From the Blizzard blog. Making a new thread to restart the discussion since the discussed balance change is now live, and to keep it to this and not the oracle changes or whatever.
Heart of the Swarm Balance Update – May 13, 2013
A little over a week ago, we requested your help in testing a few proposed balance tweaks for StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm by playing with each change on our new Balance Test Map. After reviewing your thoughts, gathering pro player feedback, examining ladder stats, and watching lots of tournament matches, we're ready to move forward with a balance update.
Today, we’ll be implementing the following balance change for StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm multiplayer:
Zerg
Spore Crawler damage increased from 15 + 15 vs. biological to 15 + 30 vs. biological If you'd like to read more on the reasoning behind this change, feel free to check out David Kim's recent forum post, in which he provided his team's thoughts on StarCraft II balance after reviewing test map results and feedback.
As always, thank you for play testing the changes we proposed with the most recent Balance Test Map. The extensive testing and quality of feedback you've provided have allowed us to make this call, and we look forward to sharing more of our thoughts on StarCraft II balance with you in the future.
I think hellbat was an obvious nerf that Blizzard omitted. There's no question it will be nerfed at some point. Apart from that it's probably good that they're waiting it out.
But I give it 6 months before the novelty value of HotS dies off and people start to get really really tired of camp fests again (especially ZvP).
There's a level of tolerance now that won't be there towards the second half of HotS life cycle. ZvZ change is positive.
My only concern is that it will end up in a three base turtle into mass muta and just one shot the spores so doesnt metter how much damage they do if they never fire.
Separately i do think this will allow for enough defense to not die to mutas instantly and maybe move into hydra infestor? Or even turtle very hard to super fast ultras?
On May 14 2013 09:34 heyoka wrote: I'm down for anything that increases the number of viable strategies so if it makes gameplay more diverse, then good job.
Just letting you know, that the link you provided in the closed thread, only leads back to itself, instead of this thread.
On May 14 2013 09:34 heyoka wrote: I'm down for anything that increases the number of viable strategies so if it makes gameplay more diverse, then good job.
Just letting you know, that the link you provided in the closed thread, only leads back to itself, instead of this thread.
I don't think static defense was the answer people needed to muta's :p I would have liked to see some sort of hydra anti air buff or even a corrupter change, but I guess they don't want to touch the non mirror matchups
On May 14 2013 09:34 heyoka wrote: I'm down for anything that increases the number of viable strategies so if it makes gameplay more diverse, then good job.
So you cool if Blizzard added 50 new units to each race? :p
More and more zergs are starting to develop ways to get past the muta problem... I really expect ZvZ in a years time to be a massive swarm host+hydra fest.
On May 14 2013 09:36 Siwelcela wrote: My only concern is that it will end up in a three base turtle into mass muta and just one shot the spores so doesnt metter how much damage they do if they never fire.
Separately i do think this will allow for enough defense to not die to mutas instantly and maybe move into hydra infestor? Or even turtle very hard to super fast ultras?
Well until they get 3 base Muta, they will not be able to harass you with the new Spore Crawlers. That will give you time to build up your army of Infestors/Hydras.
On May 14 2013 09:34 heyoka wrote: I'm down for anything that increases the number of viable strategies so if it makes gameplay more diverse, then good job.
Hehe until zvz turns into mass infestor/swarmhost/broodlord battles then you might think differently .
I would like to see an overall damage buff to spore to a flat 45 damage vs all since Zerg has no viable Anti-Air late game vs Terran or Toss... Hydras die to easy and Curropters just arent stronk enuf to deal with carriers/Tempest or Ravens. or maybe a Range increase instead of a damage increase. And Hellbats... But this is still "New" Game so i think the slow approach is good for now... Next month they need to actually start looking at Terran's Hellbats, SpeedVac and Widowmine... I hope. And maybe a slight decrease in the DPS of Locus of the SH.
On May 14 2013 09:39 Dr.Sin wrote: The patch isn't a solution to how ZVZ is still an awful volatile match up and I don't see people radically altering how they play as a result.
Yes, because a patch is only a solution if it
(1) makes a matchup radically different from what it always has been (zvz volatile, that is)
and
(2) the opponents of Dr.Sin change their behaviour in the first 24 hours after release.
I mean - Hydralisk speed research upgrade was changed to +0.5625 from +1.125 when they moved it from hive to lair - wouldn't that massively increase the incentive to use hydralisks? I'm sure if you were to give them what was one of the most anticipated pre-beta changes, and/or give them one or both of their upgrades without needing research, mutalisk would look a LOT less attractive
On May 14 2013 09:52 Cyro wrote: Why dont they unnerf hydralisks?
I mean - Hydralisk speed research upgrade was changed to +0.5625 from +1.125 when they moved it from hive to lair - wouldn't that massively increase the incentive to use hydralisks? I'm sure if you were to give them what was one of the most anticipated pre-beta changes, and/or give them one or both of their upgrades without needing research, mutalisk would look a LOT less attractive
Because they are looking to fix ZvZ and your changes would greatly affect other match-ups as well, especially ZvP.
On May 14 2013 09:43 Kowai01 wrote: I would like to see an overall damage buff to spore to a flat 45 damage vs all since Zerg has no viable Anti-Air late game vs Terran or Toss... Hydras die to easy and Curropters just arent stronk enuf to deal with carriers/Tempest or Ravens. or maybe a Range increase instead of a damage increase.
great, now zvz will change a little, you will can go roach, hydra much more easily if the spore buff, you will even need mutas, cuz in a fight at your base hydras/roach just destroy any ling/muta fight
On May 14 2013 10:01 Zenbrez wrote: I've gotta say - this hasn't changed my behaviour in the matchup so far. It's not like I used to fight near spores anyway, so now I still don't.
lol. That's very true. I dont like to fly over spores either. So can people spore crawler rush an overlord? lol
When were mutas ever in range of spores to begin with? Every ZvZ I see ends with 100 lings and 30 mutas in the middle of the map with someone coming out ahead by like 10 mutas each time.
On May 14 2013 10:03 teddyoojo wrote: blizzard is just stupid to not address hellbats and the zvp swarmhost problem. i had way more fun playing wol than hots already
I'm going to have to say that Blizzard knows what they're doing.
On May 14 2013 09:34 LaLuSh wrote: I think hellbat was an obvious nerf that Blizzard omitted. There's no question it will be nerfed at some point. Apart from that it's probably good that they're waiting it out.
But I give it 6 months before the novelty value of HotS dies off and people start to get really really tired of camp fests again (especially ZvP).
There's a level of tolerance now that won't be there towards the second half of HotS life cycle. ZvZ change is positive.
Hellbats will be undoubtedly nerfed. I think it's pretty obvious to everyone aside from some select delusional Terran players that their dps and cost efficiency in their current state is imbalanced. In classic Blizzard fashion, they will be nerfed very very late, like the infestor, but hopefully not THAT late. Blizzard's balance team baffles me sometimes. They rarely if ever attempt to do small tweaks on units, and instead often put in huge number adjustments that either go through, or get reverted completely, without ever trying something in between. They had all beta to fix things, but they ended up just pushing a massive patch of drastic balance changes later on in the beta, and just went live with a lot of them for the most part.
I think not making a more conscious effort to more tightly fine-tune units in the beta is always a big mistake. You can make a drastic change in the beta and not get that much of an uproar for it, but leaving decently large and necessary balance fixes until later in release causes massive balance whine, and is a real obstacle in the correct balancing of this game.
Careful not to have your overlords spewing creep around the map in ZvZ; you'll have a spore crawler rooting in your creep killing your overlord quicker than ever lol.
i don't understand how this solves the issues of zvz. sure, maybe the zerg no longer dies immediately when they are down ~10 mutas, but they still lose eventually. would rather see a regen or acceleration nerf, tbh. hopefully i'm wrong and this will change the matchup, though ?
On May 14 2013 10:01 Zenbrez wrote: I've gotta say - this hasn't changed my behaviour in the matchup so far. It's not like I used to fight near spores anyway, so now I still don't.
lol. That's very true. I dont like to fly over spores either. So can people spore crawler rush an overlord? lol
This will probably open up some low level cheese ideas. I'm gonna make sure my overlords aren't over creep lol.
i understand the need for a nerf to spores but i think that there could be a better solution. After all, the problem is the map control + the DPS. Getting two bases when you are going ground is near impossible, spore change won't help that much im afraid.
On May 14 2013 10:01 Zenbrez wrote: I've gotta say - this hasn't changed my behaviour in the matchup so far. It's not like I used to fight near spores anyway, so now I still don't.
The idea isn't that it drastically changes the match-up in one direction or another. The idea is that by having a really strong spore vs mutalisk it opens up the possibility of infestor play since you will have better defense vs mutas.
This tiny change in theory means that if both players are playing muta vs muta, it will become possible for infestors, which in turn allows for hydra/roach/ling ground play, which makes the match-up inch towards not being only muta vs muta.
They wanted to avoid massive changes to any other core units that would adversely affect the other match-ups, such as messing with hydras or infestors.
It's a good small step towards diversifyng ZvZ more.
The worst change ever to zvz..... thats an overkill dk, nobody will go mutas while or infestors since they dont have bonus against armored... itll be roach hydra vs roach hydra=amove vs amove. fixing the physics for mutas was the only way, but well, that requires some work which blizzard is obviously not a fan of.
What on earth is this... did I miss april fools day or something? How is this even remotely an urgent balance issue?
Didn't David Kim say it was unanimously and blatantly agreed upon by the entire balance team that WM is too strong? Also, Afterburners are probably the most agreed thing in hots that needs to be nerfed. TvT looks so stupid when all they do is camp their mineral lines and send out hellbat/rine/wm drops on each others' mineral lines in hopes of wiping out half the scvs.
Yo blizzard, I'd rather have overlords have a land-mode like vikings where overlords turn into giant busses that tank damage like a moving bunker... THAT's preferable over this spore thing...
Seems like it's a bit too much damage to me, but I agree that a change to ZvZ was necessary. Why didn't they just make gradual changes in the right direction though..?
I won't attack a base until I mass up mutas and can take out spore in one shot.
ZvZ feels like it is a tower defense game. I have to build spores (sometimes two around hte spire) in order to protect my base . The increase in damage to spores will encourage me to do so even more.
Though, I think this is a good move as it might give us options to open up with infestors, hydras instead of pure mutas.
On May 14 2013 10:10 Garoodah wrote: I dont see this change being a large impact honestly.
52 DPS is no joke. Why do you think that? If you mean from the perspective of the game in general then this is primarily aimed at just ZvZ as the game is balanced according to statistics at all levels of play despite the cries of some dedicated whiners who aren't used to having to micro. As far as ZvZ changing I think smartly placed spores can make Mutalisks very cost inefficient now.
I enjoy a lot playing ling muta on ZvZ. Such a micro intensive army, opposite from the boring roach infestor of WoL. Hope that doesn't make muta inviable.
Still think that hellbat drop, widow mines and oracles need a fix. 1 unit alone shouldn't have the power to be a game changer as those ones do.
On May 14 2013 10:01 Zenbrez wrote: I've gotta say - this hasn't changed my behaviour in the matchup so far. It's not like I used to fight near spores anyway, so now I still don't.
The idea isn't that it drastically changes the match-up in one direction or another. The idea is that by having a really strong spore vs mutalisk it opens up the possibility of infestor play since you will have better defense vs mutas.
This tiny change in theory means that if both players are playing muta vs muta, it will become possible for infestors, which in turn allows for hydra/roach/ling ground play, which makes the match-up inch towards not being only muta vs muta.
They wanted to avoid massive changes to any other core units that would adversely affect the other match-ups, such as messing with hydras or infestors.
It's a good small step towards diversifyng ZvZ more.
Do you really think a small buff to Hydras would make the other matchups imbalanced. Hydra/Roach is useless vs Terran and still pretty bad vs Protoss.
You said yourself Zerg struggles vs Protoss air lategame. A small Hydra buff would certainly help solve the Muta problem and the Protoss air problem as well as make more compositions viable in ZvT.
IDK, sounds like a win/win/win to me.
Hydras are actually decent in ZvP, even a small buff to their DPS could push them over the edge of OP. Some people have suggested buffs to their AA attack only but then that might hurt Collossi too much. There is no easy answer for fixing Hydras, sadly. Perhaps a slight speed buff but idk.
As for the Spore changes, I agree with Blade that this will most likely encourage mass SH in ZvZ which could be awful. I also feel this change may not help that much vs Mutas. Probably the biggest advantage Mutas give a player is map control and considering the fact that Spores can only burrow on creep I'm not sure how effective this change will be at preventing Mutas from getting that map control and, most importantly, denying bases. If you don't want to build Mutas you will have to find a good way to get creep to your next expo (Ovies won't work since Mutas will just camp the expo and kill them) and get the Spores down. An extra Queen or two could work but I don't see what would stop the Muta player from just expanding x2 for every expo the non-Muta player takes. I am interested to see what strategies people come up with tho.
Ugh should had just given the +Bio dmg modifier to Hydras.
And where the fuck are the Hellbat Nerfs? A cheap mineral sink unit that does AoE, Can be healed and is tankey. They need to fire the person who designed the Corrupter, Roach and the Hellbat
On May 14 2013 09:34 heyoka wrote: I'm down for anything that increases the number of viable strategies so if it makes gameplay more diverse, then good job.
Anything at all that makes ling/bbling into muta not 100% likely to happen, it is the most annoying part of playing on the ladder right now.
On May 14 2013 09:46 hitpoint wrote: Nothing wrong with muta vs muta imo. It's better than anything we've had in the past. Don't like the change.
Muta vs muta is very luck-based..especially since its hard to count the number of clumped up mutas and you cant really /predict muta splash as easily as ucan with tank splash
ling vs ling every game would also make it luck-based
On May 14 2013 09:46 hitpoint wrote: Nothing wrong with muta vs muta imo. It's better than anything we've had in the past. Don't like the change.
Muta vs muta is very luck-based..especially since its hard to count the number of clumped up mutas and you cant really /predict muta splash as easily as ucan with tank splash
ling vs ling every game would also make it luck-based
ZvZ needs to stay away from lings or mutas imo.
I wouldn't call it luck based more so it's very very unforgiving.
Absolutely absurd and unimaginative change. Can you imagine in Broodwar if Blizzard felt terran mech was too strong against protoss, they decided to make zealots do additional damage to siege tanks? The whole idea of "Let's have this one unit do more damage to one specific unit that we think is OP in this one matchup" reeks of bad design. Buffing static D is also likely to make muta v muta matches simply more defensively oriented (read: boring). Muta -> infestor tech switches are also something that Blizz should be wary of, because so much relies on luck (can you tell when your opponent is tech switching and take advantage, or not realize and lose the game because of 1 fungal? A lot of it comes down to luck and guesswork) but they seem to be encouraging it.
Buff hydra speed on creep instead IMO. Makes roach/hydra viable against terran, doesn't affect protoss much, helps ZvZ, isn't a gimmicky change.
Once again, this is yet another patch that tries to balance the game by making changes around edge cases. This is not good design and demonstrates a lack of global cohesiveness to the system.
On May 14 2013 12:18 wangstra wrote: Once again, this is yet another patch that tries to balance the game by making changes around edge cases. This is not good design and demonstrates a lack of global cohesiveness to the system.
What, instead of simply patch edge cases (balance bugs if you will), they should try to alter the core system and risk breaking other parts? No thanks, not when round of 8 GSL Code S is on our doorstep.
And just wait, if this doesn't solve the problem, lets double the bonus of spores vs biological yet again!. The niche change to the sporecrawler is just ridiculous, and doesn't solve the core problem of why ZvZ is always muta vs muta. Mutalisks need a regen nerf, plain and simple.
On May 14 2013 11:43 maniac1122 wrote: tooootally going to cheese/troll people by making and encampment of swarmhosts/spores/queens outside their base now!! Thanks David Kim
but seriously now i can do it against all 3 races its such a fun strat
u can do it in zvp zvt because the opponents are too bad, aren't they? how this balance patch could make this strat work against terran and toss ? lol
On May 14 2013 12:18 wangstra wrote: Once again, this is yet another patch that tries to balance the game by making changes around edge cases. This is not good design and demonstrates a lack of global cohesiveness to the system.
What, instead of simply patch edge cases (balance bugs if you will), they should try to alter the core system and risk breaking other parts? No thanks, not when round of 8 GSL Code S is on our doorstep.
By edge case, I don't mean "balance bugs". I mean making minor alterations to the system that don''t address the main processes that create the imbalances in the first place. These processes often end up surfacing a new edge case down the line that in the future that will most likely again be "fixed" in the same manner.
That's a sign of @#$! poor design.
Similar examples to name a couple include infested terrans and hellbats.
On May 14 2013 11:53 glad. wrote: Absolutely absurd and unimaginative change. Can you imagine in Broodwar if Blizzard felt terran mech was too strong against protoss, they decided to make zealots do additional damage to siege tanks? The whole idea of "Let's have this one unit do more damage to one specific unit that we think is OP in this one matchup" reeks of bad design. Buffing static D is also likely to make muta v muta matches simply more defensively oriented (read: boring). Muta -> infestor tech switches are also something that Blizz should be wary of, because so much relies on luck (can you tell when your opponent is tech switching and take advantage, or not realize and lose the game because of 1 fungal? A lot of it comes down to luck and guesswork) but they seem to be encouraging it.
Buff hydra speed on creep instead IMO. Makes roach/hydra viable against terran, doesn't affect protoss much, helps ZvZ, isn't a gimmicky change.
Hmm it's not really the same as your analogy because they are at least buffing spore damage to a certain type (bio) but perhaps they could have been more imaginative, something like an added damage over time or small area of effect.
I generally dislike changes that isolate a particular matchup [since the whole idea of starcraft is same units and abilities across all matchups], but it seems the simplest fix to the muta wars in zvz.
On May 14 2013 11:43 maniac1122 wrote: tooootally going to cheese/troll people by making and encampment of swarmhosts/spores/queens outside their base now!! Thanks David Kim
but seriously now i can do it against all 3 races its such a fun strat
You might enjoy this game. http://drop.sc/334440. This was me trying this strategy for the first time a few weeks ago.
I am personally not a fan of this change because it is awkward and clumsy. I also think it won't stop muta ling which is too good at denying thirds before spores can be set up on some maps at least.
Hey? Why don't we give hatcheries a nexus core? Haha. In all seriousness though, for those who believe an increase in hydralisk damage against air bio is a better decision, let me tell you why you're wrong. Firstly, only bronzes go hydralisks against mutas. Mutalisks dont engage fights with hydralisks simply because they die. People use mutalisks against hydralisks primarily to keep them from moving out. They never engage unless there is only a few lone hydralisk. Also, hydralisks are only good against mutalisks when there are enough of them. Unfortunately, when someone masses hydras, the opponent just has to make a few banes and boom, all hydras are dead. Haha.
I think +air damage on hydras would be nice. Would even help ZvP if skytoss is as big of an issue as it was a few months ago (havent played SC in a while so im rusty on the meta).
On May 14 2013 09:43 Kowai01 wrote: I would like to see an overall damage buff to spore to a flat 45 damage vs all since Zerg has no viable Anti-Air late game vs Terran or Toss... Hydras die to easy and Curropters just arent stronk enuf to deal with carriers/Tempest or Ravens. or maybe a Range increase instead of a damage increase. And Hellbats... But this is still "New" Game so i think the slow approach is good for now... Next month they need to actually start looking at Terran's Hellbats, SpeedVac and Widowmine... I hope. And maybe a slight decrease in the DPS of Locus of the SH.
Please think before u post. 45 dmg at the rate of speed the spore is attacking could literally wipe out a medvac even with speed boost. Absolutely ridiculous. 52 dps against 150 health medivac. Right.... cuz thats fair.
On May 14 2013 11:53 glad. wrote: Absolutely absurd and unimaginative change. Can you imagine in Broodwar if Blizzard felt terran mech was too strong against protoss, they decided to make zealots do additional damage to siege tanks? The whole idea of "Let's have this one unit do more damage to one specific unit that we think is OP in this one matchup" reeks of bad design. Buffing static D is also likely to make muta v muta matches simply more defensively oriented (read: boring). Muta -> infestor tech switches are also something that Blizz should be wary of, because so much relies on luck (can you tell when your opponent is tech switching and take advantage, or not realize and lose the game because of 1 fungal? A lot of it comes down to luck and guesswork) but they seem to be encouraging it.
Buff hydra speed on creep instead IMO. Makes roach/hydra viable against terran, doesn't affect protoss much, helps ZvZ, isn't a gimmicky change.
If by one particular unit you mean all Zerg air then yes. Corrupters are a unit designed only to do damage to air units. Broodlords are a unit designed only to do damage to ground units. Irradiate was a spell specifically designed to hurt bio units. And wtf was infestations set of targets?
On May 14 2013 14:17 Topdoller wrote: A very poor patch that's failed to address the real issue since WoL was released. Slow map push with spore crawlers any one supported by Queens???
Edit: Oh you mean the doom Zerg cloud with buildings underneath to avoid elimination? It's not like it happens all the time...
On May 14 2013 14:17 Topdoller wrote: A very poor patch that's failed to address the real issue since WoL was released. Slow map push with spore crawlers any one supported by Queens???
