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On June 20 2013 14:44 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 14:35 00higgo wrote:On June 20 2013 14:19 Survivor61316 wrote:On June 20 2013 13:59 00higgo wrote:Well there is a lot of Terrans that don't like the idea of being dropped. has to be a good change  Lol what a foolish post. Ill give you a hint man, in TVTs, the other Terran can, wait for it, DROP YOU! Its not getting dropped on thats our problem, its giving such a better tool for protoss to do it specifically. And as far as a unit for getting army into your opponents base, the warp prism is much better than the medivac, as one warp prism can easily let 10+ zealots go into the base in a matter of seconds. It would take at least 3 medivacs to match that, which would be a serious commitment, and would be considered a doom drop. Lol chill dude, you act like this will be the single most imba thing in the game. Defend well and scout bro, and no one is warping 10 zel untill late game unless they are really bad. you should just learn how to deal with it like everyone had to with medivac speed or hellbats in general. Yeahh, just learn how to deal with it huh? Bc thats good advice.. And are you kidding me, "scout bro"?? Scout what? A robo? Bc that couldnt be used for anything else it a PvT..oh wait. So now we're on defend well..with what? Just leave 10-15 supply at each base in case zlot warp ins come? Not exactly a good solution. We dont have a one size fits all static defense like the photon cannon, or photon overcharge for that matter.
By scout i mean have good map vision across map and around your base, and yeah just deal with it.
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On June 20 2013 13:32 _Search_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 11:26 Wombat_NI wrote:On June 20 2013 11:06 _Search_ wrote:
I'm not saying this change is going to ruin the game, but it is another totally idiotic Blizzard patch to rival such missteps as the snipe nerf or strike cannons nerf.
They think this is going to give Protoss more harassment in PvT. All it will do is make the gap between PvZ even wider and drive even more Zergs out of major tournaments. The recent weeks of WCS have shown Zergs falling off in record numbers. Literally only one has made it from Challenger to Premier in WCS America so far, and WCS Korea is not going well for them either.
Blizzard has to get their shit together. These joke patches are an insult to people who actually play the game. How much of that is due to Warp Prisms? Protoss don't even have the cash to really pump into big warpin harassment in the period of the game where the passive speed boost will be applying. In the lategame, Protoss have the money to invest in WPs upgrade which is even faster than the current change is proposing. None but we all know the resurgence of immortal/sentry is just around the corner. It was never fixed in WoL and is still completely broken. It starts with Warp Prism harass that is already completely unpreventable (note: this is Blizzard's idea of a "dynamic" game. Harassment that literally cannot be defended because Zerg isn't allowed to kill air units). Personally I think this buff changes nothing, just like most patches by Blizzard, including the brain-dead spore crawler buff. If anything Blizzard is making their game worse by not coming to grip with facts and dealing with the major problems with their game head-on. All they do is band-aid solutions that really only further reveal the inherent problems.
Brain dead spore crawler patch changed nothing? Oh is that why every ZvZ is literally only mass muta vs mass muta now? Oh wait.....
On June 20 2013 14:44 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 14:35 00higgo wrote:On June 20 2013 14:19 Survivor61316 wrote:On June 20 2013 13:59 00higgo wrote:Well there is a lot of Terrans that don't like the idea of being dropped. has to be a good change Lol what a foolish post. Ill give you a hint man, in TVTs, the other Terran can, wait for it, DROP YOU! Its not getting dropped on thats our problem, its giving such a better tool for protoss to do it specifically. And as far as a unit for getting army into your opponents base, the warp prism is much better than the medivac, as one warp prism can easily let 10+ zealots go into the base in a matter of seconds. It would take at least 3 medivacs to match that, which would be a serious commitment, and would be considered a doom drop. Lol chill dude, you act like this will be the single most imba thing in the game. Defend well and scout bro, and no one is warping 10 zel untill late game unless they are really bad. you should just learn how to deal with it like everyone had to with medivac speed or hellbats in general. Yeahh, just learn how to deal with it huh? Bc thats good advice.. And are you kidding me, "scout bro"?? Scout what? A robo? Bc that couldnt be used for anything else it a PvT..oh wait. So now we're on defend well..with what? Just leave 10-15 supply at each base in case zlot warp ins come? Not exactly a good solution. We dont have a one size fits all static defense like the photon cannon, or photon overcharge for that matter.
"Just learn how to deal with it" is exactly what Terran players have been telling P and Z since the start of HotS, so yes, take your own advice.
You know how useless it is to scout a Terran early game? You see a Barracks and one gas. That could be ANYTHING, a lot of which you can just straight up die to if you guess wrong.
You know how much it takes to defend even just a single medivac drop? Add in a second medivacs worth and suddenly you're looking at having to either cannon the shit out of your mineral lines, or leave valuable HTs at home and leave 6 gateways or more on perma cooldown just so you can move out on the map.
