Heart of the Swarm Balance Update – May 13, 2013 - Page 18

On May 16 2013 05:58 Snowbear wrote:


Is it??? Where do you see imbalance? In tourneys? No. In ladder? No. There is 0 imbalance atm, and you are still whining. Why? Because you want your easy wol times back? Well let me tell you, this won't happen. The game is balanced now, all races have a hard time.

You actually see zergs doing FINE vs terran with a WOL composition (muta ling bling) vs the new sick things terrans got (mines, speedvac, hellbats). Can you imagine that? A race is using pure WOL units, and is doing FINE against sick new units. Imagine you start using your new stuff like speedhydras, swarmhosts and vipers. In a few weeks you will feel so embarrassed for complaining so much, and I'm 100% sure of this.

On May 17 2013 01:56 Chocobo wrote:

Implying zerg even has the option to use HotS units in the first 15 minutes of the game. SH just isn't a good unit vs non-mech terran, and everything else that's new for zerg comes at hive. Reaper/mine/hellbat/speedvacs are there for all of the early and mid game.

With the infestor being nerfed, and with it now being even worse than before against drop play... it's really not a great option. Zergs are going muta/ling/bling because it's the only half decent option for fighting terran now... it's hardly because "lol my race is so good I don't even need to use HotS units".

On May 17 2013 01:56 Chocobo wrote:

Implying zerg even has the option to use HotS units in the first 15 minutes of the game. SH just isn't a good unit vs non-mech terran, and everything else that's new for zerg comes at hive. Reaper/mine/hellbat/speedvacs are there for all of the early and mid game.

With the infestor being nerfed, and with it now being even worse than before against drop play... it's really not a great option. Zergs are going muta/ling/bling because it's the only half decent option for fighting terran now... it's hardly because "lol my race is so good I don't even need to use HotS units".

On May 17 2013 03:03 Snowbear wrote:


You say that SH's are not good.

Like ultralisks were not good in WOL?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=136492
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=171770
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=176375
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=185278
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=187194


Then stephano comes and stomps korean terrans with ultralisks.

So yes, in zerg words, the swarmhost is "worthless" , just like the ultralisk in wol ;d

On May 17 2013 03:12 RaFox17 wrote:


where in that post did it talk about ultras being trash? He was talking about the first 15 mins when you rarely have 6+ ultras.

On May 17 2013 03:41 syno wrote:

Read the threads man, there were so many complaints on the ultralisk.

On May 17 2013 04:05 Blezza wrote:


And that somehow has something to do with swarm host viability vs Terran? some random guys complaining about Ultras in WoL?

On May 17 2013 07:54 Snowbear wrote:


Oh yeah, because now the SH complains don't come from random guys? Seriously... You zergs are just so stubborn. Believe me, swarmhosts covered by an army are really strong. They would make mines completely useless.

For example: ever thought about a pure ling into mass swarmhost strat? Like stephano did with pure ling into mass infestor hive? Lings are so cheap, so you can put your money into spines, spores and swarmhosts.

On May 17 2013 08:25 haffy wrote:


I believe you when you say swarm hosts are really strong when covered. But you have to understand how mobile Terran are in the match up, and static defense can slow down drops it doesn't prevent them.

It also leaves you a shity way of killing off medivacs, which is pretty important, while not even giving you half as many options as the standard ling/banelin/muta build which easily transitions into ultra or bl with infester support.

What would a swarm host army do against Terran bio that makes it a good compromise to lose the mobility, counter attack options, upgrade synergy, strong timings and drop defense?

On May 17 2013 12:18 Holo82 wrote:
swarmhost /hydra is the most awful thing to play against as bio terran. I think its impossible, like it is impossible to play pure bio against full mech.

5 or so Hydras in the back, + spines / spores shut down medivac drops so brutally hard, and swarmhost vs bio is extremely efficient. As a bio terran, its near impossible to charge in and kill them shs, exept the zerg makes a big mistake.
Luckily Zerg mostly have no idea how to position strategily, so they often make mistakes , that no terran would do when meching (a click with bunch of lings or roaches is all they know it seems.. they kind of move shs directly in front of your nose and burrow them, with out cover , or run into a place where they get sourrounded by tanks and have no way to retreat. it doesnt work like that...)

The only way to deal with swarmhosts as terrans is mech. 15+ siegetanks, covered by vikings, to kill locust waves without loosing resources, unsiege, move forward. this is the only way to gain ground, without wasting minerals. force zerg to retreat, or loose some shs. Its like playing against terran mech, and i would say that swarmhost / hydra is the Zergmech, .Iits awsome in cost effectivness, u cannot go air heavy due to hydras / spores / spines camping , and slowly get pushed back. The most important thing is to watch out for broodlord transition, and having the starports at the ready.

