EPT
Based on my enjoyment of watching the highest level of play, combined with my mid-masters (bad, but still) ladder experience, I am very happy with where the game is. Feels fun, dynamic, not fully figured out.
Heart of the Swarm Balance Update – May 13, 2013 - Page 16
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IPA
United States3206 Posts
Based on my enjoyment of watching the highest level of play, combined with my mid-masters (bad, but still) ladder experience, I am very happy with where the game is. Feels fun, dynamic, not fully figured out. | ||
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Jasiwel
United States146 Posts
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Rollora
2450 Posts
On May 14 2013 10:26 Redrot wrote: As a zergie, I think this is okay, but I feel there are better options, such as deprojectilizing fungal. more like completely removing it? Or at least put one ability away: either it damages or it stops units. and a spell shouldn't be too simple to use either, just learn to use it | ||
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( bush
321 Posts
On May 16 2013 05:58 Snowbear wrote: Is it??? Where do you see imbalance? In tourneys? No. In ladder? No. There is 0 imbalance atm, and you are still whining. Why? Because you want your easy wol times back? Well let me tell you, this won't happen. The game is balanced now, all races have a hard time. You actually see zergs doing FINE vs terran with a WOL composition (muta ling bling) vs the new sick things terrans got (mines, speedvac, hellbats). Can you imagine that? A race is using pure WOL units, and is doing FINE against sick new units. Imagine you start using your new stuff like speedhydras, swarmhosts and vipers. In a few weeks you will feel so embarrassed for complaining so much, and I'm 100% sure of this. Couldnt agree more. I just realize i've never thought about that, WoL zerg style (with the minor ultra/muta buff) is going head to head with the completely revamped terran from HotS. Thats the moment you notice how bullshit Wings of Liberty TvZ was. | ||
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sibs
635 Posts
On May 16 2013 10:18 ( bush wrote: Couldnt agree more. I just realize i've never thought about that, WoL zerg style (with the minor ultra/muta buff) is going head to head with the completely revamped terran from HotS. Thats the moment you notice how bullshit Wings of Liberty TvZ was. That would be true, if mutas didn't get a huge buff. (O you say "minor" ultra/muta buff  "minor" )The game is pretty balanced at pro level, the only MU that is somewhat problematic is still TvZ, Terran is beating Zerg about as much as Zerg beat Terran before Hots, when terran's rightfully QQ'd nonstop about TvZ. Stats for past 15 days: PvT 188–179 (51%) PvZ 263–244 (52%) TvZ 254–191 (57%) | ||
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TheZanthex
United States144 Posts
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Benjamin99
4176 Posts
On May 16 2013 10:07 Rollora wrote: more like completely removing it? Or at least put one ability away: either it damages or it stops units. and a spell shouldn't be too simple to use either, just learn to use it problem with fungal is is not up to the zerg if they hit or miss but his opponent. And that is just wrong in my oppinion | ||
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Rollora
2450 Posts
On May 14 2013 20:27 Sated wrote: Protoss and Zerg players are not "doing some things extremely wrong" if they lose to Firebat drops. If you make even a slight mistake against Firebats then you will lose a lot of workers because of how they deal their damage. Neither Protoss nor Zerg have a (mineral only!!!) unit that can deal so much (splash!!!) damage to workers without the opponent making a monumental mistake. EDIT: Later in the game, they become less of a problem. They're really only as dangerous as a normal drop later in the game since people should have Cannons/Spores/Blink Stalkers/Templar/Turrets/Vikings/Mutalisks/whatever to help deflect drops... but in the early game they are a massive problem. you say it yourself: later in the game, they are no problem. So scout more: if opponent goes 1 base aggression with hellbats, and you go greedy base after base not thinking about defense, I don't think it's the hellbats fault. I am a greedy player myself always go for the fast expand, no matter which race, but as soon as I sense/scout hellbats i take precautions. It's not hard and there is a reason why we recently see so many pro gamers doing the perfect hellbat drop but still doing zero