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On May 31 2013 04:49 EleanorRIgby wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2013 02:23 Toadvine wrote:On May 31 2013 01:53 sitromit wrote:On May 31 2013 00:19 ZenithM wrote:On May 31 2013 00:10 Jinky wrote:On May 31 2013 00:01 xAdra wrote:
I find the zergs complaining that "zerg has no reliable harassment options" quite epic, for the race that punishes minute mistakes the hardest. "Mutalisks are not considered harassment units".....really? Mutalisk tech switches are incredible against Protoss, especially since Storms don't do shit to mutalisks with their new regeneration. Mutalisks are a significant investment. Each Muta is the price of 1 Medivac, and it requires about 8 Mutalisks at a minimum to be effective for harass. That's the equivalent of 8 Medivacs just to harass. See how that doesn't compare? The game was never designed for all the races to have equivalent harass options. What is important is that you do have them, with mutalisks, speedlings, burrow (and burrow move), nydus, etc, etc.. Protoss on the other hand is more limited. Static anti-air pretty much deny most of their "single harass" units, so they're left with warp prisms. And blink stalkers maybe? that's kind of like mutalisks though, except that mutalisks are far better to mass :D Static anti-air denies all air harass? Really? I recommend you to check out some recent VODs of PvZs with Phoenix openings and count the drone kills when Zerg has 2 spores in each mineral line. 10-15 drone kills is pretty standard, even when zerg commits that significantly to static defense that early in the game. Pay a little attention next time when they show the resources lost tab in those games in the first 8-10 minutes, which doesn't include the cost of the static defense. Someone else said earlier in this thread, that people don't just want harass, what they really want is the ability to do game ending damage with harass. That's what all these "Protoss has no harass" complaints are really about. That's actually true, and Stargate openings in PvZ are the best example of how Protoss harass can work well. Amusingly enough this wasn't really intended by Blizzard. The thing that gave Phoenix that little push necessary to make them work consistently was the +1 range, originally intended to counteract Muta buffs. It was one of the best HotS Protoss changes nonetheless, Still, it's kinda true that Protoss can't really harass a Terran in a standard game, but that has more to do with general matchup dynamics than how good Warp Prisms of Phoenix are. Which is why this change would likely not change much at all there. proxy oracle builds beg to differ, they are borderline op and always kill 10+ workers and you cant counter attack toss because of nexus cannon.
Holy shit, can you please stop posting about balance and go improve your outlook and ability to play the game instead?
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Forget the balance aspect, I find it irritating that they feel the need to do anything to the protoss midgame. They have the strongest late game, and a really good early game as it is, God forbid they do without free speedprism to enhance their midgame. Zerg doesn't drop in the midgame either, so why is it such a big deal the Toss doesnt as well? Aren't the early game buffs and always good lategame enough? They need MORE?
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On May 31 2013 07:36 rikter wrote:
Forget the balance aspect, I find it irritating that they feel the need to do anything to the protoss midgame. They have the strongest late game, and a really good early game as it is, God forbid they do without free speedprism to enhance their midgame. Zerg doesn't drop in the midgame either, so why is it such a big deal the Toss doesnt as well? Aren't the early game buffs and always good lategame enough? They need MORE?
Because Zerg still harass in the midgame with Mutas.
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I'm glad Theognis brought up the speed prism colossus issue on Meta, because that was the first thing I thought of when I heard about this proposed change. I don't think this change can go through as it is, because while it may help the pvz matchup, early collosi drop would become insanely strong.
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juicyjames
United States3815 Posts
http://us.battle.net//sc2/en/blog/10100888
We’ve just published a custom version of Derelict Watcher, called "Derelict Watcher TE (2.0.8 Balance v1.0)", in which we’re testing small balance changes to StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm. Our plan is to first consider the changes below, and potentially test additional changes after reviewing your feedback. Here’s the situation: ProtossWarp Prism - The Gravitic Drive upgrade has been removed from the Robotics Bay.