Meh, blizzard identified a legitimate problem, but i don't know if this is the best change. Seems like it encourages really turtley gameplay if your going for something besides mutas, which is kinda lame. I could be wrong though, and i would prefer buffing over nerfing, so that everyone gets nuff op units.
I think it is not that good of an idea for the simple reason that "vs biological" damage on the Spore Crawler affects more than just Mutalisks (which are the problem). Right now no one has "used it" against other enemy Zerg units, but it also deters Overseers who would contaminate buildings to stop research or production.
A much wiser choice would have been a nerf to the Mutalisk ...
On May 14 2013 14:23 xAdra wrote: Anyone who says buffing hydras would not impact ZvP is joking. Hydras are so nonsensically strong against gateway units already.
Yeah, but that is why there are higher tech units from the robotics facility and stargate.
On May 14 2013 14:23 xAdra wrote: Anyone who says buffing hydras would not impact ZvP is joking. Hydras are so nonsensically strong against gateway units already.
Other way around. Gateway units are so terrible against everything else. (Well stalkers anyway).
On May 14 2013 11:22 SOWxDISCORD wrote: I enjoy a lot playing ling muta on ZvZ. Such a micro intensive army, opposite from the boring roach infestor of WoL. Hope that doesn't make muta inviable.
Still think that hellbat drop, widow mines and oracles need a fix. 1 unit alone shouldn't have the power to be a game changer as those ones do.
if you die to one oracle thats your fault. and hellbat drops are 3 units. Widow mines aren't that op, and you will see good zergs sending in a few lings to detonate them and dealing splash dmg in the process.
I really think they should've just given spores a little splash radius instead of a buff to bio damage.
In ZvZ, offensive mutas would need to be magic boxed so the defensive mutas would have the advantage of being able to target fire.
Otherwise, it would not effect overlords / overseer scouting and contaminating (outside of the very rare scenario you have a flock of them bunched up).
In ZvT, it has no real effect because usually it's just 1 or 2 medivacs. I guess you just have to be a little careful when doom dropping.
In ZvP, it has a minimal effect on phoenixes, and in airtoss scenarios, they have plenty of options to siege down spore crawlers.
On May 14 2013 14:23 xAdra wrote: Anyone who says buffing hydras would not impact ZvP is joking. Hydras are so nonsensically strong against gateway units already.
pure hydra loses to blink stalker and chargelots in equal costs (unlike units that are actually really good vs gateway units like marines or roaches)
On May 14 2013 11:37 Partha wrote: Ugh should had just given the +Bio dmg modifier to Hydras.
And where the fuck are the Hellbat Nerfs? A cheap mineral sink unit that does AoE, Can be healed and is tankey. They need to fire the person who designed the Corrupter, Roach and the Hellbat
I hope, for the love of of God, that your problem with the roach has nothing what so ever to do with it being OP.
On May 14 2013 15:37 pseudocalm wrote: TY BLIZZARD this is clutch balance. Get the damn muta clouds out of zvz
You won't be saying this if zvz ever gets to the point where muta suck and going swarmhost/infestor/broodlord + mass spine being standard .
Well at least that is more then 1 unit The problem with current zvz is that that it is all about that 1 unit and nothing can stop it. In BW you at least had the scourge but what in sc2? Corrupters? Those things are a joke since they won't ever catch the muta's.
On May 14 2013 09:43 Kowai01 wrote: I would like to see an overall damage buff to spore to a flat 45 damage vs all since Zerg has no viable Anti-Air late game vs Terran or Toss... Hydras die to easy and Curropters just arent stronk enuf to deal with carriers/Tempest or Ravens. or maybe a Range increase instead of a damage increase. And Hellbats... But this is still "New" Game so i think the slow approach is good for now... Next month they need to actually start looking at Terran's Hellbats, SpeedVac and Widowmine... I hope. And maybe a slight decrease in the DPS of Locus of the SH.
On May 14 2013 15:37 pseudocalm wrote: TY BLIZZARD this is clutch balance. Get the damn muta clouds out of zvz
You won't be saying this if zvz ever gets to the point where muta suck and going swarmhost/infestor/broodlord + mass spine being standard .
aren't vipers amazing against that? like, roach/hydra/swarm host/viper... if he tries to transition, you just pull and laugh
Uh probably not lol. You can't really abduct swarmhosts because of how far back they will be.
Well, but everything else, right? So broodlords would probably be a bad idea if i have anything to shoot them after pulling. (Spores with 45 dmg :-) ) Infestors would be tricky against vipers as well I guess. And I dont think it's that easy. What if those ling/ultra builds become popular with the new ultra and the infestor sucking against zerglings? Wouldnt that stomp swarmhost play with mobilty in the midgame?
This definetly opens more styles in ZvZ since few spores will give you enough time to get hydra/infestor or just do some kind of timing pushes with maybe roach/hydra
Stop whining about hellbats! Dont know if the spore chance is the best option but it will certainly increase the potential to avoid mass muta and go for another build. Mass muta will still own if not prepared for it, but at least you can now build up a counter without getting your drones, queens, hatch and even spores killed by a group of 6-8 muta. If your opponent has already got a muta deathball before you have a good hydra infestor queen composition he just outplayed you or you need to work on your macro, but at least now zerg have a chance.
On May 14 2013 16:40 SeriousLus wrote: classic Blizzard - never change something back but keep patching stuff^^
So instacast fungal would have been the way to go for you?
Classic stupid counterargument which totally ignores the post itself ... no matter how short it is. "Going back" means getting rid of Mutalisk regeneration. At least that is what the last step in "ZvZ buffing" was which made Mutalisks good over a long duration.
The key point is that Blizzard tries to do balance by BUFFING ONLY and seems not to consider nerfing at all (which is always getting a ton of whines on forums), but endlessly buffing will only end in a spiral of ever increasing stats without reaching a stable balance.
On May 14 2013 16:40 SeriousLus wrote: classic Blizzard - never change something back but keep patching stuff^^
So instacast fungal would have been the way to go for you?
Classic stupid counterargument which totally ignores the post itself ... no matter how short it is. "Going back" means getting rid of Mutalisk regeneration.
and how do you know what he means? I was merely asking a question what he thinks would be going back for him and as instacast fungal was probably the biggest reason which kept mutas at bay in WoL it would be the logic answer.
"Going back" means getting rid of Mutalisk regeneration.
I actually think, this would solve the whole ZvZ and the "phoenix only against mutas" PvZ problem for sure.
yeah. It would probably be good for ZvZ and doable for PvZ (though absolutly not necessary). It would just make mutas a joke in TvZ but without mutas drops are a joke in TvZ and one of the last tools to punish Terran greed in the midgame would be a goner as well...
So they nerf infestors, which affects all matchups, buff the muta for harassment potential, then buff spores because of the new muta and the shittier infestor.
I get that the goal is to make changes that affect other matchups the least, but this is kind of pointless. Just makes the matchup more boring and even longer since great muta play in the midgame can no longer dictate the pace of the game. The spore change just lowers the skill ceiling by guaranteeing safety against fast mutas. So muta is buffed as a harassment unit against T and P, but when it comes to Z, it's too strong. I can think of many more harassments from T and P that are stronger, techs faster, and is more efficient for 100/100 per unit. Spores were fine the way they were. The changes still won't discourage muta play, because mutas have never been amazing until critical mass anyway. Now, we're just going to see people babying mutas until critical mass and whoever has the better upgrades and muta count during the final engagement wins. The question is, will it open up the hydra route? I seriously doubt it. It takes more than extra dps spores to make muta ling bane ineffective.
Wow sometimes i belive the TL forum consists only of 3on3 and gold league 1on1 Players. Hellbats are easy to deal with for any race besides maybe Protoss pre storm. They have 2 range -_- start microing your shit. If you fear the game might not be balanced its probably your own incompetence that makes units look imba.
I think that's a pretty neat change, though I'm not sure that's the most interesting overall...
I mean, it's clearly aimed at taking down, or at least seriously hinder the muta play in ZvZ, but it makes me quite anxious of the potential evolution of the match-up.
Someone said something along the line of "ZvZ is volatile, get the lings and the mutas out of the mu".
Great, it leaves only slow/campy units... I do enjoy a lot these kind of units in ZvZ (Mutas and lings). I do also agree that volatility is pretty bad in a match-up, because it reduces the chances that the better player win (well, the better player always win, but if it's decided by a muta-vs-muta battle that is decided only by the sheer number of mutas, and the pack who shot the first volley, well..., kinda bad...)
Lings and mutas are cool, don't just get them out of the match-up... I didn't enjoy at all roachfestorfests in WoL, I don't want the same thing with a little bit of SH to add camping and sieging, especially to the race that's supposed to swarm enemies with fast units (I do enjoy a lot Ultra play for example, feels righteously zergy, that's some high tier unit that corresponds to the zerg style).
Bleh... I don't know if it's the fact that I'm terran, but only the Terran match-ups feels enjoyable (ZvT is particularly great now from what I witnessed). Oh, and PvP a bit, now that early-mid game see crazy strategies in every directions, though not being expert at the match-up, I don't really know if it's still a bit luck based/coinflip-like as it was sometimes (often ?) in WoL.
I would really like Blizz to remove/rework units such as the SH and the broodlord...
Finally, I'm glad they didn't nerf the hellbat (as they have an history of nerfing quite instantly Terran things that work well), though I feel it'll be necessary at some point. I feel like keeping them beefy and even the bio attribute would be good, but gosh, those terrible damage... (then, I'm quite bad, so I won't suggest changes, I might embarass myself more than anything else...)
On May 14 2013 16:54 scph wrote: I can think of many more harassments from T and P that are stronger, techs faster, and is more efficient for 100/100 per unit.
The problem isnt the harrasment part of muta's, but that ZvZ is completely about which side has more mutas. And can you name any T or P unit which has the harrasment potential of mutas, and aditionally where the entire game revolves arounds which side has more?
Not good at estimating the negative effect on the mind if a there is buff against your strategy, but this should only affect small muta groups. In that stadium you can still do tons with lings, so spores are not an issue for that strategy. Especially since people will try to cut as many spores as possible and gas is the limiting factor anyway. I guess the assumption is that the Infestor transition is easier but that one worked just fine before. The decision was always Mutas as they are easier to execute and they still are. So a 3 instead of a 4 shot won't change much, guess they hope it will tick off players to try out other things, that work better but are just harder to use.
On the other hand I only need 3 spores now instead of 4 to set up traps for mutas. Still for a cost increase on Mutas.
On May 14 2013 16:54 scph wrote: I can think of many more harassments from T and P that are stronger, techs faster, and is more efficient for 100/100 per unit.
The problem isnt the harrasment part of muta's, but that ZvZ is completely about which side has more mutas. And can you name any T or P unit which has the harrasment potential of mutas, and aditionally where the entire game revolves arounds which side has more?
Terran and Toss have similar air units like the Muta, but they are more expensive and either lack the speed or are far more limited in their combat abilities. Funnily enough their limiting factors doesn't matter in the Mirrors. Terran had Viking wars and they fixed that by making one of Terrans AoE units almost useless. (well the other was already made useless before) But yeah now we have puppys that shoot rockets out of holes to make up for that mess up. Can't complain there they are kinda cute. I am rather surprised that with the new range on Phoenix we don't see pure phoenix vs phoenix. But I guess that one is thanks to the cheap DTs. Otherwise Phoenix can beat any toss ground composition with minerals pumped into Zealots/Immortals.
On May 14 2013 16:54 scph wrote: I can think of many more harassments from T and P that are stronger, techs faster, and is more efficient for 100/100 per unit.
The problem isnt the harrasment part of muta's, but that ZvZ is completely about which side has more mutas. And can you name any T or P unit which has the harrasment potential of mutas, and aditionally where the entire game revolves arounds which side has more?
That´s easy: Terran can build 20 Starports with techlabs and then in late game swith to cloaked banshees for ezgg. Same for Protoss. Build 20 Stargates and 10 Robos and then hard-switch tech after every trade.
On May 14 2013 16:54 scph wrote: I can think of many more harassments from T and P that are stronger, techs faster, and is more efficient for 100/100 per unit.
The problem isnt the harrasment part of muta's, but that ZvZ is completely about which side has more mutas. And can you name any T or P unit which has the harrasment potential of mutas, and aditionally where the entire game revolves arounds which side has more?
That´s easy: Terran can build 20 Starports with techlabs and then in late game swith to cloaked banshees for ezgg. Same for Protoss. Build 20 Stargates and 10 Robos and then hard-switch tech after every trade.
On May 14 2013 16:54 scph wrote: I can think of many more harassments from T and P that are stronger, techs faster, and is more efficient for 100/100 per unit.
The problem isnt the harrasment part of muta's, but that ZvZ is completely about which side has more mutas. And can you name any T or P unit which has the harrasment potential of mutas, and aditionally where the entire game revolves arounds which side has more?
Terran and Toss have similar air units like the Muta, but they are more expensive and either lack the speed or are far more limited in their combat abilities. Funnily enough their limiting factors doesn't matter in the Mirrors. Terran had Viking wars and they fixed that by making one of Terrans AoE units almost useless. (well the other was already made useless before) But yeah now we have puppys that shoot rockets out of holes to make up for that mess up. Can't complain there they are kinda cute. I am rather surprised that with the new range on Phoenix we don't see pure phoenix vs phoenix. But I guess that one is thanks to the cheap DTs. Otherwise Phoenix can beat any toss ground composition with minerals pumped into Zealots/Immortals.
Archons/HT are also much better now that mass Colossus is off the table and that makes phoenixes worse. Also they are just straight up worse AtG combat units than mutas and can't attack canons. I think mass phoenix is simply much more volatile in the midgame which prevents those incredible build ups and doesn't do as much damage to the player without mapcontrol who can still just put down a third and a canon and the phoenixes can't do shit about it once the buildings are started.
On May 14 2013 16:54 scph wrote: I can think of many more harassments from T and P that are stronger, techs faster, and is more efficient for 100/100 per unit.
The problem isnt the harrasment part of muta's, but that ZvZ is completely about which side has more mutas. And can you name any T or P unit which has the harrasment potential of mutas, and aditionally where the entire game revolves arounds which side has more?
Terran and Toss have similar air units like the Muta, but they are more expensive and either lack the speed or are far more limited in their combat abilities. Funnily enough their limiting factors doesn't matter in the Mirrors. Terran had Viking wars and they fixed that by making one of Terrans AoE units almost useless. (well the other was already made useless before) But yeah now we have puppys that shoot rockets out of holes to make up for that mess up. Can't complain there they are kinda cute. I am rather surprised that with the new range on Phoenix we don't see pure phoenix vs phoenix. But I guess that one is thanks to the cheap DTs. Otherwise Phoenix can beat any toss ground composition with minerals pumped into Zealots/Immortals.
Viking wars were never really mandatory though, thors keep them at distance, and the only reason for those wars in the first place was (is) purely vision, having air dominance is very useful, but it definately doesn't win you the game, outside getting that air dominance the vikings have pretty much no combat role. And with for example a sensor tower you can simply scan everytime your enemy moves.
But simply because vikings can't shoot down they aren't comparable to mutas. They also are alot slower: Mutas arent so scary for their straight up combat power, but for their speed. So they can simply kill you one unit at a time and then run, which is even better in hots due to their higher speed + regeneration
And well banshees can't shoot air, are also way slower, also don't regenerate, and aditionally you also need to invest way more into production facilities.
Toss has a better start with quite some air units that can shoot up and down, and that regenerate, well at least their shields. But as contender for the muta's role we only have the voidray timewise: The voidray is then also quite strong in PvP currently, but compared to the muta it lacks enormously in the speed department, you cannot just make a bunch of voids and harass with them, since blink stalkers will catch up with them and focus them down. In non-mirror matchups their lack of anti-light damage is the issue.
Finally we have phoenix, who can at least lift their targets, and they have the speed of mutas. However they cannot deal with static defenses, making it already alot harder to kill your opponent one mineral line at a time. And lifting a target really isn't as effective as just shooting them directly when there are many units.
And for the unit composition you mentioned: Archons counter that pretty well.
On May 14 2013 11:53 glad. wrote: Absolutely absurd and unimaginative change. Can you imagine in Broodwar if Blizzard felt terran mech was too strong against protoss, they decided to make zealots do additional damage to siege tanks? The whole idea of "Let's have this one unit do more damage to one specific unit that we think is OP in this one matchup" reeks of bad design. Buffing static D is also likely to make muta v muta matches simply more defensively oriented (read: boring). Muta -> infestor tech switches are also something that Blizz should be wary of, because so much relies on luck (can you tell when your opponent is tech switching and take advantage, or not realize and lose the game because of 1 fungal? A lot of it comes down to luck and guesswork) but they seem to be encouraging it.
Buff hydra speed on creep instead IMO. Makes roach/hydra viable against terran, doesn't affect protoss much, helps ZvZ, isn't a gimmicky change.
Are you a game designer or at least pro gamer, to judge the decision of the developers? Hydra speed on creep is already as fast as a stimmed marine. Can you really foresee how a hydra speed buff would turn out?
On May 14 2013 16:40 SeriousLus wrote: classic Blizzard - never change something back but keep patching stuff^^
So instacast fungal would have been the way to go for you?
Classic stupid counterargument which totally ignores the post itself ... no matter how short it is. "Going back" means getting rid of Mutalisk regeneration.
and how do you know what he means? I was merely asking a question what he thinks would be going back for him and as instacast fungal was probably the biggest reason which kept mutas at bay in WoL it would be the logic answer.
Because it is the logical step to take. They nerfed Infestors and buffed Mutalisks at the same time. Which unit is giving us a hard time now? Mutalisks. Why? Because they are more forgiving to use due to regeneration AND the speed buff.
Taking out the changes which made one unit (too) good really is the LOGICAL CHOICE because it adjusts the power level of that one unit towards the power level of the other units instead of raising another unit to the power level of the too strong one with a bunch of other adjustments being required afterwards.
Obviously I cant know what SeriousLus thought, but I do know your thoughts were wrong and I simply assumed he chose better. If he didnt then both of you are wrong and I have to retract my statement of him choosing better.
On May 14 2013 16:54 scph wrote: So they nerf infestors, which affects all matchups, buff the muta for harassment potential, then buff spores because of the new muta and the shittier infestor.
I get that the goal is to make changes that affect other matchups the least, but this is kind of pointless. Just makes the matchup more boring and even longer since great muta play in the midgame can no longer dictate the pace of the game. The spore change just lowers the skill ceiling by guaranteeing safety against fast mutas. So muta is buffed as a harassment unit against T and P, but when it comes to Z, it's too strong. I can think of many more harassments from T and P that are stronger, techs faster, and is more efficient for 100/100 per unit. Spores were fine the way they were. The changes still won't discourage muta play, because mutas have never been amazing until critical mass anyway. Now, we're just going to see people babying mutas until critical mass and whoever has the better upgrades and muta count during the final engagement wins. The question is, will it open up the hydra route? I seriously doubt it. It takes more than extra dps spores to make muta ling bane ineffective.
Buffing mutas was, at the first place, a stupid and unneeded idea at all. P were suffering from it enough in WoL, now it's even worse. What are they thinking about their balance approach is beyond common sense. Almost all Zv* match-ups now is ...1. whateveropening 2. mass mutas.
Now they buff spores... Why not turrets? Or thors? Or stalkers AA?
Mutas were always a problematic unit with their mobility and fighting power. In SC1, before BW, they made Zerg wildly overpowered, and BW dealt with this by putting in a bunch of hard counters (Valkyries and Corsairs), as well as making a variety of anti-Muta adjustments to other units.
To learn from that experience, the solution would be to give Corrupters a large + biological bonus.
At first, I thought its very hard to balance the game. But more I look at it and the way its going, I think Dayvie (or someone at blizz) has a wrong vision of how it needs to be done.
Couple things particularly: 1. Whenever they talk about balance they mention raw battle.net statistics, which is bad. Lets take an example, say PvT is 60/40, what they gonna do about it? They can't buff terran, cause they mess up TvZ. So they proceed to nerf something about protoss which won't hurt othaer matchups. then gradually, game becomes linear and one dimensional.
2. They try to fuck with meta. Force some strategies, shut down 'unintended' strategies and so on.
fuckton of examples: - instead of fixing reapers or giving zerg other options they just killed strat alltogether. - voidrays got nerfed to oblivion, its just 'another' unit with a cool animation now. - colossi are problem? lets make the most straightforward and boring unit to counter it (tempest, copy of corruptors and vikings, with cool mecanics) - roaches are good? NERF them, hydras, sentries, infestors, tanks are good? NERF them all.
Remember how it was fun on Fruitdealer era? Then what it become on Stephano era?
Just look how beautiful Dota 2 is. Every hero is overpowered in some way, but alltogether they're balanced by their equal overpoweredness.
On May 14 2013 16:54 scph wrote: So they nerf infestors, which affects all matchups, buff the muta for harassment potential, then buff spores because of the new muta and the shittier infestor.
I get that the goal is to make changes that affect other matchups the least, but this is kind of pointless. Just makes the matchup more boring and even longer since great muta play in the midgame can no longer dictate the pace of the game. The spore change just lowers the skill ceiling by guaranteeing safety against fast mutas. So muta is buffed as a harassment unit against T and P, but when it comes to Z, it's too strong. I can think of many more harassments from T and P that are stronger, techs faster, and is more efficient for 100/100 per unit. Spores were fine the way they were. The changes still won't discourage muta play, because mutas have never been amazing until critical mass anyway. Now, we're just going to see people babying mutas until critical mass and whoever has the better upgrades and muta count during the final engagement wins. The question is, will it open up the hydra route? I seriously doubt it. It takes more than extra dps spores to make muta ling bane ineffective.
