On June 10 2013 09:49 EFermi wrote: Hellbats are just a horribly designed unit. Terran shouldn't have a cheap tanky close range unit, that on top of everything, does ridiculous amounts of damage.
Yeah I guess we can leave the cheap, extremely tanky close range units with the ability to travel quickly when teched into to Zealots and Roaches.
As a terran who thinks protoss is a stupid race, I agree hellbats should be nerfed somehow. If it is possible to be efficient against them, it's neither easy nor consistent, and the mind games are playing hell with my thinking. Appreciate that they were not nerfed immediately though.
I really hope to see Hellbat been discussed by Terran players on artosis meta. To really see some insights from the pros.
Right now I think the best idea is actually to not allow the medivac to boost while carrying mech units. But this does shut down hellbat drop completely. or, lower the damage of the hellbat, and increases the splash radius. So that it is still good in battles, but require to drop all 4 hellbats out to deal that insane 2 hits an scv. Also raise the risk of carrying 400 minerals worth of hellbat in one cargo.
I am a terran myself. So this thread is not about balance whine, but more like "is mutas too strong in ZvZ" kind of thing.
On June 10 2013 10:16 bhfberserk wrote: I really hope to see Hellbat been discussed by Terran players on artosis meta. To really see some insights from the pros.
Right now I think the best idea is actually to not allow the medivac to boost while carrying mech units. But this does shut down hellbat drop completely. or, lower the damage of the hellbat, and increases the splash radius. So that it is still good in battles, but require to drop all 4 hellbats out to deal that insane 2 hits an scv. Also raise the risk of carrying 400 minerals worth of hellbat in one cargo.
I am a terran myself. So this thread is not about balance whine, but more like "is mutas too strong in ZvZ" kind of thing.
I think theognis already said that the hellbat may need adjusting in a previous episode of meta.
EDIT: I may be wrong and imagining things, but I think I remember this from a few episodes ago.
I think they should just make the hellion and hellbat seperate units altogether. no transformation, then they can make it cost more without messing with the hellion
On June 10 2013 09:49 EFermi wrote: Hellbats are just a horribly designed unit. Terran shouldn't have a cheap tanky close range unit, that on top of everything, does ridiculous amounts of damage.
Yeah I guess we can leave the cheap, extremely tanky close range units with the ability to travel quickly when teched into to Zealots and Roaches.
Except they don't do aoe damage, nor do protoss and zerg have an even cheaper, massable unit that does crazy amounts of DPS and can be microed like a boss.
Does anyone think that giving the hellbat a minor gas cost could balance things out? maybe even have a gas cost for helion transformation itself (Hellbat requires a fuel boost? :D )
On June 10 2013 09:51 CeliosB wrote: i think they really need to change it back to mech, it would make the drops weaker which is the main problem with them and it would also make mech more viable vs protoss as archons wouldnt do extra damage to them
And how would you address the issue with the Hellbat as a tank vs Protoss then ? As you rightly said Archons would lose their bonus damage against them. Protoss had issues dealing with Hellbats in Bio compositions in the beta, because Zealots and Archons could not engage anymore and the Bio could do what it wanted. That was one reason why the Hellbats got the Bio tag and became pretty useless against Toss. Afterwards Hellbats got optimized to not rip through lings that hard but do darn well against Zealots. Removing the Bio tag only would make Hellbats even better against Protoss as the first version before the Bio change.
But if people really think that drops are a problem. It is just dropping Hellbats on top of the opponent, because Hellbats fire almost instantly. They could easily add a crouch animation like with the Thors, which would result in the Hellbats being nearly useless in chasing situations, while still being the unbeatable tanks. Medivac drops would still work but it wouldn't be the drop and pick up instantly anymore, but give a timing to snipe the hellbats.
The thing about comparing mutas wars to hellbat wars...
Muta vs muta is the the most boring thing to watch next to WOL's roach wars. No one wants to engage and both players just dance around for 5-10 minutes until finally a fight is forced and the winner is instantly decided.
Hellbat vs hellbat is anything but boring. Leave hellbats alone, they make for good TvTs, and are fine in every other matchup.
On June 10 2013 10:30 FeyFey wrote: But if people really think that drops are a problem. It is just dropping Hellbats on top of the opponent, because Hellbats fire almost instantly. They could easily add a crouch animation like with the Thors, which would result in the Hellbats being nearly useless in chasing situations, while still being the unbeatable tanks.
