EPTHeart of the Swarm Balance Update – May 13, 2013 - Page 17
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Daswollvieh
5553 Posts
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
On May 16 2013 11:19 -NegativeZero- wrote: 100% disapprove with this change. This doesn't fix the muta problem, all this does is make it easier for zergs to turtle vs mutas. If you want to give zerg a way to actually fight mutas while still suffering the mobility disadvantage that they should vs a flying harass unit, then buff the hydra (or at least its anti-air). From what I've seen from people here is that mutas are actually weak in a straight up fight, these spores allow you to protect your base without having to have your army there. | ||
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OfficeBrahzz
121 Posts
i think these are likely the future balance problems that will be seen in hots 1) tons of voidrays vs zerg. pretty much when toss builds get heavily sorted out to find the safe/proper way to get voidrays while being safe vs all things, then the VR will be shown to be imba. right now zergs win cuz either the toss isnt trying to mass voidrays, or maybe the zerg hits hard with mutas fast and the toss got voidrays instead of pheonix. a maxed army of voidrays slaughters a maxed army of mutas but when the zerg hits early and its 10mutas vs 3voidrays the voidrays lose my point is the "army" of voidrays is imbalanced, but of course in order to "get" that army a protoss needs to fight against zerg in all other stages of the game until he completes the army my point is simply, a maxed voidray army with some storm is basically unbeatable my solution to this would be something like maybe increase VR charge cooldown to like 3 minutes. that should help out alot allowing hydra+queen+corrupter+fungal to fight against VR alot more effectively also what fungal is only 30 damage to armored? it should be 40 damage again like in WoL 2) neural parasite is pretty stupid. like.... its use is so cliche is the enemy ever going to mass massive units? whats the point really considering the huge upgrade cost heres my idea for change NP make NP no longer require an upgrade make NP 50 energy make NP no longer target massive turn archons into a new unit type called "sami massive". this functions EXACTLY the same as massive except its not "called" massive meaning NP still works on archons boom, now early infestors will be strong, powerful, and useful against voidrays, tanks, even small things like ravens/ht with this new 50 energy free NP I feel using NP on archons is important so i kept it in | ||
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dargul
Russian Federation125 Posts
Infestors is powerful enough so they won't buff NP. | ||
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Kim Hyuna
Korea (South)264 Posts
This free unit is very good in containing while mass expand behind. I had hard time and hate the most playing with locust spam. Every ladder games i played involve zero locust play and when they meet deathball consist of voids, colo, chargelot/archon they QQ imba. | ||
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Snotling
Germany885 Posts
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On May 16 2013 16:14 OfficeBrahzz wrote: i think these are likely the future balance problems that will be seen in hots 1) tons of voidrays vs zerg. pretty much when toss builds get heavily sorted out to find the safe/proper way to get voidrays while being safe vs all things, then the VR will be shown to be imba. right now zergs win cuz either the toss isnt trying to mass voidrays, or maybe the zerg hits hard with mutas fast and the toss got voidrays instead of pheonix. a maxed army of voidrays slaughters a maxed army of mutas but when the zerg hits early and its 10mutas vs 3voidrays the voidrays lose my point is the "army" of voidrays is imbalanced, but of course in order to "get" that army a protoss needs to fight against zerg in all other stages of the game until he completes the army my point is simply, a maxed voidray army with some storm is basically unbeatable my solution to this would be something like maybe increase VR charge cooldown to like 3 minutes. that should help out alot allowing hydra+queen+corrupter+fungal to fight against VR alot more effectively No it's not, mass infestors/SH will shut this down hard, Protoss pretty much is held back by the waves of spawnlings, infestors burrow move under the SH pop up and FG. Zerg is pretty much imba. Go ahead in the unit tester, and test it out. Cost-for-cost VRs pretty much have to kite the spawns just to keep the base alive and if they over-extend the infestors can chain-FG them to death, add in a spore forest of 6 well spread crawlers and you guys pretty much win the game already. I mean come on. Spend some time figuring out the unit counters and building a BO around it like the players who main T or P instead of whining every time the T & P players come