None of this stuff is a hugely insurmountable problem, and is a part of learning to play PvT. It keeps things interesting. Having said that, mobility and harass has 100% been in favor of T in the TvP matchup, this is meant to address that. I kind of doubt it will, though. Time spent making a warp prism before late game is time spent not making immortals/colossus so you don't just up and die to pushes. This is really critical when you're trying to take a 3rd and only on one robo (which is 100% standard)
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Interesting change, Terrans will have to learn to scout instead of blindly following Innovation build order into Hellbats, but they have the tools to deal with the harass easily once scouted.
Zerg might suffer the most i guess due to the low DPS of spores, time will tell
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On June 20 2013 14:51 Topdoller wrote:
Interesting change, Terrans will have to learn to scout instead of blindly following Innovation build order into Hellbats, but they have the tools to deal with the harass easily once scouted.
Zerg might suffer the most i guess due to the low DPS of spores, time will tell
How exactly could Terrans blindly follow INnoVations build order before the patch? Terran always has to scout. Protoss already has so many things that can deliver pain to Terran and nearly all of them require a different reaction out of Terran.
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On June 20 2013 14:49 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 13:32 _Search_ wrote:On June 20 2013 11:26 Wombat_NI wrote:On June 20 2013 11:06 _Search_ wrote:
I'm not saying this change is going to ruin the game, but it is another totally idiotic Blizzard patch to rival such missteps as the snipe nerf or strike cannons nerf.
They think this is going to give Protoss more harassment in PvT. All it will do is make the gap between PvZ even wider and drive even more Zergs out of major tournaments. The recent weeks of WCS have shown Zergs falling off in record numbers. Literally only one has made it from Challenger to Premier in WCS America so far, and WCS Korea is not going well for them either.
Blizzard has to get their shit together. These joke patches are an insult to people who actually play the game. How much of that is due to Warp Prisms? Protoss don't even have the cash to really pump into big warpin harassment in the period of the game where the passive speed boost will be applying. In the lategame, Protoss have the money to invest in WPs upgrade which is even faster than the current change is proposing. None but we all know the resurgence of immortal/sentry is just around the corner. It was never fixed in WoL and is still completely broken. It starts with Warp Prism harass that is already completely unpreventable (note: this is Blizzard's idea of a "dynamic" game. Harassment that literally cannot be defended because Zerg isn't allowed to kill air units). Personally I think this buff changes nothing, just like most patches by Blizzard, including the brain-dead spore crawler buff. If anything Blizzard is making their game worse by not coming to grip with facts and dealing with the major problems with their game head-on. All they do is band-aid solutions that really only further reveal the inherent problems. Brain dead spore crawler patch changed nothing? Oh is that why every ZvZ is literally only mass muta vs mass muta now? Oh wait..... Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 14:44 Survivor61316 wrote:On June 20 2013 14:35 00higgo wrote:On June 20 2013 14:19 Survivor61316 wrote:On June 20 2013 13:59 00higgo wrote:Well there is a lot of Terrans that don't like the idea of being dropped. has to be a good change Lol what a foolish post. Ill give you a hint man, in TVTs, the other Terran can, wait for it, DROP YOU! Its not getting dropped on thats our problem, its giving such a better tool for protoss to do it specifically. And as far as a unit for getting army into your opponents base, the warp prism is much better than the medivac, as one warp prism can easily let 10+ zealots go into the base in a matter of seconds. It would take at least 3 medivacs to match that, which would be a serious commitment, and would be considered a doom drop. Lol chill dude, you act like this will be the single most imba thing in the game. Defend well and scout bro, and no one is warping 10 zel untill late game unless they are really bad. you should just learn how to deal with it like everyone had to with medivac speed or hellbats in general. Yeahh, just learn how to deal with it huh? Bc thats good advice.. And are you kidding me, "scout bro"?? Scout what? A robo? Bc that couldnt be used for anything else it a PvT..oh wait. So now we're on defend well..with what? Just leave 10-15 supply at each base in case zlot warp ins come? Not exactly a good solution. We dont have a one size fits all static defense like the photon cannon, or photon overcharge for that matter. "Just learn how to deal with it" is exactly what Terran players have been telling P and Z since the start of HotS, so yes, take your own advice. You know how useless it is to scout a Terran early game? You see a Barracks and one gas. That could be ANYTHING, a lot of which you can just straight up die to if you guess wrong. You know how much it takes to defend even just a single medivac drop? Add in a second medivacs worth and suddenly you're looking at having to either cannon the shit out of your mineral lines, or leave valuable HTs at home and leave 6 gateways or more on perma cooldown just so you can move out on the map. None of this stuff is a hugely insurmountable problem, and is a part of learning to play PvT. It keeps things interesting. Having said that, mobility and harass has 100% been in favor of T in the TvP matchup, this is meant to address that. I kind of doubt it will, though. Time spent making a warp prism before late game is time spent not making immortals/colossus so you don't just up and die to pushes. This is really critical when you're trying to take a 3rd and only on one robo (which is 100% standard) Agreed, someone gets it.
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Time for more Proxy Rax vs P!
