I know there's been a lot of talk about this. Let me just address a few points.
In general As many are pointing out, we are keeping true to the past OSL formats. There are arguments for uniformity as now we are in the era of WCS, and this is duly noted. We, and I am sure other parties as well, will be monitoring things this year to see what to conform and why.
However, for the time being, the situation has allowed us to keep our character, and as we venture into the new WCS with excitement, we're very thankful we can keep that. It may not be for everyone, and it may not be a good fit for SC2 or be changed in the future, but we want to see how it works out before jumping to changes.
GomTV has been successful with their formula for the GSL, and all the props to them for that. I just hope OGN will also be given a chance to stick to what we've done successfully before finalizing any modifications (and hopefully improvements).
We hope you understand and appreciate your patience.
Regarding the Ro32: Yes, we understand the concerns. I do not think bo1's have no benefits, but your concerns are valid. I will admit though, currently we are not putting much time or effort into changing it immediately. This is because, even if we wanted to, the logistics are not feasible for this season. I'm not guaranteeing that it will change in the future, just want to admit that right now given the feasibility of things, we aren't focusing on changing the content, but how to better present that content. Throughout all this, we will definitely be monitoring all aspects, and I think it's safe to say that all the parties involved in the WCS will see vast improvement over the year/next year.
Thanks for chiming in. We're listening, you can trust me on that one.
Not sure if I'd consider group E the group of death, maybe if fantasy and jangbi were both like how they were in BW. Although they do play some nice SC2 sometimes. Kind of excited for the rain vs bomber, depending on which bomber shows up
Group E is balanced, but definitely not Group of Death
They're all players with something to prove. Fantasy, Jangbi, the finalists of the last OSL, both rising to reclaim the title for SC2. KangHo reemerging after changing his ID, trying to get a title after a lack of effort for the past year. Life wanting to continue his dominance after getting sniffled out of the real group of death in the GSL.
No particularly strong group this time. And by strong I mean "one super good dude is not gonna make it..." strong. Group E seems fairly straight forward to me.
Cool, Squirtle says that PvP is his best matchup and he had godly PvP in the past so I think the group is good for him. BO1 is actually a big help to him too I think, he can plan some sicker builds than normal.
Group F is an insane group and should be higher on the voting, though I understand at least why E got the top spot, yet it's not really that far above the others.
The groups are pretty fucking balanced. Can't really decide on a group of death. Every matchup seems to be good, there are a few lightweights but nearly everyone is in contention of getting out of their R1 groups.
blah Ragnarok gets a tough group right out the gate. I'd say he'll be a really great player in the future, but not soon enough to take on Soulkey or Flash just yet. Though from what I hear, OSL is sticking to it's inane bo1 for the ro32 so who knows..
Group E looks quite exciting.
Shame Yonghwa and Squirtle are in the same group >_<;
On June 13 2013 10:16 sM.Zik wrote: OSL without Jaedong feels so weird
Yeah.... but at least Flash, Jangbi, Fantasy, and Effort are there. And the fact that the up and coming players from bw before the switch like Neo.G.Soulkey, By.Sun, and Bogus have become really good at sc2 make it pretty good storylines imo.
Life better destroy this osl! Glad to see his group is the 25th, making it still possible for him to go to MLG. Sure hope he decides to go to MLG still.
how come most don't consider h group of death? I mean Rain is a beast, Bomber has one of the best macro and is a formidable Terran player. Hurricane is an up and comer who won his up and downs(if I recall) and KeeN was an amazing player so it can go any way. We know Flash and SK are likely to take first and second place for their group, likewise for group e, Kangho might've made RO8 in WCS Finals(or w/e it was) but his play is horrible >< Fantasy isn't doing as well as I hoped either. Jangbi and life are most likely to advance, life almost being a guarantee lol
OSL made sure that they can be a unique butterfly by making all the first sets play on their new maps, which have never been tested in official matches, and the games are bo1. Oh boy...
On June 13 2013 10:57 FeyFey wrote: bo1 on untested maps ? Can someone tell em its not BW we are playing. Oh well atleast Ro16 can be really funny now.
I know, lol.
I dunno about everyone else, but I thought the first sc2 OSL was awful. I could excuse them since they were kind of new to the game though. 1 year later and they still don't seem to have learned, well, I can't forgive that...
On June 13 2013 10:57 FeyFey wrote: bo1 on untested maps ? Can someone tell em its not BW we are playing. Oh well atleast Ro16 can be really funny now.
you really think that the maps are not tested by hundred of KeSPA players beforehand?
Has anyone looked at Anaconda? There are two bases behind the main, with backdoor rocks to the second one. Think Icarus but with 2 backdoor bases instead of one.
On June 13 2013 10:57 FeyFey wrote: bo1 on untested maps ? Can someone tell em its not BW we are playing. Oh well atleast Ro16 can be really funny now.
you really think that the maps are not tested by hundred of KeSPA players beforehand?
You think a few KeSPA players and coaches testing them is enough? Because they didn't ever put any imbalanced maps in PL before?
Best of 1? Seriously? Ugh, that's so incredibly disappointing. Code S quality went up by orders of magnitude when they switched away from the crappy Bo1 format. I miss GOM already.
YugiOh needs to get into Super saiyan mode... hell actually Super Saiyan 3 mode, double up his practice time, and double up his luck to get out from the group
On June 13 2013 10:57 FeyFey wrote: bo1 on untested maps ? Can someone tell em its not BW we are playing. Oh well atleast Ro16 can be really funny now.
you really think that the maps are not tested by hundred of KeSPA players beforehand?
that would be the other issue poor non kespa players . But I am looking on the bright side right now. With alot of luck all of favorites will somehow get eliminated. And then the players from NA and EU will have a way easier time haha. Not sure who does the up and downs though, but if its ogn then only 4 games between players and code B. (though I think gom does everything else)
On June 13 2013 10:57 FeyFey wrote: bo1 on untested maps ? Can someone tell em its not BW we are playing. Oh well atleast Ro16 can be really funny now.
you really think that the maps are not tested by hundred of KeSPA players beforehand?
that would be the other issue poor non kespa players . But I am looking on the bright side right now. With alot of luck all of favorites will somehow get eliminated. And then the players from NA and EU will have a way easier time haha. Not sure who does the up and downs though, but if its ogn then only 4 games between players and code B. (though I think gom does everything else)
Code A is still GOM, at least that won't be bo1. But you're right, a player can now go from Code S to Code B with only 4 maps played, thanks to OSL.
On June 13 2013 10:57 FeyFey wrote: bo1 on untested maps ? Can someone tell em its not BW we are playing. Oh well atleast Ro16 can be really funny now.
you really think that the maps are not tested by hundred of KeSPA players beforehand?
You think a few KeSPA players and coaches testing them is enough? Because they didn't ever put any imbalanced maps in PL before?
So what do you suggest? hold a some kind of TLMC for people who only appreciate standard repetitive play & circle-syndrome maps? And pretty sure these "few" players & coaches know the best lol
On June 13 2013 10:57 FeyFey wrote: bo1 on untested maps ? Can someone tell em its not BW we are playing. Oh well atleast Ro16 can be really funny now.
you really think that the maps are not tested by hundred of KeSPA players beforehand?
You think a few KeSPA players and coaches testing them is enough? Because they didn't ever put any imbalanced maps in PL before?
So what do you suggest? hold a some kind of TLMC for people who only appreciate standard repetitive play & circle-syndrome maps? And pretty sure these "few" players & coaches know the best lol
I suggest not having bo1 in the first round, and not forcing concept maps with 2 backdoor bases in every single match of the first round of the biggest tournament in SC2 that affects players' entire year of results because of the way WCS is set up.
On June 13 2013 10:57 FeyFey wrote: bo1 on untested maps ? Can someone tell em its not BW we are playing. Oh well atleast Ro16 can be really funny now.
you really think that the maps are not tested by hundred of KeSPA players beforehand?
there have been complaints about insufficient testing period for plenty of PL maps in the past
and this is OSL, an individual league
it's fairly probable that it hasn't been sufficiently tested, but that doesn't mean the map will be horribly imba
On June 13 2013 11:06 Gary Oak wrote: Best of 1? Seriously? Ugh, that's so incredibly disappointing. Code S quality went up by orders of magnitude when they switched away from the crappy Bo1 format. I miss GOM already.
This is why blizzard should impose a universal format. Its slightly different in each region or whether gom/kespa are running the korea one lol.
They should just have ro32/16 as double elim groups, bo3. Then playoffs. Same for "challenger" league. But I think the only way blizz could get everyone working together was to allow them some wiggle room with formats and maps.
Really the map pool, map selection process and veto rules should all be the same too, which ever region you play in.
I would also love to see "Premier League" be all offline, in every region but thats a lot to hope for. Wouldn't be so difficult to force players to have to live in the region they wish to play, in order to be able to play the event completely offline. I mean does MVP play in EU region from Korea? Probably not.
before someone goes on a rant about Bo1 again remind yourself that OGN is a TV channel with many shows a day and they simply do not have time for 5 Bo3s a day.
BO1 is so terrible. I don't understand why they had to do that. The groups are going to be so short and way more volatile. I can understand the excitement of seeing some upsets, but I'd rather have people be awarded for higher skill.
Eh, I don't think a Bo1 is a good idea. Too much randomness for a tournament that's supposed to thoroughly test the skills of each player, not just their ability to execute/scout a clever all in. But time will tell.
On June 13 2013 10:05 LuckyMacro wrote: Not sure if I'd consider group E the group of death, maybe if fantasy and jangbi were both like how they were in BW. Although they do play some nice SC2 sometimes. Kind of excited for the rain vs bomber, depending on which bomber shows up
Ditto, Life and Losira seem like easy favorites. Group G is the only group where I can't predict a favorite. Parting would be my choice if I had to make one, but even that I question considering his ex-teammate Squirtle is there, and Squirtle will probably teach his current teammate YongHwa a thing or two about how Parting plays. And Spernova only has to play TvP so there's that too
On June 13 2013 11:21 BLinD-RawR wrote: before someone goes on a rant about Bo1 again remind yourself that OGN is a TV channel with many shows a day and they simply do not have time for 5 Bo3s a day.
it sucks but thats the way it is.
but that's what they will do in RO16.. with 6 matches instead of 5
On June 13 2013 11:21 BLinD-RawR wrote: before someone goes on a rant about Bo1 again remind yourself that OGN is a TV channel with many shows a day and they simply do not have time for 5 Bo3s a day.
it sucks but thats the way it is.
if that was the case then ro16 would also be bo1. theirs actually 0 reason for it to be bo1.
On June 13 2013 11:21 BLinD-RawR wrote: before someone goes on a rant about Bo1 again remind yourself that OGN is a TV channel with many shows a day and they simply do not have time for 5 Bo3s a day.
it sucks but thats the way it is.
if that was the case then ro16 would also be bo1. theirs actually 0 reason for it to be bo1.
it's always been bo1 seems like a pretty good reason to me.
On June 13 2013 11:06 Gary Oak wrote: Best of 1? Seriously? Ugh, that's so incredibly disappointing. Code S quality went up by orders of magnitude when they switched away from the crappy Bo1 format. I miss GOM already.
This is why blizzard should impose a universal format. Its slightly different in each region or whether gom/kespa are running the korea one lol.
They should just have ro32/16 as double elim groups, bo3. Then playoffs. Same for "challenger" league. But I think the only way blizz could get everyone working together was to allow them some wiggle room with formats and maps.
Really the map pool, map selection process and veto rules should all be the same too, which ever region you play in.
I would also love to see "Premier League" be all offline, in every region but thats a lot to hope for. Wouldn't be so difficult to force players to have to live in the region they wish to play, in order to be able to play the event completely offline. I mean does MVP play in EU region from Korea? Probably not.
Formats should be universal, yes. I know OGN and GOM are rivals, so it strikes me as pretty hilarious that this gaffe by OGN is making GOM look so much better by comparison. I also agree with the region thing. You should play in the region you're from, and it should be 100% offline. I thought players like MVP playing in Europe was really stupid to begin with.
On June 13 2013 11:21 BLinD-RawR wrote: before someone goes on a rant about Bo1 again remind yourself that OGN is a TV channel with many shows a day and they simply do not have time for 5 Bo3s a day.
it sucks but thats the way it is.
if that was the case then ro16 would also be bo1. theirs actually 0 reason for it to be bo1.
it's always been bo1 seems like a pretty good reason to me.
that's not a good reason LOL when something is bad you fix it.
On June 13 2013 11:21 BLinD-RawR wrote: before someone goes on a rant about Bo1 again remind yourself that OGN is a TV channel with many shows a day and they simply do not have time for 5 Bo3s a day.
it sucks but thats the way it is.
if that was the case then ro16 would also be bo1. theirs actually 0 reason for it to be bo1.
wait Ro16 is round robins isn't it, its not right to really call it Bo3.
On June 13 2013 11:21 BLinD-RawR wrote: before someone goes on a rant about Bo1 again remind yourself that OGN is a TV channel with many shows a day and they simply do not have time for 5 Bo3s a day.
it sucks but thats the way it is.
but that's what they will do in RO16.. with 6 matches instead of 5
On June 13 2013 11:21 BLinD-RawR wrote: before someone goes on a rant about Bo1 again remind yourself that OGN is a TV channel with many shows a day and they simply do not have time for 5 Bo3s a day.
it sucks but thats the way it is.
if that was the case then ro16 would also be bo1. theirs actually 0 reason for it to be bo1.
it's always been bo1 seems like a pretty good reason to me.
BO1.... sux... PvP in BO1 oh god... And for me BO1 benefits to protosses... For me: Group E is the group of deah cuz the most exciting, Group G is clearly the most undecided group and the group D is by far the most boring group...
On June 13 2013 11:21 BLinD-RawR wrote: before someone goes on a rant about Bo1 again remind yourself that OGN is a TV channel with many shows a day and they simply do not have time for 5 Bo3s a day.
it sucks but thats the way it is.
if that was the case then ro16 would also be bo1. theirs actually 0 reason for it to be bo1.
it's always been bo1 seems like a pretty good reason to me.
the GSL of 2011 was bo1 in the ro32
Yeah, and no one wants to go back to that. Almost Everyone agreed that when GSL moved away from bo1 that it was a good decision, and it is.
I'm very in favour of format differences between GSL and OSL otherwise they are the same thing. But Bo1... We will see a lot of favourites not make the ro16
WTF BEST OF 1? WTF AND Gwanganri (OSL unique), Anaconda (OSL unique) are really bad maps. i think gom has done a much much better job. and im putting money on innovation
On June 13 2013 11:21 BLinD-RawR wrote: before someone goes on a rant about Bo1 again remind yourself that OGN is a TV channel with many shows a day and they simply do not have time for 5 Bo3s a day.
it sucks but thats the way it is.
if that was the case then ro16 would also be bo1. theirs actually 0 reason for it to be bo1.
it's always been bo1 seems like a pretty good reason to me.
the GSL of 2011 was bo1 in the ro32
Yeah, and no one wants to go back to that. Everyone agreed that when GSL moved away from bo1 that it was a good decision, and it is.
It's pretty cool how the GSL format has evolved over the years. I think it's pretty much perfect now, maybe some minor alterations to deciding the 4 players who get their own groups in group selection.
On June 13 2013 11:21 BLinD-RawR wrote: before someone goes on a rant about Bo1 again remind yourself that OGN is a TV channel with many shows a day and they simply do not have time for 5 Bo3s a day.
it sucks but thats the way it is.
if that was the case then ro16 would also be bo1. theirs actually 0 reason for it to be bo1.
it's always been bo1 seems like a pretty good reason to me.
the GSL of 2011 was bo1 in the ro32
Yeah, and no one wants to go back to that. Everyone agreed that when GSL moved away from bo1 that it was a good decision, and it is.
E it's pretty clear JangBang and Life will go on. I understand it's called the group of death because it has Fantasy, etc. but B and H are far, far more even and I have no idea who will go through in either of those. In the rest you always know at least one player who will make it for sure.
On June 13 2013 11:47 BisuDagger wrote: Did I miss the part where Bisu didn't qualify. When did that happen?
We're so used to it even in BW lol.
On June 13 2013 11:52 Aserrin wrote: The hardest groups IMO are B and H.
E it's pretty clear JangBang and Life will go on. I understand it's called the group of death because it has Fantasy, etc. but B and H are far, far more even and I have no idea who will go through in either of those. In the rest you always know at least one player who will make it for sure.
You really think Alicia and Fantasy don't have a chance against JangBi? I don't know man.
Lots of people in this thread have never watched an OSL before I see. Just think, it used to only be 24 players in the dual tournament. Having 32 is like cheating.
On June 13 2013 11:21 BLinD-RawR wrote: before someone goes on a rant about Bo1 again remind yourself that OGN is a TV channel with many shows a day and they simply do not have time for 5 Bo3s a day.
it sucks but thats the way it is.
if that was the case then ro16 would also be bo1. theirs actually 0 reason for it to be bo1.
it's always been bo1 seems like a pretty good reason to me.
the GSL of 2011 was bo1 in the ro32
Yeah, and no one wants to go back to that. Everyone agreed that when GSL moved away from bo1 that it was a good decision, and it is.
Be careful saying everyone, I prefer prepared Bo1's. It makes the matches that much more intense and favours those who prepare the most. It's the opposite of the MLG/DH structure of a shit ton of generic games with little preparation. With the bigger maps and longer games these days Bo1 can work; as it did in BW and still does in proleague.
On June 13 2013 11:21 BLinD-RawR wrote: before someone goes on a rant about Bo1 again remind yourself that OGN is a TV channel with many shows a day and they simply do not have time for 5 Bo3s a day.
it sucks but thats the way it is.
if that was the case then ro16 would also be bo1. theirs actually 0 reason for it to be bo1.
it's always been bo1 seems like a pretty good reason to me.
the GSL of 2011 was bo1 in the ro32
Yeah, and no one wants to go back to that. Everyone agreed that when GSL moved away from bo1 that it was a good decision, and it is.
Be careful saying everyone, I prefer prepared Bo1's. It makes the matches that much more intense and favours those who prepare the most. It's the opposite of the MLG/DH structure of a shit ton of generic games with little preparation. With the bigger maps and longer games these days Bo1 can work; as it did in BW and still does in proleague.
If all-ins weren't so effective in SC2 I'd agree with you. But I bet that we'll see cheese in at least 2/3 of the games. And that will suck hard.
On June 13 2013 11:21 BLinD-RawR wrote: before someone goes on a rant about Bo1 again remind yourself that OGN is a TV channel with many shows a day and they simply do not have time for 5 Bo3s a day.
it sucks but thats the way it is.
if that was the case then ro16 would also be bo1. theirs actually 0 reason for it to be bo1.
it's always been bo1 seems like a pretty good reason to me.
the GSL of 2011 was bo1 in the ro32
Yeah, and no one wants to go back to that. Everyone agreed that when GSL moved away from bo1 that it was a good decision, and it is.
Be careful saying everyone, I prefer prepared Bo1's. It makes the matches that much more intense and favours those who prepare the most. It's the opposite of the MLG/DH structure of a shit ton of generic games with little preparation. With the bigger maps and longer games these days Bo1 can work; as it did in BW and still does in proleague.
If all-ins weren't so effective in SC2 I'd agree with you. But I bet that we'll see cheese in at least 2/3 of the games. And that will suck hard.
if players can't win more than 1 out of 3 games they probably don't deserve to advance anyways.
bo1 group stages makes for more anticipated / exciting box games imo but personally i don't mind either format.
On June 13 2013 11:54 vesicular wrote: Lots of people in this thread have never watched an OSL before I see. Just think, it used to only be 24 players in the dual tournament. Having 32 is like cheating.
It clearly shows after reading a lot of the the comments.
On June 13 2013 12:02 ZenithM wrote: Best of 1 is cool. Let's see which players will prepare the dirtiest builds to cheese out guys like Flash or Innovation haha :D
every player have to prepare only 3 maps
the first map only 1 matchup
the second map 2 (max) matchups
and the 3rd surely is the least prepared
so i'll expect cheese only in the last game.
and if the interview ask the players their opinion about the format, it would be great
On June 13 2013 11:21 BLinD-RawR wrote: before someone goes on a rant about Bo1 again remind yourself that OGN is a TV channel with many shows a day and they simply do not have time for 5 Bo3s a day.
it sucks but thats the way it is.
if that was the case then ro16 would also be bo1. theirs actually 0 reason for it to be bo1.
it's always been bo1 seems like a pretty good reason to me.
the GSL of 2011 was bo1 in the ro32
Yeah, and no one wants to go back to that. Everyone agreed that when GSL moved away from bo1 that it was a good decision, and it is.
On June 13 2013 11:21 BLinD-RawR wrote: before someone goes on a rant about Bo1 again remind yourself that OGN is a TV channel with many shows a day and they simply do not have time for 5 Bo3s a day.
it sucks but thats the way it is.
if that was the case then ro16 would also be bo1. theirs actually 0 reason for it to be bo1.
it's always been bo1 seems like a pretty good reason to me.
the GSL of 2011 was bo1 in the ro32
Yeah, and no one wants to go back to that. Everyone agreed that when GSL moved away from bo1 that it was a good decision, and it is.
Be careful saying everyone, I prefer prepared Bo1's. It makes the matches that much more intense and favours those who prepare the most. It's the opposite of the MLG/DH structure of a shit ton of generic games with little preparation. With the bigger maps and longer games these days Bo1 can work; as it did in BW and still does in proleague.
Well obviously not everyone as it every single living being in the whole world, but the vast majority.
On June 13 2013 11:54 Aserrin wrote: It's not that JangBi has become really good, it's also that Fanta and Losira aren't that good, especially vs P.
I'll give you that when it comes to Losira. Especially if JangBi takes to the skies. I'd like to see him be super aggressive. As for Fantasy.. I think that's more of a toss-up man (no pun intended). JangBi and Fantasy tend to have a lot of close games usually so I think we'll see Fantasy rise to the occasion to give us a good game.
One thing I really don't understand : the WCS system is supposed to be the same for each country... Why didn't they just apply the same format than GSL ?
I think the fact that this format is different is really bad and is a step backward. Uniformization should be the key to a WCS system and instead, we just have different maps and different tournament format.
And I was hoping for Blizzard to unify the most the 3 WCS tournaments by making the closest formats possible between the regions. This one will be absurdly far from the other ones.
On June 13 2013 09:56 xuanzue wrote: it seems to be bo1
the group E bring all the hype
No, only one map is listed because loser picks next map.
Format has been confirmed to copy GSL's already, so BO3s as normal.
They're playing 2 groups a day. It's bo1.
Wow really, OSL's format is FUBAR.
They are no doubt constricted by sponsorship. Or lack of thereof.
On June 13 2013 12:07 Caihead wrote: Some how group G and H has 6/8 ESF.
I hope my reputation as an anti-elephanist would allow me to say following without stirring any shit up: i think theyre just trying to ensure there are ESF guys in the playoffs for excitement purposes.
This should be the last WCS event that OGN get's to host. Blizzard should just let GOM do it from now on and let the OSL be it's own separate event. bo1 and unknown maps is really absurd.
KeSPA must be really flexing their political power now that they've got a such a big pool of talented players.
On June 13 2013 12:07 Caihead wrote: Some how group G and H has 6/8 ESF.
I hope my reputation as an anti-elephanist would allow me to say following without stirring any shit up: i think theyre just trying to ensure there are ESF guys in the playoffs for excitement purposes.
On June 13 2013 12:13 movac wrote: This should be the last WCS event that OGN get's to host. Blizzard should just let GOM do it from now on and let the OSL be it's own separate event. bo1 and unknown maps is really absurd.
KeSPA must be really flexing their political power now that they've got a such a big pool of talented players.
What this bo1 group format does is what pro league does, gives a player one week to prepare for a specific player and map and do their absolute best. This will probably heavily favor kespa or anyone who plays in pro league. It is different but it is no more random than a bo3 IMO because it is a week in between each game.
Stop talking about group of death, it's bo1 format in the first round so it's completely pointless and quite frankly stupid to talk about. It's proven time and time again(for example the last sc2 OSL) that at this lvl of gameplay, when introducing bo1 it almost always creates significantly surprising results, because a bo1 is so volatile.
On June 13 2013 12:12 HonorZ wrote: One thing I really don't understand : the WCS system is supposed to be the same for each country... Why didn't they just apply the same format than GSL ?
Because it's not a GSL, it's an OSL, which has been running (basically) the same way for a decade. And I thought everyone on TL was pissed at WCS "taking over" GSL? Now you *want* WCS to interfere with OSL? Talk about talking out of both sides of your mouth.
On June 13 2013 12:12 HonorZ wrote: One thing I really don't understand : the WCS system is supposed to be the same for each country... Why didn't they just apply the same format than GSL ?
Because it's not a GSL, it's an OSL, which has been running (basically) the same way for a decade. And I thought everyone on TL was pissed at WCS "taking over" GSL? Now you *want* WCS to interfere with OSL? Talk about talking out of both sides of your mouth.
I think that would be operating under the assumption that the majority was okay when the OSL was using a Bo1 format, which from my observation, wasn't the case.
I don't recall the last OSL and the relative skill levels of the players, but I feel that this format could really lend itself to some very interesting upsets in the first group stage. The second one should actually favor the better player, as it's an extra match for everyone compared to the GSL format. Should be very interesting.
On June 13 2013 09:56 xuanzue wrote: it seems to be bo1
the group E bring all the hype
No, only one map is listed because loser picks next map.
Format has been confirmed to copy GSL's already, so BO3s as normal.
They're playing 2 groups a day. It's bo1.
Wow really, OSL's format is FUBAR.
They are no doubt constricted by sponsorship. Or lack of thereof.
On June 13 2013 12:07 Caihead wrote: Some how group G and H has 6/8 ESF.
I hope my reputation as an anti-elephanist would allow me to say following without stirring any shit up: i think theyre just trying to ensure there are ESF guys in the playoffs for excitement purposes.
either that or the RNG gods be praised.
as much as I'd like to stand in the righteous corner and call for fair competition yada yada yada i think when the fate of a 13 year old franchise is on the line there is no place for RNG.
On June 13 2013 11:21 BLinD-RawR wrote: before someone goes on a rant about Bo1 again remind yourself that OGN is a TV channel with many shows a day and they simply do not have time for 5 Bo3s a day.
it sucks but thats the way it is.
if that was the case then ro16 would also be bo1. theirs actually 0 reason for it to be bo1.
it's always been bo1 seems like a pretty good reason to me.
the GSL of 2011 was bo1 in the ro32
Yeah, and no one wants to go back to that. Everyone agreed that when GSL moved away from bo1 that it was a good decision, and it is.
Be careful saying everyone, I prefer prepared Bo1's. It makes the matches that much more intense and favours those who prepare the most. It's the opposite of the MLG/DH structure of a shit ton of generic games with little preparation. With the bigger maps and longer games these days Bo1 can work; as it did in BW and still does in proleague.
I too like watching protosses die to a 2 gate proxy on their ramp.
On June 13 2013 09:56 xuanzue wrote: it seems to be bo1
the group E bring all the hype
No, only one map is listed because loser picks next map.
Format has been confirmed to copy GSL's already, so BO3s as normal.
They're playing 2 groups a day. It's bo1.
Wow really, OSL's format is FUBAR.
They are no doubt constricted by sponsorship. Or lack of thereof.
On June 13 2013 12:07 Caihead wrote: Some how group G and H has 6/8 ESF.
I hope my reputation as an anti-elephanist would allow me to say following without stirring any shit up: i think theyre just trying to ensure there are ESF guys in the playoffs for excitement purposes.
either that or the RNG gods be praised.
as much as I'd like to stand in the righteous corner and call for fair competition yada yada yada i think when the fate of a 13 year old franchise is on the line there is no place for RNG.
I find it odd that Blizz didn't ask GSL and OSL to have a similar format. Kinda weird to have essentially the same tournament (if we continue to call them WCS Korea instead of GSL and OSL respectively) have alternating formats. And GOM will handle Challenger league, so it's only Premier league that will have changing formats. Uniformity would have been nice, though I do respect the decision to have each league retain some form of identity.
Overall it's not a big change though. Everyone is crying about Bo1, but you'd be surprised how well it has worked so far in OSL. Although it does give Shine a chance to make it to the semis, haha
At the very least it gives YuGiOh a chance too >.>
I consider group G due to the fact that both Parting and Squirtle are inside, along with Yonghwa, who is unpredictable and Supernova, who is really strong against protoss.
On June 13 2013 12:29 lichter wrote: I find it odd that Blizz didn't ask GSL and OSL to have a similar format. Kinda weird to have essentially the same tournament (if we continue to call them WCS Korea instead of GSL and OSL respectively) have alternating formats. And GOM will handle Challenger league, so it's only Premier league that will have changing formats. Uniformity would have been nice, though I do respect the decision to have each league retain some form of identity.
Overall it's not a big change though. Everyone is crying about Bo1, but you'd be surprised how well it has worked so far in OSL. Although it does give Shine a chance to make it to the semis, haha
At the very least it gives YuGiOh a chance too >.>
On June 13 2013 11:06 Gary Oak wrote: Best of 1? Seriously? Ugh, that's so incredibly disappointing. Code S quality went up by orders of magnitude when they switched away from the crappy Bo1 format. I miss GOM already.
Gom has not at any point had the same bo1 system of the OSL. If they did bo1 groups all at once then it would be bad but in the OSL each player plays 1 game a week vs a known player on a known map. That is NOT random and does not increase the odds of good players losing. If it does anything it gives pro league players an advantage because it is exactly what pro league players do every week.
On June 13 2013 11:06 Gary Oak wrote: Best of 1? Seriously? Ugh, that's so incredibly disappointing. Code S quality went up by orders of magnitude when they switched away from the crappy Bo1 format. I miss GOM already.
Gom has not at any point had the same bo1 system of the OSL. If they did bo1 groups all at once then it would be bad but in the OSL each player plays 1 game a week vs a known player on a known map. That is NOT random and does not increase the odds of good players losing. If it does anything it gives pro league players an advantage because it is exactly what pro league players do every week.
On June 13 2013 12:13 movac wrote: This should be the last WCS event that OGN get's to host. Blizzard should just let GOM do it from now on and let the OSL be it's own separate event. bo1 and unknown maps is really absurd.
KeSPA must be really flexing their political power now that they've got a such a big pool of talented players.
On June 13 2013 11:06 Gary Oak wrote: Best of 1? Seriously? Ugh, that's so incredibly disappointing. Code S quality went up by orders of magnitude when they switched away from the crappy Bo1 format. I miss GOM already.
Gom has not at any point had the same bo1 system of the OSL. If they did bo1 groups all at once then it would be bad but in the OSL each player plays 1 game a week vs a known player on a known map. That is NOT random and does not increase the odds of good players losing. If it does anything it gives pro league players an advantage because it is exactly what pro league players do every week.
This. Also, we already went through this in WoL and it turned out fine:
On June 13 2013 11:21 BLinD-RawR wrote: before someone goes on a rant about Bo1 again remind yourself that OGN is a TV channel with many shows a day and they simply do not have time for 5 Bo3s a day.
it sucks but thats the way it is.
if that was the case then ro16 would also be bo1. theirs actually 0 reason for it to be bo1.
it's always been bo1 seems like a pretty good reason to me.
the GSL of 2011 was bo1 in the ro32
Yeah, and no one wants to go back to that. Everyone agreed that when GSL moved away from bo1 that it was a good decision, and it is.
Be careful saying everyone, I prefer prepared Bo1's. It makes the matches that much more intense and favours those who prepare the most. It's the opposite of the MLG/DH structure of a shit ton of generic games with little preparation. With the bigger maps and longer games these days Bo1 can work; as it did in BW and still does in proleague.
I too like watching protosses die to a 2 gate proxy on their ramp.
If it's a Bo1 on a 2 player map and they don't check for proxies, they deserve to lose.
On June 13 2013 12:43 BisuDagger wrote: I think I'm gonna jump on the hate train and say OGN's HORRENDOUS tournament format is the reason why Bisu has never won an OSL, clearly.
On June 13 2013 12:43 BisuDagger wrote: I think I'm gonna jump on the hate train and say OGN's HORRENDOUS tournament format is the reason why Bisu has never won an OSL, clearly.
I bet Shine wins an OSL before Bisu does, har har har helps that he's in OSL and not in Code B-isu
Not like cheese was any less effective in BW, some managed to won SIX starleagues, including consecutive ones
How many upsets that the last OSL produce with essentially the same format? zero (Last LLWWW Flash though) One year later, with a much better game, better maps, way better players lineup, how come this edition is not supposed to be awesome?
On June 13 2013 11:06 Gary Oak wrote: Best of 1? Seriously? Ugh, that's so incredibly disappointing. Code S quality went up by orders of magnitude when they switched away from the crappy Bo1 format. I miss GOM already.
Gom has not at any point had the same bo1 system of the OSL. If they did bo1 groups all at once then it would be bad but in the OSL each player plays 1 game a week vs a known player on a known map. That is NOT random and does not increase the odds of good players losing. If it does anything it gives pro league players an advantage because it is exactly what pro league players do every week.
The schedule says it will all be played in 1 day.
If the whole group is played on one single day then i will agree this format is a mistake because the whole point was preparation time for each game over a week.
On June 13 2013 11:21 BLinD-RawR wrote: before someone goes on a rant about Bo1 again remind yourself that OGN is a TV channel with many shows a day and they simply do not have time for 5 Bo3s a day.
it sucks but thats the way it is.
if that was the case then ro16 would also be bo1. theirs actually 0 reason for it to be bo1.
it's always been bo1 seems like a pretty good reason to me.
the GSL of 2011 was bo1 in the ro32
Yeah, and no one wants to go back to that. Everyone agreed that when GSL moved away from bo1 that it was a good decision, and it is.
Be careful saying everyone, I prefer prepared Bo1's. It makes the matches that much more intense and favours those who prepare the most. It's the opposite of the MLG/DH structure of a shit ton of generic games with little preparation. With the bigger maps and longer games these days Bo1 can work; as it did in BW and still does in proleague.
I would say testing Bo1 is worth a try ... atleast 2 years ago, but it was tried often enough and I think they found the perfect system already for sc2. In BW bo1 worked, but sc2 plays out faster and is less forgiving in the early game and the skill level isn't there to prevent straight BO wins. Not that bw was really forgiving.
On June 13 2013 12:45 Arceus wrote: Not like cheese was any less effective in BW, some managed to won SIX starleagues, including consecutive ones
How many upsets that the last OSL produce with essentially the same format? zero (Last LLWWW Flash though) One year later, with a much better game, better maps, way better players lineup, how come this edition is not supposed to be awesome?
On June 13 2013 12:45 Arceus wrote: Not like cheese was any less effective in BW, some managed to won SIX starleagues, including consecutive ones
How many upsets that the last OSL produce with essentially the same format? zero (Last LLWWW Flash though) One year later, with a much better game, better maps, way better players lineup, how come this edition is not supposed to be awesome?
At least the maps were normal.
man you must be so wise judging the maps by looking at its thumbnails (btw maps like Lurker Ridge or Shitfinder werent so normal though)
On June 13 2013 12:43 BisuDagger wrote: I think I'm gonna jump on the hate train and say OGN's HORRENDOUS tournament format is the reason why Bisu has never won an OSL, clearly.
I bet Shine wins an OSL before Bisu does, har har har helps that he's in OSL and not in Code B-isu
Hey I was saying things that weren't true, not things that were hurtful.
On June 13 2013 12:45 Arceus wrote: Not like cheese was any less effective in BW, some managed to won SIX starleagues, including consecutive ones
How many upsets that the last OSL produce with essentially the same format? zero (Last LLWWW Flash though) One year later, with a much better game, better maps, way better players lineup, how come this edition is not supposed to be awesome?
At least the maps were normal.
man you must be so wise judging the maps by looking at its thumbnails (btw maps like Lurker Ridge or Shitfinder werent so normal though)
I didn't just look at their thumbnails. They're not normal maps by any stretch of the imagination. I'm not against concept maps, especially in team leagues. But having entirely untested concept maps for a bo1 for the most important tournament in the world is just bad.
This isn't even like an OSL of the past where if you get eliminated, you can always try again for the next one. Being eliminated early means you lose the chance to go to the global finals, and if you lose 1 more bo3, you could drop out of WCS altogether, meaning you lose out on Code S for the next season as well. It's a big fucking deal.
I really don't like the fact it's Bo1 in the Ro32... I don't think it'll let the best player's through, but just whoever prepares the best cheese/build. It feels... wrong that the rest of WCS has Bo3 for this part of the tournament.
On June 13 2013 12:43 BisuDagger wrote: I think I'm gonna jump on the hate train and say OGN's HORRENDOUS tournament format is the reason why Bisu has never won an OSL, clearly.
I bet Shine wins an OSL before Bisu does, har har har helps that he's in OSL and not in Code B-isu
Hey I was saying things that weren't true, not things that were hurtful.
Aren't you making the SKT vs KT LR today? I am expecting some epic SKT fanboy pics don't let me down
On June 13 2013 12:45 Arceus wrote: Not like cheese was any less effective in BW, some managed to won SIX starleagues, including consecutive ones
How many upsets that the last OSL produce with essentially the same format? zero (Last LLWWW Flash though) One year later, with a much better game, better maps, way better players lineup, how come this edition is not supposed to be awesome?
At least the maps were normal.
man you must be so wise judging the maps by looking at its thumbnails (btw maps like Lurker Ridge or Shitfinder werent so normal though)
I didn't just look at their thumbnails. They're not normal maps by any stretch of the imagination. I'm not against concept maps, especially in team leagues. But having entirely untested concept maps for a bo1 for the most important tournament in the world is just bad.
This isn't even like an OSL of the past where if you get eliminated, you can always try again for the next one. Being eliminated early means you lose the chance to go to the global finals, and if you lose 1 more bo3, you could drop out of WCS altogether, meaning you lose out on Code S for the next season as well. It's a big fucking deal.
apparently you havent - played the map - watched pros play the map
On June 13 2013 13:04 DRTnOOber wrote: I really don't like the fact it's Bo1 in the Ro32... I don't think it'll let the best player's through, but just whoever prepares the best cheese/build. It feels... wrong that the rest of WCS has Bo3 for this part of the tournament.
Preparing builds, dealing with high stress environment, responding correctly to builds on the fly, executing all of that with good fundamentals, these are all a part of what makes the best player. Doing the same macro build and relying on your fundamentals every single game is a major weakness of many players (such as Flash). Having a Bo1 is ample ground for storylines and upsets, which by-the-way, is not necessarily a bad thing. If everyone knew exactly who was going to win because every series was a BoX lim -> infinity, why even watch the matches? How would you have diversity in fandom? Why would anyone cheer for the underdog? Bo1 caters to an aggressive, smart, and planned out style where as Bo3+ caters to a safe, map-by-map, and reliable style. The former is alot more fun to watch for alot of people. Bo1's are also alot more exciting because everything is on the line, every Bo1 is treated like match point in a Bo3+ series in the view of the fans.
I hope to god the map pool for Code A and Starleague aren't different, wouldn't surprise me though. Seems like every GOM specific map was removed for this season.
I'm guessing it's bo1 because OSL will be televised in Korea? I don't mind personally, I never have enough time to watch all the round of 32 games and just watch games I'm excited for. This time I can watch them all.
On June 13 2013 12:12 HonorZ wrote: One thing I really don't understand : the WCS system is supposed to be the same for each country... Why didn't they just apply the same format than GSL ?
Because it's not a GSL, it's an OSL, which has been running (basically) the same way for a decade. And I thought everyone on TL was pissed at WCS "taking over" GSL? Now you *want* WCS to interfere with OSL? Talk about talking out of both sides of your mouth.
It's almost like there are multiple people posting with different opinions!!! WHO KNEW?????
On June 13 2013 12:43 BisuDagger wrote: I think I'm gonna jump on the hate train and say OGN's HORRENDOUS tournament format is the reason why Bisu has never won an OSL, clearly.
I bet Shine wins an OSL before Bisu does, har har har helps that he's in OSL and not in Code B-isu
Hey I was saying things that weren't true, not things that were hurtful.
Aren't you making the SKT vs KT LR today? I am expecting some epic SKT fanboy pics don't let me down
I have work, I can't LR or hype at all! But expect only the best from SKT as they dominate KT.
hmm in the best of one I am cautiously optimistic of yugioh's chances for one thing while soulkey is really, really, really, good at zvz. it's also yugioh's best matchup so if he had to face any player of soulkey's caliber i'd far prefer it too be a zvz then any other matchup with of course zvp being the next best thing.
yugioh's match vs gumiho makes me far more confident then I was about his zvt and flash really doesn't seem unbeatable or all that great to me. so either ragnarok or yugioh taking him out wouldn't surprise me terribly if it's ragnarok that yugioh has to face to advance, than well I think I have already said this, but I really like yugioh's chances in a zvz.
Bo1 arguments can basically be boiled down to this
Competitive standpoint - Bo1 is worse than Bo3, unarguable. The more games there are the higher the chance for the best players to advance.
Spectator standpoint - Some people might prefer bo1, reasons for this may be:
- not enough time to watch all the ro32 games - more pressure on each game
Consistency with other WCS leagues - Casuals might get confused, doesn't bother me personally. WCS KR was already slightly different due to the much higher number of players coming up through Code A every season.
We'll just have to deal with it. OGN has announced that they're unable to change the format at this point.
Hey guys I know there's been a lot of talk about this. Let me just address a few points. In general As many are pointing out, we are keeping true to the past OSL formats. There are arguments for uniformity as now we are in the era of WCS, and this is duly noted. We, and I am sure other parties as well, will be monitoring things this year to see what to conform and why. However, for the time being, the situation has allowed us to keep our character, and as we venture into the new WCS with excitement, we're very thankful we can keep that. It may not be for everyone, and it may not be a good fit for SC2 or be changed in the future, but we want to see how it works out before jumping to changes. GomTV has been successful with their formula for the GSL, and all the props to them for that. I just hope OGN will also be given a chance to stick to what we've done successfully before finalizing any modifications (and hopefully improvements). We hope you understand and appreciate your patience. Regarding the Ro32: Yes, we understand the concerns. I do not think bo1's have no benefits, but your concerns are valid. I will admit though, currently we are not putting much time or effort into changing it immediately. This is because, even if we wanted to, the logistics are not feasible for this season. I'm not guaranteeing that it will change in the future, just want to admit that right now given the feasibility of things, we aren't focusing on changing the content, but how to better present that content. Throughout all this, we will definitely be monitoring all aspects, and I think it's safe to say that all the parties involved in the WCS will see vast improvement over the year/next year. Thanks for chiming in. We're listening, you can trust me on that one.
I like bo3 more since you can get series like Gumiho vs Losira or Fantasy vs TRUE where the tempo keeps rising after each game as they start to figure each other out and come up with new solutions for each map choice.
Oh well. It's been decided so we'll see how it goes.
This is so incredible dumb because it's not a matter of SC2 but LoL. If it was a normal schedule with games it would cut into prime time in Korea and the LoL program would have to change.
So far they haven't even started with the games, so there IS time to change this. But because of the reasoning done above, they can't.
So we are going to have 3 WCS America, 3 WCS Europe and 2 WCS Korea with all the same format and 1 WCS Korea that is different. This just seems bad already and then you see it is a BO1 in the ro32 and it makes it look even worse. WCS needs to have all the same map pool and all the same structure in my opinion. I also agree with the other person in that GOM should do WCS and OSL should just be a separate tournament or even the other way around.
On June 13 2013 13:04 DRTnOOber wrote: I really don't like the fact it's Bo1 in the Ro32... I don't think it'll let the best player's through, but just whoever prepares the best cheese/build. It feels... wrong that the rest of WCS has Bo3 for this part of the tournament.
Preparing builds, dealing with high stress environment, responding correctly to builds on the fly, executing all of that with good fundamentals, these are all a part of what makes the best player. Doing the same macro build and relying on your fundamentals every single game is a major weakness of many players (such as Flash). Having a Bo1 is ample ground for storylines and upsets, which by-the-way, is not necessarily a bad thing. If everyone knew exactly who was going to win because every series was a BoX lim -> infinity, why even watch the matches? How would you have diversity in fandom? Why would anyone cheer for the underdog? Bo1 caters to an aggressive, smart, and planned out style where as Bo3+ caters to a safe, map-by-map, and reliable style. The former is alot more fun to watch for alot of people. Bo1's are also alot more exciting because everything is on the line, every Bo1 is treated like match point in a Bo3+ series in the view of the fans.
Bo1s are only ample ground for story lines and upsets because of the randomness included with them. Will you think the same way if Flash gets cheesed out by Ragnorok and Yugioh (a very possible situation in this format)?
Bo3s forced players to adapt to their opponent's strategies opposed to the BO1 where they each pick a strategy and the better choice + execution is often enough to just win.
Already happened. Am I upset that flash lost in that tournament? Yes. Am I hating on the format for it? No. And as you can see from the recommend games poll, they were great games to watch.
On June 13 2013 13:04 DRTnOOber wrote: I really don't like the fact it's Bo1 in the Ro32... I don't think it'll let the best player's through, but just whoever prepares the best cheese/build. It feels... wrong that the rest of WCS has Bo3 for this part of the tournament.
Preparing builds, dealing with high stress environment, responding correctly to builds on the fly, executing all of that with good fundamentals, these are all a part of what makes the best player. Doing the same macro build and relying on your fundamentals every single game is a major weakness of many players (such as Flash). Having a Bo1 is ample ground for storylines and upsets, which by-the-way, is not necessarily a bad thing. If everyone knew exactly who was going to win because every series was a BoX lim -> infinity, why even watch the matches? How would you have diversity in fandom? Why would anyone cheer for the underdog? Bo1 caters to an aggressive, smart, and planned out style where as Bo3+ caters to a safe, map-by-map, and reliable style. The former is alot more fun to watch for alot of people. Bo1's are also alot more exciting because everything is on the line, every Bo1 is treated like match point in a Bo3+ series in the view of the fans.
Bo1s are only ample ground for story lines and upsets because of the randomness included with them. Will you think the same way if Flash gets cheesed out by Ragnorok and Yugioh (a very possible situation in this format)?
Bo3s forced players to adapt to their opponent's strategies opposed to the BO1 where they each pick a strategy and the better choice + execution is often enough to just win.
Already happened. Am I upset that flash lost in that tournament? Yes. Am I hating on the format for it? No. And as you can see from the recommend games poll, they were great games to watch.
On June 13 2013 13:04 DRTnOOber wrote: I really don't like the fact it's Bo1 in the Ro32... I don't think it'll let the best player's through, but just whoever prepares the best cheese/build. It feels... wrong that the rest of WCS has Bo3 for this part of the tournament.
Preparing builds, dealing with high stress environment, responding correctly to builds on the fly, executing all of that with good fundamentals, these are all a part of what makes the best player. Doing the same macro build and relying on your fundamentals every single game is a major weakness of many players (such as Flash). Having a Bo1 is ample ground for storylines and upsets, which by-the-way, is not necessarily a bad thing. If everyone knew exactly who was going to win because every series was a BoX lim -> infinity, why even watch the matches? How would you have diversity in fandom? Why would anyone cheer for the underdog? Bo1 caters to an aggressive, smart, and planned out style where as Bo3+ caters to a safe, map-by-map, and reliable style. The former is alot more fun to watch for alot of people. Bo1's are also alot more exciting because everything is on the line, every Bo1 is treated like match point in a Bo3+ series in the view of the fans.
Bo1s are only ample ground for story lines and upsets because of the randomness included with them. Will you think the same way if Flash gets cheesed out by Ragnorok and Yugioh (a very possible situation in this format)?
Bo3s forced players to adapt to their opponent's strategies opposed to the BO1 where they each pick a strategy and the better choice + execution is often enough to just win.
Already happened. Am I upset that flash lost in that tournament? Yes. Am I hating on the format for it? No. And as you can see from the recommend games poll, they were great games to watch.
That was one of the best MSL Ro32's!
Any time where Bisu rightfully stomps Shine into the ground is a good time.
On June 13 2013 11:21 BLinD-RawR wrote: before someone goes on a rant about Bo1 again remind yourself that OGN is a TV channel with many shows a day and they simply do not have time for 5 Bo3s a day.
it sucks but thats the way it is.
We all feel so good when BO1 was removed.How can you be sure X is better than Y if there is some kind of BO loss? So stupid and they say "logistic issues"??? How? You knew you have to organize this 3 months AGO and NOW got "logistic issues"??? I wont understand it and dont care if they are TV cannel. If they are not able to do things ok(MLG hi hihi), just GET OUT AND DONT FUCK the best SC2 tournament in the world...
On June 13 2013 11:21 BLinD-RawR wrote: before someone goes on a rant about Bo1 again remind yourself that OGN is a TV channel with many shows a day and they simply do not have time for 5 Bo3s a day.
it sucks but thats the way it is.
We all feel so good when BO1 was removed.How can you be sure X is better than Y if there is some kind of BO loss? So stupid and they say "logistic issues"??? How? You knew you have to organize this 3 months AGO and NOW got "logistic issues"??? I wont understand it and dont care if they are TV cannel. If they are not able to do things ok(MLG hi hihi), just GET OUT AND DONT FUCK the best SC2 tournament in the world...
First of all. OGN isn't Gomtv, why should they care about GSL? This isn't marketed as a GSL and it never was. It's an OSL.
Second of all. Asking OGN to get out? With out OGN SC2 esports there might have never existed because Blizzard would have never even saw South Korea as a market for esports, or that Starcraft as a series could be an esport at all.
Any thoughts on how the Ro32 format will impact Code A? Because all of these guys have to fit back into that system for next season.
I've paid for every single season of everything Gom has done since the GSL started.
This will be the first I don't.
I want regular GSL back. Year round. I guess WCS is just going to eventually ruin basically all of my favorite parts of the SC2 scene.
Good news! This isn't the GSL. It's the OSL. You don't have to pay GOM for this season. Come to think of it, I don't know that you would want to - you can pull the audio and get the higher resolution OGN stream. From what I understand, GOM will be doing what OGN was doing for last season's Code S - streaming from a feed from OGN. (Yes, DoA and Montechristo were casting the GSL... from OGN studios. Never got many viewers. Khaldor referenced this on SotG today.)
On June 13 2013 13:35 Mattumsfox wrote: So we are going to have 3 WCS America, 3 WCS Europe and 2 WCS Korea with all the same format and 1 WCS Korea that is different. This just seems bad already and then you see it is a BO1 in the ro32 and it makes it look even worse. WCS needs to have all the same map pool and all the same structure in my opinion. I also agree with the other person in that GOM should do WCS and OSL should just be a separate tournament or even the other way around.
GSL does not follow the exact same format as the other WCS to my knowledge. Gom got to keep their Code A/Up-Down structure based on previous GSL while WCS AM/EU follow a similar but different format. The GSL Up-Down are part of the next season while WCS Challengers are part of the previous season. Let's just say Blizzard had no say in how either of the two Korean companies handled the tournaments.
Hey guys I know there's been a lot of talk about this. Let me just address a few points. In general As many are pointing out, we are keeping true to the past OSL formats. There are arguments for uniformity as now we are in the era of WCS, and this is duly noted. We, and I am sure other parties as well, will be monitoring things this year to see what to conform and why. However, for the time being, the situation has allowed us to keep our character, and as we venture into the new WCS with excitement, we're very thankful we can keep that. It may not be for everyone, and it may not be a good fit for SC2 or be changed in the future, but we want to see how it works out before jumping to changes. GomTV has been successful with their formula for the GSL, and all the props to them for that. I just hope OGN will also be given a chance to stick to what we've done successfully before finalizing any modifications (and hopefully improvements). We hope you understand and appreciate your patience. Regarding the Ro32: Yes, we understand the concerns. I do not think bo1's have no benefits, but your concerns are valid. I will admit though, currently we are not putting much time or effort into changing it immediately. This is because, even if we wanted to, the logistics are not feasible for this season. I'm not guaranteeing that it will change in the future, just want to admit that right now given the feasibility of things, we aren't focusing on changing the content, but how to better present that content. Throughout all this, we will definitely be monitoring all aspects, and I think it's safe to say that all the parties involved in the WCS will see vast improvement over the year/next year. Thanks for chiming in. We're listening, you can trust me on that one.
