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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19307 Posts
On May 31 2013 00:16 Thieving Magpie wrote: Charge does increase zealot speed... Or are you simply asking that the speed upgrade on charge be increased? I mean a permanent increase to the speed of a zealot so they can travel the map faster. The speed increase from charge is temporary and much faster then the speed I refer to. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On May 31 2013 00:29 BisuDagger wrote: I mean a permanent increase to the speed of a zealot so they can travel the map faster. The speed increase from charge is temporary and much faster then the speed I refer to. The charge upgrade does both. The movement speed of zealots is increased by researching charge, and it gives them the actual charge. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On May 31 2013 00:34 Whitewing wrote: The charge upgrade does both. The movement speed of zealots is increased by researching charge, and it gives them the actual charge. He wants them to go even faster. Like super speed zealots with charge. Personally, I would like a dash that could be used for short bursts along with charge. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19307 Posts
On May 31 2013 00:34 Whitewing wrote: The charge upgrade does both. The movement speed of zealots is increased by researching charge, and it gives them the actual charge. "Researching Charge will also give a small natural speed boost to all Zealots, making them nearly the same speed as Stalkers" This improvement is bs. I want a manlot. They go from slow to stupidly normal speed. That's not the speed I'm looking for. | ||
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xAdra
Singapore1858 Posts
On May 31 2013 00:10 Jinky wrote: Mutalisks are a significant investment. Each Muta is the price of 1 Medivac, and it requires about 8 Mutalisks at a minimum to be effective for harass. That's the equivalent of 8 Medivacs just to harass. See how that doesn't compare? I see your point, but what I mean is how many different types of harass you have to prepare for when against zerg. Mutalisks are incredibly damaging if unscouted and can easily end the game if you aren't prepare with appropriate counters. Zergling runbys are the bane of protoss who do not diligently re-plug their wall with a zealot every time. Burrow and burrow move are another one. Drops may be a big gamble, but they are still a possibility in the late game, and crackling drops deal epic damage. Not forgetting that Swarmhost Locusts can also be sent in waves which, if not appropriately prepared for is also easily game ending. | ||
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Jinky
United States64 Posts
On May 31 2013 00:17 Thieving Magpie wrote: Surprisingly enough--that's about how many Medivacs terran wants to have in order to do drop play. 2 out in the map and 6ish above the army. As two are retreating, fill up another two to hit again leaving 4 in the army waiting for the retreating two to come back. Okay, I'll disregard that Terran can do strong drops with their very first two Medivacs so that I can go along with you on this. Those 8 Medivacs can also be used with your army, will be strong all game long, and can be used to harass forever. A small handful of Mutas (harass size) are easily shut down by turrets/cannons. Medivacs can just go around static defense, drop your ground troops, and still harass. If the opponent is doing some massive timing attack, you can pull most of your Medivacs back (maybe leaving 1 or 2 to continue to drop) to defend with. But Zerg can't split up their Mutas to harass and defend, and 8 Mutas defending with an army won't do enough damage to be worth it anyway. Medivacs are way more versatile and effective in small numbers. Honestly, would you rather have 8 Medivacs or 8 Mutalisks at 10:00? The price is comparable, but the effectiveness is not. On May 31 2013 00:19 ZenithM wrote: The game was never designed for all the races to have equivalent harass options. What is important is that you do have them, with mutalisks, speedlings, burrow (and burrow move), nydus, etc, etc.. Protoss on the other hand is more limited. Static anti-air pretty much deny most of their "single harass" units, so they're left with warp prisms. And blink stalkers maybe? that's kind of like mutalisks though, except that mutalisks are far better to mass :D I do use burrow quite a bit, and it is good and very fun. Glad they moved it to Hatch tech where it can be useful for harass. But Burrow doesn't get units into the enemy base. Don't talk to me about Burrow-move, because that is lair tech, it is expensive, and any decent opponent will have detection at their front door by the time you can get it. I do think Nydus is an unexplored area for Zerg