EPT[Now live] New Patch - Warp Prism buff - Page 37
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Big-t
Austria1351 Posts
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Daswollvieh
5553 Posts
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Hellbat
223 Posts
On June 21 2013 02:45 Wingblade wrote: Meanwhile in tournaments, PvT featured something like a 35 percent winrate in Europe. Oh and there was 1 Protoss top 8 in DH, who won off the back of his one PvZ all-in, and played a single Terran who only had good TvZ(though it seems like every Terran has good TvZ nowadays). Also, nice logical fallacy = argument from authority. The winrate in professional starcraft for PvT is actually quite even, with a slight protoss favor. Here is the winrates for may No need to specifically look at europe as a whole. We need to look at the whole scene to get a better person. Also, just stating that something is a "logical fallacy" doesn't mean it's not correct. It's something I notice a lot on the internet (especially reddit / internet atheists) that love to spout these catch-phrases as if invoking one or two words completely invalidates the argument. His mentioning of the fact that the dwf is GM is relevant because that itself lends to the fact that he is skilled enough to be in gm and have enough knowledge of the match-up (in this case PvT) to even compete with the pros on ladder. | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
On June 21 2013 14:51 BronzeKnee wrote: Based on... what? Nothing? Because Aliguac shows Terran having a win rate of 53% versus Protoss and 54.4% versus Zerg. In fact, since HOTS was released, they haven't been below 50% in either indicator. http://aligulac.com/reports/ In fact, all of the same indicators that people like Ver pointed to (in his Lings of Liberty thread) that showed how good Zerg was at the end of WOL (despite Terran dominating the first 3/4's of the game) now point to Terran doing the best. Ok, but how much of that is because of a select few terrans like Flash and Innovation, or players like MVP and MMA beating a bunch of foreigners? When you look at the scene in Korea: Zerg always the most represented in GSL/OSL, including representing 50% of the last GSL Ro8, and after placement matches, 4 of the top 6 5 straight zerg winners in GSL Flash and Innovation are the only terrans in the top 10 of most wins in Proleague (only 4 in the top 20 and 6 in the top 30) So yes, a few terrans are doing well, but to say that as a race they're the most successful is ridiculous. It's like in Brood War when Flash was winning everything and people were saying that terran was OP, but if it weren't for him, zerg would have won something like 75% of the Starleagues in that time period. | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
On June 21 2013 15:28 GolemMadness wrote: Ok, but how much of that is because of a select few terrans like Flash and Innovation, or players like MVP and MMA beating a bunch of foreigners? When you look at the scene in Korea: Zerg always the most represented in GSL/OSL, including representing 50% of the last GSL Ro8, and after placement matches, 4 of the top 6 5 straight zerg winners in GSL Flash and Innovation are the only terrans in the top 10 of most wins in Proleague (only 4 in the top 20 and 6 in the top 30) So yes, a few terrans are doing well, but to say that as a race they're the most successful is ridiculous. It's like in Brood War when Flash was winning everything and people were saying that terran was OP, but if it weren't for him, zerg would have won something like 75% of the Starleagues in that time period. The problem is not so about balance but about what game do we want. Do we want a fast game with lot of action everywhere, where player's skill shine in multitasking and macroing, are do we want a turtling game where the difference between a good and a bad player is about spotting drops and defending them ? | ||
Olli
Austria24422 Posts
As it should be, a player with his insane multitasking should have the tools to use it. Loving the change so far. | ||
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woreyour
582 Posts
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On June 21 2013 15:37 DarkLordOlli wrote: Watching HerO stream with the new prism speed right now. It's not gamebreaking but he sure gets in the wins - through macro. His third in PvT is earlier most notably as I predicted earlier in this thread. Lategame not directly affected in the slightest except that protoss will have a good lategame army a bit quicker. As it should be, a player with his insane multitasking should have the tools to use it. Loving the change so far. I wonder if Protoss will ever use the Warp Prism just to drop off stuff for harrass instead of moving into an enemy base, unloading the four Zealots or Sentries and then warping in additional forces. Why not get three Warp Prisms, get into the enemy base, unload the 12 Zealots and then move the Warp Prisms out again OR keep one of them for warp ins and the other two go to other bases. The point of this would be to kill off a Queen or Spore Crawler in a quick blow while keeping the Prisms safe; even Terran bases (with the production facilities) could be wrecked by this ... at least cost him some addons which take time to rebuild. | ||