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On June 20 2013 14:46 00higgo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 14:44 Survivor61316 wrote:On June 20 2013 14:35 00higgo wrote:On June 20 2013 14:19 Survivor61316 wrote:On June 20 2013 13:59 00higgo wrote:Well there is a lot of Terrans that don't like the idea of being dropped. has to be a good change Lol what a foolish post. Ill give you a hint man, in TVTs, the other Terran can, wait for it, DROP YOU! Its not getting dropped on thats our problem, its giving such a better tool for protoss to do it specifically. And as far as a unit for getting army into your opponents base, the warp prism is much better than the medivac, as one warp prism can easily let 10+ zealots go into the base in a matter of seconds. It would take at least 3 medivacs to match that, which would be a serious commitment, and would be considered a doom drop. Lol chill dude, you act like this will be the single most imba thing in the game. Defend well and scout bro, and no one is warping 10 zel untill late game unless they are really bad. you should just learn how to deal with it like everyone had to with medivac speed or hellbats in general. Yeahh, just learn how to deal with it huh? Bc thats good advice.. And are you kidding me, "scout bro"?? Scout what? A robo? Bc that couldnt be used for anything else it a PvT..oh wait. So now we're on defend well..with what? Just leave 10-15 supply at each base in case zlot warp ins come? Not exactly a good solution. We dont have a one size fits all static defense like the photon cannon, or photon overcharge for that matter. By scout i mean have good map vision across map and around your base, and yeah just deal with it.
We're not zerg, we dont have overlords to just keep spread out around the drop paths to see if one is incoming. If all it takes is "good map vision across the map and around your base" to thwart drops, then why cant protoss just do that and deny all of terrans drops? Because thats a ridiculous way to approach the situation, and its virtually impossible to depend on that to catch drops that can travel over dead space.
But whereas toss' army is usually very close to home, and they have photon overcharge, and photon cannons to attack both the medivacs and the units it drops, terrans army is usually spread out, and only has turrets, which can be taken out quickly with dropped (not warped in) zlots, thus allowing the prism to come back and warp in another round (which means btw that it only takes 6 gates to quickly get 10 zlots in the base). Please stop posting mindlessly, as you've clearly not actually given it any real thought with such great wisdom as "just deal with it".
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On June 20 2013 15:01 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 14:46 00higgo wrote:On June 20 2013 14:44 Survivor61316 wrote:On June 20 2013 14:35 00higgo wrote:On June 20 2013 14:19 Survivor61316 wrote:On June 20 2013 13:59 00higgo wrote:Well there is a lot of Terrans that don't like the idea of being dropped. has to be a good change Lol what a foolish post. Ill give you a hint man, in TVTs, the other Terran can, wait for it, DROP YOU! Its not getting dropped on thats our problem, its giving such a better tool for protoss to do it specifically. And as far as a unit for getting army into your opponents base, the warp prism is much better than the medivac, as one warp prism can easily let 10+ zealots go into the base in a matter of seconds. It would take at least 3 medivacs to match that, which would be a serious commitment, and would be considered a doom drop. Lol chill dude, you act like this will be the single most imba thing in the game. Defend well and scout bro, and no one is warping 10 zel untill late game unless they are really bad. you should just learn how to deal with it like everyone had to with medivac speed or hellbats in general. Yeahh, just learn how to deal with it huh? Bc thats good advice.. And are you kidding me, "scout bro"?? Scout what? A robo? Bc that couldnt be used for anything else it a PvT..oh wait. So now we're on defend well..with what? Just leave 10-15 supply at each base in case zlot warp ins come? Not exactly a good solution. We dont have a one size fits all static defense like the photon cannon, or photon overcharge for that matter. By scout i mean have good map vision across map and around your base, and yeah just deal with it. We're not zerg, we dont have overlords to just keep spread out around the drop paths to see if one is incoming. If all it takes is "good map vision across the map and around your base" to thwart drops, then why cant protoss just do that and deny all of terrans drops? Because thats a ridiculous way to approach the situation, and its virtually impossible to depend on that to catch drops that can travel over dead space. But whereas toss' army is usually very close to home, and they have photon overcharge, and photon cannons to attack both the medivacs and the units it drops, terrans army is usually spread out, and only has turrets, which can be taken out quickly with dropped (not warped in) zlots, thus allowing the prism to come back and warp in another round (which means btw that it only takes 6 gates to quickly get 10 zlots in the base). Please stop posting mindlessly, as you've clearly not actually given it any real thought with such great wisdom as "just deal with it".
And why is Toss army usually close to home? Because of *#&@ing medivac drops.
You have sensor towers, maybe time to start using them? I already make 3+ observers to spot drops, and those cost supply as well as resources, plus eat up production time for potentially valuable attacking units.
Terran army can also afford to be spread out, because the Terran army (bio, not really mech) is extremely effective still even in small chunks.
Play Protoss sometime, really make an effort at it. You will see it's not all roses and puppies and rainbows and blowjobs on our side of the fence.
I think this buff is being vastly overestimated. As a Protoss player, I'm struggling to think of situations in which making a slightly faster warp prism is much more beneficial to me than using that production time on another immortal or Colossus. Except in the late game obviously, when I've already got the speed boost researched.
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This patch will be a lot of fun, I guess. Especially in PvZ.
