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On May 31 2013 00:19 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2013 00:10 Jinky wrote:On May 31 2013 00:01 xAdra wrote:
I find the zergs complaining that "zerg has no reliable harassment options" quite epic, for the race that punishes minute mistakes the hardest. "Mutalisks are not considered harassment units".....really? Mutalisk tech switches are incredible against Protoss, especially since Storms don't do shit to mutalisks with their new regeneration. Mutalisks are a significant investment. Each Muta is the price of 1 Medivac, and it requires about 8 Mutalisks at a minimum to be effective for harass. That's the equivalent of 8 Medivacs just to harass. See how that doesn't compare? The game was never designed for all the races to have equivalent harass options. What is important is that you do have them, with mutalisks, speedlings, burrow (and burrow move), nydus, etc, etc.. Protoss on the other hand is more limited. Static anti-air pretty much deny most of their "single harass" units, so they're left with warp prisms. And blink stalkers maybe? that's kind of like mutalisks though, except that mutalisks are far better to mass :D
Static anti-air denies all air harass? Really?
I recommend you to check out some recent VODs of PvZs with Phoenix openings and count the drone kills when Zerg has 2 spores in each mineral line. 10-15 drone kills is pretty standard, even when zerg commits that significantly to static defense that early in the game. Pay a little attention next time when they show the resources lost tab in those games in the first 8-10 minutes, which doesn't include the cost of the static defense.
Someone else said earlier in this thread, that people don't just want harass, what they really want is the ability to do game ending damage with harass. That's what all these "Protoss has no harass" complaints are really about.
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On May 31 2013 01:25 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2013 00:57 Jinky wrote:On May 31 2013 00:17 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 31 2013 00:10 Jinky wrote:
Mutalisks are a significant investment. Each Muta is the price of 1 Medivac, and it requires about 8 Mutalisks at a minimum to be effective for harass. That's the equivalent of 8 Medivacs just to harass. See how that doesn't compare? Surprisingly enough--that's about how many Medivacs terran wants to have in order to do drop play. 2 out in the map and 6ish above the army. As two are retreating, fill up another two to hit again leaving 4 in the army waiting for the retreating two to come back. Okay, I'll disregard that Terran can do strong drops with their very first two Medivacs so that I can go along with you on this. Those 8 Medivacs can also be used with your army, will be strong all game long, and can be used to harass forever. A small handful of Mutas (harass size) are easily shut down by turrets/cannons. Medivacs can just go around static defense, drop your ground troops, and still harass. If the opponent is doing some massive timing attack, you can pull most of your Medivacs back (maybe leaving 1 or 2 to continue to drop) to defend with. But Zerg can't split up their Mutas to harass and defend, and 8 Mutas defending with an army won't do enough damage to be worth it anyway. Medivacs are way more versatile and effective in small numbers. Honestly, would you rather have 8 Medivacs or 8 Mutalisks at 10:00? The price is comparable, but the effectiveness is not. Of course I'm not saying its the same. I just never really thought about it in those terms before. The weakness of Medivacs is that you need additional investment on top of the medivac itself. (Marine's aren't free after all  ) Two medivacs out in the world is 20 supply worth of units. Which is about how much supply 10ish Mutalisks take up as well. The main strength of the medivac is that when it retreats it is part of the army. This isn't true for Mutalisks OR for Prisms. The main strength with mutalisks is that 10-20 mutalisks can end the game while 10-20 medivacs cannot. A great way to solve this problem is to bring back the medic (at Ghost tech of course as to not make timings with medics too fast) and to transform the medivac into a dropship (but still have boosters). This would make it so Terran don't need to build 20 supply of healers all the time and it would buff terran by not requiring their healers to cost 100 gas a pop. Makes non-terrans happy, makes terrans happy.
I completely agree with you.
Also, as for the Medivac being able to retreat and be part of the main army versus Mutalisks that can mass up and be very effective, I think this is just the difference in how the races were designed. I think Zerg needs to mass up on anything they do to be effective, whereas Terran can do a lot with very little. (Not saying it's broken. In those games where Terran is maxing out before Zerg, I think it's Zerg's fault for letting Terran expand very quickly. I also think it is Zerg's fault for not continually whittling down the enemy's army, keeping them from getting a 200/200 that is more cost-effective than Zerg's 200/200.)