up with something new. BTW are you a fan of idrA? *shakes head* On May 16 2013 16:14 OfficeBrahzz wrote: 2) neural parasite is pretty stupid. like.... its use is so cliche is the enemy ever going to mass massive units? whats the point really considering the huge upgrade cost heres my idea for change NP make NP no longer require an upgrade make NP 50 energy make NP no longer target massive turn archons into a new unit type called "sami massive". this functions EXACTLY the same as massive except its not "called" massive meaning NP still works on archons boom, now early infestors will be strong, powerful, and useful against voidrays, tanks, even small things like ravens/ht with this new 50 energy free NP I feel using NP on archons is important so i kept it in So the race with the most accessible spell caster tech path which also has the longest range spell (FG) needs more power to its existing powerful mind-control spell. I don't what else to say... | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 16 2013 16:38 Kim Hyuna wrote: I think Zerg should learn how to abuse locust. This free unit is very good in containing while mass expand behind. I had hard time and hate the most playing with locust spam. Mass expanding behind doesn't really work because a single warp prism wins you the game then, as zerg won't have any defense at all (and his swarm hosts are all far away). Also you have to keep on spamming units to keep the contain up, once a Protoss has enough force to push through the locusts all the hosts just evaporate in an instant and zerg is flat out dead. At least, those seem to be the guidelines for midgame swarm host play we have so far. | ||
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Kim Hyuna
Korea (South)264 Posts
On May 16 2013 17:06 Big J wrote: Mass expanding behind doesn't really work because a single warp prism wins you the game then, as zerg won't have any defense at all. Also you have to keep on spamming units to keep the contain up, once a Protoss has enough force to push through the locusts all the hosts just evaporate in an instant and zerg is flat out dead. At least, those seem to be the guidelines for midgame swarm host play we have so far. I lol'd at this. Learn to spine it up. How many times where Zerg spine it up during base race and win? How many times where Zerg tech switch from hydra/roaches into mass mutas and win? You should see how TLO spam locust efficiency and win him games easily. Protoss required at least 3 base to get deathball (i'm taking about ground +3 and air +3) up. By containing him from getting out and getting 3rd easily win you the game UNLESS you screwed it up badly. | ||
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UltiBahamut
United States102 Posts
On May 16 2013 16:01 Targe wrote: From what I've seen from people here is that mutas are actually weak in a straight up fight, these spores allow you to protect your base without having to have your army there. That really isn't true. By the time you have a large enough army to be able to beat through their muta/ling/bling and force them to counter attack they will be able to essentially one shot spores. The only difference is they might lose a few more mutas in the process unless the defending zerg player throws up a LOT of spores like 5+ in a line at each base. But that doesn't deal with ling run bys anyways. NegativeZero is correct here in that muta/ling/bane will beat most compositions if controlled correctly (good splits/flanks etc) until the hive tech ultras come out which will destroy pretty much everything anyways. It is much like fighting marine/marauder/thor except the thor has a way of splashing air and ground. If banes hit roaches/marauder then the muta/ling/bane person will die, but if they hit the infestors/hydras then they will be able to clean up with the mutas. So really once again. NegativeZero is correct that if they want to fix this they need to fix zergs AA. Either our Hydras or Infestors. Now i know no one wants the infestor roach wars we use to have but Infestor's AA have really been nerfed to shit in ZvZ directly and indirectly. Indirectly the regen on the mutas has surprisingly changed how effective fungal is. While the dmg of the fungal to mutas hasn't changed at all, their ability to regen health along with the direct nerf via the projectile of fungal makes it surprisingly difficult to chain fungal mutas to death. (i would state the number changes but i don't know what it is  ). Now while i think this is overall okay because this part means the infestor is a support unit, NEEDING another unit to finish off the splash damage it has. This type of requirement is good for the game.BUT with the Infested Terrans in their current state of no longer receiving upgrades advantages (which was a stupid nerf that really has made infestor into such a crappy unit that it rarely sees use in any game.) Because before when you were getting upgrades for your roach/hydra and were