Please, Chobra, understad this: If every single WCS out of Korea take this format nad make it succeed its because IT WORKS perfectly. Now, you come and screw it with your unknown "logictics". If you are not prepared,just dont do it, WTF!!! You already know its a shit and almost everyone is pissed. I want to see the best players advance, because I expect the best quality of games from the best players in the world. Dont wanna see flash being dropped, because the Zergs decide to baneling bust him every game. The cheese is not the best way to show your skill and you are promoving this. Where is the LOGICstic here???? Explain yourself better, because NO ONE will understand you.
On June 13 2013 10:57 FeyFey wrote: bo1 on untested maps ? Can someone tell em its not BW we are playing. Oh well atleast Ro16 can be really funny now.
you really think that the maps are not tested by hundred of KeSPA players beforehand?
You think a few KeSPA players and coaches testing them is enough? Because they didn't ever put any imbalanced maps in PL before?
PL maps have been imbalanced for the better and for the worse. It made some great games in the past in BW and to a much smaller but reasonable extent in WoL. Starleague maps have been rather balanced.
On June 13 2013 13:04 DRTnOOber wrote: I really don't like the fact it's Bo1 in the Ro32... I don't think it'll let the best player's through, but just whoever prepares the best cheese/build. It feels... wrong that the rest of WCS has Bo3 for this part of the tournament.
Preparing builds, dealing with high stress environment, responding correctly to builds on the fly, executing all of that with good fundamentals, these are all a part of what makes the best player. Doing the same macro build and relying on your fundamentals every single game is a major weakness of many players (such as Flash). Having a Bo1 is ample ground for storylines and upsets, which by-the-way, is not necessarily a bad thing. If everyone knew exactly who was going to win because every series was a BoX lim -> infinity, why even watch the matches? How would you have diversity in fandom? Why would anyone cheer for the underdog? Bo1 caters to an aggressive, smart, and planned out style where as Bo3+ caters to a safe, map-by-map, and reliable style. The former is alot more fun to watch for alot of people. Bo1's are also alot more exciting because everything is on the line, every Bo1 is treated like match point in a Bo3+ series in the view of the fans.
Bo1s are only ample ground for story lines and upsets because of the randomness included with them. Will you think the same way if Flash gets cheesed out by Ragnorok and Yugioh (a very possible situation in this format)?
Bo3s forced players to adapt to their opponent's strategies opposed to the BO1 where they each pick a strategy and the better choice + execution is often enough to just win.
Already happened. Am I upset that flash lost in that tournament? Yes. Am I hating on the format for it? No. And as you can see from the recommend games poll, they were great games to watch.
This isn't BW. I don't know how good BW BO1s are but SC2 BO1s tend to suck (look at ups and downs).
Sc2 tends to be a little more luck based because of the possibility of cheese/build order wins. So ya bo1 in sc2 is iffy :S though they did have it in the GSL years back so it shouldn't be too bad
Fun fact. If the ro32 in season finals had been played as bo1, Innovation, the eventual champion could not have advanced as 1st from his group, and could even have potentially been eliminated. Mvp, the semi finalist wouldn't have advanced past ro32.
I don't understand the reasoning that because OSL has always done it this way, we should just accept the bo1. No matter what they call it, this will be the Code S for next season. It is the players that make the tournament, not the studio. OSL is pretty much coming in and taking over Code S. not vice versa. For them to make such a big change to the R32 of my favorite tournament is really disheartening. Less games of my favorite players, always terrible.
I'll still watch it and enjoy the games, but i don't have to like it!
The fact that results from this BO1 will carry over to other tournaments with BO3 and vice versa looks so strange from someone who never watched OSL's production before.
Also what is this about LoL being the reason for the scheduling conflict that's keeping them from adjusting the format?
On June 13 2013 14:07 sitromit wrote: Fun fact. If the ro32 in season finals had been played as bo1, Innovation, the eventual champion could not have advanced as 1st from his group, and could even have potentially been eliminated. Mvp, the semi finalist wouldn't have advanced past ro32.
If it was Bo1 the players wouldn't have played the way they did so this is completely irrelevant. That would be like saying "If the last WCS Korea finals was Bo5, Innovation would have won 3-0". You don't know that, players prepare completely differently for different Bo settings.
Hmm don't really like the Systm too much. BO1 always feels like its over before it begins And the randomly chsoen maps could be very unfair in certain situations. Picking the GSL format would have been way more interesting.
On June 13 2013 14:01 Dvriel wrote: Please, Chobra, understad this: If every single WCS out of Korea take this format nad make it succeed its because IT WORKS perfectly. Now, you come and screw it with your unknown "logictics". If you are not prepared,just dont do it, WTF!!! You already know its a shit and almost everyone is pissed. I want to see the best players advance, because I expect the best quality of games from the best players in the world. Dont wanna see flash being dropped, because the Zergs decide to baneling bust him every game. The cheese is not the best way to show your skill and you are promoving this. Where is the LOGICstic here???? Explain yourself better, because NO ONE will understand you.
Speak for yourself. I want OSL back, and its format is one of those things that makes it special.
WCS KR is run between GSL and OSL. WCS KR S1 was run under GSL, WCS KR S2 is now run on OSL. Thus it makes sense that S1 has GSL format and S2 has OSL format.
This is a new format with new nuances. Enjoy it for what it is.
How do you think Flash became known? One of the most perfectly executed cheeses ever done. And it produced the most delicious Bisu fan tears and rage ever.
On June 13 2013 10:05 LuckyMacro wrote: Not sure if I'd consider group E the group of death, maybe if fantasy and jangbi were both like how they were in BW. Although they do play some nice SC2 sometimes. Kind of excited for the rain vs bomber, depending on which bomber shows up
Jangbi has been extremely good lately, better than PartinG if you ask me. As for Fantasy... :-(
On June 13 2013 14:07 sitromit wrote: Fun fact. If the ro32 in season finals had been played as bo1, Innovation, the eventual champion could not have advanced as 1st from his group, and could even have potentially been eliminated. Mvp, the semi finalist wouldn't have advanced past ro32.
Mvp and nestea won 3 GSLs with bo1 ro32s. Jaedong and flash won 5 and 6 OSL/MSL with bo1 ro32 finals. Don't worry, OSL's been running for a decade, they know what they're doing.
On June 13 2013 10:05 LuckyMacro wrote: Not sure if I'd consider group E the group of death, maybe if fantasy and jangbi were both like how they were in BW. Although they do play some nice SC2 sometimes. Kind of excited for the rain vs bomber, depending on which bomber shows up
I actually think Jangbi and Life will dispatch the others quite easily in group E :D We have different opinions so maybe it's indeed the group of death after all haha.
On June 13 2013 14:07 sitromit wrote: Fun fact. If the ro32 in season finals had been played as bo1, Innovation, the eventual champion could not have advanced as 1st from his group, and could even have potentially been eliminated. Mvp, the semi finalist wouldn't have advanced past ro32.
Mvp and nestea won 3 GSLs with bo1 ro32s. Jaedong and flash won 5 and 6 OSL/MSL with bo1 ro32 finals. Don't worry, OSL's been running for a decade, they know what they're doing.
But Jaedong and Flash often got seeded to Ro16, their gold count could be much different if they had to start from ro32 every time.
On June 13 2013 14:07 sitromit wrote: Fun fact. If the ro32 in season finals had been played as bo1, Innovation, the eventual champion could not have advanced as 1st from his group, and could even have potentially been eliminated. Mvp, the semi finalist wouldn't have advanced past ro32.
Mvp and nestea won 3 GSLs with bo1 ro32s. Jaedong and flash won 5 and 6 OSL/MSL with bo1 ro32 finals. Don't worry, OSL's been running for a decade, they know what they're doing.
But Jaedong and Flash often got seeded to Ro16, their gold count could be much different if they had to start from ro32 every time.
Nah, Bo1 on BW was fine, it's not a volatile game. Bo1 for SC2 might not be a good idea though :-)
Seems like MLG will get some breathing room this season! Or atleast a lot of pitchforks will go off everytime a favorite will lose. And wow can't belief they use a proven to not work format, just because their tournament was that way in another game. On the other hand I saw the presentation of the xbox one ... so I should belief that everything is possible.
BO1: Always has been like this, and logistically it's a TV time slot issue and not much else. I prefer BO3 Dual Tournament Groups like GSL has, but a change once in a while is interesting I guess. What I will dislike though is the breaks in between each game (so even though we have 10 games per night, the night will be longer than GOM's broadcast). I get that it's for Korean ads, but it makes my experience a bit more punctuated.
New maps issue: Players only need to practice one matchup on one of the new maps only, I don't think it's thaaat bad. Although I disagree with the assertion they have been well-tested and approved, I don't think the new maps will be so iffy especially for RO32.
Anyway, LRs have been pre-made, calendar entries done - feel free to sign up for LRs and gogogo OSL :D
On June 13 2013 09:56 xuanzue wrote: it seems to be bo1
the group E bring all the hype
No, only one map is listed because loser picks next map.
Format has been confirmed to copy GSL's already, so BO3s as normal.
They're playing 2 groups a day. It's bo1.
Wow really, OSL's format is FUBAR.
They are no doubt constricted by sponsorship. Or lack of thereof.
On June 13 2013 12:07 Caihead wrote: Some how group G and H has 6/8 ESF.
I hope my reputation as an anti-elephanist would allow me to say following without stirring any shit up: i think theyre just trying to ensure there are ESF guys in the playoffs for excitement purposes.
either that or the RNG gods be praised.
as much as I'd like to stand in the righteous corner and call for fair competition yada yada yada i think when the fate of a 13 year old franchise is on the line there is no place for RNG.
wth are you guys talking about, the distribution isnt noteworthy AT ALL
On June 13 2013 12:24 Cinim wrote: Stop talking about group of death, it's bo1 format in the first round so it's completely pointless and quite frankly stupid to talk about. It's proven time and time again(for example the last sc2 OSL) that at this lvl of gameplay, when introducing bo1 it almost always creates significantly surprising results, because a bo1 is so volatile.
its been proven time again that bo3 always produces surprising results, and isnt v ery different from bo1s, especially in a game as volitile as sc2. lets say the average map winrate is 56% for the round of 32, then the difference between bo1 and bo3 is 56 to 59%.
On June 13 2013 10:05 LuckyMacro wrote: Not sure if I'd consider group E the group of death, maybe if fantasy and jangbi were both like how they were in BW. Although they do play some nice SC2 sometimes. Kind of excited for the rain vs bomber, depending on which bomber shows up
I actually think Jangbi and Life will dispatch the others quite easily in group E :D We have different opinions so maybe it's indeed the group of death after all haha.
You can NEVER count on anything in bo1. Literally anyone could make the next round and I would not be surprised.
It will be kind of like that one GSL where they finished at IPL5 so everything had to finish super fast and we ended up with really random winners.
lol, i cant imagine how life could even be a favourite vs fantasy, yet you guys are talking as if its hard to see anything but a jangbi/life result. even if they were 60% per map vs the others, they would both make it out only 42%
Is this the first time Kespa has had over 50% representation (17/32 atm) in the GSL/WCS Korea?
I said 8 months ago that "within 6 months, Kespa would be half of the GSL". I was off by 2 months, but still it is funny considering how many forum regulars jumped on me for that comment (probably because the finals were Life v MVP and Kespa had only like 4-5 players in GSL).
Things will probably even out from here though because there is a lot of skill in both organizations, obviously.
Fantasy group is staked as fuck,i hope he'll be okay,he is never lucky... Even in proleague its always flash,innovation....that faces him. Cmon lady luck fantasy could use a boost !
Hey guys I know there's been a lot of talk about this. Let me just address a few points. In general As many are pointing out, we are keeping true to the past OSL formats. There are arguments for uniformity as now we are in the era of WCS, and this is duly noted. We, and I am sure other parties as well, will be monitoring things this year to see what to conform and why. However, for the time being, the situation has allowed us to keep our character, and as we venture into the new WCS with excitement, we're very thankful we can keep that. It may not be for everyone, and it may not be a good fit for SC2 or be changed in the future, but we want to see how it works out before jumping to changes. GomTV has been successful with their formula for the GSL, and all the props to them for that. I just hope OGN will also be given a chance to stick to what we've done successfully before finalizing any modifications (and hopefully improvements). We hope you understand and appreciate your patience. Regarding the Ro32: Yes, we understand the concerns. I do not think bo1's have no benefits, but your concerns are valid. I will admit though, currently we are not putting much time or effort into changing it immediately. This is because, even if we wanted to, the logistics are not feasible for this season. I'm not guaranteeing that it will change in the future, just want to admit that right now given the feasibility of things, we aren't focusing on changing the content, but how to better present that content. Throughout all this, we will definitely be monitoring all aspects, and I think it's safe to say that all the parties involved in the WCS will see vast improvement over the year/next year. Thanks for chiming in. We're listening, you can trust me on that one.
Please, Chobra, understad this: If every single WCS out of Korea take this format nad make it succeed its because IT WORKS perfectly. Now, you come and screw it with your unknown "logictics". If you are not prepared,just dont do it, WTF!!! You already know its a shit and almost everyone is pissed. I want to see the best players advance, because I expect the best quality of games from the best players in the world. Dont wanna see flash being dropped, because the Zergs decide to baneling bust him every game. The cheese is not the best way to show your skill and you are promoving this. Where is the LOGICstic here???? Explain yourself better, because NO ONE will understand you.
Chobra isn't the decision maker. What do you want him to do? Relay your message to the higher ups? Give me a break, you guys need to understand that this structure has been used for quite some time and they do tend to switch things up from time to time. Unknown logistics? This is built for a Television cast. You saw Flash got dropped in the GSL format as well bud and you won't see cheese every game. Have you watched PL? More often than not the players in PL scout very thoroughly and are on top of their shit. Those kind of tactics aren't the be all end all.
On June 13 2013 13:04 DRTnOOber wrote: I really don't like the fact it's Bo1 in the Ro32... I don't think it'll let the best player's through, but just whoever prepares the best cheese/build. It feels... wrong that the rest of WCS has Bo3 for this part of the tournament.
Preparing builds, dealing with high stress environment, responding correctly to builds on the fly, executing all of that with good fundamentals, these are all a part of what makes the best player. Doing the same macro build and relying on your fundamentals every single game is a major weakness of many players (such as Flash). Having a Bo1 is ample ground for storylines and upsets, which by-the-way, is not necessarily a bad thing. If everyone knew exactly who was going to win because every series was a BoX lim -> infinity, why even watch the matches? How would you have diversity in fandom? Why would anyone cheer for the underdog? Bo1 caters to an aggressive, smart, and planned out style where as Bo3+ caters to a safe, map-by-map, and reliable style. The former is alot more fun to watch for alot of people. Bo1's are also alot more exciting because everything is on the line, every Bo1 is treated like match point in a Bo3+ series in the view of the fans.
Bo1s are only ample ground for story lines and upsets because of the randomness included with them. Will you think the same way if Flash gets cheesed out by Ragnorok and Yugioh (a very possible situation in this format)?
Bo3s forced players to adapt to their opponent's strategies opposed to the BO1 where they each pick a strategy and the better choice + execution is often enough to just win.
Already happened. Am I upset that flash lost in that tournament? Yes. Am I hating on the format for it? No. And as you can see from the recommend games poll, they were great games to watch.
and if i remember correctly those 2 games Flash lost werent any cheese games. they were long "macro" (i hate calling normal games like that T_T) games. pretty sure the game vs Classic ended with some battle cruiser stuff.
so yeah dunno why people think just because it is bo1 u will suddenly see 50 cheese games.
Bo1 doesn't bother me to much (I'd rather it bo3) but having two completely different season formats is pretty awful. I hope Blizzard does something so season two is actually an improvement on season one.
I seem to remember people pissing and moaning about Proleague when they found out the format after it switched to SC2 as well. In fact, you could probably just copy this thread and change "OSL" to "PL" and it would probably be the same thing. People eventually came around.
Like most things, people are just overreacting because they haven't experienced it. OSL is wonderful, tense and dramatic and has been the premier SC tournament for a decade for a reason.
Oh boy. BO1 for a WCS tournament? I understand there may be a precedent here but It's ridiculously easy to be knocked out of WCS Korea for this season. Kind of lame when we see the same formats across everywhere else.
Lol I'm really not convinced by the general "OHHHHH NOOOO BO1 SO RANDOM!" that seems to be going on there. Sure, Bo3 is better, and so is Bo5, and Bo7, Bo1337 and Bo9001, but Proleague is also kind of Bo1 and I don't see many upsets happening there anyway.
There is this belief that SC2 is a much more random game than BW, but I'm pretty sure that's really far-fetched (just looking at the winrates of top players in both games). Considering the state of the game atm, all-ins and cheeses are actually as risky as greedy openings nowadays (it wasn't always the case in SC2) so I don't think we'll see 90% all-ins. Sure, worse players will probably attempt some funky stuff against players like Flash, Innovation, Rain or Soulkey, but whatever they do, it'll still be defendable :D
You guys act like they might as well throw a coin or play dice...
A:flash will always win unless badly hit with roachbane equalizer, soulkey the current gsl champion but im not sure about his odds he has flash in these group and zvz is an still coinflip B:innovation seriously anyone who faces bogus in these group is already a dead man,Flying hes just better than the other 3 C:sos is the stealth assassin of this group,effort is the sidekick of hydra the cj's hope D:symbol is a roachbane master ,shine is yolo E:Life's still the best zerg player in the world just didnt get the spot because of BSL last GSL and not a lot of televised games,Jangbi because fantasy is still unstable F:Roro one of the mightiest zerg so far,Leenook this guy rarely does not advance G:Parting soultrain man, Squirtle will use water gun and its gonna be super effective H: im sure its rain the PROOOO LEAGUE HEEROOO and other player
On June 13 2013 14:55 ZenithM wrote: Lol I'm really not convinced by the general "OHHHHH NOOOO BO1 SO RANDOM!" that seems to be going on there. Sure, Bo3 is better, and so is Bo5, and Bo7, Bo1337 and Bo9001, but Proleague is also kind of Bo1 and I don't see many upsets happening there anyway.
There is this belief that SC2 is a much more random game than BW, but I'm pretty sure that's really far-fetched (just looking at the winrates of top players in both games). Considering the state of the game atm, all-ins and cheeses are actually as risky as greedy openings nowadays (it wasn't always the case in SC2) so I don't think we'll see 90% all-ins. Sure, worse players will probably attempt some funky stuff against players like Flash, Innovation, Rain or Soulkey, but whatever they do, it'll still be defendable :D
You guys act like they might as well throw a coin or play dice...
Well, there are terrible coinflippy matchups like PvP or ZvZ, but who cares about those anyway HUEHUETvTFINALSPLEASEHUE
Of course, you can't see randomness by looking at winrates. Do you know about statistics? It's an average... But it's still random as hell, since every player feeling behind against a given opponent will probably cheese. I don't know why OSL have to do things differently from every other WCS tournaments, going away from a perfectly fine format.
SC2 is a lot more coinflippy than SC1 because engagements are faster, deathballs are faster (mainly because of better pathing) and stuff harder to scout and react to in time. BO1 are completely out of place in this game and in this quality of tournament. OSL did it last time, was criticized for it, with very bad players reaching the next round and major upsets, leading to a less interesting to watch RO16. With so much money and fame on the line, with the tournament becoming the only thing that matters for Korean players, this is madness to base everything out on BO1.
Round robin is also retarded, with possible ties forcing tiebreakers (since they won't use map scores, there will be a lot), meaning a TON of unpredictable delay.
Blizzard should have pushed harder for an unified WCS format. It would also make it more clear for new viewers who watched other WCS before.
On June 13 2013 14:59 Lorning wrote: I want Flash to fall 0-2 by losing to 2 Roach bane allins. Then I'd like to see the reactions again.
You mean, everyone but all teamliquid? Everybody say the same as you in this thread: every trash player is going to cheese out the fan-favorite-multiple-championship-super-skilled guy and we'll have a Savage vs hyvaa ZvZ finals.
On June 13 2013 14:39 vesicular wrote: I seem to remember people pissing and moaning about Proleague when they found out the format after it switched to SC2 as well. In fact, you could probably just copy this thread and change "OSL" to "PL" and it would probably be the same thing. People eventually came around.
Like most things, people are just overreacting because they haven't experienced it. OSL is wonderful, tense and dramatic and has been the premier SC tournament for a decade for a reason.
PL is a team league, and OSL is an individual league. How can you compare them? lol I am not siding with the complainers just saying.
On June 13 2013 14:59 Lorning wrote: I want Flash to fall 0-2 by losing to 2 Roach bane allins. Then I'd like to see the reactions again.
You mean, everyone but all teamliquid? Everybody say the same as you in this thread: every trash player is going to cheese out the fan-favorite-multiple-championship-super-skilled guy and we'll have a Savage vs hyvaa ZvZ finals.
Why are OGN involved in this thing again? WCS Korea, and the WCS finals, would of been so much better if Gretech had done it all.
On June 13 2013 14:39 vesicular wrote: I seem to remember people pissing and moaning about Proleague when they found out the format after it switched to SC2 as well. In fact, you could probably just copy this thread and change "OSL" to "PL" and it would probably be the same thing. People eventually came around.
Like most things, people are just overreacting because they haven't experienced it. OSL is wonderful, tense and dramatic and has been the premier SC tournament for a decade for a reason.
We experienced an SC2 OSL last year and it was bad.
The GSL used to use best of 1 in early 2011. It was changed because it is an inferior format.
OGN did that for yeras and us till have people like Flash , Jaedong , Nada etc with 3 OSL wins. and nearly never drop out of OSL/MSL. can't be that random hm?. dunno where this bullshit idea comes form that it will be cheese fest now.
even in Broodwar i would say u had a better chance playing straight up vs Flash instead of a cheese.
On June 13 2013 15:15 hzflank wrote: Why are OGN involved in this thing again? WCS Korea, and the WCS finals, would of been so much better if Gretech had done it all.
On June 13 2013 14:39 vesicular wrote: I seem to remember people pissing and moaning about Proleague when they found out the format after it switched to SC2 as well. In fact, you could probably just copy this thread and change "OSL" to "PL" and it would probably be the same thing. People eventually came around.
Like most things, people are just overreacting because they haven't experienced it. OSL is wonderful, tense and dramatic and has been the premier SC tournament for a decade for a reason.
We experienced an SC2 OSL last year and it was bad.
The GSL used to use best of 1 in early 2011. It was changed because it is an inferior format.
and ofcourse people like u who obv have no idea again are the first to complain.
GOM will handle Season 1 and 3. while OGN will handle season 2.
On June 13 2013 14:59 Lorning wrote: I want Flash to fall 0-2 by losing to 2 Roach bane allins. Then I'd like to see the reactions again.
You mean, everyone but all teamliquid? Everybody say the same as you in this thread: every trash player is going to cheese out the fan-favorite-multiple-championship-super-skilled guy and we'll have a Savage vs hyvaa ZvZ finals.
and i dont like [OSL] , it should say WCS KR, if this is WCS it should be WCS all over the world? and its same with Bo1 format (i dont like it), it should be the same all over the world
On June 13 2013 15:17 rasers wrote: OGN did that for yeras and us till have people like Flash , Jaedong , Nada etc with 3 OSL wins. and nearly never drop out of OSL/MSL. can't be that random hm?. dunno where this bullshit idea comes form that it will be cheese fest now.
even in Broodwar i would say u had a better chance playing straight up vs Flash instead of a cheese.
On June 13 2013 15:15 hzflank wrote: Why are OGN involved in this thing again? WCS Korea, and the WCS finals, would of been so much better if Gretech had done it all.
On June 13 2013 14:39 vesicular wrote: I seem to remember people pissing and moaning about Proleague when they found out the format after it switched to SC2 as well. In fact, you could probably just copy this thread and change "OSL" to "PL" and it would probably be the same thing. People eventually came around.
Like most things, people are just overreacting because they haven't experienced it. OSL is wonderful, tense and dramatic and has been the premier SC tournament for a decade for a reason.
We experienced an SC2 OSL last year and it was bad.
The GSL used to use best of 1 in early 2011. It was changed because it is an inferior format.
and ofcourse people like u who obv have no idea again are the first to complain.
GOM will handle Season 1 and 3. while OGN will handle season 2.
No idea about what? Ofcourse Gom will do season 3, we already knew that and it is completely irrelevant.
So what do I not have any idea about? Are you trying to tell me that the OSL last year was as good as any of the GSL?
And why should people like me not complain? Gretech has done a great job for the last couple of years and have tweaked their format to make it better for us viewers. OGN is using a format without even considering what the viewers want to see. Best case is the results are the same but we get to watch less games, which makes it lose/lose.
On June 13 2013 15:17 rasers wrote: OGN did that for yeras and us till have people like Flash , Jaedong , Nada etc with 3 OSL wins. and nearly never drop out of OSL/MSL. can't be that random hm?. dunno where this bullshit idea comes form that it will be cheese fest now.
even in Broodwar i would say u had a better chance playing straight up vs Flash instead of a cheese.
On June 13 2013 15:15 hzflank wrote: Why are OGN involved in this thing again? WCS Korea, and the WCS finals, would of been so much better if Gretech had done it all.
On June 13 2013 14:39 vesicular wrote: I seem to remember people pissing and moaning about Proleague when they found out the format after it switched to SC2 as well. In fact, you could probably just copy this thread and change "OSL" to "PL" and it would probably be the same thing. People eventually came around.
Like most things, people are just overreacting because they haven't experienced it. OSL is wonderful, tense and dramatic and has been the premier SC tournament for a decade for a reason.
We experienced an SC2 OSL last year and it was bad.
The GSL used to use best of 1 in early 2011. It was changed because it is an inferior format.
and ofcourse people like u who obv have no idea again are the first to complain.
GOM will handle Season 1 and 3. while OGN will handle season 2.
Don't forget that seeding into a higher round for the top 4 of the previous OSL existed in the old tournaments, something GSL has never done and we still have two 3+ time champions.
On June 13 2013 15:18 suicideyear wrote: You can figure out pretty quickly the people in this thread that never watched a BW OSL (or they were Bisu fans idk)
Don't worry, if he's the underdog, he will cheese the better players out and win his group, according to the Bo1 law of thermodynamics (Teamliquid et al., 2013).
On June 13 2013 15:18 suicideyear wrote: You can figure out pretty quickly the people in this thread that never watched a BW OSL (or they were Bisu fans idk)
On June 13 2013 15:18 suicideyear wrote: You can figure out pretty quickly the people in this thread that never watched a BW OSL (or they were Bisu fans idk)
On June 13 2013 15:18 suicideyear wrote: You can figure out pretty quickly the people in this thread that never watched a BW OSL (or they were Bisu fans idk)
It is not BW OSL. It is WCS now. And it is stupid to change format when they tried to unify it.
Against Life it can go either way, Jangbi might be favored over him, but surprisingly despite how good I was expecting him to be in HotS I think Fantasy is the underdog of the group.
Has anyone seen these maps in high level play before? Anaconda looks like a nice macro oriented map, and Gwanganri well, I have no clue how thats gonna play out
Hey guys in one hour, there is Fantasy vs Flash Bo1 as a foretaste of OSL randomness. We'll see if Fantasy can roach-bane Flash out of a Proleague win . Fuck Bo1 so random hnnng.
Against Life it can go either way, Jangbi might be favored over him, but surprisingly despite how good I was expecting him to be in HotS I think Fantasy is the underdog of the group.
LosirA is the underdog in that group. JangBi will be well prepared for him. Life needs to get his zvz back and Fantasy is the wild card.
On June 13 2013 15:40 Zealously wrote: I will summarise this thread for you all so that you won't have to read all the comments:
1. Format is bad 2. OSL is bad 3. Anyone who thinks the format is bad hasn't watched Brood War 4. Bisu didn't qualify
like i said earlier, the difference between bo1 and bo3 for a 56% map favourite is only 56-59%. if i were to complain about variance id complain about the huge variance inherrent to sc2 overall
On June 13 2013 15:44 Wojciech Zywny wrote: why didn't they just let GOMTV run wcs korea and let OSL have their own separate event? wouldn't that be 10x better????
Because a lot of things Blizzard does makes very little sense? ._.
On June 13 2013 15:44 Wojciech Zywny wrote: why didn't they just let GOMTV run wcs korea and let OSL have their own separate event? wouldn't that be 10x better????
Because a lot of things Blizzard does makes very little sense? ._.
I wonder how they manage to balance such a complex game as starcraft 2.....
On June 13 2013 15:46 ZenithM wrote: Let Protoss have their moment of glory man, they're not winning shit otherwise :D
They won't win any way, not with Life and Innovation both in the tournament
B-but, you don't understand man, Protoss are going to roach-bane cheese all-in Life and Innovation out of the tournament. That's what this thread has taught me at least.
On June 13 2013 15:44 Wojciech Zywny wrote: why didn't they just let GOMTV run wcs korea and let OSL have their own separate event? wouldn't that be 10x better????
Because a lot of things Blizzard does makes very little sense? ._.
I wonder how they manage to balance such a complex game as starcraft 2.....
On June 13 2013 15:44 Wojciech Zywny wrote: why didn't they just let GOMTV run wcs korea and let OSL have their own separate event? wouldn't that be 10x better????
because osl would have probably dropped sc2 if blizz wouldnt sponsor organize the wcs, osl now has LoL and their last sc2 osl was a fail so no point actually to run a sc2 league on their own pocket
On June 13 2013 15:44 Wojciech Zywny wrote: why didn't they just let GOMTV run wcs korea and let OSL have their own separate event? wouldn't that be 10x better????
Because a lot of things Blizzard does makes very little sense? ._.
I wonder how they manage to balance such a complex game as starcraft 2.....
On June 13 2013 15:46 ZenithM wrote: Let Protoss have their moment of glory man, they're not winning shit otherwise :D
They won't win any way, not with Life and Innovation both in the tournament
B-but, you don't understand man, Protoss are going to roach-bane cheese all-in Life and Innovation out of the tournament. That's what this thread has taught me at least.
Ah yes, and SC2 has too much variance and bad players will advance
On June 13 2013 15:10 Nyvis wrote: Of course, you can't see randomness by looking at winrates. Do you know about statistics? It's an average... But it's still random as hell, since every player feeling behind against a given opponent will probably cheese. I don't know why OSL have to do things differently from every other WCS tournaments, going away from a perfectly fine format.
OSL is not going away from any format. They are simply not moving closer to the format you want to see.
On June 13 2013 15:15 hzflank wrote: Why are OGN involved in this thing again? WCS Korea, and the WCS finals, would of been so much better if Gretech had done it all.
On June 13 2013 14:39 vesicular wrote: I seem to remember people pissing and moaning about Proleague when they found out the format after it switched to SC2 as well. In fact, you could probably just copy this thread and change "OSL" to "PL" and it would probably be the same thing. People eventually came around.
Like most things, people are just overreacting because they haven't experienced it. OSL is wonderful, tense and dramatic and has been the premier SC tournament for a decade for a reason.
We experienced an SC2 OSL last year and it was bad.
You can't compare the level of KeSPA players during the first OSL (fresh from dual proleague) and now.
The GSL used to use best of 1 in early 2011. It was changed because it is an inferior format.
Starcraft 2 in 2011 was a complete joke. Especially the map pool.
On June 13 2013 15:23 hzflank wrote: No idea about what? Ofcourse Gom will do season 3, we already knew that and it is completely irrelevant.
So what do I not have any idea about? Are you trying to tell me that the OSL last year was as good as any of the GSL?
And why should people like me not complain? Gretech has done a great job for the last couple of years and have tweaked their format to make it better for us viewers. OGN is using a format without even considering what the viewers want to see. Best case is the results are the same but we get to watch less games, which makes it lose/lose.
Have you considered you are *not* OGN's main target audience? It's not like there was no eSports before SC2 or you came in.
Why would they make Ro32 Bo1? That's really, really, incredibly stupid. I thought they had to copy the proven GSL format, instead of making shitty modifications of their own again. That makes me really angry.
Meh, now that my annoyance at their territorial alpha male butchering of the format just for the sake of it is out of the way:
A: Soulkey, Flash: poor Ragnarok and Yugioh should be outmatched, though I think they have a slight chance of upsetting Flash if they play really aggressively. B: Innovation, Savage: Innovation is pretty much set (except for anything could happen with the BS that is Bo1s), second spot is a coin toss. I suppose Flying is the favorite for 2nd, but w/e. C: Sos, Effort D: Symbol, Curious: Please not Shine, please anybody but Shine. E: Life, Jangbi: Life is obvious and Jangbi has been in amazing form lately. F: Leenock, Roro: I would love if First somehow made it out of this group... G: Squirtle, YongHwa: LG-IM Protosses, best Protosses. H: Rain, Keen: Bomber will be in choke mode early this tournament, I feel.
On June 13 2013 15:23 hzflank wrote: No idea about what? Ofcourse Gom will do season 3, we already knew that and it is completely irrelevant.
So what do I not have any idea about? Are you trying to tell me that the OSL last year was as good as any of the GSL?
And why should people like me not complain? Gretech has done a great job for the last couple of years and have tweaked their format to make it better for us viewers. OGN is using a format without even considering what the viewers want to see. Best case is the results are the same but we get to watch less games, which makes it lose/lose.
Have you considered you are *not* OGN's main target audience? It's not like there was no eSports before SC2 or you came in.
What people want to see is LoL and Word of Tanks dude. But World of Tanks Bo3 at least, let it be clear.
On June 13 2013 15:23 hzflank wrote: No idea about what? Ofcourse Gom will do season 3, we already knew that and it is completely irrelevant.
So what do I not have any idea about? Are you trying to tell me that the OSL last year was as good as any of the GSL?
And why should people like me not complain? Gretech has done a great job for the last couple of years and have tweaked their format to make it better for us viewers. OGN is using a format without even considering what the viewers want to see. Best case is the results are the same but we get to watch less games, which makes it lose/lose.
Have you considered you are *not* OGN's main target audience? It's not like there was no eSports before SC2 or you came in.
What people want to see is LoL and Word of Tanks dude. But World of Tanks Bo3 at least, let it be clear.
On June 13 2013 15:46 ZenithM wrote: Let Protoss have their moment of glory man, they're not winning shit otherwise :D
They won't win any way, not with Life and Innovation both in the tournament
B-but, you don't understand man, Protoss are going to roach-bane cheese all-in Life and Innovation out of the tournament. That's what this thread has taught me at least.
Ah yes, and SC2 has too much variance and bad players will advance
It's funnt because it's true.
On June 13 2013 16:01 Dreamer.T wrote: Seriously? Group E over a group with Flash and Soulkey? Only notable player in E is Life, sure the other are good, but they aren't top top tier.
FlaSh vs Soulkey will be very exciting, but it's only one game. There are 2 other players you know, and it will be ZvZ... I agree that group E is the most overall interesting group to watch.
On June 13 2013 16:01 Dreamer.T wrote: Seriously? Group E over a group with Flash and Soulkey? Only notable player in E is Life, sure the other are good, but they aren't top top tier.
JangBi has one of the best records in Proleague, he is really good!!
there will be upsets for sure, with a bo1 format... and it will pisses off all foreigners fans.
Why blizzard has even given a chance to OGN if they knew that they will doing shit like that ? worst finale ever for what had to be one of the 4 best tournament of the year, and now that ???
Maybe Blizzard wants to hype SC2 in korea, but at what cost ? GOM is doing great with SC2 since the release, now i think blizzard definitly had to give all WCS to GOM OGN achieved something impossible : make us forget how shitty NA finals were :/
So basically I don't care about who wins this at all since Bo1 is completely random. People who might be championship contenders can be caught off guard by a no brain no skill cheese and be eliminated in the first round. Great.
On June 13 2013 15:15 hzflank wrote: Why are OGN involved in this thing again? WCS Korea, and the WCS finals, would of been so much better if Gretech had done it all.
On June 13 2013 14:39 vesicular wrote: I seem to remember people pissing and moaning about Proleague when they found out the format after it switched to SC2 as well. In fact, you could probably just copy this thread and change "OSL" to "PL" and it would probably be the same thing. People eventually came around.
Like most things, people are just overreacting because they haven't experienced it. OSL is wonderful, tense and dramatic and has been the premier SC tournament for a decade for a reason.
We experienced an SC2 OSL last year and it was bad.
You can't compare the level of KeSPA players during the first OSL (fresh from dual proleague) and now.
On June 13 2013 15:23 hzflank wrote: No idea about what? Ofcourse Gom will do season 3, we already knew that and it is completely irrelevant.
So what do I not have any idea about? Are you trying to tell me that the OSL last year was as good as any of the GSL?
And why should people like me not complain? Gretech has done a great job for the last couple of years and have tweaked their format to make it better for us viewers. OGN is using a format without even considering what the viewers want to see. Best case is the results are the same but we get to watch less games, which makes it lose/lose.
Have you considered you are *not* OGN's main target audience? It's not like there was no eSports before SC2 or you came in.
So OGN main target audience is BW viewers that switched to SC2 ? And to be sure not to miss this huge core audience, they want to keep a format that involves more luck, in a game that's known to have a bit more luck involved as well than BW ?
I completely fail to understand what could possibly justify that. "Conserving uniformity" ? Well, keep your crappy format then.
Oh, and the fact that SC2 was a joke in 2011 is completely irrelevant, we talk about production quality.
OT: Same as the first SC2 OSL. Will watch a few matches, then wait for the finals, hoping for something interesting to watch..
Either improve, OGN, or please give that back to Gretech. GSL may not have the holy aura of BW behind it. It may not have the huuuuuge audience of OGN by many times. Still, it's been far better watching GSL than OSL so far in SC2. And the massive influx of KeSPA players made it even better.
On June 13 2013 15:46 ZenithM wrote: Let Protoss have their moment of glory man, they're not winning shit otherwise :D
They won't win any way, not with Life and Innovation both in the tournament
B-but, you don't understand man, Protoss are going to roach-bane cheese all-in Life and Innovation out of the tournament. That's what this thread has taught me at least.
Ah yes, and SC2 has too much variance and bad players will advance
It's funnt because it's true.
It's not like crazy upsets didn't happen in Brood War, though - there will always be players advancing who are believed to be inferior.
On June 13 2013 15:15 hzflank wrote: Why are OGN involved in this thing again? WCS Korea, and the WCS finals, would of been so much better if Gretech had done it all.
On June 13 2013 14:39 vesicular wrote: I seem to remember people pissing and moaning about Proleague when they found out the format after it switched to SC2 as well. In fact, you could probably just copy this thread and change "OSL" to "PL" and it would probably be the same thing. People eventually came around.
Like most things, people are just overreacting because they haven't experienced it. OSL is wonderful, tense and dramatic and has been the premier SC tournament for a decade for a reason.
We experienced an SC2 OSL last year and it was bad.
You can't compare the level of KeSPA players during the first OSL (fresh from dual proleague) and now.
The GSL used to use best of 1 in early 2011. It was changed because it is an inferior format.
Starcraft 2 in 2011 was a complete joke. Especially the map pool.
On June 13 2013 15:23 hzflank wrote: No idea about what? Ofcourse Gom will do season 3, we already knew that and it is completely irrelevant.
So what do I not have any idea about? Are you trying to tell me that the OSL last year was as good as any of the GSL?
And why should people like me not complain? Gretech has done a great job for the last couple of years and have tweaked their format to make it better for us viewers. OGN is using a format without even considering what the viewers want to see. Best case is the results are the same but we get to watch less games, which makes it lose/lose.
Have you considered you are *not* OGN's main target audience? It's not like there was no eSports before SC2 or you came in.
So OGN main target audience is BW viewers that switched to SC2 ?
Their main audience is Korea, since they broadcast on TV.
On June 13 2013 16:00 ACrow wrote: Why would they make Ro32 Bo1? That's really, really, incredibly stupid. I thought they had to copy the proven GSL format, instead of making shitty modifications of their own again. That makes me really angry.
Meh, now that my annoyance at their territorial alpha male butchering of the format just for the sake of it is out of the way:
H: Rain, Keen: Bomber will be in choke mode early this tournament, I feel.
On June 13 2013 15:15 hzflank wrote: Why are OGN involved in this thing again? WCS Korea, and the WCS finals, would of been so much better if Gretech had done it all.
On June 13 2013 14:39 vesicular wrote: I seem to remember people pissing and moaning about Proleague when they found out the format after it switched to SC2 as well. In fact, you could probably just copy this thread and change "OSL" to "PL" and it would probably be the same thing. People eventually came around.
Like most things, people are just overreacting because they haven't experienced it. OSL is wonderful, tense and dramatic and has been the premier SC tournament for a decade for a reason.
We experienced an SC2 OSL last year and it was bad.
You can't compare the level of KeSPA players during the first OSL (fresh from dual proleague) and now.
The GSL used to use best of 1 in early 2011. It was changed because it is an inferior format.
Starcraft 2 in 2011 was a complete joke. Especially the map pool.
On June 13 2013 15:23 hzflank wrote: No idea about what? Ofcourse Gom will do season 3, we already knew that and it is completely irrelevant.
So what do I not have any idea about? Are you trying to tell me that the OSL last year was as good as any of the GSL?
And why should people like me not complain? Gretech has done a great job for the last couple of years and have tweaked their format to make it better for us viewers. OGN is using a format without even considering what the viewers want to see. Best case is the results are the same but we get to watch less games, which makes it lose/lose.
Have you considered you are *not* OGN's main target audience? It's not like there was no eSports before SC2 or you came in.
So OGN main target audience is BW viewers that switched to SC2 ?
Their main audience is Korea, since they broadcast on TV.
And Koreans prefer Bo1 where there's a much higher chance that inferior players make it through on the back of silly cheese, mindgames, build order wins, you name it?
On June 13 2013 16:00 ACrow wrote: Why would they make Ro32 Bo1? That's really, really, incredibly stupid. I thought they had to copy the proven GSL format, instead of making shitty modifications of their own again. That makes me really angry.
Meh, now that my annoyance at their territorial alpha male butchering of the format just for the sake of it is out of the way:
H: Rain, Keen: Bomber will be in choke mode early this tournament, I feel.
They use their proven OSL Format.
Bo1 is proven to be utter crap in solo leagues. I sense a conflict there...
On June 13 2013 15:15 hzflank wrote: Why are OGN involved in this thing again? WCS Korea, and the WCS finals, would of been so much better if Gretech had done it all.
On June 13 2013 14:39 vesicular wrote: I seem to remember people pissing and moaning about Proleague when they found out the format after it switched to SC2 as well. In fact, you could probably just copy this thread and change "OSL" to "PL" and it would probably be the same thing. People eventually came around.
Like most things, people are just overreacting because they haven't experienced it. OSL is wonderful, tense and dramatic and has been the premier SC tournament for a decade for a reason.
We experienced an SC2 OSL last year and it was bad.
You can't compare the level of KeSPA players during the first OSL (fresh from dual proleague) and now.
The GSL used to use best of 1 in early 2011. It was changed because it is an inferior format.
Starcraft 2 in 2011 was a complete joke. Especially the map pool.
On June 13 2013 15:23 hzflank wrote: No idea about what? Ofcourse Gom will do season 3, we already knew that and it is completely irrelevant.
So what do I not have any idea about? Are you trying to tell me that the OSL last year was as good as any of the GSL?
And why should people like me not complain? Gretech has done a great job for the last couple of years and have tweaked their format to make it better for us viewers. OGN is using a format without even considering what the viewers want to see. Best case is the results are the same but we get to watch less games, which makes it lose/lose.
Have you considered you are *not* OGN's main target audience? It's not like there was no eSports before SC2 or you came in.
So OGN main target audience is BW viewers that switched to SC2 ?
Their main audience is Korea, since they broadcast on TV.
And Koreans prefer Bo1 where there's a much higher chance that inferior players make it through on the back of silly cheese, mindgames, build order wins, you name it?
jesus fucking christ there is a reason nada was in every fucking single MSL he played. and fucking jaedong flash and all these people keep staying in the fucking OSL/MSL even if they get knocked out early.
if these peopel are soooooooooooo much better they will fucking qualify.
jesus christ u guys act like Flash soulkey innovation life all get knocked out and we get a fucking Shine vs hyvaa final or something.
Fucking Flash got knocked out in MSL vs 2 "inferior" players. and i know u will think it was fucking cheese. but no it was 2 fucking 40min TvT games.
On June 13 2013 15:15 hzflank wrote: Why are OGN involved in this thing again? WCS Korea, and the WCS finals, would of been so much better if Gretech had done it all.
On June 13 2013 14:39 vesicular wrote: I seem to remember people pissing and moaning about Proleague when they found out the format after it switched to SC2 as well. In fact, you could probably just copy this thread and change "OSL" to "PL" and it would probably be the same thing. People eventually came around.
Like most things, people are just overreacting because they haven't experienced it. OSL is wonderful, tense and dramatic and has been the premier SC tournament for a decade for a reason.
We experienced an SC2 OSL last year and it was bad.
You can't compare the level of KeSPA players during the first OSL (fresh from dual proleague) and now.
The GSL used to use best of 1 in early 2011. It was changed because it is an inferior format.
Starcraft 2 in 2011 was a complete joke. Especially the map pool.
On June 13 2013 15:23 hzflank wrote: No idea about what? Ofcourse Gom will do season 3, we already knew that and it is completely irrelevant.
So what do I not have any idea about? Are you trying to tell me that the OSL last year was as good as any of the GSL?
And why should people like me not complain? Gretech has done a great job for the last couple of years and have tweaked their format to make it better for us viewers. OGN is using a format without even considering what the viewers want to see. Best case is the results are the same but we get to watch less games, which makes it lose/lose.
Have you considered you are *not* OGN's main target audience? It's not like there was no eSports before SC2 or you came in.
So OGN main target audience is BW viewers that switched to SC2 ?
Their main audience is Korea, since they broadcast on TV.
And Koreans prefer Bo1 where there's a much higher chance that inferior players make it through on the back of silly cheese, mindgames, build order wins, you name it?
They are trying to retain their OGN Starleague branding, which has some cachet with the Korean audience. "Different game, same league" is what they are trying to tell them, to get them interested in Starcraft again.
Not saying their decision is correct or anything, just explaining what it is.
On June 13 2013 15:15 hzflank wrote: Why are OGN involved in this thing again? WCS Korea, and the WCS finals, would of been so much better if Gretech had done it all.
On June 13 2013 14:39 vesicular wrote: I seem to remember people pissing and moaning about Proleague when they found out the format after it switched to SC2 as well. In fact, you could probably just copy this thread and change "OSL" to "PL" and it would probably be the same thing. People eventually came around.
Like most things, people are just overreacting because they haven't experienced it. OSL is wonderful, tense and dramatic and has been the premier SC tournament for a decade for a reason.
We experienced an SC2 OSL last year and it was bad.
You can't compare the level of KeSPA players during the first OSL (fresh from dual proleague) and now.
The GSL used to use best of 1 in early 2011. It was changed because it is an inferior format.
Starcraft 2 in 2011 was a complete joke. Especially the map pool.
On June 13 2013 15:23 hzflank wrote: No idea about what? Ofcourse Gom will do season 3, we already knew that and it is completely irrelevant.
So what do I not have any idea about? Are you trying to tell me that the OSL last year was as good as any of the GSL?
And why should people like me not complain? Gretech has done a great job for the last couple of years and have tweaked their format to make it better for us viewers. OGN is using a format without even considering what the viewers want to see. Best case is the results are the same but we get to watch less games, which makes it lose/lose.
Have you considered you are *not* OGN's main target audience? It's not like there was no eSports before SC2 or you came in.
So OGN main target audience is BW viewers that switched to SC2 ?
Their main audience is Korea, since they broadcast on TV.
And Koreans prefer Bo1 where there's a much higher chance that inferior players make it through on the back of silly cheese, mindgames, build order wins, you name it?
jesus fucking christ there is a reason nada was in every fucking single MSL he played. and fucking jaedong flash and all these people keep staying in the fucking OSL/MSL even if they get knocked out early.
if these peopel are soooooooooooo much better they will fucking qualify.
jesus christ u guys act like Flash soulkey innovation life all get knocked out and we get a fucking Shine vs hyvaa final or something.
1) chill out. 2) there's a much much higher chance of that happening with Bo1 format. And, as people have stated a million times by now, this isn't Brood War. There's more randomness in SC2. AND this OSL is a qualifier for WCS which means it's not just "oh well, this OSL sucked because the best players lost to Bo1". No, it'd be "goddamnit, it's bad enough that this guy did well in OSL just because of Bo1 but that actually qualifies him for the season finals too? Well."
It's dumb and it's retarded and it's brainless to keep a tradition just for tradition's sake. Like, I could absolutely take a game off Flash in a Bo1. I could proxy gate him and hope he goes CC first and win. ME.
On June 13 2013 15:15 hzflank wrote: Why are OGN involved in this thing again? WCS Korea, and the WCS finals, would of been so much better if Gretech had done it all.
On June 13 2013 14:39 vesicular wrote: I seem to remember people pissing and moaning about Proleague when they found out the format after it switched to SC2 as well. In fact, you could probably just copy this thread and change "OSL" to "PL" and it would probably be the same thing. People eventually came around.
Like most things, people are just overreacting because they haven't experienced it. OSL is wonderful, tense and dramatic and has been the premier SC tournament for a decade for a reason.
We experienced an SC2 OSL last year and it was bad.
You can't compare the level of KeSPA players during the first OSL (fresh from dual proleague) and now.
The GSL used to use best of 1 in early 2011. It was changed because it is an inferior format.
Starcraft 2 in 2011 was a complete joke. Especially the map pool.
On June 13 2013 15:23 hzflank wrote: No idea about what? Ofcourse Gom will do season 3, we already knew that and it is completely irrelevant.
So what do I not have any idea about? Are you trying to tell me that the OSL last year was as good as any of the GSL?
And why should people like me not complain? Gretech has done a great job for the last couple of years and have tweaked their format to make it better for us viewers. OGN is using a format without even considering what the viewers want to see. Best case is the results are the same but we get to watch less games, which makes it lose/lose.
Have you considered you are *not* OGN's main target audience? It's not like there was no eSports before SC2 or you came in.
So OGN main target audience is BW viewers that switched to SC2 ?
Their main audience is Korea, since they broadcast on TV.
And Koreans prefer Bo1 where there's a much higher chance that inferior players make it through on the back of silly cheese, mindgames, build order wins, you name it?
jesus fucking christ there is a reason nada was in every fucking single MSL he played. and fucking jaedong flash and all these people keep staying in the fucking OSL/MSL even if they get knocked out early.
if these peopel are soooooooooooo much better they will fucking qualify.
jesus christ u guys act like Flash soulkey innovation life all get knocked out and we get a fucking Shine vs hyvaa final or something.
Fucking Flash got knocked out in MSL vs 2 "inferior" players. and i know u will think it was fucking cheese. but no it was 2 fucking 40min TvT games.
On June 13 2013 15:15 hzflank wrote: Why are OGN involved in this thing again? WCS Korea, and the WCS finals, would of been so much better if Gretech had done it all.
On June 13 2013 14:39 vesicular wrote: I seem to remember people pissing and moaning about Proleague when they found out the format after it switched to SC2 as well. In fact, you could probably just copy this thread and change "OSL" to "PL" and it would probably be the same thing. People eventually came around.
Like most things, people are just overreacting because they haven't experienced it. OSL is wonderful, tense and dramatic and has been the premier SC tournament for a decade for a reason.
We experienced an SC2 OSL last year and it was bad.
You can't compare the level of KeSPA players during the first OSL (fresh from dual proleague) and now.
The GSL used to use best of 1 in early 2011. It was changed because it is an inferior format.
Starcraft 2 in 2011 was a complete joke. Especially the map pool.
On June 13 2013 15:23 hzflank wrote: No idea about what? Ofcourse Gom will do season 3, we already knew that and it is completely irrelevant.
So what do I not have any idea about? Are you trying to tell me that the OSL last year was as good as any of the GSL?