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Bisutopia19299 Posts
On May 31 2013 01:53 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2013 00:19 ZenithM wrote:On May 31 2013 00:10 Jinky wrote:On May 31 2013 00:01 xAdra wrote:
I find the zergs complaining that "zerg has no reliable harassment options" quite epic, for the race that punishes minute mistakes the hardest. "Mutalisks are not considered harassment units".....really? Mutalisk tech switches are incredible against Protoss, especially since Storms don't do shit to mutalisks with their new regeneration. Mutalisks are a significant investment. Each Muta is the price of 1 Medivac, and it requires about 8 Mutalisks at a minimum to be effective for harass. That's the equivalent of 8 Medivacs just to harass. See how that doesn't compare? The game was never designed for all the races to have equivalent harass options. What is important is that you do have them, with mutalisks, speedlings, burrow (and burrow move), nydus, etc, etc.. Protoss on the other hand is more limited. Static anti-air pretty much deny most of their "single harass" units, so they're left with warp prisms. And blink stalkers maybe? that's kind of like mutalisks though, except that mutalisks are far better to mass :D Static anti-air denies all air harass? Really? I recommend you to check out some recent VODs of PvZs with Phoenix openings and count the drone kills when Zerg has 2 spores in each mineral line. 10-15 drone kills is pretty standard, even when zerg commits that significantly to static defense that early in the game. Pay a little attention next time when they show the resources lost tab in those games in the first 8-10 minutes, which doesn't include the cost of the static defense. Someone else said earlier in this thread, that people don't just want harass, what they really want is the ability to do game ending damage with harass. That's what all these "Protoss has no harass" complaints are really about.
I agree with this. My fear is that protoss will not have effective ways to controll four battles at different parts of the map at once. You just didn't see that possibility in WOL. In hots the MSC definitely helps that out a bit but the importance of even 1 colossi means you never wanted to separate your army from it.
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Honestly, I think a lot of people are thinking about the whole situation wrong. Protoss is the turtle race in sc2, instead of trying to change that, it should just be embraced by giving protoss changes that will help it. Obviously, harass is good when turtle, but what I feel protoss really lacks is solid ways to control space around it's bases and crawl onto expansions. Some maps even taking a 3rd is very tough. I watch a lot of streams and pro's struggle to take a 3rd as protoss vs a terran or zerg that takes a 3rd greedily.
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On May 31 2013 01:53 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2013 00:19 ZenithM wrote:On May 31 2013 00:10 Jinky wrote:On May 31 2013 00:01 xAdra wrote:
I find the zergs complaining that "zerg has no reliable harassment options" quite epic, for the race that punishes minute mistakes the hardest. "Mutalisks are not considered harassment units".....really? Mutalisk tech switches are incredible against Protoss, especially since Storms don't do shit to mutalisks with their new regeneration. Mutalisks are a significant investment. Each Muta is the price of 1 Medivac, and it requires about 8 Mutalisks at a minimum to be effective for harass. That's the equivalent of 8 Medivacs just to harass. See how that doesn't compare? The game was never designed for all the races to have equivalent harass options. What is important is that you do have them, with mutalisks, speedlings, burrow (and burrow move), nydus, etc, etc.. Protoss on the other hand is more limited. Static anti-air pretty much deny most of their "single harass" units, so they're left with warp prisms. And blink stalkers maybe? that's kind of like mutalisks though, except that mutalisks are far better to mass :D Static anti-air denies all air harass? Really? I recommend you to check out some recent VODs of PvZs with Phoenix openings and count the drone kills when Zerg has 2 spores in each mineral line. 10-15 drone kills is pretty standard, even when zerg commits that significantly to static defense that early in the game. Pay a little attention next time when they show the resources lost tab in those games in the first 8-10 minutes, which doesn't include the cost of the static defense. Someone else said earlier in this thread, that people don't just want harass, what they really want is the ability to do game ending damage with harass. That's what all these "Protoss has no harass" complaints are really about.
That's actually true, and Stargate openings in PvZ are the best example of how Protoss harass can work well. Amusingly enough this wasn't really intended by Blizzard. The thing that gave Phoenix that little push necessary to make them work consistently was the +1 range, originally intended to counteract Muta buffs. It was one of the best HotS Protoss changes nonetheless,
Still, it's kinda true that Protoss can't really harass a Terran in a standard game, but that has more to do with general matchup dynamics than how good Warp Prisms of Phoenix are. Which is why this change would likely not change much at all there.
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As if timing pushes weren't already strong as hell vs zerg. I don't like this idea, but I guess we will see how it works out. But maybe all the best pros are in the other 2 races? What if they buff and toss still getting owned at pro level, buff more until it is really really imba at lower leagues?