- Movement speed increased from 2.5 to 3.375.
- Acceleration increased from 2.125 to 3.25.
If you’re interested in the reasoning behind these changes, you can check out this forum post recently made by David Kim and the StarCraft II Balance Team. Feedback based on playtesting is the most helpful information you can share with us, and we kindly ask that you take your time to play plenty of games on the balance test map before offering your thoughts on the changes above. As always, thank you for your continued feedback and support. We’d like to restate that we’re trying out the Warp Prism changes listed above to see how they affect Protoss play, and none of these changes are final. Once you feel you’ve had enough time to test thoroughly, we welcome you to join us in this discussion thread.
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On May 31 2013 08:05 Jalued wrote:
If you look at any WCS results it is clear that tosses are slightly under performing so I welcome this change. I don't expect such a large increase to stay, but you never know
Really? How underperforming is "slightly"? Can you provide a link that shows how you deduced this?
EDIT: To people that reference WCS korea (or any league that used WoL data to seed the new seasons), you have to realize that there werent going to be many protoss in this seasons Code S because of the previous season which was in WoL. Next season we may have a much better representation as the old WoL filters out to the new HotS.
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Canada11607 Posts
@juicyjames update
meh. This seems to be a trend with Blizzard. Just make the upgrade free. I much prefer having something that goes inside the warp-prism that incentivizes constant drop play. Then getting speed makes the drop play even more effective. There is both a micro cost and a tech cost, but it is made up due to the splash damage wrecking worker lines or sniping tech buildings or picking off spread out reinforcements.
Free speed just allows Protoss to do the same things faster. Mostly warp in their entire warp-gate bank into the enemy base.
(Although I wouldn't mind if they played around with the drop-off and pick-up speed. Something about it feels a little sloppy compared to reaver-shuttle micro.)
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So it is only in WCS EU that they are underperforming, which is only up to Group C on the wiki.
EDIT: Excluding EU (why they are doing so poorly there, I have no clue)
Protoss are 50-50 in PvT and 73-72 in PvZ
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On May 31 2013 07:39 snaga90 wrote:
I'm glad Theognis brought up the speed prism colossus issue on Meta, because that was the first thing I thought of when I heard about this proposed change. I don't think this change can go through as it is, because while it may help the pvz matchup, early collosi drop would become insanely strong.
The best case scenario is each race has 2-4 "overly strong" plays that they play off of each other. This creates the most fun dynamic and leads to the whole "best players will win more often" thing that BW fans have been clamoring for.
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On May 31 2013 07:40 juicyjames wrote:http://us.battle.net//sc2/en/blog/10100888Show nested quote +We’ve just published a custom version of Derelict Watcher, called "Derelict Watcher TE (2.0.8 Balance v1.0)", in which we’re testing small balance changes to StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm. Our plan is to first consider the changes below, and potentially test additional changes after reviewing your feedback. Here’s the situation: ProtossWarp Prism - The Gravitic Drive upgrade has been removed from the Robotics Bay.
- Movement speed increased from 2.5 to 3.375.
- Acceleration increased from 2.125 to 3.25.
If you’re interested in the reasoning behind these changes, you can check out this forum post recently made by David Kim and the StarCraft II Balance Team. Feedback based on playtesting is the most helpful information you can share with us, and we kindly ask that you take your time to play plenty of games on the balance test map before offering your thoughts on the changes above. As always, thank you for your continued feedback and support. We’d like to restate that we’re trying out the Warp Prism changes listed above to see how they affect Protoss play, and none of these changes are final. Once you feel you’ve had enough time to test thoroughly, we welcome you to join us in this discussion thread.
Increase to acceleration too? Bring on Immortal/Colo drops!
