:On June 20 2013 19:08 tropical wrote:
Sometimes, especially around the time a new balance patch is released, this community makes me very, very sad. How about we just see how it play's out? I am quit sure it won't break PvT/TvP.
Even though I have no quarrel with this specific patch, but your suggestion is disingenuous. People flip out over balance changes because once introduced they rarely are revoked. (exception: bunkers) "Why not see how it plays out," while a valid point, but talking as if Blizzard will quickly change it back once proved broken is not an honest response. Again, I don't think this patch is ground-breaking. Hopefully this will help out toss to play more "normal" games with consistency instead of their off-putting cheeses. When has a balance change been so bad that it's needed to be revoked? Queens. Does anyone actually think that queens having 5 range instead of 3 is an issue right now?
I don't think so, but that change ruined Wings.
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Bisutopia19152 Posts
I can't believe everyone is overlooking the impact this will have in 4v4's.
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On June 21 2013 22:01 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 21:50 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2013 20:32 Sissors wrote:On June 21 2013 20:02 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2013 19:51 neptunusfisk wrote:On June 20 2013 07:26 ObliviousNA wrote:On June 20 2013 07:06 Akusta wrote:On June 20 2013 07:04 Brett wrote:On June 20 2013 07:02 GTPGlitch wrote:On June 20 2013 07:01 FXOTheoRy wrote:
[quote]
speed medivacs same problem afaik barracks can't be put in medivacs "afaik warp prisms cant heal" Shall we continue the dumb comparison? Your argument is invalid. Which is better? 3+ heal to one unit? Or arbitrary instant troop deployment across the map from 30 production facilities? Nothing changes late-game from right now. 30 warpgates? Current protoss lategame would already have prism speed. If you're going to fear monger, at least suggest some reasonable balance concerns -_- Well, if the protoss is 60 supply down and spent all money on warpgates, why haven't the terran just walked with a few marauders and killed everything already? Ah the never ending stories of people warping in 30 zealots from a WP. Because the WP is what lost that game, really. It wasn't that the protoss got to sit there and get 4500 minerals in warpgates. Are we again designing the game with the idea of: If you let him get to the lategame you deserve to lose? That's kinda the entire problem WoL had. If you let anyone sit there for so long that they feel confident that they can dump +3000 minerals into production facilities, you are playing the game wrong. You are better off trading out that army with yours so they need to invest in a new army. You gain nothing by sitting there with your maxed army, waiting. So if the protoss has 30+ warpates, you are doing something wrong or you should have 30+ raxs(or 20 with 10 with reactors). You pretty much said you deserve to lose if you allow the toss to get that far. How would it then possibly be a bad idea for protoss to try to get that far and sit happily with a maxed army, waiting? Then they aren't playing it wrong, but they are playing it correct. They have no reason to attack if they get a large advantage by waiting. Of course you should also have many production facilities, but they can't really warp in directly to the enemies base. (Btw this is of course all unrelated to this speed change).
Ok, I'll say it: if you let a protoss player have 5000 spare minerals and 60 free supply for several in game minutes and then lose to 30 zealots, you deserve to lose.
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On June 21 2013 23:02 BisuDagger wrote:
I can't believe everyone is overlooking the impact this will have in 4v4's.
Along with the impact it will have on bronze to midmasters...oh wait.