damage- because it can be avoided to be taken from them. Also you mention that other races don't have such a strong unit for harassement: which isn't true and you know it yourself by mentioning mineral only, which isn't exactly the case cause for hellbat drops in early game you need ofc to invest lots of gas into infrastructure, as well as for dropping you need some medivacs. The last point is interesting, cause Terran bio requires medivacs real soon in the game so if you make these double hellbat drops, you invest a huge amount into something that if it doesn't do damage you are far behind, you lack support units in a possible counter (the medivacs) and if you lose these double drops (or maybe even only 1) you still lost a lot of resources (2 hellbats= 200 min, Medivac 100/100) time, and the resources that ran into buildings, maybe not actually useful at this and the next few momens (like early armory). All these investements, as statet earlier, add up and are an incredible hit/disadvantage to the player who does this out of 1 base and doesnt do damage. As you stated out, in mid/lategame its no problem, so you obviously meant this one base harassement/allin build. So whatever the race is, the tip is, if you know or think of the possibility of hellbats in the game, just stop being all that greedy: don't make 10 more drones instead of 1 small round of roaches+ crawlers for defense purposes or something like that. Same is for toss (cannons, stalker whatever) or terrans (turret+ marauder or maybe even bunker next to mineral line). I find it funny that most players who complain about them in the games I use them, i check out their replays and previous games and all they can do is drone up/probe up to a specific amount and then just run over the oponent with imba army. I am not sure if that is how blizzard designed the races, I think it should more be of a constant battle and not leaning back, maxing a-moving. | ||
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Rollora
2450 Posts
On May 16 2013 10:27 sibs wrote: That would be true, if mutas didn't get a huge buff. (O you say "minor" ultra/muta buff "minor" )The game is pretty balanced at pro level, the only MU that is somewhat problematic is still TvZ, Terran is beating Zerg about as much as Zerg beat Terran before Hots, when terran's rightfully QQ'd nonstop about TvZ. Stats for past 15 days: PvT 188–179 (51%) PvZ 263–244 (52%) TvZ 254–191 (57%) have the same feeling about it by watching progames. But on the other hand, things can turn around quickly: First: the metagame can still change a lot, I have seen pro-zergs just crushing terrans lately, if they foresee everything they do. Ofc the new abilities, though not many, of terrans, are used to a max right now. To get an early lead or to make the game even when Z plays too greedy. 3 Things have changed in TvZ from POV of the terran: Hellbat, boost and the widow mine. I excluded the reaper as it doesn't do anything for mid/endgame AFAIK. I think that we have seen awesome counters to all 3 things: hellbats being countered and not doing any damage if zerg is aware of them and has some defense at home (maybe not having whole army in 1 hotkey helps  ), medivac boost clearly gives some troubles but is also nicely figured out I think. Biggest Problem is combination of the 2 (hellbat+boost).I don't like the mine for adding so much randomness into a battle. I wouldn't mind it being changed, although i think it has the biggest part of why T seems now stronger than Z. So yeah, it could be that there are some changes needed or just metagame changes? Could also be, that Zergplayers who gained some ranks and leagues due to Zerg being slightly OP in WoL, now have to face the Terrans that may originally be better and now have the tools again to strike back :D Another reason why I think there should be a change in game (units) or metagame is, that when watching TvZ it feels like terran have the same unit composition every game (besides they do the awkward mech thing :D). | ||
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-NegativeZero-
United States2142 Posts
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sibs
635 Posts