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On June 20 2013 14:49 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 13:32 _Search_ wrote:On June 20 2013 11:26 Wombat_NI wrote:On June 20 2013 11:06 _Search_ wrote:
I'm not saying this change is going to ruin the game, but it is another totally idiotic Blizzard patch to rival such missteps as the snipe nerf or strike cannons nerf.
They think this is going to give Protoss more harassment in PvT. All it will do is make the gap between PvZ even wider and drive even more Zergs out of major tournaments. The recent weeks of WCS have shown Zergs falling off in record numbers. Literally only one has made it from Challenger to Premier in WCS America so far, and WCS Korea is not going well for them either.
Blizzard has to get their shit together. These joke patches are an insult to people who actually play the game. How much of that is due to Warp Prisms? Protoss don't even have the cash to really pump into big warpin harassment in the period of the game where the passive speed boost will be applying. In the lategame, Protoss have the money to invest in WPs upgrade which is even faster than the current change is proposing. None but we all know the resurgence of immortal/sentry is just around the corner. It was never fixed in WoL and is still completely broken. It starts with Warp Prism harass that is already completely unpreventable (note: this is Blizzard's idea of a "dynamic" game. Harassment that literally cannot be defended because Zerg isn't allowed to kill air units). Personally I think this buff changes nothing, just like most patches by Blizzard, including the brain-dead spore crawler buff. If anything Blizzard is making their game worse by not coming to grip with facts and dealing with the major problems with their game head-on. All they do is band-aid solutions that really only further reveal the inherent problems. Brain dead spore crawler patch changed nothing? Oh is that why every ZvZ is literally only mass muta vs mass muta now? Oh wait..... Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 14:44 Survivor61316 wrote:On June 20 2013 14:35 00higgo wrote:On June 20 2013 14:19 Survivor61316 wrote:On June 20 2013 13:59 00higgo wrote:Well there is a lot of Terrans that don't like the idea of being dropped. has to be a good change Lol what a foolish post. Ill give you a hint man, in TVTs, the other Terran can, wait for it, DROP YOU! Its not getting dropped on thats our problem, its giving such a better tool for protoss to do it specifically. And as far as a unit for getting army into your opponents base, the warp prism is much better than the medivac, as one warp prism can easily let 10+ zealots go into the base in a matter of seconds. It would take at least 3 medivacs to match that, which would be a serious commitment, and would be considered a doom drop. Lol chill dude, you act like this will be the single most imba thing in the game. Defend well and scout bro, and no one is warping 10 zel untill late game unless they are really bad. you should just learn how to deal with it like everyone had to with medivac speed or hellbats in general. Yeahh, just learn how to deal with it huh? Bc thats good advice.. And are you kidding me, "scout bro"?? Scout what? A robo? Bc that couldnt be used for anything else it a PvT..oh wait. So now we're on defend well..with what? Just leave 10-15 supply at each base in case zlot warp ins come? Not exactly a good solution. We dont have a one size fits all static defense like the photon cannon, or photon overcharge for that matter. "Just learn how to deal with it" is exactly what Terran players have been telling P and Z since the start of HotS, so yes, take your own advice. You know how useless it is to scout a Terran early game? You see a Barracks and one gas. That could be ANYTHING, a lot of which you can just straight up die to if you guess wrong. You know how much it takes to defend even just a single medivac drop? Add in a second medivacs worth and suddenly you're looking at having to either cannon the shit out of your mineral lines, or leave valuable HTs at home and leave 6 gateways or more on perma cooldown just so you can move out on the map. None of this stuff is a hugely insurmountable problem, and is a part of learning to play PvT. It keeps things interesting. Having said that, mobility and harass has 100% been in favor of T in the TvP matchup, this is meant to address that. I kind of doubt it will, though. Time spent making a warp prism before late game is time spent not making immortals/colossus so you don't just up and die to pushes. This is really critical when you're trying to take a 3rd and only on one robo (which is 100% standard)
'Just learn and deal with is' is what Terrans have been told since the beginning of time when getting nerfed all over again and thats what Terrans did. They dealt with it and came up with new builds, unique styles and strategies every once in a while again. Once Terran got a buff in their builds/units, Protoss and Zerg are trying to drown us in tears. I don't feel like this patch will change too much. Warp prisms were annoying to begin with, now they are a little more annoying. I don't think Terran will react in a very different way. Maybe we will get a turret now and leave 1 viking or a widow mine there. A good Protoss will always get the warp prism in your base and since its a "general" buff to its speed and the speedupgrade doesn't change the top speed I don't actually have a big problem with the patch. I still hope it won't be an all in / colossus drop party now.
But about your notes in PvT, I have to tell you that you are not a very good player or at least you do a very bad job at presenting yourself. In PvT I would agree that you cannot completely scout what Terran is doing, but saying you can have no clue and/or it could be anything is wrong. If you scout 1 gas you can already click on it and tell if its a 12 gas, a 13 gas or even a gas first build. Knowing a bit of Terran timings, 12 barracks/12 gas will mostly result in a reaper which takes longer to produce, so by the time he should have a marine, he will not have one. -> Reaper.
