Maybe just lengthen the cooldown on medivac boost. It seems like medivacs are boosting almost half the time. The medivac boosts to get into the base, then boosts on top of the workers, then boosts again to get out all in the same minute. Make the boost more of a decision. So you could use it to boost into the base OR boost on top of the workers OR boost out of the base.

DuaneDibly

Australia30 Posts

June 09 2013 23:50 GMT

#322

make the medivac boost upgradable at starport tech lab and i think this fixes the issue. its not the hellbats that are the problem, its their mobility with warp speed medivacs.

FaCE_1

Canada6184 Posts

June 09 2013 23:52 GMT

#323

make hellbat not able to go in a medicvac

forumtext

575 Posts

June 09 2013 23:54 GMT

#324

I don't think it's a problem since there are much more Protoss than Terrans in PL.

ref
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=416247

Leragie

United States8 Posts

June 10 2013 00:01 GMT

#325

Alright, this is what clearly needs to be done. First off, no changes to any units at all. Instead, Blizzard should implement an achievement called something like..."Defense of Awesomeness". This achievement can only be acquired by successfully defending against your opponents Hellbat drops and continuing on to win the match. This must be achieved in at least 10 different matches on ladder and must be performed at least once with each race. Once that is done you will then be granted the ability to perform Hellbat drops yourself. This change will surely make everyone and their grandmother hate the living shit out of Hellbats and the bitch flood that follows will force a change once and for all.

Gamegene

United States8308 Posts

June 10 2013 00:03 GMT

#326

either remove the biological attribute or require the transformation servos. they have their place in the later stages of all matchups, but as an early game unit they're just too strong and punishing.

Xorphene

United Kingdom492 Posts

June 10 2013 00:05 GMT

#327

Like already stated, the major problems are:

1. Hellbat + Medivac drop - boosters negate static defence, and Hellbat splash does a lot of damage
2. With healing, Hellbats tank far too cost effectively for a mineral only unit.

Therefore: the Medivac is the problem (in all 3 matchups) rather than the Hellbat directly - the synergy is just far too strong.

The other problem with the speedboost is the retention of medivacs into late game is far higher than it was in WoL, this makes bio based strategies significantly stronger in the mid to late game. Also means with Hellbats being minerals only, Terran can drop the Hellbats, sac them to save the medivac and be ahead through (a) retaining the Medivac, (b) Worker kills, (c) Lost mining time through worker pull.

Ergo, it's just *too* efficient.

MichaelDonovan

United States1453 Posts

June 10 2013 00:08 GMT

#328

It is a little more of a commitment to go early hellbat drops than other drops, since you have to buy a quick armory to get hellbats. So that's like 150 gas extra for the armory, right (don't play terran)? Don't know how much that actually influences the discussion, but I feel like it should be said.

Kvz

United States463 Posts

June 10 2013 00:14 GMT

#329

The problem with hellbats and with hellions is that they are built to fulfill the role that two different units fulfilled in BW. This is a huge design flaw in sc2 in my opinion.

Hellbats and to a lesser degree hellions are supposed to be:
1. Vultures: a mineral dump for a mech army with high speed and harassment capabilities. They have upgrades for speed and to plant spidermines etc. This was really interesting and led to innovative plays.

2. Firebat: infantry unit used straight line aoe. This unit was slow (without stim) and was able to effectively counter light units such as zerglings. Oh the firebat also cost gas.

The real issue here is that hellions and hellbats come into the game way too fast. Because they are mineral only, this leaves the terran an avenue to tech straight to medivacs (consolidated medic and dropship, which imo was not a good idea) and start harass. In my opinion hellions should cost 25 gas much like firebats did. This would solve a lot of issues.

ObeseHydra

Brazil196 Posts

June 10 2013 00:14 GMT

#330

I think they should try one of the following:

-Make it costs gas;
-Make the damage output be that high only if blue flame is researched,
-Transformation Servos as a requirement to produce Hellbats;

Alacast

United States205 Posts

June 10 2013 00:21 GMT

#331

I am happy to continue waiting. Never underestimate the ability for pros to develop new strategies to deal with situations like these.

ETisME

12828 Posts

June 10 2013 00:22 GMT

#332

I agree with some post here

Medivac boost makes hellbat drop comes way too early, pick up and reposition the drop becomes too easy compared to the defending side, the static defense needed to defend early hellbat drop is really high while hellbat drop is by no means an all in type of early aggression.

Personally I think if the medivac boost is slower or there is a longer cool down or shorter duration, then hellbat drop would be ok.