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On June 21 2013 16:06 Rabiator wrote: I wonder if Protoss will ever use the Warp Prism just to drop off stuff for harrass instead of moving into an enemy base, unloading the four Zealots or Sentries and then warping in additional forces. Why not get three Warp Prisms, get into the enemy base, unload the 12 Zealots and then move the Warp Prisms out again OR keep one of them for warp ins and the other two go to other bases. The point of this would be to kill off a Queen or Spore Crawler in a quick blow while keeping the Prisms safe; even Terran bases (with the production facilities) could be wrecked by this ... at least cost him some addons which take time to rebuild. Committing 12 zealots and 3 warp prisms to something like that will lose you the game. Unless you're talking about lategame in which case why make 3 warp prisms when you can make one and warp in? | ||
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Taefox
1533 Posts
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
On June 21 2013 04:06 Plansix wrote: And I am sure if I spent a week learning some dumb hellbat all in, I could drop my way to the same level I am right now. What is your point? That wasn't aimed at you, don't get all antsy about it, this wasn't me saying toss was op. | ||
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AxionSteel
United States7754 Posts
On June 21 2013 15:28 Hellbat wrote: The winrate in professional starcraft for PvT is actually quite even, with a slight protoss favor. Here is the winrates for may No need to specifically look at europe as a whole. We need to look at the whole scene to get a better person. Also, just stating that something is a "logical fallacy" doesn't mean it's not correct. It's something I notice a lot on the internet (especially reddit / internet atheists) that love to spout these catch-phrases as if invoking one or two words completely invalidates the argument. His mentioning of the fact that the dwf is GM is relevant because that itself lends to the fact that he is skilled enough to be in gm and have enough knowledge of the match-up (in this case PvT) to even compete with the pros on ladder. When Terran couldn't win ANYTHING outside of Korea for much of WoL, people just laughed it off saying Foreign terrans sucked and only the highest level of competition matters (Korea). So having dealt with that for years, I dunno why EU Challenger league should have any relevance in balance discussions. However, Not saying it's going to be a game breaking patch or anything, was just watching HerO play a PvP and there were warp prisms flying around everywhere and basically every protoss unit in the game was made, looked pretty fun to watch! | ||
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FetTerBender
Germany1393 Posts
On June 21 2013 14:51 Big-t wrote: Yes! Perhaps my ZvP win rate won´t be around 80% anymore. Trust me, the 10pool wont be affected. ;-) | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On June 21 2013 15:37 DarkLordOlli wrote: Watching HerO stream with the new prism speed right now. It's not gamebreaking but he sure gets in the wins - through macro. His third in PvT is earlier most notably as I predicted earlier in this thread. Lategame not directly affected in the slightest except that protoss will have a good lategame army a bit quicker. As it should be, a player with his insane multitasking should have the tools to use it. Loving the change so far. I predicted the same. Before the patch, protoss was the strongest in the early game, and in the endgame. Terran shined in the midgame. What blizzard did with this buff, is give protoss a stronger midgame, and even a stronger early game (some prism allins are really strong). I really wonder how terrans will adapt to this. To me this feels exactly like the queenbuff. People don't realise yet how big it is, but in 2 weeks you will understand  .And if you read people's comments about terran, you would think they are doing really well. Well, only flash and innovation are really doing well. Other terrans are doing okay, but not so good that they can handle a buff to the other races or a nerf on their own race. 1 change can bring us back to wol terran, and we know how that ended. It's strange how history repeats itself: protoss and zerg players whine about terran --> blizzard nerfs terran / buffs the other races --> WOL becomes boring and the map is painted red (zerg). | ||
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Drake
Germany6146 Posts
On June 21 2013 15:28 Hellbat wrote: The winrate in professional starcraft for PvT is actually quite even, with a slight protoss favor. Here is the winrates for may No need to specifically look at europe as a whole. We need to look at the whole scene to get a better person. Also, just stating that something is a "logical fallacy" doesn't mean it's not correct. It's something I notice a lot on the internet (especially reddit / internet atheists) that love to spout these catch-phrases as if invoking one or two words completely invalidates the argument. His mentioning of the fact that the dwf is GM is relevant because that itself lends to the fact that he is skilled enough to be in gm and have enough knowledge of the match-up (in this case PvT) to even compete with the pros on ladder. jaeh with p wins in lower rounds winning nothing from ro8 isnt quite "even" | ||