But, yes. The removal of yet another upgrade is a cause for worry. I like the suggestion above of increasing the base speed and acceleration slightly, but still keeping the upgrade (and maybe increase that too a little). Also, as Falling suggests, a WP specific incentive to drop play would be handy - such as faster shield regeneration in the WP. Still, as it is, it will be good in the hands of Protoss players with the skill to use it well. There is something very cool about seeing Immortal drops taking out buildings (or Colo lazering mineral lines) while Zealots warp in around them.
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On May 31 2013 08:44 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2013 07:40 juicyjames wrote:http://us.battle.net//sc2/en/blog/10100888We’ve just published a custom version of Derelict Watcher, called "Derelict Watcher TE (2.0.8 Balance v1.0)", in which we’re testing small balance changes to StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm. Our plan is to first consider the changes below, and potentially test additional changes after reviewing your feedback. Here’s the situation: ProtossWarp Prism - The Gravitic Drive upgrade has been removed from the Robotics Bay.
- Movement speed increased from 2.5 to 3.375.
- Acceleration increased from 2.125 to 3.25.
If you’re interested in the reasoning behind these changes, you can check out this forum post recently made by David Kim and the StarCraft II Balance Team. Feedback based on playtesting is the most helpful information you can share with us, and we kindly ask that you take your time to play plenty of games on the balance test map before offering your thoughts on the changes above. As always, thank you for your continued feedback and support. We’d like to restate that we’re trying out the Warp Prism changes listed above to see how they affect Protoss play, and none of these changes are final. Once you feel you’ve had enough time to test thoroughly, we welcome you to join us in this discussion thread. Increase to acceleration too? Bring on Immortal/Colo drops! But, yes. The removal of yet another upgrade is a cause for worry. I like the suggestion above of increasing the base speed and acceleration slightly, but still keeping the upgrade (and maybe increase that too a little). Also, as Falling suggests, a WP specific incentive to drop play would be handy - such as faster shield regeneration in the WP. Still, as it is it will be good in the hands of Protoss players with the skill to use it well. There is something very cool about seeing Immortal drops taking out buildings (or Colo lazering mineral lines) while Zealots warp in around them.
Wouldn't simply increasing base speed and acceleration and having an upgrade to speed up the Prism shifting speed be better?
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Isn't that time already pretty fast? IIRC the WP does not have to be fully phased to begin warp-in.
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On May 31 2013 08:55 aZealot wrote:
Isn't that time already pretty fast? IIRC the WP does not have to be fully phased to begin warp-in.
Its not the phasing in, its' the phasing out.
Too often I'd be able to snipe my friend's prism because of how long it takes him to phase in--wtf vikings--phase out and before he could run its dead.
It'd be cool if the thing about prisms being able to actually make dudes and run around at the same time.
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No, that's the actual drop part. It would be OP if the WP could insta warp-in and then scoot off without a cost for that, either in terms of risking its own destruction, or cancelling the warp-in because it phased out of warp mode too soon.
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I stand by giving the WP an ability to energize HT energy so that storm drops can come back. Emphasize harass, not "holy shit now I just need to ever build 1 WP because its so fast it wont die"
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On May 31 2013 09:01 aZealot wrote:
No, that's the actual drop part. It would be OP if the WP could insta warp-in and then scoot off without a cost for that, either in terms of risking its own destruction, or cancelling the warp-in because it phased out of warp mode too soon.
Im fine with cancelling the warp-in, it's the escape with the prism part. I too often see phasing in the prism costing the prism its life. Being able to run the unit away is more important that being able to warp in units.
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I changed my mind to agreeing with the change earlier until I read the acceleration change as well. I agree with buffing things instead of nerfing, but soon enough all the upgrades are going to disappear because the units will already have them. Feels C&C-ish to me.
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On May 31 2013 09:12 Spektor wrote:
I changed my mind to agreeing with the change earlier until I read the acceleration change as well. I agree with buffing things instead of nerfing, but soon enough all the upgrades are going to disappear because the units will already have them. Feels C&C-ish to me.
dood, the upgrades! they're vanishing before my eyes! what game am i playing?!
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EPT