If you check a gas timing and figure a 12 gas and a marine pops out you can expect a tech build, it still could also be reactor into factory, but thats a tech build in my book, just after expansion. Its like saying you cannot figure out what Protoss is doing as Terran. Its not easy to tell, because most of the Protoss builds look very similar or can be faked by Protoss to look very similar, but if you take some time and talk to a Protoss you can figure out stuff. How many probes on gas, how many probes on minerals, 2nd pylon? 3rd pylon? What are the timings? MSC building? Stalker building? Warpgate researching?
There's plenty of stuff that will give a good player an edge, same against Terran. A good Protoss will know Terran stuff and read properly. Also, as you pointed out I would disagree. Harass is hugely nerfed in the early game against Protoss. Basically no aggression without medivacs can be applied and the aggression that can come early, can be denied pretty well. Its just nowadays Protoss prefer to be as greedy as possible because they are the strong race in the early game. MSC has huge defensive and offensive potential and Terran has to make sure he doesn't die to early aggression. There's a lot of stuff that straight kills Terran if he decides to be aggressive and is hit by it, so by any means please don't make it sound like its WoL still. The times with Terran moving around the map with a small bio army scouting for Pylons before medivacs is long gone and the first 2 medivac drop rarely deals damage. It rarely dealt damage in WoL, but it was a way bigger threat back then and Protoss couldn't take chances and go for 1 gate expansion into robo into 2 forges into twilight, before even adding a good amount of gates.
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can we be honest here: does blizzard really think protoss players are going to use this for anything other than cheese?
they gotta be playing a different game.
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On June 20 2013 15:01 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 14:46 00higgo wrote:On June 20 2013 14:44 Survivor61316 wrote:On June 20 2013 14:35 00higgo wrote:On June 20 2013 14:19 Survivor61316 wrote:On June 20 2013 13:59 00higgo wrote:Well there is a lot of Terrans that don't like the idea of being dropped. has to be a good change Lol what a foolish post. Ill give you a hint man, in TVTs, the other Terran can, wait for it, DROP YOU! Its not getting dropped on thats our problem, its giving such a better tool for protoss to do it specifically. And as far as a unit for getting army into your opponents base, the warp prism is much better than the medivac, as one warp prism can easily let 10+ zealots go into the base in a matter of seconds. It would take at least 3 medivacs to match that, which would be a serious commitment, and would be considered a doom drop. Lol chill dude, you act like this will be the single most imba thing in the game. Defend well and scout bro, and no one is warping 10 zel untill late game unless they are really bad. you should just learn how to deal with it like everyone had to with medivac speed or hellbats in general. Yeahh, just learn how to deal with it huh? Bc thats good advice.. And are you kidding me, "scout bro"?? Scout what? A robo? Bc that couldnt be used for anything else it a PvT..oh wait. So now we're on defend well..with what? Just leave 10-15 supply at each base in case zlot warp ins come? Not exactly a good solution. We dont have a one size fits all static defense like the photon cannon, or photon overcharge for that matter. By scout i mean have good map vision across map and around your base, and yeah just deal with it. We're not zerg, we dont have overlords to just keep spread out around the drop paths to see if one is incoming. If all it takes is "good map vision across the map and around your base" to thwart drops, then why cant protoss just do that and deny all of terrans drops? Because thats a ridiculous way to approach the situation, and its virtually impossible to depend on that to catch drops that can travel over dead space. But whereas toss' army is usually very close to home, and they have photon overcharge, and photon cannons to attack both the medivacs and the units it drops, terrans army is usually spread out, and only has turrets, which can be taken out quickly with dropped (not warped in) zlots, thus allowing the prism to come back and warp in another round (which means btw that it only takes 6 gates to quickly get 10 zlots in the base). Please stop posting mindlessly, as you've clearly not actually given it any real thought with such great wisdom as "just deal with it". i have thought at great lengths about it, i just don't feel the need to post everything that goes through my head, only the conclusion i come to, id advise you to do the same sir.
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On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote:
Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly.
That would imply that Terrans every made a viking to deal with it anyway. Also Just load up marines in a medivac and chase it down, clearly.
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On June 20 2013 15:09 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 14:49 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On June 20 2013 13:32 _Search_ wrote:On June 20 2013 11:26 Wombat_NI wrote:On June 20 2013 11:06 _Search_ wrote:
I'm not saying this change is going to ruin the game, but it is another totally idiotic Blizzard patch to rival such missteps as the snipe nerf or strike cannons nerf.
They think this is going to give Protoss more harassment in PvT. All it will do is make the gap between PvZ even wider and drive even more Zergs out of major tournaments. The recent weeks of WCS have shown Zergs falling off in record numbers. Literally only one has made it from Challenger to Premier in WCS America so far, and WCS Korea is not going well for them either.