Phoenix2003

126 Posts

June 10 2013 00:27 GMT

#333

Medivacs are also a problem, but we knew that DURING the BETA stages. I guess the community is the type who needs to learns these things the hard way first.

Ucs

264 Posts

June 10 2013 00:34 GMT

#334

I'm not happy with hellbats in TvT (since they are dominating the matchup, doing anything else means loosing) but other matchups are really balanced atm. Doing anything to hellbats to fix TvT will screw with the other matchups and screw the balance.

ScythedBlade

308 Posts

June 10 2013 00:40 GMT

#335

Making hellbats cost gas is pretty bad. The problem with hellbats is that they are tanky light units that just about do better dps than even roaches. This is pretty ridiculous. From a balance standpoint, there's no actual weakness to the hellbats for terrans or protoss. Zerg has banelings, but that's it.

You'll need to give a viable weakness to the hellbats for both Protoss and Terrans. Or you could reduce the damage and make blue flamed upgrades actually help deal extra damage.

Gamegene

United States8308 Posts

June 10 2013 00:45 GMT

#336

On June 10 2013 09:14 Kvz wrote:
The problem with hellbats and with hellions is that they are built to fulfill the role that two different units fulfilled in BW. This is a huge design flaw in sc2 in my opinion.

Hellbats and to a lesser degree hellions are supposed to be:
1. Vultures: a mineral dump for a mech army with high speed and harassment capabilities. They have upgrades for speed and to plant spidermines etc. This was really interesting and led to innovative plays.

2. Firebat: infantry unit used straight line aoe. This unit was slow (without stim) and was able to effectively counter light units such as zerglings. Oh the firebat also cost gas.

The real issue here is that hellions and hellbats come into the game way too fast. Because they are mineral only, this leaves the terran an avenue to tech straight to medivacs (consolidated medic and dropship, which imo was not a good idea) and start harass. In my opinion hellions should cost 25 gas much like firebats did. This would solve a lot of issues.

lol cmon now. this is just stupid. regular hellions have had their place in the game for years now, there's no need to change the cost to both units when we're capable of making cleaner changes that address the early game directly.

hellbats i really don't like a gas change just because it's going to make the whole transformation relationship really weird, but i'd be kind of open to it.

EFermi

United States165 Posts

June 10 2013 00:49 GMT

#337

Hellbats are just a horribly designed unit. Terran shouldn't have a cheap tanky close range unit, that on top of everything, does ridiculous amounts of damage.

CeliosB

Canada100 Posts

June 10 2013 00:51 GMT

#338

i think they really need to change it back to mech, it would make the drops weaker which is the main problem with them and it would also make mech more viable vs protoss as archons wouldnt do extra damage to them

BronzeKnee

United States5225 Posts

June 10 2013 00:51 GMT

#339

On June 10 2013 08:54 forumtext wrote:
I don't think it's a problem since there are much more Protoss than Terrans in PL.

ref
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=416247

This is an unrelated issue. When a player has time to prepare for a best of 1, Protoss shines because of the variety of timing attacks Protoss can do and engineer. This is due in part to the fact that they have the only macro mechanic which can speed a long units or tech, and not just help them bring in more income.

btwr

20 Posts

June 10 2013 00:52 GMT

#340

I'm thinking decreasing hellbat movement speed on the PTR could yield some really interesting results

Would increase viability of hydralisks being used as anti-air

Even though siege tanks are the main unit to help against hydralisk, hellbats are certainly used mid-engagement. With this change hydras could be used as defense, but able to move out of the army in engagements until tanks are taken out. Zerg has recently been a little forced into a bane/ultra running around the base to defend drops, with a little muta help. Considering hydras have fantastic DPS to air and the more viable +1 range upgrade they could be used in small numbers for base defense- especially killing the medivac before it can drop on them

Would decrease hellbat's viability in drops on the mineral line

When hellbat drops still occur in this change, they would require much more micro by the terran player player (and very visible micro as well- fun to watch). To keep the hellbats from being killed before they can actually engage after workers are pulled (due to the low speed), terrans would have to pick them up and drop them on the enemy again. The defender would most likely spread their units away from the hellbat's AoE so the terran would have to pick them up numerous times to keep the engagement happening.

Would keep hellbats viable against chargelots:

The need for chargelots has been keeping protoss on gateway tech, and also keeping terran away from mech in TvP. It could be very interesting to see what happens when people experiment with new tech trees in that matchup

Thoughts?