And why should people like me not complain? Gretech has done a great job for the last couple of years and have tweaked their format to make it better for us viewers. OGN is using a format without even considering what the viewers want to see. Best case is the results are the same but we get to watch less games, which makes it lose/lose.
Have you considered you are *not* OGN's main target audience? It's not like there was no eSports before SC2 or you came in.
So OGN main target audience is BW viewers that switched to SC2 ?
Their main audience is Korea, since they broadcast on TV.
And Koreans prefer Bo1 where there's a much higher chance that inferior players make it through on the back of silly cheese, mindgames, build order wins, you name it?
jesus fucking christ there is a reason nada was in every fucking single MSL he played. and fucking jaedong flash and all these people keep staying in the fucking OSL/MSL even if they get knocked out early.
if these peopel are soooooooooooo much better they will fucking qualify.
jesus christ u guys act like Flash soulkey innovation life all get knocked out and we get a fucking Shine vs hyvaa final or something.
And Nada was "just good" ? Same for Flash, JD ? As I see things, these were quite far above the pack...
Now, take SC2 where there is a bit more luck involved than BW, add to that the fact that nobody dominates the game as much as the players you mentionned dominated in their prime (yes, even INnoVation isn't on that level yet imo).
There, you have the reasons why this won't work as you expect. Plus, if it worked with Bo1, then it will work even better with Bo3 as far as "the better player wins" opposed to "a coinflip decides" (though even Bo3s allow upset on the back of "coinflippy" builds).
On June 13 2013 15:15 hzflank wrote: Why are OGN involved in this thing again? WCS Korea, and the WCS finals, would of been so much better if Gretech had done it all.
On June 13 2013 14:39 vesicular wrote: I seem to remember people pissing and moaning about Proleague when they found out the format after it switched to SC2 as well. In fact, you could probably just copy this thread and change "OSL" to "PL" and it would probably be the same thing. People eventually came around.
Like most things, people are just overreacting because they haven't experienced it. OSL is wonderful, tense and dramatic and has been the premier SC tournament for a decade for a reason.
We experienced an SC2 OSL last year and it was bad.
You can't compare the level of KeSPA players during the first OSL (fresh from dual proleague) and now.
The GSL used to use best of 1 in early 2011. It was changed because it is an inferior format.
Starcraft 2 in 2011 was a complete joke. Especially the map pool.
On June 13 2013 15:23 hzflank wrote: No idea about what? Ofcourse Gom will do season 3, we already knew that and it is completely irrelevant.
So what do I not have any idea about? Are you trying to tell me that the OSL last year was as good as any of the GSL?
And why should people like me not complain? Gretech has done a great job for the last couple of years and have tweaked their format to make it better for us viewers. OGN is using a format without even considering what the viewers want to see. Best case is the results are the same but we get to watch less games, which makes it lose/lose.
Have you considered you are *not* OGN's main target audience? It's not like there was no eSports before SC2 or you came in.
So OGN main target audience is BW viewers that switched to SC2 ?
Their main audience is Korea, since they broadcast on TV.
And Koreans prefer Bo1 where there's a much higher chance that inferior players make it through on the back of silly cheese, mindgames, build order wins, you name it?
jesus fucking christ there is a reason nada was in every fucking single MSL he played. and fucking jaedong flash and all these people keep staying in the fucking OSL/MSL even if they get knocked out early.
if these peopel are soooooooooooo much better they will fucking qualify.
jesus christ u guys act like Flash soulkey innovation life all get knocked out and we get a fucking Shine vs hyvaa final or something.
And Nada was "just good" ? Same for Flash, JD ? As I see things, these were quite far above the pack...
But it was just a bo1. sooner or later some of them must just die 2 a random cheese no? or are u saying these guys are so good they don't lose 2 stupid cheese. WOOOOOOOHO.
On June 13 2013 15:15 hzflank wrote: Why are OGN involved in this thing again? WCS Korea, and the WCS finals, would of been so much better if Gretech had done it all.
On June 13 2013 14:39 vesicular wrote: I seem to remember people pissing and moaning about Proleague when they found out the format after it switched to SC2 as well. In fact, you could probably just copy this thread and change "OSL" to "PL" and it would probably be the same thing. People eventually came around.
Like most things, people are just overreacting because they haven't experienced it. OSL is wonderful, tense and dramatic and has been the premier SC tournament for a decade for a reason.
We experienced an SC2 OSL last year and it was bad.
You can't compare the level of KeSPA players during the first OSL (fresh from dual proleague) and now.
The GSL used to use best of 1 in early 2011. It was changed because it is an inferior format.
Starcraft 2 in 2011 was a complete joke. Especially the map pool.
On June 13 2013 15:23 hzflank wrote: No idea about what? Ofcourse Gom will do season 3, we already knew that and it is completely irrelevant.
So what do I not have any idea about? Are you trying to tell me that the OSL last year was as good as any of the GSL?
And why should people like me not complain? Gretech has done a great job for the last couple of years and have tweaked their format to make it better for us viewers. OGN is using a format without even considering what the viewers want to see. Best case is the results are the same but we get to watch less games, which makes it lose/lose.
Have you considered you are *not* OGN's main target audience? It's not like there was no eSports before SC2 or you came in.
So OGN main target audience is BW viewers that switched to SC2 ?
Their main audience is Korea, since they broadcast on TV.
And Koreans prefer Bo1 where there's a much higher chance that inferior players make it through on the back of silly cheese, mindgames, build order wins, you name it?
jesus fucking christ there is a reason nada was in every fucking single MSL he played. and fucking jaedong flash and all these people keep staying in the fucking OSL/MSL even if they get knocked out early.
if these peopel are soooooooooooo much better they will fucking qualify.
jesus christ u guys act like Flash soulkey innovation life all get knocked out and we get a fucking Shine vs hyvaa final or something.
And Nada was "just good" ? Same for Flash, JD ? As I see things, these were quite far above the pack...
But it was just a bo1. sooner or later some of them must just die 2 a random cheese no? or are u saying these guys are so good they don't lose 2 stupid cheese. WOOOOOOOHO.
really, they never lost to stupid cheeses? i haven't watched every BW game but i would be insanely surprised if that has never happened at least a few times
People are being so ridiculous about this. First of all, just because it's Bo1 doesn't mean that it's "totally random" who's going to win. If it was that random, then inferior players would just cheese every game in a Bo3 as well and it'd still be totally random who'd make it through.
Secondly, what about Proleague? If Bo1 is so stupid and all that happens is the inferior player takes out the better player all the time, why are players like Flash, Bogus, Soulkey, Rain, etc, so dominant in Proleague? Why aren't we seeing them just going 50% because Bo1 is so random?
Thirdly, where exactly is the proof that things are so terrible in a Bo1 format? From the previous OSL, where the better players generally advanced? Or from two years ago, when the game was played completely differently? Calm the shit down and wait to see what happens.
On June 13 2013 16:42 GolemMadness wrote: People are being so ridiculous about this. First of all, just because it's Bo1 doesn't mean that it's "totally random" who's going to win. If it was that random, then inferior players would just cheese every game in a Bo3 as well and it'd still be totally random who'd make it through.
Secondly, what about Proleague? If Bo1 is so stupid and all that happens is the inferior player takes out the better player all the time, why are players like Flash, Bogus, Soulkey, Rain, etc, so dominant in Proleague? Why aren't we seeing them just going 50% because Bo1 is so random?
Thirdly, where exactly is the proof that things are so terrible in a Bo1 format? From the previous OSL, where the better players generally advanced? Or from two years ago, when the game was played completely differently? Calm the shit down and wait to see what happens.
My main concern is PvP, all of Rain's HotS losses in Proleague are vsP. He's 100% vs T and Z, PvP is just too build order reliant for bo1's.
On June 13 2013 15:15 hzflank wrote: Why are OGN involved in this thing again? WCS Korea, and the WCS finals, would of been so much better if Gretech had done it all.
On June 13 2013 14:39 vesicular wrote: I seem to remember people pissing and moaning about Proleague when they found out the format after it switched to SC2 as well. In fact, you could probably just copy this thread and change "OSL" to "PL" and it would probably be the same thing. People eventually came around.
Like most things, people are just overreacting because they haven't experienced it. OSL is wonderful, tense and dramatic and has been the premier SC tournament for a decade for a reason.
We experienced an SC2 OSL last year and it was bad.
You can't compare the level of KeSPA players during the first OSL (fresh from dual proleague) and now.
The GSL used to use best of 1 in early 2011. It was changed because it is an inferior format.
Starcraft 2 in 2011 was a complete joke. Especially the map pool.
On June 13 2013 15:23 hzflank wrote: No idea about what? Ofcourse Gom will do season 3, we already knew that and it is completely irrelevant.
So what do I not have any idea about? Are you trying to tell me that the OSL last year was as good as any of the GSL?
And why should people like me not complain? Gretech has done a great job for the last couple of years and have tweaked their format to make it better for us viewers. OGN is using a format without even considering what the viewers want to see. Best case is the results are the same but we get to watch less games, which makes it lose/lose.
Have you considered you are *not* OGN's main target audience? It's not like there was no eSports before SC2 or you came in.
So OGN main target audience is BW viewers that switched to SC2 ? And to be sure not to miss this huge core audience, they want to keep a format that involves more luck, in a game that's known to have a bit more luck involved as well than BW ?
I completely fail to understand what could possibly justify that. "Conserving uniformity" ? Well, keep your crappy format then.
Oh, and the fact that SC2 was a joke in 2011 is completely irrelevant, we talk about production quality.
OT: Same as the first SC2 OSL. Will watch a few matches, then wait for the finals, hoping for something interesting to watch..
Either improve, OGN, or please give that back to Gretech. GSL may not have the holy aura of BW behind it. It may not have the huuuuuge audience of OGN by many times. Still, it's been far better watching GSL than OSL so far in SC2. And the massive influx of KeSPA players made it even better.
if you don't like it don't watch it. meanwhile let us who like the OSL format enjoy it...
I'm just gonna state this every time Bo1 format comes up. I could take first place in a Bo1 group by proxy gating 2 times in a row and hoping my opponents build order lose to it. Mindgames man. In a Bo3+ the possibility of that working is infinitely smaller.
I dunno why everyones griping about the bo1 format lol definetly will make things interesting. I dont think it'll affect good players getting through. Means everyone has to play on their game every game and makes every THAT MUCH more important.
BTW this may have been asked already but does anyone have a link or image to the new osl map?
so now not only that because of the WCS we wont see here teaja, mc and other good players, we also get this fucking lame bo1 ro32. this WCS sucks, its making code S much worse!
Best of 1....need gtfo seriously. What a joke that is fml. Thanks for ruining the RO32 OSL, i appreciate it. I won't be tuning in until the RO16, which will be a lottery.
Expect the likes of Innovation/Soulkey/Flash all to go out in RO32 btw people. Better players don't win BO1s. Look at WCS main event just gone. If BO1 was viable the tournament would of been so different.
On June 13 2013 15:15 hzflank wrote: Why are OGN involved in this thing again? WCS Korea, and the WCS finals, would of been so much better if Gretech had done it all.
On June 13 2013 14:39 vesicular wrote: I seem to remember people pissing and moaning about Proleague when they found out the format after it switched to SC2 as well. In fact, you could probably just copy this thread and change "OSL" to "PL" and it would probably be the same thing. People eventually came around.
Like most things, people are just overreacting because they haven't experienced it. OSL is wonderful, tense and dramatic and has been the premier SC tournament for a decade for a reason.
We experienced an SC2 OSL last year and it was bad.
You can't compare the level of KeSPA players during the first OSL (fresh from dual proleague) and now.
The GSL used to use best of 1 in early 2011. It was changed because it is an inferior format.
Starcraft 2 in 2011 was a complete joke. Especially the map pool.
On June 13 2013 15:23 hzflank wrote: No idea about what? Ofcourse Gom will do season 3, we already knew that and it is completely irrelevant.
So what do I not have any idea about? Are you trying to tell me that the OSL last year was as good as any of the GSL?
And why should people like me not complain? Gretech has done a great job for the last couple of years and have tweaked their format to make it better for us viewers. OGN is using a format without even considering what the viewers want to see. Best case is the results are the same but we get to watch less games, which makes it lose/lose.
Have you considered you are *not* OGN's main target audience? It's not like there was no eSports before SC2 or you came in.
So OGN main target audience is BW viewers that switched to SC2 ? And to be sure not to miss this huge core audience, they want to keep a format that involves more luck, in a game that's known to have a bit more luck involved as well than BW ?
I completely fail to understand what could possibly justify that. "Conserving uniformity" ? Well, keep your crappy format then.
Oh, and the fact that SC2 was a joke in 2011 is completely irrelevant, we talk about production quality.
OT: Same as the first SC2 OSL. Will watch a few matches, then wait for the finals, hoping for something interesting to watch..
Either improve, OGN, or please give that back to Gretech. GSL may not have the holy aura of BW behind it. It may not have the huuuuuge audience of OGN by many times. Still, it's been far better watching GSL than OSL so far in SC2. And the massive influx of KeSPA players made it even better.
if you don't like it don't watch it. meanwhile let us who like the OSL format enjoy it...
I would have been totally fine with it.
If it was an OSL, and not a WCS OSL. Yep :/
On June 13 2013 16:46 Pandemona wrote: Best of 1....need gtfo seriously. What a joke that is fml. Thanks for ruining the RO32 OSL, i appreciate it. I won't be tuning in until the RO16, which will be a lottery.
Expect the likes of Innovation/Soulkey/Flash all to go out in RO32 btw people. Better players don't win BO1s. Look at WCS main event just gone. If BO1 was viable the tournament would of been so different.
Such a joke with BO1 :@
(yeah im pissed >.<)
Calm down. Even if Bo1 is more random, it's still quite not expected that Life/Flash/INno don't get through the Ro32...
On June 13 2013 16:42 GolemMadness wrote: People are being so ridiculous about this. First of all, just because it's Bo1 doesn't mean that it's "totally random" who's going to win. If it was that random, then inferior players would just cheese every game in a Bo3 as well and it'd still be totally random who'd make it through.
Secondly, what about Proleague? If Bo1 is so stupid and all that happens is the inferior player takes out the better player all the time, why are players like Flash, Bogus, Soulkey, Rain, etc, so dominant in Proleague? Why aren't we seeing them just going 50% because Bo1 is so random?
Thirdly, where exactly is the proof that things are so terrible in a Bo1 format? From the previous OSL, where the better players generally advanced? Or from two years ago, when the game was played completely differently? Calm the shit down and wait to see what happens.
My main concern is PvP, all of Rain's HotS losses in Proleague are vsP. He's 100% vs T and Z, PvP is just too build order reliant for bo1's.
I'd like to disagree, PvP is a matchup where even in a best of 1, the skill gap is very apparent. Build orders are not as important in PvP as they were in wings of liberty, all 3 tech trees have a good chance against the other tech trees and there are PvP build orders that don't lose outright to any other builds (of course you can choose builds that have hard counters like 3 gate pressure which just loses to DT). Most build order losses happen when you play too greedy, or you do an all-in that is countered. Safe stargate, robo or even DT expand doesn't really lose to anything.
On June 13 2013 16:45 DarkLordOlli wrote: I'm just gonna state this every time Bo1 format comes up. I could take first place in a Bo1 group by proxy gating 2 times in a row and hoping my opponents build order lose to it. Mindgames man. In a Bo3+ the possibility of that working is infinitely smaller.
don't u think that would happen alot if it was that freaking easy?
On June 13 2013 16:42 GolemMadness wrote: People are being so ridiculous about this. First of all, just because it's Bo1 doesn't mean that it's "totally random" who's going to win. If it was that random, then inferior players would just cheese every game in a Bo3 as well and it'd still be totally random who'd make it through.
Secondly, what about Proleague? If Bo1 is so stupid and all that happens is the inferior player takes out the better player all the time, why are players like Flash, Bogus, Soulkey, Rain, etc, so dominant in Proleague? Why aren't we seeing them just going 50% because Bo1 is so random?
Thirdly, where exactly is the proof that things are so terrible in a Bo1 format? From the previous OSL, where the better players generally advanced? Or from two years ago, when the game was played completely differently? Calm the shit down and wait to see what happens.
My main concern is PvP, all of Rain's HotS losses in Proleague are vsP. He's 100% vs T and Z, PvP is just too build order reliant for bo1's.
From what I've seen, Rain's only "build order loss" in recent games was when he went for a proxy twilight and it didn't work out. PvP isn't the same match up it was in WoL.
i'm guessing there's an element of pride as well in playing BO1s, fans probably won't like it if you cheese out the favourites to advance, so there's a bit of pressure to try at least a "real" game
On June 13 2013 15:15 hzflank wrote: Why are OGN involved in this thing again? WCS Korea, and the WCS finals, would of been so much better if Gretech had done it all.
On June 13 2013 14:39 vesicular wrote: I seem to remember people pissing and moaning about Proleague when they found out the format after it switched to SC2 as well. In fact, you could probably just copy this thread and change "OSL" to "PL" and it would probably be the same thing. People eventually came around.
Like most things, people are just overreacting because they haven't experienced it. OSL is wonderful, tense and dramatic and has been the premier SC tournament for a decade for a reason.
We experienced an SC2 OSL last year and it was bad.
You can't compare the level of KeSPA players during the first OSL (fresh from dual proleague) and now.
The GSL used to use best of 1 in early 2011. It was changed because it is an inferior format.
Starcraft 2 in 2011 was a complete joke. Especially the map pool.
On June 13 2013 15:23 hzflank wrote: No idea about what? Ofcourse Gom will do season 3, we already knew that and it is completely irrelevant.
So what do I not have any idea about? Are you trying to tell me that the OSL last year was as good as any of the GSL?
And why should people like me not complain? Gretech has done a great job for the last couple of years and have tweaked their format to make it better for us viewers. OGN is using a format without even considering what the viewers want to see. Best case is the results are the same but we get to watch less games, which makes it lose/lose.
Have you considered you are *not* OGN's main target audience? It's not like there was no eSports before SC2 or you came in.
So OGN main target audience is BW viewers that switched to SC2 ? And to be sure not to miss this huge core audience, they want to keep a format that involves more luck, in a game that's known to have a bit more luck involved as well than BW ?
I completely fail to understand what could possibly justify that. "Conserving uniformity" ? Well, keep your crappy format then.
Oh, and the fact that SC2 was a joke in 2011 is completely irrelevant, we talk about production quality.
OT: Same as the first SC2 OSL. Will watch a few matches, then wait for the finals, hoping for something interesting to watch..
Either improve, OGN, or please give that back to Gretech. GSL may not have the holy aura of BW behind it. It may not have the huuuuuge audience of OGN by many times. Still, it's been far better watching GSL than OSL so far in SC2. And the massive influx of KeSPA players made it even better.
if you don't like it don't watch it. meanwhile let us who like the OSL format enjoy it...
I would have been totally fine with it.
If it was an OSL, and not a WCS OSL. Yep :/
That's my problem with this exactly. Let OSL be OSL, whatever. It's their choice if they want a completely random Ro16. But this time they're a qualifier for something that's supposed to be the Masters of SC2. And Bo1 should not ever ever ever at any stage be used as a qualifying format for such an event.
On June 13 2013 15:15 hzflank wrote: Why are OGN involved in this thing again? WCS Korea, and the WCS finals, would of been so much better if Gretech had done it all.
On June 13 2013 14:39 vesicular wrote: I seem to remember people pissing and moaning about Proleague when they found out the format after it switched to SC2 as well. In fact, you could probably just copy this thread and change "OSL" to "PL" and it would probably be the same thing. People eventually came around.
Like most things, people are just overreacting because they haven't experienced it. OSL is wonderful, tense and dramatic and has been the premier SC tournament for a decade for a reason.
We experienced an SC2 OSL last year and it was bad.
You can't compare the level of KeSPA players during the first OSL (fresh from dual proleague) and now.
The GSL used to use best of 1 in early 2011. It was changed because it is an inferior format.
Starcraft 2 in 2011 was a complete joke. Especially the map pool.
On June 13 2013 15:23 hzflank wrote: No idea about what? Ofcourse Gom will do season 3, we already knew that and it is completely irrelevant.
So what do I not have any idea about? Are you trying to tell me that the OSL last year was as good as any of the GSL?
And why should people like me not complain? Gretech has done a great job for the last couple of years and have tweaked their format to make it better for us viewers. OGN is using a format without even considering what the viewers want to see. Best case is the results are the same but we get to watch less games, which makes it lose/lose.
Have you considered you are *not* OGN's main target audience? It's not like there was no eSports before SC2 or you came in.
So OGN main target audience is BW viewers that switched to SC2 ? And to be sure not to miss this huge core audience, they want to keep a format that involves more luck, in a game that's known to have a bit more luck involved as well than BW ?
I completely fail to understand what could possibly justify that. "Conserving uniformity" ? Well, keep your crappy format then.
Oh, and the fact that SC2 was a joke in 2011 is completely irrelevant, we talk about production quality.
OT: Same as the first SC2 OSL. Will watch a few matches, then wait for the finals, hoping for something interesting to watch..
Either improve, OGN, or please give that back to Gretech. GSL may not have the holy aura of BW behind it. It may not have the huuuuuge audience of OGN by many times. Still, it's been far better watching GSL than OSL so far in SC2. And the massive influx of KeSPA players made it even better.
if you don't like it don't watch it. meanwhile let us who like the OSL format enjoy it...
I would have been totally fine with it.
If it was an OSL, and not a WCS OSL. Yep :/
That's my problem with this exactly. Let OSL be OSL, whatever. It's their choice if they want a completely random Ro16. But this time they're a qualifier for something that's supposed to be the Masters of SC2. And Bo1 should not ever ever ever at any stage be used as a qualifying format for such an event.
Mvp and Hero are smiling right now going " LOL my WCS doesn't have to play BO1 "
On June 13 2013 16:45 DarkLordOlli wrote: I'm just gonna state this every time Bo1 format comes up. I could take first place in a Bo1 group by proxy gating 2 times in a row and hoping my opponents build order lose to it. Mindgames man. In a Bo3+ the possibility of that working is infinitely smaller.
Yeah, which is why we see all the players go for proxy gates in Proleague and the U&D matches.
On June 13 2013 16:45 DarkLordOlli wrote: I'm just gonna state this every time Bo1 format comes up. I could take first place in a Bo1 group by proxy gating 2 times in a row and hoping my opponents build order lose to it. Mindgames man. In a Bo3+ the possibility of that working is infinitely smaller.
don't u think that would happen alot if it was that freaking easy?
It does happen all the time in PL. Did you see the amount of things proxied this season?
On June 13 2013 15:15 hzflank wrote: Why are OGN involved in this thing again? WCS Korea, and the WCS finals, would of been so much better if Gretech had done it all.
On June 13 2013 14:39 vesicular wrote: I seem to remember people pissing and moaning about Proleague when they found out the format after it switched to SC2 as well. In fact, you could probably just copy this thread and change "OSL" to "PL" and it would probably be the same thing. People eventually came around.
Like most things, people are just overreacting because they haven't experienced it. OSL is wonderful, tense and dramatic and has been the premier SC tournament for a decade for a reason.
We experienced an SC2 OSL last year and it was bad.
You can't compare the level of KeSPA players during the first OSL (fresh from dual proleague) and now.
The GSL used to use best of 1 in early 2011. It was changed because it is an inferior format.
Starcraft 2 in 2011 was a complete joke. Especially the map pool.
On June 13 2013 15:23 hzflank wrote: No idea about what? Ofcourse Gom will do season 3, we already knew that and it is completely irrelevant.
So what do I not have any idea about? Are you trying to tell me that the OSL last year was as good as any of the GSL?
And why should people like me not complain? Gretech has done a great job for the last couple of years and have tweaked their format to make it better for us viewers. OGN is using a format without even considering what the viewers want to see. Best case is the results are the same but we get to watch less games, which makes it lose/lose.
Have you considered you are *not* OGN's main target audience? It's not like there was no eSports before SC2 or you came in.
So OGN main target audience is BW viewers that switched to SC2 ? And to be sure not to miss this huge core audience, they want to keep a format that involves more luck, in a game that's known to have a bit more luck involved as well than BW ?
I completely fail to understand what could possibly justify that. "Conserving uniformity" ? Well, keep your crappy format then.
Oh, and the fact that SC2 was a joke in 2011 is completely irrelevant, we talk about production quality.
OT: Same as the first SC2 OSL. Will watch a few matches, then wait for the finals, hoping for something interesting to watch..
Either improve, OGN, or please give that back to Gretech. GSL may not have the holy aura of BW behind it. It may not have the huuuuuge audience of OGN by many times. Still, it's been far better watching GSL than OSL so far in SC2. And the massive influx of KeSPA players made it even better.
if you don't like it don't watch it. meanwhile let us who like the OSL format enjoy it...
I would have been totally fine with it.
If it was an OSL, and not a WCS OSL. Yep :/
That's my problem with this exactly. Let OSL be OSL, whatever. It's their choice if they want a completely random Ro16. But this time they're a qualifier for something that's supposed to be the Masters of SC2. And Bo1 should not ever ever ever at any stage be used as a qualifying format for such an event.
If you actually think that Bo1 makes it completely random, then you're basically just saying that Starcraft 2 is a bad game.
On June 13 2013 16:45 DarkLordOlli wrote: I'm just gonna state this every time Bo1 format comes up. I could take first place in a Bo1 group by proxy gating 2 times in a row and hoping my opponents build order lose to it. Mindgames man. In a Bo3+ the possibility of that working is infinitely smaller.
Yeah, which is why we see all the players go for proxy gates in Proleague and the U&D matches.
On June 13 2013 15:15 hzflank wrote: Why are OGN involved in this thing again? WCS Korea, and the WCS finals, would of been so much better if Gretech had done it all.
On June 13 2013 14:39 vesicular wrote: I seem to remember people pissing and moaning about Proleague when they found out the format after it switched to SC2 as well. In fact, you could probably just copy this thread and change "OSL" to "PL" and it would probably be the same thing. People eventually came around.
Like most things, people are just overreacting because they haven't experienced it. OSL is wonderful, tense and dramatic and has been the premier SC tournament for a decade for a reason.
We experienced an SC2 OSL last year and it was bad.
You can't compare the level of KeSPA players during the first OSL (fresh from dual proleague) and now.
The GSL used to use best of 1 in early 2011. It was changed because it is an inferior format.
Starcraft 2 in 2011 was a complete joke. Especially the map pool.
On June 13 2013 15:23 hzflank wrote: No idea about what? Ofcourse Gom will do season 3, we already knew that and it is completely irrelevant.
So what do I not have any idea about? Are you trying to tell me that the OSL last year was as good as any of the GSL?
And why should people like me not complain? Gretech has done a great job for the last couple of years and have tweaked their format to make it better for us viewers. OGN is using a format without even considering what the viewers want to see. Best case is the results are the same but we get to watch less games, which makes it lose/lose.
Have you considered you are *not* OGN's main target audience? It's not like there was no eSports before SC2 or you came in.
So OGN main target audience is BW viewers that switched to SC2 ? And to be sure not to miss this huge core audience, they want to keep a format that involves more luck, in a game that's known to have a bit more luck involved as well than BW ?
I completely fail to understand what could possibly justify that. "Conserving uniformity" ? Well, keep your crappy format then.
Oh, and the fact that SC2 was a joke in 2011 is completely irrelevant, we talk about production quality.
OT: Same as the first SC2 OSL. Will watch a few matches, then wait for the finals, hoping for something interesting to watch..
Either improve, OGN, or please give that back to Gretech. GSL may not have the holy aura of BW behind it. It may not have the huuuuuge audience of OGN by many times. Still, it's been far better watching GSL than OSL so far in SC2. And the massive influx of KeSPA players made it even better.
if you don't like it don't watch it. meanwhile let us who like the OSL format enjoy it...
On June 13 2013 16:46 Pandemona wrote: Best of 1....need gtfo seriously. What a joke that is fml. Thanks for ruining the RO32 OSL, i appreciate it. I won't be tuning in until the RO16, which will be a lottery.
Expect the likes of Innovation/Soulkey/Flash all to go out in RO32 btw people. Better players don't win BO1s. Look at WCS main event just gone. If BO1 was viable the tournament would of been so different.
Such a joke with BO1 :@
(yeah im pissed >.<)
Calm down. Even if Bo1 is more random, it's still quite not expected that Life/Flash/INno don't get through the Ro32...
Just look at ProLeague thats all you need. Soulkey lost the other day in a BO1 format, however i bet he would of whiped the floor with him in a BO3. I bet at least 2 or 3 big players fall in the RO32, and im not talking mediocre players. BO1 is a lottery, ask any pro. 1 bad scout, 1 miss read 1 build order loss and GG your in the losers game
On June 13 2013 16:50 opterown wrote: i'm guessing there's an element of pride as well in playing BO1s, fans probably won't like it if you cheese out the favourites to advance, so there's a bit of pressure to try at least a "real" game
Clutching at straws their mr OPTown i wish that was the case, but when money is on the line no one gives a f...
On June 13 2013 15:15 hzflank wrote: Why are OGN involved in this thing again? WCS Korea, and the WCS finals, would of been so much better if Gretech had done it all.
On June 13 2013 14:39 vesicular wrote: I seem to remember people pissing and moaning about Proleague when they found out the format after it switched to SC2 as well. In fact, you could probably just copy this thread and change "OSL" to "PL" and it would probably be the same thing. People eventually came around.
Like most things, people are just overreacting because they haven't experienced it. OSL is wonderful, tense and dramatic and has been the premier SC tournament for a decade for a reason.
We experienced an SC2 OSL last year and it was bad.
You can't compare the level of KeSPA players during the first OSL (fresh from dual proleague) and now.
The GSL used to use best of 1 in early 2011. It was changed because it is an inferior format.
Starcraft 2 in 2011 was a complete joke. Especially the map pool.
On June 13 2013 15:23 hzflank wrote: No idea about what? Ofcourse Gom will do season 3, we already knew that and it is completely irrelevant.
So what do I not have any idea about? Are you trying to tell me that the OSL last year was as good as any of the GSL?
And why should people like me not complain? Gretech has done a great job for the last couple of years and have tweaked their format to make it better for us viewers. OGN is using a format without even considering what the viewers want to see. Best case is the results are the same but we get to watch less games, which makes it lose/lose.
Have you considered you are *not* OGN's main target audience? It's not like there was no eSports before SC2 or you came in.
So OGN main target audience is BW viewers that switched to SC2 ? And to be sure not to miss this huge core audience, they want to keep a format that involves more luck, in a game that's known to have a bit more luck involved as well than BW ?
I completely fail to understand what could possibly justify that. "Conserving uniformity" ? Well, keep your crappy format then.
Oh, and the fact that SC2 was a joke in 2011 is completely irrelevant, we talk about production quality.
OT: Same as the first SC2 OSL. Will watch a few matches, then wait for the finals, hoping for something interesting to watch..
Either improve, OGN, or please give that back to Gretech. GSL may not have the holy aura of BW behind it. It may not have the huuuuuge audience of OGN by many times. Still, it's been far better watching GSL than OSL so far in SC2. And the massive influx of KeSPA players made it even better.
if you don't like it don't watch it. meanwhile let us who like the OSL format enjoy it...
I would have been totally fine with it.
If it was an OSL, and not a WCS OSL. Yep :/
That's my problem with this exactly. Let OSL be OSL, whatever. It's their choice if they want a completely random Ro16. But this time they're a qualifier for something that's supposed to be the Masters of SC2. And Bo1 should not ever ever ever at any stage be used as a qualifying format for such an event.
If you actually think that Bo1 makes it completely random, then you're basically just saying that Starcraft 2 is a bad game.
WHAT THE FUCK
Tennis isn't decided in one set. Football isn't decided by who scores first. WTF Randomness would happen in football (soccer) as well if that were how it's decided. Does that make the whole game bad? What a garbage argument is that?
On June 13 2013 16:42 GolemMadness wrote: People are being so ridiculous about this. First of all, just because it's Bo1 doesn't mean that it's "totally random" who's going to win. If it was that random, then inferior players would just cheese every game in a Bo3 as well and it'd still be totally random who'd make it through.
Secondly, what about Proleague? If Bo1 is so stupid and all that happens is the inferior player takes out the better player all the time, why are players like Flash, Bogus, Soulkey, Rain, etc, so dominant in Proleague? Why aren't we seeing them just going 50% because Bo1 is so random?
Thirdly, where exactly is the proof that things are so terrible in a Bo1 format? From the previous OSL, where the better players generally advanced? Or from two years ago, when the game was played completely differently? Calm the shit down and wait to see what happens.
My main concern is PvP, all of Rain's HotS losses in Proleague are vsP. He's 100% vs T and Z, PvP is just too build order reliant for bo1's.
theres a time when Rain looked unbeatable when it got to the mid-game onward, isnt it? Whats scarier is that he played that out on purpose. I'd say if Rain does his scouting diligently, nullifies all the shenanigans, hes good to go.
On June 13 2013 16:45 DarkLordOlli wrote: I'm just gonna state this every time Bo1 format comes up. I could take first place in a Bo1 group by proxy gating 2 times in a row and hoping my opponents build order lose to it. Mindgames man. In a Bo3+ the possibility of that working is infinitely smaller.
don't u think that would happen alot if it was that freaking easy?
It does happen all the time in PL. Did you see the amount of things proxied this season?
to be honest, in PvP, proxying most stuff shouldn't work against a safe opener.
1) In-base 2 gate proxy: scout your base, don't pull a Brown and you will be fine. 2) Proxy anything after cyber core: Scout your opponent's base and check for missing pylons. If there are... 2a) Proxy stargate: 2 stalkers in mineral line solves it. 2b) Proxy DT: open robo and get observer. 2c) Proxy robo: who even does that? mamaship core deals with warp prism 4 gate which is the only reason you'd proxy a robo
Essentially, if you are caught pants down by proxy, you are not scouting well enough or playing too greedy.
On June 13 2013 16:45 DarkLordOlli wrote: I'm just gonna state this every time Bo1 format comes up. I could take first place in a Bo1 group by proxy gating 2 times in a row and hoping my opponents build order lose to it. Mindgames man. In a Bo3+ the possibility of that working is infinitely smaller.
Yeah, which is why we see all the players go for proxy gates in Proleague and the U&D matches.
There's proxy gates all the time in PL, lol.
When was the last time there was a proxy gate in a PvP?
On June 13 2013 16:45 DarkLordOlli wrote: I'm just gonna state this every time Bo1 format comes up. I could take first place in a Bo1 group by proxy gating 2 times in a row and hoping my opponents build order lose to it. Mindgames man. In a Bo3+ the possibility of that working is infinitely smaller.
don't u think that would happen alot if it was that freaking easy?
It does happen all the time in PL. Did you see the amount of things proxied this season?
i talk about placing first in a grp with this shit. also if it's so easy to get 2 wins. why not make ro16 bo5? or u might get an easy 2:0 win.
On June 13 2013 15:15 hzflank wrote: Why are OGN involved in this thing again? WCS Korea, and the WCS finals, would of been so much better if Gretech had done it all.
On June 13 2013 14:39 vesicular wrote: I seem to remember people pissing and moaning about Proleague when they found out the format after it switched to SC2 as well. In fact, you could probably just copy this thread and change "OSL" to "PL" and it would probably be the same thing. People eventually came around.
Like most things, people are just overreacting because they haven't experienced it. OSL is wonderful, tense and dramatic and has been the premier SC tournament for a decade for a reason.
We experienced an SC2 OSL last year and it was bad.
You can't compare the level of KeSPA players during the first OSL (fresh from dual proleague) and now.
The GSL used to use best of 1 in early 2011. It was changed because it is an inferior format.
Starcraft 2 in 2011 was a complete joke. Especially the map pool.
On June 13 2013 15:23 hzflank wrote: No idea about what? Ofcourse Gom will do season 3, we already knew that and it is completely irrelevant.
So what do I not have any idea about? Are you trying to tell me that the OSL last year was as good as any of the GSL?
And why should people like me not complain? Gretech has done a great job for the last couple of years and have tweaked their format to make it better for us viewers. OGN is using a format without even considering what the viewers want to see. Best case is the results are the same but we get to watch less games, which makes it lose/lose.
Have you considered you are *not* OGN's main target audience? It's not like there was no eSports before SC2 or you came in.
So OGN main target audience is BW viewers that switched to SC2 ? And to be sure not to miss this huge core audience, they want to keep a format that involves more luck, in a game that's known to have a bit more luck involved as well than BW ?
I completely fail to understand what could possibly justify that. "Conserving uniformity" ? Well, keep your crappy format then.
Oh, and the fact that SC2 was a joke in 2011 is completely irrelevant, we talk about production quality.
OT: Same as the first SC2 OSL. Will watch a few matches, then wait for the finals, hoping for something interesting to watch..
Either improve, OGN, or please give that back to Gretech. GSL may not have the holy aura of BW behind it. It may not have the huuuuuge audience of OGN by many times. Still, it's been far better watching GSL than OSL so far in SC2. And the massive influx of KeSPA players made it even better.
if you don't like it don't watch it. meanwhile let us who like the OSL format enjoy it...
I would have been totally fine with it.
If it was an OSL, and not a WCS OSL. Yep :/
That's my problem with this exactly. Let OSL be OSL, whatever. It's their choice if they want a completely random Ro16. But this time they're a qualifier for something that's supposed to be the Masters of SC2. And Bo1 should not ever ever ever at any stage be used as a qualifying format for such an event.
If you actually think that Bo1 makes it completely random, then you're basically just saying that Starcraft 2 is a bad game.
WHAT THE FUCK
Tennis isn't decided in one set. Football isn't decided by who scores first. WTF Randomness would happen in football (soccer) as well if that were how it's decided. Does that make the whole game bad? What a garbage argument is that?
That wasn't even an argument. That was pure provocation.
On June 13 2013 15:15 hzflank wrote: Why are OGN involved in this thing again? WCS Korea, and the WCS finals, would of been so much better if Gretech had done it all.
On June 13 2013 14:39 vesicular wrote: I seem to remember people pissing and moaning about Proleague when they found out the format after it switched to SC2 as well. In fact, you could probably just copy this thread and change "OSL" to "PL" and it would probably be the same thing. People eventually came around.
Like most things, people are just overreacting because they haven't experienced it. OSL is wonderful, tense and dramatic and has been the premier SC tournament for a decade for a reason.
We experienced an SC2 OSL last year and it was bad.
You can't compare the level of KeSPA players during the first OSL (fresh from dual proleague) and now.
The GSL used to use best of 1 in early 2011. It was changed because it is an inferior format.
Starcraft 2 in 2011 was a complete joke. Especially the map pool.
On June 13 2013 15:23 hzflank wrote: No idea about what? Ofcourse Gom will do season 3, we already knew that and it is completely irrelevant.
So what do I not have any idea about? Are you trying to tell me that the OSL last year was as good as any of the GSL?
And why should people like me not complain? Gretech has done a great job for the last couple of years and have tweaked their format to make it better for us viewers. OGN is using a format without even considering what the viewers want to see. Best case is the results are the same but we get to watch less games, which makes it lose/lose.
Have you considered you are *not* OGN's main target audience? It's not like there was no eSports before SC2 or you came in.
So OGN main target audience is BW viewers that switched to SC2 ? And to be sure not to miss this huge core audience, they want to keep a format that involves more luck, in a game that's known to have a bit more luck involved as well than BW ?
I completely fail to understand what could possibly justify that. "Conserving uniformity" ? Well, keep your crappy format then.
Oh, and the fact that SC2 was a joke in 2011 is completely irrelevant, we talk about production quality.
OT: Same as the first SC2 OSL. Will watch a few matches, then wait for the finals, hoping for something interesting to watch..
Either improve, OGN, or please give that back to Gretech. GSL may not have the holy aura of BW behind it. It may not have the huuuuuge audience of OGN by many times. Still, it's been far better watching GSL than OSL so far in SC2. And the massive influx of KeSPA players made it even better.
if you don't like it don't watch it. meanwhile let us who like the OSL format enjoy it...
I would have been totally fine with it.
If it was an OSL, and not a WCS OSL. Yep :/
On June 13 2013 16:46 Pandemona wrote: Best of 1....need gtfo seriously. What a joke that is fml. Thanks for ruining the RO32 OSL, i appreciate it. I won't be tuning in until the RO16, which will be a lottery.
Expect the likes of Innovation/Soulkey/Flash all to go out in RO32 btw people. Better players don't win BO1s. Look at WCS main event just gone. If BO1 was viable the tournament would of been so different.
Such a joke with BO1 :@
(yeah im pissed >.<)
Calm down. Even if Bo1 is more random, it's still quite not expected that Life/Flash/INno don't get through the Ro32...
Just look at ProLeague thats all you need. Soulkey lost the other day in a BO1 format, however i bet he would of whiped the floor with him in a BO3. I bet at least 2 or 3 big players fall in the RO32, and im not talking mediocre players. BO1 is a lottery, ask any pro. 1 bad scout, 1 miss read 1 build order loss and GG your in the losers game
flash / rain / parting / drg / mc all breezed through the ro32 / ro16 last year and they were probably the strongest players from the last osl aside from maybe mvp
On June 13 2013 15:15 hzflank wrote: Why are OGN involved in this thing again? WCS Korea, and the WCS finals, would of been so much better if Gretech had done it all.
On June 13 2013 14:39 vesicular wrote: I seem to remember people pissing and moaning about Proleague when they found out the format after it switched to SC2 as well. In fact, you could probably just copy this thread and change "OSL" to "PL" and it would probably be the same thing. People eventually came around.
Like most things, people are just overreacting because they haven't experienced it. OSL is wonderful, tense and dramatic and has been the premier SC tournament for a decade for a reason.
We experienced an SC2 OSL last year and it was bad.
You can't compare the level of KeSPA players during the first OSL (fresh from dual proleague) and now.
The GSL used to use best of 1 in early 2011. It was changed because it is an inferior format.
Starcraft 2 in 2011 was a complete joke. Especially the map pool.
On June 13 2013 15:23 hzflank wrote: No idea about what? Ofcourse Gom will do season 3, we already knew that and it is completely irrelevant.
So what do I not have any idea about? Are you trying to tell me that the OSL last year was as good as any of the GSL?
And why should people like me not complain? Gretech has done a great job for the last couple of years and have tweaked their format to make it better for us viewers. OGN is using a format without even considering what the viewers want to see. Best case is the results are the same but we get to watch less games, which makes it lose/lose.
Have you considered you are *not* OGN's main target audience? It's not like there was no eSports before SC2 or you came in.
So OGN main target audience is BW viewers that switched to SC2 ? And to be sure not to miss this huge core audience, they want to keep a format that involves more luck, in a game that's known to have a bit more luck involved as well than BW ?
I completely fail to understand what could possibly justify that. "Conserving uniformity" ? Well, keep your crappy format then.
Oh, and the fact that SC2 was a joke in 2011 is completely irrelevant, we talk about production quality.
OT: Same as the first SC2 OSL. Will watch a few matches, then wait for the finals, hoping for something interesting to watch..
Either improve, OGN, or please give that back to Gretech. GSL may not have the holy aura of BW behind it. It may not have the huuuuuge audience of OGN by many times. Still, it's been far better watching GSL than OSL so far in SC2. And the massive influx of KeSPA players made it even better.
if you don't like it don't watch it. meanwhile let us who like the OSL format enjoy it...
I would have been totally fine with it.
If it was an OSL, and not a WCS OSL. Yep :/
That's my problem with this exactly. Let OSL be OSL, whatever. It's their choice if they want a completely random Ro16. But this time they're a qualifier for something that's supposed to be the Masters of SC2. And Bo1 should not ever ever ever at any stage be used as a qualifying format for such an event.
If you actually think that Bo1 makes it completely random, then you're basically just saying that Starcraft 2 is a bad game.
WHAT THE FUCK
Tennis isn't decided in one set. Football isn't decided by who scores first. WTF Randomness would happen in football (soccer) as well if that were how it's decided. Does that make the whole game bad? What a garbage argument is that?
If you think that Bo1 is completely random, then you're saying that skill means nothing and every single person in the tournament has an equal opportunity to make it through. It's pretty ironic that you mention football, since the super bowl IS a Bo1.
On June 13 2013 16:45 DarkLordOlli wrote: I'm just gonna state this every time Bo1 format comes up. I could take first place in a Bo1 group by proxy gating 2 times in a row and hoping my opponents build order lose to it. Mindgames man. In a Bo3+ the possibility of that working is infinitely smaller.
Yeah, which is why we see all the players go for proxy gates in Proleague and the U&D matches.
There's proxy gates all the time in PL, lol.
When was the last time there was a proxy gate in a PvP?
Why just PvP? There's proxy gates in every matchup, lol. HerO vs Flash, Jaedong vs I forgot who, Stork vs Zest, etcetc.
Btw WCS Finals had sOs proxy gating HerO
Then there was Rain proxy DTing herO, LiquidHerO proxy Stargate'ing a bunch of people, etcetcetcetc.
On June 13 2013 16:45 DarkLordOlli wrote: I'm just gonna state this every time Bo1 format comes up. I could take first place in a Bo1 group by proxy gating 2 times in a row and hoping my opponents build order lose to it. Mindgames man. In a Bo3+ the possibility of that working is infinitely smaller.
don't u think that would happen alot if it was that freaking easy?
It does happen all the time in PL. Did you see the amount of things proxied this season?
to be honest, in PvP, proxying most stuff shouldn't work against a safe opener.
1) In-base 2 gate proxy: scout your base, don't pull a Brown and you will be fine. 2) Proxy anything after cyber core: Scout your opponent's base and check for missing pylons. If there are... 2a) Proxy stargate: 2 stalkers in mineral line solves it. 2b) Proxy DT: open robo and get observer. 2c) Proxy robo: who even does that? mamaship core deals with warp prism 4 gate which is the only reason you'd proxy a robo
Essentially, what this means is a 1 gate robo expand is perfectly safe against all proxies.
Essentially, if you are caught pants down by proxy, you are not scouting well enough or playing too greedy.
On June 13 2013 15:15 hzflank wrote: Why are OGN involved in this thing again? WCS Korea, and the WCS finals, would of been so much better if Gretech had done it all.
On June 13 2013 14:39 vesicular wrote: I seem to remember people pissing and moaning about Proleague when they found out the format after it switched to SC2 as well. In fact, you could probably just copy this thread and change "OSL" to "PL" and it would probably be the same thing. People eventually came around.
Like most things, people are just overreacting because they haven't experienced it. OSL is wonderful, tense and dramatic and has been the premier SC tournament for a decade for a reason.
We experienced an SC2 OSL last year and it was bad.
You can't compare the level of KeSPA players during the first OSL (fresh from dual proleague) and now.
The GSL used to use best of 1 in early 2011. It was changed because it is an inferior format.
Starcraft 2 in 2011 was a complete joke. Especially the map pool.
On June 13 2013 15:23 hzflank wrote: No idea about what? Ofcourse Gom will do season 3, we already knew that and it is completely irrelevant.
So what do I not have any idea about? Are you trying to tell me that the OSL last year was as good as any of the GSL?
And why should people like me not complain? Gretech has done a great job for the last couple of years and have tweaked their format to make it better for us viewers. OGN is using a format without even considering what the viewers want to see. Best case is the results are the same but we get to watch less games, which makes it lose/lose.
Have you considered you are *not* OGN's main target audience? It's not like there was no eSports before SC2 or you came in.
So OGN main target audience is BW viewers that switched to SC2 ? And to be sure not to miss this huge core audience, they want to keep a format that involves more luck, in a game that's known to have a bit more luck involved as well than BW ?
I completely fail to understand what could possibly justify that. "Conserving uniformity" ? Well, keep your crappy format then.
Oh, and the fact that SC2 was a joke in 2011 is completely irrelevant, we talk about production quality.
OT: Same as the first SC2 OSL. Will watch a few matches, then wait for the finals, hoping for something interesting to watch..
Either improve, OGN, or please give that back to Gretech. GSL may not have the holy aura of BW behind it. It may not have the huuuuuge audience of OGN by many times. Still, it's been far better watching GSL than OSL so far in SC2. And the massive influx of KeSPA players made it even better.
if you don't like it don't watch it. meanwhile let us who like the OSL format enjoy it...
I would have been totally fine with it.
If it was an OSL, and not a WCS OSL. Yep :/
That's my problem with this exactly. Let OSL be OSL, whatever. It's their choice if they want a completely random Ro16. But this time they're a qualifier for something that's supposed to be the Masters of SC2. And Bo1 should not ever ever ever at any stage be used as a qualifying format for such an event.
If you actually think that Bo1 makes it completely random, then you're basically just saying that Starcraft 2 is a bad game.
WHAT THE FUCK
Tennis isn't decided in one set. Football isn't decided by who scores first. WTF Randomness would happen in football (soccer) as well if that were how it's decided. Does that make the whole game bad? What a garbage argument is that?
If you think that Bo1 is completely random, then you're saying that skill means nothing and every single person in the tournament has an equal opportunity to make it through. It's pretty ironic that you mention football, since the super bowl IS a Bo1.
Soccer. Bo1 in football would be like... the first touchdown wins.
On June 13 2013 15:15 hzflank wrote: Why are OGN involved in this thing again? WCS Korea, and the WCS finals, would of been so much better if Gretech had done it all.
On June 13 2013 14:39 vesicular wrote: I seem to remember people pissing and moaning about Proleague when they found out the format after it switched to SC2 as well. In fact, you could probably just copy this thread and change "OSL" to "PL" and it would probably be the same thing. People eventually came around.
Like most things, people are just overreacting because they haven't experienced it. OSL is wonderful, tense and dramatic and has been the premier SC tournament for a decade for a reason.
We experienced an SC2 OSL last year and it was bad.
You can't compare the level of KeSPA players during the first OSL (fresh from dual proleague) and now.
The GSL used to use best of 1 in early 2011. It was changed because it is an inferior format.
Starcraft 2 in 2011 was a complete joke. Especially the map pool.
On June 13 2013 15:23 hzflank wrote: No idea about what? Ofcourse Gom will do season 3, we already knew that and it is completely irrelevant.
So what do I not have any idea about? Are you trying to tell me that the OSL last year was as good as any of the GSL?
And why should people like me not complain? Gretech has done a great job for the last couple of years and have tweaked their format to make it better for us viewers. OGN is using a format without even considering what the viewers want to see. Best case is the results are the same but we get to watch less games, which makes it lose/lose.
Have you considered you are *not* OGN's main target audience? It's not like there was no eSports before SC2 or you came in.
So OGN main target audience is BW viewers that switched to SC2 ? And to be sure not to miss this huge core audience, they want to keep a format that involves more luck, in a game that's known to have a bit more luck involved as well than BW ?
I completely fail to understand what could possibly justify that. "Conserving uniformity" ? Well, keep your crappy format then.
Oh, and the fact that SC2 was a joke in 2011 is completely irrelevant, we talk about production quality.
OT: Same as the first SC2 OSL. Will watch a few matches, then wait for the finals, hoping for something interesting to watch..
Either improve, OGN, or please give that back to Gretech. GSL may not have the holy aura of BW behind it. It may not have the huuuuuge audience of OGN by many times. Still, it's been far better watching GSL than OSL so far in SC2. And the massive influx of KeSPA players made it even better.
if you don't like it don't watch it. meanwhile let us who like the OSL format enjoy it...
I would have been totally fine with it.
If it was an OSL, and not a WCS OSL. Yep :/
On June 13 2013 16:46 Pandemona wrote: Best of 1....need gtfo seriously. What a joke that is fml. Thanks for ruining the RO32 OSL, i appreciate it. I won't be tuning in until the RO16, which will be a lottery.
Expect the likes of Innovation/Soulkey/Flash all to go out in RO32 btw people. Better players don't win BO1s. Look at WCS main event just gone. If BO1 was viable the tournament would of been so different.
Such a joke with BO1 :@
(yeah im pissed >.<)
Calm down. Even if Bo1 is more random, it's still quite not expected that Life/Flash/INno don't get through the Ro32...