I think the game is pretty balanced at the moment, why would you say Hellbats need a nerf...? The game is in a decent condition now compared to the last era of WoL, I think even pro gamers say the game is nicely balanced right now
On June 10 2013 10:32 ottoottoottootto wrote: I think the game is pretty balanced at the moment, why would you say Hellbats need a nerf...? The game is in a decent condition now compared to the last era of WoL, I think even pro gamers say the game is nicely balanced right now
Idra said the game is balanced, of all people.
Well, at least in his indirect way. Instead of mass insulting every Terran and Toss unit he's limiting it to Hellbats, from what I've heard.
On June 10 2013 10:30 havok55 wrote: The thing about comparing mutas wars to hellbat wars...
Muta vs muta is the the most boring thing to watch next to WOL's roach wars. No one wants to engage and both players just dance around for 5-10 minutes until finally a fight is forced and the winner is instantly decided.
Hellbat vs hellbat is anything but boring. Leave hellbats alone, they make for good TvTs, and are fine in every other matchup.
fuck this.
hellbat vs hellbat is just stupid. it's throwing medivacs at your opponent and not caring whether you lose them or you get a big hit. both players are put into a situation where they keep doing this until they hit a windfall, and at that point it doesn't matter how many resources they lost.
On June 10 2013 10:16 bhfberserk wrote: I really hope to see Hellbat been discussed by Terran players on artosis meta. To really see some insights from the pros.
Right now I think the best idea is actually to not allow the medivac to boost while carrying mech units. But this does shut down hellbat drop completely. or, lower the damage of the hellbat, and increases the splash radius. So that it is still good in battles, but require to drop all 4 hellbats out to deal that insane 2 hits an scv. Also raise the risk of carrying 400 minerals worth of hellbat in one cargo.
I am a terran myself. So this thread is not about balance whine, but more like "is mutas too strong in ZvZ" kind of thing.
I think theognis already said that the hellbat may need adjusting in a previous episode of meta.
EDIT: I may be wrong and imagining things, but I think I remember this from a few episodes ago.
I don't remember exactly either. But I remember Theognis says that Hellbat is really important in late game against Z and P. If they have high mineral late game, mass re-max zealots/zergling is really hard to deal with. Hellbat really helps Terran in that case. This is a interesting point.
On June 10 2013 10:16 bhfberserk wrote: I really hope to see Hellbat been discussed by Terran players on artosis meta. To really see some insights from the pros.
Right now I think the best idea is actually to not allow the medivac to boost while carrying mech units. But this does shut down hellbat drop completely. or, lower the damage of the hellbat, and increases the splash radius. So that it is still good in battles, but require to drop all 4 hellbats out to deal that insane 2 hits an scv. Also raise the risk of carrying 400 minerals worth of hellbat in one cargo.
I am a terran myself. So this thread is not about balance whine, but more like "is mutas too strong in ZvZ" kind of thing.
I think theognis already said that the hellbat may need adjusting in a previous episode of meta.
EDIT: I may be wrong and imagining things, but I think I remember this from a few episodes ago.
I don't remember exactly either. But I remember Theognis says that Hellbat is really important in late game against Z and P. If they have high mineral late game, mass re-max zealots/zergling is really hard to deal with. Hellbat really helps Terran in that case. This is a interesting point.
That is true as well.
What about adjusting the hellbat in some way such that hellbat drops actually cost something or adjusting their ability to kill workers while changing the zealot to have more shields and less hp so that EMP is more effective against that composition? Maybe instead of 100hp/50 shield 80 hp/70 shield? Or 90 hp/60 shield? This will also effect the midgame as well though as zealots will have less hp to use armor with so it'd be tricky.
I don't play much TvT, but hellbats are such a cheap and effective investment to wipe out a mineral line, either another form of drop needs to be buffed, risking messing up the meta game that way, defenses against hell bats needs to be buffed, or hellbats need to be nerfed. Right now they are just so much better than every other form of TvT worker harass.
i think every single person in this thread can universally agree that hellbat drops in the early game are just retarded.
whether they're imbalanced in the later stages of the game, or whether the medivac itself is a problem is up for debate, but because it's pretty clear that early game worker massacres are just stupid, they should just require transformation servos for hellbats.
it addresses everything wrong with the earlygame while leaving the other issues alone.
EPT