getting the infestors out you could fungal and throw out IT and know they will actually kill the mutas. This type of combination is the only reason that roach/infestor worked so well in WoL, however this is no longer possible as most zergs assume Muta vs Muta and get Armor. Which makes IT's dps drop significanty. The issue with the infestors overall lack of AA damage means that the zerg HAS to get hydras out as their first and mostly AA unit before going infestors. But even then the Infestor shouldn't play an AA role and really should only focus on fungaling banelings to keep the hydra's alive if the muta/ling/bane decides to engage the army. Which usually doesn't happen as the muta/ling/bane player should have banes coming in from multiple sides (at least 2) forcing as many fungals as possible. (at least 4) which will pretty much be most of the Infestor's energy. And if this fight happens early enough during the push out then there is no way they are going to be able to stop another round. Easily allowing the zerg to overwhelm the ground based army. Its really because of these points that the meta game will stay muta vs muta but whoever is losing will throw up 10 spores to have a HUGE defenders advantage that will force the game will go into a super long boring game as neither player will be able to bust the other. BUT this might be a spot that would allow/force one player to get a few bls or some other tech than mutas, but yaaaaaaaaaaaay bl vs bl. Because we all want that right? So yeah this is a stupid buff that really shouldnt change anything UNLESS people are thickheaded enough to think it will really change the issue between ground army vs a muta player. Ever since i heard the initial buff to spore crawlers i thought this and i know i'm not the only one. Go watch most of the recent shows. I know Suppy pretty much talked about the buff as a bad buff and i would be surprised if more than a few top zergs actually thought it was good and was going to change anything. | ||
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Kim Hyuna
Korea (South)264 Posts
On May 16 2013 17:10 UltiBahamut wrote: BUT with the Infested Terrans in their current state of no longer receiving upgrades advantages (which was a stupid nerf that really has made infestor into such a crappy unit that it rarely sees use in any game.) Please, no more such rubbish bad design where free units get upgrades automatically. We already have locust free units abuse and not WOL infestor crap where infested marines gets free upgrades from it. If you recalled how infestor FG and infested marines were abused during WOL days. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 16 2013 17:09 Kim Hyuna wrote: I lol'd at this. Learn to spine it up. How many times where Zerg spine it up during base race and win? How many times where Zerg tech switch from hydra/roaches into mass mutas and win? You should see how TLO spam locust efficiency and win him games easily. Protoss required at least 3 base to get deathball (i'm taking about ground +3 and air +3) up. By containing him from getting out and getting 3rd easily win you the game UNLESS you screwed it up badly. I lol'd at this. At least learn to pick examples that support you. He does it of two base (in TvP) and often stays on two base. And even if he builds a third, he does not drone it up heavily. I don't know where you call this mass expanding... He plays it exactly like I'm saying. | ||
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UltiBahamut
United States102 Posts
On May 16 2013 17:15 Kim Hyuna wrote: Please, no more such rubbish bad design where free units get upgrades automatically. We already have locust free units abuse and not WOL infestor crap where infested marines gets free upgrades from it. If you recalled how infestor FG and infested marines were abused during WOL days. I do. i've been zerg since about a month after the original beta. But Fungal has been nerfed, it doesn't destroy armored units like it use to and requires at least some form of control to be able to land them anyways now. I'm not saying buff fungal growth because its good where it is at overall imo. Personally i would prefer a hydra buff but i severely doubt that that type of buff is going to happen. So the next area that would actually help would be giving them back the upgrades because they can't abuse FG and IT as FG is not what it once was and i don't see a lot of zergs going mass infestors just to throw out infested terrans. I don't see It changing anything in ZvT as bio/mine should be fungaled anyways (if a few IT come out it would help deal with medivacs) and may help lategame vs skyterran which is something many zergs are complaining about and might do the same thing for ZvP as it will give zergs another area that they can use for the late game skytoss+storm armies. But wont do too much in any other area other than to soak up damage mainly. However for ZvZ i see it doing the most as fungal is NEEDED for ground armies to compete vs air and some added Infested terrans that can actually do something might be the actual buff required for it to really be viable more than simply a HUGE all in. And sorry, but a buff like giving infested terrans upgrades is not bad design. a buff like making spore crawlers deal damage specifically to 1 unit (yeah i know corruptor/ovie/bl are bio. but that really isn't going to happen. This buff was made SPECIFICALLY to deal with mtuas) is bad game design. Its sloppy and doesn't look good overall. | ||