Just look at ProLeague thats all you need. Soulkey lost the other day in a BO1 format, however i bet he would of whiped the floor with him in a BO3. I bet at least 2 or 3 big players fall in the RO32, and im not talking mediocre players. BO1 is a lottery, ask any pro. 1 bad scout, 1 miss read 1 build order loss and GG your in the losers game
flash / rain / parting / drg / mc all breezed through the ro32 / ro16 last year and they were probably the strongest players from the last osl aside from maybe mvp
Was a year ago though sir. Lots changed then like KESPA players been training a whole year solidly on SC2. Plus like i said you just have to look at the ProLeague. KESPA training for the players on a map they know agaisnt a race they know. CHEESE fest, especially these new maps they bring out lately xD
On June 13 2013 16:45 DarkLordOlli wrote: I'm just gonna state this every time Bo1 format comes up. I could take first place in a Bo1 group by proxy gating 2 times in a row and hoping my opponents build order lose to it. Mindgames man. In a Bo3+ the possibility of that working is infinitely smaller.
Yeah, which is why we see all the players go for proxy gates in Proleague and the U&D matches.
There's proxy gates all the time in PL, lol.
When was the last time there was a proxy gate in a PvP?
Why just PvP? There's proxy gates in every matchup, lol. HerO vs Flash, Jaedong vs I forgot who, Stork vs Zest, etcetc.
Btw WCS Finals had sOs proxy gating HerO
So basically, a few times a month? But since Bo1 is so random, why doesn't the inferior player just go for a proxy gate every single game so that they have a completely equal chance of winning?
On June 13 2013 15:15 hzflank wrote: Why are OGN involved in this thing again? WCS Korea, and the WCS finals, would of been so much better if Gretech had done it all.
On June 13 2013 14:39 vesicular wrote: I seem to remember people pissing and moaning about Proleague when they found out the format after it switched to SC2 as well. In fact, you could probably just copy this thread and change "OSL" to "PL" and it would probably be the same thing. People eventually came around.
Like most things, people are just overreacting because they haven't experienced it. OSL is wonderful, tense and dramatic and has been the premier SC tournament for a decade for a reason.
We experienced an SC2 OSL last year and it was bad.
You can't compare the level of KeSPA players during the first OSL (fresh from dual proleague) and now.
The GSL used to use best of 1 in early 2011. It was changed because it is an inferior format.
Starcraft 2 in 2011 was a complete joke. Especially the map pool.
On June 13 2013 15:23 hzflank wrote: No idea about what? Ofcourse Gom will do season 3, we already knew that and it is completely irrelevant.
So what do I not have any idea about? Are you trying to tell me that the OSL last year was as good as any of the GSL?
And why should people like me not complain? Gretech has done a great job for the last couple of years and have tweaked their format to make it better for us viewers. OGN is using a format without even considering what the viewers want to see. Best case is the results are the same but we get to watch less games, which makes it lose/lose.
Have you considered you are *not* OGN's main target audience? It's not like there was no eSports before SC2 or you came in.
So OGN main target audience is BW viewers that switched to SC2 ? And to be sure not to miss this huge core audience, they want to keep a format that involves more luck, in a game that's known to have a bit more luck involved as well than BW ?
I completely fail to understand what could possibly justify that. "Conserving uniformity" ? Well, keep your crappy format then.
Oh, and the fact that SC2 was a joke in 2011 is completely irrelevant, we talk about production quality.
OT: Same as the first SC2 OSL. Will watch a few matches, then wait for the finals, hoping for something interesting to watch..
Either improve, OGN, or please give that back to Gretech. GSL may not have the holy aura of BW behind it. It may not have the huuuuuge audience of OGN by many times. Still, it's been far better watching GSL than OSL so far in SC2. And the massive influx of KeSPA players made it even better.
if you don't like it don't watch it. meanwhile let us who like the OSL format enjoy it...
I would have been totally fine with it.
If it was an OSL, and not a WCS OSL. Yep :/
That's my problem with this exactly. Let OSL be OSL, whatever. It's their choice if they want a completely random Ro16. But this time they're a qualifier for something that's supposed to be the Masters of SC2. And Bo1 should not ever ever ever at any stage be used as a qualifying format for such an event.
If you actually think that Bo1 makes it completely random, then you're basically just saying that Starcraft 2 is a bad game.
WHAT THE FUCK
Tennis isn't decided in one set. Football isn't decided by who scores first. WTF Randomness would happen in football (soccer) as well if that were how it's decided. Does that make the whole game bad? What a garbage argument is that?
If you think that Bo1 is completely random, then you're saying that skill means nothing and every single person in the tournament has an equal opportunity to make it through. It's pretty ironic that you mention football, since the super bowl IS a Bo1.
I was on your side (sort of) until you thought football = hand-egg
On June 13 2013 16:45 DarkLordOlli wrote: I'm just gonna state this every time Bo1 format comes up. I could take first place in a Bo1 group by proxy gating 2 times in a row and hoping my opponents build order lose to it. Mindgames man. In a Bo3+ the possibility of that working is infinitely smaller.
Yeah, which is why we see all the players go for proxy gates in Proleague and the U&D matches.
There's proxy gates all the time in PL, lol.
When was the last time there was a proxy gate in a PvP?
Why just PvP? There's proxy gates in every matchup, lol. HerO vs Flash, Jaedong vs I forgot who, Stork vs Zest, etcetc.
Btw WCS Finals had sOs proxy gating HerO
So basically, a few times a month? But since Bo1 is so random, why doesn't the inferior player just go for a proxy gate every single game so that they have a completely equal chance of winning?
Because it gets predictable? But doing it twice in a row immediately is a legitimate mindgame. Just like Seed doing his proxy warp prism all in twice in a row to mess with MC's head. That would never work if he did it every game. But hey, it would've gotten him first place in a Bo1 group already.
On June 13 2013 16:45 DarkLordOlli wrote: I'm just gonna state this every time Bo1 format comes up. I could take first place in a Bo1 group by proxy gating 2 times in a row and hoping my opponents build order lose to it. Mindgames man. In a Bo3+ the possibility of that working is infinitely smaller.
Yeah, which is why we see all the players go for proxy gates in Proleague and the U&D matches.
There's proxy gates all the time in PL, lol.
When was the last time there was a proxy gate in a PvP?
Why just PvP? There's proxy gates in every matchup, lol. HerO vs Flash, Jaedong vs I forgot who, Stork vs Zest, etcetc.
Btw WCS Finals had sOs proxy gating HerO
So basically, a few times a month? But since Bo1 is so random, why doesn't the inferior player just go for a proxy gate every single game so that they have a completely equal chance of winning?
Flash just proxy Starport'ed Fantasy in PL lol (I just found it funny)
On June 13 2013 16:45 DarkLordOlli wrote: I'm just gonna state this every time Bo1 format comes up. I could take first place in a Bo1 group by proxy gating 2 times in a row and hoping my opponents build order lose to it. Mindgames man. In a Bo3+ the possibility of that working is infinitely smaller.
Yeah, which is why we see all the players go for proxy gates in Proleague and the U&D matches.
There's proxy gates all the time in PL, lol.
When was the last time there was a proxy gate in a PvP?
Why just PvP? There's proxy gates in every matchup, lol. HerO vs Flash, Jaedong vs I forgot who, Stork vs Zest, etcetc.
Btw WCS Finals had sOs proxy gating HerO
So basically, a few times a month? But since Bo1 is so random, why doesn't the inferior player just go for a proxy gate every single game so that they have a completely equal chance of winning?
Because it gets predictable? But doing it twice in a row immediately is a legitimate mindgame. Just like Seed doing his proxy warp prism all in twice in a row to mess with MC's head. That would never work if he did it every game. But hey, it would've gotten him first place in a Bo1 group already.
so why was it always the same ~10-12 players with 4-6 new ones? if it's so easy 2 just cheese out of a grp.
On June 13 2013 16:45 DarkLordOlli wrote: I'm just gonna state this every time Bo1 format comes up. I could take first place in a Bo1 group by proxy gating 2 times in a row and hoping my opponents build order lose to it. Mindgames man. In a Bo3+ the possibility of that working is infinitely smaller.
Yeah, which is why we see all the players go for proxy gates in Proleague and the U&D matches.
There's proxy gates all the time in PL, lol.
When was the last time there was a proxy gate in a PvP?
Why just PvP? There's proxy gates in every matchup, lol. HerO vs Flash, Jaedong vs I forgot who, Stork vs Zest, etcetc.
Btw WCS Finals had sOs proxy gating HerO
So basically, a few times a month? But since Bo1 is so random, why doesn't the inferior player just go for a proxy gate every single game so that they have a completely equal chance of winning?
Because it gets predictable? But doing it twice in a row immediately is a legitimate mindgame. Just like Seed doing his proxy warp prism all in twice in a row to mess with MC's head. That would never work if he did it every game. But hey, it would've gotten him first place in a Bo1 group already.
so why was it always the same ~10-12 players with 4-6 new ones? if it's so easy 2 just cheese out of a grp.
BW =|= SC2. More randomness in SC2. For the millionth time.
Also who said it's easy? I'm saying it's far more about luck than a Bo3.
On June 13 2013 16:45 DarkLordOlli wrote: I'm just gonna state this every time Bo1 format comes up. I could take first place in a Bo1 group by proxy gating 2 times in a row and hoping my opponents build order lose to it. Mindgames man. In a Bo3+ the possibility of that working is infinitely smaller.
Yeah, which is why we see all the players go for proxy gates in Proleague and the U&D matches.
There's proxy gates all the time in PL, lol.
When was the last time there was a proxy gate in a PvP?
Why just PvP? There's proxy gates in every matchup, lol. HerO vs Flash, Jaedong vs I forgot who, Stork vs Zest, etcetc.
Btw WCS Finals had sOs proxy gating HerO
So basically, a few times a month? But since Bo1 is so random, why doesn't the inferior player just go for a proxy gate every single game so that they have a completely equal chance of winning?
Because it gets predictable? But doing it twice in a row immediately is a legitimate mindgame. Just like Seed doing his proxy warp prism all in twice in a row to mess with MC's head. That would never work if he did it every game. But hey, it would've gotten him first place in a Bo1 group already.
so why was it always the same ~10-12 players with 4-6 new ones? if it's so easy 2 just cheese out of a grp.
BW =|= SC2. More randomness in SC2. For the millionth time.
so you are saying SC2 is trash and rewards bad players?
On June 13 2013 16:45 DarkLordOlli wrote: I'm just gonna state this every time Bo1 format comes up. I could take first place in a Bo1 group by proxy gating 2 times in a row and hoping my opponents build order lose to it. Mindgames man. In a Bo3+ the possibility of that working is infinitely smaller.
Yeah, which is why we see all the players go for proxy gates in Proleague and the U&D matches.
There's proxy gates all the time in PL, lol.
When was the last time there was a proxy gate in a PvP?
Why just PvP? There's proxy gates in every matchup, lol. HerO vs Flash, Jaedong vs I forgot who, Stork vs Zest, etcetc.
Btw WCS Finals had sOs proxy gating HerO
So basically, a few times a month? But since Bo1 is so random, why doesn't the inferior player just go for a proxy gate every single game so that they have a completely equal chance of winning?
Because it gets predictable? But doing it twice in a row immediately is a legitimate mindgame. Just like Seed doing his proxy warp prism all in twice in a row to mess with MC's head. That would never work if he did it every game. But hey, it would've gotten him first place in a Bo1 group already.
so why was it always the same ~10-12 players with 4-6 new ones? if it's so easy 2 just cheese out of a grp.
BW =|= SC2. More randomness in SC2. For the millionth time.
so you are saying SC2 is trash and rewards bad players?
Stop putting words in my mouth, especially if it's gonna be such garbage. I'm saying Bo1 rewards worse players. The longer a series, the higher chances are the better player wins. That's just how it works. If you don't understand that then there's no point in arguing with you and I'd recommend you go to school and take a basic math course that teaches probability.
On June 13 2013 16:45 DarkLordOlli wrote: I'm just gonna state this every time Bo1 format comes up. I could take first place in a Bo1 group by proxy gating 2 times in a row and hoping my opponents build order lose to it. Mindgames man. In a Bo3+ the possibility of that working is infinitely smaller.
Yeah, which is why we see all the players go for proxy gates in Proleague and the U&D matches.
There's proxy gates all the time in PL, lol.
When was the last time there was a proxy gate in a PvP?
Why just PvP? There's proxy gates in every matchup, lol. HerO vs Flash, Jaedong vs I forgot who, Stork vs Zest, etcetc.
Btw WCS Finals had sOs proxy gating HerO
So basically, a few times a month? But since Bo1 is so random, why doesn't the inferior player just go for a proxy gate every single game so that they have a completely equal chance of winning?
Because it gets predictable? But doing it twice in a row immediately is a legitimate mindgame. Just like Seed doing his proxy warp prism all in twice in a row to mess with MC's head. That would never work if he did it every game. But hey, it would've gotten him first place in a Bo1 group already.
so why was it always the same ~10-12 players with 4-6 new ones? if it's so easy 2 just cheese out of a grp.
BW =|= SC2. More randomness in SC2. For the millionth time.
so you are saying SC2 is trash and rewards bad players?
No he is not, for the hundreth time. Read his posts and stop trolling.
On June 13 2013 16:45 DarkLordOlli wrote: I'm just gonna state this every time Bo1 format comes up. I could take first place in a Bo1 group by proxy gating 2 times in a row and hoping my opponents build order lose to it. Mindgames man. In a Bo3+ the possibility of that working is infinitely smaller.
Yeah, which is why we see all the players go for proxy gates in Proleague and the U&D matches.
There's proxy gates all the time in PL, lol.
When was the last time there was a proxy gate in a PvP?
Why just PvP? There's proxy gates in every matchup, lol. HerO vs Flash, Jaedong vs I forgot who, Stork vs Zest, etcetc.
Btw WCS Finals had sOs proxy gating HerO
So basically, a few times a month? But since Bo1 is so random, why doesn't the inferior player just go for a proxy gate every single game so that they have a completely equal chance of winning?
Because it gets predictable? But doing it twice in a row immediately is a legitimate mindgame. Just like Seed doing his proxy warp prism all in twice in a row to mess with MC's head. That would never work if he did it every game. But hey, it would've gotten him first place in a Bo1 group already.
so why was it always the same ~10-12 players with 4-6 new ones? if it's so easy 2 just cheese out of a grp.
BW =|= SC2. More randomness in SC2. For the millionth time.
so you are saying SC2 is trash and rewards bad players?
Please look up the difference between "bad", and "worse". The notion of "relativity" will help with this.
Well, unless you actually think that anyone who's not INnoVation/Flash/Soulkey is bad, but then... I don't even know what to add...
So is this crap replacing the standard GSL tournament? Bo1's for round of 32 makes the entire tournament lose all legitimacy. I really hope this OSL tournament doesn't have an impact on GSL at least and that we get the round of 32 that qualified last time. Why couldn't Blizzard just let OSL die....
On June 13 2013 17:33 Krogan wrote: So is this crap replacing the standard GSL tournament? Bo1's for round of 32 makes the entire tournament lose all legitimacy. I really hope this OSL tournament doesn't have an impact on GSL at least and that we get the round of 32 that qualified last time. Why couldn't Blizzard just let OSL die....
You know, OSL has run, like.... one of the most prestigious leagues in BW ? And is on TV ?
On June 13 2013 16:45 DarkLordOlli wrote: I'm just gonna state this every time Bo1 format comes up. I could take first place in a Bo1 group by proxy gating 2 times in a row and hoping my opponents build order lose to it. Mindgames man. In a Bo3+ the possibility of that working is infinitely smaller.
Yeah, which is why we see all the players go for proxy gates in Proleague and the U&D matches.
There's proxy gates all the time in PL, lol.
When was the last time there was a proxy gate in a PvP?
Why just PvP? There's proxy gates in every matchup, lol. HerO vs Flash, Jaedong vs I forgot who, Stork vs Zest, etcetc.
Btw WCS Finals had sOs proxy gating HerO
So basically, a few times a month? But since Bo1 is so random, why doesn't the inferior player just go for a proxy gate every single game so that they have a completely equal chance of winning?
Because it gets predictable? But doing it twice in a row immediately is a legitimate mindgame. Just like Seed doing his proxy warp prism all in twice in a row to mess with MC's head. That would never work if he did it every game. But hey, it would've gotten him first place in a Bo1 group already.
so why was it always the same ~10-12 players with 4-6 new ones? if it's so easy 2 just cheese out of a grp.
BW =|= SC2. More randomness in SC2. For the millionth time.
Also who said it's easy? I'm saying it's far more about luck than a Bo3.
Not sure this is true anymore. Innovation has a higher win rate in Hots than flash did in BW and nearly all "top players" have >60% win rates which is pretty comparable to their BW counterparts. BW: Flash 72%, Bisu 66%, Fantasy 62%, Jangbi 55%, Stork 60%, Jaedong 67%. HotS: Innovation 75%, Flash 68%, MVP 67%, Soulket 65%, SoS 60%, Rain 63%, Life 67%, Jangbi 61%,
So top players have higher win rates pretty much across the board in Hots
On June 13 2013 16:45 DarkLordOlli wrote: I'm just gonna state this every time Bo1 format comes up. I could take first place in a Bo1 group by proxy gating 2 times in a row and hoping my opponents build order lose to it. Mindgames man. In a Bo3+ the possibility of that working is infinitely smaller.
Yeah, which is why we see all the players go for proxy gates in Proleague and the U&D matches.
There's proxy gates all the time in PL, lol.
When was the last time there was a proxy gate in a PvP?
Why just PvP? There's proxy gates in every matchup, lol. HerO vs Flash, Jaedong vs I forgot who, Stork vs Zest, etcetc.
Btw WCS Finals had sOs proxy gating HerO
So basically, a few times a month? But since Bo1 is so random, why doesn't the inferior player just go for a proxy gate every single game so that they have a completely equal chance of winning?
Because it gets predictable? But doing it twice in a row immediately is a legitimate mindgame. Just like Seed doing his proxy warp prism all in twice in a row to mess with MC's head. That would never work if he did it every game. But hey, it would've gotten him first place in a Bo1 group already.
so why was it always the same ~10-12 players with 4-6 new ones? if it's so easy 2 just cheese out of a grp.
BW =|= SC2. More randomness in SC2. For the millionth time.
Also who said it's easy? I'm saying it's far more about luck than a Bo3.
Not sure this is true anymore. Innovation has a higher win rate in Hots than flash did in BW and nearly all "top players" have >60% win rates which is pretty comparable to their BW counterparts. BW: Flash 72%, Bisu 66%, Fantasy 62%, Jangbi 55%, Stork 60%, Jaedong 67%. HotS: Innovation 75%, Flash 68%, MVP 67%, Soulket 65%, SoS 60%, Hyun 63%, Rain 63%, Life 67%, Jangbi 61%,
So top players have higher win rates pretty much across the board in Hots
i think the game isn't quite 'figured' out even yet to say much. mvp and bomber also had pretty epic winrates back in early sc2 days, 75%+, and other progamers also had 65-70% as well
On June 13 2013 17:33 Krogan wrote: So is this crap replacing the standard GSL tournament? Bo1's for round of 32 makes the entire tournament lose all legitimacy. I really hope this OSL tournament doesn't have an impact on GSL at least and that we get the round of 32 that qualified last time. Why couldn't Blizzard just let OSL die....
You know, OSL has run, like.... one of the most prestigious leagues in BW ? And is on TV ?
Doesn't mean what they are doing is right does it? Yes they have done this way more than GSL has ever had but that is not the point. This isn't an OSL this isn't a GSL, this is a WCS tournament. You would think blizzard would have made it set rules for everyone to follow. Not one tournament saying, BO1 RO32 and every other doing BO3 RO32.
Yeah, but the point is that the game isn't as random as people tend to believe. The top players are likely going to lose less often in a HotS bo1 than in a BW bo1
Less likely doesn't make a difference does it? Im pretty sure if Inno/Flash/Soulkey get cheesed out of their groups due to 2 all ins or 2 busts that there will be alot of unhappy people in SC2 community. Plus the people who actually genuinely win a BO1 against a top player will still have a question mark against them due to not taking them down in a BO3. Who knows YuGiOh might destroy his group, but it being BO1 it wont be as a good achivement as doing it in BO3s
On June 13 2013 17:33 Krogan wrote: So is this crap replacing the standard GSL tournament? Bo1's for round of 32 makes the entire tournament lose all legitimacy. I really hope this OSL tournament doesn't have an impact on GSL at least and that we get the round of 32 that qualified last time. Why couldn't Blizzard just let OSL die....
You know, OSL has run, like.... one of the most prestigious leagues in BW ? And is on TV ?
Doesn't mean what they are doing is right does it? Yes they have done this way more than GSL has ever had but that is not the point. This isn't an OSL this isn't a GSL, this is a WCS tournament. You would think blizzard would have made it set rules for everyone to follow. Not one tournament saying, BO1 RO32 and every other doing BO3 RO32.
No. this is THE OSL, which, beside being THE OSL, also serves as a ranking for some high-stake weekend Blizzard tourney (like Blizzcon or BWI back then). Take it that way
On June 13 2013 17:33 Krogan wrote: So is this crap replacing the standard GSL tournament? Bo1's for round of 32 makes the entire tournament lose all legitimacy. I really hope this OSL tournament doesn't have an impact on GSL at least and that we get the round of 32 that qualified last time. Why couldn't Blizzard just let OSL die....
You know, OSL has run, like.... one of the most prestigious leagues in BW ? And is on TV ?
Doesn't mean what they are doing is right does it? Yes they have done this way more than GSL has ever had but that is not the point. This isn't an OSL this isn't a GSL, this is a WCS tournament. You would think blizzard would have made it set rules for everyone to follow. Not one tournament saying, BO1 RO32 and every other doing BO3 RO32.
Where did I say that what they're doing is right ?
The guy was suggesting that OSL should be left to die, but that is surely wrong.
On June 13 2013 17:43 HeroWeDeserve wrote: Yeah, but the point is that the game isn't as random as people tend to believe. The top players are likely going to lose less often in a HotS bo1 than in a BW bo1
Group A is definately the group of death! Ragnarok is sooo good, but sad to see him end up in the group with two of the best players in Korea... He could still upset that group for sure
Yeah, but the point is that the game isn't as random as people tend to believe. The top players are likely going to lose less often in a HotS bo1 than in a BW bo1
I wouldn't agree with the second part since I'd say it's about the same, but compared to WoL the better player will pretty much always win in HoTS. There's not even any doubting it. If someone gets cheesed out for playing greedy, well I'm sorry they're not the best player on the day.
People are so scared of change with HoTS because WoL was such a bad game in terms of balance/coin flippyness that I don't think people know how to react to anything different anymore. Formats, maps, players, if anything changes then all of a sudden it's bad or doesn't work, without anyone ever bothering to try. Bo1 is perfect for Starcraft and it's perfect for HoTS. If you can't win a Bo1 and you lose to cheese, you better get practicing.
On June 13 2013 17:46 Pandemona wrote: Less likely doesn't make a difference does it? Im pretty sure if Inno/Flash/Soulkey get cheesed out of their groups due to 2 all ins or 2 busts that there will be alot of unhappy people in SC2 community. Plus the people who actually genuinely win a BO1 against a top player will still have a question mark against them due to not taking them down in a BO3. Who knows YuGiOh might destroy his group, but it being BO1 it wont be as a good achivement as doing it in BO3s
I don't think anyone will deny that the OSL format produced extraordinary tournaments in BW. The question here is will the format translate just as well to SC2.
If the argument is that it won't because SC2 is more random, then its extremely relevant how much variance there is in each of the two games. The stats so far suggest that there is probably less variance in HotS than BW.
If your argument is that the OSL has had it all wrong from the beginning and should have been doing bo3's for the last 10 years then that's an entirely different discussion
On June 13 2013 16:45 DarkLordOlli wrote: I'm just gonna state this every time Bo1 format comes up. I could take first place in a Bo1 group by proxy gating 2 times in a row and hoping my opponents build order lose to it. Mindgames man. In a Bo3+ the possibility of that working is infinitely smaller.
Yeah, which is why we see all the players go for proxy gates in Proleague and the U&D matches.
There's proxy gates all the time in PL, lol.
When was the last time there was a proxy gate in a PvP?
Why just PvP? There's proxy gates in every matchup, lol. HerO vs Flash, Jaedong vs I forgot who, Stork vs Zest, etcetc.
Btw WCS Finals had sOs proxy gating HerO
So basically, a few times a month? But since Bo1 is so random, why doesn't the inferior player just go for a proxy gate every single game so that they have a completely equal chance of winning?
Because it gets predictable? But doing it twice in a row immediately is a legitimate mindgame. Just like Seed doing his proxy warp prism all in twice in a row to mess with MC's head. That would never work if he did it every game. But hey, it would've gotten him first place in a Bo1 group already.
so why was it always the same ~10-12 players with 4-6 new ones? if it's so easy 2 just cheese out of a grp.
BW =|= SC2. More randomness in SC2. For the millionth time.
Also who said it's easy? I'm saying it's far more about luck than a Bo3.
Not sure this is true anymore. Innovation has a higher win rate in Hots than flash did in BW and nearly all "top players" have >60% win rates which is pretty comparable to their BW counterparts. BW: Flash 72%, Bisu 66%, Fantasy 62%, Jangbi 55%, Stork 60%, Jaedong 67%. HotS: Innovation 75%, Flash 68%, MVP 67%, Soulket 65%, SoS 60%, Rain 63%, Life 67%, Jangbi 61%,
So top players have higher win rates pretty much across the board in Hots
That's some interesting stats, thanks for bringing that up
I'm sad about BO1, but I understand that they want to be faithful to their past.
On a side note, is this the first OSL/GSL where Kespa players are more than esf players (17 to 15) ? (Not counting first OSL which had seeding and stuff)
On June 13 2013 17:33 Krogan wrote: So is this crap replacing the standard GSL tournament? Bo1's for round of 32 makes the entire tournament lose all legitimacy. I really hope this OSL tournament doesn't have an impact on GSL at least and that we get the round of 32 that qualified last time. Why couldn't Blizzard just let OSL die....
You know, OSL has run, like.... one of the most prestigious leagues in BW ? And is on TV ?
Doesn't mean what they are doing is right does it? Yes they have done this way more than GSL has ever had but that is not the point. This isn't an OSL this isn't a GSL, this is a WCS tournament. You would think blizzard would have made it set rules for everyone to follow. Not one tournament saying, BO1 RO32 and every other doing BO3 RO32.
No. this is THE OSL, which, beside being THE OSL, also serves as a ranking for some high-stake weekend Blizzard tourney (like Blizzcon or BWI back then). Take it that way
Well if thats the case, and blizzard just said ok OSL you do one tourney, GSL you do 2. Make your own rules, keep the same tournament you did before etcetc. Then its stupid blizzards fault for not saying. You need to follow this format for rules and bo's and not let them change it.
On June 13 2013 17:46 Pandemona wrote: Less likely doesn't make a difference does it? Im pretty sure if Inno/Flash/Soulkey get cheesed out of their groups due to 2 all ins or 2 busts that there will be alot of unhappy people in SC2 community. Plus the people who actually genuinely win a BO1 against a top player will still have a question mark against them due to not taking them down in a BO3. Who knows YuGiOh might destroy his group, but it being BO1 it wont be as a good achivement as doing it in BO3s
I don't think anyone will deny that the OSL format produced extraordinary tournaments in BW. The question here is will the format translate just as well to SC2.
If the argument is that it won't because SC2 is more random, then its extremely relevant how much variance there is in each of the two games. The stats so far suggest that there is probably less variance in HotS than BW.
If your argument is that the OSL has had it all wrong from the beginning and should have been doing bo3's for the last 10 years then that's an entirely different discussion
Noooo i would never say that! Like you said, back in BW BO1s where fine, the game wasn't as stupidly easy for a Masters player to pull off a 11/11 or a bane bust/roach all in as it is in SC2.
On June 13 2013 17:33 Krogan wrote: So is this crap replacing the standard GSL tournament? Bo1's for round of 32 makes the entire tournament lose all legitimacy. I really hope this OSL tournament doesn't have an impact on GSL at least and that we get the round of 32 that qualified last time. Why couldn't Blizzard just let OSL die....
You know, OSL has run, like.... one of the most prestigious leagues in BW ? And is on TV ?
Doesn't mean what they are doing is right does it? Yes they have done this way more than GSL has ever had but that is not the point. This isn't an OSL this isn't a GSL, this is a WCS tournament. You would think blizzard would have made it set rules for everyone to follow. Not one tournament saying, BO1 RO32 and every other doing BO3 RO32.
Where did I say that what they're doing is right ?
The guy was suggesting that OSL should be left to die, but that is surely wrong.
On June 13 2013 17:43 HeroWeDeserve wrote: Yeah, but the point is that the game isn't as random as people tend to believe. The top players are likely going to lose less often in a HotS bo1 than in a BW bo1
Uh oh, I wouldn't say that at all...
Yeah it defiantly doesn't deserve to be left to die of course not. But like im saying Blizzard should of made it set rules for every region lol.
Maybe it's just me, but I've always hated the GSL format. I don't like there being two group stages and I especially don't like the Ro32 being Bo3. The games go on for far too long and although it's likely the better player will win anyway in a Bo3, the better player will usually win the first game anyway, making the entire format obselete.
Going back to what I've already said. If you die to a baneling bust, then well you played too greedy and you deserved the loss. Play more conservatively and you won't die to cheese.
Yeah, which is why we see all the players go for proxy gates in Proleague and the U&D matches.
There's proxy gates all the time in PL, lol.
When was the last time there was a proxy gate in a PvP?
Why just PvP? There's proxy gates in every matchup, lol. HerO vs Flash, Jaedong vs I forgot who, Stork vs Zest, etcetc.
Btw WCS Finals had sOs proxy gating HerO
So basically, a few times a month? But since Bo1 is so random, why doesn't the inferior player just go for a proxy gate every single game so that they have a completely equal chance of winning?
Because it gets predictable? But doing it twice in a row immediately is a legitimate mindgame. Just like Seed doing his proxy warp prism all in twice in a row to mess with MC's head. That would never work if he did it every game. But hey, it would've gotten him first place in a Bo1 group already.
so why was it always the same ~10-12 players with 4-6 new ones? if it's so easy 2 just cheese out of a grp.
BW =|= SC2. More randomness in SC2. For the millionth time.
Also who said it's easy? I'm saying it's far more about luck than a Bo3.
Not sure this is true anymore. Innovation has a higher win rate in Hots than flash did in BW and nearly all "top players" have >60% win rates which is pretty comparable to their BW counterparts. BW: Flash 72%, Bisu 66%, Fantasy 62%, Jangbi 55%, Stork 60%, Jaedong 67%. HotS: Innovation 75%, Flash 68%, MVP 67%, Soulket 65%, SoS 60%, Rain 63%, Life 67%, Jangbi 61%,
So top players have higher win rates pretty much across the board in Hots
That's some interesting stats, thanks for bringing that up
Innovation is doing really well right now, whereas career stats also include some lesser periods. 72% over a 5 year time span is more impressive than 75% over a two month time span.
On June 13 2013 17:57 Qikz wrote: Maybe it's just me, but I've always hated the GSL format. I don't like there being two group stages and I especially don't like the Ro32 being Bo3. The games go on for far too long and although it's likely the better player will win anyway in a Bo3, the better player will usually win the first game anyway, making the entire format obselete.
Going back to what I've already said. If you die to a baneling bust, then well you played too greedy and you deserved the loss. Play more conservatively and you won't die to cheese.
The best TvZ players have been losing to all ins since forever because they have to play greedy and its such a thin line to walk. Just look at GSL finals. Its not as simple as saying "just play safe".
On June 13 2013 17:57 Qikz wrote: Maybe it's just me, but I've always hated the GSL format. I don't like there being two group stages and I especially don't like the Ro32 being Bo3. The games go on for far too long and although it's likely the better player will win anyway in a Bo3, the better player will usually win the first game anyway, making the entire format obselete.
Going back to what I've already said. If you die to a baneling bust, then well you played too greedy and you deserved the loss. Play more conservatively and you won't die to cheese.
The best TvZ players have been losing to all ins since forever because they have to play greedy and its such a thin line to walk. Just look at GSL finals. Its not as simple as saying "just play safe".
what difference would a bo3 make if people were to just gamble with their builds then?...
On June 13 2013 17:57 Qikz wrote: Maybe it's just me, but I've always hated the GSL format. I don't like there being two group stages and I especially don't like the Ro32 being Bo3. The games go on for far too long and although it's likely the better player will win anyway in a Bo3, the better player will usually win the first game anyway, making the entire format obselete.
Going back to what I've already said. If you die to a baneling bust, then well you played too greedy and you deserved the loss. Play more conservatively and you won't die to cheese.
The best TvZ players have been losing to all ins since forever because they have to play greedy and its such a thin line to walk. Just look at GSL finals. Its not as simple as saying "just play safe".
They don't have to play greedy, I know the metagame is to go three CC, but if you open with a tank or two tanks, you hold off pretty much every all in and I know that from opening Reaper - 3CC - into mech every single TvZ. The zergs who go for roach bane all ins won't be able to be pushed and they won't have a load of drones, so surely it's better to just get those tanks since you're going to be in the same situation you would have been, just with more defense.
It's better to play safe and not use coinflippy builds if you want to win. If you lose to an all in which you could have defended then you're not the best player.
As much as I respect the OSL, it's weird how format can change within a global tournament. Can't say I like it. Format and mappool should be the same in the 3 regions, for the sake of coherence and clarity.
On June 13 2013 17:57 Qikz wrote: Maybe it's just me, but I've always hated the GSL format. I don't like there being two group stages and I especially don't like the Ro32 being Bo3. The games go on for far too long and although it's likely the better player will win anyway in a Bo3, the better player will usually win the first game anyway, making the entire format obselete.
Going back to what I've already said. If you die to a baneling bust, then well you played too greedy and you deserved the loss. Play more conservatively and you won't die to cheese.
The best TvZ players have been losing to all ins since forever because they have to play greedy and its such a thin line to walk. Just look at GSL finals. Its not as simple as saying "just play safe".
what difference would a bo3 make if people were to just gamble with their builds then?...
Why is it so hard to understand? The best players arent playing againt total noobs. And what to you mean with gamble? If you know your opponent is a very strong macro player and good at late game then it would be more of a gamble to play a macro game. Being one of the best players in sc2 doesnt mean you hold every all in, not even close. Im just sying its silly to think you can "just play safe" in sc2 GSL/OSL and win anyway because you are that much better.
On June 13 2013 17:57 Qikz wrote: Maybe it's just me, but I've always hated the GSL format. I don't like there being two group stages and I especially don't like the Ro32 being Bo3. The games go on for far too long and although it's likely the better player will win anyway in a Bo3, the better player will usually win the first game anyway, making the entire format obselete.
Going back to what I've already said. If you die to a baneling bust, then well you played too greedy and you deserved the loss. Play more conservatively and you won't die to cheese.
The best TvZ players have been losing to all ins since forever because they have to play greedy and its such a thin line to walk. Just look at GSL finals. Its not as simple as saying "just play safe".
They don't have to play greedy, I know the metagame is to go three CC, but if you open with a tank or two tanks, you hold off pretty much every all in and I know that from opening Reaper - 3CC - into mech every single TvZ. The zergs who go for roach bane all ins won't be able to be pushed and they won't have a load of drones, so surely it's better to just get those tanks since you're going to be in the same situation you would have been, just with more defense.
It's better to play safe and not use coinflippy builds if you want to win. If you lose to an all in which you could have defended then you're not the best player.
dude come on.. by the time you push out the zerg is on 5 bases and you are fucked. As i said earlier, these guys arent scrubs.
Regarding the bo1. When people get better at playing the game it gets less luck based. Just watch Flash in PL. He is currently 15-2... And its probably going to become more stable.
Up to you whether you think that ~10% is significant enough to say that Bo1 is unequivocally worse than Bo3, taking into consideration all factors such as time and scheduling.
On June 13 2013 18:15 Elroi wrote: Regarding the bo1. When people get better at playing the game it gets less luck based. Just watch Flash in PL. He is currently 15-2... And its probably going to become more stable.
On June 13 2013 17:57 Qikz wrote: Maybe it's just me, but I've always hated the GSL format. I don't like there being two group stages and I especially don't like the Ro32 being Bo3. The games go on for far too long and although it's likely the better player will win anyway in a Bo3, the better player will usually win the first game anyway, making the entire format obselete.
Going back to what I've already said. If you die to a baneling bust, then well you played too greedy and you deserved the loss. Play more conservatively and you won't die to cheese.
The best TvZ players have been losing to all ins since forever because they have to play greedy and its such a thin line to walk. Just look at GSL finals. Its not as simple as saying "just play safe".
They don't have to play greedy, I know the metagame is to go three CC, but if you open with a tank or two tanks, you hold off pretty much every all in and I know that from opening Reaper - 3CC - into mech every single TvZ. The zergs who go for roach bane all ins won't be able to be pushed and they won't have a load of drones, so surely it's better to just get those tanks since you're going to be in the same situation you would have been, just with more defense.
It's better to play safe and not use coinflippy builds if you want to win. If you lose to an all in which you could have defended then you're not the best player.
dude come on.. by the time you push out the zerg is on 5 bases and you are fucked. As i said earlier, these guys arent scrubs.
If you think opening with one tank means the zerg magically can take 5 bases then quite clearly you're being hyperbolic to try and "put down" the format that would work perfectly fine in SC2.
I've seen Fantasy, Flash and Innovation all at different times open with a few tanks and still do their parade pushes, it's just they don't do it every game and they still lose to roach bane.
On June 13 2013 18:15 Elroi wrote: Regarding the bo1. When people get better at playing the game it gets less luck based. Just watch Flash in PL. He is currently 15-2... And its probably going to become more stable.
But then Soulkey is 13-6 [] Innovation 17-5 yet he hardly loses in BO3s as you are probably aware. sOs arguably the best protoss in the world right now is 10-7 in SPL BO1s
So you lose 2 maps and you are on the verge or falling to code B. Also one group per day is like 5 sets and you count in a Protoss hevy group and you are done in about half an hour.
On June 13 2013 18:30 mechengineer123 wrote: Well bo1 is obviously a joke, but they already gave their statements about it and they know people hate it, so it's time to stop whining about it.
How did these players qualify? Is it just the GSL list, or did they also seed some high ranked PL players? Tnx
Hard to say who's gonna win with bo1, so random, so let's just enjoy the show :D
It's the continuation of WCS Korea S1 (last "GSL"), so everybody who obtained Premiere status there gets to play. Code A will be produced in parallel this season by GOM btw. So by all means it should be a OSL branded GSL, which is the whole idea behind WCS, no reason to mess with the format, you ruin all sense of continuity just for pride.
On June 13 2013 18:30 mechengineer123 wrote: How did these players qualify? Is it just the GSL list, or did they also seed some high ranked PL players?
This is WCS KR Season 2 more than it is OSL. Blizzard is just allowing them to still call it GSL and OSL. Think of this as OGN running GSL Code S for a season.
Which is why I'm so pissed about the format change. If I knew it was going to be Bo1, I wouldn't have bothered buying a ticket from GOM for it.
I don't get it, if they make group stage bo1 in dual tournament because they don't have enough time to make it bo3, then why they make group stage 2 round robin which obviously takes longer than dual (1 extra match, possible tie).
Well i guess that if i would look at stats the player that wins first game probably wins the bo 3, 70% of the time but still don't like it :/
I for one like the Bo1 format, I think more volatility is just good for SC2 where it is now... Your Flashes, Soulkeys, Innovations etc will still get through and all the players will have to prepare more. And all the matches will be more exciting, with more (or even ALL) on the line. Looking forward to it
Also, this hate for Bo1 is just bandwagon and you are taking some things from the completely different game (start of WoL). HotS is not so random, better player will win in 80% of times. Just look at all the Bo1 qualifiers, better player almost always won (yes, there were surprises, but I think some surprises are a good thing...)
On June 13 2013 17:57 Qikz wrote: Maybe it's just me, but I've always hated the GSL format. I don't like there being two group stages and I especially don't like the Ro32 being Bo3. The games go on for far too long and although it's likely the better player will win anyway in a Bo3, the better player will usually win the first game anyway, making the entire format obselete.
Going back to what I've already said. If you die to a baneling bust, then well you played too greedy and you deserved the loss. Play more conservatively and you won't die to cheese.
The best TvZ players have been losing to all ins since forever because they have to play greedy and its such a thin line to walk. Just look at GSL finals. Its not as simple as saying "just play safe".
They don't have to play greedy, I know the metagame is to go three CC, but if you open with a tank or two tanks, you hold off pretty much every all in and I know that from opening Reaper - 3CC - into mech every single TvZ. The zergs who go for roach bane all ins won't be able to be pushed and they won't have a load of drones, so surely it's better to just get those tanks since you're going to be in the same situation you would have been, just with more defense.
It's better to play safe and not use coinflippy builds if you want to win. If you lose to an all in which you could have defended then you're not the best player.
dude come on.. by the time you push out the zerg is on 5 bases and you are fucked. As i said earlier, these guys arent scrubs.
If you think opening with one tank means the zerg magically can take 5 bases then quite clearly you're being hyperbolic to try and "put down" the format that would work perfectly fine in SC2.
I've seen Fantasy, Flash and Innovation all at different times open with a few tanks and still do their parade pushes, it's just they don't do it every game and they still lose to roach bane.
yeah, ur not adding the extra build time of tanks to the push timing, but rather cutting down the hellions u build from the reactor, so instead of like 6 or so, maybe u only make 2 for minimal map presence than starting tanks to be safer.
Cause if you're getting roach baned map presence isnt the biggest thing better focus on living lol. I guess you do fall a bit behind if you make tanks after 2 hellions and they dont allin you, but with enough good drops, solid play a bit of luck you should pull back to at least even(especially if you're the better player). Its not a unwinable position if you get like 3 tanks.
Should be interesting games, i think its also a good place to copy builds, these are probably going to be pretty ladder safe.
Why do so many people think group E is the group of death? Plenty of others seem scarier to me ^^ A, C, F, G all look more exciting to me ^^ Ok E has Jangbi and Life, ans Losira hasn't been doing bad lately. But Fantasy isn't really on the same level is he?
Bo1 is great. The better player will win most of the time, but it will require much more preparation and even more mental fortitude. This format is where the strongest player shines because he won't crack under the pressure. Besides, it's only Bo1 for the first round anyway. Ro16 will be best of 3 won't it? I don't see why everyone is hating. It's not like the whole tournament is Bo1.
I've always liked how OSL had their entire map order decided beforehand. That way the players can practice maps instead of just matchups in general.
On June 13 2013 18:52 Gihi wrote: Why do so many people think group E is the group of death? Plenty of others seem scarier to me ^^ A, C, F, G all look more exciting to me ^^ Ok E has Jangbi and Life, ans Losira hasn't been doing bad lately. But Fantasy isn't really on the same level is he?
Because JangBi and FanTaSy are so legendary even though they are not on the same level as Life and KangHo
On June 13 2013 18:52 Gihi wrote: Why do so many people think group E is the group of death? Plenty of others seem scarier to me ^^ A, C, F, G all look more exciting to me ^^ Ok E has Jangbi and Life, ans Losira hasn't been doing bad lately. But Fantasy isn't really on the same level is he?
Because JangBi and FanTaSy are so legendary even though they are not on the same level as Life and KangHo
Kangho is wildly, wildly inconsistant. I'd say both Fantasy and Jangbi are atleast on his level.
It's much like patriotism when you think "a particular country is the best in the world because you were born in it", get mad folks, meanwhile OGN doesn't give a flying fuck - the guys have some respect for their traditions. In fact no random scrubs have been crowned in the OSL.
Where's the guy who said that proxy gates didn't happen a lot? IT JUST HAPPENED AGAIN
On June 13 2013 19:48 Oddball28 wrote: Group G is gonna feature some absolutely brutal PvP's holy mother of god. Parting vs Squirtle? I won't even start to think of the outcome..
It'll be a silly BO win with one player going balls to the wall because Bo1s are dumb.
So why exactly is this WCS? Way too many fundamental exceptions and differences in format here. I seriously wonder what Blizzard Korea actually achieved when trying to aim for a unified WCS system. Big fail for me.
Will create great excitement, and tremendous hype. I can already see the LR threads tumbling down into "BO1 IS SHHEEEIIIITT" vs "OHMYGODHEFUCKINGDIDIT".
I think there will be one or two surpises but the game isnt that random. Better players will move on just not with boring macro2-0s. There will be a lot of tense moments hopefully and many creative ideas. Outsmarting will be more important than ever. And since these guys prepare, I don't think there'll be that many all-ins or cheeses. That's just too plausible for the opponent too. Who'd wanna fall out of the OSL with a failed cannon rush? (And if someone does it he's just that much braver for doing so -- which will do good for hype, and excitement, once gagain.)
On June 13 2013 18:44 Kylo55 wrote: I don't get it, if they make group stage bo1 in dual tournament because they don't have enough time to make it bo3, then why they make group stage 2 round robin which obviously takes longer than dual (1 extra match, possible tie).
Well i guess that if i would look at stats the player that wins first game probably wins the bo 3, 70% of the time but still don't like it :/
If's it like BW, round robin stage will be played in severals days
I do not understand why a) has so many votes unless (so maybe I do) it's just FlaSh fans plus a few Soulkey fans. Do all people realise that a group of death is meant to be the hardest to call?
i dislike all 3 rounds ro32 ro16 i rly dislike every format and NO vetos NO looserpick ? but rnd ? so its luck if you advance ? osl make wcs korea a joke like the finals was i rly miss GOM
On June 13 2013 20:07 Fuchsteufelswild wrote: I do not understand why a) has so many votes unless (so maybe I do) it's just FlaSh fans plus a few Soulkey fans. Do all people realise that a group of death is meant to be the hardest to call?
I do think people understand group of death rather as "raw amount of skill in that group".
There are group that are incredibly hard to call because the players are average, but average on the same level, and yet it's not a group of death lol.
gwanghalli is fucking BEAUTIFUL! hard to think that it will be fine for competition but i really hope so, that is seriously awsome map design. anaconda is more standard sc2-boring. ive been waiting forever for some really innovative and weird maps, go BW mapmakers!
So i will be in Korea in early/mid July and I would love to go see this live with my wife for a day or two.
I am trying to figure out where games will be played so I google translated the page and I think it says that games on Tuesdays and Thursdays will be held at Yongsan e-Sports Stadium for the whole tournament.
Does that mean that all games will be played on these two days? And I would be immensely grateful to anyone able to confirm the that they will all be in Yongsan?
On June 13 2013 19:48 Oddball28 wrote: Group G is gonna feature some absolutely brutal PvP's holy mother of god. Parting vs Squirtle? I won't even start to think of the outcome..
It'll be a silly BO win with one player going balls to the wall because Bo1s are dumb.
On June 13 2013 20:04 neoghaleon55 wrote: aaaaaaaand I am reminded why I hated OSL last year.
Khaldor was right: politics is ruining SC2 in Korea
you probably liked it up til the finals though ;p
no I hated it all the way through I was pretty vocal about their map selection and best of 1 crap. I did not purchase a pass until the finals, and only because a certain ditzy korean was playing.
This is absurd. WCS heavily, heavily favors players who make it to the top 5 in their region by giving them a double scoop of WCS points (big scoops at that).
A lot of players are going to be completely screwed out of Blizzcon due to extremely risky Bo1 play. If Flash doesn't make it to top 5 this season, does he even have a chance to make top 16 points by the end of season 3?
LOL. What a successfull Poll. 90%. Do you want more dare OGN organizers? Do you still think the community "understand" your "logictis issues"? I hope you finally you any right to organize any SC2 event. You dont even deserve the secondary stream for the GSL. Poor casters, so kind and good guys, working for such a bad bosses. Can you just imagine the Flash vs Innovation from the Group of Death playing BO1???First two games were all BO losses. Nice try.Keep doing shit and maybe someday will join the MLG and organize some WoT or Super Mario tournaments..
I thought the past years have taught us that SC2 is insignificant in Korea and that can be attributed to Blizzard siding with GOM over KeSPA/MBC/OGN. How will SC2 grow in Korea without KeSPA/OGN?
Don't blame osl fuer bo1, blame blizzard. If they would do things right the format + map pool would be set for every wcs qualifier/challenger/premier tournament.
So if anyone loses 2 games they go straight to challenger... I thought we'd moved on from that format...
Well here's to hoping that the good players don't do anything stupid (like Flash going for a 14cc every game...)
I suppose the positive is that we could see more of a mix up. But I really don't agree with Bo1s, especially in a competition where everyone is so highly skilled. Bo1s may have a place in the open bracket of a smaller foreign tournament, but they don't belong in WCS Korea premier league IMO.
Also feel like I'm being robbed of some games here...
On June 13 2013 21:39 BLinD-RawR wrote: some really harsh hate, then again who would stop to consider why OGN is doing it this way.
we don't care what is their reason. if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv... making stupid thing like bo1 is not an acceptable solution to their problem, whatever it is.
there is no real group of death imo. none of the groups are stacked with 3-4 mega players who are impossible to really call who will get out of it.
groups a and e are as close as u can get... but still mildly frustrated at the probability that most voters would have seen lifes name and mindlessly clicked it lol
i voted for group A because flash and soulkey are bigger names atm than anybody in group e (yes, including life lol)
so psyched to see jangbi v fantasy tho. BW OSL finals rematch incoming :D :D :D
I don't mind bo1s for Ro32. Too many games if bo3.
Edit: Given how many forgettable GSL finals/champions there have been, I don't understand why so many people think the format will guarantee good matchups. The format doesn't make the tournament, nor does it significantly impact the best players. I'll eat my words if Shine wins this OSL in large part due to winning a bo1 in the Ro32 /facetious.
On June 13 2013 21:48 neoghaleon55 wrote: does anyone else think Korean Politics blindsided Blizzard? OGN basically going against the rules just so it can be different from Gom.
I honestly had no thought into this until Khaldor made his video today discussing all the shenanigans gom and ogn pull behind the scenes.
It was in the original WCS announcement that this ro32 would be bo1.
The tournament structure has been modeled off of GSL's Code S, Code A, and Code B system and is called Premier, Challenger, and Qualifier. This structure will run for all partners, including MLG and ESL. The Challenger events will run slightly differently in North America and Europe due to logistics in travel. Players will be able to move up and down within their own region as players do in GSL. Only the OSL will have differences, where there will be an additional Round of 32 added on played in a best-of-one format.
There will also be a lot more games played during the ro16 than the normal GSL format with round robin bo3 groups and then round robin tiebreakers for those groups
On June 13 2013 21:39 BLinD-RawR wrote: some really harsh hate, then again who would stop to consider why OGN is doing it this way.
we don't care what is their reason. if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv... making stupid thing like bo1 is not an acceptable solution to their problem, whatever it is.
uhh yeah say what you may but OGN is bigger than GOM and pointlessly whining isn't helping, just hope your favorite players make it through to the Ro16.
On June 13 2013 21:39 BLinD-RawR wrote: some really harsh hate, then again who would stop to consider why OGN is doing it this way.
we don't care what is their reason. if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv... making stupid thing like bo1 is not an acceptable solution to their problem, whatever it is.
uhh yeah say what you may but OGN is bigger than GOM and pointlessly whining isn't helping, just hope your favorite players make it through to the Ro16.
ok so plz tell me, if they are bigger then gom, why cant they make normal RO32?
On June 13 2013 21:39 BLinD-RawR wrote: some really harsh hate, then again who would stop to consider why OGN is doing it this way.
we don't care what is their reason. if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv... making stupid thing like bo1 is not an acceptable solution to their problem, whatever it is.
uhh yeah say what you may but OGN is bigger than GOM and pointlessly whining isn't helping, just hope your favorite players make it through to the Ro16.
ok so plz tell me, if they are bigger then gom, why cant they make normal RO32?