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SoniC_eu
Denmark1008 Posts
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Sinedd
Poland7052 Posts
On June 21 2013 16:45 FetTerBender wrote: Trust me, the 10pool wont be affected. ;-) BUUUUURN !!! | ||
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MonkSEA
Australia1227 Posts
On June 21 2013 17:07 Snowbear wrote: I predicted the same. Before the patch, protoss was the strongest in the early game, and in the endgame. Terran shined in the midgame. What blizzard did with this buff, is give protoss a stronger midgame, and even a stronger early game (some prism allins are really strong). I really wonder how terrans will adapt to this. To me this feels exactly like the queenbuff. People don't realise yet how big it is, but in 2 weeks you will understand .And if you read people's comments about terran, you would think they are doing really well. Well, only flash and innovation are really doing well. Other terrans are doing okay, but not so good that they can handle a buff to the other races or a nerf on their own race. 1 change can bring us back to wol terran, and we know how that ended. It's strange how history repeats itself: protoss and zerg players whine about terran --> blizzard nerfs terran / buffs the other races --> WOL becomes boring and the map is painted red (zerg). If anything it's going to allow for a better game once the warp prism based all-ins are figured out as late game why should you be allowed as Zerg to not worry about harassment from a Protoss past DT's that walk across the map? You have to defend versus drops against Terran late game and Zerg seem to be doing fine. Terran just need to make turrets and why not bunkers like in TvT versus hellbat drops? I mean.. if it's doable in one matchup, surely it's doable in two? I think as most of the people who're balance whining doesn't realize that the warp prism isn't the be all and end all, prisms die fast. "A viking can't catch a prism!" well it sure can kill it if the player is paying attention and micros accordingly. Some would say it's an easier defending, or no different then a speedvac drop in TvT. | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On June 21 2013 17:26 MonkSEA wrote: If anything it's going to allow for a better game once the warp prism based all-ins are figured out as late game why should you be allowed as Zerg to not worry about harassment from a Protoss past DT's that walk across the map? You have to defend versus drops against Terran late game and Zerg seem to be doing fine. Terran just need to make turrets and why not bunkers like in TvT versus hellbat drops? I mean.. if it's doable in one matchup, surely it's doable in two? I think as most of the people who're balance whining doesn't realize that the warp prism isn't the be all and end all, prisms die fast. "A viking can't catch a prism!" well it sure can kill it if the player is paying attention and micros accordingly. Some would say it's an easier defending, or no different then a speedvac drop in TvT. The problem is that protoss is stronger in the endgame. Atm the tvp winrates are pretty close to 50%. Now let all these terrans put more army and money in defense. Their midgame push will be weaker. Toss can warpin where they want, terran can't attack (hi nexus canon). The game WILL go into lategame. And another problem are upgrades: they cost the same amount for both races, BUT protoss can crono the upgrades, so a protoss should always be ahead in upgrades. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On June 21 2013 17:26 MonkSEA wrote: If anything it's going to allow for a better game once the warp prism based all-ins are figured out as late game why should you be allowed as Zerg to not worry about harassment from a Protoss past DT's that walk across the map? This change has no effect whatsoever on the late game. You have to defend versus drops against Terran late game and Zerg seem to be doing fine. Terran just need to make turrets and why not bunkers like in TvT versus hellbat drops? I mean.. if it's doable in one matchup, surely it's doable in two? Sorry but that makes no sense. That it is fine to do it in one matchup doesn't automatically mean it would be good in another matchup. Protos does forge FE against zerg, so it also fine to do it in a PvP? I think as most of the people who're balance whining doesn't realize that the warp prism isn't the be all and end all, prisms die fast. "A viking can't catch a prism!" well it sure can kill it if the player is paying attention and micros accordingly. Some would say it's an easier defending, or no different then a speedvac drop in TvT. You can micro and pay attention what you want, unless the toss player is really sleeping or managed to get it in a corner you won't kill it with a viking, no matter how much you micro. Anyway personally I like the idea behind the increase in warp prism speed, but at the same time I am afraid it will lead to even more toss all-ins. Especially something like a sentry drop on high ground, forcefield ramp -> warp in units will become much stronger with higher warp prism speed. So it is yet another all-in you have to prepare for. | ||
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