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-NegativeZero-
United States2141 Posts
On May 16 2013 11:48 Rabiator wrote: Why do you think BUFFING is the right choice to fix this situation? If you buff the Hydra - even if you only give them "vs biological air" buffs (which is stupid IMO) - you are going to make them much better against every other Zerg air unit (Overlords, Overseers, Corruptors, Broodlords) and disturbe the balance between those ... which might require yet another change ... which will then require another and so on. Hydras have enough dps to kill anything fast enough and the real problem is that "Mutalisks dont stand still" ... i.e. their speed. I'd buff hydras so you can split your hydras to defend multiple locations (leave a few at your main, nat, etc.) and they're still strong enough to defend despite being outnumbered. It's the same principle as bio vs mech - fighting mobility with good positioning, a battle of planning where to defend vs. finding gaps in that defense. With buffed spores, you just spam spores in your base and then move out with your entire army. With buffed hydras, you have to decide exactly how many hydras to leave behind and where to put them to cover the most area most easily. To be fair, if it was completely up to me I wouldn't do a straight buff on the hydra so much as a complete redesign, moving it closer to its BW form where it costs 75/25 - the increased overall DPS would be compensated by its increased vulnerability to AoE damage. | ||
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UltiBahamut
United States102 Posts
On May 16 2013 17:56 -NegativeZero- wrote: I'd buff hydras so you can split your hydras to defend multiple locations (leave a few at your main, nat, etc.) and they're still strong enough to defend despite being outnumbered. It's the same principle as bio vs mech - fighting mobility with good positioning, a battle of planning where to defend vs. finding gaps in that defense. With buffed spores, you just spam spores in your base and then move out with your entire army. With buffed hydras, you have to decide exactly how many hydras to leave behind and where to put them to cover the most area most easily. To be fair, if it was completely up to me I wouldn't do a straight buff on the hydra so much as a complete redesign, moving it closer to its BW form where it costs 75/25 - the increased overall DPS would be compensated by its increased vulnerability to AoE damage. I agree with you completely. i would love to see hydra's buffed, however i think the 75/25 would require it do deal less damage and since it is a lair unit it needs to be at LEAST its current dps. but i would LOVE to see zerg actually have a 1 supply unit. Its the whole reason imo that zerg doesn't feel zergy to most people. (Lings are half a supply in my books lol) but with roaches being too powerful as a 1 supply unit it would have to be the hydralisk! however i think that even with the current cost and dmg output of the hydra that if they were simply moved to 1 supply it would help a lot in all areas since they still die so quickly (Hydras are the embodiment of glass cannons lol), making it so their numbers are what will help them beat through the baneling splash or tank or even the psi storm. Even allow roach/hydra/infestor to be able to overwhelm a pure MMM force in the late game, it would be inefficient but it would be zerglike BUT like i said in my earlier post i don't see blizzard buffing they hydra at all, which is why i think the IT should be the focus. But even that is an awkward spell with what people use the infestor for in ZvZ. | ||
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Rollora
2450 Posts