Blizzard has to get their shit together. These joke patches are an insult to people who actually play the game. How much of that is due to Warp Prisms? Protoss don't even have the cash to really pump into big warpin harassment in the period of the game where the passive speed boost will be applying. In the lategame, Protoss have the money to invest in WPs upgrade which is even faster than the current change is proposing. None but we all know the resurgence of immortal/sentry is just around the corner. It was never fixed in WoL and is still completely broken. It starts with Warp Prism harass that is already completely unpreventable (note: this is Blizzard's idea of a "dynamic" game. Harassment that literally cannot be defended because Zerg isn't allowed to kill air units). Personally I think this buff changes nothing, just like most patches by Blizzard, including the brain-dead spore crawler buff. If anything Blizzard is making their game worse by not coming to grip with facts and dealing with the major problems with their game head-on. All they do is band-aid solutions that really only further reveal the inherent problems. Brain dead spore crawler patch changed nothing? Oh is that why every ZvZ is literally only mass muta vs mass muta now? Oh wait..... On June 20 2013 14:44 Survivor61316 wrote:On June 20 2013 14:35 00higgo wrote:On June 20 2013 14:19 Survivor61316 wrote:On June 20 2013 13:59 00higgo wrote:Well there is a lot of Terrans that don't like the idea of being dropped. has to be a good change Lol what a foolish post. Ill give you a hint man, in TVTs, the other Terran can, wait for it, DROP YOU! Its not getting dropped on thats our problem, its giving such a better tool for protoss to do it specifically. And as far as a unit for getting army into your opponents base, the warp prism is much better than the medivac, as one warp prism can easily let 10+ zealots go into the base in a matter of seconds. It would take at least 3 medivacs to match that, which would be a serious commitment, and would be considered a doom drop. Lol chill dude, you act like this will be the single most imba thing in the game. Defend well and scout bro, and no one is warping 10 zel untill late game unless they are really bad. you should just learn how to deal with it like everyone had to with medivac speed or hellbats in general. Yeahh, just learn how to deal with it huh? Bc thats good advice.. And are you kidding me, "scout bro"?? Scout what? A robo? Bc that couldnt be used for anything else it a PvT..oh wait. So now we're on defend well..with what? Just leave 10-15 supply at each base in case zlot warp ins come? Not exactly a good solution. We dont have a one size fits all static defense like the photon cannon, or photon overcharge for that matter. "Just learn how to deal with it" is exactly what Terran players have been telling P and Z since the start of HotS, so yes, take your own advice. You know how useless it is to scout a Terran early game? You see a Barracks and one gas. That could be ANYTHING, a lot of which you can just straight up die to if you guess wrong. You know how much it takes to defend even just a single medivac drop? Add in a second medivacs worth and suddenly you're looking at having to either cannon the shit out of your mineral lines, or leave valuable HTs at home and leave 6 gateways or more on perma cooldown just so you can move out on the map. None of this stuff is a hugely insurmountable problem, and is a part of learning to play PvT. It keeps things interesting. Having said that, mobility and harass has 100% been in favor of T in the TvP matchup, this is meant to address that. I kind of doubt it will, though. Time spent making a warp prism before late game is time spent not making immortals/colossus so you don't just up and die to pushes. This is really critical when you're trying to take a 3rd and only on one robo (which is 100% standard) 'Just learn and deal with is' is what Terrans have been told since the beginning of time when getting nerfed all over again and thats what Terrans did. They dealt with it and came up with new builds, unique styles and strategies every once in a while again. Once Terran got a buff in their builds/units, Protoss and Zerg are trying to drown us in tears. I don't feel like this patch will change too much. Warp prisms were annoying to begin with, now they are a little more annoying. I don't think Terran will react in a very different way. Maybe we will get a turret now and leave 1 viking or a widow mine there. A good Protoss will always get the warp prism in your base and since its a "general" buff to its speed and the speedupgrade doesn't change the top speed I don't actually have a big problem with the patch. I still hope it won't be an all in / colossus drop party now. But about your notes in PvT, I have to tell you that you are not a very good player or at least you do a very bad job at presenting yourself. In PvT I would agree that you cannot completely scout what Terran is doing, but saying you can have no clue and/or it could be anything is wrong. If you scout 1 gas you can already click on it and tell if its a 12 gas, a 13 gas or even a gas first build. Knowing a bit of Terran timings, 12 barracks/12 gas will mostly result in a reaper which takes longer to produce, so by the time he should have a marine, he will not have one. -> Reaper. If you check a gas timing and figure a 12 gas and a marine pops out you can expect a tech build, it still could also be reactor into factory, but thats a tech build in my book, just after expansion. Its like saying you cannot figure out what Protoss is doing as Terran. Its not easy to tell, because most of the Protoss builds look very similar or can be faked by Protoss to look very similar, but if you take some time and talk to a Protoss you can figure out stuff. How many probes on gas, how many probes on minerals, 2nd pylon? 3rd pylon? What are the timings? MSC building? Stalker building? Warpgate researching? There's plenty of stuff that will give a good player an edge, same against Terran. A good Protoss will know Terran stuff and read properly. Also, as you pointed out I would disagree. Harass is hugely nerfed in the early game against Protoss. Basically no aggression without medivacs can be applied and the aggression that can come early, can be denied pretty well. Its just nowadays Protoss prefer to be as greedy as possible because they are the strong race in the early game. MSC has huge defensive and offensive potential and Terran has to make sure he doesn't die to early aggression. There's a lot of stuff that straight kills Terran if he decides to be aggressive and is hit by it, so by any means please don't make it sound like its WoL still. The times with Terran moving around the map with a small bio army scouting for Pylons before medivacs is long gone and the first 2 medivac drop rarely deals damage. It rarely dealt damage in WoL, but it was a way bigger threat back then and Protoss couldn't take chances and go for 1 gate expansion into robo into 2 forges into twilight, before even adding a good amount of gates.
