EPTHellbats Review - Page 21
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gosublade
632 Posts
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Phoenix2003
126 Posts
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saddaromma
1129 Posts
On June 10 2013 13:15 Serpico wrote: The problem is they want to do everything new and not use brood war units in expansions. They're limiting their pool of potential units to round out the game because they keep wanting to have "their units" in the game. from top of my head. I can come with these ideas: - redesign nuke, make it spammable, require 100 energy instead of building the bomb, less damage but same delay and maybe give longer range to cast. Good player with smart predicition can use it to maximum effect, for zoning or as an antideathball. Or maybe leave nuke as it is. And give this ability to some sort of artillery unit. - make a zerg melee unit, which spreads desease to bio when killed. It can have crap damage and slightly more durable. Forces more micro from both players. - increase armor and durablity for burrowed units. Increase unburrow time. There will be incentive to micro zerg units. - give an ability to thor to suicide with large fucking explosion. ... Fuck ton of ideas, you just gotta choose the right one, not hellbats and warhounds ffs. | ||
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AnomalySC2
United States2073 Posts
On June 10 2013 13:46 Phoenix2003 wrote: ^^Well, I was wrong.(about your response being a good one) This is why you and fellow Ts fail. The key phrase" if you're not prepared" doesn't hold water since hellbat drops are guaranteed to do damage no matter what. Sorry, Try again. Now re-read my post again. So you think no matter what you do it's not possible to come out ahead vs a hellbat opener? -_- | ||
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Zambrah
United States7310 Posts
On June 10 2013 13:39 AnomalySC2 wrote: Yeah and removing hellbats as an opener in TvT just lowers the overall intensity of the match up no? It IS possible to shut it down btw, you need good map awareness and an idea of what exactly he is opening with (you know, the strategy aspect of the game :D). Oracle openers are just as devastating if you aren't prepared for it. Just one example....yes even one missile turret doesn't stop oracle builds if you have good decision making and micro. I think a part of the problem is not that they hurt when not prepared for, that goes for a ton of things in SC2, but they hurt disproportionately to the risk taken to execute them. They annihilate mineral lines in a pretty nasty way without much margin for error from the defender. Also, I'd like to imagine that the folks here aren't advocating that the opening be devalued to the point of uselessness. Just tuned so they're not so punishing. Nobody likes to have a mineral line incinerated because they looked away for a half a second. Personally I would lament the loss of the Turbovac/Hellbat synergy a little, mostly because of the micro involved in picking them up and redropping to abuse Medivac speed. Its little examples of micro like that that make games fun to watch, its really NOT interesting to see someone just send in waves and waves of Hellbat drops unendingly without any real commitment to microing them. So overall I have to imagine that whats best is something to tune the Hellbats so that they're not decimating mineral lines in duos. I admit I'm fond of the Hellbats occupying 5 Medivac slots, that way the only way two Hellbats are getting into your mineral line is with a heavier commitment, and it would likely lead to Marines going in the additional three slots, which could offer some interesting compositional micro between getting the Hellbat to dish out big AoE while the Marines finish the fleeing Probes off. | ||
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robopork
United States511 Posts
On June 10 2013 01:38 Bagi wrote: The hellbat whine is a bunch of fucking bullshit. Who cares about TvT anyway? Why would you limit perfectly balanced strategies in other match-ups because you don't exactly like the current TvT metagame? The problem isn't the hellbat in the first place, it's the medivac booster with its ridiculously short cooldown. Add 5 seconds and hellbat drops lose all their mobility, the end. I don't know about painting in such broad strokes, but I agree that if there is a problem in TvT, it's more the medivac than the hellbat. In the other mu's I am still unsure, but marauder hellbat looks crazy good in PvT atm. | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
You probably have 16 SCV's on minerals in your main by the time hellbats arrive. For every second that you pull all 16 away from mining, you are losing 10.66...7 minerals. So if you lose 0 SCV's and are forced to pull for 10 seconds, you have lost more than 106 minerals (I say more than because it takes time to re-establish mineral pairing). So if you get the medivac away, kill 2 SCV's and have them pull workers you have made a cost efficient trade (if not gained a lead) even with losing both hellbats. | ||
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ETisME
12413 Posts
On June 10 2013 13:49 AnomalySC2 wrote: So you think no matter what you do it's not possible to come out ahead vs a hellbat opener? -_- have you completely skipped OP's post??? I will just list two here for you: We don't want to see hellbat drops 99% of the TvT why we are seeing it so often is because the cost of defense and the reward is much better than other aggressive build "A Hellbat drop requires much more defensive investment than any other harassment units in the game." Some people want a more balanced viable multiple strategy in a matchup, not just one single dominating aggression build. | ||
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AnomalySC2
United States2073 Posts
On June 10 2013 13:55 ETisME wrote: have you completely skipped OP's post??? I will just list two here for you: We don't want to see hellbat drops 99% of the TvT why we are seeing it so often is because the cost of defense and the reward is much better than other aggressive build "A Hellbat drop requires much more defensive investment than any other harassment units in the game." Some people want a more balanced viable multiple strategy in a matchup, not just one single dominating aggression build. It will balance itself out naturally. You're new to metagames and trends or something? For instance, you can absolutely outplay a hellbat opener with a solid banshee build. There are many other options undiscovered, I'm sure.... If Blizzard steps in and starts nerfing whatever is currently the trend for the metagame then we will get a worse game in the long run. The final era of WoL was a complete mess for that exact reason. | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On June 10 2013 13:59 AnomalySC2 wrote: It will balance itself out naturally. You're new to metagames and trends or something? For instance, you can absolutely outplay a hellbat opener with a solid banshee build. There are many other options undiscovered, I'm sure.... If Blizzard steps in and starts nerfing whatever is currently the trend for a metagame then we will get a worse game in the long run. The final era of WoL was a complete mess for that exact reason. End of WoL: Blizz does nothing, complete mess Your opinion on if Blizz steps in: It will get worse Basically, it will either get worse or be a complete mess? They allowed the game to develop for 3 months, is that not enough time? | ||
