EPTI don't think that hellbats are a problem as part of the general army composition. Nor do I consider medivac boosters a problem either. It is the interaction between the two, particularly at earlier sections of the game where investment in static defence has a higher opportunity cost. And I think that is where any fix needs to be targeted; somehow impacting on the combination of the two units.
Hellbats Review - Page 20
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Brett
Australia3823 Posts
I don't think that hellbats are a problem as part of the general army composition. Nor do I consider medivac boosters a problem either. It is the interaction between the two, particularly at earlier sections of the game where investment in static defence has a higher opportunity cost. And I think that is where any fix needs to be targeted; somehow impacting on the combination of the two units. | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On June 10 2013 12:26 Brett wrote: I think the problem is hellbat drops. Specifically the fact that medivacs give the hellbats near guaranteed access to the mineral line. The terran employing the drops is dumping predominantly minerals for guaranteed damage to the opponent's economy. You force the player to run all their workers, while also potentially forcing static defence, killing workers, or some combination of the three. The time spent not mining alone, because of live hellbats near your mineral line and geysers, is potentially enough to balance the cost (since hellbats are tanky and being healed by the unit that ferried them there, they do not die in a second or two). People comparing hellbat drops to reaver drops really didn't understand BW at all. I don't think that hellbats are a problem as part of the general army composition. Nor do I consider medivac boosters a problem either. It is the interaction between the two, particularly at earlier sections of the game where investment in static defence has a higher opportunity cost. And I think that is where any fix needs to be targeted; somehow impacting on the combination of the two units. I generally agree with this. If you see it coming and react perfectly in the early game, they will still get to your workers unless you pull them before the medivac gets there and you hide them. | ||
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NDDseer
Australia204 Posts
They stay a potent threat and promote harassment, multipronged style play but don't need a disproportionately large amount of defensive units/anti-micro to kill them. Problem solved. | ||
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cullam
United States20 Posts
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Rainbow Cuddles
United States486 Posts
I think the damage is fine but maybe lower it's attack speed or make it only loadable as a hellion. The harass is too good. | ||
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kwantumszuperpozishn
125 Posts
1. 125 minerals, 25 gas (it has to have gas, right?) 2. Same HP as hellion 3. repair only, no heal Done. HoTS is not perfect! | ||
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WhalesFromSpace
390 Posts
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peidongyang
Canada2084 Posts
-they could make turbovacing cost 25 energy Kappa (could be an upgrade on tech lab starport again 50/50, same time as combat shields which would remove this cost) then again im not even gm and these suggestions and better ones have already been suggested so meh so, i know im gonna get a lot of flame for this and i'm not going to justify why but instead of storm doing 80 over 4 seconds, i honestly think it should do 50 over 2 seconds, then 3 over 2 seconds. it honestly just feels more right oo | ||
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Savant
United States379 Posts
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On June 10 2013 12:45 kwantumszuperpozishn wrote: My recommendations: 1. 125 minerals, 25 gas (it has to have gas, right?) 2. Same HP as hellion 3. repair only, no heal Done. HoTS is not perfect! So... you want a slower shorter range hellion for more? That wont fly... it would make it pretty worthless outside of maybe a single early drop or something. | ||
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saddaromma
1129 Posts
Also, terrans already were doing lots of drops, whereas P and Z hardly did any harass besides some run-bys. So they decide to give more drop-harass options to terran. Can't find any logic behind this. Sure they gave oracle to protoss, but they made it cheese unit rather than strategic. I really question current dev.team's ability to maintain and grow SC2. | ||
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denzelz
United States604 Posts
Hellbat openings changed the entire dynamic by making EVERY OTHER OPENING not viable anymore. Every time MVP opened with something different than Hellbats, he was way behind and had to catch up in the mid game. That's just insane. | ||