Buffing mutas was, at the first place, a stupid and unneeded idea at all. P were suffering from it enough in WoL, now it's even worse. What are they thinking about their balance approach is beyond common sense. Almost all Zv* match-ups now is ...1. whateveropening 2. mass mutas.
Now they buff spores... Why not turrets? Or thors? Or stalkers AA?
As a Terran I have never had a problem with mutas, there isn't any need for a turret buff. Also as a Terran I face mutas 1/3 TvZs tops.
Stop arguing that P was weak in WoL, P was fine there just wasn't that many top tier P players compared to T and Z.
On May 14 2013 18:15 saddaromma wrote: At first, I thought its very hard to balance the game. But more I look at it and the way its going, I think Dayvie (or someone at blizz) has a wrong vision of how it needs to be done.
Couple things particularly: 1. Whenever they talk about balance they mention raw battle.net statistics, which is bad. Lets take an example, say PvT is 60/40, what they gonna do about it? They can't buff terran, cause they mess up TvZ. So they proceed to nerf something about protoss which won't hurt othaer matchups. then gradually, game becomes linear and one dimensional.
2. They try to fuck with meta. Force some strategies, shut down 'unintended' strategies and so on.
fuckton of examples: - instead of fixing reapers or giving zerg other options they just killed strat alltogether. - voidrays got nerfed to oblivion, its just 'another' unit with a cool animation now. - colossi are problem? lets make the most straightforward and boring unit to counter it (tempest, copy of corruptors and vikings, with cool mecanics) - roaches are good? NERF them, hydras, sentries, infestors, tanks are good? NERF them all.
Remember how it was fun on Fruitdealer era? Then what it become on Stephano era?
Just look how beautiful Dota 2 is. Every hero is overpowered in some way, but alltogether they're balanced by their equal overpoweredness.
/rant.
Not quite sure what you're getting at, they didn't nerf anything.
This changes is prime example of balancing team in blizzard not knowing the game at all. ANY random high master zerg would tell you that the problem is not whatever they think it is when they buff the spores. The problem is that mutas with reasonable opener from both sides are the best choice as infestors just dont cut it anymore BECAUSE of the regen. If you managed to hit the mutas 1-2 fungals in WoL you could make 10 hydras and stomp him - now the mutas just heal back to full in no time and its useless as it is. Spore change is absurd.
On May 14 2013 18:17 Veriol wrote: This changes is prime example of balancing team in blizzard not knowing the game at all. ANY random high master zerg would tell you that the problem is not whatever they think it is when they buff the spores. The problem is that mutas with reasonable opener from both sides are the best choice as infestors just dont cut it anymore BECAUSE of the regen. If you managed to hit the mutas 1-2 fungals in WoL you could make 10 hydras and stomp him - now the mutas just heal back to full in no time and its useless as it is. Spore change is absurd.
I'd actually say this is one of the best recent balance patches they have done.
Are there any thoughts to change the PvZ matchup? The last PvZ match wich blowed my mind is long time ago TT. I wish in Protoss matches would be more action on the map, with constant unit trades like we see in TvZ.
On May 14 2013 16:40 SeriousLus wrote: classic Blizzard - never change something back but keep patching stuff^^
So instacast fungal would have been the way to go for you?
Classic stupid counterargument which totally ignores the post itself ... no matter how short it is. "Going back" means getting rid of Mutalisk regeneration.
and how do you know what he means? I was merely asking a question what he thinks would be going back for him and as instacast fungal was probably the biggest reason which kept mutas at bay in WoL it would be the logic answer.
Because it is the logical step to take. They nerfed Infestors and buffed Mutalisks at the same time. Which unit is giving us a hard time now? Mutalisks. Why? Because they are more forgiving to use due to regeneration AND the speed buff.
Taking out the changes which made one unit (too) good really is the LOGICAL CHOICE because it adjusts the power level of that one unit towards the power level of the other units instead of raising another unit to the power level of the too strong one with a bunch of other adjustments being required afterwards.
Obviously I cant know what SeriousLus thought, but I do know your thoughts were wrong and I simply assumed he chose better. If he didnt then both of you are wrong and I have to retract my statement of him choosing better.
Mutalisks are giving us a hard time in exactly one matchup. The mirror matchup. There is no reason to make any change that is not ZvZ specific at this point. The most logical choice is to do something along the lines of what they are doing, which is why I commented in the first place. The logical change to take back is Fungal if you'd wanted to solve the problem by taking back a change (but you won't get that as you have never played ZvZ at any reasonable level). Obviously it's a stupid one due to the other matchups. Obviously muta regeneration is a stupid one as well, due to the other matchups. We are back to "make it ZvZ specific".
I don't get all the Terran hate. Seriously. At the pro level Terran currently isn't overpowered at all, even with all the new units everyone wants nerfed. Hellbats and widow mines are shut down pretty easily with micro, and the pros have already adapted.
I think that a regen nerf would be better than the spore buff, because it puts the pressure on the muta player to control the mutas better, because damage doesn't just disappear. As compared to letting zergs throw down tons of spores and turtle hard, which this patch seems to promote. A regen nerf wouldn't make mutas inviable in other matchups, either. It would just force the zerg to micro them more intensively to have the same effect. On the other hand, props to blizzard for being cautious. I'd much rather see this than see them patching too much.
Protoss is still too strong, especially in Lategame. Blizz should do something about that! And btw If you're in Masters+ Widowmine drops or Hellbat drops doesn't work at all anymore. People just get 1 Cannon/Spore+Spine per Mineralline und you can't do alot anymore.
On May 14 2013 09:34 heyoka wrote: I'm down for anything that increases the number of viable strategies so if it makes gameplay more diverse, then good job.
On May 14 2013 18:29 Purpose88 wrote: Protoss is still too strong, especially in Lategame. Blizz should do something about that! And btw If you're in Masters+ Widowmine drops or Hellbat drops doesn't work at all anymore. People just get 1 Cannon/Spore+Spine per Mineralline und you can't do alot anymore.
You are joking. If mines + drops don't work at masters level+, how come pros use them ALL the time.
On May 14 2013 18:28 Terrasmith wrote: I don't get all the Terran hate. Seriously. At the pro level Terran currently isn't overpowered at all, even with all the new units everyone wants nerfed. Hellbats and widow mines are shut down pretty easily with micro, and the pros have already adapted.
Terran hate is tradition. The old sworn enemy from the the other neigboorhood. You NEED to hate them.
It is not about balance. It is about JUSTICE. Give us something equally op as 5 rax reaper, release tanks, old bunkerrushes, whatnot for the same time they had it D:. Then, after franticly laughing while abusing terrans on ladder with op stuff, maybe, maybe the terran hate will dissapear in some hearts. Probably not tho, stuff is too deep.
OT: This is the most uncreative lame balance attempt ever imo. Might work out fine for balance, if it raises game quality is another thing, who wants to see 52 dps spores turtle action?
On May 14 2013 18:28 Terrasmith wrote: I don't get all the Terran hate. Seriously. At the pro level Terran currently isn't overpowered at all, even with all the new units everyone wants nerfed. Hellbats and widow mines are shut down pretty easily with micro, and the pros have already adapted.
Terran hate is tradition. The old sworn enemy from the the other neigboorhood. You NEED to hate them.
It is not about balance. It is about JUSTICE. Give us something equally op as 5 rax reaper, release tanks, old bunkerrushes, whatnot for the same time they had it D:. Then, after franticly laughing while abusing terrans on ladder with op stuff, maybe, maybe the terran hate will dissapear in some hearts. Probably not tho, stuff is too deep.
Winfestor, gglords and siegequeens?
Although tbh traditional hating a race for fun is fine, just like zerg are dirty bugs. But it is nice if some people can come into a balance discussion with another mindset then that terran should be nerfed because they are terran.
On May 14 2013 09:34 LaLuSh wrote: I think hellbat was an obvious nerf that Blizzard omitted. There's no question it will be nerfed at some point. Apart from that it's probably good that they're waiting it out.
But I give it 6 months before the novelty value of HotS dies off and people start to get really really tired of camp fests again (especially ZvP).
There's a level of tolerance now that won't be there towards the second half of HotS life cycle. ZvZ change is positive.
I'm terran and totally agree on this. The hellbat is broken at such a level that even in TvT it's a broken unit, that's pretty telling. But I really hope they won't nerf it to the ground and make the unit worthless like the WoL reaper. It's a really cool unit that brings so much to the terran arsenal.
On May 14 2013 09:34 LaLuSh wrote: I think hellbat was an obvious nerf that Blizzard omitted. There's no question it will be nerfed at some point. Apart from that it's probably good that they're waiting it out.
But I give it 6 months before the novelty value of HotS dies off and people start to get really really tired of camp fests again (especially ZvP).
There's a level of tolerance now that won't be there towards the second half of HotS life cycle. ZvZ change is positive.
I'm terran and totally agree on this. The hellbat is broken at such a level that even in TvT it's a broken unit, that's pretty telling. But I really hope they won't nerf it to the ground and make the unit worthless like the WoL reaper. It's a really cool unit that brings so much to the terran arsenal.
I really have yet to see a game of TvT where the Hellbat is broken.
If people actually defend the drops don't do anything and marauders outrange hellbats so you can just kite them.
On May 14 2013 09:34 LaLuSh wrote: I think hellbat was an obvious nerf that Blizzard omitted. There's no question it will be nerfed at some point. Apart from that it's probably good that they're waiting it out.
But I give it 6 months before the novelty value of HotS dies off and people start to get really really tired of camp fests again (especially ZvP).
There's a level of tolerance now that won't be there towards the second half of HotS life cycle. ZvZ change is positive.
I'm terran and totally agree on this. The hellbat is broken at such a level that even in TvT it's a broken unit, that's pretty telling. But I really hope they won't nerf it to the ground and make the unit worthless like the WoL reaper. It's a really cool unit that brings so much to the terran arsenal.
I don't know about further hellbat nerfs. We have a slow short range unit right now. Once it connects it deals a lot of damage, but with the slow speed it's hard to make it work. Hellbat drops seem only an issue in TvT from my perspective. If Zerg or Protoss are losing to Hellbat drops, they're doing some things extremely wrong. If the dmg gets nerfed, then they have to increase the range. Because otherwise the unit will just be trash.
As a terran I don't have much problems with hellbat drop, and barely do them myself. I play normally bio-mech, but the time I tried mech I had my hellions in hellion mode 90% of the time, the extra speed was just so useful. If you get marauders with concussive shell then hellbats really are in TvT easy kills. And for the drops it is just a matter of investing enough in drop defense.
The main problem I have when playing against hellbats is simply the front assault against my siege lines, they soak up so much damage compared to bio. I still need to figure that out better to deal with it. But that doesn't mean I immediatly want it nerfed.
Hellbats being a problem in TvT is so 1 month ago. No one good has problems with them now.
Then there is TvP and TvZ. - In TvP they don't seem to be a problem. Maybe the drops? But I don't see a difference with blueflame hellion drops. - In TvZ they are strong, but as a player who doesn't use mines (I hear too much complains about them so I decided to not use them), hellbats are a nice. Are they too strong?
I also wonder how long it will take before zergs move away from the WOL muta ling bling style. It was not that good in WOL, and now in HOTS it's not better. I wonder what the problem is with hydra swarmhost compositions into viper ultra swarmhost or something. Some arguments I heard: - without muta's, drops are too strong. Then I wonder why zergs don't use spores and spines like at the end of wol. They seem to forget them these days. Spores together with 2-3 hydras and good overlord placement = bye drops. - swarmhosts are not good. Really? Then why do I shit my pants when someone makes them and puts his army on top of them?
How I see the future ZvT: - massive amounts of swarmhosts covered with roachhydra into strong hive with vipers. - mines being completely useless.
Guess I'll be stuck on 20% winratio in ZvT for another few balance patches aswell since apparently the game needs gasfree tier 3 splashdamage units that are nigh invincible.
without muta's, drops are too strong. Then I wonder why zergs don't use spores and spines like at the end of wol. They seem to forget them these days. Spores together with 2-3 hydras and good overlord placement = bye drops.
To answer this, the zerg army is already weaker than terrans/protoss, constantly having to surrender units to locate them in each of the bases as drop-defense(3 hydras per base, 4 bases~ thats 24 supply) is in the long run not viable at all, as for the static defense, well for a single hellbat drop, 2x hbs+ medivac, you'll need 2 spores to kill the medivac in a reasonable amount of time, and around 3 spines for the actual hellbats.
This setup alone will cost you 450 minerals whereas the terran already invested less than that to even make the drop in the first place, namely 300 minerals + 100 gas.
I don't even mind the medivac boost, but the hellbats are just dumb.
The thing about hellbats is that they are one of the last lifelines of mech, they pretty much exist to make up for the shitty DPS of tanks and clunkiness of thors. As support for bio they are rarely even built and without the necessary upgrades, rarely make much of a difference in a big fight.
The only way a hellbat nerf would be acceptable is if it comes with some buffs to the tank. I do think promoting tank-based playstyles would be a welcome change too, considering how badly the unit has fallen off the radar in HOTS.
On May 14 2013 19:52 Snowbear wrote: Hellbats being a problem in TvT is so 1 month ago. No one good has problems with them now.
Then there is TvP and TvZ. - In TvP they don't seem to be a problem. Maybe the drops? But I don't see a difference with blueflame hellion drops. - In TvZ they are strong, but as a player who doesn't use mines (I hear too much complains about them so I decided to not use them), hellbats are a nice. Are they too strong?
I also wonder how long it will take before zergs move away from the WOL muta ling bling style. It was not that good in WOL, and now in HOTS it's not better. I wonder what the problem is with hydra swarmhost compositions into viper ultra swarmhost or something. Some arguments I heard: - without muta's, drops are too strong. Then I wonder why zergs don't use spores and spines like at the end of wol. They seem to forget them these days. Spores together with 2-3 hydras and good overlord placement = bye drops. - swarmhosts are not good. Really? Then why do I shit my pants when someone makes them and puts his army on top of them?
How I see the future ZvT: - massive amounts of swarmhosts covered with roachhydra into strong hive with vipers. - mines being completely useless.
Mutas are the only decent way to deny terrans drops you'll still just boost past spores and drop somewhere else be it marines or hellbats, they are gas intensive units and that leaves us with zerglings based ground army.
On May 14 2013 19:53 lue wrote: This really wont change my ZvZ at all.
Guess I'll be stuck on 20% winratio in ZvT for another few balance patches aswell since apparently the game needs gasfree tier 3 splashdamage units that are nigh invincible.
without muta's, drops are too strong. Then I wonder why zergs don't use spores and spines like at the end of wol. They seem to forget them these days. Spores together with 2-3 hydras and good overlord placement = bye drops.
To answer this, the zerg army is already weaker than terrans/protoss, constantly having to surrender units to locate them in each of the bases as drop-defense(3 hydras per base, 4 bases~ thats 24 supply) is in the long run not viable at all, as for the static defense, well for a single hellbat drop, 2x hbs+ medivac, you'll need 2 spores to kill the medivac in a reasonable amount of time, and around 3 spines for the actual hellbats.
This setup alone will cost you 450 minerals whereas the terran already invested less than that to even make the drop in the first place, namely 300 minerals + 100 gas.
I don't even mind the medivac boost, but the hellbats are just dumb.
On May 14 2013 19:52 Snowbear wrote: Hellbats being a problem in TvT is so 1 month ago. No one good has problems with them now.
Then there is TvP and TvZ. - In TvP they don't seem to be a problem. Maybe the drops? But I don't see a difference with blueflame hellion drops. - In TvZ they are strong, but as a player who doesn't use mines (I hear too much complains about them so I decided to not use them), hellbats are a nice. Are they too strong?
I also wonder how long it will take before zergs move away from the WOL muta ling bling style. It was not that good in WOL, and now in HOTS it's not better. I wonder what the problem is with hydra swarmhost compositions into viper ultra swarmhost or something. Some arguments I heard: - without muta's, drops are too strong. Then I wonder why zergs don't use spores and spines like at the end of wol. They seem to forget them these days. Spores together with 2-3 hydras and good overlord placement = bye drops. - swarmhosts are not good. Really? Then why do I shit my pants when someone makes them and puts his army on top of them?
How I see the future ZvT: - massive amounts of swarmhosts covered with roachhydra into strong hive with vipers. - mines being completely useless.
Mutas are the only decent way to deny terrans drops you'll still just boost past spores and drop somewhere else be it marines or hellbats, they are gas intensive units and that leaves us with zerglings based ground army.
Boost over 2 spores and 2 hydras? Then end up in the spines?
On May 14 2013 19:52 Snowbear wrote: Hellbats being a problem in TvT is so 1 month ago. No one good has problems with them now.
Then there is TvP and TvZ. - In TvP they don't seem to be a problem. Maybe the drops? But I don't see a difference with blueflame hellion drops. - In TvZ they are strong, but as a player who doesn't use mines (I hear too much complains about them so I decided to not use them), hellbats are a nice. Are they too strong?
I also wonder how long it will take before zergs move away from the WOL muta ling bling style. It was not that good in WOL, and now in HOTS it's not better. I wonder what the problem is with hydra swarmhost compositions into viper ultra swarmhost or something. Some arguments I heard: - without muta's, drops are too strong. Then I wonder why zergs don't use spores and spines like at the end of wol. They seem to forget them these days. Spores together with 2-3 hydras and good overlord placement = bye drops. - swarmhosts are not good. Really? Then why do I shit my pants when someone makes them and puts his army on top of them?
How I see the future ZvT: - massive amounts of swarmhosts covered with roachhydra into strong hive with vipers. - mines being completely useless.
Mutas are the only decent way to deny terrans drops you'll still just boost past spores and drop somewhere else be it marines or hellbats, they are gas intensive units and that leaves us with zerglings based ground army.
Boost over 2 spores and 2 hydras? Then end up in the spines?
There's more than one entrance into the base over the air space. I'm not exactly complaining as my ZvT winrate is ~50ish% but the point stays ling/bling/muta is and will stay more effective way to deny drops while fighting bio/biomine which is what most terrans do go nowadays.
On May 14 2013 18:28 Terrasmith wrote: I don't get all the Terran hate. Seriously. At the pro level Terran currently isn't overpowered at all, even with all the new units everyone wants nerfed. Hellbats and widow mines are shut down pretty easily with micro, and the pros have already adapted.
At the pro level terran is fine, but at the non-pro level they're just too cost efficient with bio mine, on top of having so many early game options at their fingertips. Zerg has no effective counter to mines and plays identical to WoL for the first 10 minutes.
I don't know if there's any good way to make it easier for diamond and masters players to deal with mines without screwing it up for the pros (something that should be avoided at all costs). But it would be interesting to know if Blizzard is at least considering some options or not.
On May 14 2013 09:34 LaLuSh wrote: I think hellbat was an obvious nerf that Blizzard omitted. There's no question it will be nerfed at some point. Apart from that it's probably good that they're waiting it out.
But I give it 6 months before the novelty value of HotS dies off and people start to get really really tired of camp fests again (especially ZvP).
There's a level of tolerance now that won't be there towards the second half of HotS life cycle. ZvZ change is positive.
I'm terran and totally agree on this. The hellbat is broken at such a level that even in TvT it's a broken unit, that's pretty telling. But I really hope they won't nerf it to the ground and make the unit worthless like the WoL reaper. It's a really cool unit that brings so much to the terran arsenal.
I don't know about further hellbat nerfs. We have a slow short range unit right now. Once it connects it deals a lot of damage, but with the slow speed it's hard to make it work. Hellbat drops seem only an issue in TvT from my perspective. If Zerg or Protoss are losing to Hellbat drops, they're doing some things extremely wrong. If the dmg gets nerfed, then they have to increase the range. Because otherwise the unit will just be trash.
If you are not doing damage with hellbats against zerg or protoss meaby you are doing it extremely wrong? By the way you don't move on ground with hellbats you move with medivacs.
in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity. those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off. Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill) Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player)
for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay
On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote: in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity. those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off. Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill)
What you are describing is exactly how terran players felt for most of WOL, having to micro their ass off against any kind of AOE while their opponents had it much easier. Only the very best (Korean) terrans could accomplish anything with the race.
Mines and hellbats exist to equalize things for terran, no longer are they the only one easily punished for their mistakes. It's 100% intentional by design.
If Blizzard is willing to do this to fix ZvZ, and give widow mines bonus to shields to help them vs protoss, then why can't they do stuff like give banelings additional damage to shields?
On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote: in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity. those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off. Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill) Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player)
for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay
They're perfectly balanced. No, you cannot win by mindlessly a-moving (as easily) anymore. Yes, it's probably a shocking experience for you.
On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote: in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity. those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off. Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill)
What you are describing is exactly how terran players felt for most of WOL, having to micro their ass off against any kind of AOE while their opponents had it much easier.
And it wasn't a good thing then either. I'm in favor of balancing the game, not giving each race equal time of being too strong.