GOM is internet channel that runs less things than OGN, which means OGN has less time available for SC2
On June 13 2013 21:39 BLinD-RawR wrote: some really harsh hate, then again who would stop to consider why OGN is doing it this way.
we don't care what is their reason. if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv... making stupid thing like bo1 is not an acceptable solution to their problem, whatever it is.
uhh yeah say what you may but OGN is bigger than GOM and pointlessly whining isn't helping, just hope your favorite players make it through to the Ro16.
ok so plz tell me, if they are bigger then gom, why cant they make normal RO32?
GOM is internet channel that runs less things than OGN, which means OGN has less time available for SC2
so as i said, "if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv..."
On June 13 2013 16:45 DarkLordOlli wrote: I'm just gonna state this every time Bo1 format comes up. I could take first place in a Bo1 group by proxy gating 2 times in a row and hoping my opponents build order lose to it. Mindgames man. In a Bo3+ the possibility of that working is infinitely smaller.
Like all the others in this thread, you greatly overestimate the power of the most basic cheeses. No they're not insta-wins, they're actually quite risky, and people do it only when they know in advance what kind of build/scout pattern their opponent is more likely to use (proxy gating Jaedong for example was a solid build not long ago :D).
My theory is that all this hate for Bo1 is also a by-product of all of you fine folks' ladder frustrations. You get cheesed on ladder, you're bad so you lose to it (we all do), and you say to yourself "I was probably the better player, good thing that mofo cheesed because in a Bo3 he would have had no chance, he must only go for that cheese anyway!". We don't get to play Bo3 on ladder (most of the time), so for every loss you experience by losing to whatever, you feel like it's partly due to Bo1: if the guy did it again you would be ready this time!
Well guys sorry, proxy gate doesn't actually have a 90% winrate (legend that runs on ladder), or even 50% (IdrA theory of SC2), it's more like 20%, something you use when you know it's acceptable to even have 20% winrate against a far better player than you.
So granted, we will probably see one or two of the super-strong guys fall to a somewhat silly build, but all the others will be ready. And don't forget that it's still double elimination.
On June 13 2013 21:10 Pegas wrote: bo1 promotes cheese... this is disappointing
No it doesn't. It promotes safer play as if you play safe you don't die to cheese.
For the sake of arguing :
If you would play vs Flash in a bo1 with money/points on the line, would you try to cheese him or would you play your macro game?
Also look from a statistical pov how many games bo1 ended up in a cheese if you want to argue on this more.
It's the fucking same in Bo3 man. Of course the lesser player isn't going to attempt to play Flash in a macro game if he wants to win some money in the end. The valid concern is: does it significantly statistically prevent Flash from going up? The answer is: not that much, he's still the favorite by a lot :D
On June 13 2013 21:39 BLinD-RawR wrote: some really harsh hate, then again who would stop to consider why OGN is doing it this way.
we don't care what is their reason. if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv... making stupid thing like bo1 is not an acceptable solution to their problem, whatever it is.
uhh yeah say what you may but OGN is bigger than GOM and pointlessly whining isn't helping, just hope your favorite players make it through to the Ro16.
ok so plz tell me, if they are bigger then gom, why cant they make normal RO32?
GOM is internet channel that runs less things than OGN, which means OGN has less time available for SC2
so as i said, "if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv..."
but they're not running a code S, they're running an OSL
Mistake to give it to OGN to be honest if they can't manage to run BO3s in the RO32. Its a simple matter of consistency in the format. It should be running exactly the same as how GOM just ran the first season; no changes.
On June 13 2013 21:39 BLinD-RawR wrote: some really harsh hate, then again who would stop to consider why OGN is doing it this way.
we don't care what is their reason. if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv... making stupid thing like bo1 is not an acceptable solution to their problem, whatever it is.
uhh yeah say what you may but OGN is bigger than GOM and pointlessly whining isn't helping, just hope your favorite players make it through to the Ro16.
ok so plz tell me, if they are bigger then gom, why cant they make normal RO32?
GOM is internet channel that runs less things than OGN, which means OGN has less time available for SC2
so as i said, "if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv..."
but they're not running a code S, they're running an OSL
On June 13 2013 21:39 BLinD-RawR wrote: some really harsh hate, then again who would stop to consider why OGN is doing it this way.
we don't care what is their reason. if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv... making stupid thing like bo1 is not an acceptable solution to their problem, whatever it is.
uhh yeah say what you may but OGN is bigger than GOM and pointlessly whining isn't helping, just hope your favorite players make it through to the Ro16.
ok so plz tell me, if they are bigger then gom, why cant they make normal RO32?
GOM is internet channel that runs less things than OGN, which means OGN has less time available for SC2
so as i said, "if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv..."
but they're not running a code S, they're running an OSL
then fuck them and fuck OSL, we want code S back.
Ah yes, Code S the home of one-and-dones such as Seed, Sniper and jjakji vs. OSL stomping grounds of the likes of Nada, oov, flash, JD, Jangbang, etc. The format does not make a tournament, the players and the game do.
Blizzard should just boycott OSL and MLG imo. give WCS rights to the good organizations and let the others try to survive by themselves. if they can, great, more good tournaments, if they can't, great, less bad tournaments. i understand there would be an uproar, but sometimes if you make big changes (like WCS), you have to live with some backlash.
On June 13 2013 21:39 BLinD-RawR wrote: some really harsh hate, then again who would stop to consider why OGN is doing it this way.
we don't care what is their reason. if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv... making stupid thing like bo1 is not an acceptable solution to their problem, whatever it is.
uhh yeah say what you may but OGN is bigger than GOM and pointlessly whining isn't helping, just hope your favorite players make it through to the Ro16.
ok so plz tell me, if they are bigger then gom, why cant they make normal RO32?
GOM is internet channel that runs less things than OGN, which means OGN has less time available for SC2
so as i said, "if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv..."
but they're not running a code S, they're running an OSL
then fuck them and fuck OSL, we want code S back.
Ah yes, Code S the home of one-and-dones such as Seed, Sniper and jjakji vs. OSL stomping grounds of the likes of Nada, oov, flash, JD, Jangbang, etc. The format does not make a tournament, the players and the game do.
On June 13 2013 21:39 BLinD-RawR wrote: some really harsh hate, then again who would stop to consider why OGN is doing it this way.
we don't care what is their reason. if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv... making stupid thing like bo1 is not an acceptable solution to their problem, whatever it is.
uhh yeah say what you may but OGN is bigger than GOM and pointlessly whining isn't helping, just hope your favorite players make it through to the Ro16.
ok so plz tell me, if they are bigger then gom, why cant they make normal RO32?
GOM is internet channel that runs less things than OGN, which means OGN has less time available for SC2
so as i said, "if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv..."
but they're not running a code S, they're running an OSL
On June 13 2013 21:39 BLinD-RawR wrote: some really harsh hate, then again who would stop to consider why OGN is doing it this way.
we don't care what is their reason. if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv... making stupid thing like bo1 is not an acceptable solution to their problem, whatever it is.
uhh yeah say what you may but OGN is bigger than GOM and pointlessly whining isn't helping, just hope your favorite players make it through to the Ro16.
ok so plz tell me, if they are bigger then gom, why cant they make normal RO32?
GOM is internet channel that runs less things than OGN, which means OGN has less time available for SC2
so as i said, "if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv..."
but they're not running a code S, they're running an OSL
then fuck them and fuck OSL, we want code S back.
Ah yes, Code S the home of one-and-dones such as Seed, Sniper and jjakji vs. OSL stomping grounds of the likes of Nada, oov, flash, JD, Jangbang, etc. The format does not make a tournament, the players and the game do.
not like OSL has had its weird winners too though
Definitely true, but the era-defining players won most of the time. Would MVP have won fewer GSLs if it was Bo1 Ro32?
Maybe the majority of WoL's run needed Bo3s in Ro32, but let's see how HotS does... basically I think there is needless panic
On June 13 2013 22:17 Schelim wrote: Blizzard should just boycott OSL and MLG imo. give WCS rights to the good organizations and let the others try to survive by themselves. if they can, great, more good tournaments, if they can't, great, less bad tournaments. i understand there would be an uproar, but sometimes if you make big changes (like WCS), you have to live with some backlash.
Gom would be screwed if this happened. Half of Code S would just vanish from the brackets. The better half of Code S.
On June 13 2013 22:28 Penev wrote: Blizzard modeled the WCS after the GSL. Kinda strange that OGN thinks they can just change the format. Blizzard should intervene imo.
The tournament structure has been modeled off of GSL's Code S, Code A, and Code B system and is called Premier, Challenger, and Qualifier. This structure will run for all partners, including MLG and ESL. The Challenger events will run slightly differently in North America and Europe due to logistics in travel. Players will be able to move up and down within their own region as players do in GSL. Only the OSL will have differences, where there will be an additional Round of 32 added on played in a best-of-one format.
On June 13 2013 22:17 Schelim wrote: Blizzard should just boycott OSL and MLG imo. give WCS rights to the good organizations and let the others try to survive by themselves. if they can, great, more good tournaments, if they can't, great, less bad tournaments. i understand there would be an uproar, but sometimes if you make big changes (like WCS), you have to live with some backlash.
Gom would be screwed if this happened. Half of Code S would just vanish from the brackets. The better half of Code S.
we don't care what is their reason. if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv... making stupid thing like bo1 is not an acceptable solution to their problem, whatever it is.
uhh yeah say what you may but OGN is bigger than GOM and pointlessly whining isn't helping, just hope your favorite players make it through to the Ro16.
ok so plz tell me, if they are bigger then gom, why cant they make normal RO32?
GOM is internet channel that runs less things than OGN, which means OGN has less time available for SC2
so as i said, "if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv..."
but they're not running a code S, they're running an OSL
then fuck them and fuck OSL, we want code S back.
Ah yes, Code S the home of one-and-dones such as Seed, Sniper and jjakji vs. OSL stomping grounds of the likes of Nada, oov, flash, JD, Jangbang, etc. The format does not make a tournament, the players and the game do.
not like OSL has had its weird winners too though
Definitely true, but the era-defining players won most of the time. Would MVP have won fewer GSLs if it was Bo1 Ro32?
Maybe the majority of WoL's run needed Bo3s in Ro32, but let's see how HotS does... basically I think there is needless panic
Say TLO has a 10% chance of beating Innovation, that would mean in a bo1 Innovation would lose 10% of the time, but in a bo3 Innovation would only lose 2.8% of the time. Therefore, he would be almost 4 times as likely to lose in the bo1 format.
On June 13 2013 22:15 MrCon wrote: I understand why they do bo1, but every bo1 tournament was a failure and that's why no one do bo1 anymore. But wait and see, should still be good.
at least they changed the Ro16 to be Bo3 round robin instead of Bo1 or at least that's what the OP leads me to believe.
if at least the majority of the favorites survive the Ro32 then we are going to have a good season here.Lets hope to god they do or else there will ne a shitstorm that might claim a few lives
On June 13 2013 22:28 Penev wrote: Blizzard modeled the WCS after the GSL. Kinda strange that OGN thinks they can just change the format. Blizzard should intervene imo.
The tournament structure has been modeled off of GSL's Code S, Code A, and Code B system and is called Premier, Challenger, and Qualifier. This structure will run for all partners, including MLG and ESL. The Challenger events will run slightly differently in North America and Europe due to logistics in travel. Players will be able to move up and down within their own region as players do in GSL. Only the OSL will have differences, where there will be an additional Round of 32 added on played in a best-of-one format.
Blizzard agreed to this when they created WCS
Oh thanks. Didn't know that. Strange that they would agree with something like that. :/
we don't care what is their reason. if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv... making stupid thing like bo1 is not an acceptable solution to their problem, whatever it is.
uhh yeah say what you may but OGN is bigger than GOM and pointlessly whining isn't helping, just hope your favorite players make it through to the Ro16.
ok so plz tell me, if they are bigger then gom, why cant they make normal RO32?
GOM is internet channel that runs less things than OGN, which means OGN has less time available for SC2
so as i said, "if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv..."
but they're not running a code S, they're running an OSL
then fuck them and fuck OSL, we want code S back.
Ah yes, Code S the home of one-and-dones such as Seed, Sniper and jjakji vs. OSL stomping grounds of the likes of Nada, oov, flash, JD, Jangbang, etc. The format does not make a tournament, the players and the game do.
not like OSL has had its weird winners too though
Definitely true, but the era-defining players won most of the time. Would MVP have won fewer GSLs if it was Bo1 Ro32?
Maybe the majority of WoL's run needed Bo3s in Ro32, but let's see how HotS does... basically I think there is needless panic
mvp's only GSL that was RO32 BO3 group was his last one iirc
we don't care what is their reason. if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv... making stupid thing like bo1 is not an acceptable solution to their problem, whatever it is.
uhh yeah say what you may but OGN is bigger than GOM and pointlessly whining isn't helping, just hope your favorite players make it through to the Ro16.
ok so plz tell me, if they are bigger then gom, why cant they make normal RO32?
GOM is internet channel that runs less things than OGN, which means OGN has less time available for SC2
so as i said, "if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv..."
but they're not running a code S, they're running an OSL
then fuck them and fuck OSL, we want code S back.
Ah yes, Code S the home of one-and-dones such as Seed, Sniper and jjakji vs. OSL stomping grounds of the likes of Nada, oov, flash, JD, Jangbang, etc. The format does not make a tournament, the players and the game do.
not like OSL has had its weird winners too though
Definitely true, but the era-defining players won most of the time. Would MVP have won fewer GSLs if it was Bo1 Ro32?
Maybe the majority of WoL's run needed Bo3s in Ro32, but let's see how HotS does... basically I think there is needless panic
3 of the 4 GSLs Mvp won where in the era of GSL Code S having Bo1 group stage. Heck, his first GSL had not one but two Bo1 group stages (Ro32 being a dual tournament, Ro16 being round robin).
On June 13 2013 22:28 Penev wrote: Blizzard modeled the WCS after the GSL. Kinda strange that OGN thinks they can just change the format. Blizzard should intervene imo.
The tournament structure has been modeled off of GSL's Code S, Code A, and Code B system and is called Premier, Challenger, and Qualifier. This structure will run for all partners, including MLG and ESL. The Challenger events will run slightly differently in North America and Europe due to logistics in travel. Players will be able to move up and down within their own region as players do in GSL. Only the OSL will have differences, where there will be an additional Round of 32 added on played in a best-of-one format.
Blizzard agreed to this when they created WCS
Oh thanks. Didn't know that. Strange that they would agree with something like that. :/
Not that much. OSL can ask to do what they want (up until a certain limit I suppose) for running this, since they got quite an audience thanks to being on TV. (It'd be cool if we could have some numbers about this, but still, apart from Sweden, I don't think there is another country that has SC2 on TV...)
On June 13 2013 21:39 BLinD-RawR wrote: some really harsh hate, then again who would stop to consider why OGN is doing it this way.
we don't care what is their reason. if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv... making stupid thing like bo1 is not an acceptable solution to their problem, whatever it is.
uhh yeah say what you may but OGN is bigger than GOM and pointlessly whining isn't helping, just hope your favorite players make it through to the Ro16.
ok so plz tell me, if they are bigger then gom, why cant they make normal RO32?
GOM is internet channel that runs less things than OGN, which means OGN has less time available for SC2
so as i said, "if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv..."
but they're not running a code S, they're running an OSL
then fuck them and fuck OSL, we want code S back.
Ah yes, Code S the home of one-and-dones such as Seed, Sniper and jjakji vs. OSL stomping grounds of the likes of Nada, oov, flash, JD, Jangbang, etc. The format does not make a tournament, the players and the game do.
I for one prefer Bo1. In fact, I really don't like that they are making group stage Bo3. There are just too many games at the moment. I remember days when I would be hyped about a match up for a week and every game was memorable. Sure there were only 16 players in the tournament, round of 16 was round robin Bo1, round of 8 was only Bo3, and Finals only Bo5. You can say there were variances, people cheesed, it's random, etc. But I saw a lot of innovative strategies, map specific preparation, and rise of new stars. Would we have ever seen Anytime 2-gate DT only against Yellow in Bo3? Would we have seen epic 4 tiebreakers between Shine, Effort, and Gogo? I'm not suggesting that Bo1 is the best format. It is clear that better player has higher chance of winning when more games are played. But that's not necessarily better. I'm sure some people will disagree, but I personally think less games and more preparation is better for SC2. It generally gives better games, more new strategies, and more hype and focus on each game. Bo1 format didn't prevent players like savior, jaedong, flash to dominate an era. They may not win every individual tournament, but would that really be a good thing?
On June 13 2013 22:17 Schelim wrote: Blizzard should just boycott OSL and MLG imo. give WCS rights to the good organizations and let the others try to survive by themselves. if they can, great, more good tournaments, if they can't, great, less bad tournaments. i understand there would be an uproar, but sometimes if you make big changes (like WCS), you have to live with some backlash.
Gom would be screwed if this happened. Half of Code S would just vanish from the brackets. The better half of Code S.
OGN =/= KeSpa
OGN pays kespa. Gom doesn't. Did you see what happened in BW when Gom tried to get a tournament going? All the kespa teams ended up pulling out and the tournament failed
On June 13 2013 22:28 Penev wrote: Blizzard modeled the WCS after the GSL. Kinda strange that OGN thinks they can just change the format. Blizzard should intervene imo.
The tournament structure has been modeled off of GSL's Code S, Code A, and Code B system and is called Premier, Challenger, and Qualifier. This structure will run for all partners, including MLG and ESL. The Challenger events will run slightly differently in North America and Europe due to logistics in travel. Players will be able to move up and down within their own region as players do in GSL. Only the OSL will have differences, where there will be an additional Round of 32 added on played in a best-of-one format.
Blizzard agreed to this when they created WCS
Oh thanks. Didn't know that. Strange that they would agree with something like that. :/
Not that much. OSL can ask to do what they want (up until a certain limit I suppose) for running this, since they got quite an audience thanks to being on TV. (It'd be cool if we could have some numbers about this, but still, apart from Sweden, I don't think there is another country that has SC2 on TV...)
I think people forget that OSL is a major TV broadcast company in Korea. There is a limited amount of clout that Blizzard has with a company of that size. It would be like a Ubisoft trying to push around the BBC or CBS. Blizzard can't really force them to do anything and if they want to run their own format and that is the price for showing it on TV, Blizzard has to deal with that.
These sorts of deals are not made with "Its my way or the highway, take it or leave it" stances. That is not how business deals are made. If you try to act that way, you just burn bridges.
uhh yeah say what you may but OGN is bigger than GOM and pointlessly whining isn't helping, just hope your favorite players make it through to the Ro16.
ok so plz tell me, if they are bigger then gom, why cant they make normal RO32?
GOM is internet channel that runs less things than OGN, which means OGN has less time available for SC2
so as i said, "if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv..."
but they're not running a code S, they're running an OSL
then fuck them and fuck OSL, we want code S back.
Ah yes, Code S the home of one-and-dones such as Seed, Sniper and jjakji vs. OSL stomping grounds of the likes of Nada, oov, flash, JD, Jangbang, etc. The format does not make a tournament, the players and the game do.
not like OSL has had its weird winners too though
Definitely true, but the era-defining players won most of the time. Would MVP have won fewer GSLs if it was Bo1 Ro32?
Maybe the majority of WoL's run needed Bo3s in Ro32, but let's see how HotS does... basically I think there is needless panic
mvp's only GSL that was RO32 BO3 group was his last one iirc
Ok, I don't remember to be honest. Doesn't change my point though.
On June 13 2013 21:39 BLinD-RawR wrote: some really harsh hate, then again who would stop to consider why OGN is doing it this way.
we don't care what is their reason. if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv... making stupid thing like bo1 is not an acceptable solution to their problem, whatever it is.
uhh yeah say what you may but OGN is bigger than GOM and pointlessly whining isn't helping, just hope your favorite players make it through to the Ro16.
ok so plz tell me, if they are bigger then gom, why cant they make normal RO32?
GOM is internet channel that runs less things than OGN, which means OGN has less time available for SC2
so as i said, "if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv..."
but they're not running a code S, they're running an OSL
then fuck them and fuck OSL, we want code S back.
Ah yes, Code S the home of one-and-dones such as Seed, Sniper and jjakji vs. OSL stomping grounds of the likes of Nada, oov, flash, JD, Jangbang, etc. The format does not make a tournament, the players and the game do.
Nice comparison except this is HoTs not BW.
Hopefully the game itself doesn't make a huge difference (I think this is what scares people). The player pool is arguably the strongest in absolute and relative terms since the beginning of sc2.
On June 13 2013 22:28 Penev wrote: Blizzard modeled the WCS after the GSL. Kinda strange that OGN thinks they can just change the format. Blizzard should intervene imo.
The tournament structure has been modeled off of GSL's Code S, Code A, and Code B system and is called Premier, Challenger, and Qualifier. This structure will run for all partners, including MLG and ESL. The Challenger events will run slightly differently in North America and Europe due to logistics in travel. Players will be able to move up and down within their own region as players do in GSL. Only the OSL will have differences, where there will be an additional Round of 32 added on played in a best-of-one format.
Blizzard agreed to this when they created WCS
Oh thanks. Didn't know that. Strange that they would agree with something like that. :/
Not that much. OSL can ask to do what they want (up until a certain limit I suppose) for running this, since they got quite an audience thanks to being on TV. (It'd be cool if we could have some numbers about this, but still, apart from Sweden, I don't think there is another country that has SC2 on TV...)
It's clear that Blizzard wants OGN to be a part of WCS and why. But I don't think this was really a case of OGN pressuring Blizzard to do their own thing. They probably just didn't think it was a big deal when the agreed to it. Now "big" is a relative term but I would like to see them change it in the future, make all WCS's the same.
On June 13 2013 22:17 Schelim wrote: Blizzard should just boycott OSL and MLG imo. give WCS rights to the good organizations and let the others try to survive by themselves. if they can, great, more good tournaments, if they can't, great, less bad tournaments. i understand there would be an uproar, but sometimes if you make big changes (like WCS), you have to live with some backlash.
Gom would be screwed if this happened. Half of Code S would just vanish from the brackets. The better half of Code S.
OGN =/= KeSpa
OGN pays kespa. Gom doesn't. Did you see what happened in BW when Gom tried to get a tournament going? All the kespa teams ended up pulling out and the tournament failed
A lot has changed since then. Just look at what happened with Pro League.
On June 13 2013 16:00 ACrow wrote: Why would they make Ro32 Bo1? That's really, really, incredibly stupid. I thought they had to copy the proven GSL format, instead of making shitty modifications of their own again. That makes me really angry.
Meh, now that my annoyance at their territorial alpha male butchering of the format just for the sake of it is out of the way:
H: Rain, Keen: Bomber will be in choke mode early this tournament, I feel.
They use their proven OSL Format.
Might as well use Extended Series then.
There is no excuse that can be made other than it's simply OGN trying to fit it into their TV schdule. Well, if korea is their main focus in SC2 then they are simply doing it wrong, and it's sad to see Blizzard throwing so much money at this shit.
On June 13 2013 21:39 BLinD-RawR wrote: some really harsh hate, then again who would stop to consider why OGN is doing it this way.
we don't care what is their reason. if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv... making stupid thing like bo1 is not an acceptable solution to their problem, whatever it is.
uhh yeah say what you may but OGN is bigger than GOM and pointlessly whining isn't helping, just hope your favorite players make it through to the Ro16.
ok so plz tell me, if they are bigger then gom, why cant they make normal RO32?
GOM is internet channel that runs less things than OGN, which means OGN has less time available for SC2
so as i said, "if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv..."
but they're not running a code S, they're running an OSL
They are running WCS not OSL. And WCS was supposed to be unified format and schedule. Until now. Well, least they get it on TV, cause otherwise this is really unacceptable.
guys if someone is to be booted from holding WCS, it should be some internet channel who fails to make sc2 big in 3 years and lets most of their teams dying of sponsor & content sad but true
On June 13 2013 21:39 BLinD-RawR wrote: some really harsh hate, then again who would stop to consider why OGN is doing it this way.
we don't care what is their reason. if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv... making stupid thing like bo1 is not an acceptable solution to their problem, whatever it is.
uhh yeah say what you may but OGN is bigger than GOM and pointlessly whining isn't helping, just hope your favorite players make it through to the Ro16.
ok so plz tell me, if they are bigger then gom, why cant they make normal RO32?
GOM is internet channel that runs less things than OGN, which means OGN has less time available for SC2
so as i said, "if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv..."
but they're not running a code S, they're running an OSL
They are running WCS not OSL. And WCS supposed to be unified format and schedule. Until now.
you think Blizzard really cares about unified format & shit? They get a hold of Korean tournament AND get their products on television which is tied closely with the iconic OSL. Mission accomplished. Whoever behind this scheme is a genius.
On June 13 2013 21:39 BLinD-RawR wrote: some really harsh hate, then again who would stop to consider why OGN is doing it this way.
we don't care what is their reason. if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv... making stupid thing like bo1 is not an acceptable solution to their problem, whatever it is.
uhh yeah say what you may but OGN is bigger than GOM and pointlessly whining isn't helping, just hope your favorite players make it through to the Ro16.
ok so plz tell me, if they are bigger then gom, why cant they make normal RO32?
GOM is internet channel that runs less things than OGN, which means OGN has less time available for SC2
so as i said, "if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv..."
but they're not running a code S, they're running an OSL
then fuck them and fuck OSL, we want code S back.
And what want Blizzard ? I guess Blizzard want OGN to promote WCS to its big mainstream korean audience
On June 13 2013 22:17 SamirDuran wrote: to those who complains about bo1 format. WELCOME TO OSL! The home of champions such as oov, boxer, nada, flash, jaedong, jangbi, fantasy and many more
No, we don't have a time machine to watch BW players and BW games. This is SC2 and cheese and allin in sc2 in Bo1 create terrible games and let less skillful players advance. (Too) Many seasons of GSL proved that.
On June 13 2013 16:05 -Archangel- wrote: Omg bo1 in ro32. That is so 2011... Why did Blizzard give a licence to these jokers?!
Because television. It seems people fail to grasp how big of a deal that can be.
So people on TV can also see terrible cheese games and less skillful players going through?!
How do we define skill?
However we do, it is not by bo1 format. Usually it is by a player that wins more games in a bo3 to bo7 competitions because even best players can be cheesed out in bo1.
On June 13 2013 16:05 -Archangel- wrote: Omg bo1 in ro32. That is so 2011... Why did Blizzard give a licence to these jokers?!
Because television. It seems people fail to grasp how big of a deal that can be.
So people on TV can also see terrible cheese games and less skillful players going through?!
Its is how OSL has always run their events, from what folks are saying. I don't think Blizzard is going to dictate the specifics to how OSL is going to run the event. OSL is a huge company and a major broadcaster in Korea.
On June 13 2013 22:17 SamirDuran wrote: to those who complains about bo1 format. WELCOME TO OSL! The home of champions such as oov, boxer, nada, flash, jaedong, jangbi, fantasy and many more
No, we don't have a time machine to watch BW players and BW games. This is SC2 and cheese and allin in sc2 in Bo1 create terrible games and let less skillful players advance. (Too) Many seasons of GSL proved that.
HotS is very different than the early days of WoL. There aren't any BitByBits anymore to 2 rax every game. Or Inca's. Or Kyrix's to baneling bust. Hell in those GSL seasons that you're talking about MKP was willing to SCV all in for every single game of a bo7! We were playing on Steppes of War and scrap station. Shakuras Plateau was the most balanced map in the map pool. Every game, whether in a bo1 or a bo7 was cheese by today's standard of play.
Just like Hots isn't the same game as BW, its not the same game as GSL 2011 WOL
On June 13 2013 16:05 -Archangel- wrote: Omg bo1 in ro32. That is so 2011... Why did Blizzard give a licence to these jokers?!
Because television. It seems people fail to grasp how big of a deal that can be.
So people on TV can also see terrible cheese games and less skillful players going through?!
Its is how OSL has always run their events, from what folks are saying. I don't think Blizzard is going to dictate the specifics to how OSL is going to run the event. OSL is a huge company and a major broadcaster in Korea.
I don't care how they run them in another game. BW and Sc2 are too different to keep same format.
On June 13 2013 22:17 SamirDuran wrote: to those who complains about bo1 format. WELCOME TO OSL! The home of champions such as oov, boxer, nada, flash, jaedong, jangbi, fantasy and many more
No, we don't have a time machine to watch BW players and BW games. This is SC2 and cheese and allin in sc2 in Bo1 create terrible games and let less skillful players advance. (Too) Many seasons of GSL proved that.
HotS is very different than the early days of WoL. There aren't any BitByBits anymore to 2 rax every game. Or Inca's. Or Kyrix's to baneling bust. Hell in those GSL seasons that you're talking about MKP was willing to SCV all in for every single game of a bo7! We were playing on Steppes of War and scrap station. Shakuras Plateau was the most balanced map in the map pool. Every game, whether in a bo1 or a bo7 was cheese by today's standard of play.
I don't see how it is that much different. Only cause we switched to bo3 and those cheesers went away. Just watch OSL, I bet there will be so many cheeses and allins people will go beserk and sc2 will lose all appeal to undecided masses.
On June 13 2013 16:05 -Archangel- wrote: Omg bo1 in ro32. That is so 2011... Why did Blizzard give a licence to these jokers?!
Because television. It seems people fail to grasp how big of a deal that can be.
So people on TV can also see terrible cheese games and less skillful players going through?!
Its is how OSL has always run their events, from what folks are saying. I don't think Blizzard is going to dictate the specifics to how OSL is going to run the event. OSL is a huge company and a major broadcaster in Korea.
I don't care how they run them in another game. BW and Sc2 are too different to keep same format.
On June 13 2013 22:17 SamirDuran wrote: to those who complains about bo1 format. WELCOME TO OSL! The home of champions such as oov, boxer, nada, flash, jaedong, jangbi, fantasy and many more
No, we don't have a time machine to watch BW players and BW games. This is SC2 and cheese and allin in sc2 in Bo1 create terrible games and let less skillful players advance. (Too) Many seasons of GSL proved that.
HotS is very different than the early days of WoL. There aren't any BitByBits anymore to 2 rax every game. Or Inca's. Or Kyrix's to baneling bust. Hell in those GSL seasons that you're talking about MKP was willing to SCV all in for every single game of a bo7! We were playing on Steppes of War and scrap station. Shakuras Plateau was the most balanced map in the map pool. Every game, whether in a bo1 or a bo7 was cheese by today's standard of play.
I don't see how it is that much different. Only cause we switched to bo3 and those cheesers went away. Just watch OSL, I bet there will be so many cheeses and allins people will go beserk and sc2 will lose all appeal to undecided masses.
Yes and children will die in Africa and the world will end, we get it. You're so rationnal. This thread is a goldmine, the funniest part being that no loser pick means the format is about ten times better.
pretty exciting but best of one double-elimination in ro32 feels like we're getting robbed of games and (more importantly) players who deserve ro16 will be robbed of their spot by some bad build order clash.
On June 13 2013 16:05 -Archangel- wrote: Omg bo1 in ro32. That is so 2011... Why did Blizzard give a licence to these jokers?!
Because television. It seems people fail to grasp how big of a deal that can be.
So people on TV can also see terrible cheese games and less skillful players going through?!
Its is how OSL has always run their events, from what folks are saying. I don't think Blizzard is going to dictate the specifics to how OSL is going to run the event. OSL is a huge company and a major broadcaster in Korea.
I don't care how they run them in another game. BW and Sc2 are too different to keep same format.
On June 13 2013 22:17 SamirDuran wrote: to those who complains about bo1 format. WELCOME TO OSL! The home of champions such as oov, boxer, nada, flash, jaedong, jangbi, fantasy and many more
No, we don't have a time machine to watch BW players and BW games. This is SC2 and cheese and allin in sc2 in Bo1 create terrible games and let less skillful players advance. (Too) Many seasons of GSL proved that.
HotS is very different than the early days of WoL. There aren't any BitByBits anymore to 2 rax every game. Or Inca's. Or Kyrix's to baneling bust. Hell in those GSL seasons that you're talking about MKP was willing to SCV all in for every single game of a bo7! We were playing on Steppes of War and scrap station. Shakuras Plateau was the most balanced map in the map pool. Every game, whether in a bo1 or a bo7 was cheese by today's standard of play.
I don't see how it is that much different. Only cause we switched to bo3 and those cheesers went away. Just watch OSL, I bet there will be so many cheeses and allins people will go beserk and sc2 will lose all appeal to undecided masses.
These were bo7's with nearly every game being cheese. These were the dominant strategies of early WoL. Now compare them to the bo5's and bo7's you saw at the wcs finals. You don't see the massive differences in the way the game was played?
On June 13 2013 16:05 -Archangel- wrote: Omg bo1 in ro32. That is so 2011... Why did Blizzard give a licence to these jokers?!
Because television. It seems people fail to grasp how big of a deal that can be.
So people on TV can also see terrible cheese games and less skillful players going through?!
Its is how OSL has always run their events, from what folks are saying. I don't think Blizzard is going to dictate the specifics to how OSL is going to run the event. OSL is a huge company and a major broadcaster in Korea.
That remains to be seen. If this OSL disappoints and they get a lot of negative feedback I'm sure there's going to be a OGN Blizzard meeting. But the people at OGN aren't stupid; If their format would be the reason of failure I'm sure they'd make some adjustments themselves. We'll see, people have short memories. If the overall tournament is a success people are probably just going to accept the format. It has to be a success though; otherwise this format thing will continue to be a negative thing.
On June 13 2013 16:05 -Archangel- wrote: Omg bo1 in ro32. That is so 2011... Why did Blizzard give a licence to these jokers?!
Because television. It seems people fail to grasp how big of a deal that can be.
So people on TV can also see terrible cheese games and less skillful players going through?!
Its is how OSL has always run their events, from what folks are saying. I don't think Blizzard is going to dictate the specifics to how OSL is going to run the event. OSL is a huge company and a major broadcaster in Korea.
I don't care how they run them in another game. BW and Sc2 are too different to keep same format.
On June 13 2013 22:17 SamirDuran wrote: to those who complains about bo1 format. WELCOME TO OSL! The home of champions such as oov, boxer, nada, flash, jaedong, jangbi, fantasy and many more
No, we don't have a time machine to watch BW players and BW games. This is SC2 and cheese and allin in sc2 in Bo1 create terrible games and let less skillful players advance. (Too) Many seasons of GSL proved that.
HotS is very different than the early days of WoL. There aren't any BitByBits anymore to 2 rax every game. Or Inca's. Or Kyrix's to baneling bust. Hell in those GSL seasons that you're talking about MKP was willing to SCV all in for every single game of a bo7! We were playing on Steppes of War and scrap station. Shakuras Plateau was the most balanced map in the map pool. Every game, whether in a bo1 or a bo7 was cheese by today's standard of play.
I don't see how it is that much different. Only cause we switched to bo3 and those cheesers went away. Just watch OSL, I bet there will be so many cheeses and allins people will go beserk and sc2 will lose all appeal to undecided masses.
If it's only cheeses and all-ins it should be pretty easy to stop. It's not very difficult to win a game if you know what's coming. Which of course is why it *won't* be all cheeses and all-ins and why the people in this thread are over exaggerating everything.
On June 13 2013 16:05 -Archangel- wrote: Omg bo1 in ro32. That is so 2011... Why did Blizzard give a licence to these jokers?!
Because television. It seems people fail to grasp how big of a deal that can be.
So people on TV can also see terrible cheese games and less skillful players going through?!
Its is how OSL has always run their events, from what folks are saying. I don't think Blizzard is going to dictate the specifics to how OSL is going to run the event. OSL is a huge company and a major broadcaster in Korea.
I don't care how they run them in another game. BW and Sc2 are too different to keep same format.
On June 14 2013 00:05 HeroWeDeserve wrote:
On June 13 2013 23:58 -Archangel- wrote:
On June 13 2013 22:17 SamirDuran wrote: to those who complains about bo1 format. WELCOME TO OSL! The home of champions such as oov, boxer, nada, flash, jaedong, jangbi, fantasy and many more
No, we don't have a time machine to watch BW players and BW games. This is SC2 and cheese and allin in sc2 in Bo1 create terrible games and let less skillful players advance. (Too) Many seasons of GSL proved that.
HotS is very different than the early days of WoL. There aren't any BitByBits anymore to 2 rax every game. Or Inca's. Or Kyrix's to baneling bust. Hell in those GSL seasons that you're talking about MKP was willing to SCV all in for every single game of a bo7! We were playing on Steppes of War and scrap station. Shakuras Plateau was the most balanced map in the map pool. Every game, whether in a bo1 or a bo7 was cheese by today's standard of play.
I don't see how it is that much different. Only cause we switched to bo3 and those cheesers went away. Just watch OSL, I bet there will be so many cheeses and allins people will go beserk and sc2 will lose all appeal to undecided masses.
If it's only cheeses and all-ins it should be pretty easy to stop. It's not very difficult to win a game if you know what's coming. Which of course is why it *won't* be all cheeses and all-ins and why the people in this thread are over exaggerating everything.
I really doubt it is going to all cheese. We will see some strong all ins and some pretty creative builds, but that is the nature of the game. I can understand why people want the same format as GSL, but I also respect that OSL is going to do its own thing like it has for years.
On June 13 2013 16:05 -Archangel- wrote: Omg bo1 in ro32. That is so 2011... Why did Blizzard give a licence to these jokers?!
Because television. It seems people fail to grasp how big of a deal that can be.
So people on TV can also see terrible cheese games and less skillful players going through?!
Its is how OSL has always run their events, from what folks are saying. I don't think Blizzard is going to dictate the specifics to how OSL is going to run the event. OSL is a huge company and a major broadcaster in Korea.
I don't care how they run them in another game. BW and Sc2 are too different to keep same format.
On June 14 2013 00:05 HeroWeDeserve wrote:
On June 13 2013 23:58 -Archangel- wrote:
On June 13 2013 22:17 SamirDuran wrote: to those who complains about bo1 format. WELCOME TO OSL! The home of champions such as oov, boxer, nada, flash, jaedong, jangbi, fantasy and many more
No, we don't have a time machine to watch BW players and BW games. This is SC2 and cheese and allin in sc2 in Bo1 create terrible games and let less skillful players advance. (Too) Many seasons of GSL proved that.
HotS is very different than the early days of WoL. There aren't any BitByBits anymore to 2 rax every game. Or Inca's. Or Kyrix's to baneling bust. Hell in those GSL seasons that you're talking about MKP was willing to SCV all in for every single game of a bo7! We were playing on Steppes of War and scrap station. Shakuras Plateau was the most balanced map in the map pool. Every game, whether in a bo1 or a bo7 was cheese by today's standard of play.
I don't see how it is that much different. Only cause we switched to bo3 and those cheesers went away. Just watch OSL, I bet there will be so many cheeses and allins people will go beserk and sc2 will lose all appeal to undecided masses.
These were bo7's with nearly every game being cheese. These were the dominant strategies of early WoL. Now compare them to the bo5's and bo7's you saw at the wcs finals. You don't see the massive differences in the way the game was played?
Im guessing you didnt see the last GSL finals but here is what happened: Soulkey came back from 0 - 3 with 4 straight wins doing nothing but roach/bane all ins. Actually roach/bane busts are more common now than they every were in TvZ. Only difference being that they arent just as all inish as the earliest pushes. But still..
On June 13 2013 16:05 -Archangel- wrote: Omg bo1 in ro32. That is so 2011... Why did Blizzard give a licence to these jokers?!
Because television. It seems people fail to grasp how big of a deal that can be.
So people on TV can also see terrible cheese games and less skillful players going through?!
Its is how OSL has always run their events, from what folks are saying. I don't think Blizzard is going to dictate the specifics to how OSL is going to run the event. OSL is a huge company and a major broadcaster in Korea.
I don't care how they run them in another game. BW and Sc2 are too different to keep same format.
On June 14 2013 00:05 HeroWeDeserve wrote:
On June 13 2013 23:58 -Archangel- wrote:
On June 13 2013 22:17 SamirDuran wrote: to those who complains about bo1 format. WELCOME TO OSL! The home of champions such as oov, boxer, nada, flash, jaedong, jangbi, fantasy and many more
No, we don't have a time machine to watch BW players and BW games. This is SC2 and cheese and allin in sc2 in Bo1 create terrible games and let less skillful players advance. (Too) Many seasons of GSL proved that.
HotS is very different than the early days of WoL. There aren't any BitByBits anymore to 2 rax every game. Or Inca's. Or Kyrix's to baneling bust. Hell in those GSL seasons that you're talking about MKP was willing to SCV all in for every single game of a bo7! We were playing on Steppes of War and scrap station. Shakuras Plateau was the most balanced map in the map pool. Every game, whether in a bo1 or a bo7 was cheese by today's standard of play.
I don't see how it is that much different. Only cause we switched to bo3 and those cheesers went away. Just watch OSL, I bet there will be so many cheeses and allins people will go beserk and sc2 will lose all appeal to undecided masses.
These were bo7's with nearly every game being cheese. These were the dominant strategies of early WoL. Now compare them to the bo5's and bo7's you saw at the wcs finals. You don't see the massive differences in the way the game was played?
Im guessing you didnt see the last GSL finals but here is what happened: Soulkey came back from 0 - 3 with 4 straight wins doing nothing but roach/bane all ins. Actually roach/bane busts are more common now than they every were in TvZ. Only difference being that they arent just as all inish as the earliest pushes. But still..
And those were in response to greedy builds that didn't use tanks. Macro games are not the only way to play SC2 and really, if you play all macro games, it will hurt you as a player. MVP has proven this.
A best of one is unforgiving, but all these players are code S level. It isn't like they are some random scrubs.
On June 13 2013 22:38 sihyunie wrote: I for one prefer Bo1. In fact, I really don't like that they are making group stage Bo3. There are just too many games at the moment. I remember days when I would be hyped about a match up for a week and every game was memorable. Sure there were only 16 players in the tournament, round of 16 was round robin Bo1, round of 8 was only Bo3, and Finals only Bo5. You can say there were variances, people cheesed, it's random, etc. But I saw a lot of innovative strategies, map specific preparation, and rise of new stars. Would we have ever seen Anytime 2-gate DT only against Yellow in Bo3? Would we have seen epic 4 tiebreakers between Shine, Effort, and Gogo? I'm not suggesting that Bo1 is the best format. It is clear that better player has higher chance of winning when more games are played. But that's not necessarily better. I'm sure some people will disagree, but I personally think less games and more preparation is better for SC2. It generally gives better games, more new strategies, and more hype and focus on each game. Bo1 format didn't prevent players like savior, jaedong, flash to dominate an era. They may not win every individual tournament, but would that really be a good thing?
Although I don't completely agree, I think this is a good post that raises some important points.
Bo1 is more debatable. I suppose it also adds a lot more tension and suspense. But random map draws without vetos is really quite unfair I feel. There are some maps which clearly favour some races (statistically) and I hope a better player doesn't lose just because of a bad map roll. There's something to be said for cheese being a viable strategy, and every player should at least account for it.
On June 13 2013 16:05 -Archangel- wrote: Omg bo1 in ro32. That is so 2011... Why did Blizzard give a licence to these jokers?!
Because television. It seems people fail to grasp how big of a deal that can be.
So people on TV can also see terrible cheese games and less skillful players going through?!
Its is how OSL has always run their events, from what folks are saying. I don't think Blizzard is going to dictate the specifics to how OSL is going to run the event. OSL is a huge company and a major broadcaster in Korea.
I don't care how they run them in another game. BW and Sc2 are too different to keep same format.
On June 14 2013 00:05 HeroWeDeserve wrote:
On June 13 2013 23:58 -Archangel- wrote:
On June 13 2013 22:17 SamirDuran wrote: to those who complains about bo1 format. WELCOME TO OSL! The home of champions such as oov, boxer, nada, flash, jaedong, jangbi, fantasy and many more
No, we don't have a time machine to watch BW players and BW games. This is SC2 and cheese and allin in sc2 in Bo1 create terrible games and let less skillful players advance. (Too) Many seasons of GSL proved that.
HotS is very different than the early days of WoL. There aren't any BitByBits anymore to 2 rax every game. Or Inca's. Or Kyrix's to baneling bust. Hell in those GSL seasons that you're talking about MKP was willing to SCV all in for every single game of a bo7! We were playing on Steppes of War and scrap station. Shakuras Plateau was the most balanced map in the map pool. Every game, whether in a bo1 or a bo7 was cheese by today's standard of play.
I don't see how it is that much different. Only cause we switched to bo3 and those cheesers went away. Just watch OSL, I bet there will be so many cheeses and allins people will go beserk and sc2 will lose all appeal to undecided masses.
These were bo7's with nearly every game being cheese. These were the dominant strategies of early WoL. Now compare them to the bo5's and bo7's you saw at the wcs finals. You don't see the massive differences in the way the game was played?
Im guessing you didnt see the last GSL finals but here is what happened: Soulkey came back from 0 - 3 with 4 straight wins doing nothing but roach/bane all ins. Actually roach/bane busts are more common now than they every were in TvZ. Only difference being that they arent just as all inish as the earliest pushes. But still..
Not sure how bringing up that zergs like to do 3 base timings is arguing against my point that HotS is a completely different game than early wings. Think it supports my point.
Good news! This isn't the GSL. It's the OSL. You don't have to pay GOM for this season. Come to think of it, I don't know that you would want to - you can pull the audio and get the higher resolution OGN stream. From what I understand, GOM will be doing what OGN was doing for last season's Code S - streaming from a feed from OGN. (Yes, DoA and Montechristo were casting the GSL... from OGN studios. Never got many viewers. Khaldor referenced this on SotG today.)
You're not telling me anything I don't already know and also not care about. OGN's production of the first SC2 OSL was bad. OGN's production of the WCS Grand Final was bad. OGN's stream is NOT better than Gom's IMO because they zoom out the friggin game and leave black bars around the edges for no reason. Yeah, it's 1080p, but that means a little less when they don't actually let the game window fill the screen.
And I KNOW this isn't the GSL. That's the problem. That's what I'm saying. I want GSL back. Normally, THERE WOULD BE A GSL STARTING SOON. Now there isn't, because of whatever this crappy deal is between Gom and OGN and Blizzard and the WCS mess.
*Also, OGN not using the updated observer interfaces is spectacularly annoying after we've been seeing them in ALL tournaments for months now.
Good news! This isn't the GSL. It's the OSL. You don't have to pay GOM for this season. Come to think of it, I don't know that you would want to - you can pull the audio and get the higher resolution OGN stream. From what I understand, GOM will be doing what OGN was doing for last season's Code S - streaming from a feed from OGN. (Yes, DoA and Montechristo were casting the GSL... from OGN studios. Never got many viewers. Khaldor referenced this on SotG today.)
You're not telling me anything I don't already know and also not care about. OGN's production of the first SC2 OSL was bad. OGN's production of the WCS Grand Final was bad. OGN's stream is NOT better than Gom's IMO because they zoom out the friggin game and leave black bars around the edges for no reason. Yeah, it's 1080p, but that means a little less when they don't actually let the game window fill the screen.
And I KNOW this isn't the GSL. That's the problem. That's what I'm saying. I want GSL back. Normally, THERE WOULD BE A GSL STARTING SOON. Now there isn't, because of whatever this crappy deal is between Gom and OGN and Blizzard and the WCS mess.
Okay... so why do you prefer Gomtv's broadcast to OGN's? What technical reasons could you have?
The player pool? The first OSL was mostly kespa players, now it's shared and continuous from GSL so I hardly see a problem there. The technical aspects of the stream? OGN's stream was better, and if you don't like black bars I'm sure it's an easy fix for them to change it. The casters? Gomtv has the embargo on tastosis and they won't let OGN have them casting OGN streams, this is hardly OGN's fault since tastosis are under contract with Gomtv. The production values? Really? OGN's production values was bad? How? They've been in business on live television for years now.
You are fine to have your subjective preferences as to which stream you prefer to watch, but I don't see how OGN's streaming service is worse than Gomtv's.
On June 13 2013 16:05 -Archangel- wrote: Omg bo1 in ro32. That is so 2011... Why did Blizzard give a licence to these jokers?!
Because television. It seems people fail to grasp how big of a deal that can be.
So people on TV can also see terrible cheese games and less skillful players going through?!
Its is how OSL has always run their events, from what folks are saying. I don't think Blizzard is going to dictate the specifics to how OSL is going to run the event. OSL is a huge company and a major broadcaster in Korea.
I don't care how they run them in another game. BW and Sc2 are too different to keep same format.
On June 14 2013 00:05 HeroWeDeserve wrote:
On June 13 2013 23:58 -Archangel- wrote:
On June 13 2013 22:17 SamirDuran wrote: to those who complains about bo1 format. WELCOME TO OSL! The home of champions such as oov, boxer, nada, flash, jaedong, jangbi, fantasy and many more
No, we don't have a time machine to watch BW players and BW games. This is SC2 and cheese and allin in sc2 in Bo1 create terrible games and let less skillful players advance. (Too) Many seasons of GSL proved that.
HotS is very different than the early days of WoL. There aren't any BitByBits anymore to 2 rax every game. Or Inca's. Or Kyrix's to baneling bust. Hell in those GSL seasons that you're talking about MKP was willing to SCV all in for every single game of a bo7! We were playing on Steppes of War and scrap station. Shakuras Plateau was the most balanced map in the map pool. Every game, whether in a bo1 or a bo7 was cheese by today's standard of play.
I don't see how it is that much different. Only cause we switched to bo3 and those cheesers went away. Just watch OSL, I bet there will be so many cheeses and allins people will go beserk and sc2 will lose all appeal to undecided masses.
These were bo7's with nearly every game being cheese. These were the dominant strategies of early WoL. Now compare them to the bo5's and bo7's you saw at the wcs finals. You don't see the massive differences in the way the game was played?
Im guessing you didnt see the last GSL finals but here is what happened: Soulkey came back from 0 - 3 with 4 straight wins doing nothing but roach/bane all ins. Actually roach/bane busts are more common now than they every were in TvZ. Only difference being that they arent just as all inish as the earliest pushes. But still..
And those were in response to greedy builds that didn't use tanks. Macro games are not the only way to play SC2 and really, if you play all macro games, it will hurt you as a player. MVP has proven this.
A best of one is unforgiving, but all these players are code S level. It isn't like they are some random scrubs.
I love how posters love to use the generalizations about how other players play. It's baffling.
On June 13 2013 21:39 BLinD-RawR wrote: some really harsh hate, then again who would stop to consider why OGN is doing it this way.
we don't care what is their reason. if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv... making stupid thing like bo1 is not an acceptable solution to their problem, whatever it is.
uhh yeah say what you may but OGN is bigger than GOM and pointlessly whining isn't helping, just hope your favorite players make it through to the Ro16.
ok so plz tell me, if they are bigger then gom, why cant they make normal RO32?
GOM is internet channel that runs less things than OGN, which means OGN has less time available for SC2
so as i said, "if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv..."
but they're not running a code S, they're running an OSL
then fuck them and fuck OSL, we want code S back.
Ah yes, Code S the home of one-and-dones such as Seed, Sniper and jjakji vs. OSL stomping grounds of the likes of Nada, oov, flash, JD, Jangbang, etc. The format does not make a tournament, the players and the game do.
not like OSL has had its weird winners too though
It's very rare though. The same could be said about the MSL, but heck.. they sure did have Zerg friendly maps in that one.
On June 13 2013 21:39 BLinD-RawR wrote: some really harsh hate, then again who would stop to consider why OGN is doing it this way.
we don't care what is their reason. if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv... making stupid thing like bo1 is not an acceptable solution to their problem, whatever it is.
uhh yeah say what you may but OGN is bigger than GOM and pointlessly whining isn't helping, just hope your favorite players make it through to the Ro16.
ok so plz tell me, if they are bigger then gom, why cant they make normal RO32?
GOM is internet channel that runs less things than OGN, which means OGN has less time available for SC2
so as i said, "if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv..."
but they're not running a code S, they're running an OSL
then fuck them and fuck OSL, we want code S back.