I was mostly trying to illustrate a point against the "OMG ROBO WUT DOES IT MEAN!?" guy I was responding to. Figuring out what you've scouted is a huge part of learning how to get better at this game.
I do, however, disagree with this greatly: "Harass is hugely nerfed in the early game against Protoss. Basically no aggression without medivacs can be applied and the aggression that can come early, can be denied pretty well."
But that's a discussion for another thread.
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Holy crap the terran whining in this thread. 70% medivac boost plus the addition of hellbats to the race already with the strongest drops is fine apparently, but a 30% prism boost means the sky is falling. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
This is going not going to change much, *especially* in the lategame (where speed prisms are still exactly the same speed...)
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On June 20 2013 07:06 Akusta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 07:04 Brett wrote:On June 20 2013 07:02 GTPGlitch wrote:On June 20 2013 07:01 FXOTheoRy wrote:On June 20 2013 06:55 TheDwf wrote:On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote:
Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly. Yeah. Can't wait to have Zealots 24/7 rampaging my base because I can't finish a Prism with a Viking... speed medivacs same problem afaik barracks can't be put in medivacs "afaik warp prisms cant heal" Shall we continue the dumb comparison? Your argument is invalid. Which is better? 3+ heal to one unit? Or arbitrary instant troop deployment across the map from 30 production facilities?
LOL 30 production facilities? Lets say its end game and toss has 20 gates... how about terran having a lot more army due to mules? IT IS a DUMB comparison. You dont compare a medivac with a warp prism.
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A single viking is still enough to shut the scary part of warpprism down actually. You guys are forgetting warpprisms need to deploy first to be able to warp units directly, and 4 zealots in the base at a time really isnt that scary :/
Regarding late game - Im sure most terrans who find this scary never actually had TvP's go past 15 minutes if they could do anything about it
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Love how the top five comments complaining were all Terran. I also love how I'm Protoss
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On June 20 2013 15:16 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 15:09 Type|NarutO wrote:On June 20 2013 14:49 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On June 20 2013 13:32 _Search_ wrote:On June 20 2013 11:26 Wombat_NI wrote:On June 20 2013 11:06 _Search_ wrote:
I'm not saying this change is going to ruin the game, but it is another totally idiotic Blizzard patch to rival such missteps as the snipe nerf or strike cannons nerf.
They think this is going to give Protoss more harassment in PvT. All it will do is make the gap between PvZ even wider and drive even more Zergs out of major tournaments. The recent weeks of WCS have shown Zergs falling off in record numbers. Literally only one has made it from Challenger to Premier in WCS America so far, and WCS Korea is not going well for them either.
Blizzard has to get their shit together. These joke patches are an insult to people who actually play the game. How much of that is due to Warp Prisms? Protoss don't even have the cash to really pump into big warpin harassment in the period of the game where the passive speed boost will be applying. In the lategame, Protoss have the money to invest in WPs upgrade which is even faster than the current change is proposing. None but we all know the resurgence of immortal/sentry is just around the corner. It was never fixed in WoL and is still completely broken. It starts with Warp Prism harass that is already completely unpreventable (note: this is Blizzard's idea of a "dynamic" game. Harassment that literally cannot be defended because Zerg isn't allowed to kill air units). Personally I think this buff changes nothing, just like most patches by Blizzard, including the brain-dead spore crawler buff. If anything Blizzard is making their game worse by not coming to grip with facts and dealing with the major problems with their game head-on. All they do is band-aid solutions that really only further reveal the inherent problems. Brain dead spore crawler patch changed nothing? Oh is that why every ZvZ is literally only mass muta vs mass muta now? Oh wait..... On June 20 2013 14:44 Survivor61316 wrote:On June 20 2013 14:35 00higgo wrote:On June 20 2013 14:19 Survivor61316 wrote:On June 20 2013 13:59 00higgo wrote:Well there is a lot of Terrans that don't like the idea of being dropped. has to be a good change Lol what a foolish post. Ill give you a hint man, in TVTs, the other Terran can, wait for it, DROP YOU! Its not getting dropped on thats our problem, its giving such a better tool for protoss to do it specifically. And as far as a unit for getting army into your opponents base, the warp prism is much better than the medivac, as one warp prism can easily let 10+ zealots go into the base in a matter of seconds. It would take at least 3 medivacs to match that, which would be a serious commitment, and would be considered a doom drop. Lol chill dude, you act like this will be the single most imba thing in the game. Defend well and scout bro, and no one is warping 10 zel untill late game unless they are really bad. you should just learn how to deal with it like everyone had to with medivac speed or hellbats in general. Yeahh, just learn how to deal with it huh? Bc thats good advice.. And are you kidding me, "scout bro"?? Scout what? A robo? Bc that couldnt be used for anything else it a PvT..oh wait. So now we're on defend well..with what? Just leave 10-15 supply at each base in case zlot warp ins come? Not exactly a good solution. We dont have a one