On May 16 2013 11:02 Rollora wrote: Could also be, that Zergplayers who gained some ranks and leagues due to Zerg being slightly OP in WoL, now have to face the Terrans that may originally be better and now have the tools again to strike back :D Another reason why I think there should be a change in game (units) or metagame is, that when watching TvZ it feels like terran have the same unit composition every game (besides they do the awkward mech thing :D). I don't think TvZ is going to go trough any major changes unless something gets changed, it's pretty stable how it's played right now. Honestly the matchup might be actually balanced once you get to the skill level of the very best zergs(I'm talking Life/Roro/Soulkey skill), I don't think Zerg is going to beat terran by meta-gaming, there isn't much to meta-game vs biomine, it's good vs whatever zerg does. That being said, the amount of terrans with ridiculous win ratios at TvZ at master's is rather silly. | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On May 16 2013 10:07 Rollora wrote: more like completely removing it? Or at least put one ability away: either it damages or it stops units. and a spell shouldn't be too simple to use either, just learn to use it Yea, lets make the problem (zerg got simply no other ways to counter zerg then more mutas) even bigger... | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On May 16 2013 10:35 Benjamin99 wrote: problem with fungal is is not up to the zerg if they hit or miss but his opponent. And that is just wrong in my oppinion So you think an "undodgeable attack which locks units down" is a good thing to have in such a game? Think about that again from the receiving end ... and from a side which doesnt have such a spell at all ... maybe you get the problem behind Fungal. The "problem of Mutalisk wars" isnt going to be solved by buffing Fungals or Spores, because the problem is that Mutalisks are too damn fast. They had their speed buffed AND they got added regeneration and both of these things make using the unit much safer. The wise choice is to take these buffs out again or at least nerf their movement speed of 4 by a lot to make them slower than they were before the speed buff. | ||
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On May 16 2013 10:27 sibs wrote: That would be true, if mutas didn't get a huge buff. (O you say "minor" ultra/muta buff "minor" )The game is pretty balanced at pro level, the only MU that is somewhat problematic is still TvZ, Terran is beating Zerg about as much as Zerg beat Terran before Hots, when terran's rightfully QQ'd nonstop about TvZ. Stats for past 15 days: PvT 188–179 (51%) PvZ 263–244 (52%) TvZ 254–191 (57%) Muta buff is minor in TvZ. Ultra buff is bigger. Don't mix those up. And when we see Zergs kill Terrans with just muta/ling/bling, I don't think ultras should be included in the discussion. But you started with a strawman, and then finish with dubious stats. I'm not interested in stats with Zergs who still haven't caught up in the meta, or don't have the skill required to deal with the new Terran units. Mainly Korean Zergs, and a select few foreigners matter when it comes to balance. And Terran QQ'd when foreign Zergs were beating top Korean Terrans regularly! I don't think I've seen the reverse yet. In fact, some exceptional foreign Zergs are beating Korean Terrans in HotS. You would almost never see top foreign Terrans beat Korean zergs, let alone top foreign Zergs, in late WoL. /edit And even when top Terrans beat top Zerg, or good Zergs, it would be a grueling match where they just barely eek out a win. Or proxy 2 rax lol | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On May 16 2013 11:19 -NegativeZero- wrote: 100% disapprove with this change. This doesn't fix the muta problem, all this does is make it easier for zergs to turtle vs mutas. If you want to give zerg a way to actually fight mutas while still suffering the mobility disadvantage that they should vs a flying harass unit, then buff the hydra (or at least its anti-air). Why do you think BUFFING is the right choice to fix this situation? If you buff the Hydra - even if you only give them "vs biological air" buffs (which is stupid IMO) - you are going to make them much better against every other Zerg air unit (Overlords, Overseers, Corruptors, Broodlords) and disturbe the balance between those ... which might require yet another change ... which will then require another and so on. Hydras have enough dps to kill anything fast enough and the real problem is that "Mutalisks dont stand still" ... i.e. their speed. | ||
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Shin_Gouki
United States313 Posts