On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote: in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity. those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off. Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill)
What you are describing is exactly how terran players felt for most of WOL, having to micro their ass off against any kind of AOE while their opponents had it much easier.
And it wasn't a good thing then either. I'm in favor of balancing the game, not giving each race equal time of being too strong.
Exactly, so now it is added for every race that you have to micro or get screwed. Granted toss probably less now than T and Z, but still it is closer now.
It isn't like that WOL behavior was removed, it was that Terrans (grudgingly) adapted. One of those adaptations for example was a favor for all-ins, since then you simply kill your opponent before he has those AOE units.
If you don't want that micro requirement, fine, then you can nerf the widow mine, but at the same time you also will have to nerf toss and zerg AOE.
They're perfectly balanced. No, you cannot win by mindlessly a-moving (as easily) anymore. Yes, it's probably a shocking experience for you.[/QUOTE]
there is a difference between mindlessly a moving and working your ass off! the main problem with mines is: that as a zerg you have to suicide units=you lose ressources no matter what you do
the best trade possible vs a mine is: 25 minerals vs 75minerals 25gas which is 1/4 of the total ressources of a mine in case a terran have mines + army you simply wont be able to trade that good
-in case you send not enough lings they wont even trigger the mines=terran loses nothing! -in case you send too much=you will lose everything vs mines
On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote: in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity. those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off. Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill) Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player)
for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay
Learn to scout, a unit on watchtower, a supply depot/pylon/Overlord at the edges of your base.
Learn to read your minimap every 5 seconds.
Learn to anticipate the drop and counter the drop
Learn to select workers and move them in two different directions before the medivac drops the hellbats, THEN a-move your army towards the droped hellbats and
Learn to kite ranged units to stay out of hellbat range.
Learn the hold command so your units don't wander into widow mine territory
And that's how you defend vs. WM or hellbat drop at the most basic levels.
On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote: in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity. those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off. Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill) Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player)
for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay
They're perfectly balanced. No, you cannot win by mindlessly a-moving (as easily) anymore. Yes, it's probably a shocking experience for you.
Does every game balance discussion have to have 10% of the posts consist of variations of "LOL you can't win with no skill anymore, L2P"? What is the purpose of saying this? What does this add to the discussion?
On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote: in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity. those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off. Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill)
What you are describing is exactly how terran players felt for most of WOL, having to micro their ass off against any kind of AOE while their opponents had it much easier.
And it wasn't a good thing then either. I'm in favor of balancing the game, not giving each race equal time of being too strong.
Exactly, so now it is added for every race that you have to micro or get screwed. Granted toss probably less now than T and Z, but still it is closer now.
There's something that a surprising number of posters on TL don't seem to understand - there is a huuuuuuuge difference between "this strat requires micro to deal with" and "this strat requires extremely quick and precise mistake-free micro to the point where only the top 1-2% of players are capable of it".
The first situation leads to good gameplay. Splitting marines vs banes, feedbacks on ghosts or vipers, and so on.
The second (bio mine vs zerg) leads to good gameplay for those top players with excellent micro, and frustration and imbalance for most zergs in diamond and masters league. Even though the gameplay is great for the pros, there's a problem in the game for the pro-wannabes.
On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote: in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity. those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off. Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill)
What you are describing is exactly how terran players felt for most of WOL, having to micro their ass off against any kind of AOE while their opponents had it much easier.
And it wasn't a good thing then either. I'm in favor of balancing the game, not giving each race equal time of being too strong.
According to Blizzard the winrates are looking good right now. It's not like the AOE of other races ceased to exist once widow mines were introduced, marines are as fragile as they ever were. The difference is that terrans have microed (or at least tried to) every part of their army for the last 2-3 years, where as zergs are only now starting to learn.
On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote: in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity. those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off. Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill) Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player)
for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay
Learn to scout, a unit on watchtower, a supply depot/pylon/Overlord at the edges of your base.
Learn to read your minimap every 5 seconds.
Learn to anticipate the drop and counter the drop
Learn to select workers and move them in two different directions before the medivac drops the hellbats, THEN a-move your army towards the droped hellbats and
Learn to kite ranged units to stay out of hellbat range.
Learn the hold command so your units don't wander into widow mine territory
And that's how you defend vs. WM or hellbat drop at the most basic levels.
my main point isnt that I don't know what to do vs WM the point is that the best trade possible for zerg vs mines is 1/4 of the ressources that mines cost the ZvsT matchup just dont feel fair anymore..i think many players would agree with me (even progamer) and all Blizzard is doing is to fix the spore because of ZvsZ? guys ZvZ TvT and PvP are balanced..no matter what blizzard is going to chance!
On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote: in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity. those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off. Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill)
What you are describing is exactly how terran players felt for most of WOL, having to micro their ass off against any kind of AOE while their opponents had it much easier.
And it wasn't a good thing then either. I'm in favor of balancing the game, not giving each race equal time of being too strong.
According to Blizzard the winrates are looking good right now. It's not like the AOE of other races ceased to exist once widow mines were introduced, marines are as fragile as they ever were.
Maybe this is true. I would be very interested in seeing the TvZ winrate for various skill levels (diamond league, low masters, mid masters) for games where mines were heavily used. If it is near 50% I'd love to see some replays to discover how diamond and lower masters players are dealing with bio mine effectively (I'd hope it's not a roach allin every game).
The difference is that terrans have microed (or at least tried to) every part of their army for the last 2-3 years, where as zergs are only now starting to learn.
I never sent mutas on spores anyway it was really unethical play in the first place I don't think it will change the game though because of the map control they give
On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote: in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity. those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off. Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill) Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player)
for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay
Learn to scout, a unit on watchtower, a supply depot/pylon/Overlord at the edges of your base.
Learn to read your minimap every 5 seconds.
Learn to anticipate the drop and counter the drop
Learn to select workers and move them in two different directions before the medivac drops the hellbats, THEN a-move your army towards the droped hellbats and
Learn to kite ranged units to stay out of hellbat range.
Learn the hold command so your units don't wander into widow mine territory
And that's how you defend vs. WM or hellbat drop at the most basic levels.
my main point isnt that I don't know what to do vs WM the point is that the best trade possible for zerg vs mines is 1/4 of the ressources that mines cost the ZvsT matchup just dont feel fair anymore..i think many players would agree with me (even progamer) and all Blizzard is doing is to fix the spore because of ZvsZ? guys ZvZ TvT and PvP are balanced..no matter what blizzard is going to chance!
That's like saying it's unfair for DTs to destroy my army that has no detection!
If you've been following the strategy forum you know that infestors can clear up mines with ALL of their abilities:
infested Terran, 50mp, range 9, spawns egg which hatches into ranged unit for 30s
fungal growth, 75mp, AoE 2.0 radius, range 10, reveals mines and damages them 30 damage.
neural parasite, 100mp, range 7, control widow mine for 15s
And this is in addition to triggers by ling run-in, overseer's unshifted changeling.
I'm sorry but if the Zerg have one unit that can deal with widow mines with nothing but mp, you have nothing to complain about. Some honest opinions, learn-to-play or get a refund and stick with WoL.
On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote: in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity. those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off. Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill) Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player)
for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay
Banelinging an entire army is pretty cost effective and requires as much as a-move.
On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote: in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity. those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off. Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill) Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player)
for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay
Learn to scout, a unit on watchtower, a supply depot/pylon/Overlord at the edges of your base.
Learn to read your minimap every 5 seconds.
Learn to anticipate the drop and counter the drop
Learn to select workers and move them in two different directions before the medivac drops the hellbats, THEN a-move your army towards the droped hellbats and
Learn to kite ranged units to stay out of hellbat range.
Learn the hold command so your units don't wander into widow mine territory
And that's how you defend vs. WM or hellbat drop at the most basic levels.
my main point isnt that I don't know what to do vs WM the point is that the best trade possible for zerg vs mines is 1/4 of the ressources that mines cost
So best case scenario is being 4 times more cost effective than your opponent? What's the problem there? If it was 3/4th of cost effectiveness of your opponent, okay, but that isn't it according to you. Not to mention that you don't have to suicide a ling to kill it: You can tank them with ovis, outrange them with hydras, just kill them before they fire with roaches, fungal them, preferably before they burrow, set them off with one of your free units, let ultras tank them, etc.
Of course you can't kill every widow mine without losing anything, I also cannot kill the zerg army without losing anything. And yeah at non-pro level your micro won't be as good against widow mine, his widow mine usage also won't be as good. "But you only have to burrow them and they kill everything!!1!!!!1". When you run into a zerg army with banelings rolling towards you, you really got alot of micro to do in a very small time period, burrying widow mines isn't as trivial as it sounds. Next, once burrowed it is true the widow mines don't have to be micro'd much anymore. However your bio still has to be micro'd, not only against the banelings, but also against the mines! You see pro's often enough getting hammered by their own widow mines, that won't happen less to casual players.
And when the zerg survives and gets to late game he is in a very good position with the improved ultras, and widow mines much less useful.
On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote: in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity. those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off. Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill) Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player)
for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay
Learn to scout, a unit on watchtower, a supply depot/pylon/Overlord at the edges of your base.
Learn to read your minimap every 5 seconds.
Learn to anticipate the drop and counter the drop
Learn to select workers and move them in two different directions before the medivac drops the hellbats, THEN a-move your army towards the droped hellbats and
Learn to kite ranged units to stay out of hellbat range.
Learn the hold command so your units don't wander into widow mine territory
And that's how you defend vs. WM or hellbat drop at the most basic levels.
my main point isnt that I don't know what to do vs WM the point is that the best trade possible for zerg vs mines is 1/4 of the ressources that mines cost the ZvsT matchup just dont feel fair anymore..i think many players would agree with me (even progamer) and all Blizzard is doing is to fix the spore because of ZvsZ? guys ZvZ TvT and PvP are balanced..no matter what blizzard is going to chance!
That's like saying it's unfair for DTs to destroy my army that has no detection!
If you've been following the strategy forum you know that infestors can clear up mines with ALL of their abilities:
infested Terran, 50mp, range 9, spawns egg which hatches into ranged unit for 30s
fungal growth, 75mp, AoE 2.0 radius, range 10, reveals mines and damages them 30 damage.
neural parasite, 100mp, range 7, control widow mine for 15s
And this is in addition to triggers by ling run-in, overseer's unshifted changeling.
I'm sorry but if the Zerg have one unit that can deal with widow mines with nothing but mp, you have nothing to complain about. Some honest opinions, learn-to-play or get a refund and stick with WoL.
A few Zergs in this thread are going through A-Move Withdraw Syndrome, and quite frankly there's no reason to explain things like this to them as it's already been explained many times in these very pages. Let them keep whining while the Zerg population, distribution-wise, continues to dominate to upper ladder leagues.
Hm, not bad I suppose, we'll have to see if it will be enough to change the ZvZ state. Aside from that, I think the void ray charge and the hellbat could use changes. Void rays really look too strong in PvZ, while hellbat damage is really kind of ridiculous. Mines are fine in my opinion...
On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote: in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity. those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off. Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill) Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player)
for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay
Learn to scout, a unit on watchtower, a supply depot/pylon/Overlord at the edges of your base.
Learn to read your minimap every 5 seconds.
Learn to anticipate the drop and counter the drop
Learn to select workers and move them in two different directions before the medivac drops the hellbats, THEN a-move your army towards the droped hellbats and
Learn to kite ranged units to stay out of hellbat range.
Learn the hold command so your units don't wander into widow mine territory
And that's how you defend vs. WM or hellbat drop at the most basic levels.
my main point isnt that I don't know what to do vs WM the point is that the best trade possible for zerg vs mines is 1/4 of the ressources that mines cost the ZvsT matchup just dont feel fair anymore..i think many players would agree with me (even progamer) and all Blizzard is doing is to fix the spore because of ZvsZ? guys ZvZ TvT and PvP are balanced..no matter what blizzard is going to chance!
That's like saying it's unfair for DTs to destroy my army that has no detection!
If you've been following the strategy forum you know that infestors can clear up mines with ALL of their abilities:
infested Terran, 50mp, range 9, spawns egg which hatches into ranged unit for 30s
fungal growth, 75mp, AoE 2.0 radius, range 10, reveals mines and damages them 30 damage.
neural parasite, 100mp, range 7, control widow mine for 15s
And this is in addition to triggers by ling run-in, overseer's unshifted changeling.
I'm sorry but if the Zerg have one unit that can deal with widow mines with nothing but mp, you have nothing to complain about. Some honest opinions, learn-to-play or get a refund and stick with WoL.
you get mines faster than infestors! mines are cheaper! mines have cloak without tech! mines require almost no APM! and also The Terran gameplay is micro heavy-->just call mules and u ll be fine!! while as a zerg you have to inject+creepspread otherwise you are f***ked vs a good terran.
please stop this L2P issue..its just stupid - i am just saying its way too hard to deal with mines, while on the other side they require almost 0 skill to be used. the best 1% of all sc2 is maybe able to trade good vs mines - but i think on this level its not the balance it is the PLAYER SKILL that decides who wins.
On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote: in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity. those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off. Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill) Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player)
for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay
Learn to scout, a unit on watchtower, a supply depot/pylon/Overlord at the edges of your base.
Learn to read your minimap every 5 seconds.
Learn to anticipate the drop and counter the drop
Learn to select workers and move them in two different directions before the medivac drops the hellbats, THEN a-move your army towards the droped hellbats and
Learn to kite ranged units to stay out of hellbat range.
Learn the hold command so your units don't wander into widow mine territory
And that's how you defend vs. WM or hellbat drop at the most basic levels.
my main point isnt that I don't know what to do vs WM the point is that the best trade possible for zerg vs mines is 1/4 of the ressources that mines cost the ZvsT matchup just dont feel fair anymore..i think many players would agree with me (even progamer) and all Blizzard is doing is to fix the spore because of ZvsZ? guys ZvZ TvT and PvP are balanced..no matter what blizzard is going to chance!
That's like saying it's unfair for DTs to destroy my army that has no detection!
If you've been following the strategy forum you know that infestors can clear up mines with ALL of their abilities:
infested Terran, 50mp, range 9, spawns egg which hatches into ranged unit for 30s
fungal growth, 75mp, AoE 2.0 radius, range 10, reveals mines and damages them 30 damage.
neural parasite, 100mp, range 7, control widow mine for 15s
And this is in addition to triggers by ling run-in, overseer's unshifted changeling.
I'm sorry but if the Zerg have one unit that can deal with widow mines with nothing but mp, you have nothing to complain about. Some honest opinions, learn-to-play or get a refund and stick with WoL.
I agree with the first 2 infestor uses but please dont offer neural as a an effective counter to widow mines
On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote: in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity. those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off. Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill) Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player)
for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay
They're perfectly balanced. No, you cannot win by mindlessly a-moving (as easily) anymore. Yes, it's probably a shocking experience for you.
Does every game balance discussion have to have 10% of the posts consist of variations of "LOL you can't win with no skill anymore, L2P"? What is the purpose of saying this? What does this add to the discussion?
It adds something that is, at least in part, true. You can deal with Widow Mines if you learn to play better. That's a pretty well-established fact.
The only question is whether the skill necessary to deal with WMs is so much greater than the skill necessary to use WMs that a Zerg player must be substantially better than the Terran player to be on an even playing field.
Personally, I don't think so. I agree that it's more that Zergs haven't needed to use this kind of micro before and are going to have to learn to use it. It's not that they need more skill, just different skills than they're used to using.
why no fungal buff with more air damage? u would have 2 options in ZvZ after this buff: 1. ling infestor with heavy upgraded lings into fast hive etc.. 2. ling muta with heavy upgraded lings again.. i guess i am the only one who thinks that might work :/
On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote: in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity. those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off. Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill) Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player)
for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay
Learn to scout, a unit on watchtower, a supply depot/pylon/Overlord at the edges of your base.
Learn to read your minimap every 5 seconds.
Learn to anticipate the drop and counter the drop
Learn to select workers and move them in two different directions before the medivac drops the hellbats, THEN a-move your army towards the droped hellbats and
Learn to kite ranged units to stay out of hellbat range.
Learn the hold command so your units don't wander into widow mine territory
And that's how you defend vs. WM or hellbat drop at the most basic levels.
my main point isnt that I don't know what to do vs WM the point is that the best trade possible for zerg vs mines is 1/4 of the ressources that mines cost the ZvsT matchup just dont feel fair anymore..i think many players would agree with me (even progamer) and all Blizzard is doing is to fix the spore because of ZvsZ? guys ZvZ TvT and PvP are balanced..no matter what blizzard is going to chance!
That's like saying it's unfair for DTs to destroy my army that has no detection!
If you've been following the strategy forum you know that infestors can clear up mines with ALL of their abilities:
infested Terran, 50mp, range 9, spawns egg which hatches into ranged unit for 30s
fungal growth, 75mp, AoE 2.0 radius, range 10, reveals mines and damages them 30 damage.
neural parasite, 100mp, range 7, control widow mine for 15s
And this is in addition to triggers by ling run-in, overseer's unshifted changeling.
I'm sorry but if the Zerg have one unit that can deal with widow mines with nothing but mp, you have nothing to complain about. Some honest opinions, learn-to-play or get a refund and stick with WoL.
you get mines faster than infestors! mines are cheaper! mines have cloak without tech! mines require almost no APM! and also The Terran gameplay is micro heavy-->just call mules and u ll be fine!! while as a zerg you have to inject+creepspread otherwise you are f***ked vs a good terran.
please stop this L2P issue..its just stupid - i am just saying its way too hard to deal with mines, while on the other side they require almost 0 skill to be used. the best 1% of all sc2 is maybe able to trade good vs mines - but i think on this level its not the balance it is the PLAYER SKILL that decides who wins.
Look if I end up covering both your bases' exits with widow mine network that you can't deal with despite having "superior skills", you might want to re-check your definition of superior. Review your replays, maybe you could have spotted my factory building a reactor and not seeing any hellions?
I mean, if you are losing games over the loss of 25m zerglings to 75m/25g widow mines which reload slower than a zergling...
On May 14 2013 20:55 Grumbels wrote: If Blizzard is willing to do this to fix ZvZ, and give widow mines bonus to shields to help them vs protoss, then why can't they do stuff like give banelings additional damage to shields?
Because they don't see a matchup imbalance where they need to give Zerg additional splash damage against Protoss ground?
On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote: in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity. those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off. Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill) Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player)
for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay
They're perfectly balanced. No, you cannot win by mindlessly a-moving (as easily) anymore. Yes, it's probably a shocking experience for you.
Does every game balance discussion have to have 10% of the posts consist of variations of "LOL you can't win with no skill anymore, L2P"? What is the purpose of saying this? What does this add to the discussion?
It adds something that is, at least in part, true. You can deal with Widow Mines if you learn to play better. That's a pretty well-established fact.
The only question is whether the skill necessary to deal with WMs is so much greater than the skill necessary to use WMs that a Zerg player must be substantially better than the Terran player to be on an even playing field.
Personally, I don't think so. I agree that it's more that Zergs haven't needed to use this kind of micro before and are going to have to learn to use it. It's not that they need more skill, just different skills than they're used to using.
Terran players are ranked noticeably lower on the ladder on average. So no they don't zerg is in fact easier at lower levels.
On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote: in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity. those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off. Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill) Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player)
for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay
Learn to scout, a unit on watchtower, a supply depot/pylon/Overlord at the edges of your base.
Learn to read your minimap every 5 seconds.
Learn to anticipate the drop and counter the drop
Learn to select workers and move them in two different directions before the medivac drops the hellbats, THEN a-move your army towards the droped hellbats and
Learn to kite ranged units to stay out of hellbat range.
Learn the hold command so your units don't wander into widow mine territory
And that's how you defend vs. WM or hellbat drop at the most basic levels.
my main point isnt that I don't know what to do vs WM the point is that the best trade possible for zerg vs mines is 1/4 of the ressources that mines cost the ZvsT matchup just dont feel fair anymore..i think many players would agree with me (even progamer) and all Blizzard is doing is to fix the spore because of ZvsZ? guys ZvZ TvT and PvP are balanced..no matter what blizzard is going to chance!
That's like saying it's unfair for DTs to destroy my army that has no detection!
If you've been following the strategy forum you know that infestors can clear up mines with ALL of their abilities:
infested Terran, 50mp, range 9, spawns egg which hatches into ranged unit for 30s
fungal growth, 75mp, AoE 2.0 radius, range 10, reveals mines and damages them 30 damage.
neural parasite, 100mp, range 7, control widow mine for 15s
And this is in addition to triggers by ling run-in, overseer's unshifted changeling.
I'm sorry but if the Zerg have one unit that can deal with widow mines with nothing but mp, you have nothing to complain about. Some honest opinions, learn-to-play or get a refund and stick with WoL.
you get mines faster than infestors! mines are cheaper! mines have cloak without tech! mines require almost no APM! and also The Terran gameplay is micro heavy-->just call mules and u ll be fine!! while as a zerg you have to inject+creepspread otherwise you are f***ked vs a good terran.
please stop this L2P issue..its just stupid - i am just saying its way too hard to deal with mines, while on the other side they require almost 0 skill to be used. the best 1% of all sc2 is maybe able to trade good vs mines - but i think on this level its not the balance it is the PLAYER SKILL that decides who wins.