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On May 31 2013 02:23 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2013 01:53 sitromit wrote:On May 31 2013 00:19 ZenithM wrote:On May 31 2013 00:10 Jinky wrote:On May 31 2013 00:01 xAdra wrote:
I find the zergs complaining that "zerg has no reliable harassment options" quite epic, for the race that punishes minute mistakes the hardest. "Mutalisks are not considered harassment units".....really? Mutalisk tech switches are incredible against Protoss, especially since Storms don't do shit to mutalisks with their new regeneration. Mutalisks are a significant investment. Each Muta is the price of 1 Medivac, and it requires about 8 Mutalisks at a minimum to be effective for harass. That's the equivalent of 8 Medivacs just to harass. See how that doesn't compare? The game was never designed for all the races to have equivalent harass options. What is important is that you do have them, with mutalisks, speedlings, burrow (and burrow move), nydus, etc, etc.. Protoss on the other hand is more limited. Static anti-air pretty much deny most of their "single harass" units, so they're left with warp prisms. And blink stalkers maybe? that's kind of like mutalisks though, except that mutalisks are far better to mass :D Static anti-air denies all air harass? Really? I recommend you to check out some recent VODs of PvZs with Phoenix openings and count the drone kills when Zerg has 2 spores in each mineral line. 10-15 drone kills is pretty standard, even when zerg commits that significantly to static defense that early in the game. Pay a little attention next time when they show the resources lost tab in those games in the first 8-10 minutes, which doesn't include the cost of the static defense. Someone else said earlier in this thread, that people don't just want harass, what they really want is the ability to do game ending damage with harass. That's what all these "Protoss has no harass" complaints are really about. That's actually true, and Stargate openings in PvZ are the best example of how Protoss harass can work well. Amusingly enough this wasn't really intended by Blizzard. The thing that gave Phoenix that little push necessary to make them work consistently was the +1 range, originally intended to counteract Muta buffs. It was one of the best HotS Protoss changes nonetheless, Still, it's kinda true that Protoss can't really harass a Terran in a standard game, but that has more to do with general matchup dynamics than how good Warp Prisms of Phoenix are. Which is why this change would likely not change much at all there.
proxy oracle builds beg to differ, they are borderline op and always kill 10+ workers and you cant counter attack toss because of nexus cannon.
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This is just buff for the sake of buffing. If they want to promote more warp prism play, maybe an upgrade or default, instant build time for units summoned from a warp prism, wouldn't be just better ?
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On May 31 2013 04:49 EleanorRIgby wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2013 02:23 Toadvine wrote:On May 31 2013 01:53 sitromit wrote:On May 31 2013 00:19 ZenithM wrote:On May 31 2013 00:10 Jinky wrote:On May 31 2013 00:01 xAdra wrote:
I find the zergs complaining that "zerg has no reliable harassment options" quite epic, for the race that punishes minute mistakes the hardest. "Mutalisks are not considered harassment units".....really? Mutalisk tech switches are incredible against Protoss, especially since Storms don't do shit to mutalisks with their new regeneration. Mutalisks are a significant investment. Each Muta is the price of 1 Medivac, and it requires about 8 Mutalisks at a minimum to be effective for harass. That's the equivalent of 8 Medivacs just to harass. See how that doesn't compare? The game was never designed for all the races to have equivalent harass options. What is important is that you do have them, with mutalisks, speedlings, burrow (and burrow move), nydus, etc, etc.. Protoss on the other hand is more limited. Static anti-air pretty much deny most of their "single harass" units, so they're left with warp prisms. And blink stalkers maybe? that's kind of like mutalisks though, except that mutalisks are far better to mass :D Static anti-air denies all air harass? Really? I recommend you to check out some recent VODs of PvZs with Phoenix openings and count the drone kills when Zerg has 2 spores in each mineral line. 10-15 drone kills is pretty standard, even when zerg commits that significantly to static defense that early in the game. Pay a little attention next time when they show the resources lost tab in those games in the first 8-10 minutes, which doesn't include the cost of the static defense. Someone else said earlier in this thread, that people don't just want harass, what they really want is the ability to do game ending damage with harass. That's what all these "Protoss has no harass" complaints are really about. That's actually true, and Stargate openings in PvZ are the best example of how Protoss harass can work well. Amusingly enough this wasn't really intended by Blizzard. The thing that gave Phoenix that little push necessary to make them work consistently was the +1 range, originally intended to counteract Muta buffs. It was one of the best HotS Protoss changes nonetheless, Still, it's kinda true that Protoss can't really harass a Terran in a standard game, but that has more to do with general matchup dynamics than how good Warp Prisms of Phoenix are. Which is why this change would likely not change much at all there. proxy oracle builds beg to differ, they are borderline op and always kill 10+ workers and you cant counter attack toss because of nexus cannon.