size fits all static defense like the photon cannon, or photon overcharge for that matter. "Just learn how to deal with it" is exactly what Terran players have been telling P and Z since the start of HotS, so yes, take your own advice. You know how useless it is to scout a Terran early game? You see a Barracks and one gas. That could be ANYTHING, a lot of which you can just straight up die to if you guess wrong. You know how much it takes to defend even just a single medivac drop? Add in a second medivacs worth and suddenly you're looking at having to either cannon the shit out of your mineral lines, or leave valuable HTs at home and leave 6 gateways or more on perma cooldown just so you can move out on the map. None of this stuff is a hugely insurmountable problem, and is a part of learning to play PvT. It keeps things interesting. Having said that, mobility and harass has 100% been in favor of T in the TvP matchup, this is meant to address that. I kind of doubt it will, though. Time spent making a warp prism before late game is time spent not making immortals/colossus so you don't just up and die to pushes. This is really critical when you're trying to take a 3rd and only on one robo (which is 100% standard) 'Just learn and deal with is' is what Terrans have been told since the beginning of time when getting nerfed all over again and thats what Terrans did. They dealt with it and came up with new builds, unique styles and strategies every once in a while again. Once Terran got a buff in their builds/units, Protoss and Zerg are trying to drown us in tears. I don't feel like this patch will change too much. Warp prisms were annoying to begin with, now they are a little more annoying. I don't think Terran will react in a very different way. Maybe we will get a turret now and leave 1 viking or a widow mine there. A good Protoss will always get the warp prism in your base and since its a "general" buff to its speed and the speedupgrade doesn't change the top speed I don't actually have a big problem with the patch. I still hope it won't be an all in / colossus drop party now. But about your notes in PvT, I have to tell you that you are not a very good player or at least you do a very bad job at presenting yourself. In PvT I would agree that you cannot completely scout what Terran is doing, but saying you can have no clue and/or it could be anything is wrong. If you scout 1 gas you can already click on it and tell if its a 12 gas, a 13 gas or even a gas first build. Knowing a bit of Terran timings, 12 barracks/12 gas will mostly result in a reaper which takes longer to produce, so by the time he should have a marine, he will not have one. -> Reaper. If you check a gas timing and figure a 12 gas and a marine pops out you can expect a tech build, it still could also be reactor into factory, but thats a tech build in my book, just after expansion. Its like saying you cannot figure out what Protoss is doing as Terran. Its not easy to tell, because most of the Protoss builds look very similar or can be faked by Protoss to look very similar, but if you take some time and talk to a Protoss you can figure out stuff. How many probes on gas, how many probes on minerals, 2nd pylon? 3rd pylon? What are the timings? MSC building? Stalker building? Warpgate researching? There's plenty of stuff that will give a good player an edge, same against Terran. A good Protoss will know Terran stuff and read properly. Also, as you pointed out I would disagree. Harass is hugely nerfed in the early game against Protoss. Basically no aggression without medivacs can be applied and the aggression that can come early, can be denied pretty well. Its just nowadays Protoss prefer to be as greedy as possible because they are the strong race in the early game. MSC has huge defensive and offensive potential and Terran has to make sure he doesn't die to early aggression. There's a lot of stuff that straight kills Terran if he decides to be aggressive and is hit by it, so by any means please don't make it sound like its WoL still. The times with Terran moving around the map with a small bio army scouting for Pylons before medivacs is long gone and the first 2 medivac drop rarely deals damage. It rarely dealt damage in WoL, but it was a way bigger threat back then and Protoss couldn't take chances and go for 1 gate expansion into robo into 2 forges into twilight, before even adding a good amount of gates. I was mostly trying to illustrate a point against the "OMG ROBO WUT DOES IT MEAN!?" guy I was responding to. Figuring out what you've scouted is a huge part of learning how to get better at this game. I do, however, disagree with this greatly: "Harass is hugely nerfed in the early game against Protoss. Basically no aggression without medivacs can be applied and the aggression that can come early, can be denied pretty well." But that's a discussion for another thread.
You can PM me, I'd discuss with great pleasure how a Terran should apply pressure against photon overcharge and the potential threat of not retreating against a timewarp . The only 'good thing' that would allow harass is lack of detection , lack of sentries due to greed (fast upgrades) or safety (MSC). Other than that... I really don't see harass options. You can poke with marine/mine, but a good Protoss will not really suffer a lot from it, especially as you could kite the marines until they arrive at your base. If you are talking about 2 rax reaper, that is indeed a good option, but it will also not deal huge damage if Protoss knows how to play against it, but its good to keep him inbase and expand twice behind
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On June 20 2013 06:55 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote:
Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly. Yeah. Can't wait to have Zealots 24/7 rampaging my base because I can't finish a Prism with a Viking...
you mean like terran does all day?
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EPT