On May 16 2013 11:47 plogamer wrote: Muta buff is minor in TvZ. Ultra buff is bigger. Don't mix those up. And when we see Zergs kill Terrans with just muta/ling/bling, I don't think ultras should be included in the discussion. But you started with a strawman, and then finish with dubious stats. I'm not interested in stats with Zergs who still haven't caught up in the meta, or don't have the skill required to deal with the new Terran units. Mainly Korean Zergs, and a select few foreigners matter when it comes to balance. And Terran QQ'd when foreign Zergs were beating top Korean Terrans regularly! I don't think I've seen the reverse yet. In fact, some exceptional foreign Zergs are beating Korean Terrans in HotS. You would almost never see top foreign Terrans beat Korean zergs, let alone top foreign Zergs, in late WoL. /edit And even when top Terrans beat top Zerg, or good Zergs, it would be a grueling match where they just barely eek out a win. Or proxy 2 rax lol A lot of QQ was going around because of Theo beating JD recently in WCS, so surely you've seen it. The game IS fine for the most part. | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On May 16 2013 11:44 Rabiator wrote: So you think an "undodgeable attack which locks units down" is a good thing to have in such a game? Think about that again from the receiving end ... and from a side which doesnt have such a spell at all ... maybe you get the problem behind Fungal. The "problem of Mutalisk wars" isnt going to be solved by buffing Fungals or Spores, because the problem is that Mutalisks are too damn fast. They had their speed buffed AND they got added regeneration and both of these things make using the unit much safer. The wise choice is to take these buffs out again or at least nerf their movement speed of 4 by a lot to make them slower than they were before the speed buff. Can we nerf medivac speed to compensate then? Cause it is obvious that the muta speedbuff happened cause of the ubervacs. If you think mutas can't catch them now, wait till you nerf them. | ||
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On May 16 2013 12:00 Assirra wrote: Can we nerf medivac speed to compensate then? Cause it is obvious that the muta speedbuff happened cause of the ubervacs. If you think mutas can't catch them now, wait till you nerf them. Then TvP will be affected. Not to mention that Terrans have to drop against zergs with buffed ultras, unless they're ahead by a lot. Snute vs Heart showed us all the power of ultras. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On May 16 2013 12:00 Assirra wrote: Can we nerf medivac speed to compensate then? Cause it is obvious that the muta speedbuff happened cause of the ubervacs. If you think mutas can't catch them now, wait till you nerf them. I have no objection to getting rid of the silly turboboost which makes drop harrassment too easy and efficient. Sadly it isnt my decision to make ... On May 16 2013 13:27 plogamer wrote: Then TvP will be affected. Not to mention that Terrans have to drop against zergs with buffed ultras, unless they're ahead by a lot. Snute vs Heart showed us all the power of ultras. Ultras are FAR later than Medivacs and you can have far more Medivacs than Ultras. | ||
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dshsdhk
Korea (South)61 Posts
The question has a simple answer. Just bring back the infestor of the end of (WOL). Now i gonna explain why... 1- this solution will fix the muta issue @ ZVZ and also allow zergs to play with ground combo units once again, such as roach/infestor etc. 2 - zergs will recover the variety of the unit combos that we had on WOL @ ZVT. Its pretty obvious that @ hots zerg has only one viable and effective style which is muta ling bane into ultralisks... Roach hydra isnt good vs bio and any decent terran can beat this pretty easy if they dont get punished to some attack/cheese early game. Doing that zerg will be able to go (muta/ling/bane) (infestor/ling/bane) (roach/ling/infestor) (hydra/roach). The match and the game will become more entertainment for the players and spectators. 3 - This will never broke the game, why? Infestors were good but they have never been OP or broken, specially in the end of wol where infestors became pretty balanced. But we cant say the same thing of the infestors of HOTS, the fact is that blizzard gave new units to zergs but they nerfed infestor to the point that they kinda removed the unit out of the game, there is only few situations that infestors are cost effective right now. So why not bring back the balanced infestor and fix the game? Terrans have mines/battlehellions turbomedivacs... I honestly dont understand why its so difficult to understand that... Blizzard could even keep the fungal = 30damage vs armored, i dont care... But this stupid projectile must be changed. Im 100% sure that the game would become MUCH BETTER with these changes... | ||
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