No much different from banshee openings in WoL.
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On May 31 2013 02:22 Reborn8u wrote:
Honestly, I think a lot of people are thinking about the whole situation wrong. Protoss is the turtle race in sc2, instead of trying to change that, it should just be embraced by giving protoss changes that will help it. Obviously, harass is good when turtle, but what I feel protoss really lacks is solid ways to control space around it's bases and crawl onto expansions. Some maps even taking a 3rd is very tough. I watch a lot of streams and pro's struggle to take a 3rd as protoss vs a terran or zerg that takes a 3rd greedily.
Why would you want a faction that tries to avoid interaction in a multiplayer game?
Like the whole idea behind playing against another player is to interact with that guy as much as possible. Making it so that everything turns out supersafe for both sides (one can't harass, one can't be harassed) is the worst thing for a multiplayer game.
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Russian Federation125 Posts
Guys just imagine what toss will be able to do:
yos see 3 prism are flying out of ths protoss base and flying to 3 different bases.
You run to defend your main but then u understand that only prism on your 3d is real ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/kODqNHR.png)
Illusion of prism will have increased speed too, so only the lazy one won't use it to distract enemy and may be hide the real prism among fakes.
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On May 31 2013 05:29 dargul wrote:Guys just imagine what toss will be able to do: yos see 3 prism flying out of ths protoss base and flying to different you bases. You running to defend your main but then u understand that only prism on your 3d is real Illusion of prism will have increased speed too, so only the lazy one won't use it to distract enemy and may be hide the real prism between fakes.
That doesn't sound fun?
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I don't get this. They didn't want to buff the oracle because things seemed okay and they didn't want to do things that could upset the balance, but now they want to change something much more significantly that is going to impact the game a lot because Protoss is underperforming? Why not just go back to the Oracle changed? That seemed much more reasonable and I feel like the Oracle is heavily underused and would like to see it used much more.
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On May 31 2013 05:29 dargul wrote:Guys just imagine what toss will be able to do: yos see 3 prism flying out of ths protoss base and flying to different you bases. You running to defend your main but then u understand that only prism on your 3d is real Illusion of prism will have increased speed too, so only the lazy one won't use it to distract enemy and may be hide the real prism between fakes.
Sounds as good as when my GF has to bite the pillow
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On May 31 2013 05:51 Cereb wrote:
I don't get this. They didn't want to buff the oracle because things seemed okay and they didn't want to do things that could upset the balance, but now they want to change something much more significantly that is going to impact the game a lot because Protoss is underperforming? Why not just go back to the Oracle changed? That seemed much more reasonable and I feel like the Oracle is heavily underused and would like to see it used much more.
I still don't get how this changes anything other than Protoss will do drops more often...
Like, really now, what "timing pushes" are changed by this? Explain it to me please--anyone.
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Well that is very hard to say beforehand. It is just a risk. For example I could imagine a sentry drop in the main becomes significantly stronger with speedprism, since it allows for less reaction time to get your army out of your natural into your main.
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On May 31 2013 06:11 Sissors wrote:
Well that is very hard to say beforehand. It is just a risk. For example I could imagine a sentry drop in the main becomes significantly stronger with speedprism, since it allows for less reaction time to get your army out of your natural into your main.
My friend's only in Plat so I wouldn't know about MC levels of play--but it always seemed like it was the gas for sentries slowing down that attack, not the speed of the prism? At least in plat play lol
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This change is almost as retarded as 50/50 burrow, holy crap was that broken.
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I really don't understand what Blizzard want to do with Protoss any more. They make them the strongest lategame race, give them excellent positional control with forcefields and the best AoE damage units in the game (Archons, HTs, Colossi), then in HotS they took away all the early game risks for Protoss with the MSC. Protoss overextends horribly? Recall. Early (like, pre-medivac old WoL timings) Terran pressure? Nexus Cannon. Want to be aggressive early on? Mothership Core stops Terran microing with time warp and then takes you home when things get scary. And now Warp Prism buffs: because a Terran having to prepare for proxy Oracles as well as all the other Protoss early-game options wasn't enough. Someone needs to explain to the devs that promoting "early aggression" by giving the best lategame race the tools to also arguably be the strongest early game race doesn't make the game more entertaining.
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EPT