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Serpico
4285 Posts
On June 10 2013 12:53 saddaromma wrote: I can't still understand how in the earth blizzard came up with hellbat and warhound. The most boring one-dimensional units which you could possibly ask for. Are they so much deep in creativity crysis? Also, terrans already were doing lots of drops, whereas P and Z hardly did any harass besides some run-bys. So they decide to give more drop-harass options to terran. Can't find any logic behind this. Sure they gave oracle to protoss, but they made it cheese unit rather than strategic. I really question current dev.team's ability to maintain and grow SC2. The problem is they want to do everything new and not use brood war units in expansions. They're limiting their pool of potential units to round out the game because they keep wanting to have "their units" in the game. | ||
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Phoenix2003
126 Posts
On June 10 2013 12:53 saddaromma wrote: I can't still understand how in the earth blizzard came up with hellbat and warhound. The most boring one-dimensional units which you could possibly ask for. Are they so much deep in creativity crysis? Also, terrans already were doing lots of drops, whereas P and Z hardly did any harass besides some run-bys. So they decide to give more drop-harass options to terran. Can't find any logic behind this. Sure they gave oracle to protoss, but they made it cheese unit rather than strategic. I really question current dev.team's ability to maintain and grow SC2. Blizzard's love for terran is soooooooo strong. | ||
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_Search_
Canada180 Posts
Hellions cost 100 minerals. Hellbats cost 100/50. Servo upgrade stays the same. This way players who like mass Hellbats can research the upgrade and have Hellbats for no gas cost while people who only want to build 6-8 for drops can spend the gas. | ||
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AnomalySC2
United States2073 Posts
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On June 10 2013 13:21 _Search_ wrote: Here's my solution. I thought of it about a month ago. Hellions cost 100 minerals. Hellbats cost 100/50. Servo upgrade stays the same. This way players who like mass Hellbats can research the upgrade and have Hellbats for no gas cost while people who only want to build 6-8 for drops can spend the gas. I like this actually. On June 10 2013 13:21 AnomalySC2 wrote: To open with hellbat drops requires a significant investment on the aggressor's side, I think it's fair that if you aren't somewhat prepared for it then you will take a lot of damage. It's not like Terran is the only race with some extremely powerful options, all the races have some scary stuff up their sleeves in HoTS. It does? Or is this like the same significant investment that happens in ZvZ when they open muta (pre spore buff)? | ||
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saddaromma
1129 Posts
On June 10 2013 13:21 AnomalySC2 wrote: To open with hellbat drops requires a significant investment on the aggressor's side, I think it's fair that if you aren't somewhat prepared for it then you will take a lot of damage. It's not like Terran is the only race with some extremely powerful options, all the races have some scary stuff up their sleeves in HoTS. Yeah, but thread is about TvT. | ||
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Phoenix2003
126 Posts
On June 10 2013 13:21 AnomalySC2 wrote: To open with hellbat drops requires a significant investment on the aggressor's side, I think it's fair that if you aren't somewhat prepared for it then you will take a lot of damage. It's not like Terran is the only race with some extremely powerful options, all the races have some scary stuff up their sleeves in HoTS. Wait, what? What extremely powerful harassment options do P has I wonder? That's not nullified by a single missile turret, by the way. Something's that's guaranteed to do damage to terran no matter what the preparation, like winbat drops. This ought to be good. | ||
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AnomalySC2
United States2073 Posts
Yeah and removing hellbats as an opener in TvT just lowers the overall intensity of the match up no? It IS possible to shut it down btw, you need good map awareness and an idea of what exactly he is opening with (you know, the strategy aspect of the game :D). On June 10 2013 13:36 Phoenix2003 wrote: Wait, what? What extremely powerful harassment options do P has I wonder? That's not nullified by a single missile turret, by the way. Something's that's guaranteed to do damage to terran no matter what the preparation, like winbat drops. This ought to be good. Oracle openers are just as devastating if you aren't prepared for it. Just one example....yes even one missile turret doesn't stop oracle builds if you have good decision making and micro. | ||
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