On May 16 2013 11:25 sibs wrote: I don't think TvZ is going to go trough any major changes unless something gets changed, it's pretty stable how it's played right now. Honestly the matchup might be actually balanced once you get to the skill level of the very best zergs(I'm talking Life/Roro/Soulkey skill), I don't think Zerg is going to beat terran by meta-gaming, there isn't much to meta-game vs biomine, it's good vs whatever zerg does. That being said, the amount of terrans with ridiculous win ratios at TvZ at master's is rather silly. could be you're right and it was just an assumption of my side ofc I can't know anything for sure. TvZ really seems figured out more than other matchups. You mention the absolute Top Zerg and you are right, against the top T (Taeja, Innovation, Flash) there should be 50% Winrate and I have no data that proves it is or isn't that way but it SHOULD be that way, maybe the 7 additional % come from not so well playing T? Or maybe the 57% will go more into the 50% direction. As stated before I have no problem with patching some things, as long as nothing gets patched to infinity. And I big wish is that some mechanics get changed for the 2nd addon. For instance that if one race has the perfect composition (like in flash vs parting on Daybreak) it shouldnt be impossible to win for the Terran, especially when the terran is in front the whole game. Or some changes to Zerg Larva mechanic that could prevent the Zerg from mass tech switch which is so hard to deal with for other races that cannot rebuild a complete other type of an army so fast. But that may stay a wet dream as Blizzard surely won't make that huge changes to the game after such a stable state | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On May 16 2013 17:56 -NegativeZero- wrote: I'd buff hydras so you can split your hydras to defend multiple locations (leave a few at your main, nat, etc.) and they're still strong enough to defend despite being outnumbered. It's the same principle as bio vs mech - fighting mobility with good positioning, a battle of planning where to defend vs. finding gaps in that defense. With buffed spores, you just spam spores in your base and then move out with your entire army. With buffed hydras, you have to decide exactly how many hydras to leave behind and where to put them to cover the most area most easily. To be fair, if it was completely up to me I wouldn't do a straight buff on the hydra so much as a complete redesign, moving it closer to its BW form where it costs 75/25 - the increased overall DPS would be compensated by its increased vulnerability to AoE damage. You didnt answer my question ... because your buffed Hydras will affect the balance between them and other units as well (depending on the type of buffing - vs bio air, vs air, vs all ?? - ... which you didnt say). It is a stupid concept in any case and the right way is to slow down the Mutalisks by a ton ... to maybe 3.5 (from 4) ... and have them rely on the regeneration alone as a survival asset. Once that is done you can defend anything much easier with the current Hydras due to superior range and dps. Nerfing Mutas is the easiest way to do it ... and buffing Hydras against everything is the absolute worst one (with the partial buffing only a tiny bit better). You really want a 4+1 range Hydra instead of a 5+1 one? How does a "BW-ish" Hydra become more vulnerable to AoE? The reduced range makes it more vulnerable (and kinda useless) against anything and totally defeats the point of the Roach because their ranges are too similar then and using both would be too complicated. | ||
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
On May 16 2013 18:08 UltiBahamut wrote: I agree with you completely. i would love to see hydra's buffed, however i think the 75/25 would require it do deal less damage and since it is a lair unit it needs to be at LEAST its current dps. but i would LOVE to see zerg actually have a 1 supply unit. Its the whole reason imo that zerg doesn't feel zergy to most people. (Lings are half a supply in my books lol) but with roaches being too powerful as a 1 supply unit it would have to be the hydralisk! however i think that even with the current cost and dmg output of the hydra that if they were simply moved to 1 supply it would help a lot in all areas since they still die so quickly (Hydras are the embodiment of glass cannons lol), making it so their numbers are what will help them beat through the baneling splash or tank or even the psi storm. Even allow roach/hydra/infestor to be able to overwhelm a pure MMM force in the late game, it would be inefficient but it would be zerglike BUT like i said in my earlier post i don't see blizzard buffing they hydra at all, which is why i think the IT should be the focus. But even that is an awkward spell with what people use the infestor for in ZvZ. lol buff Hydra AtA vs. bio | ||
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UltiBahamut
United States102 Posts
On May 16 2013 23:58 Targe wrote: lol buff Hydra AtA vs. bio lol. for the last month i've been working hard to get Roach/hydra/infestor to work and it actually works really well against most compositions of terrans as long as you play it correctly. But it gets absolutely crushed bypure bio, essentially marauder heavy compositions with a lot of medivacts (like 16+). Any type of buff for the hydra's will directly affect this MU which is why i say it most likely wont happen because blizzard is really not a fan of the hydra since it was a big unit in bw lol. | ||
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sweetbabyjesus
Denmark168 Posts
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"minor" )