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EFermi
United States165 Posts
On June 10 2013 13:15 Serpico wrote: The problem is they want to do everything new and not use brood war units in expansions. They're limiting their pool of potential units to round out the game because they keep wanting to have "their units" in the game. Which is stupid. Most units in BW had a nice creative spin on them, while in SC2 it's the dullest, yet flashiest things possible. | ||
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intense555
United States474 Posts
On June 10 2013 13:39 AnomalySC2 wrote: Yeah and removing hellbats as an opener in TvT just lowers the overall intensity of the match up no? It IS possible to shut it down btw, you need good map awareness and an idea of what exactly he is opening with (you know, the strategy aspect of the game :D). Oracle openers are just as devastating if you aren't prepared for it. Just one example....yes even one missile turret doesn't stop oracle builds if you have good decision making and micro. The problem is that its actually impossible to defend hellbat drops cost efficiently without hellbat dropping yourself. All other openers are obsolete as you invest way more in defending than they do attacking. It really makes the matchup stupid as there is only 1 playstyle due to hellbats. | ||
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guN-viCe
United States687 Posts
If vikings do in fact beat hellbats 1v1, I think that could possibly be a counter considering they can easily snipe medivacs. Combined with depots around the edges of bases and some turrets, it seems like a plausible theory. The only downside would be the time it takes for vikings to transform, which sometimes feels like ages. | ||
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
On June 10 2013 02:31 Penev wrote: Blizzard want mech vs Protoss. The change you propose will cause the drops to be very vulnerable against feedback. You could have it that the boosts costs energy but that will also cause bio to be weaker. If they want mech against Protoss, the answer is a better siege tank. Hellbats won't help. | ||
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Conquista
Singapore4 Posts
For example, they can give the medivacs a "weight limit" i.e with 8 marines or 4 hellions, they can still use afterburners. However, if units that take up 4 space or more like Hellbats, Siege tank or Thor, afterburners are disabled. | ||
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ETisME
12413 Posts
On June 10 2013 13:59 AnomalySC2 wrote: It will balance itself out naturally. You're new to metagames and trends or something? For instance, you can absolutely outplay a hellbat opener with a solid banshee build. There are many other options undiscovered, I'm sure.... If Blizzard steps in and starts nerfing whatever is currently the trend for the metagame then we will get a worse game in the long run. The final era of WoL was a complete mess for that exact reason. according to game theory, the option with the lowest risk and high reward will always be the dominating strategy. And I am glad that you have figured out in order to outplay a hellbat drop player, you must go for banshee openi Most of the metagame in WoL was aided by Blizzard patches, fixes and map changes, other than hellion opening in TvZ. some examples: Double forge -> cheaper upgrade Infestor ling -> infestor change Mass ghost in Late game TvZ -> gone after snipe patch 6 queens opening -> queen range buff which led to a quicker 3rd with 4 queens instead The final era of WoL was a mess when Blizzard didn't fix infestor broodlords | ||
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Mahanaim
Korea (South)1002 Posts
After reading the post, it seems that this is not a bad time to talk about them. | ||
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CeliosB
Canada100 Posts
On June 10 2013 10:30 FeyFey wrote: And how would you address the issue with the Hellbat as a tank vs Protoss then ? As you rightly said Archons would lose their bonus damage against them. Protoss had issues dealing with Hellbats in Bio compositions in the beta, because Zealots and Archons could not engage anymore and the Bio could do what it wanted. That was one reason why the Hellbats got the Bio tag and became pretty useless against Toss. Afterwards Hellbats got optimized to not rip through lings that hard but do darn well against Zealots. Removing the Bio tag only would make Hellbats even better against Protoss as the first version before the Bio change. But if people really think that drops are a problem. It is just dropping Hellbats on top of the opponent, because Hellbats fire almost instantly. They could easily add a crouch animation like with the Thors, which would result in the Hellbats being nearly useless in chasing situations, while still being the unbeatable tanks. Medivac drops would still work but it wouldn't be the drop and pick up instantly anymore, but give a timing to snipe the hellbats. Fix the problem of it being able to be healed and if it is too strong in fights vs toss you can nerf damage, health ect. it is and easy fix from there | ||
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AnomalySC2
United States2073 Posts
On June 10 2013 14:18 ETisME wrote: according to game theory, the option with the lowest risk and high reward will always be the dominating strategy. And I am glad that you have figured out in order to outplay a hellbat drop player, you must go for banshee openi Most of the metagame in WoL was aided by Blizzard patches, fixes and map changes, other than hellion opening in TvZ. some examples: Double forge -> cheaper upgrade Infestor ling -> infestor change Mass ghost in Late game TvZ -> gone after snipe patch 6 queens opening -> queen range buff which led to a quicker 3rd with 4 queens instead The final era of WoL was a mess when Blizzard didn't fix infestor broodlords Infestor Broodlord only came about because of the constant nerfing (and in some cases buffing ^_^). It's a never ending road if they start going down it. One nerf will lead to the next, so on and so forth. | ||
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Sky0
United States214 Posts
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