Ah yes, Code S the home of one-and-dones such as Seed, Sniper and jjakji vs. OSL stomping grounds of the likes of Nada, oov, flash, JD, Jangbang, etc. The format does not make a tournament, the players and the game do.
not like OSL has had its weird winners too though
OSL doesnt really have weird winners. MSL is the one with the weird champions lol
we don't care what is their reason. if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv... making stupid thing like bo1 is not an acceptable solution to their problem, whatever it is.
uhh yeah say what you may but OGN is bigger than GOM and pointlessly whining isn't helping, just hope your favorite players make it through to the Ro16.
ok so plz tell me, if they are bigger then gom, why cant they make normal RO32?
GOM is internet channel that runs less things than OGN, which means OGN has less time available for SC2
so as i said, "if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv..."
but they're not running a code S, they're running an OSL
then fuck them and fuck OSL, we want code S back.
Ah yes, Code S the home of one-and-dones such as Seed, Sniper and jjakji vs. OSL stomping grounds of the likes of Nada, oov, flash, JD, Jangbang, etc. The format does not make a tournament, the players and the game do.
not like OSL has had its weird winners too though
OSL doesnt really have weird winners. MSL is the one with the weird champions lol
uhh yeah say what you may but OGN is bigger than GOM and pointlessly whining isn't helping, just hope your favorite players make it through to the Ro16.
ok so plz tell me, if they are bigger then gom, why cant they make normal RO32?
GOM is internet channel that runs less things than OGN, which means OGN has less time available for SC2
so as i said, "if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv..."
but they're not running a code S, they're running an OSL
then fuck them and fuck OSL, we want code S back.
Ah yes, Code S the home of one-and-dones such as Seed, Sniper and jjakji vs. OSL stomping grounds of the likes of Nada, oov, flash, JD, Jangbang, etc. The format does not make a tournament, the players and the game do.
not like OSL has had its weird winners too though
OSL doesnt really have weird winners. MSL is the one with the weird champions lol
Hello zerg maps.
I'd consider Mind and forGG as weird champions too. But yeah, forgg won due to maps. So I guess you have a point.
I still think that WCS is worse than what we had. They should've kept the same formula as always: OSL and GSL on parallel through 2-3 months, Proleague, GSTL, and online foreign tournaments through the week/offline on weekends. As we saw in WCS finals, most players from NA and EU (IE everyone except Mvp) are just inferior to WCS KR top players.
Why are they allowed to change the rules of WCS and have BO1 ? Quite sad. OGN need also to prove they really care about the foreign viewers, and improve their show I hope Blizzard help them.
On June 13 2013 22:38 sihyunie wrote: I for one prefer Bo1. In fact, I really don't like that they are making group stage Bo3. There are just too many games at the moment. I remember days when I would be hyped about a match up for a week and every game was memorable. Sure there were only 16 players in the tournament, round of 16 was round robin Bo1, round of 8 was only Bo3, and Finals only Bo5. You can say there were variances, people cheesed, it's random, etc. But I saw a lot of innovative strategies, map specific preparation, and rise of new stars. Would we have ever seen Anytime 2-gate DT only against Yellow in Bo3? Would we have seen epic 4 tiebreakers between Shine, Effort, and Gogo? I'm not suggesting that Bo1 is the best format. It is clear that better player has higher chance of winning when more games are played. But that's not necessarily better. I'm sure some people will disagree, but I personally think less games and more preparation is better for SC2. It generally gives better games, more new strategies, and more hype and focus on each game. Bo1 format didn't prevent players like savior, jaedong, flash to dominate an era. They may not win every individual tournament, but would that really be a good thing?
Although I don't completely agree, I think this is a good post that raises some important points.
Bo1 is more debatable. I suppose it also adds a lot more tension and suspense. But random map draws without vetos is really quite unfair I feel. There are some maps which clearly favour some races (statistically) and I hope a better player doesn't lose just because of a bad map roll. There's something to be said for cheese being a viable strategy, and every player should at least account for it.
I love watching games live as much as possible. But when the round of 16 lasts from 2am-6am 3-4 days a week (GSL) it just gets too much you know?
Bo1 would make the early stages last as long as the finals. And I think that's a good thing.
I think most people got too attached to the idea of "_____ got unlucky that's all!" without realizing that a group shouldn't last 4-6 hours a day for the sake of an upset fanboy...
On June 13 2013 22:38 sihyunie wrote: I for one prefer Bo1. In fact, I really don't like that they are making group stage Bo3. There are just too many games at the moment. I remember days when I would be hyped about a match up for a week and every game was memorable. Sure there were only 16 players in the tournament, round of 16 was round robin Bo1, round of 8 was only Bo3, and Finals only Bo5. You can say there were variances, people cheesed, it's random, etc. But I saw a lot of innovative strategies, map specific preparation, and rise of new stars. Would we have ever seen Anytime 2-gate DT only against Yellow in Bo3? Would we have seen epic 4 tiebreakers between Shine, Effort, and Gogo? I'm not suggesting that Bo1 is the best format. It is clear that better player has higher chance of winning when more games are played. But that's not necessarily better. I'm sure some people will disagree, but I personally think less games and more preparation is better for SC2. It generally gives better games, more new strategies, and more hype and focus on each game. Bo1 format didn't prevent players like savior, jaedong, flash to dominate an era. They may not win every individual tournament, but would that really be a good thing?
Although I don't completely agree, I think this is a good post that raises some important points.
Bo1 is more debatable. I suppose it also adds a lot more tension and suspense. But random map draws without vetos is really quite unfair I feel. There are some maps which clearly favour some races (statistically) and I hope a better player doesn't lose just because of a bad map roll. There's something to be said for cheese being a viable strategy, and every player should at least account for it.
I love watching games live as much as possible. But when the round of 16 lasts from 2am-6am 3-4 days a week (GSL) it just gets too much you know?
Bo1 would make the early stages last as long as the finals. And I think that's a good thing.
I think most people got too attached to the idea of "_____ got unlucky that's all!" without realizing that a group shouldn't last 4-6 hours a day for the sake of an upset fanboy...
I normally end up skipping the first rounds of GSL because it takes so long to get through them. I mean, there is a reason that most sports fans only watch 1-2 games a week of a specific sport. We got other stuff to do.
On June 14 2013 02:19 Thieving Magpie wrote: I think most people got too attached to the idea of "_____ got unlucky that's all!" without realizing that a group shouldn't last 4-6 hours a day for the sake of an upset fanboy...
I think it's much more important to have a tournament structure with real integrity for the sake of the players trying to qualify for Blizzcon.
ok so plz tell me, if they are bigger then gom, why cant they make normal RO32?
GOM is internet channel that runs less things than OGN, which means OGN has less time available for SC2
so as i said, "if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv..."
but they're not running a code S, they're running an OSL
then fuck them and fuck OSL, we want code S back.
Ah yes, Code S the home of one-and-dones such as Seed, Sniper and jjakji vs. OSL stomping grounds of the likes of Nada, oov, flash, JD, Jangbang, etc. The format does not make a tournament, the players and the game do.
not like OSL has had its weird winners too though
OSL doesnt really have weird winners. MSL is the one with the weird champions lol
Hello zerg maps.
I'd consider Mind and forGG as weird champions too. But yeah, forgg won due to maps. So I guess you have a point.
I'd consider all winners weird because they are not Bisu
On June 14 2013 02:19 Thieving Magpie wrote: I think most people got too attached to the idea of "_____ got unlucky that's all!" without realizing that a group shouldn't last 4-6 hours a day for the sake of an upset fanboy...
I think it's much more important to have a tournament structure with real integrity for the sake of the players trying to qualify for Blizzcon.
OSL had done bo1 for a really long time, so I think they would say their tournaments has enough "real integrity" for Blizzard.
On June 13 2013 21:59 opterown wrote: [quote] GOM is internet channel that runs less things than OGN, which means OGN has less time available for SC2
so as i said, "if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv..."
but they're not running a code S, they're running an OSL
then fuck them and fuck OSL, we want code S back.
Ah yes, Code S the home of one-and-dones such as Seed, Sniper and jjakji vs. OSL stomping grounds of the likes of Nada, oov, flash, JD, Jangbang, etc. The format does not make a tournament, the players and the game do.
not like OSL has had its weird winners too though
OSL doesnt really have weird winners. MSL is the one with the weird champions lol
Hello zerg maps.
I'd consider Mind and forGG as weird champions too. But yeah, forgg won due to maps. So I guess you have a point.
I'd consider all winners weird because they are not Bisu
All of them? But, but... does that mean Bisu has never won?
For me, the issue is more the fact that the other two WCS regions are running Bo3 while WCS KR will be Bo1. If they're labelled as the same tournament, they should have the same format.
so as i said, "if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv..."
but they're not running a code S, they're running an OSL
then fuck them and fuck OSL, we want code S back.
Ah yes, Code S the home of one-and-dones such as Seed, Sniper and jjakji vs. OSL stomping grounds of the likes of Nada, oov, flash, JD, Jangbang, etc. The format does not make a tournament, the players and the game do.
not like OSL has had its weird winners too though
OSL doesnt really have weird winners. MSL is the one with the weird champions lol
Hello zerg maps.
I'd consider Mind and forGG as weird champions too. But yeah, forgg won due to maps. So I guess you have a point.
I'd consider all winners weird because they are not Bisu
All of them? But, but... does that mean Bisu has never won?
That's my point. MSL clearly superior and much more normal.
so as i said, "if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv..."
but they're not running a code S, they're running an OSL
then fuck them and fuck OSL, we want code S back.
Ah yes, Code S the home of one-and-dones such as Seed, Sniper and jjakji vs. OSL stomping grounds of the likes of Nada, oov, flash, JD, Jangbang, etc. The format does not make a tournament, the players and the game do.
not like OSL has had its weird winners too though
OSL doesnt really have weird winners. MSL is the one with the weird champions lol
Hello zerg maps.
I'd consider Mind and forGG as weird champions too. But yeah, forgg won due to maps. So I guess you have a point.
I'd consider all winners weird because they are not Bisu
All of them? But, but... does that mean Bisu has never won?
... Bisu's won the MSL. lol. Come on guys. I could go on and on about Bisu and his slumps to his failures against hydra busts when it comes to final round of qualifiers lol.
On June 13 2013 22:02 opterown wrote: [quote] but they're not running a code S, they're running an OSL
then fuck them and fuck OSL, we want code S back.
Ah yes, Code S the home of one-and-dones such as Seed, Sniper and jjakji vs. OSL stomping grounds of the likes of Nada, oov, flash, JD, Jangbang, etc. The format does not make a tournament, the players and the game do.
not like OSL has had its weird winners too though
OSL doesnt really have weird winners. MSL is the one with the weird champions lol
Hello zerg maps.
I'd consider Mind and forGG as weird champions too. But yeah, forgg won due to maps. So I guess you have a point.
I'd consider all winners weird because they are not Bisu
All of them? But, but... does that mean Bisu has never won?
That's my point. MSL clearly superior and much more normal.
Wait what? Are we actually arguing the old MSL versus OSL? Oh my gosh the time warp! Are we really going to argue this?
On June 13 2013 22:02 opterown wrote: [quote] but they're not running a code S, they're running an OSL
then fuck them and fuck OSL, we want code S back.
Ah yes, Code S the home of one-and-dones such as Seed, Sniper and jjakji vs. OSL stomping grounds of the likes of Nada, oov, flash, JD, Jangbang, etc. The format does not make a tournament, the players and the game do.
not like OSL has had its weird winners too though
OSL doesnt really have weird winners. MSL is the one with the weird champions lol
Hello zerg maps.
I'd consider Mind and forGG as weird champions too. But yeah, forgg won due to maps. So I guess you have a point.
I'd consider all winners weird because they are not Bisu
All of them? But, but... does that mean Bisu has never won?
... Bisu's won the MSL. lol. Come on guys. I could go on and on about Bisu and his slumps to his failures against hydra busts when it comes to final round of qualifiers lol.
Ah yes, Code S the home of one-and-dones such as Seed, Sniper and jjakji vs. OSL stomping grounds of the likes of Nada, oov, flash, JD, Jangbang, etc. The format does not make a tournament, the players and the game do.
not like OSL has had its weird winners too though
OSL doesnt really have weird winners. MSL is the one with the weird champions lol
Hello zerg maps.
I'd consider Mind and forGG as weird champions too. But yeah, forgg won due to maps. So I guess you have a point.
I'd consider all winners weird because they are not Bisu
All of them? But, but... does that mean Bisu has never won?
That's my point. MSL clearly superior and much more normal.
Wait what? Are we actually arguing the old MSL versus OSL? Oh my gosh the time warp! Are we really going to argue this?
I just went there. The gauntlet has been dropped. And I cannot overstate how much more important it is we figure this out before we return to bitching about peacefully discussing the OSL vs GSL.
Ah yes, Code S the home of one-and-dones such as Seed, Sniper and jjakji vs. OSL stomping grounds of the likes of Nada, oov, flash, JD, Jangbang, etc. The format does not make a tournament, the players and the game do.
not like OSL has had its weird winners too though
OSL doesnt really have weird winners. MSL is the one with the weird champions lol
Hello zerg maps.
I'd consider Mind and forGG as weird champions too. But yeah, forgg won due to maps. So I guess you have a point.
I'd consider all winners weird because they are not Bisu
All of them? But, but... does that mean Bisu has never won?
... Bisu's won the MSL. lol. Come on guys. I could go on and on about Bisu and his slumps to his failures against hydra busts when it comes to final round of qualifiers lol.
On June 14 2013 02:41 BisuDagger wrote:
On June 14 2013 02:32 Vorenius wrote:
On June 14 2013 02:26 BisuDagger wrote:
On June 14 2013 01:45 sharkie wrote:
On June 14 2013 01:32 StarStruck wrote:
On June 14 2013 01:30 sharkie wrote:
On June 13 2013 22:18 opterown wrote:
On June 13 2013 22:15 trifecta wrote: [quote]
Ah yes, Code S the home of one-and-dones such as Seed, Sniper and jjakji vs. OSL stomping grounds of the likes of Nada, oov, flash, JD, Jangbang, etc. The format does not make a tournament, the players and the game do.
not like OSL has had its weird winners too though
OSL doesnt really have weird winners. MSL is the one with the weird champions lol
Hello zerg maps.
I'd consider Mind and forGG as weird champions too. But yeah, forgg won due to maps. So I guess you have a point.
I'd consider all winners weird because they are not Bisu
All of them? But, but... does that mean Bisu has never won?
That's my point. MSL clearly superior and much more normal.
Wait what? Are we actually arguing the old MSL versus OSL? Oh my gosh the time warp! Are we really going to argue this?
I just went there. The gauntlet has been dropped. And I cannot overstate how much more important it is we figure this out before we return to bitching about peacefully discussing the OSL vs GSL.
Bo1 gives better games because players need to practice for one map only (for each set). Since all the maps are decided beforehand, any given player will play at most 3 maps. The previous WCS Korea had map pool of 7 maps. So at most, any given player will play 7 maps. So Bo1 vs Bo3.. if players practice the same amount of time (which they should), their practice is simply much more focused and should result in a better gameplan for each map, and thus better games.
Ah yes, Code S the home of one-and-dones such as Seed, Sniper and jjakji vs. OSL stomping grounds of the likes of Nada, oov, flash, JD, Jangbang, etc. The format does not make a tournament, the players and the game do.
not like OSL has had its weird winners too though
OSL doesnt really have weird winners. MSL is the one with the weird champions lol
Hello zerg maps.
I'd consider Mind and forGG as weird champions too. But yeah, forgg won due to maps. So I guess you have a point.
I'd consider all winners weird because they are not Bisu
All of them? But, but... does that mean Bisu has never won?
... Bisu's won the MSL. lol. Come on guys. I could go on and on about Bisu and his slumps to his failures against hydra busts when it comes to final round of qualifiers lol.
On June 14 2013 02:41 BisuDagger wrote:
On June 14 2013 02:32 Vorenius wrote:
On June 14 2013 02:26 BisuDagger wrote:
On June 14 2013 01:45 sharkie wrote:
On June 14 2013 01:32 StarStruck wrote:
On June 14 2013 01:30 sharkie wrote:
On June 13 2013 22:18 opterown wrote: [quote] not like OSL has had its weird winners too though
OSL doesnt really have weird winners. MSL is the one with the weird champions lol
Hello zerg maps.
I'd consider Mind and forGG as weird champions too. But yeah, forgg won due to maps. So I guess you have a point.
I'd consider all winners weird because they are not Bisu
All of them? But, but... does that mean Bisu has never won?
That's my point. MSL clearly superior and much more normal.
Wait what? Are we actually arguing the old MSL versus OSL? Oh my gosh the time warp! Are we really going to argue this?
I just went there. The gauntlet has been dropped. And I cannot overstate how much more important it is we figure this out before we return to bitching about peacefully discussing the OSL vs GSL.
This is about to get hilariously interesting
EDIT:
I mean uh... boo MSL/OSL/GSL! Yay GSL/MSL/OSL!
Especially them GOMTV MSL's. In particular seasons 2 and 3. We can start with those. And maybe this will help those GOMers in their pro GSL arguments down the line.
Good news! This isn't the GSL. It's the OSL. You don't have to pay GOM for this season. Come to think of it, I don't know that you would want to - you can pull the audio and get the higher resolution OGN stream. From what I understand, GOM will be doing what OGN was doing for last season's Code S - streaming from a feed from OGN. (Yes, DoA and Montechristo were casting the GSL... from OGN studios. Never got many viewers. Khaldor referenced this on SotG today.)
You're not telling me anything I don't already know and also not care about. OGN's production of the first SC2 OSL was bad. OGN's production of the WCS Grand Final was bad. OGN's stream is NOT better than Gom's IMO because they zoom out the friggin game and leave black bars around the edges for no reason. Yeah, it's 1080p, but that means a little less when they don't actually let the game window fill the screen.
And I KNOW this isn't the GSL. That's the problem. That's what I'm saying. I want GSL back. Normally, THERE WOULD BE A GSL STARTING SOON. Now there isn't, because of whatever this crappy deal is between Gom and OGN and Blizzard and the WCS mess.
*Also, OGN not using the updated observer interfaces is spectacularly annoying after we've been seeing them in ALL tournaments for months now.
Well, guess what. You are not telling anything I don't know about people who has no clue of things before GSL. OSL suffered because of the shitstorm in Korea started by Blizzard, and I want OSL back in all its glory, including it's format. I don't give a shit about your pathetic sense of entitlement.
On June 13 2013 22:18 opterown wrote: [quote] not like OSL has had its weird winners too though
OSL doesnt really have weird winners. MSL is the one with the weird champions lol
Hello zerg maps.
I'd consider Mind and forGG as weird champions too. But yeah, forgg won due to maps. So I guess you have a point.
I'd consider all winners weird because they are not Bisu
All of them? But, but... does that mean Bisu has never won?
... Bisu's won the MSL. lol. Come on guys. I could go on and on about Bisu and his slumps to his failures against hydra busts when it comes to final round of qualifiers lol.
On June 14 2013 02:41 BisuDagger wrote:
On June 14 2013 02:32 Vorenius wrote:
On June 14 2013 02:26 BisuDagger wrote:
On June 14 2013 01:45 sharkie wrote:
On June 14 2013 01:32 StarStruck wrote:
On June 14 2013 01:30 sharkie wrote: [quote]
OSL doesnt really have weird winners. MSL is the one with the weird champions lol
Hello zerg maps.
I'd consider Mind and forGG as weird champions too. But yeah, forgg won due to maps. So I guess you have a point.
I'd consider all winners weird because they are not Bisu
All of them? But, but... does that mean Bisu has never won?
That's my point. MSL clearly superior and much more normal.
Wait what? Are we actually arguing the old MSL versus OSL? Oh my gosh the time warp! Are we really going to argue this?
I just went there. The gauntlet has been dropped. And I cannot overstate how much more important it is we figure this out before we return to bitching about peacefully discussing the OSL vs GSL.
This is about to get hilariously interesting
EDIT:
I mean uh... boo MSL/OSL/GSL! Yay GSL/MSL/OSL!
Especially them GOMTV MSL's. In particular seasons 2 and 3. We can start with those. And maybe this will help those GOMers in their pro GSL arguments down the line.
Only reason you say that is because Bisu won season 2. It's kind of funny you mention Season 3 considering people are bitching about Mind winning it. Oh the glory days of Bisu & the sadness that follows it.
On June 13 2013 21:59 opterown wrote: [quote] GOM is internet channel that runs less things than OGN, which means OGN has less time available for SC2
so as i said, "if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv..."
but they're not running a code S, they're running an OSL
then fuck them and fuck OSL, we want code S back.
Ah yes, Code S the home of one-and-dones such as Seed, Sniper and jjakji vs. OSL stomping grounds of the likes of Nada, oov, flash, JD, Jangbang, etc. The format does not make a tournament, the players and the game do.
not like OSL has had its weird winners too though
OSL doesnt really have weird winners. MSL is the one with the weird champions lol
Hello zerg maps.
I'd consider Mind and forGG as weird champions too. But yeah, forgg won due to maps. So I guess you have a point.
I'd consider all winners weird because they are not Bisu
Now we have a winner. Please close thread.
On June 14 2013 02:36 Aflixion wrote: For me, the issue is more the fact that the other two WCS regions are running Bo3 while WCS KR will be Bo1. If they're labelled as the same tournament, they should have the same format.
Er. So they all should be offline. Right? And you should fall from code a to b. Right?
so as i said, "if you cant cast a normal code S, then don't cast it. leave it to the big boys at gomtv..."
but they're not running a code S, they're running an OSL
then fuck them and fuck OSL, we want code S back.
Ah yes, Code S the home of one-and-dones such as Seed, Sniper and jjakji vs. OSL stomping grounds of the likes of Nada, oov, flash, JD, Jangbang, etc. The format does not make a tournament, the players and the game do.
not like OSL has had its weird winners too though
OSL doesnt really have weird winners. MSL is the one with the weird champions lol
Hello zerg maps.
I'd consider Mind and forGG as weird champions too. But yeah, forgg won due to maps. So I guess you have a point.
I'd consider all winners weird because they are not Bisu
On June 14 2013 02:36 Aflixion wrote: For me, the issue is more the fact that the other two WCS regions are running Bo3 while WCS KR will be Bo1. If they're labelled as the same tournament, they should have the same format.
Er. So they all should be offline. Right? And you should fall from code a to b. Right?
No, he's saying winning WCS NA should get a Code S Spot
On June 14 2013 03:13 Dakure wrote: Why are so many people so mad about Bo1?
Because so many people have never watched an OSL before. Really it's the only reason. People complaining about something they've never seen before. Fairly typical.
On June 14 2013 03:13 Dakure wrote: Why are so many people so mad about Bo1?
Because so many people have never watched an OSL before. Really it's the only reason. People complaining about something they've never seen before. Fairly typical.
but what they have seen was the RO32 BO1 GSLs in 2011, which generally were not that high quality, so they're assuming that BO1 OSL will be the same. i think it'll be alright
On June 13 2013 22:28 Penev wrote: Blizzard modeled the WCS after the GSL. Kinda strange that OGN thinks they can just change the format. Blizzard should intervene imo.
The tournament structure has been modeled off of GSL's Code S, Code A, and Code B system and is called Premier, Challenger, and Qualifier. This structure will run for all partners, including MLG and ESL. The Challenger events will run slightly differently in North America and Europe due to logistics in travel. Players will be able to move up and down within their own region as players do in GSL. Only the OSL will have differences, where there will be an additional Round of 32 added on played in a best-of-one format.
Blizzard agreed to this when they created WCS
Oh thanks. Didn't know that. Strange that they would agree with something like that. :/
Not that much. OSL can ask to do what they want (up until a certain limit I suppose) for running this, since they got quite an audience thanks to being on TV. (It'd be cool if we could have some numbers about this, but still, apart from Sweden, I don't think there is another country that has SC2 on TV...)
I think people forget that OSL is a major TV broadcast company in Korea. There is a limited amount of clout that Blizzard has with a company of that size. It would be like a Ubisoft trying to push around the BBC or CBS. Blizzard can't really force them to do anything and if they want to run their own format and that is the price for showing it on TV, Blizzard has to deal with that.
These sorts of deals are not made with "Its my way or the highway, take it or leave it" stances. That is not how business deals are made. If you try to act that way, you just burn bridges.
Plus OGN has a better card to deal with Blizzard, if you watch broadcasting content on OGN channel for all of week and prime times? SC2 is not Best Contents to guarantee viewers from position of OGN, they has LOL tournaments that the most popular Esports Content Currently that means they are not in desperate state than Blizzard But rather Blizzard wants more to OGN goes to broadcast on TV for promoting WCS in Korea since LOL is The No1 Esports contents in Korea and it made by powered of OGN that broadcasts TV channel to around of Korea
I guess it is a wait and see approach for me, however I know the players expressed they didn`t like bo1 in interviews last year when kespa players were transitioning. I know Rain said he preferred bo3 for SC2.
On June 14 2013 06:35 mango_destroyer wrote: I guess it is a wait and see approach for me, however I know the players expressed they didn`t like bo1 in interviews last year when kespa players were transitioning. I know Rain said he preferred bo3 for SC2.
The better the player the longer he wants the games.
More chances to learn, more chances to come back.
But do we really want that starting at the round of 32?
I see a lot posts here suggesting Blizzard to kick out OGN out of the loop for this. Blizzard wants SC2 to gain popularity in korea so I seriously doubt they are going to do that -_-
On June 14 2013 03:13 Dakure wrote: Why are so many people so mad about Bo1?
Because so many people have never watched an OSL before. Really it's the only reason. People complaining about something they've never seen before. Fairly typical.
you kidding me ? this is sc2 not bw . and bo1 is very bad ask any pro gamer what they prefere .
On June 14 2013 03:13 Dakure wrote: Why are so many people so mad about Bo1?
Because so many people have never watched an OSL before. Really it's the only reason. People complaining about something they've never seen before. Fairly typical.
but what they have seen was the RO32 BO1 GSLs in 2011, which generally were not that high quality, so they're assuming that BO1 OSL will be the same. i think it'll be alright
Well there was also that sc2 OSL we had roughly 1 year ago. We had the same uneasy complaints then too. OSL came and again, idk about the rest of you but I thought it was a very forgettable tournament.
Thankfully, the group stages didn't have any real upsets outside of San making it over Byun and Symbol and the Kespa side of things was still in a bit of a flux period but Rain, Flash, etc did make it at least.
However, the whole thing just felt totally underwhelming with less opportunities to see really good games. bo3+ at least gives two players more of an opportunity to adapt there play to their opponent and demonstrate varying levels of strategical depth. It tends to favor a more 3-dimensional player.
On June 14 2013 03:13 Dakure wrote: Why are so many people so mad about Bo1?
Because so many people have never watched an OSL before. Really it's the only reason. People complaining about something they've never seen before. Fairly typical.
but what they have seen was the RO32 BO1 GSLs in 2011, which generally were not that high quality, so they're assuming that BO1 OSL will be the same. i think it'll be alright
Well there was also that sc2 OSL we had roughly 1 year ago. We had the same uneasy complaints then too. OSL came and again, idk about the rest of you but I thought it was a very forgettable tournament.
Thankfully, the group stages didn't have any real upsets outside of San making it over Byun and Symbol and the Kespa side of things was still in a bit of a flux period but Rain, Flash, etc did make it at least.
However, the whole thing just felt totally underwhelming with less opportunities to see really good games. bo3+ at least gives two players more of an opportunity to adapt there play to their opponent and demonstrate varying levels of strategical depth. It tends to favor a more 3-dimensional player.
Its a philosophical difference in tournament structure.
Lots of games per round = everyone adapts to opponent: but usually leads to a subpar final because we already got to see the players adapting to opponents over 5 hour stretches in the round of 32.
Bo1 in the early rounds means Round of 32 is like watching a bunch of ladder games. You either were the better player, or you weren't.
By having both (Bo1 early and BoX late) we get to see players be cheesy and we get to see players be adaptive.
too much stupidity in this topic, some people seem to think bo1 is some sort of roll of the dice, but a great player losing game one to an inferior player and having to win two extra games in a row in a bo3 with the same possibility of cheeses / all ins / timings that can still hit them is different in some way. flash / soulkey / innovation etc. will probably just play safe and crush their groups regardless of what is thrown at them because they are simply better players than their opponents.
On June 14 2013 08:59 edgeOut wrote: Bo3 gives you boring games, BO1 no matter good or bad, will be exciting. Will love to see some big names get knocked out early.
It's also more impressive to consistently win a bunch of Bo1
People praise those types of players all the time, but they call them Ladder Heroes.
On June 14 2013 08:14 Emzeeshady wrote: Well about 8% more people approve of this then I had anticipated...
Newsflash: Team Liquid exists long before SC2
Thank you for this irrelevant news i already knew.
Then you'll probably figure out there is people that unlike you, have seen multiple times and can undersrand the merit of the OSL format.
We have seen BO1s all the time in SC2 including the last SC2 OSL. It isn't a matter of not getting the chance to see this format in action, it is just that we have and we disliked it.
On another note will GOM be streaming this along with OGN or are Tastosis sitting this one out?
How many times in the previous OSL was the better player knocked out through cheese in a Bo1? Gom will also be streaming with Tastosis.
I see a lot of people complaining that the format is different just because it's different. Bo1 is one thing, but why do people care if there are slight format variations? I see people saying not just Korea but all of WCS should all have identical formats and identical map pools. To me, that just screams bland, boring.. nothing to distinguish OSL from GSL, WCS is not one tournament. It's an association of tournaments under one system that ties together throughout the year. Variety is fine as long as it sticks to the basic framework.
On June 14 2013 08:14 Emzeeshady wrote: Well about 8% more people approve of this then I had anticipated...
Newsflash: Team Liquid exists long before SC2
Thank you for this irrelevant news i already knew.
Then you'll probably figure out there is people that unlike you, have seen multiple times and can undersrand the merit of the OSL format.
We have seen BO1s all the time in SC2 including the last SC2 OSL. It isn't a matter of not getting the chance to see this format in action, it is just that we have and we disliked it.
On another note will GOM be streaming this along with OGN or are Tastosis sitting this one out?
How many times in the previous OSL was the better player knocked out through cheese in a Bo1? Gom will also be streaming with Tastosis.
Idk, it is a little hard to tell because we didn't know how good a lot of the Kespa players were. All I remember was the games were terrible.
Bo1 doesn't magically make games bad. That makes zero sense. By that logic, you could say that Bo7 is stupid because a lot of GSL finals have been bad.
On June 14 2013 08:14 Emzeeshady wrote: Well about 8% more people approve of this then I had anticipated...
Newsflash: Team Liquid exists long before SC2
Thank you for this irrelevant news i already knew.
Then you'll probably figure out there is people that unlike you, have seen multiple times and can undersrand the merit of the OSL format.
We have seen BO1s all the time in SC2 including the last SC2 OSL. It isn't a matter of not getting the chance to see this format in action, it is just that we have and we disliked it.
On another note will GOM be streaming this along with OGN or are Tastosis sitting this one out?
How many times in the previous OSL was the better player knocked out through cheese in a Bo1? Gom will also be streaming with Tastosis.
Idk, it is a little hard to tell because we didn't know how good a lot of the Kespa players were. All I remember was the games were terrible.
Bo1 doesn't magically make games bad. That makes zero sense. By that logic, you could say that Bo7 is stupid because a lot of GSL finals have been bad.
It doesn't, they are just generally worse in my opinion (and apparently 91% of this forum).
I am obviously still going to give this season a chance, I am just really disappointed that we are three years into this game and some of the best players in the world could get eliminated in just two games from the most prestigious tournament there is (WCS KR).
Most people clearly aren't thinking about this rationally and are just going "Bo1 this is fucking stupid it's now COMPLETELY RANDOM who will make it through and everyone will just cheese and it's a coinflip."
I just want to say how horrible this is, and bs that logistics excuse is. And yes, I expect a lot of cheese, a lot of worse players going through, and a lot of Protoss players advancing.
Player A: "Man, Player B is better than I am. I should probably cheese him and give myself a chance to win!"
Player B: "Hah, this Player A guy is a chump. No way he can beat me in a macro game. I'll just play super safe from cheese and beat him with my superior everything else."
Player A: "But Player B probably knows I'm going to cheese him! He'll expect it and play super safe. All ins probably won't work either. I should just play incredibly greedy and try to use a mid game economic advantage to win this since he is so afraid of cheese."
Player B: "Hmmm, Player A will probably think I'll play super safe and go for a fast double expand to punish my super safe build. I should turn the tides on him and play super aggressive and punish him for thinking he can get away with a greedy build against me."
Player A: "Wait, Player B might know what I'm up to and kill me while I build my economy. I should just play safe, scout properly, and try my best..?"
Player B: "But what if Player A prepares well? My all in won't work and I'll have thrown away the game. I should just play safe and scout properly."
---
All this talk of cheese being prominent in Bo1's, I hope you have some stats to show that it's true. Proleague doesn't count because while games between individual players are Bo1, the entire match is a Bo7. The only reason it's logical and safe to throw in cheese is because it's a long series, and it's possible to recuperate from a failed cheese. Easy win or quick loss, either way it's still possible to win. In a Bo1 that isn't the case; lose that game and you're out. The above shows the kind of mind games involved in Bo1, and it's a lot more complex than "he's better, I should cheese him". If low level chumps like us can figure out that we should cheese, don't you think the pros know that too?
The argument that Bo1's have more cheese because it gives lesser players a bigger chance of winning fails to take into consideration the nature of a Bo1 and the mind games involved in it. Yes, cheese does give the lesser player a higher chance of winning compared to a standard game, but that is assuming that a standard game will be played by the better player (standard here includes standard scouting patterns that will often miss proxy locations). Best of Ones are so precious that taking a risk either way (going for cheese or not scouting comprehensively) weighs more than in a Best of Three. Some players may be worse than others, but they are all still pros and take these mind games into consideration.
So until someone shows some numbers on how often cheese occurs in a Best of One (not counting Proleague, as I explained above), insisting that it promotes cheese is purely conjecture.
On June 14 2013 08:59 edgeOut wrote: Bo3 gives you boring games, BO1 no matter good or bad, will be exciting. Will love to see some big names get knocked out early.
It's also more impressive to consistently win a bunch of Bo1
People praise those types of players all the time, but they call them Ladder Heroes.
its a shame that you think that, I'm sure you feel the same way about players who consistently do well in proleague/GSTL but cannot make it far in individual leagues.
Thank you for this irrelevant news i already knew.
Then you'll probably figure out there is people that unlike you, have seen multiple times and can undersrand the merit of the OSL format.
We have seen BO1s all the time in SC2 including the last SC2 OSL. It isn't a matter of not getting the chance to see this format in action, it is just that we have and we disliked it.
On another note will GOM be streaming this along with OGN or are Tastosis sitting this one out?
How many times in the previous OSL was the better player knocked out through cheese in a Bo1? Gom will also be streaming with Tastosis.
Idk, it is a little hard to tell because we didn't know how good a lot of the Kespa players were. All I remember was the games were terrible.
Bo1 doesn't magically make games bad. That makes zero sense. By that logic, you could say that Bo7 is stupid because a lot of GSL finals have been bad.
It doesn't, they are just generally worse in my opinion (and apparently 91% of this forum).
I am obviously still going to give this season a chance, I am just really disappointed that we are three years into this game and some of the best players in the world could get eliminated in just two games from the most prestigious tournament there is (WCS KR).
Most people clearly aren't thinking about this rationally and are just going "Bo1 this is fucking stupid it's now COMPLETELY RANDOM who will make it through and everyone will just cheese and it's a coinflip."
Now your exaggerating. Obviously it won't be completely random and every game won't necessarily be a cheese. There will probably be more randomness and cheesing though.
Even if the games don't turn out to be coin flippy or cheesy I still think that it is very unforgiving to be possibly eliminated after just two loses. I don't want to see my favourite players eliminated because they had 2 games where they didn't play their best and I doubt anyone else does either.
Not to say this will make the entire RO32 crap. I am sure it will be great, I just think it would be better with a different format.
thats just dumb. Not being able to grab wins on any given day shows their weakness. The best players are the strongest mentally. There isn't any excuse for not being able to perform unless they are physically limited by illness or broken arm or whatever. There are some things like deaths of loved ones that can affect players, but for everything else they need to be able to get past it. These people are professionals. If they can't deal with it, then they should look into a new career or stay a practice partner.
I'm not saying it doesn't suck when a favorite didn't win, but I won't blame the format if it is the player's inability to play his best is what caused him to lose.
Has there been any player reaction to the format? I am interested in how the view Bo1 series.
On June 14 2013 08:45 Emzeeshady wrote: [quote] Thank you for this irrelevant news i already knew.
Then you'll probably figure out there is people that unlike you, have seen multiple times and can undersrand the merit of the OSL format.
We have seen BO1s all the time in SC2 including the last SC2 OSL. It isn't a matter of not getting the chance to see this format in action, it is just that we have and we disliked it.
On another note will GOM be streaming this along with OGN or are Tastosis sitting this one out?
How many times in the previous OSL was the better player knocked out through cheese in a Bo1? Gom will also be streaming with Tastosis.
Idk, it is a little hard to tell because we didn't know how good a lot of the Kespa players were. All I remember was the games were terrible.
Bo1 doesn't magically make games bad. That makes zero sense. By that logic, you could say that Bo7 is stupid because a lot of GSL finals have been bad.
It doesn't, they are just generally worse in my opinion (and apparently 91% of this forum).
I am obviously still going to give this season a chance, I am just really disappointed that we are three years into this game and some of the best players in the world could get eliminated in just two games from the most prestigious tournament there is (WCS KR).
Most people clearly aren't thinking about this rationally and are just going "Bo1 this is fucking stupid it's now COMPLETELY RANDOM who will make it through and everyone will just cheese and it's a coinflip."
Now your exaggerating. Obviously it won't be completely random and every game won't necessarily be a cheese. There will probably be more randomness and cheesing though.
Even if the games don't turn out to be coin flippy or cheesy I still think that it is very unforgiving to be possibly eliminated after just two loses. I don't want to see my favourite players eliminated because they had 2 games where they didn't play their best and I doubt anyone else does either.
Not to say this will make the entire RO32 crap. I am sure it will be great, I just think it would be better with a different format.
thats just dumb. Not being able to grab wins on any given day shows their weakness. The best players are the strongest mentally. There isn't any excuse for not being able to perform unless they are physically limited by illness or broken arm or whatever. There are some things like deaths of loved ones that can affect players, but for everything else they need to be able to get past it. These people are professionals. If they can't deal with it, then they should look into a new career or stay a practice partner.
I'm not saying it doesn't suck when a favorite didn't win, but I won't blame the format if it is the player's inability to play his best is what caused him to lose.
Has there been any player reaction to the format? I am interested in how the view Bo1 series.
Only thing I've seen was Fantasy's interview from last night, he commented on it and said he prefers it because it'll give him a better chance at beating Life (only need to win 1 game instead of 2)
I would say group G is very tough because all 3 of those protosses (Yongwha, Parting, and Squirttle) are excellent PvPers and Supernova is kind of a protoss sniper.
I feel as though some people might be underestimating the firepower of group H.
Thank you for this irrelevant news i already knew.
Then you'll probably figure out there is people that unlike you, have seen multiple times and can undersrand the merit of the OSL format.
We have seen BO1s all the time in SC2 including the last SC2 OSL. It isn't a matter of not getting the chance to see this format in action, it is just that we have and we disliked it.
On another note will GOM be streaming this along with OGN or are Tastosis sitting this one out?
How many times in the previous OSL was the better player knocked out through cheese in a Bo1? Gom will also be streaming with Tastosis.
Idk, it is a little hard to tell because we didn't know how good a lot of the Kespa players were. All I remember was the games were terrible.
Bo1 doesn't magically make games bad. That makes zero sense. By that logic, you could say that Bo7 is stupid because a lot of GSL finals have been bad.
It doesn't, they are just generally worse in my opinion (and apparently 91% of this forum).
I am obviously still going to give this season a chance, I am just really disappointed that we are three years into this game and some of the best players in the world could get eliminated in just two games from the most prestigious tournament there is (WCS KR).
Most people clearly aren't thinking about this rationally and are just going "Bo1 this is fucking stupid it's now COMPLETELY RANDOM who will make it through and everyone will just cheese and it's a coinflip."
Now your exaggerating. Obviously it won't be completely random and every game won't necessarily be a cheese. There will probably be more randomness and cheesing though.
Even if the games don't turn out to be coin flippy or cheesy I still think that it is very unforgiving to be possibly eliminated after just two loses. I don't want to see my favourite players eliminated because they had 2 games where they didn't play their best and I doubt anyone else does either.
Not to say this will make the entire RO32 crap. I am sure it will be great, I just think it would be better with a different format.
Not exaggerating at all. Some people have literally said that it's now completely random who'll make it through. What about last MLG? Not only was it lose 3 games and you're out, but you only played one person, so if you had a bad match up (Minigun vs Life?) you were just out right away. What about code A? If you lose two games then you're out, and if it's in the Ro48, then you have to go through the prelims, where again if you lose two games then you're out.
It's just the way some things are, and it's the way the OSL has always been. Nobody ever complained about it during Brood War, but since people are used to something different in Starcraft 2, they all freak out about it with absolutely no rationale beyond "It didn't work in 2011" and "The last OSL was bad".
Who wins out of Innovation, Flash, Life, Rain, Soulkey? Most stacked Code S in a while ~ particularly cos each of the top 10 (NO NOT YOU HERO) should make it ro16 for the round robin bo3's.... sickkkkk ciiiittttyyyyyy
On June 14 2013 16:19 Arceus wrote: look like Round of 32 will feature on three maps: Bel'Shir Vestige, Newkirk Remix & Whirlwind It's said to reduce players' burden. Fuck
What? So I'm guessing the opening map will be Bel'Shir Vestige, the loser's/winner's match will be Newkirk, and the final match will be on Whirlwind?
All this talk about playing safe as if the skill difference between most of these players is so enormous. Terran is not a reactive race like zerg. If you want to be safe you pretty much have to play safe from the start and give some things. Player A (the better player) will not just auto win in a macro game against player B (the worse player) if player A plays super safe and player B plays greedy. Nobody is that dominant. Thats why there is an element of gamble in bo1 and most of us just think that all of the players work to damn hard to have to settle for a bo1. Thats from the players perspective im thinking now. Dont forget that this is sc2, not bw. Its kind of important to understand that they are different games ^^
From a entertainment perspective I do agree that bo1 makes for more excitement per game and more on the line. It can also produce some cool carefully tailored builds and a chance for a underdog to break through. One of the best things about bo1 is that the show will not last 5 hours, because honestly its not reasonable to have 5 hour show 3-4 days a week. As a spectator and a big fan of e-sports I love watching sc2 but in the future we have to come up with a system that allows for a fair tournament structure for the players and reasonable hours for the spectators.
On June 14 2013 16:19 Arceus wrote: look like Round of 32 will feature on three maps: Bel'Shir Vestige, Newkirk Remix & Whirlwind It's said to reduce players' burden. Fuck
What? So I'm guessing the opening map will be Bel'Shir Vestige, the loser's/winner's match will be Newkirk, and the final match will be on Whirlwind?
On June 14 2013 16:19 Arceus wrote: look like Round of 32 will feature on three maps: Bel'Shir Vestige, Newkirk Remix & Whirlwind It's said to reduce players' burden. Fuck
What? So I'm guessing the opening map will be Bel'Shir Vestige, the loser's/winner's match will be Newkirk, and the final match will be on Whirlwind?
Uh ? How so, it is Bo1...
1 <Bel'Shir> 2 3 <Bel'Shir> 4 Winner of match 1 <Newkirk> Winner of match 2 Loser of match 1 <Newkirk> Loser of match 2 Loser of winner's match <Whirlwind> Winner of loser's match
On June 14 2013 16:19 Arceus wrote: look like Round of 32 will feature on three maps: Bel'Shir Vestige, Newkirk Remix & Whirlwind It's said to reduce players' burden. Fuck
What? So I'm guessing the opening map will be Bel'Shir Vestige, the loser's/winner's match will be Newkirk, and the final match will be on Whirlwind?
On June 14 2013 08:45 Emzeeshady wrote: [quote] Thank you for this irrelevant news i already knew.
Then you'll probably figure out there is people that unlike you, have seen multiple times and can undersrand the merit of the OSL format.
We have seen BO1s all the time in SC2 including the last SC2 OSL. It isn't a matter of not getting the chance to see this format in action, it is just that we have and we disliked it.
On another note will GOM be streaming this along with OGN or are Tastosis sitting this one out?
How many times in the previous OSL was the better player knocked out through cheese in a Bo1? Gom will also be streaming with Tastosis.
Idk, it is a little hard to tell because we didn't know how good a lot of the Kespa players were. All I remember was the games were terrible.
Bo1 doesn't magically make games bad. That makes zero sense. By that logic, you could say that Bo7 is stupid because a lot of GSL finals have been bad.
It doesn't, they are just generally worse in my opinion (and apparently 91% of this forum).
I am obviously still going to give this season a chance, I am just really disappointed that we are three years into this game and some of the best players in the world could get eliminated in just two games from the most prestigious tournament there is (WCS KR).
Most people clearly aren't thinking about this rationally and are just going "Bo1 this is fucking stupid it's now COMPLETELY RANDOM who will make it through and everyone will just cheese and it's a coinflip."
Now your exaggerating. Obviously it won't be completely random and every game won't necessarily be a cheese. There will probably be more randomness and cheesing though.
Even if the games don't turn out to be coin flippy or cheesy I still think that it is very unforgiving to be possibly eliminated after just two loses. I don't want to see my favourite players eliminated because they had 2 games where they didn't play their best and I doubt anyone else does either.
Not to say this will make the entire RO32 crap. I am sure it will be great, I just think it would be better with a different format.
Not exaggerating at all. Some people have literally said that it's now completely random who'll make it through. What about last MLG? Not only was it lose 3 games and you're out, but you only played one person, so if you had a bad match up (Minigun vs Life?) you were just out right away. What about code A? If you lose two games then you're out, and if it's in the Ro48, then you have to go through the prelims, where again if you lose two games then you're out.
It's just the way some things are, and it's the way the OSL has always been. Nobody ever complained about it during Brood War, but since people are used to something different in Starcraft 2, they all freak out about it with absolutely no rationale beyond "It didn't work in 2011" and "The last OSL was bad".
You complain about people who exaggerate and then go on to say the bolded sentence yourself. Hypocrisy much? Especially since your only argument is "it's always been like this in BW".
The rationale, as has been many times stated, is that a sequence of Bo1 makes the more skilled player somewhat more vulnerable to allins/cheese. Of course most of the time the more skilled player will make it through, but Bo1 definitely increases the chances for a cheeser to get through or a lesser player upsetting a championship candidate too easily. That wouldn't be too bad if it was just for some nostalgic Starleague, but this replaces basically the GSL S3, so of course we hold it to a higher standard than if it just was an OSL. You also have to consider that this acts as a qualifier for the next season of WCS, so their messup potentially affects the next season too. That's why a lot of us are upset at this and express their concerns...
On June 14 2013 12:47 usethis2 wrote: It hurts my eyes to see Symbol in code S.
Yeah, being amongst the few zerg that even took games from INnoVatioN is completely irrelevant. Guy must be bad as hell.
Seriously...
On June 14 2013 16:26 juicyjames wrote:
On June 14 2013 16:19 Arceus wrote: look like Round of 32 will feature on three maps: Bel'Shir Vestige, Newkirk Remix & Whirlwind It's said to reduce players' burden. Fuck
What? So I'm guessing the opening map will be Bel'Shir Vestige, the loser's/winner's match will be Newkirk, and the final match will be on Whirlwind?
Then you'll probably figure out there is people that unlike you, have seen multiple times and can undersrand the merit of the OSL format.
We have seen BO1s all the time in SC2 including the last SC2 OSL. It isn't a matter of not getting the chance to see this format in action, it is just that we have and we disliked it.
On another note will GOM be streaming this along with OGN or are Tastosis sitting this one out?
How many times in the previous OSL was the better player knocked out through cheese in a Bo1? Gom will also be streaming with Tastosis.
Idk, it is a little hard to tell because we didn't know how good a lot of the Kespa players were. All I remember was the games were terrible.
Bo1 doesn't magically make games bad. That makes zero sense. By that logic, you could say that Bo7 is stupid because a lot of GSL finals have been bad.
It doesn't, they are just generally worse in my opinion (and apparently 91% of this forum).
I am obviously still going to give this season a chance, I am just really disappointed that we are three years into this game and some of the best players in the world could get eliminated in just two games from the most prestigious tournament there is (WCS KR).
Most people clearly aren't thinking about this rationally and are just going "Bo1 this is fucking stupid it's now COMPLETELY RANDOM who will make it through and everyone will just cheese and it's a coinflip."
Now your exaggerating. Obviously it won't be completely random and every game won't necessarily be a cheese. There will probably be more randomness and cheesing though.
Even if the games don't turn out to be coin flippy or cheesy I still think that it is very unforgiving to be possibly eliminated after just two loses. I don't want to see my favourite players eliminated because they had 2 games where they didn't play their best and I doubt anyone else does either.
Not to say this will make the entire RO32 crap. I am sure it will be great, I just think it would be better with a different format.
Not exaggerating at all. Some people have literally said that it's now completely random who'll make it through. What about last MLG? Not only was it lose 3 games and you're out, but you only played one person, so if you had a bad match up (Minigun vs Life?) you were just out right away. What about code A? If you lose two games then you're out, and if it's in the Ro48, then you have to go through the prelims, where again if you lose two games then you're out.
It's just the way some things are, and it's the way the OSL has always been. Nobody ever complained about it during Brood War, but since people are used to something different in Starcraft 2, they all freak out about it with absolutely no rationale beyond "It didn't work in 2011" and "The last OSL was bad".
You complain about people who exaggerate and then go on to say the bolded sentence yourself. Hypocrisy much? Especially since your only argument is "it's always been like this in BW", lol.
The rationale, as has been many times stated, is that a sequence of Bo1 makes the more skilled player somewhat more vulnerable to allins/cheese. Of course most of the time the more skilled player will make it through, but Bo1 greatly increases the chances for a cheeser to get through or a lesser player upsetting a championship candidate too easily. That wouldn't be too bad if it was just for some nostalgic Starleague, but this replaces basically the GSL S3, so of course we hold it to a higher standard than if it just was an OSL. You also have to consider that this acts as a qualifier for the next season of WCS, so their messup potentially affects the next season too. That's why a lot of us are upset at this and express their concerns...
Well since you are a German, let me quote this "The strong one doesn't win, the one that wins is strong".
Sure the BO1 might make game more prone to cheese or all-in but everyone is under the same condition, with the same amount of time to prepare for the group and series. If cheese/all-in would be more prominent in this kind of format, then a player who know how to prepare both reading the build and the counter of each build more would win. And that itself is also a skill.
So the player who wins deserve it regardless of whether it is BO1 or BO3. It's just different, which is not bad and make things fresher.
Then you'll probably figure out there is people that unlike you, have seen multiple times and can undersrand the merit of the OSL format.
We have seen BO1s all the time in SC2 including the last SC2 OSL. It isn't a matter of not getting the chance to see this format in action, it is just that we have and we disliked it.
On another note will GOM be streaming this along with OGN or are Tastosis sitting this one out?
How many times in the previous OSL was the better player knocked out through cheese in a Bo1? Gom will also be streaming with Tastosis.
Idk, it is a little hard to tell because we didn't know how good a lot of the Kespa players were. All I remember was the games were terrible.
Bo1 doesn't magically make games bad. That makes zero sense. By that logic, you could say that Bo7 is stupid because a lot of GSL finals have been bad.
It doesn't, they are just generally worse in my opinion (and apparently 91% of this forum).
I am obviously still going to give this season a chance, I am just really disappointed that we are three years into this game and some of the best players in the world could get eliminated in just two games from the most prestigious tournament there is (WCS KR).
Most people clearly aren't thinking about this rationally and are just going "Bo1 this is fucking stupid it's now COMPLETELY RANDOM who will make it through and everyone will just cheese and it's a coinflip."