You know what? Im gonna let you whine about this since every terran has whined about banelings and infestors at some point in their career. And please you act as if we dont build stuff too -_-. Practice more. Inject and creep spread should be muscle memory by now.
On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote: in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity. those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off. Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill)
What you are describing is exactly how terran players felt for most of WOL, having to micro their ass off against any kind of AOE while their opponents had it much easier.
And it wasn't a good thing then either. I'm in favor of balancing the game, not giving each race equal time of being too strong.
According to Blizzard the winrates are looking good right now. It's not like the AOE of other races ceased to exist once widow mines were introduced, marines are as fragile as they ever were.
Maybe this is true. I would be very interested in seeing the TvZ winrate for various skill levels (diamond league, low masters, mid masters) for games where mines were heavily used. If it is near 50% I'd love to see some replays to discover how diamond and lower masters players are dealing with bio mine effectively (I'd hope it's not a roach allin every game).
The difference is that terrans have microed (or at least tried to) every part of their army for the last 2-3 years, where as zergs are only now starting to learn.
Oh please.
"Maybe this is true, but I'm going to imply zergs only win by all-inning against mines." Okay?
Why "oh please"? For the record I don't mean zergs haven't microed at all, but this specific type of anti-mine micro is a completely new thing for zergs to deal with. Just like it took terrans half a year to realize they could even split against banes, it will take some time for zergs to get comfortable against mines.
lol now zergs know how terrans felt when they would instantly lose like 30 marines thanks to a couple burrowed banelings. cant believe that zergs of all players would QQ about something like that. so sorry you cant just send a pack of zerglings into a mineral line from across the map using only the minimap and without ever looking at where they are going anymore
On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote: in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity. those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off. Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill) Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player)
for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay
Learn to scout, a unit on watchtower, a supply depot/pylon/Overlord at the edges of your base.
Learn to read your minimap every 5 seconds.
Learn to anticipate the drop and counter the drop
Learn to select workers and move them in two different directions before the medivac drops the hellbats, THEN a-move your army towards the droped hellbats and
Learn to kite ranged units to stay out of hellbat range.
Learn the hold command so your units don't wander into widow mine territory
And that's how you defend vs. WM or hellbat drop at the most basic levels.
my main point isnt that I don't know what to do vs WM the point is that the best trade possible for zerg vs mines is 1/4 of the ressources that mines cost the ZvsT matchup just dont feel fair anymore..i think many players would agree with me (even progamer) and all Blizzard is doing is to fix the spore because of ZvsZ? guys ZvZ TvT and PvP are balanced..no matter what blizzard is going to chance!
That's like saying it's unfair for DTs to destroy my army that has no detection!
If you've been following the strategy forum you know that infestors can clear up mines with ALL of their abilities:
infested Terran, 50mp, range 9, spawns egg which hatches into ranged unit for 30s
fungal growth, 75mp, AoE 2.0 radius, range 10, reveals mines and damages them 30 damage.
neural parasite, 100mp, range 7, control widow mine for 15s
And this is in addition to triggers by ling run-in, overseer's unshifted changeling.
I'm sorry but if the Zerg have one unit that can deal with widow mines with nothing but mp, you have nothing to complain about. Some honest opinions, learn-to-play or get a refund and stick with WoL.
The problem is not that there is no counter. The problem is that the counter is significantly more difficult than any other counter to a unit comp in the game. If it was a matter of "don't run 10 clumped banelings over a widow mine" or "just get detection and go around the mines" or "make some of these units which are good against mines, and micro them like this" then it would be great.
But when there's a ball of MMM poking around, using the mines for cover, guarding the mines from mine-clearing suicide lings, etc... it is very difficult to avoid engaging that without being so cost-inefficient that you lose the game. It is far more difficult than splitting marines up, or positioning your units in a particular way.
After 50+ attempts with roach/hydra/viper I doubt this unit comp has any future in ZvT. It's less bad against mines, but it's very weak vs bio when there's no blinding cloud, and cloud is easy for terran to evade.
If there's a counter for this skill level it seems like it has to be infested terrans. The problem is that the mines take too long to fire, so marines kill the eggs and the mine cancels its firing animation. If only mines fired instantly (like almost every other unit) then zerg's problems would be solved.
On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote: in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity. those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off. Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill) Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player)
for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay
Learn to scout, a unit on watchtower, a supply depot/pylon/Overlord at the edges of your base.
Learn to read your minimap every 5 seconds.
Learn to anticipate the drop and counter the drop
Learn to select workers and move them in two different directions before the medivac drops the hellbats, THEN a-move your army towards the droped hellbats and
Learn to kite ranged units to stay out of hellbat range.
Learn the hold command so your units don't wander into widow mine territory
And that's how you defend vs. WM or hellbat drop at the most basic levels.
my main point isnt that I don't know what to do vs WM the point is that the best trade possible for zerg vs mines is 1/4 of the ressources that mines cost the ZvsT matchup just dont feel fair anymore..i think many players would agree with me (even progamer) and all Blizzard is doing is to fix the spore because of ZvsZ? guys ZvZ TvT and PvP are balanced..no matter what blizzard is going to chance!
That's like saying it's unfair for DTs to destroy my army that has no detection!
If you've been following the strategy forum you know that infestors can clear up mines with ALL of their abilities:
infested Terran, 50mp, range 9, spawns egg which hatches into ranged unit for 30s
fungal growth, 75mp, AoE 2.0 radius, range 10, reveals mines and damages them 30 damage.
neural parasite, 100mp, range 7, control widow mine for 15s
And this is in addition to triggers by ling run-in, overseer's unshifted changeling.
I'm sorry but if the Zerg have one unit that can deal with widow mines with nothing but mp, you have nothing to complain about. Some honest opinions, learn-to-play or get a refund and stick with WoL.
The problem is not that there is no counter. The problem is that the counter is significantly more difficult than any other counter to a unit comp in the game. If it was a matter of "don't run 10 clumped banelings over a widow mine" or "just get detection and go around the mines" or "make some of these units which are good against mines, and micro them like this" then it would be great.
But when there's a ball of MMM poking around, using the mines for cover, guarding the mines from mine-clearing suicide lings, etc... it is very difficult to avoid engaging that without being so cost-inefficient that you lose the game. It is far more difficult than splitting marines up, or positioning your units in a particular way.
After 50+ attempts with roach/hydra/viper I doubt this unit comp has any future in ZvT. It's less bad against mines, but it's very weak vs bio when there's no blinding cloud, and cloud is easy for terran to evade.
If there's a counter for this skill level it seems like it has to be infested terrans. The problem is that the mines take too long to fire, so marines kill the eggs and the mine cancels its firing animation. If only mines fired instantly (like almost every other unit) then zerg's problems would be solved.
On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote: in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity. those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off. Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill) Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player)
for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay
Learn to scout, a unit on watchtower, a supply depot/pylon/Overlord at the edges of your base.
Learn to read your minimap every 5 seconds.
Learn to anticipate the drop and counter the drop
Learn to select workers and move them in two different directions before the medivac drops the hellbats, THEN a-move your army towards the droped hellbats and
Learn to kite ranged units to stay out of hellbat range.
Learn the hold command so your units don't wander into widow mine territory
And that's how you defend vs. WM or hellbat drop at the most basic levels.
my main point isnt that I don't know what to do vs WM the point is that the best trade possible for zerg vs mines is 1/4 of the ressources that mines cost the ZvsT matchup just dont feel fair anymore..i think many players would agree with me (even progamer) and all Blizzard is doing is to fix the spore because of ZvsZ? guys ZvZ TvT and PvP are balanced..no matter what blizzard is going to chance!
That's like saying it's unfair for DTs to destroy my army that has no detection!
If you've been following the strategy forum you know that infestors can clear up mines with ALL of their abilities:
infested Terran, 50mp, range 9, spawns egg which hatches into ranged unit for 30s
fungal growth, 75mp, AoE 2.0 radius, range 10, reveals mines and damages them 30 damage.
neural parasite, 100mp, range 7, control widow mine for 15s
And this is in addition to triggers by ling run-in, overseer's unshifted changeling.
I'm sorry but if the Zerg have one unit that can deal with widow mines with nothing but mp, you have nothing to complain about. Some honest opinions, learn-to-play or get a refund and stick with WoL.
The problem is not that there is no counter. The problem is that the counter is significantly more difficult than any other counter to a unit comp in the game. If it was a matter of "don't run 10 clumped banelings over a widow mine" or "just get detection and go around the mines" or "make some of these units which are good against mines, and micro them like this" then it would be great.
But when there's a ball of MMM poking around, using the mines for cover, guarding the mines from mine-clearing suicide lings, etc... it is very difficult to avoid engaging that without being so cost-inefficient that you lose the game. It is far more difficult than splitting marines up, or positioning your units in a particular way.
After 50+ attempts with roach/hydra/viper I doubt this unit comp has any future in ZvT. It's less bad against mines, but it's very weak vs bio when there's no blinding cloud, and cloud is easy for terran to evade.
If there's a counter for this skill level it seems like it has to be infested terrans. The problem is that the mines take too long to fire, so marines kill the eggs and the mine cancels its firing animation. If only mines fired instantly (like almost every other unit) then zerg's problems would be solved.
On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote: in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity. those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off. Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill) Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player)
for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay
They're perfectly balanced. No, you cannot win by mindlessly a-moving (as easily) anymore. Yes, it's probably a shocking experience for you.
Does every game balance discussion have to have 10% of the posts consist of variations of "LOL you can't win with no skill anymore, L2P"? What is the purpose of saying this? What does this add to the discussion?
It adds something that is, at least in part, true. You can deal with Widow Mines if you learn to play better. That's a pretty well-established fact.
The only question is whether the skill necessary to deal with WMs is so much greater than the skill necessary to use WMs that a Zerg player must be substantially better than the Terran player to be on an even playing field.
Personally, I don't think so. I agree that it's more that Zergs haven't needed to use this kind of micro before and are going to have to learn to use it. It's not that they need more skill, just different skills than they're used to using.
That logic is flawed. It's easier to fungal units then it is to avoid fungal (even now), it's easier to A-move Ultras than it is to kite them, etc..not the best examples but you get my point.
On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote: in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity. those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off. Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill) Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player)
for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay
Learn to scout, a unit on watchtower, a supply depot/pylon/Overlord at the edges of your base.
Learn to read your minimap every 5 seconds.
Learn to anticipate the drop and counter the drop
Learn to select workers and move them in two different directions before the medivac drops the hellbats, THEN a-move your army towards the droped hellbats and
Learn to kite ranged units to stay out of hellbat range.
Learn the hold command so your units don't wander into widow mine territory
And that's how you defend vs. WM or hellbat drop at the most basic levels.
my main point isnt that I don't know what to do vs WM the point is that the best trade possible for zerg vs mines is 1/4 of the ressources that mines cost the ZvsT matchup just dont feel fair anymore..i think many players would agree with me (even progamer) and all Blizzard is doing is to fix the spore because of ZvsZ? guys ZvZ TvT and PvP are balanced..no matter what blizzard is going to chance!
That's like saying it's unfair for DTs to destroy my army that has no detection!
If you've been following the strategy forum you know that infestors can clear up mines with ALL of their abilities:
infested Terran, 50mp, range 9, spawns egg which hatches into ranged unit for 30s
fungal growth, 75mp, AoE 2.0 radius, range 10, reveals mines and damages them 30 damage.
neural parasite, 100mp, range 7, control widow mine for 15s
And this is in addition to triggers by ling run-in, overseer's unshifted changeling.
I'm sorry but if the Zerg have one unit that can deal with widow mines with nothing but mp, you have nothing to complain about. Some honest opinions, learn-to-play or get a refund and stick with WoL.
The problem is not that there is no counter. The problem is that the counter is significantly more difficult than any other counter to a unit comp in the game. If it was a matter of "don't run 10 clumped banelings over a widow mine" or "just get detection and go around the mines" or "make some of these units which are good against mines, and micro them like this" then it would be great.
But when there's a ball of MMM poking around, using the mines for cover, guarding the mines from mine-clearing suicide lings, etc... it is very difficult to avoid engaging that without being so cost-inefficient that you lose the game. It is far more difficult than splitting marines up, or positioning your units in a particular way.
After 50+ attempts with roach/hydra/viper I doubt this unit comp has any future in ZvT. It's less bad against mines, but it's very weak vs bio when there's no blinding cloud, and cloud is easy for terran to evade.
If there's a counter for this skill level it seems like it has to be infested terrans. The problem is that the mines take too long to fire, so marines kill the eggs and the mine cancels its firing animation. If only mines fired instantly (like almost every other unit) then zerg's problems would be solved.
Man you were doing fine until you got to the point where you said that eggs were easy to kill. THIS ISNT MECH DUDE. Dont throw the eggs INTO the middle of the marines -_-.
On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote: in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity. those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off. Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill) Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player)
for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay
Learn to scout, a unit on watchtower, a supply depot/pylon/Overlord at the edges of your base.
Learn to read your minimap every 5 seconds.
Learn to anticipate the drop and counter the drop
Learn to select workers and move them in two different directions before the medivac drops the hellbats, THEN a-move your army towards the droped hellbats and
Learn to kite ranged units to stay out of hellbat range.
Learn the hold command so your units don't wander into widow mine territory
And that's how you defend vs. WM or hellbat drop at the most basic levels.
my main point isnt that I don't know what to do vs WM the point is that the best trade possible for zerg vs mines is 1/4 of the ressources that mines cost the ZvsT matchup just dont feel fair anymore..i think many players would agree with me (even progamer) and all Blizzard is doing is to fix the spore because of ZvsZ? guys ZvZ TvT and PvP are balanced..no matter what blizzard is going to chance!
That's like saying it's unfair for DTs to destroy my army that has no detection!
If you've been following the strategy forum you know that infestors can clear up mines with ALL of their abilities:
infested Terran, 50mp, range 9, spawns egg which hatches into ranged unit for 30s
fungal growth, 75mp, AoE 2.0 radius, range 10, reveals mines and damages them 30 damage.
neural parasite, 100mp, range 7, control widow mine for 15s
And this is in addition to triggers by ling run-in, overseer's unshifted changeling.
I'm sorry but if the Zerg have one unit that can deal with widow mines with nothing but mp, you have nothing to complain about. Some honest opinions, learn-to-play or get a refund and stick with WoL.
The problem is not that there is no counter. The problem is that the counter is significantly more difficult than any other counter to a unit comp in the game. If it was a matter of "don't run 10 clumped banelings over a widow mine" or "just get detection and go around the mines" or "make some of these units which are good against mines, and micro them like this" then it would be great.
But when there's a ball of MMM poking around, using the mines for cover, guarding the mines from mine-clearing suicide lings, etc... it is very difficult to avoid engaging that without being so cost-inefficient that you lose the game. It is far more difficult than splitting marines up, or positioning your units in a particular way.
After 50+ attempts with roach/hydra/viper I doubt this unit comp has any future in ZvT. It's less bad against mines, but it's very weak vs bio when there's no blinding cloud, and cloud is easy for terran to evade.
If there's a counter for this skill level it seems like it has to be infested terrans. The problem is that the mines take too long to fire, so marines kill the eggs and the mine cancels its firing animation. If only mines fired instantly (like almost every other unit) then zerg's problems would be solved.
Man you were doing fine until you got to the point where you said that eggs were easy to kill. THIS ISNT MECH DUDE. Dont throw the eggs INTO the middle of the marines -_-.
Um... Actually, having a burrowed infestor drop an egg on top a MMMM army is the ultimate troll.
WHY ARE MY MINES KILLING MEEEE! *T reloads replay, sees eggs land into the middle of the bio+mine army triggering widow mines, that you-have-been-trolled feel.
On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote: in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity. those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off. Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill)
What you are describing is exactly how terran players felt for most of WOL, having to micro their ass off against any kind of AOE while their opponents had it much easier.
And it wasn't a good thing then either. I'm in favor of balancing the game, not giving each race equal time of being too strong.
According to Blizzard the winrates are looking good right now. It's not like the AOE of other races ceased to exist once widow mines were introduced, marines are as fragile as they ever were.
Maybe this is true. I would be very interested in seeing the TvZ winrate for various skill levels (diamond league, low masters, mid masters) for games where mines were heavily used. If it is near 50% I'd love to see some replays to discover how diamond and lower masters players are dealing with bio mine effectively (I'd hope it's not a roach allin every game).
The difference is that terrans have microed (or at least tried to) every part of their army for the last 2-3 years, where as zergs are only now starting to learn.
Oh please.
Why "oh please"? For the record I don't mean zergs haven't microed at all, but this specific type of anti-mine micro is a completely new thing for zergs to deal with. Just like it took terrans half a year to realize they could even split against banes, it will take some time for zergs to get comfortable against mines.
It sounded like yet another insult along the lines of "zergs use zero micro and they're all bad". Your point about learning to deal with mines is valid... as of December. It has been close to 5 months and there are no reliable counters to bio mine other than mastering the precise anti-mine micro... something that is simply out of the reach of most players.
Suppose baneling splash damage area was larger and your marine splits had to be flawless to be useful at all. Would you say "look, Marineking can do it, so just get better at it and make sure you don't mess it up!" or would you recognize that it's just not good gameplay at below-pro skill levels?
On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote: in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity. those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off. Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill) Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player)
for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay
Learn to scout, a unit on watchtower, a supply depot/pylon/Overlord at the edges of your base.
Learn to read your minimap every 5 seconds.
Learn to anticipate the drop and counter the drop
Learn to select workers and move them in two different directions before the medivac drops the hellbats, THEN a-move your army towards the droped hellbats and
Learn to kite ranged units to stay out of hellbat range.
Learn the hold command so your units don't wander into widow mine territory
And that's how you defend vs. WM or hellbat drop at the most basic levels.
my main point isnt that I don't know what to do vs WM the point is that the best trade possible for zerg vs mines is 1/4 of the ressources that mines cost the ZvsT matchup just dont feel fair anymore..i think many players would agree with me (even progamer) and all Blizzard is doing is to fix the spore because of ZvsZ? guys ZvZ TvT and PvP are balanced..no matter what blizzard is going to chance!
That's like saying it's unfair for DTs to destroy my army that has no detection!
If you've been following the strategy forum you know that infestors can clear up mines with ALL of their abilities:
infested Terran, 50mp, range 9, spawns egg which hatches into ranged unit for 30s
fungal growth, 75mp, AoE 2.0 radius, range 10, reveals mines and damages them 30 damage.
neural parasite, 100mp, range 7, control widow mine for 15s
And this is in addition to triggers by ling run-in, overseer's unshifted changeling.
I'm sorry but if the Zerg have one unit that can deal with widow mines with nothing but mp, you have nothing to complain about. Some honest opinions, learn-to-play or get a refund and stick with WoL.
The problem is not that there is no counter. The problem is that the counter is significantly more difficult than any other counter to a unit comp in the game. If it was a matter of "don't run 10 clumped banelings over a widow mine" or "just get detection and go around the mines" or "make some of these units which are good against mines, and micro them like this" then it would be great.
But when there's a ball of MMM poking around, using the mines for cover, guarding the mines from mine-clearing suicide lings, etc... it is very difficult to avoid engaging that without being so cost-inefficient that you lose the game. It is far more difficult than splitting marines up, or positioning your units in a particular way.
After 50+ attempts with roach/hydra/viper I doubt this unit comp has any future in ZvT. It's less bad against mines, but it's very weak vs bio when there's no blinding cloud, and cloud is easy for terran to evade.
If there's a counter for this skill level it seems like it has to be infested terrans. The problem is that the mines take too long to fire, so marines kill the eggs and the mine cancels its firing animation. If only mines fired instantly (like almost every other unit) then zerg's problems would be solved.
Man you were doing fine until you got to the point where you said that eggs were easy to kill. THIS ISNT MECH DUDE. Dont throw the eggs INTO the middle of the marines -_-.
Um... Actually, having a burrowed infestor drop an egg on top a MMMM army is the ultimate troll.
WHY ARE MY MINES KILLING MEEEE! *T reloads replay, sees eggs land into the middle of the bio+mine army triggering widow mines, that you-have-been-trolled feel.
bro, eggs have 70ish HP, either the guy doesn't have much of an army together, or you're spending a lot of energy to troll, lol
On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote: in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity. those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off. Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill) Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player)
for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay
Learn to scout, a unit on watchtower, a supply depot/pylon/Overlord at the edges of your base.
Learn to read your minimap every 5 seconds.
Learn to anticipate the drop and counter the drop
Learn to select workers and move them in two different directions before the medivac drops the hellbats, THEN a-move your army towards the droped hellbats and
Learn to kite ranged units to stay out of hellbat range.
Learn the hold command so your units don't wander into widow mine territory
And that's how you defend vs. WM or hellbat drop at the most basic levels.
my main point isnt that I don't know what to do vs WM the point is that the best trade possible for zerg vs mines is 1/4 of the ressources that mines cost the ZvsT matchup just dont feel fair anymore..i think many players would agree with me (even progamer) and all Blizzard is doing is to fix the spore because of ZvsZ? guys ZvZ TvT and PvP are balanced..no matter what blizzard is going to chance!
That's like saying it's unfair for DTs to destroy my army that has no detection!