harass. It is unexplored because it is so expensive (kind of like Mutas, but Mutas can at least deal damage.) I already talked about Mutas. It is not cost-effective to get Mutas simply to harass. Once you make Mutas and the opponent is aware of it, making defense is easy to shut down Mutas. Going Mutas is a commitment for Zerg, not "just another harass unit to dip into a bit." Mutas aren't "far better to mass." They must be massed to be effective. And they are far more gas-expensive than Stalkers, so you can make many Stalkers and also make big tech units, but for Zerg going Mutas, those Mutas are the big tech unit. Zerg will have no gas for anything else. But perhaps you are right and the races aren't all supposed to have really good, cheap harass options that are comparative to Medivac with speedboost. But here we are with Blizzard considering free Warp Prism speed.... Anyway, I'm not trying to say that Zerg has no harass options. I am saying that Mutas are not Zerg's go-to "harass option" like some people are blathering. | ||
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EleanorRIgby
Canada3923 Posts
On May 30 2013 22:57 HolyArrow wrote: Yes, that would be quite OP. I'm a Toss player and that would pretty much break the game IMO. concussive shell more game changing then charge. Are you joking? | ||
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Jinky
United States64 Posts
On May 31 2013 00:48 xAdra wrote: I see your point, but what I mean is how many different types of harass you have to prepare for when against zerg. Mutalisks are incredibly damaging if unscouted and can easily end the game if you aren't prepare with appropriate counters. Zergling runbys are the bane of protoss who do not diligently re-plug their wall with a zealot every time. Burrow and burrow move are another one. Drops may be a big gamble, but they are still a possibility in the late game, and crackling drops deal epic damage. Not forgetting that Swarmhost Locusts can also be sent in waves which, if not appropriately prepared for is also easily game ending. I agree that Zerg has many harass options; I think it's a shame that pro Zergs don't use them more (which would lead all Zergs to use them more). What I'm saying is that Muta isn't a harass option to be compared to Medivacs/Warp Prism. The cost difference and the timings involved are very different. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On May 31 2013 01:06 EleanorRIgby wrote: concussive shell more game changing then charge. Are you joking? Conc shell is actually almost perfect (I would prefer if it had a 3 second cooldown so that it happens every other shot instead of every shot but that's being nitpicky) It's powerful early on, but terrible late. It has its uses and allows a slow terran army a 2nd way of "keeping up" with its faster opponents, but it's most powerful during small army engagements as opposed to large army engagements. The opposite is true for charge. What would be better is if Charge was split into two upgrades. One for speed, and one for charge. This would allow them to buff both so a speed only upgrade could make zealots even faster while a charge only upgrade could either have a smaller cooldown or even a damage boost during the charge. that would definitely be more dynamic. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On May 31 2013 00:57 Jinky wrote: Okay, I'll disregard that Terran can do strong drops with their very first two Medivacs so that I can go along with you on this. Those 8 Medivacs can also be used with your army, will be strong all game long, and can be used to harass forever. A small handful of Mutas (harass size) are easily shut down by turrets/cannons. Medivacs can just go around static defense, drop your ground troops, and still harass. If the opponent is doing some massive timing attack, you can pull most of your Medivacs back (maybe leaving 1 or 2 to continue to drop) to defend with. But Zerg can't split up their Mutas to harass and defend, and 8 Mutas defending with an army won't do enough damage to be worth it anyway. Medivacs are way more versatile and effective in small numbers. Honestly, would you rather have 8 Medivacs or 8 Mutalisks at 10:00? The price is comparable, but the effectiveness is not. Of course I'm not saying its the same. I just never really thought about it in those terms before. The weakness of Medivacs is that you need additional investment on top of the medivac itself. (Marine's aren't free after all  )Two medivacs out in the world is 20 supply worth of units. Which is about how much supply 10ish Mutalisks take up as well. The main strength of the medivac is that when it retreats it is part of the army. This isn't true for Mutalisks OR for Prisms. The main strength with mutalisks is that 10-20 mutalisks can end the game while 10-20 medivacs cannot. A great way to solve this problem is to bring back the medic (at Ghost tech of course as to not make timings with medics too fast) and to transform the medivac into a dropship (but still have boosters). This would make it so Terran don't need to build 20 supply of healers all the time and it would buff terran by not requiring their healers to cost 100 gas a pop. Makes non-terrans happy, makes terrans happy. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On May 31 2013 01:20 Toadvine wrote: FYI, speed zealots in BW moved nearly as fast as stimmed Marines. Zealot speed also cost 150/150 vs 200/200 for Charge. Frankly, if they reverted it to how it was in BW, it would be a significant buff. No idea why it needs to be so expensive anyway. Because it's 2:1 Imagine for moment that adrenal and metabolic boost was put into one upgrade--it would probably cost 300/300 or even 400/400 But since they're separate each can be costed accordingly as well as buffed accordingly. | ||
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Sabu113
United States11075 Posts
On May 31 2013 01:20 Toadvine wrote: FYI, speed zealots in BW moved nearly as fast as stimmed Marines. Zealot speed also cost 150/150 vs 200/200 for Charge. Frankly, if they reverted it to how it was in BW, it would be a significant buff. No idea why it needs to be so expensive anyway. Everything protoss must be expensive and require a heavy gas investment to tech to. Don't get me started on Templar. It's ludicrous how much tech toss has to invest in to be effective. It results in a super lopsided game time wise. edit: No clue what the hell magpie is talking about. Zealot speed was just speed. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19307 Posts
On May 31 2013 01:28 Thieving Magpie wrote: Because it's 2:1 Imagine for moment that adrenal and metabolic boost was put into one upgrade--it would probably cost 300/300 or even 400/400 But since they're separate each can be costed accordingly as well as buffed accordingly. Glad to see some1 agrees with me. Let's separate speed from charge and have two upgrades. | ||
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Jasiwel
United States146 Posts
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On May 31 2013 01:36 BisuDagger wrote: Glad to see some1 agrees with me. Let's separate speed from charge and have two upgrades. Agreed, I also feel the same about medivacs (split them into medics and dropships). Even moreso now that boost can give a "plain" dropship a unique flare. | ||
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midnight999
United States257 Posts
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On May 31 2013 01:43 jkim91 wrote: I would've preferred a complete re-balance of gateway units with HoTS, but I guess it's too late for that lol. I don't know if a complete rebalance would be justified though? early timings with them are pretty strong, while midgame back and forths are fantastic to watch. The lategame is just weird where either the gateway units seem unstoppable or die like pandas fucking. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19307 Posts
On May 31 2013 01:39 Jasiwel wrote: I think an upgrade should be introduced that helps Zealot longevity in the late game. The problem I keep seeing is that Zealots are becoming more important, yet they're being completely demolished by nearly every new unit in HotS. Well sentries kind of lose usefullness lategame too. Imagine a sentry that can put a dmatrix style shield on zealots (gateway units only). That way they can take more dmg for a period of time as they engage battle. This ability versus the overall shield that they use currently. | ||
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MrGh0st
United States35 Posts
1.) All Protoss units get a 18% shield boost if they're within the vicinity of other friendly Protoss units, thus solidifying the Protoss DEATHBALL as the only way to play. 2.) Zealot's and Stalker's damage now does +15 to Bio. 3.) All RoboBay units are warped in via the Warpgate instead of being 'built' at the RoboBay. We feel this will allow Protoss players to harass more easily. 4.) Colossi can no longer be targeted by Anti-Air (Corruptors, Phoenixes, Vikings.) 5.) The Nexus Photon Overcharge ability from the Mothership Core can now be used on enemy Hatcheries, Command Centers, and Nexus'. We feel this will allow Protoss players to harass more easily. 6.) The Sentry's Force Field ability's duration has been doubled to 30seconds and will no longer cost energy. 7.) The Sentry's Guardian Shield ability has had it's duration doubled to 30 seconds and its damage reduction doubled from 2 to 4. 8.) Zealots now start with the Charge ability. It will no longer need to be researched at the Twilight Council. User was warned for this post | ||
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