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On June 21 2013 22:22 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 22:18 Hider wrote:On June 21 2013 22:01 Sissors wrote:On June 21 2013 21:50 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2013 20:32 Sissors wrote:On June 21 2013 20:02 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2013 19:51 neptunusfisk wrote:On June 20 2013 07:26 ObliviousNA wrote:On June 20 2013 07:06 Akusta wrote:On June 20 2013 07:04 Brett wrote:
[quote]
"afaik warp prisms cant heal"
Shall we continue the dumb comparison? Your argument is invalid. Which is better? 3+ heal to one unit? Or arbitrary instant troop deployment across the map from 30 production facilities? Nothing changes late-game from right now. 30 warpgates? Current protoss lategame would already have prism speed. If you're going to fear monger, at least suggest some reasonable balance concerns -_- Well, if the protoss is 60 supply down and spent all money on warpgates, why haven't the terran just walked with a few marauders and killed everything already? Ah the never ending stories of people warping in 30 zealots from a WP. Because the WP is what lost that game, really. It wasn't that the protoss got to sit there and get 4500 minerals in warpgates. Are we again designing the game with the idea of: If you let him get to the lategame you deserve to lose? That's kinda the entire problem WoL had. If you let anyone sit there for so long that they feel confident that they can dump +3000 minerals into production facilities, you are playing the game wrong. You are better off trading out that army with yours so they need to invest in a new army. You gain nothing by sitting there with your maxed army, waiting. So if the protoss has 30+ warpates, you are doing something wrong or you should have 30+ raxs(or 20 with 10 with reactors). You pretty much said you deserve to lose if you allow the toss to get that far. How would it then possibly be a bad idea for protoss to try to get that far and sit happily with a maxed army, waiting? Then they aren't playing it wrong, but they are playing it correct. They have no reason to attack if they get a large advantage by waiting. Of course you should also have many production facilities, but they can't really warp in directly to the enemies base. (Btw this is of course all unrelated to this speed change). Yes I am surprised anyone still think that the "don't let him get there"-concept is good design. As you point it rewards one player for never attacking throughout the entire game which makes the game incredibly boring. While each race indeed should have different advantages and disadvantages late game, neither race must be superior in terms of mobility ,cost efficiency and production mechancis at the same time. Trading out armies is a critical and basic part of the game design and balance. Remaxing and trading efficiently are the keys to playing SC2. A lot of the stories of "30 zealots being warped" in are a product of people playing to passively once they get maxed. It is similar if you see someone blind double expand and then you don't attack them and just hope it will work out.
No, the 30 zealot story can never be an example of a player playing too passively as that implies that the protoss always wins if he for some reason gets too late game with a bank. It can only be an excuse if the opposing player is a lot behind which is more likely to occur when you are playing overaggressively than too passively. If a terran player is playing passively he will be able to afford to mass OC's and sack scvs, which means he will/should always rape the opposing players army, which shouldn't make 30 zealot warp in that problematic.
So I don't think the "never let him get there" principle is that relevant in Sc2, but it should be something that game designers should have in in mind when designing units (try to avoid that from being implemented). If anything it might be relevant due to protoss micro being easier than terran micro, however that is a design issue not related to warp tech.
Instead, I think the main problem with Sc2 is that the mobility of the protoss deathball is too high which makes army trading quite inefficient (in many situations). If trading armies/harassing were easier I don't think it would be that big of a problem. In pro games we are actually seing that the turtle style really isn't that much of an issue as players are so good at setting them self up in a position to army trade which reduces the warp tech problem. However, I believe that the game should be fun for lower level players as well, and for them army trading is simply too difficult.
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FINALLY ! Hope Protoss is going to do smth now ...
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On June 21 2013 23:29 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 22:22 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2013 22:18 Hider wrote:On June 21 2013 22:01 Sissors wrote:On June 21 2013 21:50 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2013 20:32 Sissors wrote:On June 21 2013 20:02 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2013 19:51 neptunusfisk wrote:On June 20 2013 07:26 ObliviousNA wrote:On June 20 2013 07:06 Akusta wrote:
[quote]
Your argument is invalid. Which is better? 3+ heal to one unit? Or arbitrary instant troop deployment across the map from 30 production facilities?