If you've been following the strategy forum you know that infestors can clear up mines with ALL of their abilities:
infested Terran, 50mp, range 9, spawns egg which hatches into ranged unit for 30s
fungal growth, 75mp, AoE 2.0 radius, range 10, reveals mines and damages them 30 damage.
neural parasite, 100mp, range 7, control widow mine for 15s
And this is in addition to triggers by ling run-in, overseer's unshifted changeling.
I'm sorry but if the Zerg have one unit that can deal with widow mines with nothing but mp, you have nothing to complain about. Some honest opinions, learn-to-play or get a refund and stick with WoL.
The problem is not that there is no counter. The problem is that the counter is significantly more difficult than any other counter to a unit comp in the game. If it was a matter of "don't run 10 clumped banelings over a widow mine" or "just get detection and go around the mines" or "make some of these units which are good against mines, and micro them like this" then it would be great.
But when there's a ball of MMM poking around, using the mines for cover, guarding the mines from mine-clearing suicide lings, etc... it is very difficult to avoid engaging that without being so cost-inefficient that you lose the game. It is far more difficult than splitting marines up, or positioning your units in a particular way.
After 50+ attempts with roach/hydra/viper I doubt this unit comp has any future in ZvT. It's less bad against mines, but it's very weak vs bio when there's no blinding cloud, and cloud is easy for terran to evade.
If there's a counter for this skill level it seems like it has to be infested terrans. The problem is that the mines take too long to fire, so marines kill the eggs and the mine cancels its firing animation. If only mines fired instantly (like almost every other unit) then zerg's problems would be solved.
On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote: in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity. those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off. Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill) Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player)
for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay
Learn to scout, a unit on watchtower, a supply depot/pylon/Overlord at the edges of your base.
Learn to read your minimap every 5 seconds.
Learn to anticipate the drop and counter the drop
Learn to select workers and move them in two different directions before the medivac drops the hellbats, THEN a-move your army towards the droped hellbats and
Learn to kite ranged units to stay out of hellbat range.
Learn the hold command so your units don't wander into widow mine territory
And that's how you defend vs. WM or hellbat drop at the most basic levels.
my main point isnt that I don't know what to do vs WM the point is that the best trade possible for zerg vs mines is 1/4 of the ressources that mines cost the ZvsT matchup just dont feel fair anymore..i think many players would agree with me (even progamer) and all Blizzard is doing is to fix the spore because of ZvsZ? guys ZvZ TvT and PvP are balanced..no matter what blizzard is going to chance!
That's like saying it's unfair for DTs to destroy my army that has no detection!
If you've been following the strategy forum you know that infestors can clear up mines with ALL of their abilities:
infested Terran, 50mp, range 9, spawns egg which hatches into ranged unit for 30s
fungal growth, 75mp, AoE 2.0 radius, range 10, reveals mines and damages them 30 damage.
neural parasite, 100mp, range 7, control widow mine for 15s
And this is in addition to triggers by ling run-in, overseer's unshifted changeling.
I'm sorry but if the Zerg have one unit that can deal with widow mines with nothing but mp, you have nothing to complain about. Some honest opinions, learn-to-play or get a refund and stick with WoL.
The problem is not that there is no counter. The problem is that the counter is significantly more difficult than any other counter to a unit comp in the game. If it was a matter of "don't run 10 clumped banelings over a widow mine" or "just get detection and go around the mines" or "make some of these units which are good against mines, and micro them like this" then it would be great.
But when there's a ball of MMM poking around, using the mines for cover, guarding the mines from mine-clearing suicide lings, etc... it is very difficult to avoid engaging that without being so cost-inefficient that you lose the game. It is far more difficult than splitting marines up, or positioning your units in a particular way.
After 50+ attempts with roach/hydra/viper I doubt this unit comp has any future in ZvT. It's less bad against mines, but it's very weak vs bio when there's no blinding cloud, and cloud is easy for terran to evade.
If there's a counter for this skill level it seems like it has to be infested terrans. The problem is that the mines take too long to fire, so marines kill the eggs and the mine cancels its firing animation. If only mines fired instantly (like almost every other unit) then zerg's problems would be solved.
Man you were doing fine until you got to the point where you said that eggs were easy to kill. THIS ISNT MECH DUDE. Dont throw the eggs INTO the middle of the marines -_-.
Um... Actually, having a burrowed infestor drop an egg on top a MMMM army is the ultimate troll.
WHY ARE MY MINES KILLING MEEEE! *T reloads replay, sees eggs land into the middle of the bio+mine army triggering widow mines, that you-have-been-trolled feel.
bro, eggs have 70ish HP, either the guy doesn't have much of an army together, or you're spending a lot of energy to troll, lol
It's highly unlikely by the time infestors are out that the guy has the army big enough to kill 3 eggs under 1.5s that result in triggering 3 WMs. Given how upset zergs are now, I highly doubt T would be in danger any time soon, since you pretty much have to build a BO or ling/bling/infestor/muta + burrow research.
3 shots in 2.5 ingame seconds for a muta.. seems a bit too much... At 0.86 attack speed maybe 15+25 (4 shots per muta) would be more appropriate... This basically means that is the spore engages a muta, the muta dies 90% of the time before it can turn around. 5 spores will deter like 30-40 mutas....
On May 14 2013 22:18 Chocobo wrote: It sounded like yet another insult along the lines of "zergs use zero micro and they're all bad". Your point about learning to deal with mines is valid... as of December. It has been close to 5 months and there are no reliable counters to bio mine other than mastering the precise anti-mine micro... something that is simply out of the reach of most players.
Suppose baneling splash damage area was larger and your marine splits had to be flawless to be useful at all. Would you say "look, Marineking can do it, so just get better at it and make sure you don't mess it up!" or would you recognize that it's just not good gameplay at below-pro skill levels?
Wait a second... 5 months? The game has been out for two.
How hard did you try to learn to micro against the mines? How many ZvTs vs 4M did you play? How much do you think is enough?
Marine splitting is hard. Really hard. That's why people came up with the marine split challenge to and spent hours focusing on this single aspect of the game.
Is there something like a minefield-clean challenge? No? Well, then you're not trying hard enough.
On May 14 2013 22:18 Chocobo wrote: It sounded like yet another insult along the lines of "zergs use zero micro and they're all bad". Your point about learning to deal with mines is valid... as of December. It has been close to 5 months and there are no reliable counters to bio mine other than mastering the precise anti-mine micro... something that is simply out of the reach of most players.
Suppose baneling splash damage area was larger and your marine splits had to be flawless to be useful at all. Would you say "look, Marineking can do it, so just get better at it and make sure you don't mess it up!" or would you recognize that it's just not good gameplay at below-pro skill levels?
Wait a second... 5 months? The game has been out for two.
How hard did you try to learn to micro against the mines? How many ZvTs vs 4M did you play? How much do you think is enough?
Marine splitting is hard. Really hard. That's why people came up with the marine split challenge to and spent hours focusing on this single aspect of the game.
Is there something like a minefield-clean challenge? No? Well, then you're not trying hard enough.
thats why most players go Marauder Marine Mine though, marauders soak up those banes like some kind of baneling soaking sponge ;D
and it gives the T time to move back, Im not saying hes right, but what youre saying isnt the full truth.
On May 14 2013 22:18 Chocobo wrote: It sounded like yet another insult along the lines of "zergs use zero micro and they're all bad". Your point about learning to deal with mines is valid... as of December. It has been close to 5 months and there are no reliable counters to bio mine other than mastering the precise anti-mine micro... something that is simply out of the reach of most players.
Suppose baneling splash damage area was larger and your marine splits had to be flawless to be useful at all. Would you say "look, Marineking can do it, so just get better at it and make sure you don't mess it up!" or would you recognize that it's just not good gameplay at below-pro skill levels?
Wait a second... 5 months? The game has been out for two.
How hard did you try to learn to micro against the mines? How many ZvTs vs 4M did you play? How much do you think is enough?
Marine splitting is hard. Really hard. That's why people came up with the marine split challenge to and spent hours focusing on this single aspect of the game.
Is there something like a minefield-clean challenge? No? Well, then you're not trying hard enough.
On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote: in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity. those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off. Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill) Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player)
for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay
Learn to scout, a unit on watchtower, a supply depot/pylon/Overlord at the edges of your base.
Learn to read your minimap every 5 seconds.
Learn to anticipate the drop and counter the drop
Learn to select workers and move them in two different directions before the medivac drops the hellbats, THEN a-move your army towards the droped hellbats and
Learn to kite ranged units to stay out of hellbat range.
Learn the hold command so your units don't wander into widow mine territory
And that's how you defend vs. WM or hellbat drop at the most basic levels.
my main point isnt that I don't know what to do vs WM the point is that the best trade possible for zerg vs mines is 1/4 of the ressources that mines cost the ZvsT matchup just dont feel fair anymore..i think many players would agree with me (even progamer) and all Blizzard is doing is to fix the spore because of ZvsZ? guys ZvZ TvT and PvP are balanced..no matter what blizzard is going to chance!
That's like saying it's unfair for DTs to destroy my army that has no detection!
If you've been following the strategy forum you know that infestors can clear up mines with ALL of their abilities:
infested Terran, 50mp, range 9, spawns egg which hatches into ranged unit for 30s
fungal growth, 75mp, AoE 2.0 radius, range 10, reveals mines and damages them 30 damage.
neural parasite, 100mp, range 7, control widow mine for 15s
And this is in addition to triggers by ling run-in, overseer's unshifted changeling.
I'm sorry but if the Zerg have one unit that can deal with widow mines with nothing but mp, you have nothing to complain about. Some honest opinions, learn-to-play or get a refund and stick with WoL.
The problem is not that there is no counter. The problem is that the counter is significantly more difficult than any other counter to a unit comp in the game. If it was a matter of "don't run 10 clumped banelings over a widow mine" or "just get detection and go around the mines" or "make some of these units which are good against mines, and micro them like this" then it would be great.
But when there's a ball of MMM poking around, using the mines for cover, guarding the mines from mine-clearing suicide lings, etc... it is very difficult to avoid engaging that without being so cost-inefficient that you lose the game. It is far more difficult than splitting marines up, or positioning your units in a particular way.
After 50+ attempts with roach/hydra/viper I doubt this unit comp has any future in ZvT. It's less bad against mines, but it's very weak vs bio when there's no blinding cloud, and cloud is easy for terran to evade.
If there's a counter for this skill level it seems like it has to be infested terrans. The problem is that the mines take too long to fire, so marines kill the eggs and the mine cancels its firing animation. If only mines fired instantly (like almost every other unit) then zerg's problems would be solved.
This post is very true, but to be fair, there is 3 unit in the zerg arsenal that, on paper, can trade with widow mine it has greater range, which are hydralisk, Brood lord and Swarm Host. The problem is that none of them is actually a solution for one because all of this solution force you to sacrifice your mobility by a lot and that when medivacs boost come into play. hydralisk kinda force you to go for roach Hydra (into viper/infestor) which is not totally bad but not especially good either, SH needs to be on high number to trigger the mines but they are not mobile enough and takes a lot of supply and BL are just too slow.
Yesterday's game between JD vs Theognis kinda showed this problems, both for roach hydra on Daybreak and muta ling on Akilon, first game he did trade pretty well during the game, but once terran is maxed roach hydra just get roasted in direct fight, and on Akilon JD was in a good position, maxed in 5/3 ultralisk and then BL + infestor but that's when the mobility of the terran army cames into played and just never engaged until he was sure to win.
Zergs complaining about drops being hard to deal with should try playing PvT to get a bit of perspective on the matter. As a Protoss player, I feel so jealous when I see a Terran drop the Zerg's main, and speedlings are there within 2-3 seconds despite being in the middle of the map as the medivac flew in. Mutas are just icing on this particular cake.
On May 14 2013 22:59 Toadvine wrote: Zergs complaining about drops being hard to deal with should try playing PvT to get a bit of perspective on the matter. As a Protoss player, I feel so jealous when I see a Terran drop the Zerg's main, and speedlings are there within 2-3 seconds despite being in the middle of the map as the medivac flew in. Mutas are just icing on this particular cake.
I can say the same thing about Warpgates and Recall.
On May 14 2013 22:59 Toadvine wrote: Zergs complaining about drops being hard to deal with should try playing PvT to get a bit of perspective on the matter. As a Protoss player, I feel so jealous when I see a Terran drop the Zerg's main, and speedlings are there within 2-3 seconds despite being in the middle of the map as the medivac flew in. Mutas are just icing on this particular cake.
I can say the same thing about Warpgates and Recall.
All you zergs and protoss make me so jealous with your drop defense, all i can do is build 4-5 turrets in every base :D
On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote: in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity. those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off. Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill) Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player)
for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay
Learn to scout, a unit on watchtower, a supply depot/pylon/Overlord at the edges of your base.
Learn to read your minimap every 5 seconds.
Learn to anticipate the drop and counter the drop
Learn to select workers and move them in two different directions before the medivac drops the hellbats, THEN a-move your army towards the droped hellbats and
Learn to kite ranged units to stay out of hellbat range.
Learn the hold command so your units don't wander into widow mine territory
And that's how you defend vs. WM or hellbat drop at the most basic levels.
my main point isnt that I don't know what to do vs WM the point is that the best trade possible for zerg vs mines is 1/4 of the ressources that mines cost the ZvsT matchup just dont feel fair anymore..i think many players would agree with me (even progamer) and all Blizzard is doing is to fix the spore because of ZvsZ? guys ZvZ TvT and PvP are balanced..no matter what blizzard is going to chance!
That's like saying it's unfair for DTs to destroy my army that has no detection!
If you've been following the strategy forum you know that infestors can clear up mines with ALL of their abilities:
infested Terran, 50mp, range 9, spawns egg which hatches into ranged unit for 30s
fungal growth, 75mp, AoE 2.0 radius, range 10, reveals mines and damages them 30 damage.
neural parasite, 100mp, range 7, control widow mine for 15s
And this is in addition to triggers by ling run-in, overseer's unshifted changeling.
I'm sorry but if the Zerg have one unit that can deal with widow mines with nothing but mp, you have nothing to complain about. Some honest opinions, learn-to-play or get a refund and stick with WoL.
The problem is not that there is no counter. The problem is that the counter is significantly more difficult than any other counter to a unit comp in the game. If it was a matter of "don't run 10 clumped banelings over a widow mine" or "just get detection and go around the mines" or "make some of these units which are good against mines, and micro them like this" then it would be great.
But when there's a ball of MMM poking around, using the mines for cover, guarding the mines from mine-clearing suicide lings, etc... it is very difficult to avoid engaging that without being so cost-inefficient that you lose the game. It is far more difficult than splitting marines up, or positioning your units in a particular way.
After 50+ attempts with roach/hydra/viper I doubt this unit comp has any future in ZvT. It's less bad against mines, but it's very weak vs bio when there's no blinding cloud, and cloud is easy for terran to evade.
If there's a counter for this skill level it seems like it has to be infested terrans. The problem is that the mines take too long to fire, so marines kill the eggs and the mine cancels its firing animation. If only mines fired instantly (like almost every other unit) then zerg's problems would be solved.
This post is very true, but to be fair, there is 3 unit in the zerg arsenal that, on paper, can trade with widow mine it has greater range, which are hydralisk, Brood lord and Swarm Host. The problem is that none of them is actually a solution for one because all of this solution force you to sacrifice your mobility by a lot and that when medivacs boost come into play. hydralisk kinda force you to go for roach Hydra (into viper/infestor) which is not totally bad but not especially good either, SH needs to be on high number to trigger the mines but they are not mobile enough and takes a lot of supply and BL are just too slow.
Yesterday's game between JD vs Theognis kinda showed this problems, both for roach hydra on Daybreak and muta ling on Akilon, first game he did trade pretty well during the game, but once terran is maxed roach hydra just get roasted in direct fight, and on Akilon JD was in a good position, maxed in 5/3 ultralisk and then BL + infestor but that's when the mobility of the terran army cames into played and just never engaged until he was sure to win.
Ultras and roaches are both efficient when taking mineshots and then taking them out. You can't avoid the hit, but you can often just tank through them. Then there are also mutalisks which can abuse the 2second activation time and snipe spread out unprotected mines before they go off (I think enough roaches can do so too). Then there is chain fungal on clumped mines and ITs which take roughly as long to regenerate the energy for as it takes the mine to reload. And zerglings, which you can sacrifice one and then pick off the mine efficiently (75/25 vs 25/0). Really, what's hard to deal with is not the mine, it's the protected mine. Or more accuratly, the bio-protected mine, because many of the mine counters are also good/OK vs mechplay. Or, even more acurately, the marine protected mine. Because marines force banelings in the midgame, which is kind of the only unit you absolutly don't want to play when there are mines as zerg. And it's not imba or anything. It is just a little stale, as you hardly have any choices in a macrogame (at least it seems like that, since the proscene is nearly exclusively playing like that when facing bio, but maybe we'll be surprised).
On May 14 2013 22:59 Toadvine wrote: Zergs complaining about drops being hard to deal with should try playing PvT to get a bit of perspective on the matter. As a Protoss player, I feel so jealous when I see a Terran drop the Zerg's main, and speedlings are there within 2-3 seconds despite being in the middle of the map as the medivac flew in. Mutas are just icing on this particular cake.
It's not the problem with the drop itself, but the conjunction of the threat of drops force muta ling and the strenght of bio+mines in direct fight, especially against bio+mines. You kind of has to go into mutaling to respond to the drop, and then the endless bio mines pushes start and if you're good you can not die from this but you'll never be cost efficient against it, until Ultralisk you can't even go beyond the middle of the map.
To be honest I would love to see the Swarm Host been redone by Blizzard, makes it stronger in mid game so it can be more useful against terran and weaker in late game (takes more supply for example?) so it doesn't become the new Brood Lord in late game ZvP.
On May 14 2013 22:59 Toadvine wrote: Zergs complaining about drops being hard to deal with should try playing PvT to get a bit of perspective on the matter. As a Protoss player, I feel so jealous when I see a Terran drop the Zerg's main, and speedlings are there within 2-3 seconds despite being in the middle of the map as the medivac flew in. Mutas are just icing on this particular cake.
I can say the same thing about Warpgates and Recall.
All you zergs and protoss make me so jealous with your drop defense, all i can do is build 4-5 turrets in every base :D
Obviously counter-dropping is the way to go. Real men don't need to defend.
On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote: in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity. those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off. Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill)
What you are describing is exactly how terran players felt for most of WOL, having to micro their ass off against any kind of AOE while their opponents had it much easier.
And it wasn't a good thing then either. I'm in favor of balancing the game, not giving each race equal time of being too strong.
According to Blizzard the winrates are looking good right now. It's not like the AOE of other races ceased to exist once widow mines were introduced, marines are as fragile as they ever were. The difference is that terrans have microed (or at least tried to) every part of their army for the last 2-3 years, where as zergs are only now starting to learn.
God I agree with this statement an unbelievable amount.
On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote: in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity. those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off. Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill)
What you are describing is exactly how terran players felt for most of WOL, having to micro their ass off against any kind of AOE while their opponents had it much easier.
And it wasn't a good thing then either. I'm in favor of balancing the game, not giving each race equal time of being too strong.
According to Blizzard the winrates are looking good right now. It's not like the AOE of other races ceased to exist once widow mines were introduced, marines are as fragile as they ever were. The difference is that terrans have microed (or at least tried to) every part of their army for the last 2-3 years, where as zergs are only now starting to learn.
God I agree with this statement an unbelievable amount.
Too true, queue the QQ (Had to say it. ) I was one of the many Terran who belly ached about the need to master bio splits. Heh.
What people forget about mines, is that if they are cheap, they are not free, and they still cost supply. Which means that the bioball that goes with them is considerably smaller, and will take friendly fire from the mines. So I'm not that sure that trades are that cost inefficient, especially if you're not too hesitant to engage (which is in my opinion the worst thing you can do, because you'll eat mines hits without them doing FF). If you engage on creep and flank, I'm pretty sure you can get good engagements regardless of mines, because terran won't be able to kite and will eat the mine shots too. Setting flanks with speedlings doesn't seem impossible. Also someone talked about the JD vs theognis game on Akilon. I'm sorry to say that but Jaedong did a poor job at defending the drops, and that's what cost him the game (which was still kind of close for a while regardless..), so not a really good example.
looks like the upgraded ling style of zvz could get even better.
I don't think a mine nerf is necessary. terrans are still losing to roach/baneling timings even with mines, due to lack of siege tanks. Any kind of mine nerf will make these builds much stronger, probably undefendable without tanks. on the other hand hand bio-tank + mine could be pretty cool to see vs muta/ling/baneling. hellbats I'm less sure about. The amount of damage hellbat drops can do even sheen you see them coming is pretty absurd.