On May 17 2013 08:54 ChristianS wrote:

Yeah, swarm hosts are terrible at defending drops. On the other hand, they destroy bio in straight-up engagements, especially with a little baneling support. The only way to fight a swarm host composition head-on is to find way to avoid engagements, then kill a round of locusts and advance forward suddenly, getting on top of the swarm hosts in between locust rounds. The only way to fight banelings is to kite and retreat and target-fire until all the banelings are dead. You can't retreat and advance at the same time, so if you use the banelings to force a bio army away until new locusts spawn, you can just force the Terran army to keep taking chip damage from locusts without getting to hit the swarm hosts.

Suppose you build a play style around the following principles:
1) Swarm hosts keep pressure on the Terran. Speedlings are used to scout forward so you can safely advance the swarm hosts, but the lings don't need to be in large numbers and aren't the primary damage-dealers, so you don't need melee upgrades for your lings.

2) Banelings accompany the swarm hosts to prevent Terran bio from getting the jump on your swarm hosts. Overseers fly behind the locust waves to spot widow mines. Widow mines might be able to take out some locust waves, but not without losing a few widow mines, and locusts are free. Queens and overlords should accompany your army to spread creep wherever you go. Queens, banelings, and locusts all benefit from ranged attack upgrades.

3) The Pneumatized Carapace upgrade should come out relatively quickly. Overlords should be spread very well to spot for drops. With the speed upgrade a viking cannot easily clear all overlords and make drops invisible again; just move the overlords, send something to kill the viking, and move the overlords back very quickly. Any medivac that moves out, you should see coming well in advance.

4) Speed hydralisks will respond to drops. Hydralisks are not as fast as zerglings and mutas, but with good overlord spread you should see drops in time to respond. With some static defense around to delay drops until hydralisks arrive to defend, you should be able to avoid losing excessive drones or important tech structures. Hydralisks also benefit from ranged attack upgrades.

5) Late-game composition is swarm host + hydralisk + vipers, with overseers to spot widow mines. With detection, widow mines are quite ineffective against this composition. Locust/hydralisk trades very well against bio, even before the viper support arrives.

Seems pretty good to me.

On May 17 2013 16:56 gingerfluffmuff wrote:

lol. I can see you dont watch high level sc2 (like GSL and PL). How can you hold the 140 +2/+2 supply push from T while also securing or running your 4th base?
One nice scan from T between the Nat and the 3rd, when he sees a few spines/Queens/SH/Banes he will drop you with 4 MediVacs or more. Why should T fight head on?
What are you gonna do when T takes his 4th and 5th with planetaries in some corners of the map with a few widowmines to spot if your army moves there? You gonna commit to take out the base?

On May 17 2013 16:56 gingerfluffmuff wrote:

lol. I can see you dont watch high level sc2 (like GSL and PL). How can you hold the 140 +2/+2 supply push from T while also securing or running your 4th base?
One nice scan from T between the Nat and the 3rd, when he sees a few spines/Queens/SH/Banes he will drop you with 4 MediVacs or more. Why should T fight head on?
What are you gonna do when T takes his 4th and 5th with planetaries in some corners of the map with a few widowmines to spot if your army moves there? You gonna commit to take out the base?

On May 17 2013 17:34 Snowbear wrote:


He can't build up his big army, because you keep pressuring him with mass swarmhosts + upgraded lings. Lings are cheap = more investment in swarmhosts possible = terran under pressure. I want you zergs to start rallying mass ling + swarmhost to the terran third-nat around 10:00,

On May 17 2013 17:50 Forumite wrote:
Spore crawlers need an overall damage buff, and maybe a bonus against light. It´s always been the weakest static defence structure.

On May 17 2013 17:51 Decendos wrote:


10:00 is the time 2 base mutas arrive. so basically its the same time 2 base SH arrive at the T base because they come out faster but need to travel longer around the map. so you get out like around 6 SHs by that time on 2 base at 10:00. thats outright horrible.

you need to go 3 base SH if at all vs bio. and at that time they are out way later like 11:30 to 12:00.

SH are great vs mech but since bio is able to just amove over the locusts once they have some hellbats and enough medivacs thats horrible. what SH do though is force the T to do at least one of the 3 things:

- build hellbats instead of mines
- build tanks
- never engage and do mass doomdrops.

maybe blades ling bling muta into SH style might work out but going straight into SHs has huge disadvantages. also you need 3 evos = even less SHs and need a nydus with them (without nydus = all in since if you lose a fight you lose ALL SHs) which is even less SHs. so thats 400 gas for nydus + +1 range attack. oh +200 gas for locust upgrade lol.

SH is bad vs drops AND in a straight up engagement vs bio. thats what makes them horrible vs bio. if it wasnt that big of an investment, yeah they would be viable. as is, they arent.