Nothing changes late-game from right now. 30 warpgates? Current protoss lategame would already have prism speed. If you're going to fear monger, at least suggest some reasonable balance concerns -_- Well, if the protoss is 60 supply down and spent all money on warpgates, why haven't the terran just walked with a few marauders and killed everything already? Ah the never ending stories of people warping in 30 zealots from a WP. Because the WP is what lost that game, really. It wasn't that the protoss got to sit there and get 4500 minerals in warpgates. Are we again designing the game with the idea of: If you let him get to the lategame you deserve to lose? That's kinda the entire problem WoL had. If you let anyone sit there for so long that they feel confident that they can dump +3000 minerals into production facilities, you are playing the game wrong. You are better off trading out that army with yours so they need to invest in a new army. You gain nothing by sitting there with your maxed army, waiting. So if the protoss has 30+ warpates, you are doing something wrong or you should have 30+ raxs(or 20 with 10 with reactors). You pretty much said you deserve to lose if you allow the toss to get that far. How would it then possibly be a bad idea for protoss to try to get that far and sit happily with a maxed army, waiting? Then they aren't playing it wrong, but they are playing it correct. They have no reason to attack if they get a large advantage by waiting. Of course you should also have many production facilities, but they can't really warp in directly to the enemies base. (Btw this is of course all unrelated to this speed change). Yes I am surprised anyone still think that the "don't let him get there"-concept is good design. As you point it rewards one player for never attacking throughout the entire game which makes the game incredibly boring. While each race indeed should have different advantages and disadvantages late game, neither race must be superior in terms of mobility ,cost efficiency and production mechancis at the same time. Trading out armies is a critical and basic part of the game design and balance. Remaxing and trading efficiently are the keys to playing SC2. A lot of the stories of "30 zealots being warped" in are a product of people playing to passively once they get maxed. It is similar if you see someone blind double expand and then you don't attack them and just hope it will work out. No, the 30 zealot story can never be an example of a player playing too passively as that implies that the protoss always wins if he for some reason gets too late game with a bank. It can only be an excuse if the opposing player is a lot behind which is more likely to occur when you are playing overaggressively than too passively. If a terran player is playing passively he will be able to afford to mass OC's and sack scvs, which means he will/should always rape the opposing players army, which shouldn't make 30 zealot warp in that problematic. So I don't think the "never let him get there" principle is that relevant in Sc2, but it should be something that game designers should have in in mind when designing units (try to avoid that from being implemented). If anything it might be relevant due to protoss micro being easier than terran micro, however that is a design issue not related to warp tech. Instead, I think the main problem with Sc2 is that the mobility of the protoss deathball is too high which makes army trading quite inefficient (in many situations). If trading armies/harassing were easier I don't think it would be that big of a problem. In pro games we are actually seing that the turtle style really isn't that much of an issue as players are so good at setting them self up in a position to army trade which reduces the warp tech problem. However, I believe that the game should be fun for lower level players as well, and for them army trading is simply too difficult.
Well my response to that is get better at it. I don't do very well against maxed zerg with my protoss army, especially if I have to use storms. I am four levels of terrible and those fights are really stressful and discouraging, but I don't want them to change a thing. If some terran players are afraid of attacking the late game protoss army, I understand, but that a problem they need to look at on their own.
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On June 21 2013 20:14 Nimix wrote:Maybe.. just maybe.. THEY FIXED THE SOUND LOOP BUG? Could it be?? or maybe the technology isn't there yet..
lol... this bug is so annoying^^
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Bisutopia19152 Posts
On June 22 2013 00:01 sage_francis wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 20:14 Nimix wrote:Major change, no wonder this patch weights 50 MB. Maybe.. just maybe.. THEY FIXED THE SOUND LOOP BUG? Could it be?? or maybe the technology isn't there yet.. lol... this bug is so annoying^^
That ruined the campaign for me (among other things). Still getting it too 
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On June 21 2013 23:29 Hider wrote:
Instead, I think the main problem with Sc2 is that the mobility of the protoss deathball is too high
Okaaay.. I'm not sure if you're trolling or not.
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Northern Ireland23732 Posts
On June 22 2013 00:19 neptunusfisk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 23:29 Hider wrote:
Instead, I think the main problem with Sc2 is that the mobility of the protoss deathball is too high
Okaaay.. I'm not sure if you're trolling or not.
A problem with the deathball is that movement speeds are a bit too uniform. Would love to have way slower Collosus, and faster speedlots, that way things would fan out naturally a bit and reward players who can control an army with a more divergent mix of move speeds.
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EPT