Now your exaggerating. Obviously it won't be completely random and every game won't necessarily be a cheese. There will probably be more randomness and cheesing though.
Even if the games don't turn out to be coin flippy or cheesy I still think that it is very unforgiving to be possibly eliminated after just two loses. I don't want to see my favourite players eliminated because they had 2 games where they didn't play their best and I doubt anyone else does either.
Not to say this will make the entire RO32 crap. I am sure it will be great, I just think it would be better with a different format.
Not exaggerating at all. Some people have literally said that it's now completely random who'll make it through. What about last MLG? Not only was it lose 3 games and you're out, but you only played one person, so if you had a bad match up (Minigun vs Life?) you were just out right away. What about code A? If you lose two games then you're out, and if it's in the Ro48, then you have to go through the prelims, where again if you lose two games then you're out.
It's just the way some things are, and it's the way the OSL has always been. Nobody ever complained about it during Brood War, but since people are used to something different in Starcraft 2, they all freak out about it with absolutely no rationale beyond "It didn't work in 2011" and "The last OSL was bad".
You complain about people who exaggerate and then go on to say the bolded sentence yourself. Hypocrisy much? Especially since your only argument is "it's always been like this in BW", lol.
The rationale, as has been many times stated, is that a sequence of Bo1 makes the more skilled player somewhat more vulnerable to allins/cheese. Of course most of the time the more skilled player will make it through, but Bo1 greatly increases the chances for a cheeser to get through or a lesser player upsetting a championship candidate too easily. That wouldn't be too bad if it was just for some nostalgic Starleague, but this replaces basically the GSL S3, so of course we hold it to a higher standard than if it just was an OSL. You also have to consider that this acts as a qualifier for the next season of WCS, so their messup potentially affects the next season too. That's why a lot of us are upset at this and express their concerns...
Replace greatly by slightly, and then we could start talking about rationality...
On June 14 2013 12:47 usethis2 wrote: It hurts my eyes to see Symbol in code S.
Yeah, being amongst the few zerg that even took games from INnoVatioN is completely irrelevant. Guy must be bad as hell.
Seriously...
On June 14 2013 16:26 juicyjames wrote:
On June 14 2013 16:19 Arceus wrote: look like Round of 32 will feature on three maps: Bel'Shir Vestige, Newkirk Remix & Whirlwind It's said to reduce players' burden. Fuck
What? So I'm guessing the opening map will be Bel'Shir Vestige, the loser's/winner's match will be Newkirk, and the final match will be on Whirlwind?
Probably that. Maybe people complain about not enough time to prepare for Gwanghalli/Anaconda. While 3-map OSL is not strange, I'd love to see at least one new map They will be added in later rounds though
On June 14 2013 16:19 Arceus wrote: look like Round of 32 will feature on three maps: Bel'Shir Vestige, Newkirk Remix & Whirlwind It's said to reduce players' burden. Fuck
What? So I'm guessing the opening map will be Bel'Shir Vestige, the loser's/winner's match will be Newkirk, and the final match will be on Whirlwind?
Then you'll probably figure out there is people that unlike you, have seen multiple times and can undersrand the merit of the OSL format.
We have seen BO1s all the time in SC2 including the last SC2 OSL. It isn't a matter of not getting the chance to see this format in action, it is just that we have and we disliked it.
On another note will GOM be streaming this along with OGN or are Tastosis sitting this one out?
How many times in the previous OSL was the better player knocked out through cheese in a Bo1? Gom will also be streaming with Tastosis.
Idk, it is a little hard to tell because we didn't know how good a lot of the Kespa players were. All I remember was the games were terrible.
Bo1 doesn't magically make games bad. That makes zero sense. By that logic, you could say that Bo7 is stupid because a lot of GSL finals have been bad.
It doesn't, they are just generally worse in my opinion (and apparently 91% of this forum).
I am obviously still going to give this season a chance, I am just really disappointed that we are three years into this game and some of the best players in the world could get eliminated in just two games from the most prestigious tournament there is (WCS KR).
Most people clearly aren't thinking about this rationally and are just going "Bo1 this is fucking stupid it's now COMPLETELY RANDOM who will make it through and everyone will just cheese and it's a coinflip."
Now your exaggerating. Obviously it won't be completely random and every game won't necessarily be a cheese. There will probably be more randomness and cheesing though.
Even if the games don't turn out to be coin flippy or cheesy I still think that it is very unforgiving to be possibly eliminated after just two loses. I don't want to see my favourite players eliminated because they had 2 games where they didn't play their best and I doubt anyone else does either.
Not to say this will make the entire RO32 crap. I am sure it will be great, I just think it would be better with a different format.
Not exaggerating at all. Some people have literally said that it's now completely random who'll make it through. What about last MLG? Not only was it lose 3 games and you're out, but you only played one person, so if you had a bad match up (Minigun vs Life?) you were just out right away. What about code A? If you lose two games then you're out, and if it's in the Ro48, then you have to go through the prelims, where again if you lose two games then you're out.
It's just the way some things are, and it's the way the OSL has always been. Nobody ever complained about it during Brood War, but since people are used to something different in Starcraft 2, they all freak out about it with absolutely no rationale beyond "It didn't work in 2011" and "The last OSL was bad".
You complain about people who exaggerate and then go on to say the bolded sentence yourself. Hypocrisy much? Especially since your only argument is "it's always been like this in BW", lol.
The rationale, as has been many times stated, is that a sequence of Bo1 makes the more skilled player somewhat more vulnerable to allins/cheese. Of course most of the time the more skilled player will make it through, but Bo1 greatly increases the chances for a cheeser to get through or a lesser player upsetting a championship candidate too easily. That wouldn't be too bad if it was just for some nostalgic Starleague, but this replaces basically the GSL S3, so of course we hold it to a higher standard than if it just was an OSL. You also have to consider that this acts as a qualifier for the next season of WCS, so their messup potentially affects the next season too. That's why a lot of us are upset at this and express their concerns...
Not only did I not complain about people who exaggerate, but that sentence wasn't an exaggeration...? What are you talking about?
You claim that a Bo1 instead of a Bo3 will greatly increase the chances for a cheeser/weaker player to get through. Where are your stats for this? From what I've seen, it'll maybe be a 10% difference. Incidentally, many people aren't even saying this; they simply angrily exclaim that it's bullshit, they hate OGN, it'll just be random who gets through, etc.
PS: responding to my argument that it's worked for 13 years with "lol" isn't particularly persuasive.
On June 14 2013 16:19 Arceus wrote: look like Round of 32 will feature on three maps: Bel'Shir Vestige, Newkirk Remix & Whirlwind It's said to reduce players' burden. Fuck
What? So I'm guessing the opening map will be Bel'Shir Vestige, the loser's/winner's match will be Newkirk, and the final match will be on Whirlwind?
On June 14 2013 09:17 Emzeeshady wrote: [quote] We have seen BO1s all the time in SC2 including the last SC2 OSL. It isn't a matter of not getting the chance to see this format in action, it is just that we have and we disliked it.
On another note will GOM be streaming this along with OGN or are Tastosis sitting this one out?
How many times in the previous OSL was the better player knocked out through cheese in a Bo1? Gom will also be streaming with Tastosis.
Idk, it is a little hard to tell because we didn't know how good a lot of the Kespa players were. All I remember was the games were terrible.
Bo1 doesn't magically make games bad. That makes zero sense. By that logic, you could say that Bo7 is stupid because a lot of GSL finals have been bad.
It doesn't, they are just generally worse in my opinion (and apparently 91% of this forum).
I am obviously still going to give this season a chance, I am just really disappointed that we are three years into this game and some of the best players in the world could get eliminated in just two games from the most prestigious tournament there is (WCS KR).
Most people clearly aren't thinking about this rationally and are just going "Bo1 this is fucking stupid it's now COMPLETELY RANDOM who will make it through and everyone will just cheese and it's a coinflip."
Now your exaggerating. Obviously it won't be completely random and every game won't necessarily be a cheese. There will probably be more randomness and cheesing though.
Even if the games don't turn out to be coin flippy or cheesy I still think that it is very unforgiving to be possibly eliminated after just two loses. I don't want to see my favourite players eliminated because they had 2 games where they didn't play their best and I doubt anyone else does either.
Not to say this will make the entire RO32 crap. I am sure it will be great, I just think it would be better with a different format.
Not exaggerating at all. Some people have literally said that it's now completely random who'll make it through. What about last MLG? Not only was it lose 3 games and you're out, but you only played one person, so if you had a bad match up (Minigun vs Life?) you were just out right away. What about code A? If you lose two games then you're out, and if it's in the Ro48, then you have to go through the prelims, where again if you lose two games then you're out.
It's just the way some things are, and it's the way the OSL has always been. Nobody ever complained about it during Brood War, but since people are used to something different in Starcraft 2, they all freak out about it with absolutely no rationale beyond "It didn't work in 2011" and "The last OSL was bad".
You complain about people who exaggerate and then go on to say the bolded sentence yourself. Hypocrisy much? Especially since your only argument is "it's always been like this in BW", lol.
The rationale, as has been many times stated, is that a sequence of Bo1 makes the more skilled player somewhat more vulnerable to allins/cheese. Of course most of the time the more skilled player will make it through, but Bo1 greatly increases the chances for a cheeser to get through or a lesser player upsetting a championship candidate too easily. That wouldn't be too bad if it was just for some nostalgic Starleague, but this replaces basically the GSL S3, so of course we hold it to a higher standard than if it just was an OSL. You also have to consider that this acts as a qualifier for the next season of WCS, so their messup potentially affects the next season too. That's why a lot of us are upset at this and express their concerns...
Not only did I not complain about people who exaggerate, but that sentence wasn't an exaggeration...? What are you talking about?
You claim that a Bo1 instead of a Bo3 will greatly increase the chances for a cheeser/weaker player to get through. Where are your stats for this? From what I've seen, it'll maybe be a 10% difference. Incidentally, many people aren't even saying this; they simply angrily exclaim that it's bullshit, they hate OGN, it'll just be random who gets through, etc.
PS: responding to my argument that it's worked for 13 years with "lol" isn't particularly persuasive.
You want 'stats' that show that in a bo1 the weaker player is more likely to win than in a bo3? This doesnt make sense. It is obvious that in a single game as opposed to a bo series of games the weaker player has more chance to win. This is basic mathematics and akin to asking for 'stats' to show that 2+2 =4.
On June 14 2013 16:19 Arceus wrote: look like Round of 32 will feature on three maps: Bel'Shir Vestige, Newkirk Remix & Whirlwind It's said to reduce players' burden. Fuck
What? So I'm guessing the opening map will be Bel'Shir Vestige, the loser's/winner's match will be Newkirk, and the final match will be on Whirlwind?
Only ladder maps will be used for the Ro32, while the new OSL-exclusive maps will be introduced in the Ro16. Not surprised, in the past, they have only used the KeSPA maps for the ODT stage and introduced the OMT maps once the Ro16 commenced.
On June 14 2013 16:19 Arceus wrote: look like Round of 32 will feature on three maps: Bel'Shir Vestige, Newkirk Remix & Whirlwind It's said to reduce players' burden. Fuck
What? So I'm guessing the opening map will be Bel'Shir Vestige, the loser's/winner's match will be Newkirk, and the final match will be on Whirlwind?
Only ladder maps will be used for the Ro32, while the new OSL-exclusive maps will be introduced in the Ro16. Not surprised, in the past, they have only used the KeSPA maps for the ODT stage and introduced the OMT maps once the Ro16 commenced.
On June 14 2013 16:19 Arceus wrote: look like Round of 32 will feature on three maps: Bel'Shir Vestige, Newkirk Remix & Whirlwind It's said to reduce players' burden. Fuck
What? So I'm guessing the opening map will be Bel'Shir Vestige, the loser's/winner's match will be Newkirk, and the final match will be on Whirlwind?
Only ladder maps will be used for the Ro32, while the new OSL-exclusive maps will be introduced in the Ro16. Not surprised, in the past, they have only used the KeSPA maps for the ODT stage and introduced the OMT maps once the Ro16 commenced.
On June 14 2013 09:17 Emzeeshady wrote: [quote] We have seen BO1s all the time in SC2 including the last SC2 OSL. It isn't a matter of not getting the chance to see this format in action, it is just that we have and we disliked it.
On another note will GOM be streaming this along with OGN or are Tastosis sitting this one out?
How many times in the previous OSL was the better player knocked out through cheese in a Bo1? Gom will also be streaming with Tastosis.
Idk, it is a little hard to tell because we didn't know how good a lot of the Kespa players were. All I remember was the games were terrible.
Bo1 doesn't magically make games bad. That makes zero sense. By that logic, you could say that Bo7 is stupid because a lot of GSL finals have been bad.
It doesn't, they are just generally worse in my opinion (and apparently 91% of this forum).
I am obviously still going to give this season a chance, I am just really disappointed that we are three years into this game and some of the best players in the world could get eliminated in just two games from the most prestigious tournament there is (WCS KR).
Most people clearly aren't thinking about this rationally and are just going "Bo1 this is fucking stupid it's now COMPLETELY RANDOM who will make it through and everyone will just cheese and it's a coinflip."
Now your exaggerating. Obviously it won't be completely random and every game won't necessarily be a cheese. There will probably be more randomness and cheesing though.
Even if the games don't turn out to be coin flippy or cheesy I still think that it is very unforgiving to be possibly eliminated after just two loses. I don't want to see my favourite players eliminated because they had 2 games where they didn't play their best and I doubt anyone else does either.
Not to say this will make the entire RO32 crap. I am sure it will be great, I just think it would be better with a different format.
Not exaggerating at all. Some people have literally said that it's now completely random who'll make it through. What about last MLG? Not only was it lose 3 games and you're out, but you only played one person, so if you had a bad match up (Minigun vs Life?) you were just out right away. What about code A? If you lose two games then you're out, and if it's in the Ro48, then you have to go through the prelims, where again if you lose two games then you're out.
It's just the way some things are, and it's the way the OSL has always been. Nobody ever complained about it during Brood War, but since people are used to something different in Starcraft 2, they all freak out about it with absolutely no rationale beyond "It didn't work in 2011" and "The last OSL was bad".
You complain about people who exaggerate and then go on to say the bolded sentence yourself. Hypocrisy much? Especially since your only argument is "it's always been like this in BW", lol.
The rationale, as has been many times stated, is that a sequence of Bo1 makes the more skilled player somewhat more vulnerable to allins/cheese. Of course most of the time the more skilled player will make it through, but Bo1 greatly increases the chances for a cheeser to get through or a lesser player upsetting a championship candidate too easily. That wouldn't be too bad if it was just for some nostalgic Starleague, but this replaces basically the GSL S3, so of course we hold it to a higher standard than if it just was an OSL. You also have to consider that this acts as a qualifier for the next season of WCS, so their messup potentially affects the next season too. That's why a lot of us are upset at this and express their concerns...
Not only did I not complain about people who exaggerate, but that sentence wasn't an exaggeration...? What are you talking about?
You claim that a Bo1 instead of a Bo3 will greatly increase the chances for a cheeser/weaker player to get through. Where are your stats for this? From what I've seen, it'll maybe be a 10% difference. Incidentally, many people aren't even saying this; they simply angrily exclaim that it's bullshit, they hate OGN, it'll just be random who gets through, etc.
PS: responding to my argument that it's worked for 13 years with "lol" isn't particularly persuasive.
Sorry if the "lol" offended you, I edited it out I personally just find the line of argumentation of "we have always done it that way" or "it is tradition" never convincing at all (considering we are talking about completely different games).
What I meant is: People complain that this will mean "complete randomness" (which is an exaggeration) which you critize and go on to say that we critics "all freak out about it with absolutely no rationale" (which is also an exaggeration). Here you are being hypocritical...
The ~10% came from an Aligulac estimation, which does not take the mind games and BO gambles of a BoX series into consideration at all, which makes it basically impossible to put a hard number on this. But even if we believe the ~10%, in a whole group with a losers bracket, so a sequence of events, this increases the likelyhood of an "undeserving" player (I'm aware this is a vague term, yet I think most will know what I mean) quite a bit, even though 10% doesn't sound like a lot. To me, it just means an unnecessary increase in volatility/randomness.
The only argument for the Bo1 that I buy into is the one by BlindRawr, that a TV production puts some more limits on it, regarding time etc. I don't have any experience with this, and here their 13 years of experience come into play, and we just have to trust them - yet still the fundamental flaws of Bo1 remain, which is all I'm critizising.
How many times in the previous OSL was the better player knocked out through cheese in a Bo1? Gom will also be streaming with Tastosis.
Idk, it is a little hard to tell because we didn't know how good a lot of the Kespa players were. All I remember was the games were terrible.
Bo1 doesn't magically make games bad. That makes zero sense. By that logic, you could say that Bo7 is stupid because a lot of GSL finals have been bad.
It doesn't, they are just generally worse in my opinion (and apparently 91% of this forum).
I am obviously still going to give this season a chance, I am just really disappointed that we are three years into this game and some of the best players in the world could get eliminated in just two games from the most prestigious tournament there is (WCS KR).
Most people clearly aren't thinking about this rationally and are just going "Bo1 this is fucking stupid it's now COMPLETELY RANDOM who will make it through and everyone will just cheese and it's a coinflip."
Now your exaggerating. Obviously it won't be completely random and every game won't necessarily be a cheese. There will probably be more randomness and cheesing though.
Even if the games don't turn out to be coin flippy or cheesy I still think that it is very unforgiving to be possibly eliminated after just two loses. I don't want to see my favourite players eliminated because they had 2 games where they didn't play their best and I doubt anyone else does either.
Not to say this will make the entire RO32 crap. I am sure it will be great, I just think it would be better with a different format.
Not exaggerating at all. Some people have literally said that it's now completely random who'll make it through. What about last MLG? Not only was it lose 3 games and you're out, but you only played one person, so if you had a bad match up (Minigun vs Life?) you were just out right away. What about code A? If you lose two games then you're out, and if it's in the Ro48, then you have to go through the prelims, where again if you lose two games then you're out.
It's just the way some things are, and it's the way the OSL has always been. Nobody ever complained about it during Brood War, but since people are used to something different in Starcraft 2, they all freak out about it with absolutely no rationale beyond "It didn't work in 2011" and "The last OSL was bad".
You complain about people who exaggerate and then go on to say the bolded sentence yourself. Hypocrisy much? Especially since your only argument is "it's always been like this in BW", lol.
The rationale, as has been many times stated, is that a sequence of Bo1 makes the more skilled player somewhat more vulnerable to allins/cheese. Of course most of the time the more skilled player will make it through, but Bo1 greatly increases the chances for a cheeser to get through or a lesser player upsetting a championship candidate too easily. That wouldn't be too bad if it was just for some nostalgic Starleague, but this replaces basically the GSL S3, so of course we hold it to a higher standard than if it just was an OSL. You also have to consider that this acts as a qualifier for the next season of WCS, so their messup potentially affects the next season too. That's why a lot of us are upset at this and express their concerns...
Not only did I not complain about people who exaggerate, but that sentence wasn't an exaggeration...? What are you talking about?
You claim that a Bo1 instead of a Bo3 will greatly increase the chances for a cheeser/weaker player to get through. Where are your stats for this? From what I've seen, it'll maybe be a 10% difference. Incidentally, many people aren't even saying this; they simply angrily exclaim that it's bullshit, they hate OGN, it'll just be random who gets through, etc.
PS: responding to my argument that it's worked for 13 years with "lol" isn't particularly persuasive.
You want 'stats' that show that in a bo1 the weaker player is more likely to win than in a bo3? This doesnt make sense. It is obvious that in a single game as opposed to a bo series of games the weaker player has more chance to win. This is basic mathematics and akin to asking for 'stats' to show that 2+2 =4.
No, I said I wanted stats to show that it greatly increases their chances. I said right there in my post that the weaker player has a better chance in a Bo1.
On June 14 2013 09:52 Emzeeshady wrote: [quote] Idk, it is a little hard to tell because we didn't know how good a lot of the Kespa players were. All I remember was the games were terrible.
Bo1 doesn't magically make games bad. That makes zero sense. By that logic, you could say that Bo7 is stupid because a lot of GSL finals have been bad.
It doesn't, they are just generally worse in my opinion (and apparently 91% of this forum).
I am obviously still going to give this season a chance, I am just really disappointed that we are three years into this game and some of the best players in the world could get eliminated in just two games from the most prestigious tournament there is (WCS KR).
Most people clearly aren't thinking about this rationally and are just going "Bo1 this is fucking stupid it's now COMPLETELY RANDOM who will make it through and everyone will just cheese and it's a coinflip."
Now your exaggerating. Obviously it won't be completely random and every game won't necessarily be a cheese. There will probably be more randomness and cheesing though.
Even if the games don't turn out to be coin flippy or cheesy I still think that it is very unforgiving to be possibly eliminated after just two loses. I don't want to see my favourite players eliminated because they had 2 games where they didn't play their best and I doubt anyone else does either.
Not to say this will make the entire RO32 crap. I am sure it will be great, I just think it would be better with a different format.
Not exaggerating at all. Some people have literally said that it's now completely random who'll make it through. What about last MLG? Not only was it lose 3 games and you're out, but you only played one person, so if you had a bad match up (Minigun vs Life?) you were just out right away. What about code A? If you lose two games then you're out, and if it's in the Ro48, then you have to go through the prelims, where again if you lose two games then you're out.
It's just the way some things are, and it's the way the OSL has always been. Nobody ever complained about it during Brood War, but since people are used to something different in Starcraft 2, they all freak out about it with absolutely no rationale beyond "It didn't work in 2011" and "The last OSL was bad".
You complain about people who exaggerate and then go on to say the bolded sentence yourself. Hypocrisy much? Especially since your only argument is "it's always been like this in BW", lol.
The rationale, as has been many times stated, is that a sequence of Bo1 makes the more skilled player somewhat more vulnerable to allins/cheese. Of course most of the time the more skilled player will make it through, but Bo1 greatly increases the chances for a cheeser to get through or a lesser player upsetting a championship candidate too easily. That wouldn't be too bad if it was just for some nostalgic Starleague, but this replaces basically the GSL S3, so of course we hold it to a higher standard than if it just was an OSL. You also have to consider that this acts as a qualifier for the next season of WCS, so their messup potentially affects the next season too. That's why a lot of us are upset at this and express their concerns...
Not only did I not complain about people who exaggerate, but that sentence wasn't an exaggeration...? What are you talking about?
You claim that a Bo1 instead of a Bo3 will greatly increase the chances for a cheeser/weaker player to get through. Where are your stats for this? From what I've seen, it'll maybe be a 10% difference. Incidentally, many people aren't even saying this; they simply angrily exclaim that it's bullshit, they hate OGN, it'll just be random who gets through, etc.
PS: responding to my argument that it's worked for 13 years with "lol" isn't particularly persuasive.
You want 'stats' that show that in a bo1 the weaker player is more likely to win than in a bo3? This doesnt make sense. It is obvious that in a single game as opposed to a bo series of games the weaker player has more chance to win. This is basic mathematics and akin to asking for 'stats' to show that 2+2 =4.
No, I said I wanted stats to show that it greatly increases their chances. I said right there in my post that the weaker player has a better chance in a Bo1.
well statistically, say player X has a 20% chance by cheese or otherwise to take a map against player Y in a bo1 -> 20% chance to win. in a bo3 -> 10.4% chance to win (i think)
How many times in the previous OSL was the better player knocked out through cheese in a Bo1? Gom will also be streaming with Tastosis.
Idk, it is a little hard to tell because we didn't know how good a lot of the Kespa players were. All I remember was the games were terrible.
Bo1 doesn't magically make games bad. That makes zero sense. By that logic, you could say that Bo7 is stupid because a lot of GSL finals have been bad.
It doesn't, they are just generally worse in my opinion (and apparently 91% of this forum).
I am obviously still going to give this season a chance, I am just really disappointed that we are three years into this game and some of the best players in the world could get eliminated in just two games from the most prestigious tournament there is (WCS KR).
Most people clearly aren't thinking about this rationally and are just going "Bo1 this is fucking stupid it's now COMPLETELY RANDOM who will make it through and everyone will just cheese and it's a coinflip."
Now your exaggerating. Obviously it won't be completely random and every game won't necessarily be a cheese. There will probably be more randomness and cheesing though.
Even if the games don't turn out to be coin flippy or cheesy I still think that it is very unforgiving to be possibly eliminated after just two loses. I don't want to see my favourite players eliminated because they had 2 games where they didn't play their best and I doubt anyone else does either.
Not to say this will make the entire RO32 crap. I am sure it will be great, I just think it would be better with a different format.
Not exaggerating at all. Some people have literally said that it's now completely random who'll make it through. What about last MLG? Not only was it lose 3 games and you're out, but you only played one person, so if you had a bad match up (Minigun vs Life?) you were just out right away. What about code A? If you lose two games then you're out, and if it's in the Ro48, then you have to go through the prelims, where again if you lose two games then you're out.
It's just the way some things are, and it's the way the OSL has always been. Nobody ever complained about it during Brood War, but since people are used to something different in Starcraft 2, they all freak out about it with absolutely no rationale beyond "It didn't work in 2011" and "The last OSL was bad".
You complain about people who exaggerate and then go on to say the bolded sentence yourself. Hypocrisy much? Especially since your only argument is "it's always been like this in BW", lol.
The rationale, as has been many times stated, is that a sequence of Bo1 makes the more skilled player somewhat more vulnerable to allins/cheese. Of course most of the time the more skilled player will make it through, but Bo1 greatly increases the chances for a cheeser to get through or a lesser player upsetting a championship candidate too easily. That wouldn't be too bad if it was just for some nostalgic Starleague, but this replaces basically the GSL S3, so of course we hold it to a higher standard than if it just was an OSL. You also have to consider that this acts as a qualifier for the next season of WCS, so their messup potentially affects the next season too. That's why a lot of us are upset at this and express their concerns...
Not only did I not complain about people who exaggerate, but that sentence wasn't an exaggeration...? What are you talking about?
You claim that a Bo1 instead of a Bo3 will greatly increase the chances for a cheeser/weaker player to get through. Where are your stats for this? From what I've seen, it'll maybe be a 10% difference. Incidentally, many people aren't even saying this; they simply angrily exclaim that it's bullshit, they hate OGN, it'll just be random who gets through, etc.
PS: responding to my argument that it's worked for 13 years with "lol" isn't particularly persuasive.
Sorry if the "lol" offended you, I edited it out I personally just find the line of argumentation of "we have always done it that way" or "it is tradition" never convincing at all (considering we are talking about completely different games).
What I meant is: People complain that this will mean "complete randomness" (which is an exaggeration) which you critize and go on to say that we critics "all freak out about it with absolutely no rationale" (which is also an exaggeration). Here you are being hypocritical...
The ~10% came from an Aligulac estimation, which does not take the mind games and BO gambles of a BoX series into consideration at all, which makes it basically impossible to put a hard number on this. But even if we believe the ~10%, in a whole group with a losers bracket, so a sequence of events, this increases the likelyhood of an "undeserving" player (I'm aware this is a vague term, yet I think most will know what I mean) quite a bit, even though 10% doesn't sound like a lot. To me, it just means an unnecessary increase in volatility/randomness.
The only argument for the Bo1 that I buy into is the one by BlindRawr, that a TV production puts some more limits on it, regarding time etc. I don't have any experience with this, and here their 13 years of experience come into play, and we just have to trust them - yet still the fundamental flaws of Bo1 remain, which is all I'm critizising.
I obviously didn't mean that every single person is doing that, but I see a lot of people in this thread that are. Just a couple of examples:
Best of 1....need gtfo seriously. What a joke that is fml. Thanks for ruining the RO32 OSL, i appreciate it. I won't be tuning in until the RO16, which will be a lottery.
it's bo1 format in the first round so it's completely pointless and quite frankly stupid to talk about.
I never said there's anything wrong with disliking the format or thinking that this gives the weaker player a better chance to make it through. The people I have a problem with are those who just rage at it and talk about how stupid and pointless the entire tournament is as a result.
I think that saying that that's the way they've always done the tournament is a perfectly legitimate argument. As has been said, the fact that it's a TV station instead of being broadcast solely through the internet means that there may be some time restraints, and if it's always worked fine for Brood War and it worked fine for the first Starcraft 2 OSL, why shouldn't it work fine this time as well? If it really does turn out badly, then ok, but people should at least wait to see how it goes before dismissing the entire thing just because the format is different.
On June 14 2013 09:17 Emzeeshady wrote: [quote] We have seen BO1s all the time in SC2 including the last SC2 OSL. It isn't a matter of not getting the chance to see this format in action, it is just that we have and we disliked it.
On another note will GOM be streaming this along with OGN or are Tastosis sitting this one out?
How many times in the previous OSL was the better player knocked out through cheese in a Bo1? Gom will also be streaming with Tastosis.
Idk, it is a little hard to tell because we didn't know how good a lot of the Kespa players were. All I remember was the games were terrible.
Bo1 doesn't magically make games bad. That makes zero sense. By that logic, you could say that Bo7 is stupid because a lot of GSL finals have been bad.
It doesn't, they are just generally worse in my opinion (and apparently 91% of this forum).
I am obviously still going to give this season a chance, I am just really disappointed that we are three years into this game and some of the best players in the world could get eliminated in just two games from the most prestigious tournament there is (WCS KR).
Most people clearly aren't thinking about this rationally and are just going "Bo1 this is fucking stupid it's now COMPLETELY RANDOM who will make it through and everyone will just cheese and it's a coinflip."
Now your exaggerating. Obviously it won't be completely random and every game won't necessarily be a cheese. There will probably be more randomness and cheesing though.
Even if the games don't turn out to be coin flippy or cheesy I still think that it is very unforgiving to be possibly eliminated after just two loses. I don't want to see my favourite players eliminated because they had 2 games where they didn't play their best and I doubt anyone else does either.
Not to say this will make the entire RO32 crap. I am sure it will be great, I just think it would be better with a different format.
Not exaggerating at all. Some people have literally said that it's now completely random who'll make it through. What about last MLG? Not only was it lose 3 games and you're out, but you only played one person, so if you had a bad match up (Minigun vs Life?) you were just out right away. What about code A? If you lose two games then you're out, and if it's in the Ro48, then you have to go through the prelims, where again if you lose two games then you're out.
It's just the way some things are, and it's the way the OSL has always been. Nobody ever complained about it during Brood War, but since people are used to something different in Starcraft 2, they all freak out about it with absolutely no rationale beyond "It didn't work in 2011" and "The last OSL was bad".
You complain about people who exaggerate and then go on to say the bolded sentence yourself. Hypocrisy much? Especially since your only argument is "it's always been like this in BW", lol.
The rationale, as has been many times stated, is that a sequence of Bo1 makes the more skilled player somewhat more vulnerable to allins/cheese. Of course most of the time the more skilled player will make it through, but Bo1 greatly increases the chances for a cheeser to get through or a lesser player upsetting a championship candidate too easily. That wouldn't be too bad if it was just for some nostalgic Starleague, but this replaces basically the GSL S3, so of course we hold it to a higher standard than if it just was an OSL. You also have to consider that this acts as a qualifier for the next season of WCS, so their messup potentially affects the next season too. That's why a lot of us are upset at this and express their concerns...
Not only did I not complain about people who exaggerate, but that sentence wasn't an exaggeration...? What are you talking about?
You claim that a Bo1 instead of a Bo3 will greatly increase the chances for a cheeser/weaker player to get through. Where are your stats for this? From what I've seen, it'll maybe be a 10% difference. Incidentally, many people aren't even saying this; they simply angrily exclaim that it's bullshit, they hate OGN, it'll just be random who gets through, etc.
PS: responding to my argument that it's worked for 13 years with "lol" isn't particularly persuasive.
You don't need stats, it is basic arithmetic. If a player only has a 20% chance to win a game, then he has a 20% chance to win a b01 but only a 10.4% chance to win a b03. Even at 60/40, the weaker player only has a 35.2% chance to win a b03. A bo3 always gives an advantage to the player who is more likely to win.
An other thing, besides increasing the possibility of an "undeserving" player winning against a "better" one, is lack of uniformity between the different leagues which could harm the recognizability of the WCS as a whole. One could argue though, that a solution to this problem is to just change all the other leagues to match the OSL. + Show Spoiler +
How many times in the previous OSL was the better player knocked out through cheese in a Bo1? Gom will also be streaming with Tastosis.
Idk, it is a little hard to tell because we didn't know how good a lot of the Kespa players were. All I remember was the games were terrible.
Bo1 doesn't magically make games bad. That makes zero sense. By that logic, you could say that Bo7 is stupid because a lot of GSL finals have been bad.
It doesn't, they are just generally worse in my opinion (and apparently 91% of this forum).
I am obviously still going to give this season a chance, I am just really disappointed that we are three years into this game and some of the best players in the world could get eliminated in just two games from the most prestigious tournament there is (WCS KR).
Most people clearly aren't thinking about this rationally and are just going "Bo1 this is fucking stupid it's now COMPLETELY RANDOM who will make it through and everyone will just cheese and it's a coinflip."
Now your exaggerating. Obviously it won't be completely random and every game won't necessarily be a cheese. There will probably be more randomness and cheesing though.
Even if the games don't turn out to be coin flippy or cheesy I still think that it is very unforgiving to be possibly eliminated after just two loses. I don't want to see my favourite players eliminated because they had 2 games where they didn't play their best and I doubt anyone else does either.
Not to say this will make the entire RO32 crap. I am sure it will be great, I just think it would be better with a different format.
Not exaggerating at all. Some people have literally said that it's now completely random who'll make it through. What about last MLG? Not only was it lose 3 games and you're out, but you only played one person, so if you had a bad match up (Minigun vs Life?) you were just out right away. What about code A? If you lose two games then you're out, and if it's in the Ro48, then you have to go through the prelims, where again if you lose two games then you're out.
It's just the way some things are, and it's the way the OSL has always been. Nobody ever complained about it during Brood War, but since people are used to something different in Starcraft 2, they all freak out about it with absolutely no rationale beyond "It didn't work in 2011" and "The last OSL was bad".
You complain about people who exaggerate and then go on to say the bolded sentence yourself. Hypocrisy much? Especially since your only argument is "it's always been like this in BW", lol.
The rationale, as has been many times stated, is that a sequence of Bo1 makes the more skilled player somewhat more vulnerable to allins/cheese. Of course most of the time the more skilled player will make it through, but Bo1 greatly increases the chances for a cheeser to get through or a lesser player upsetting a championship candidate too easily. That wouldn't be too bad if it was just for some nostalgic Starleague, but this replaces basically the GSL S3, so of course we hold it to a higher standard than if it just was an OSL. You also have to consider that this acts as a qualifier for the next season of WCS, so their messup potentially affects the next season too. That's why a lot of us are upset at this and express their concerns...
Not only did I not complain about people who exaggerate, but that sentence wasn't an exaggeration...? What are you talking about?
You claim that a Bo1 instead of a Bo3 will greatly increase the chances for a cheeser/weaker player to get through. Where are your stats for this? From what I've seen, it'll maybe be a 10% difference. Incidentally, many people aren't even saying this; they simply angrily exclaim that it's bullshit, they hate OGN, it'll just be random who gets through, etc.
PS: responding to my argument that it's worked for 13 years with "lol" isn't particularly persuasive.
You don't need stats, it is basic arithmetic. If a player only has a 20% chance to win a game, then he has a 20% chance to win a b01 but only a 10.4% chance to win a b03. Even at 60/40, the weaker player only has a 35.2% chance to win a b03. A bo3 always gives an advantage to the player who is more likely to win.
Once again, obviously a Bo1 gives the weaker player a better chance to advance. I asked for proof that it GREATLY increases their chances.
On June 14 2013 09:52 Emzeeshady wrote: [quote] Idk, it is a little hard to tell because we didn't know how good a lot of the Kespa players were. All I remember was the games were terrible.
Bo1 doesn't magically make games bad. That makes zero sense. By that logic, you could say that Bo7 is stupid because a lot of GSL finals have been bad.
It doesn't, they are just generally worse in my opinion (and apparently 91% of this forum).
I am obviously still going to give this season a chance, I am just really disappointed that we are three years into this game and some of the best players in the world could get eliminated in just two games from the most prestigious tournament there is (WCS KR).
Most people clearly aren't thinking about this rationally and are just going "Bo1 this is fucking stupid it's now COMPLETELY RANDOM who will make it through and everyone will just cheese and it's a coinflip."
Now your exaggerating. Obviously it won't be completely random and every game won't necessarily be a cheese. There will probably be more randomness and cheesing though.
Even if the games don't turn out to be coin flippy or cheesy I still think that it is very unforgiving to be possibly eliminated after just two loses. I don't want to see my favourite players eliminated because they had 2 games where they didn't play their best and I doubt anyone else does either.
Not to say this will make the entire RO32 crap. I am sure it will be great, I just think it would be better with a different format.
Not exaggerating at all. Some people have literally said that it's now completely random who'll make it through. What about last MLG? Not only was it lose 3 games and you're out, but you only played one person, so if you had a bad match up (Minigun vs Life?) you were just out right away. What about code A? If you lose two games then you're out, and if it's in the Ro48, then you have to go through the prelims, where again if you lose two games then you're out.
It's just the way some things are, and it's the way the OSL has always been. Nobody ever complained about it during Brood War, but since people are used to something different in Starcraft 2, they all freak out about it with absolutely no rationale beyond "It didn't work in 2011" and "The last OSL was bad".
You complain about people who exaggerate and then go on to say the bolded sentence yourself. Hypocrisy much? Especially since your only argument is "it's always been like this in BW", lol.
The rationale, as has been many times stated, is that a sequence of Bo1 makes the more skilled player somewhat more vulnerable to allins/cheese. Of course most of the time the more skilled player will make it through, but Bo1 greatly increases the chances for a cheeser to get through or a lesser player upsetting a championship candidate too easily. That wouldn't be too bad if it was just for some nostalgic Starleague, but this replaces basically the GSL S3, so of course we hold it to a higher standard than if it just was an OSL. You also have to consider that this acts as a qualifier for the next season of WCS, so their messup potentially affects the next season too. That's why a lot of us are upset at this and express their concerns...
Not only did I not complain about people who exaggerate, but that sentence wasn't an exaggeration...? What are you talking about?
You claim that a Bo1 instead of a Bo3 will greatly increase the chances for a cheeser/weaker player to get through. Where are your stats for this? From what I've seen, it'll maybe be a 10% difference. Incidentally, many people aren't even saying this; they simply angrily exclaim that it's bullshit, they hate OGN, it'll just be random who gets through, etc.
PS: responding to my argument that it's worked for 13 years with "lol" isn't particularly persuasive.
You don't need stats, it is basic arithmetic. If a player only has a 20% chance to win a game, then he has a 20% chance to win a b01 but only a 10.4% chance to win a b03. Even at 60/40, the weaker player only has a 35.2% chance to win a b03. A bo3 always gives an advantage to the player who is more likely to win.
Once again, obviously a Bo1 gives the weaker player a better chance to advance. I asked for proof that it GREATLY increases their chances.
a 80-20 split probably isn't too uncommon to have (e.g. i'd bet that bogus can probably beat shine 4/5 times) but doubling the chances to advance from 10% to 20% is pretty significant in my eyes. dno if you call that great or not though
Bo1 doesn't magically make games bad. That makes zero sense. By that logic, you could say that Bo7 is stupid because a lot of GSL finals have been bad.
It doesn't, they are just generally worse in my opinion (and apparently 91% of this forum).
I am obviously still going to give this season a chance, I am just really disappointed that we are three years into this game and some of the best players in the world could get eliminated in just two games from the most prestigious tournament there is (WCS KR).
Most people clearly aren't thinking about this rationally and are just going "Bo1 this is fucking stupid it's now COMPLETELY RANDOM who will make it through and everyone will just cheese and it's a coinflip."
Now your exaggerating. Obviously it won't be completely random and every game won't necessarily be a cheese. There will probably be more randomness and cheesing though.
Even if the games don't turn out to be coin flippy or cheesy I still think that it is very unforgiving to be possibly eliminated after just two loses. I don't want to see my favourite players eliminated because they had 2 games where they didn't play their best and I doubt anyone else does either.
Not to say this will make the entire RO32 crap. I am sure it will be great, I just think it would be better with a different format.
Not exaggerating at all. Some people have literally said that it's now completely random who'll make it through. What about last MLG? Not only was it lose 3 games and you're out, but you only played one person, so if you had a bad match up (Minigun vs Life?) you were just out right away. What about code A? If you lose two games then you're out, and if it's in the Ro48, then you have to go through the prelims, where again if you lose two games then you're out.
It's just the way some things are, and it's the way the OSL has always been. Nobody ever complained about it during Brood War, but since people are used to something different in Starcraft 2, they all freak out about it with absolutely no rationale beyond "It didn't work in 2011" and "The last OSL was bad".
You complain about people who exaggerate and then go on to say the bolded sentence yourself. Hypocrisy much? Especially since your only argument is "it's always been like this in BW", lol.
The rationale, as has been many times stated, is that a sequence of Bo1 makes the more skilled player somewhat more vulnerable to allins/cheese. Of course most of the time the more skilled player will make it through, but Bo1 greatly increases the chances for a cheeser to get through or a lesser player upsetting a championship candidate too easily. That wouldn't be too bad if it was just for some nostalgic Starleague, but this replaces basically the GSL S3, so of course we hold it to a higher standard than if it just was an OSL. You also have to consider that this acts as a qualifier for the next season of WCS, so their messup potentially affects the next season too. That's why a lot of us are upset at this and express their concerns...
Not only did I not complain about people who exaggerate, but that sentence wasn't an exaggeration...? What are you talking about?
You claim that a Bo1 instead of a Bo3 will greatly increase the chances for a cheeser/weaker player to get through. Where are your stats for this? From what I've seen, it'll maybe be a 10% difference. Incidentally, many people aren't even saying this; they simply angrily exclaim that it's bullshit, they hate OGN, it'll just be random who gets through, etc.
PS: responding to my argument that it's worked for 13 years with "lol" isn't particularly persuasive.
You don't need stats, it is basic arithmetic. If a player only has a 20% chance to win a game, then he has a 20% chance to win a b01 but only a 10.4% chance to win a b03. Even at 60/40, the weaker player only has a 35.2% chance to win a b03. A bo3 always gives an advantage to the player who is more likely to win.
Once again, obviously a Bo1 gives the weaker player a better chance to advance. I asked for proof that it GREATLY increases their chances.
a 80-20 split probably isn't too uncommon to have (e.g. i'd bet that bogus can probably beat shine 4/5 times) but doubling the chances to advance from 10% to 20% is pretty significant in my eyes. dno if you call that great or not though
Saying doubling is not very useful though : for the advantaged player, this is a 8/9th disadvantage, nothing to complain about, which number is more significant as a spectator ? A more interesting but a bit more complicated thing to compute would be something like the average number of let's say supplementary top8 player that would be eliminated in the round of 32 with bo1s instead of a bo3s, using Aligulac ratings... I'd venture it wouldn't be much higher than 1.
On June 14 2013 10:47 Emzeeshady wrote: [quote] It doesn't, they are just generally worse in my opinion (and apparently 91% of this forum).
I am obviously still going to give this season a chance, I am just really disappointed that we are three years into this game and some of the best players in the world could get eliminated in just two games from the most prestigious tournament there is (WCS KR).
Most people clearly aren't thinking about this rationally and are just going "Bo1 this is fucking stupid it's now COMPLETELY RANDOM who will make it through and everyone will just cheese and it's a coinflip."
Now your exaggerating. Obviously it won't be completely random and every game won't necessarily be a cheese. There will probably be more randomness and cheesing though.
Even if the games don't turn out to be coin flippy or cheesy I still think that it is very unforgiving to be possibly eliminated after just two loses. I don't want to see my favourite players eliminated because they had 2 games where they didn't play their best and I doubt anyone else does either.
Not to say this will make the entire RO32 crap. I am sure it will be great, I just think it would be better with a different format.
Not exaggerating at all. Some people have literally said that it's now completely random who'll make it through. What about last MLG? Not only was it lose 3 games and you're out, but you only played one person, so if you had a bad match up (Minigun vs Life?) you were just out right away. What about code A? If you lose two games then you're out, and if it's in the Ro48, then you have to go through the prelims, where again if you lose two games then you're out.
It's just the way some things are, and it's the way the OSL has always been. Nobody ever complained about it during Brood War, but since people are used to something different in Starcraft 2, they all freak out about it with absolutely no rationale beyond "It didn't work in 2011" and "The last OSL was bad".
You complain about people who exaggerate and then go on to say the bolded sentence yourself. Hypocrisy much? Especially since your only argument is "it's always been like this in BW", lol.
The rationale, as has been many times stated, is that a sequence of Bo1 makes the more skilled player somewhat more vulnerable to allins/cheese. Of course most of the time the more skilled player will make it through, but Bo1 greatly increases the chances for a cheeser to get through or a lesser player upsetting a championship candidate too easily. That wouldn't be too bad if it was just for some nostalgic Starleague, but this replaces basically the GSL S3, so of course we hold it to a higher standard than if it just was an OSL. You also have to consider that this acts as a qualifier for the next season of WCS, so their messup potentially affects the next season too. That's why a lot of us are upset at this and express their concerns...
Not only did I not complain about people who exaggerate, but that sentence wasn't an exaggeration...? What are you talking about?
You claim that a Bo1 instead of a Bo3 will greatly increase the chances for a cheeser/weaker player to get through. Where are your stats for this? From what I've seen, it'll maybe be a 10% difference. Incidentally, many people aren't even saying this; they simply angrily exclaim that it's bullshit, they hate OGN, it'll just be random who gets through, etc.
PS: responding to my argument that it's worked for 13 years with "lol" isn't particularly persuasive.
You don't need stats, it is basic arithmetic. If a player only has a 20% chance to win a game, then he has a 20% chance to win a b01 but only a 10.4% chance to win a b03. Even at 60/40, the weaker player only has a 35.2% chance to win a b03. A bo3 always gives an advantage to the player who is more likely to win.
Once again, obviously a Bo1 gives the weaker player a better chance to advance. I asked for proof that it GREATLY increases their chances.
a 80-20 split probably isn't too uncommon to have (e.g. i'd bet that bogus can probably beat shine 4/5 times) but doubling the chances to advance from 10% to 20% is pretty significant in my eyes. dno if you call that great or not though
Saying doubling is not very useful though : for the advantaged player, this is a 8/9th disadvantage, nothing to complain about, which number is more significant as a spectator ? A more interesting but a bit more complicated thing to compute would be something like the average number of let's say supplementary top8 player that would be eliminated in the round of 32 with bo1s instead of a bo3s, using Aligulac ratings... I'd venture it wouldn't be much higher than 1.
doubling the chances means we will see double the upsets. granted, if we normally have 1-2, this only means we have 3-4. but 3-4 is quite a lot of upsets for a RO32 imo
Most people clearly aren't thinking about this rationally and are just going "Bo1 this is fucking stupid it's now COMPLETELY RANDOM who will make it through and everyone will just cheese and it's a coinflip."
Now your exaggerating. Obviously it won't be completely random and every game won't necessarily be a cheese. There will probably be more randomness and cheesing though.
Even if the games don't turn out to be coin flippy or cheesy I still think that it is very unforgiving to be possibly eliminated after just two loses. I don't want to see my favourite players eliminated because they had 2 games where they didn't play their best and I doubt anyone else does either.
Not to say this will make the entire RO32 crap. I am sure it will be great, I just think it would be better with a different format.
Not exaggerating at all. Some people have literally said that it's now completely random who'll make it through. What about last MLG? Not only was it lose 3 games and you're out, but you only played one person, so if you had a bad match up (Minigun vs Life?) you were just out right away. What about code A? If you lose two games then you're out, and if it's in the Ro48, then you have to go through the prelims, where again if you lose two games then you're out.
It's just the way some things are, and it's the way the OSL has always been. Nobody ever complained about it during Brood War, but since people are used to something different in Starcraft 2, they all freak out about it with absolutely no rationale beyond "It didn't work in 2011" and "The last OSL was bad".
You complain about people who exaggerate and then go on to say the bolded sentence yourself. Hypocrisy much? Especially since your only argument is "it's always been like this in BW", lol.
The rationale, as has been many times stated, is that a sequence of Bo1 makes the more skilled player somewhat more vulnerable to allins/cheese. Of course most of the time the more skilled player will make it through, but Bo1 greatly increases the chances for a cheeser to get through or a lesser player upsetting a championship candidate too easily. That wouldn't be too bad if it was just for some nostalgic Starleague, but this replaces basically the GSL S3, so of course we hold it to a higher standard than if it just was an OSL. You also have to consider that this acts as a qualifier for the next season of WCS, so their messup potentially affects the next season too. That's why a lot of us are upset at this and express their concerns...
Not only did I not complain about people who exaggerate, but that sentence wasn't an exaggeration...? What are you talking about?
You claim that a Bo1 instead of a Bo3 will greatly increase the chances for a cheeser/weaker player to get through. Where are your stats for this? From what I've seen, it'll maybe be a 10% difference. Incidentally, many people aren't even saying this; they simply angrily exclaim that it's bullshit, they hate OGN, it'll just be random who gets through, etc.
PS: responding to my argument that it's worked for 13 years with "lol" isn't particularly persuasive.
You don't need stats, it is basic arithmetic. If a player only has a 20% chance to win a game, then he has a 20% chance to win a b01 but only a 10.4% chance to win a b03. Even at 60/40, the weaker player only has a 35.2% chance to win a b03. A bo3 always gives an advantage to the player who is more likely to win.
Once again, obviously a Bo1 gives the weaker player a better chance to advance. I asked for proof that it GREATLY increases their chances.
a 80-20 split probably isn't too uncommon to have (e.g. i'd bet that bogus can probably beat shine 4/5 times) but doubling the chances to advance from 10% to 20% is pretty significant in my eyes. dno if you call that great or not though
Saying doubling is not very useful though : for the advantaged player, this is a 8/9th disadvantage, nothing to complain about, which number is more significant as a spectator ? A more interesting but a bit more complicated thing to compute would be something like the average number of let's say supplementary top8 player that would be eliminated in the round of 32 with bo1s instead of a bo3s, using Aligulac ratings... I'd venture it wouldn't be much higher than 1.
doubling the chances means we will see double the upsets. granted, if we normally have 1-2, this only means we have 3-4. but 3-4 is quite a lot of upsets for a RO32 imo
What are the key differences between the KR, EU, and NA leagues?
Our goal has been to make the leagues as identical as possible in terms of structure, based on the GSL model. As a result of working with different league partners, there will be minor format differences that arise based on the legacy of a particular league.
though bo1 is a little silly for sc2 since it doesn't have as good balance; but mainly because its been the standard for a while and a consolodated global qualifying event should try to have most similar standards
balance wise bo1 mainly a problem in zvz in bw but you'd need like a bo5 to start hitting real balance on that, save for some jvz or the difference in players' confidence on tv. they're different games, what works for bw doesn't in sc2
edit- also, although bo1 isn't really bad (people are being dumb), the entire seed system works differently compared to bw. top 4 previous osl seeded right into ro16, and hypothetically (from tournament organization viewpoint) those are top 4 players in the world or close to it. The "better player" was automatically in the ro16.
Well people should still note that some advantage is gained from a Bo3 over Bo1, but it's definitely small and it's a well demonstrated blog.
Also he notes that if maps sucks, blame the people that picked em. No vetoes, random draw. So we blame OSL anyway right?
I mean I'm not freaking out about it, because most likely the best players will still win like best players do. But I am yet to be convinced that Bo3 is a better format for a large number of reasons. Storylines, mindgames, build variety, map variety, endurance, stronger overall preparation, etc, etc. I don't think any of that is more prevalent in Bo1. Of course, people disagree, maybe more strongly here as Bo3 is such a sc2 staple.
Proleague or all-kill format though? See I think that debate is more in the air, and more interesting.
Edit: And for surpreme scouting by everyone and for everything else that can prevent major upsets to happen. I understand why they chose this format but I don't know if it's worth the amount of shitstorms this potentially brings. Times have changed. People want bo3's now.