I think that even though there is a mass of zerg complainers crying about widow mines right now, that there wont be so many in the future once the average zerg learns to deal with it. IMO mines are not that reliable of a unit and terran players are basically counting on their opponents to be bad at dealing with them. Once the mine is figured out I dont think we will see it as much anymore because the success of any widow mine takes a lot of luck with how random they are. I still feel marine tank medivac is the strongest composition for the midgame. Cutting out mines gives you more tanks and more marines, and as everyone knows, marines are the best unit in the game. I just dont think this mine bio style will last.
so spores' now 3-shot mutas regardless of defense upgrades? I feel that should definately deter zerg players from believing their only option is to go mass muta ball
On May 15 2013 00:24 stratmatt wrote: I think that even though there is a mass of zerg complainers crying about widow mines right now, that there wont be so many in the future once the average zerg learns to deal with it. IMO mines are not that reliable of a unit and terran players are basically counting on their opponents to be bad at dealing with them. Once the mine is figured out I dont think we will see it as much anymore because the success of any widow mine takes a lot of luck with how random they are. I still feel marine tank medivac is the strongest composition for the midgame. Cutting out mines gives you more tanks and more marines, and as everyone knows, marines are the best unit in the game. I just dont think this mine bio style will last.
Tanks are a poor substitute. They cost too much gas which cuts into your upgrades/marauder production, and pure marine/tank gets absolutely crushed against HOTS ultralisks whereas in WOL you could fight ultra armies to some extent with it. Vipers also obviously counter tanks very hard, you get blinding clouded if you try to turtle and eaten alive by ultras if you try to move out in the open.
Mines, hellbats and even lategame thors and ravens are all much better support for bio TvZ.
Spores don't deflect muta balls, that wasn't the point of this patch. This patch means zergs will be safer in the early game, which means they can now use other strategies other than quick muta, because of not having to spend so much minerals on queens/spores and such.
Also, people saying zergs can't micro and terrans are oh so good at it because of zerg only a-moving are retarded. Play a game as zerg yourself, see how it suits you. Don't even think for a moment zerg in zvt is any less micro intensive than terran.
On May 15 2013 00:31 Greendotz wrote: so spores' now 3-shot mutas regardless of defense upgrades? I feel that should definately deter zerg players from believing their only option is to go mass muta ball
Not really, Mutas allow you to siege your oponent in two bases while you get the third. Mutas still give you map control, and if the other guy uses 8 drones and 1200 mine to build spores, good for you.
This change just allow the other zerg to prepare to counter the muta ball with a shitton of infestors and hidras, but ling bling destroy hidras so hard...
Horrible change imo. It won't actually change much in terms of playstyle but only dragging out the game. The power of mutas was always to be able to contain the opponent and prevent them from taking third/forth which is by no way altered now. While it helps some agaisnt harrasing and prevent the muta player from baseracing i don't feel there is any difference. Other styles than mutas was still being used (while rarely) and I think they will see more prevalance regardless of the change to spore or not. In fact the game between goswser and revival in wcs featured roach hydra vs roach swarm host.
On the other hand the downside is that games take a lot longer than they should with the losing player dragging out the game forever. Just had a zvz where I killed of his mutas and contained him on 2 base and he just build mass spores so I can't kill him. had to wait another 10 min while im 6 base vs two to max out on ultras to kill him. Imo this is the only change the spore buff acomplished, preventing the winning player to end the game fast.
Also I never found muta vs muta a bad or boring matchup. I really enjoy it and find it a lot more fun then the roach wars in WoL and other styles will always be experienced upon even if one is very dominant.
On May 15 2013 01:03 Incand wrote: Horrible change imo. It won't actually change much in terms of playstyle but only dragging out the game. The power of mutas was always to be able to contain the opponent and prevent them from taking third/forth which is by no way altered now. While it helps some agaisnt harrasing and prevent the muta player from baseracing i don't feel there is any difference. Other styles than mutas was still being used (while rarely) and I think they will see more prevalance regardless of the change to spore or not. In fact the game between goswser and revival in wcs featured roach hydra vs roach swarm host.
On the other hand the downside is that games take a lot longer than they should with the losing player dragging out the game forever. Just had a zvz where I killed of his mutas and contained him on 2 base and he just build mass spores so I can't kill him. had to wait another 10 min while im 6 base vs two to max out on ultras to kill him. Imo this is the only change the spore buff acomplished, preventing the winning player to end the game fast.
Also I never found muta vs muta a bad or boring matchup. I really enjoy it and find it a lot more fun then the roach wars in WoL and other styles will always be experienced upon even if one is very dominant.
You can do a roach expand or a 1-1 zergling expand of 2bases against someone who invest into a lair, a spire and mutas. This gives you a reasonable 3rd, which if you either use drop creep, creep spreading and the ability to move spores should be able to spore up. And from there on it is much easier with the new spores to defend this base and maybe not even go hydras or infestors immidiatly (like roach/spore/queen). Of course this might not work out like that. But stuff like that will definatly be stronger now and maybe become viable.
I think the biggest problem of current muta wars right now is not that it is boring or coinflippy or something like that. (though I have never drawn too much fun from those games, neither in WoL, nor now) The biggest problem is that a player with a slight advantage in base and/or muta count just wins and the other player can't do anything about it. It's the raw comparison of mutalisk amounts that decides games and which is bad. (not to mention that we have like 10 units now... it would be quite a shame if 3 of them would be all that are viable)
I would just say change the muta speed back to normal so they cant dodge storms soo easily ^^ and they cant move fast around sniping ur 4th workers to main workers -.-
On May 14 2013 19:53 lue wrote: This really wont change my ZvZ at all.
Guess I'll be stuck on 20% winratio in ZvT for another few balance patches aswell since apparently the game needs gasfree tier 3 splashdamage units that are nigh invincible.
without muta's, drops are too strong. Then I wonder why zergs don't use spores and spines like at the end of wol. They seem to forget them these days. Spores together with 2-3 hydras and good overlord placement = bye drops.
To answer this, the zerg army is already weaker than terrans/protoss, constantly having to surrender units to locate them in each of the bases as drop-defense(3 hydras per base, 4 bases~ thats 24 supply) is in the long run not viable at all, as for the static defense, well for a single hellbat drop, 2x hbs+ medivac, you'll need 2 spores to kill the medivac in a reasonable amount of time, and around 3 spines for the actual hellbats.
This setup alone will cost you 450 minerals whereas the terran already invested less than that to even make the drop in the first place, namely 300 minerals + 100 gas.
I don't even mind the medivac boost, but the hellbats are just dumb.
So 1 hellbat per medivac would be the sollution?
No definitly not, the hellbat is still a "medium" unit and that is how it should stay, 2 should fit in the medivacs.
I would, personally, change it in a manner similiar to how banelings are produced. Have the terran build hellions (thus increasing the initial amount of hellions made), then upon building an armory have the hellbats be converted from hellbats for an additional 25m 25g cost, or why not 0m 50g.
A flat 100m0g cost for a unit of that caliber is just plain wrong.
And to the mouthbreathers who seems to think zergs doesn't micro, try playing zerg properly.
Disapprove. The problem with ZvZ at the moment isn't the strength of static defences. In fact, Spore Crawlers were already quite strong against Mutalisks.
The problem is the fact that you have to counter Mutalisk play through turtling up and bascically ceding map control and presence to your opponent.
The answer obviously lies within the Corruptor, a unit that is seldom used in ZvZ due to its high cost, uselessness against ground units and mediocre speed. It should either be redesigned from the ground-up to better counter Mutalisks or be removed in favour of bringing back the Scourge.
Corruptors are also terrible in matchups like ZvT and ZvP where in the former they are now seldom used because Ultralisks have been greatly buffed and the most commoon TvZ style is bio + widow mines which can shred Brood Lords. In ZvP they are also very inconsistent at sniping Colossi and often a small micro blunder or not having enough of them can be the difference between winning or losing a game.
So many silly opinions regarding a very good incremental change that should promote diversity in a mirror matchup. Balance changes really bring out the worst in TL (although of course there are many reasonable people posting here too).
On May 14 2013 09:34 heyoka wrote: I'm down for anything that increases the number of viable strategies so if it makes gameplay more diverse, then good job.
Hehe until zvz turns into mass infestor/swarmhost/broodlord battles then you might think differently .
On May 14 2013 22:59 Toadvine wrote: Zergs complaining about drops being hard to deal with should try playing PvT to get a bit of perspective on the matter. As a Protoss player, I feel so jealous when I see a Terran drop the Zerg's main, and speedlings are there within 2-3 seconds despite being in the middle of the map as the medivac flew in. Mutas are just icing on this particular cake.
I can say the same thing about Warpgates and Recall.
All you zergs and protoss make me so jealous with your drop defense, all i can do is build 4-5 turrets in every base :D
Obviously counter-dropping is the way to go. Real men don't need to defend.
SCV can just repair stuff until the army gets back, its way more manly that way.
I mean, I'm not sure this is the perfect solution to the problem but right now I'll take ANYTHING that might even slightly help the horror that is the ZvZ mu right now. I guess we will see if it helps! I'm definitely gonna give it a try!
Hellbats costing gas to convert would be an interesting concept, whether or not it would be fair / work in practice would remain to be seen.
The only way the spore change works out is if...
It allows you to take an earlier 3rd and defend it from initial ling/muta pushes...and allows you to build up enough army to push out before the muta player has so many bases they can tech switch and be less cost effective but just throw so much stuff at you that you die eventually.
At the end of the day I don't see it working the way they think as roach/hydra infestor armies (especially with fungal being a hard to land projectile), simply lack the mobiility for you to ever hope to get off 3 bases. As spores once the muta player gets to 15+ will basically instantly melt to muta pressure.
I do see it doing what some have mentioned and allowing bad players to build many spores to draw a game out longer then it should be.
I think players were probably getting closer to solve Muta vs Muta zvz then this change will facilitate but will see soon enough.
The only thing that concerns me about their recent balance ideals is that there seems to be a heavier focus on is it fun to watch and not is it fun to play. They seem to be getting desperate in trying to catch riot which is a bad way to develop a game long term. To prove that statement, largely ZvT right now is the same compositions smashing against one another ever game. It's however far less boring to watch then ZvZ is. So they don't see ZvT as an issue where they do see ZvZ as an issue, hence a heavier focus on watch ability rather then true balance and in game fun.
I must be the only wacko out there that actually thinks zvz is enjoyable to play and fun to watch. I enjoyed it in wol too, but I thought roaches were much more boring than ling muta.
I wonder how the game would be affected if hydras' air attack had some splash damage on it. That could potentially solve the muta problem, and give some added help vs protoss air as well. I don't think it would break anything.
I'm in the minority of players, but I'd rather see frequent and significant changes to the game to try to balance it, even if something is changed back after two weeks. Or at least do it on an open beta. Why not try out a lot of things and find out what's good for the game and what isn't? It's more fun too if the game is always fresh. Of course, it isn't good for tournaments.
One other thing that seems like a potential balance problem to me- the Leenock style mass upgraded ling opening vs protoss. I've been winning ZvP very consistently lately, and it's so easy to use. I have complete map control, it's easy to deny the protoss his third base no matter what tech he opens with, and it's extremely safe. Even a really heavy zealot opening struggles with that huge amount of upgraded lings.
Then once P is finally ready to move out, I have full knowledge of his unit comp. Ultras will be good against most of them (heavy zealots, sentries, even colossus) or I can instead make a flock of mutas if there are too many immortals or voidrays, and basetrade with muta/ling. Maybe I'm facing bad protosses who aren't preparing well... not playing P much I don't know how hard it is to deal with the lings.
The only thing that concerns me about their recent balance ideals is that there seems to be a heavier focus on is it fun to watch and not is it fun to play. They seem to be getting desperate in trying to catch riot which is a bad way to develop a game long term. To prove that statement, largely ZvT right now is the same compositions smashing against one another ever game. It's however far less boring to watch then ZvZ is. So they don't see ZvT as an issue where they do see ZvZ as an issue, hence a heavier focus on watch ability rather then true balance and in game fun.
Quite frankly medivac boost is really fun watching at. And so is the viper. Also no problems with widow mines, okay swarm hosts are kinda boring unit from a viewer pov.
Also hellbats should cost 400/300, require fusion core and 2 medivacs to carry one hellbat...
And what is this obsession with gas cost? Sure make hellbats cost 75/25 just like roaches. That makes it better for you, right? Minus that it boosts them with bio (bio generally isn't exactly gas starved), and nerfs them with mech. But well, I guess that is solved by also increasing its mineral cost...
On May 14 2013 09:31 heyoka wrote: From the Blizzard blog. Making a new thread to restart the discussion since the discussed balance change is now live, and to keep it to this and not the oracle changes or whatever.
A little over a week ago, we requested your help in testing a few proposed balance tweaks for StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm by playing with each change on our new Balance Test Map. After reviewing your thoughts, gathering pro player feedback, examining ladder stats, and watching lots of tournament matches, we're ready to move forward with a balance update.
Today, we’ll be implementing the following balance change for StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm multiplayer:
Zerg
Spore Crawler damage increased from 15 + 15 vs. biological to 15 + 30 vs. biological If you'd like to read more on the reasoning behind this change, feel free to check out David Kim's recent forum post, in which he provided his team's thoughts on StarCraft II balance after reviewing test map results and feedback.
As always, thank you for play testing the changes we proposed with the most recent Balance Test Map. The extensive testing and quality of feedback you've provided have allowed us to make this call, and we look forward to sharing more of our thoughts on StarCraft II balance with you in the future.
Really dislike this patch... Now mutas isn't even a viable option as the other player will just spread creep and spam spores everywhere. Instead of forcing builds down our throats, maybe just have players explore other options... Hydra,roach,infestor,queen,ultra for late game works just fine, Especially with normal spores as they are. I don't even see muta viable anymore in zvz... Another bad nerf for zerg. Yes nerf because mutas are useless in zvz now..
On May 14 2013 09:31 heyoka wrote: From the Blizzard blog. Making a new thread to restart the discussion since the discussed balance change is now live, and to keep it to this and not the oracle changes or whatever.
Heart of the Swarm Balance Update – May 13, 2013
A little over a week ago, we requested your help in testing a few proposed balance tweaks for StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm by playing with each change on our new Balance Test Map. After reviewing your thoughts, gathering pro player feedback, examining ladder stats, and watching lots of tournament matches, we're ready to move forward with a balance update.
Today, we’ll be implementing the following balance change for StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm multiplayer:
Zerg
Spore Crawler damage increased from 15 + 15 vs. biological to 15 + 30 vs. biological If you'd like to read more on the reasoning behind this change, feel free to check out David Kim's recent forum post, in which he provided his team's thoughts on StarCraft II balance after reviewing test map results and feedback.
As always, thank you for play testing the changes we proposed with the most recent Balance Test Map. The extensive testing and quality of feedback you've provided have allowed us to make this call, and we look forward to sharing more of our thoughts on StarCraft II balance with you in the future.
Really dislike this patch... Now mutas isn't even a viable option as the other player will just spread creep and spam spores everywhere. Instead of forcing builds down our throats, maybe just have players explore other options... Hydra,roach,infestor,queen,ultra for late game works just fine, Especially with normal spores as they are. I don't even see muta viable anymore in zvz... Another bad nerf for zerg. Yes nerf because mutas are useless in zvz now..
thats like saying hellions arent viable after queen range buff :/
On May 15 2013 02:11 Nerski wrote: The only thing that concerns me about their recent balance ideals is that there seems to be a heavier focus on is it fun to watch and not is it fun to play. They seem to be getting desperate in trying to catch riot which is a bad way to develop a game long term. To prove that statement, largely ZvT right now is the same compositions smashing against one another ever game. It's however far less boring to watch then ZvZ is. So they don't see ZvT as an issue where they do see ZvZ as an issue, hence a heavier focus on watch ability rather then true balance and in game fun.
I dunno about that, they're not losing out to LoL because SC2 is less watchable, LoL's popularity is down to it being easy to play, free and the client directing players to tournament streams. Welcome to the future, people like easy games here :/.
I personally don't find muta styles fun to play, its pretty simplistic micro and with the stacking and bounce they scale too well (they're balanced in other matchups despite this). Both as a player and as a spectator I'd rather any ultimate composition required more than 2 unit types and clicking on the thing you want to die.
While I approve of the change I feel this isn't really going to solve the problem, there's still a critical mass of mutas at which they'll one shot spores, negating them regardless of damage, unless theres a big field of the things... Muta's still shut down that third base hard. I'm going to continue to go for ling bling into pre muta roach all in until I'm sure things are changing.
Maybe if air units couldn't stack up so tightly things would be different but then things like the thor splash and pheonix stacking vs muta balls get all out of whack and need looking at.... yeah lets forget I ever said that :D
I don't think this spore change is directed at late mid game to late game at all. Once a flock of mutas has been achieved this buff will do nothing. Which is good. The problem currently was that muta survivability was to high and players could harass and achieve that flock before the opponent could really get a mobile AA army. This will open that gap up a little more so players can safely get infestor/queen or infestor/hydra.
Also I don't think Blizzard is making these changes at all for spectators. The muta vs muta is far to popular right now because it is much easier to build a spire and harass then defend with infestor/hydra. I don't think it was impossible to go non muta but it did seem harder to do. With this spore buff hopefully it will be a little easier to hold of mutas in time to stop the big flock.
And by no means will this stop people from going mutas and if you think it will you are clearly not thinking at all. Once you establish a certain amount of mutas spores won't do anything. This is clearly just a mid game AA buff that is all.
I am glad Blizzard is taking it slow because the game feels pretty balanced right now. Obviously this is just my opinion so take it for what it is.
On May 15 2013 02:11 Nerski wrote: The only thing that concerns me about their recent balance ideals is that there seems to be a heavier focus on is it fun to watch and not is it fun to play. They seem to be getting desperate in trying to catch riot which is a bad way to develop a game long term. To prove that statement, largely ZvT right now is the same compositions smashing against one another ever game. It's however far less boring to watch then ZvZ is. So they don't see ZvT as an issue where they do see ZvZ as an issue, hence a heavier focus on watch ability rather then true balance and in game fun.
I dunno about that, they're not losing out to LoL because SC2 is less watchable, LoL's popularity is down to it being easy to play, free and the client directing players to tournament streams. Welcome to the future, people like easy games here :/.
I wouldn't deny for a moment what you said isn't true as far as why SC2 isn't as popular as league. I would counter that while that may be true all of blizzards language and actions, would at least in appearance make it sound like their greatest concern is improving what the game looks like to a viewer. This based on them getting involved with WCS, buying IPL, and every balance talk has lots of 'this is fun to watch' 'this isn't fun to watch' kind of language now used.
I'd believe it was less about watch ability if say for instance, with people complaining across the board about hellbat drops that something was at least tested on their latest test map. Whether any change actually happened it'd at least show it was a thought crossing their mind. Instead the last round of balance changes were stupid...
*Oracale speed because why? it'd look awesome seeing someone abuse the hell out of a fast oracle?
*Burrow change why? because players could do neat fun to watch things with super early burrow timings?
*Spore change why? because ZvZ is boring to watch...only change to go in and thus far if anything it seems to have made the whole muta vs muta thing worse. Which remains to be for sure seen but thus far it seems like a lack luster adjustment.
The two that didn't go in basically seemed like a dumb idea to most people from the onset balance wise. Blizzard was more then happy to try them out on what basis? The only one I can think of is trying to make 'cool things happen' that are 'fun to watch'. Even if it'd make playing the game absolutely a horrific experience.
On May 15 2013 02:11 Nerski wrote: The only thing that concerns me about their recent balance ideals is that there seems to be a heavier focus on is it fun to watch and not is it fun to play. They seem to be getting desperate in trying to catch riot which is a bad way to develop a game long term. To prove that statement, largely ZvT right now is the same compositions smashing against one another ever game. It's however far less boring to watch then ZvZ is. So they don't see ZvT as an issue where they do see ZvZ as an issue, hence a heavier focus on watch ability rather then true balance and in game fun.
I dunno about that, they're not losing out to LoL because SC2 is less watchable, LoL's popularity is down to it being easy to play, free and the client directing players to tournament streams. Welcome to the future, people like easy games here :/.
I wouldn't deny for a moment what you said isn't true as far as why SC2 isn't as popular as league. I would counter that while that may be true all of blizzards language and actions, would at least in appearance make it sound like their greatest concern is improving what the game looks like to a viewer. This based on them getting involved with WCS, buying IPL, and every balance talk has lots of 'this is fun to watch' 'this isn't fun to watch' kind of language now used.
I'd believe it was less about watch ability if say for instance, with people complaining across the board about hellbat drops that something was at least tested on their latest test map. Whether any change actually happened it'd at least show it was a thought crossing their mind. Instead the last round of balance changes were stupid...
*Oracale speed because why? it'd look awesome seeing someone abuse the hell out of a fast oracle?
*Burrow change why? because players could do neat fun to watch things with super early burrow timings?
*Spore change why? because ZvZ is boring to watch...only change to go in and thus far if anything it seems to have made the whole muta vs muta thing worse. Which remains to be for sure seen but thus far it seems like a lack luster adjustment.
The two that didn't go in basically seemed like a dumb idea to most people from the onset balance wise. Blizzard was more then happy to try them out on what basis? The only one I can think of is trying to make 'cool things happen' that are 'fun to watch'. Even if it'd make playing the game absolutely a horrific experience.
Let's all be honest here, playing BW was that exact horrific experience. I hated playing BW because of how stupidly hard it was to attack with my 50 lings, and how much effort it took to just mine minerals and build units. Yet BW was very fun to watch and it thrived because of that. I don't think any change Blizzard could ever make would make SC2 less fun to play than BW. So I agree with their focus on making the game fun to watch, because I can always make the game fun to play for myself, by building fun units even if it means staying in lower leagues.