As the maps will be picked by random, odds of getting screwed in BO1 are much larger than in Bo3 (cause you don't play same map twice). So it is still the fault of Bo1, and not the random map selection.
I don't really care much about these Bo1/Bo3 crap. If Flash loses twice to all-ins because he's simply too greedy then I'd blame him and not the format. If he loses straight up to Soulkey, it would only be because the better player won.
As the maps will be picked by random, odds of getting screwed in BO1 are much larger than in Bo3 (cause you don't play same map twice). So it is still the fault of Bo1, and not the random map selection.
for the millionth time, maps in bo1 group are all preset. You dont come to the stadium without knowing which map to play on
I must say, looking at the overview of Gwanghalli Beach, it seems like a pretty bad map. Totally cheesy, 1-2 base all-in maps. I would like to stand corrected though, and who knows maybe some nice games will happen on it.
The OSL-format was always good, no problems at all with BO1 in the early rounds. The BW OSL's should be a clear indicator that the best players almost always qualify and that the rest of the games in the tournament tend to be of good quality; I vastly prefer it to the mess of GSL constant qualifiers with bo3's and up/down round-robins with so-so players that takes forever to finish.
On June 15 2013 01:54 sushiman wrote: The OSL-format was always good, no problems at all with BO1 in the early rounds. The BW OSL's should be a clear indicator that the best players almost always qualify and that the rest of the games in the tournament tend to be of good quality; I vastly prefer it to the mess of GSL constant qualifiers with bo3's and up/down round-robins with so-so players that takes forever to finish.
You know that with this system those "so-so players" can actually beat the top people and get to higher rounds right? Personally i am up for a new format to see how it goes but your reasoning is actually backwards.
On June 14 2013 08:59 edgeOut wrote: Bo3 gives you boring games, BO1 no matter good or bad, will be exciting. Will love to see some big names get knocked out early.
It's also more impressive to consistently win a bunch of Bo1
People praise those types of players all the time, but they call them Ladder Heroes.
its a shame that you think that, I'm sure you feel the same way about players who consistently do well in proleague/GSTL but cannot make it far in individual leagues.
Most non-GSL players got famous for being ladder heroes. Winning tones of Bo1 games live on stream, gaining fans that way.
Happy, DeMuslim, etc...
Flash and JD also got huge props for never failing to make it past the group stage in MSL and OSL. Because no amount of cheese or greedy plays could knock them out.
Not only that, but all game 7's in a Bo7 is just a Bo1 between tired players. Some play standard (like MMA) others cheese (Like MVP)
Average win rates aren't really the issue though. Sometimes you'll have a BO choice where it/s 100% chance to win or lose by luck, or as has been said the map... or you make one bad mistake and have no chance to make up for it...
Well people should still note that some advantage is gained from a Bo3 over Bo1, but it's definitely small and it's a well demonstrated blog.
Also he notes that if maps sucks, blame the people that picked em. No vetoes, random draw. So we blame OSL anyway right?
I mean I'm not freaking out about it, because most likely the best players will still win like best players do. But I am yet to be convinced that Bo3 is a better format for a large number of reasons. Storylines, mindgames, build variety, map variety, endurance, stronger overall preparation, etc, etc. I don't think any of that is more prevalent in Bo1. Of course, people disagree, maybe more strongly here as Bo3 is such a sc2 staple.
Proleague or all-kill format though? See I think that debate is more in the air, and more interesting.
There are many ways of creating stories. Would I like to see more games? Surely, as demonstrated by my World Circuit where the top players would fly all over the world and compete against one another more frequently for points in a LAN setting. At the end of the season for the Grand Season Finals the top players would play in a similar round robin format like your GSLs/OSLs. You want to create stories you can do it all the time by having these players meet more frequently rather than playing a best of every time they meet. Pro League does this to a certain extent but not often enough.
Think of a a few hundred little Napoleons setting forth to conquer the World. I digress, let's get back to the point. There are plenty of ways of building story and when the players meet as often as the KeSPA players. The mind games and story is already there. There will be variety no matter what with the round robin. Player selections are fun and you cannot have 5 bo3's take place with the given time slot TV wise. Heck OGN is only airing half the PL games on TV weekly because their schedule is already pretty tight. The feed is very different compared to your internet stream. It's worked for them before & they have years of experience when it comes to hosting. Also just because it's a best of one doesn't mean your preparation isn't as strong. The amount of upsets will be minor.
Average win rates aren't really the issue though. Sometimes you'll have a BO choice where it/s 100% chance to win or lose by luck, or as has been said the map... or you make one bad mistake and have no chance to make up for it...
That's why it's intense and yes SC2 is very unforgiving when it comes to a mistake. That's why you prepare yourself for all possibilities and come up with a good game plan. This is what makes champions and your chance is by rectifying the issue by beating out the other players in your group.
On June 15 2013 01:54 sushiman wrote: The OSL-format was always good, no problems at all with BO1 in the early rounds. The BW OSL's should be a clear indicator that the best players almost always qualify and that the rest of the games in the tournament tend to be of good quality; I vastly prefer it to the mess of GSL constant qualifiers with bo3's and up/down round-robins with so-so players that takes forever to finish.
You know that with this system those "so-so players" can actually beat the top people and get to higher rounds right? Personally i am up for a new format to see how it goes but your reasoning is actually backwards.
If you'd watched the previous OSL's, you'd see that it almost always are the best players advancing; only occasionally would so-so players slip through, and either shape up for the more preparation-heavy ro16 or just drop out. The good thing with the OSL-system is that there's less shitty games with mediocre players and more time to build hype for the more important higher rounds.
On June 16 2013 05:01 Bupi wrote: I really hope Flash, Soulkey and Innovation will fall to this and OGN ruin the whole WCS Season with their stupid format.
Haha, that would be pretty funny. I wonder how quick those people defending it would turn on it if that happened
it would be pretty funny to me if they don't. i don't have to wonder how the people wanting them to fall would feel and i'd be laughing
On June 16 2013 05:01 Bupi wrote: I really hope Flash, Soulkey and Innovation will fall to this and OGN ruin the whole WCS Season with their stupid format.
Haha, that would be pretty funny. I wonder how quick those people defending it would turn on it if that happened
it would be pretty funny to me if they don't. i don't have to wonder how the people wanting them to fall would feel and i'd be laughing
It wouldn't really be funny, it would be as predicted. Unless you think matches happening ho they are expected funny? ;p
He would find it funny because everyone is complaining that OGN have a bad format that will ruin the tournament, but then everything ends up going smoothly.
On June 16 2013 05:01 Bupi wrote: I really hope Flash, Soulkey and Innovation will fall to this and OGN ruin the whole WCS Season with their stupid format.
Haha, that would be pretty funny. I wonder how quick those people defending it would turn on it if that happened
it would be pretty funny to me if they don't. i don't have to wonder how the people wanting them to fall would feel and i'd be laughing
It wouldn't really be funny, it would be as predicted. Unless you think matches happening ho they are expected funny? ;p
hmm i know you. have you resigned your position as #1 flash anti-fan? son, i am disappoint.
On June 16 2013 05:01 Bupi wrote: I really hope Flash, Soulkey and Innovation will fall to this and OGN ruin the whole WCS Season with their stupid format.
Haha, that would be pretty funny. I wonder how quick those people defending it would turn on it if that happened
it would be pretty funny to me if they don't. i don't have to wonder how the people wanting them to fall would feel and i'd be laughing
It wouldn't really be funny, it would be as predicted. Unless you think matches happening ho they are expected funny? ;p
He would find it funny because everyone is complaining that OGN have a bad format that will ruin the tournament, but then everything ends up going smoothly.
i agree with this. When WCS was starting out, the amount of bitching about almost any detail was unbelievable. Then once it (the games) started happening, people started saying "oh, it's actually not so bad after all". This OSL format isn't new, and it itself isn't destined to doom the tournament. I'm sure it'll end up being okay, even though some unwanted people may make it past the ro32.
On June 16 2013 05:01 Bupi wrote: I really hope Flash, Soulkey and Innovation will fall to this and OGN ruin the whole WCS Season with their stupid format.
Haha, that would be pretty funny. I wonder how quick those people defending it would turn on it if that happened
it would be pretty funny to me if they don't. i don't have to wonder how the people wanting them to fall would feel and i'd be laughing
It wouldn't really be funny, it would be as predicted. Unless you think matches happening ho they are expected funny? ;p
He would find it funny because everyone is complaining that OGN have a bad format that will ruin the tournament, but then everything ends up going smoothly.
i agree with this. When WCS was starting out, the amount of bitching about almost any detail was unbelievable. Then once it (the games) started happening, people started saying "oh, it's actually not so bad after all". This OSL format isn't new, and it itself isn't destined to doom the tournament. I'm sure it'll end up being okay, even though some unwanted people may make it past the ro32.
amen brother. i actually like the variety and it caters to different strengths of the players. would be boring if every single tournament out there would be the same.
On June 16 2013 05:01 Bupi wrote: I really hope Flash, Soulkey and Innovation will fall to this and OGN ruin the whole WCS Season with their stupid format.
Haha, that would be pretty funny. I wonder how quick those people defending it would turn on it if that happened
it would be pretty funny to me if they don't. i don't have to wonder how the people wanting them to fall would feel and i'd be laughing
It wouldn't really be funny, it would be as predicted. Unless you think matches happening ho they are expected funny? ;p
hmm i know you. have you resigned your position as #1 flash anti-fan? son, i am disappoint.
wait, so the first group stage is like the GSL - just with one set instead of two or three, which means more randomness and less games? The season hasn't begun yet, and I already miss Gom
So the first round includes the new KeSPA maps. Surprised to see no one discussing them. They look pretty cool, so I took ̶s̶o̶m̶e̶ several screencaps.
Anaconda: You can't build in the water, so terrans will probably never take this pseudo-island base if the rocks fall. + Show Spoiler +
So the first round includes the new KeSPA maps. Surprised to see no one discussing them. They look pretty cool, so I took ̶s̶o̶m̶e̶ several screencaps.
Anaconda: You can't build in the water, so terrans will probably never take this pseudo-island base if the rocks fall. + Show Spoiler +
Even then, there's two more attack points- from the beach and from the roads + Show Spoiler +
(Un)fortunately, you cannot build on the bridge. + Show Spoiler +
All I can say is, I'm pretty hyped for OSL and hope these maps come to the ladder pool soon.
thanks for the analysis. Apparent both have been updated (Anaconda 0.3-->0.5, GB 0.3-->0.11) to have more features (like that pseudo-island omg). So hyped
On June 16 2013 21:37 TheShimmy wrote: Finally the return of the four man round robin.
ideed, I am really hyped about OSL. I think a different Starleague format is a good thing and I hope people will stop complaining about Bo1 eventually. Although the truth is, when any kind of surprise happens, people will only blame Bo1 instead of praising the better preparation of the winning player...
Also I think people should stop comparing HotS with (start of) 2011 WoL. Bo1 nowadays will work very similar to BW Bo1..
So the first round includes the new KeSPA maps. Surprised to see no one discussing them. They look pretty cool, so I took ̶s̶o̶m̶e̶ several screencaps.
Anaconda: You can't build in the water, so terrans will probably never take this pseudo-island base if the rocks fall. + Show Spoiler +
On June 18 2013 18:39 Sharean wrote: I think all regions should play out the same way, hence using the same format. I don't understand why OSL is allowed to change the rules.
because with bo1 there are more "upsets" and they think the audience will be more attracted by that while, infact, it's probably the opposite because most people realize how random a single game can be as opposed to a whole series.
On June 18 2013 18:39 Sharean wrote: I think all regions should play out the same way, hence using the same format. I don't understand why OSL is allowed to change the rules.
On June 16 2013 05:01 Bupi wrote: I really hope Flash, Soulkey and Innovation will fall to this and OGN ruin the whole WCS Season with their stupid format.
lol
Well I'm glad I didn't have to go through 3 ZvZ Bo3s before the next group starts~! \o/
On June 18 2013 19:49 Druss wrote: BO1 is a huge mistake, I hope they will review their rules ASAP.
Uhh no it isn't. The games today have been great.
That's a strawman. The argument isn't that a bo1 leads to worse games.
If it doesn't lead to worse games and has been a format good enough to maintain an esport scene for 10ish years--what is the argument exactly?
That is because BW was a lot more of a stable game and a good strong player could, a lot of times hold off weird builds or cheeses by just executing his build better, and the later the game got the more you could defeat someone trough superior mechanics. SC2 is a lot more volatile, even after HoTS release, and you run the huge risk that in a BO1 format not the best player will advance.
On June 18 2013 19:49 Druss wrote: BO1 is a huge mistake, I hope they will review their rules ASAP.
Uhh no it isn't. The games today have been great.
That's a strawman. The argument isn't that a bo1 leads to worse games.
If it doesn't lead to worse games and has been a format good enough to maintain an esport scene for 10ish years--what is the argument exactly?
That is because BW was a lot more of a stable game and a good strong player could, a lot of times hold off weird builds or cheeses by just executing his build better, and the later the game got the more you could defeat someone trough superior mechanics. SC2 is a lot more volatile, even after HoTS release, and you run the huge risk that in a BO1 format not the best player will advance.
People don't want to see "the best player" advance, they want to see THEIR FAVORITE player advance. The whole thing is a fallacy. If your favorite player is the underdog mechanically (which alot of tournament winners like Nestea, Stork, etc, are incidentally), and can only hope to win via clever tactics and planning things out on maps, why aren't people crying about them winning in the Bo1 situation? Different Bo's reward different skill sets, one slightly in the favor of another, for the viewer it honestly doesn't matter.
On June 19 2013 01:02 BLinD-RawR wrote: shitstorm averted for today.
We just need sOs, Life and Rain and we're good too go. Then again, OSl wouldn't be OSL if we didn't miss a really good player, if you see what I mean...
On June 19 2013 01:02 BLinD-RawR wrote: shitstorm averted for today.
We just need sOs, Life and Rain and we're good too go. Then again, OSl wouldn't be OSL if we didn't miss a really good player, if you see what I mean...
On June 19 2013 01:02 BLinD-RawR wrote: shitstorm averted for today.
We just need sOs, Life and Rain and we're good too go. Then again, OSl wouldn't be OSL if we didn't miss a really good player, if you see what I mean...
On June 19 2013 01:02 BLinD-RawR wrote: shitstorm averted for today.
We just need sOs, Life and Rain and we're good too go. Then again, OSl wouldn't be OSL if we didn't miss a really good player, if you see what I mean...
well the sun can't shine everywhere.
This post is so good, you deserve a star
Nay, two stars
hehehe
of course for the others that got it but don't particularly like the message + Show Spoiler +
On June 18 2013 19:49 Druss wrote: BO1 is a huge mistake, I hope they will review their rules ASAP.
Uhh no it isn't. The games today have been great.
That's a strawman. The argument isn't that a bo1 leads to worse games.
If it doesn't lead to worse games and has been a format good enough to maintain an esport scene for 10ish years--what is the argument exactly?
That is because BW was a lot more of a stable game and a good strong player could, a lot of times hold off weird builds or cheeses by just executing his build better, and the later the game got the more you could defeat someone trough superior mechanics. SC2 is a lot more volatile, even after HoTS release, and you run the huge risk that in a BO1 format not the best player will advance.
People don't want to see "the best player" advance, they want to see THEIR FAVORITE player advance. The whole thing is a fallacy. If your favorite player is the underdog mechanically (which alot of tournament winners like Nestea, Stork, etc, are incidentally), and can only hope to win via clever tactics and planning things out on maps, why aren't people crying about them winning in the Bo1 situation? Different Bo's reward different skill sets, one slightly in the favor of another, for the viewer it honestly doesn't matter.
What you fail to take into account is that there might be a large portion of viewers that root for a player because of his skills and dominance, not some other silly factors. For those fans the player earned their viewership trough consistently good play and domination, this is why I was and still am a Mvp fan, this is why I am a Innovation fan, because their play is so good, so crisp, so sharp, that it is inspiring, it is beautiful. When they stop becoming good, I'll remember them for what they where, I'll praise them, and I'll hope they can reach their past glory (as how Mvp has managed to do so), but I will root for the next dominant player. And I am sure I am not the only one that thinks like this.
Your entire argument hinges on BO1 requiring a whole different skill set to legitimize it, and while I agree it does require a slightly different skill set, I'll argue that that is an inferior skill set and this its a bad thing. A BO1 is easier to prepare for because its just one opponent and one map, it will only show clever play, which while fun, doesn't display resilience, adaptability and play under pressure, to quite the same extent, and those are a lot more traits, and a lot more important traits for a champion to have.
A BO3, never mind several, requires so much more preparation, then BO1, it can also involve creativity, but it more so involves adaptability, as a player has more time to study his opponent and tailor his builds and style accordingly, it requires resilience, as you have to play trough and win several games and finally it requires that good mindset, to be able to keep your cool and your focus trough out the series.
And yes for the viewers it matters who advances, it honestly feels like we get cheated out of seeing more good games if players like Flash or Innovation or Soulkey don't advance, because they are so good and capable of so much.
On June 18 2013 19:49 Druss wrote: BO1 is a huge mistake, I hope they will review their rules ASAP.
Uhh no it isn't. The games today have been great.
That's a strawman. The argument isn't that a bo1 leads to worse games.
If it doesn't lead to worse games and has been a format good enough to maintain an esport scene for 10ish years--what is the argument exactly?
That is because BW was a lot more of a stable game and a good strong player could, a lot of times hold off weird builds or cheeses by just executing his build better, and the later the game got the more you could defeat someone trough superior mechanics. SC2 is a lot more volatile, even after HoTS release, and you run the huge risk that in a BO1 format not the best player will advance.
Innovation was totally sniped today in his first game. Guess what, he won.
If you are good enough, SC2 rewards the better player in bo1s too.
On June 18 2013 19:49 Druss wrote: BO1 is a huge mistake, I hope they will review their rules ASAP.
Uhh no it isn't. The games today have been great.
That's a strawman. The argument isn't that a bo1 leads to worse games.
If it doesn't lead to worse games and has been a format good enough to maintain an esport scene for 10ish years--what is the argument exactly?
That is because BW was a lot more of a stable game and a good strong player could, a lot of times hold off weird builds or cheeses by just executing his build better, and the later the game got the more you could defeat someone trough superior mechanics. SC2 is a lot more volatile, even after HoTS release, and you run the huge risk that in a BO1 format not the best player will advance.
Innovation was totally sniped today in his first game. Guess what, he won.
If you are good enough, SC2 rewards the better player in bo1s too.
On June 18 2013 19:49 Druss wrote: BO1 is a huge mistake, I hope they will review their rules ASAP.
Uhh no it isn't. The games today have been great.
That's a strawman. The argument isn't that a bo1 leads to worse games.
If it doesn't lead to worse games and has been a format good enough to maintain an esport scene for 10ish years--what is the argument exactly?
That is because BW was a lot more of a stable game and a good strong player could, a lot of times hold off weird builds or cheeses by just executing his build better, and the later the game got the more you could defeat someone trough superior mechanics. SC2 is a lot more volatile, even after HoTS release, and you run the huge risk that in a BO1 format not the best player will advance.
People don't want to see "the best player" advance, they want to see THEIR FAVORITE player advance. The whole thing is a fallacy. If your favorite player is the underdog mechanically (which alot of tournament winners like Nestea, Stork, etc, are incidentally), and can only hope to win via clever tactics and planning things out on maps, why aren't people crying about them winning in the Bo1 situation? Different Bo's reward different skill sets, one slightly in the favor of another, for the viewer it honestly doesn't matter.
What you fail to take into account is that there might be a large portion of viewers that root for a player because of his skills and dominance, not some other silly factors. For those fans the player earned their viewership trough consistently good play and domination, this is why I was and still am a Mvp fan, this is why I am a Innovation fan, because their play is so good, so crisp, so sharp, that it is inspiring, it is beautiful. When they stop becoming good, I'll remember them for what they where, I'll praise them, and I'll hope they can reach their past glory (as how Mvp has managed to do so), but I will root for the next dominant player. And I am sure I am not the only one that thinks like this.
Your entire argument hinges on BO1 requiring a whole different skill set to legitimize it, and while I agree it does require a slightly different skill set, I'll argue that that is an inferior skill set and this its a bad thing. A BO1 is easier to prepare for because its just one opponent and one map, it will only show clever play, which while fun, doesn't display resilience, adaptability and play under pressure, to quite the same extent, and those are a lot more traits, and a lot more important traits for a champion to have.
A BO3, never mind several, requires so much more preparation, then BO1, it can also involve creativity, but it more so involves adaptability, as a player has more time to study his opponent and tailor his builds and style accordingly, it requires resilience, as you have to play trough and win several games and finally it requires that good mindset, to be able to keep your cool and your focus trough out the series.
And yes for the viewers it matters who advances, it honestly feels like we get cheated out of seeing more good games if players like Flash or Innovation or Soulkey don't advance, because they are so good and capable of so much.
Emphasis mine, so it is clear what I am replying to.
If there is something I have learned from the SC2 forums and specially reddit, is that most of the current audience care more about the "silly" factors. A prime example is the lack of attention PL gets unless EG-TL wins a match.
No tournament is more legit than OSL, no matter how much unaware SC2 fans are of its history and how much the "this is not Brood War" argument is brought up: it still is the signature individual tournament run by the most stablished eSports organization in the country with the strongest scene. And it is becoming more clear they also have the infrastructure to produce the most skilled players.
Bo1 does emphasize a different mix of skills, but they are not inferior, just different. It is more productive to enjoy the result of this new mix—for example, it makes Flash's starsense look even more impressive— rather than complain. In Fighting Game tournaments, US always plays double elimination while Japan most often plays single elimination. Both formats have certain advantages, but neither is less enjoyable.
On June 18 2013 19:49 Druss wrote: BO1 is a huge mistake, I hope they will review their rules ASAP.
Uhh no it isn't. The games today have been great.
That's a strawman. The argument isn't that a bo1 leads to worse games.
If it doesn't lead to worse games and has been a format good enough to maintain an esport scene for 10ish years--what is the argument exactly?
That is because BW was a lot more of a stable game and a good strong player could, a lot of times hold off weird builds or cheeses by just executing his build better, and the later the game got the more you could defeat someone trough superior mechanics. SC2 is a lot more volatile, even after HoTS release, and you run the huge risk that in a BO1 format not the best player will advance.
People don't want to see "the best player" advance, they want to see THEIR FAVORITE player advance. The whole thing is a fallacy. If your favorite player is the underdog mechanically (which alot of tournament winners like Nestea, Stork, etc, are incidentally), and can only hope to win via clever tactics and planning things out on maps, why aren't people crying about them winning in the Bo1 situation? Different Bo's reward different skill sets, one slightly in the favor of another, for the viewer it honestly doesn't matter.
What you fail to take into account is that there might be a large portion of viewers that root for a player because of his skills and dominance, not some other silly factors. For those fans the player earned their viewership trough consistently good play and domination, this is why I was and still am a Mvp fan, this is why I am a Innovation fan, because their play is so good, so crisp, so sharp, that it is inspiring, it is beautiful. When they stop becoming good, I'll remember them for what they where, I'll praise them, and I'll hope they can reach their past glory (as how Mvp has managed to do so), but I will root for the next dominant player. And I am sure I am not the only one that thinks like this.
Your entire argument hinges on BO1 requiring a whole different skill set to legitimize it, and while I agree it does require a slightly different skill set, I'll argue that that is an inferior skill set and this its a bad thing. A BO1 is easier to prepare for because its just one opponent and one map, it will only show clever play, which while fun, doesn't display resilience, adaptability and play under pressure, to quite the same extent, and those are a lot more traits, and a lot more important traits for a champion to have.
A BO3, never mind several, requires so much more preparation, then BO1, it can also involve creativity, but it more so involves adaptability, as a player has more time to study his opponent and tailor his builds and style accordingly, it requires resilience, as you have to play trough and win several games and finally it requires that good mindset, to be able to keep your cool and your focus trough out the series.
And yes for the viewers it matters who advances, it honestly feels like we get cheated out of seeing more good games if players like Flash or Innovation or Soulkey don't advance, because they are so good and capable of so much.
I disagree with you. A BO3 is as bad as BO1. The true skill is show only on BO9.
On June 18 2013 19:49 Druss wrote: BO1 is a huge mistake, I hope they will review their rules ASAP.
Uhh no it isn't. The games today have been great.
That's a strawman. The argument isn't that a bo1 leads to worse games.
If it doesn't lead to worse games and has been a format good enough to maintain an esport scene for 10ish years--what is the argument exactly?
That is because BW was a lot more of a stable game and a good strong player could, a lot of times hold off weird builds or cheeses by just executing his build better, and the later the game got the more you could defeat someone trough superior mechanics. SC2 is a lot more volatile, even after HoTS release, and you run the huge risk that in a BO1 format not the best player will advance.
People don't want to see "the best player" advance, they want to see THEIR FAVORITE player advance. The whole thing is a fallacy. If your favorite player is the underdog mechanically (which alot of tournament winners like Nestea, Stork, etc, are incidentally), and can only hope to win via clever tactics and planning things out on maps, why aren't people crying about them winning in the Bo1 situation? Different Bo's reward different skill sets, one slightly in the favor of another, for the viewer it honestly doesn't matter.
What you fail to take into account is that there might be a large portion of viewers that root for a player because of his skills and dominance, not some other silly factors. For those fans the player earned their viewership trough consistently good play and domination, this is why I was and still am a Mvp fan, this is why I am a Innovation fan, because their play is so good, so crisp, so sharp, that it is inspiring, it is beautiful. When they stop becoming good, I'll remember them for what they where, I'll praise them, and I'll hope they can reach their past glory (as how Mvp has managed to do so), but I will root for the next dominant player. And I am sure I am not the only one that thinks like this.
Your entire argument hinges on BO1 requiring a whole different skill set to legitimize it, and while I agree it does require a slightly different skill set, I'll argue that that is an inferior skill set and this its a bad thing. A BO1 is easier to prepare for because its just one opponent and one map, it will only show clever play, which while fun, doesn't display resilience, adaptability and play under pressure, to quite the same extent, and those are a lot more traits, and a lot more important traits for a champion to have.
A BO3, never mind several, requires so much more preparation, then BO1, it can also involve creativity, but it more so involves adaptability, as a player has more time to study his opponent and tailor his builds and style accordingly, it requires resilience, as you have to play trough and win several games and finally it requires that good mindset, to be able to keep your cool and your focus trough out the series.
And yes for the viewers it matters who advances, it honestly feels like we get cheated out of seeing more good games if players like Flash or Innovation or Soulkey don't advance, because they are so good and capable of so much.
I disagree with you. A BO3 is as bad as BO1. The true skill is show only on BO9.
Can't prove anything with something less than a Bo21
On June 18 2013 19:49 Druss wrote: BO1 is a huge mistake, I hope they will review their rules ASAP.
Uhh no it isn't. The games today have been great.
That's a strawman. The argument isn't that a bo1 leads to worse games.
If it doesn't lead to worse games and has been a format good enough to maintain an esport scene for 10ish years--what is the argument exactly?
That is because BW was a lot more of a stable game and a good strong player could, a lot of times hold off weird builds or cheeses by just executing his build better, and the later the game got the more you could defeat someone trough superior mechanics. SC2 is a lot more volatile, even after HoTS release, and you run the huge risk that in a BO1 format not the best player will advance.
People don't want to see "the best player" advance, they want to see THEIR FAVORITE player advance. The whole thing is a fallacy. If your favorite player is the underdog mechanically (which alot of tournament winners like Nestea, Stork, etc, are incidentally), and can only hope to win via clever tactics and planning things out on maps, why aren't people crying about them winning in the Bo1 situation? Different Bo's reward different skill sets, one slightly in the favor of another, for the viewer it honestly doesn't matter.
What you fail to take into account is that there might be a large portion of viewers that root for a player because of his skills and dominance, not some other silly factors. For those fans the player earned their viewership trough consistently good play and domination, this is why I was and still am a Mvp fan, this is why I am a Innovation fan, because their play is so good, so crisp, so sharp, that it is inspiring, it is beautiful. When they stop becoming good, I'll remember them for what they where, I'll praise them, and I'll hope they can reach their past glory (as how Mvp has managed to do so), but I will root for the next dominant player. And I am sure I am not the only one that thinks like this.
Your entire argument hinges on BO1 requiring a whole different skill set to legitimize it, and while I agree it does require a slightly different skill set, I'll argue that that is an inferior skill set and this its a bad thing. A BO1 is easier to prepare for because its just one opponent and one map, it will only show clever play, which while fun, doesn't display resilience, adaptability and play under pressure, to quite the same extent, and those are a lot more traits, and a lot more important traits for a champion to have.
A BO3, never mind several, requires so much more preparation, then BO1, it can also involve creativity, but it more so involves adaptability, as a player has more time to study his opponent and tailor his builds and style accordingly, it requires resilience, as you have to play trough and win several games and finally it requires that good mindset, to be able to keep your cool and your focus trough out the series.
And yes for the viewers it matters who advances, it honestly feels like we get cheated out of seeing more good games if players like Flash or Innovation or Soulkey don't advance, because they are so good and capable of so much.
I disagree with you. A BO3 is as bad as BO1. The true skill is show only on BO9.
Can't prove anything with something less than a Bo21
On June 18 2013 19:49 Druss wrote: BO1 is a huge mistake, I hope they will review their rules ASAP.
Uhh no it isn't. The games today have been great.
That's a strawman. The argument isn't that a bo1 leads to worse games.
If it doesn't lead to worse games and has been a format good enough to maintain an esport scene for 10ish years--what is the argument exactly?
That is because BW was a lot more of a stable game and a good strong player could, a lot of times hold off weird builds or cheeses by just executing his build better, and the later the game got the more you could defeat someone trough superior mechanics. SC2 is a lot more volatile, even after HoTS release, and you run the huge risk that in a BO1 format not the best player will advance.
People don't want to see "the best player" advance, they want to see THEIR FAVORITE player advance. The whole thing is a fallacy. If your favorite player is the underdog mechanically (which alot of tournament winners like Nestea, Stork, etc, are incidentally), and can only hope to win via clever tactics and planning things out on maps, why aren't people crying about them winning in the Bo1 situation? Different Bo's reward different skill sets, one slightly in the favor of another, for the viewer it honestly doesn't matter.
What you fail to take into account is that there might be a large portion of viewers that root for a player because of his skills and dominance, not some other silly factors. For those fans the player earned their viewership trough consistently good play and domination, this is why I was and still am a Mvp fan, this is why I am a Innovation fan, because their play is so good, so crisp, so sharp, that it is inspiring, it is beautiful. When they stop becoming good, I'll remember them for what they where, I'll praise them, and I'll hope they can reach their past glory (as how Mvp has managed to do so), but I will root for the next dominant player. And I am sure I am not the only one that thinks like this.
Your entire argument hinges on BO1 requiring a whole different skill set to legitimize it, and while I agree it does require a slightly different skill set, I'll argue that that is an inferior skill set and this its a bad thing. A BO1 is easier to prepare for because its just one opponent and one map, it will only show clever play, which while fun, doesn't display resilience, adaptability and play under pressure, to quite the same extent, and those are a lot more traits, and a lot more important traits for a champion to have.
A BO3, never mind several, requires so much more preparation, then BO1, it can also involve creativity, but it more so involves adaptability, as a player has more time to study his opponent and tailor his builds and style accordingly, it requires resilience, as you have to play trough and win several games and finally it requires that good mindset, to be able to keep your cool and your focus trough out the series.
And yes for the viewers it matters who advances, it honestly feels like we get cheated out of seeing more good games if players like Flash or Innovation or Soulkey don't advance, because they are so good and capable of so much.
I disagree with you. A BO3 is as bad as BO1. The true skill is show only on BO9.
Can't prove anything with something less than a Bo21
Fair point
bo99 is the only true way imo. it has been done before so we know it's viable. do a full round robin between all 32 players, bo99 on 99 different maps, top 16 advance to the ro16 and from there on it's just a single elim bo99 bracket.
On June 18 2013 19:49 Druss wrote: BO1 is a huge mistake, I hope they will review their rules ASAP.
Uhh no it isn't. The games today have been great.
That's a strawman. The argument isn't that a bo1 leads to worse games.
If it doesn't lead to worse games and has been a format good enough to maintain an esport scene for 10ish years--what is the argument exactly?
That is because BW was a lot more of a stable game and a good strong player could, a lot of times hold off weird builds or cheeses by just executing his build better, and the later the game got the more you could defeat someone trough superior mechanics. SC2 is a lot more volatile, even after HoTS release, and you run the huge risk that in a BO1 format not the best player will advance.
People don't want to see "the best player" advance, they want to see THEIR FAVORITE player advance. The whole thing is a fallacy. If your favorite player is the underdog mechanically (which alot of tournament winners like Nestea, Stork, etc, are incidentally), and can only hope to win via clever tactics and planning things out on maps, why aren't people crying about them winning in the Bo1 situation? Different Bo's reward different skill sets, one slightly in the favor of another, for the viewer it honestly doesn't matter.
What you fail to take into account is that there might be a large portion of viewers that root for a player because of his skills and dominance, not some other silly factors. For those fans the player earned their viewership trough consistently good play and domination, this is why I was and still am a Mvp fan, this is why I am a Innovation fan, because their play is so good, so crisp, so sharp, that it is inspiring, it is beautiful. When they stop becoming good, I'll remember them for what they where, I'll praise them, and I'll hope they can reach their past glory (as how Mvp has managed to do so), but I will root for the next dominant player. And I am sure I am not the only one that thinks like this.
Your entire argument hinges on BO1 requiring a whole different skill set to legitimize it, and while I agree it does require a slightly different skill set, I'll argue that that is an inferior skill set and this its a bad thing. A BO1 is easier to prepare for because its just one opponent and one map, it will only show clever play, which while fun, doesn't display resilience, adaptability and play under pressure, to quite the same extent, and those are a lot more traits, and a lot more important traits for a champion to have.
A BO3, never mind several, requires so much more preparation, then BO1, it can also involve creativity, but it more so involves adaptability, as a player has more time to study his opponent and tailor his builds and style accordingly, it requires resilience, as you have to play trough and win several games and finally it requires that good mindset, to be able to keep your cool and your focus trough out the series.
And yes for the viewers it matters who advances, it honestly feels like we get cheated out of seeing more good games if players like Flash or Innovation or Soulkey don't advance, because they are so good and capable of so much.
Emphasis mine, so it is clear what I am replying to.
If there is something I have learned from the SC2 forums and specially reddit, is that most of the current audience care more about the "silly" factors. A prime example is the lack of attention PL gets unless EG-TL wins a match.
No tournament is more legit than OSL, no matter how much unaware SC2 fans are of its history and how much the "this is not Brood War" argument is brought up: it still is the signature individual tournament run by the most stablished eSports organization in the country with the strongest scene. And it is becoming more clear they also have the infrastructure to produce the most skilled players.
Bo1 does emphasize a different mix of skills, but they are not inferior, just different. It is more productive to enjoy the result of this new mix—for example, it makes Flash's starsense look even more impressive— rather than complain. In Fighting Game tournaments, US always plays double elimination while Japan most often plays single elimination. Both formats have certain advantages, but neither is less enjoyable.
At the end of the day, content producers have to please the viewers, not the opposite. You can't brute force something by saying it's 'tradition', 'it's the most efficient system', 'it's the stablished organization', whatever. If enough people bitch about and complain, someone has to give in, and people should complain if they are not pleased That, or OGN says 'fuck SC2, what you want can't fit our schedule'
On June 18 2013 19:49 Druss wrote: BO1 is a huge mistake, I hope they will review their rules ASAP.
Uhh no it isn't. The games today have been great.
That's a strawman. The argument isn't that a bo1 leads to worse games.
If it doesn't lead to worse games and has been a format good enough to maintain an esport scene for 10ish years--what is the argument exactly?
That is because BW was a lot more of a stable game and a good strong player could, a lot of times hold off weird builds or cheeses by just executing his build better, and the later the game got the more you could defeat someone trough superior mechanics. SC2 is a lot more volatile, even after HoTS release, and you run the huge risk that in a BO1 format not the best player will advance.
People don't want to see "the best player" advance, they want to see THEIR FAVORITE player advance. The whole thing is a fallacy. If your favorite player is the underdog mechanically (which alot of tournament winners like Nestea, Stork, etc, are incidentally), and can only hope to win via clever tactics and planning things out on maps, why aren't people crying about them winning in the Bo1 situation? Different Bo's reward different skill sets, one slightly in the favor of another, for the viewer it honestly doesn't matter.
What you fail to take into account is that there might be a large portion of viewers that root for a player because of his skills and dominance, not some other silly factors. For those fans the player earned their viewership trough consistently good play and domination, this is why I was and still am a Mvp fan, this is why I am a Innovation fan, because their play is so good, so crisp, so sharp, that it is inspiring, it is beautiful. When they stop becoming good, I'll remember them for what they where, I'll praise them, and I'll hope they can reach their past glory (as how Mvp has managed to do so), but I will root for the next dominant player. And I am sure I am not the only one that thinks like this.
Your entire argument hinges on BO1 requiring a whole different skill set to legitimize it, and while I agree it does require a slightly different skill set, I'll argue that that is an inferior skill set and this its a bad thing. A BO1 is easier to prepare for because its just one opponent and one map, it will only show clever play, which while fun, doesn't display resilience, adaptability and play under pressure, to quite the same extent, and those are a lot more traits, and a lot more important traits for a champion to have.
A BO3, never mind several, requires so much more preparation, then BO1, it can also involve creativity, but it more so involves adaptability, as a player has more time to study his opponent and tailor his builds and style accordingly, it requires resilience, as you have to play trough and win several games and finally it requires that good mindset, to be able to keep your cool and your focus trough out the series.
And yes for the viewers it matters who advances, it honestly feels like we get cheated out of seeing more good games if players like Flash or Innovation or Soulkey don't advance, because they are so good and capable of so much.
Emphasis mine, so it is clear what I am replying to.
If there is something I have learned from the SC2 forums and specially reddit, is that most of the current audience care more about the "silly" factors. A prime example is the lack of attention PL gets unless EG-TL wins a match.
No tournament is more legit than OSL, no matter how much unaware SC2 fans are of its history and how much the "this is not Brood War" argument is brought up: it still is the signature individual tournament run by the most stablished eSports organization in the country with the strongest scene. And it is becoming more clear they also have the infrastructure to produce the most skilled players.
Bo1 does emphasize a different mix of skills, but they are not inferior, just different. It is more productive to enjoy the result of this new mix—for example, it makes Flash's starsense look even more impressive— rather than complain. In Fighting Game tournaments, US always plays double elimination while Japan most often plays single elimination. Both formats have certain advantages, but neither is less enjoyable.
At the end of the day, content producers have to please the viewers, not the opposite. You can't brute force something by saying it's 'tradition', 'it's the most efficient system', 'it's the stablished organization', whatever. If enough people bitch about and complain, someone has to give in, and people should complain if they are not pleased That, or OGN says 'fuck SC2, what you want can't fit our schedule'
Yes. Because we here on TL really know what korean people, who watch at their homes (TV), want. Oh wait. We are the special snowflake of SC2.
On June 18 2013 19:49 Druss wrote: BO1 is a huge mistake, I hope they will review their rules ASAP.
Uhh no it isn't. The games today have been great.
That's a strawman. The argument isn't that a bo1 leads to worse games.
If it doesn't lead to worse games and has been a format good enough to maintain an esport scene for 10ish years--what is the argument exactly?
That is because BW was a lot more of a stable game and a good strong player could, a lot of times hold off weird builds or cheeses by just executing his build better, and the later the game got the more you could defeat someone trough superior mechanics. SC2 is a lot more volatile, even after HoTS release, and you run the huge risk that in a BO1 format not the best player will advance.
People don't want to see "the best player" advance, they want to see THEIR FAVORITE player advance. The whole thing is a fallacy. If your favorite player is the underdog mechanically (which alot of tournament winners like Nestea, Stork, etc, are incidentally), and can only hope to win via clever tactics and planning things out on maps, why aren't people crying about them winning in the Bo1 situation? Different Bo's reward different skill sets, one slightly in the favor of another, for the viewer it honestly doesn't matter.
What you fail to take into account is that there might be a large portion of viewers that root for a player because of his skills and dominance, not some other silly factors. For those fans the player earned their viewership trough consistently good play and domination, this is why I was and still am a Mvp fan, this is why I am a Innovation fan, because their play is so good, so crisp, so sharp, that it is inspiring, it is beautiful. When they stop becoming good, I'll remember them for what they where, I'll praise them, and I'll hope they can reach their past glory (as how Mvp has managed to do so), but I will root for the next dominant player. And I am sure I am not the only one that thinks like this.
Your entire argument hinges on BO1 requiring a whole different skill set to legitimize it, and while I agree it does require a slightly different skill set, I'll argue that that is an inferior skill set and this its a bad thing. A BO1 is easier to prepare for because its just one opponent and one map, it will only show clever play, which while fun, doesn't display resilience, adaptability and play under pressure, to quite the same extent, and those are a lot more traits, and a lot more important traits for a champion to have.
A BO3, never mind several, requires so much more preparation, then BO1, it can also involve creativity, but it more so involves adaptability, as a player has more time to study his opponent and tailor his builds and style accordingly, it requires resilience, as you have to play trough and win several games and finally it requires that good mindset, to be able to keep your cool and your focus trough out the series.
And yes for the viewers it matters who advances, it honestly feels like we get cheated out of seeing more good games if players like Flash or Innovation or Soulkey don't advance, because they are so good and capable of so much.
Emphasis mine, so it is clear what I am replying to.
If there is something I have learned from the SC2 forums and specially reddit, is that most of the current audience care more about the "silly" factors. A prime example is the lack of attention PL gets unless EG-TL wins a match.
No tournament is more legit than OSL, no matter how much unaware SC2 fans are of its history and how much the "this is not Brood War" argument is brought up: it still is the signature individual tournament run by the most stablished eSports organization in the country with the strongest scene. And it is becoming more clear they also have the infrastructure to produce the most skilled players.
Bo1 does emphasize a different mix of skills, but they are not inferior, just different. It is more productive to enjoy the result of this new mix—for example, it makes Flash's starsense look even more impressive— rather than complain. In Fighting Game tournaments, US always plays double elimination while Japan most often plays single elimination. Both formats have certain advantages, but neither is less enjoyable.
At the end of the day, content producers have to please the viewers, not the opposite. You can't brute force something by saying it's 'tradition', 'it's the most efficient system', 'it's the stablished organization', whatever. If enough people bitch about and complain, someone has to give in, and people should complain if they are not pleased That, or OGN says 'fuck SC2, what you want can't fit our schedule'
Yes. Because we here on TL really know what korean people, who watch at their homes (TV), want. Oh wait. We are the special snowflake of SC2.
Where was I talking about TL in my post, funny guy?
I don't have any numbers aside from the poll in the OP, indeed. But what I'm saying is that, if OGN realizes the majority of its viewers are not pleased with this bo1 format, they have to change, or they'll die embraced with their 'tradition' and 'stablished system' (by 'they', I mean their SC2 tournament). And the only way to know is if things are going wrong is if people complain on forums, twitter, facebook, e-mails (including korean fans. I have no idea what they think about this). Staying silent solves nothing.
That's a strawman. The argument isn't that a bo1 leads to worse games.
If it doesn't lead to worse games and has been a format good enough to maintain an esport scene for 10ish years--what is the argument exactly?
That is because BW was a lot more of a stable game and a good strong player could, a lot of times hold off weird builds or cheeses by just executing his build better, and the later the game got the more you could defeat someone trough superior mechanics. SC2 is a lot more volatile, even after HoTS release, and you run the huge risk that in a BO1 format not the best player will advance.
People don't want to see "the best player" advance, they want to see THEIR FAVORITE player advance. The whole thing is a fallacy. If your favorite player is the underdog mechanically (which alot of tournament winners like Nestea, Stork, etc, are incidentally), and can only hope to win via clever tactics and planning things out on maps, why aren't people crying about them winning in the Bo1 situation? Different Bo's reward different skill sets, one slightly in the favor of another, for the viewer it honestly doesn't matter.
What you fail to take into account is that there might be a large portion of viewers that root for a player because of his skills and dominance, not some other silly factors. For those fans the player earned their viewership trough consistently good play and domination, this is why I was and still am a Mvp fan, this is why I am a Innovation fan, because their play is so good, so crisp, so sharp, that it is inspiring, it is beautiful. When they stop becoming good, I'll remember them for what they where, I'll praise them, and I'll hope they can reach their past glory (as how Mvp has managed to do so), but I will root for the next dominant player. And I am sure I am not the only one that thinks like this.
Your entire argument hinges on BO1 requiring a whole different skill set to legitimize it, and while I agree it does require a slightly different skill set, I'll argue that that is an inferior skill set and this its a bad thing. A BO1 is easier to prepare for because its just one opponent and one map, it will only show clever play, which while fun, doesn't display resilience, adaptability and play under pressure, to quite the same extent, and those are a lot more traits, and a lot more important traits for a champion to have.
A BO3, never mind several, requires so much more preparation, then BO1, it can also involve creativity, but it more so involves adaptability, as a player has more time to study his opponent and tailor his builds and style accordingly, it requires resilience, as you have to play trough and win several games and finally it requires that good mindset, to be able to keep your cool and your focus trough out the series.
And yes for the viewers it matters who advances, it honestly feels like we get cheated out of seeing more good games if players like Flash or Innovation or Soulkey don't advance, because they are so good and capable of so much.
Emphasis mine, so it is clear what I am replying to.
If there is something I have learned from the SC2 forums and specially reddit, is that most of the current audience care more about the "silly" factors. A prime example is the lack of attention PL gets unless EG-TL wins a match.
No tournament is more legit than OSL, no matter how much unaware SC2 fans are of its history and how much the "this is not Brood War" argument is brought up: it still is the signature individual tournament run by the most stablished eSports organization in the country with the strongest scene. And it is becoming more clear they also have the infrastructure to produce the most skilled players.
Bo1 does emphasize a different mix of skills, but they are not inferior, just different. It is more productive to enjoy the result of this new mix—for example, it makes Flash's starsense look even more impressive— rather than complain. In Fighting Game tournaments, US always plays double elimination while Japan most often plays single elimination. Both formats have certain advantages, but neither is less enjoyable.
At the end of the day, content producers have to please the viewers, not the opposite. You can't brute force something by saying it's 'tradition', 'it's the most efficient system', 'it's the stablished organization', whatever. If enough people bitch about and complain, someone has to give in, and people should complain if they are not pleased That, or OGN says 'fuck SC2, what you want can't fit our schedule'
Yes. Because we here on TL really know what korean people, who watch at their homes (TV), want. Oh wait. We are the special snowflake of SC2.
Where was I talking about TL in my post, funny guy?
I don't have any numbers aside from the poll in the OP, indeed. But what I'm saying is that, if OGN realizes the majority of its viewers are not pleased with this bo1 format, they have to change, or they'll die embraced with their 'tradition' and 'stablished system' (by 'they', I mean their SC2 tournament). And the only way to know is if things are going wrong is if people complain on forums, twitter, facebook, e-mails (including korean fans. I have no idea what they think about this). Staying silent solves nothing.
What OGN viewers, funniest guy. Everyone complaining is a GSL/Tastosis fanboy. Please come to earth.
On June 18 2013 21:19 nihlon wrote: [quote] That's a strawman. The argument isn't that a bo1 leads to worse games.
If it doesn't lead to worse games and has been a format good enough to maintain an esport scene for 10ish years--what is the argument exactly?
That is because BW was a lot more of a stable game and a good strong player could, a lot of times hold off weird builds or cheeses by just executing his build better, and the later the game got the more you could defeat someone trough superior mechanics. SC2 is a lot more volatile, even after HoTS release, and you run the huge risk that in a BO1 format not the best player will advance.
People don't want to see "the best player" advance, they want to see THEIR FAVORITE player advance. The whole thing is a fallacy. If your favorite player is the underdog mechanically (which alot of tournament winners like Nestea, Stork, etc, are incidentally), and can only hope to win via clever tactics and planning things out on maps, why aren't people crying about them winning in the Bo1 situation? Different Bo's reward different skill sets, one slightly in the favor of another, for the viewer it honestly doesn't matter.
What you fail to take into account is that there might be a large portion of viewers that root for a player because of his skills and dominance, not some other silly factors. For those fans the player earned their viewership trough consistently good play and domination, this is why I was and still am a Mvp fan, this is why I am a Innovation fan, because their play is so good, so crisp, so sharp, that it is inspiring, it is beautiful. When they stop becoming good, I'll remember them for what they where, I'll praise them, and I'll hope they can reach their past glory (as how Mvp has managed to do so), but I will root for the next dominant player. And I am sure I am not the only one that thinks like this.
Your entire argument hinges on BO1 requiring a whole different skill set to legitimize it, and while I agree it does require a slightly different skill set, I'll argue that that is an inferior skill set and this its a bad thing. A BO1 is easier to prepare for because its just one opponent and one map, it will only show clever play, which while fun, doesn't display resilience, adaptability and play under pressure, to quite the same extent, and those are a lot more traits, and a lot more important traits for a champion to have.
A BO3, never mind several, requires so much more preparation, then BO1, it can also involve creativity, but it more so involves adaptability, as a player has more time to study his opponent and tailor his builds and style accordingly, it requires resilience, as you have to play trough and win several games and finally it requires that good mindset, to be able to keep your cool and your focus trough out the series.
And yes for the viewers it matters who advances, it honestly feels like we get cheated out of seeing more good games if players like Flash or Innovation or Soulkey don't advance, because they are so good and capable of so much.
Emphasis mine, so it is clear what I am replying to.
If there is something I have learned from the SC2 forums and specially reddit, is that most of the current audience care more about the "silly" factors. A prime example is the lack of attention PL gets unless EG-TL wins a match.
No tournament is more legit than OSL, no matter how much unaware SC2 fans are of its history and how much the "this is not Brood War" argument is brought up: it still is the signature individual tournament run by the most stablished eSports organization in the country with the strongest scene. And it is becoming more clear they also have the infrastructure to produce the most skilled players.
Bo1 does emphasize a different mix of skills, but they are not inferior, just different. It is more productive to enjoy the result of this new mix—for example, it makes Flash's starsense look even more impressive— rather than complain. In Fighting Game tournaments, US always plays double elimination while Japan most often plays single elimination. Both formats have certain advantages, but neither is less enjoyable.
At the end of the day, content producers have to please the viewers, not the opposite. You can't brute force something by saying it's 'tradition', 'it's the most efficient system', 'it's the stablished organization', whatever. If enough people bitch about and complain, someone has to give in, and people should complain if they are not pleased That, or OGN says 'fuck SC2, what you want can't fit our schedule'
Yes. Because we here on TL really know what korean people, who watch at their homes (TV), want. Oh wait. We are the special snowflake of SC2.
Where was I talking about TL in my post, funny guy?
I don't have any numbers aside from the poll in the OP, indeed. But what I'm saying is that, if OGN realizes the majority of its viewers are not pleased with this bo1 format, they have to change, or they'll die embraced with their 'tradition' and 'stablished system' (by 'they', I mean their SC2 tournament). And the only way to know is if things are going wrong is if people complain on forums, twitter, facebook, e-mails (including korean fans. I have no idea what they think about this). Staying silent solves nothing.
What OGN viewers, funniest guy. Everyone complaining is a GSL/Tastosis fanboy. Please come to earth.
As I said, I have no idea what korean viewers think. Are you sure they are all ok with bo1? If so, fine.
Also, these GSL/Tastosis fanboys should have some value to them, otherwise there wouldn't be an english stream and an OGN guy talking to people on reddit talking to fans. As far as I know, SC2 is not that popular in Korea, so these people 'fanboys' probably interest them
EPT
Flash Woongjin.
Soulkey LG-IM.
Flying 8thTeam.![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/Zicon_small.png)
14 · ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/Picon_small.png)
10 · ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/Ticon_small.png)
8
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gg![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/XMMyLo4.jpg)
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