As long as it doesn't go back to straight roach/hydra/festor wars. Who knows maybe we'll see some swarm hosts since the spores do more damage to overseers now as well
On May 14 2013 09:34 heyoka wrote: I'm down for anything that increases the number of viable strategies so if it makes gameplay more diverse, then good job.
On May 14 2013 09:34 heyoka wrote: I'm down for anything that increases the number of viable strategies so if it makes gameplay more diverse, then good job.
On May 15 2013 07:13 Slayer- wrote: not a fan, i'd of liked +1 muta armor -1 attack. but it is a careful balance.
edit; i one base muta a lot, so this weakens such a cheese.
edit 2: bring back scourge :D
Armor is much more valuable than attack. Mutalisks would survive a lot more easily (24 vs 20 shots against Marine and 14 vs 10 against Stalker, both on equal upgrades), but their damage output wouldn't be reduced by that much (just one more shot to kill a worker or a Marine, 2 more shots to kill a Stalker).
My conclusion is that it changes way too much outside of ZvZ.
On May 15 2013 06:32 Nikoras wrote: As long as it doesn't go back to straight roach/hydra/festor wars. Who knows maybe we'll see some swarm hosts since the spores do more damage to overseers now as well
Overseer vision: 11 Spore Crawler range: 7
The only change this will make is that people will no longer dive into bases with 20~ mutas as eagerly.
Oh and for myself, it'll make my matches longer, but my overall strategy will remain the same.
i'm sort of neutral on this. if it allows you to tech past mutas behind your spores then i guess it's good. i'm not convinced it'll do that. i think it'll just delay the inevitable for the person with less mutas. my only concern is that if the stronger spores actually do their job of letting the non-muta player survive to tech to something else, it'll kill mutas in zvz and we'll end up with a different forced composition. but that might just be the nature of zvz till the end of time. who knows. that's just my gut feeling.
the best thing about this patch is that this is the only change. i highly approve of this careful approach. there are some things i think will inevitably be nerfed or tweaked somehow (helbats, free-to-use medivac boost, possibly void rays, etc) but from what i've seen aren't so bad as to break the game right now and i full support them giving players a chance to work it out for themselves.
On May 15 2013 09:30 StarscreamG1 wrote: WHY don't aditional biological damage to corrupters?
Mutas are never going to engage corruptors anyway. No one is going to build a bunch of corruptors to sit at their bases instead of spores. The same goes for why hydras getting the buff doesn't help. The biggest problem with not playing mutas is never that you can't win muta vs corruptor/hydra engagements, it's that you can never leave your base or it'll get destroyed by the mutas. The spore buffs make harassing much more dangerous, and means if you put 4-5 at a base, the muta player will lose quite a few mutas attacking into it. It might then make hydra play more viable since now they have the option to leave their base instead of sit in it till they lose.
so, any experiences yet? So far I have been having decent success with roach/spine/queen 3base defenses against mutas on this patch. (only few games) - it's more that I don't have a clue what to do afterwards (roach/hydra into swarm host?!?)
While personally I'm a huge fan of the current state of ZvZ, i understand that not everyone shares the same passion for the matchup. While i feel like this change won't do much for the muta-centric mid-late game, it will definitely make an opening for anti-muta timings. Generally the biggest problem with facing mutalisk play when not using mutalisks is the difficulty in taking expansions past your natural. This is still going to be the case with this change, but now that counter-attacks with mutas are an impossibility in the midgame, hydra all-ins will gain a lot of strength. It will be interesting to see how the metagame develops over the next week or two.
On May 15 2013 17:00 Big J wrote: so, any experiences yet? So far I have been having decent success with roach/spine/queen 3base defenses against mutas on this patch. (only few games) - it's more that I don't have a clue what to do afterwards (roach/hydra into swarm host?!?)
As non-zerg, so maybe not viable, but:
Roach-hydra push from 3-bases, while spores prevent him from doing a base-trade scenario? And I guess the roach-hydra's should win from muta's in a straight up fight, and ling/baneling shouldn't do too much against that either, unless he has very good baneling connections.
Or nydus queens + swarmhosts + drones to somewhere near his third/natural (with enough support to keep muta's away until drones can make spores), setup a nice base there and kill his third.
On May 14 2013 09:37 GoodSirTets wrote: I don't think static defense was the answer people needed to muta's :p I would have liked to see some sort of hydra anti air buff or even a corrupter change, but I guess they don't want to touch the non mirror matchups
That wouldn't work because then all air for all other races would also be affected. Thus defeating the point of a small patch.
On May 15 2013 17:05 Humfluxx wrote: Just nerf the mutas! really!
No, that is exactly what this community has been asking Blizzard for years not to do.
Nobody asked Blizzard to imrpove the unit that dramatically from their good balance in WoL without reducing their strength as a very strong fighting unit. Blizzard is just closing their eyes towards what the real problem is: a fantastic harassing unit cannot be a fantastic fighting unit at the same time. That's just insanely bad game design.
On May 15 2013 17:05 Humfluxx wrote: Just nerf the mutas! really!
No, that is exactly what this community has been asking Blizzard for years not to do.
Nobody asked Blizzard to imrpove the unit that dramatically from their good balance in WoL without reducing their strength as a very strong fighting unit. Blizzard is just closing their eyes towards what the real problem is: a fantastic harassing unit cannot be a fantastic fighting unit at the same time. That's just insanely bad game design.
There are still issues with nerfing it straight up, but something needs to be done to the muta. As I see it, mutas are balanced in ZvT vs bio, but are kind of stupid in all the other MUs(aswell as vs mech). Maybe not OP, as I see it in vP they are just a really good tech switch, since now storms don't really counter them that well anymore. ZvZ is ofc just in a really strange/silly state atm and vs mech the mecher can't really kill the mutas unless they are clumped and fly over 3 WMs.
Tech switching into them now just seems so strong to me, since before they were on a timer and at a certain point you'd have counters out that would maybe not outright kill them, but dmg them enough that they were wasted supply for a while. Now it just piles on unless you are able to force them to *have to* take a bad fight that they can't retreat from.
I like the idea of them as a harass unit, I like the reaper/muta regen as it gives the units some utility through the game and lets good players showcase their micro. It's just stupid to have a harass orientated unit as a straight up good combat unit. Compared to the hellbat drops, the medivac is the harass unit there, as I could've dropped any other unit for the harass, hellbats are just currently the most effective(and medivacs are a support unit, which I feel the mutas are vs bio, primarily sniping medivacs)..
On May 15 2013 17:05 Humfluxx wrote: Just nerf the mutas! really!
No, that is exactly what this community has been asking Blizzard for years not to do.
Nobody asked Blizzard to imrpove the unit that dramatically from their good balance in WoL without reducing their strength as a very strong fighting unit. Blizzard is just closing their eyes towards what the real problem is: a fantastic harassing unit cannot be a fantastic fighting unit at the same time. That's just insanely bad game design.
There are still issues with nerfing it straight up, but something needs to be done to the muta. As I see it, mutas are balanced in ZvT vs bio, but are kind of stupid in all the other MUs(aswell as vs mech). Maybe not OP, as I see it in vP they are just a really good tech switch, since now storms don't really counter them that well anymore. ZvZ is ofc just in a really strange/silly state atm and vs mech the mecher can't really kill the mutas unless they are clumped and fly over 3 WMs.
Tech switching into them now just seems so strong to me, since before they were on a timer and at a certain point you'd have counters out that would maybe not outright kill them, but dmg them enough that they were wasted supply for a while. Now it just piles on unless you are able to force them to *have to* take a bad fight that they can't retreat from.
I like the idea of them as a harass unit, I like the reaper/muta regen as it gives the units some utility through the game and lets good players showcase their micro. It's just stupid to have a harass orientated unit as a straight up good combat unit. Compared to the hellbat drops, the medivac is the harass unit there, as I could've dropped any other unit for the harass, hellbats are just currently the most effective(and medivacs are a support unit, which I feel the mutas are vs bio, primarily sniping medivacs)..
They lose to any antiair capable (non castet) unit in a cost for cost situation. I dont know how you guys can call that a good combat unit. Its in fact the worst AtG and the worst AtA unit in the game.
On May 15 2013 17:13 S1LVYR wrote: While personally I'm a huge fan of the current state of ZvZ, i understand that not everyone shares the same passion for the matchup. While i feel like this change won't do much for the muta-centric mid-late game, it will definitely make an opening for anti-muta timings. Generally the biggest problem with facing mutalisk play when not using mutalisks is the difficulty in taking expansions past your natural. This is still going to be the case with this change, but now that counter-attacks with mutas are an impossibility in the midgame, hydra all-ins will gain a lot of strength. It will be interesting to see how the metagame develops over the next week or two.
Well, if Hydra all-ins become stronger, Roach all-ins are even more powerful. As is, Roaches can be used in the window before your opponent gains a critical mass of Mutas (just as +1 carapace lings can work then too). This change just means your opponent will need another batch of Muta's before he can go on the offensive, giving Ling-Roach-Hydra a leg to stand on.
I'm not sure that this fixes the problem, but at the very least, it's going to lead to people exploring their options, which is a good thing.
On May 15 2013 17:05 Humfluxx wrote: Just nerf the mutas! really!
No, that is exactly what this community has been asking Blizzard for years not to do.
Nobody asked Blizzard to imrpove the unit that dramatically from their good balance in WoL without reducing their strength as a very strong fighting unit. Blizzard is just closing their eyes towards what the real problem is: a fantastic harassing unit cannot be a fantastic fighting unit at the same time. That's just insanely bad game design.
There are still issues with nerfing it straight up, but something needs to be done to the muta. As I see it, mutas are balanced in ZvT vs bio, but are kind of stupid in all the other MUs(aswell as vs mech). Maybe not OP, as I see it in vP they are just a really good tech switch, since now storms don't really counter them that well anymore. ZvZ is ofc just in a really strange/silly state atm and vs mech the mecher can't really kill the mutas unless they are clumped and fly over 3 WMs.
Tech switching into them now just seems so strong to me, since before they were on a timer and at a certain point you'd have counters out that would maybe not outright kill them, but dmg them enough that they were wasted supply for a while. Now it just piles on unless you are able to force them to *have to* take a bad fight that they can't retreat from.
I like the idea of them as a harass unit, I like the reaper/muta regen as it gives the units some utility through the game and lets good players showcase their micro. It's just stupid to have a harass orientated unit as a straight up good combat unit. Compared to the hellbat drops, the medivac is the harass unit there, as I could've dropped any other unit for the harass, hellbats are just currently the most effective(and medivacs are a support unit, which I feel the mutas are vs bio, primarily sniping medivacs)..
Muta's in ZvP are an "issue" in tech switching because the Protoss meta game is to ignore Zerg forever. If Protoss is content taking three bases and not preventing Zerg from taking five, Zerg is gonig to bank a ton and tech switch into 25 Muta's after the first battle.
From the Zerg perspective, what is the alternative? On a map like Akilon Wastes, Protoss can easily turtle with three bases. Zerg can't break that, so they keep expanding. Then Protoss moves out with a deathball that no Zerg army can defeat...the only response is a ridiculous tech switch. A nerf to Muta's is just a support of the Protoss meta, which clearly Blizzard is not a fan of. Blizzard wants action early (i.e. Mothership Core) so they're not going to implement a change that rewards Protoss for working against that goal.
In WoL every fucking game with Infestor/Broodlord was won by the awful game imbalance. It was just flat-out unfair.
I haven't watched a single game in HotS where I felt that it was decided by game balance. Mutalisks are strong but fair against T and P and now against non-Muta Z's, too. The occasional whining about Mothership Core or Medivacs is unwarranted and should be ignored. The game is perfect balance wise.
This change helped me A LOT. Now I can get faster third with roaches, queens and spores as defense. It's pretty much a free-win doing a 200 supply push with 2/2 Hydra, Roach, Infestor vs a Muta player. Altho if Muta player decides to go really fast ultra with fast 4th, things start get out of hand but still it's possible to win with a timing and good scout.
On May 15 2013 17:05 Humfluxx wrote: Just nerf the mutas! really!
No, that is exactly what this community has been asking Blizzard for years not to do.
I think he is more talking about the HOTS buffs mutas received that maybe should be looked at (WoL mutas were fine. They did need a little buff for HOTS to stay relevant, but it could easily be argued they went too far with what they did). As soon as they got buffed mutas caused issues in two different matchups (though most noticeably ZvZ.), but rather than take back that buff and try something else (it was beta after all) Blizzard has been instead trying to buff other things to compensate for this muta buff by doing all these silly other buffs like this spore crawler damage mumbo jumbo. They've always been like this, seemingly refusing to go back on patches and experimenting with other options when the buff/nerf they implemented is shown to be too much or too little.
What they are doing now trying to fix muta vs. muta ZvZ is the same thing they did when they tried to fix 4gate vs. 4gate PvP. Rather than go to the heart of the issue they try and fix it with a bunch of little patches before finally admitting defeat and dealing with the issue itself. There was actually a thread on this exact topic about a month ago or so.
On May 15 2013 17:05 Humfluxx wrote: Just nerf the mutas! really!
No, that is exactly what this community has been asking Blizzard for years not to do.
I think he is more talking about the HOTS buffs mutas received that maybe should be looked at (WoL mutas were fine. They did need a little buff for HOTS to stay relevant, but it could easily be argued they went too far with what they did). As soon as they got buffed mutas caused issues in two different matchups (though most noticeably ZvZ.), but rather than take back that buff and try something else (it was beta after all) Blizzard has been instead trying to buff other things to compensate for this muta buff by doing all these silly other buffs like this spore crawler damage mumbo jumbo. They've always been like this, seemingly refusing to go back on patches and experimenting with other options when the buff/nerf they implemented is shown to be too much or too little.
What they are doing now trying to fix muta vs. muta ZvZ is the same thing they did when they tried to fix 4gate vs. 4gate PvP. Rather than go to the heart of the issue they try and fix it with a bunch of little patches before finally admitting defeat and dealing with the issue itself. There was actually a thread on this exact topic about a month ago or so.
The HotS buffs were there to compensate for the medivac buff and widow mines. WoL mutas would be very bad against the current terran arsenal. Also, it is not so far the muta buff as it is the infestor nerf which makes ZvZ goes to muta muta since good luck catching muta's with a less hardhitting fungal if you can catch them at all. Zerg simply needed a new anti air unit in the expansion and since they didn't get it, this will be a mess till LoTV.
On May 15 2013 17:05 Humfluxx wrote: Just nerf the mutas! really!
No, that is exactly what this community has been asking Blizzard for years not to do.
I think he is more talking about the HOTS buffs mutas received that maybe should be looked at (WoL mutas were fine. They did need a little buff for HOTS to stay relevant, but it could easily be argued they went too far with what they did). As soon as they got buffed mutas caused issues in two different matchups (though most noticeably ZvZ.), but rather than take back that buff and try something else (it was beta after all) Blizzard has been instead trying to buff other things to compensate for this muta buff by doing all these silly other buffs like this spore crawler damage mumbo jumbo. They've always been like this, seemingly refusing to go back on patches and experimenting with other options when the buff/nerf they implemented is shown to be too much or too little.
What they are doing now trying to fix muta vs. muta ZvZ is the same thing they did when they tried to fix 4gate vs. 4gate PvP. Rather than go to the heart of the issue they try and fix it with a bunch of little patches before finally admitting defeat and dealing with the issue itself. There was actually a thread on this exact topic about a month ago or so.
Afaik they dealt with 4gate vs 4gate pretty well with little adjustments in WoL (removing ramp warpins, small vision changes, small warpgate research nerf). Afaik they dealt with mass infestors pretty well in HotS, without removing the stun from fungal, which people said was "the issue".
Also I'd like to know what "the issue" with mutalisks is in HotS. Regeneration is a big deal, so is the lack of a costefficient or equally mobile air counter for zerg as well as the weakness of bigass airsplash (fungal being the only one and quite weak these days). However, they solved one issue, which was costefficient defense and from my few games up to now, I haven't had too big of a problem holding a third against a mutalisk player. I'm not forced to tech hydralisks very fast now, can take my third off hatchtech with roach/queen/spore and be reasonable safe against any mutalisks and get a good economy before going mobile antiair, something I couldn't do as well before that patch.
On May 15 2013 17:05 Humfluxx wrote: Just nerf the mutas! really!
No, that is exactly what this community has been asking Blizzard for years not to do.
Nobody asked Blizzard to imrpove the unit that dramatically from their good balance in WoL without reducing their strength as a very strong fighting unit. Blizzard is just closing their eyes towards what the real problem is: a fantastic harassing unit cannot be a fantastic fighting unit at the same time. That's just insanely bad game design.
There are still issues with nerfing it straight up, but something needs to be done to the muta. As I see it, mutas are balanced in ZvT vs bio, but are kind of stupid in all the other MUs(aswell as vs mech). Maybe not OP, as I see it in vP they are just a really good tech switch, since now storms don't really counter them that well anymore. ZvZ is ofc just in a really strange/silly state atm and vs mech the mecher can't really kill the mutas unless they are clumped and fly over 3 WMs.
Tech switching into them now just seems so strong to me, since before they were on a timer and at a certain point you'd have counters out that would maybe not outright kill them, but dmg them enough that they were wasted supply for a while. Now it just piles on unless you are able to force them to *have to* take a bad fight that they can't retreat from.
I like the idea of them as a harass unit, I like the reaper/muta regen as it gives the units some utility through the game and lets good players showcase their micro. It's just stupid to have a harass orientated unit as a straight up good combat unit. Compared to the hellbat drops, the medivac is the harass unit there, as I could've dropped any other unit for the harass, hellbats are just currently the most effective(and medivacs are a support unit, which I feel the mutas are vs bio, primarily sniping medivacs)..
Muta's in ZvP are an "issue" in tech switching because the Protoss meta game is to ignore Zerg forever. If Protoss is content taking three bases and not preventing Zerg from taking five, Zerg is gonig to bank a ton and tech switch into 25 Muta's after the first battle.
From the Zerg perspective, what is the alternative? On a map like Akilon Wastes, Protoss can easily turtle with three bases. Zerg can't break that, so they keep expanding. Then Protoss moves out with a deathball that no Zerg army can defeat...the only response is a ridiculous tech switch. A nerf to Muta's is just a support of the Protoss meta, which clearly Blizzard is not a fan of. Blizzard wants action early (i.e. Mothership Core) so they're not going to implement a change that rewards Protoss for working against that goal.
Jesus, I can't even imagine how you can be wrong about literally everything in a single post. The issue with PvZ on maps like Akilon Wastes is that the Zerg can build up to a Swarm Host/Infestor/Viper/Corruptor army which is literally unengagable for a Protoss when coupled with "static" defense. In these games (Effort vs Trap today in Code A, for example), the Protoss often expands more aggressively and has an econ advantage in the lategame, but still can't touch the SH ball, which is why they resort to mass Zealot warpins and other shenanigans. The fact that the Zerg can bank 5k/5k, trade armies, and then instantly remax on Mutas is just icing on this particular cake.
Seriously, can we just get over this "Zerg can't touch the Protoss deathball wah wah wah" nonsense? Even Roach/Hydra/Viper does quite well against normal deathballs, and the likes of double upgraded Ultra/Ling with Queens and Infestors rolls over them even with inferior econ. Then there are the Swarm Hosts...
It's a shame that this is called the "balance update" and is everything Blizzard came up with so far. If you ask David Kim on what he did since the Hots release, the only thing he could say is "I've instruckted to higher the spore dmg vs bio" GZ on that man!! I cant believe people own money while doing nothing. But sure... I think ZvZ was too heavy on mutas yeah! Anyways there are far bigger concerns than this. That Terran has not been touched at all is hilarious. And that is not written out of any rage. Reguarding Protoss: For example the Oracle is just a manifest of poor gamedesign. Why would that unit have 2 differend spells which help "spoting things" and nothing more? It just feels senceless and overlapped even if they are used in different scenarios. It's a, what i call dark Protoss units and should in its spells kinda reflact that. My idea for the unit: 1 Spell: Keep Pulsarbeam, its fine and nice to watch! 2 Spell: Remove Revelation! Add skill to cloak unit! (While cloak it can't activate Pulsarbeam + costs energy once) This serves the same kind of purpose as Revelation if you are able to keep the unit with the enemy army and also the unit will be able to get out of dangerous situations. 3 Spell: Remove Envision! Add other detection mechanic: Just like Revelation you can debuff cloaked units which are within the Spell AoE and make them visible for a certain amout of time no matter where they go afterwards as long as they where hit by it. Otherwise it is just a observer without cloak which feels like nothing inovative at all. I think this unit could work but the poor design of it right now doesnt make it seem like a individual unit. Just like the Warhound. Any thoughts on that?
On May 15 2013 17:05 Humfluxx wrote: Just nerf the mutas! really!
No, that is exactly what this community has been asking Blizzard for years not to do.
Nobody asked Blizzard to imrpove the unit that dramatically from their good balance in WoL without reducing their strength as a very strong fighting unit. Blizzard is just closing their eyes towards what the real problem is: a fantastic harassing unit cannot be a fantastic fighting unit at the same time. That's just insanely bad game design.
There are still issues with nerfing it straight up, but something needs to be done to the muta. As I see it, mutas are balanced in ZvT vs bio, but are kind of stupid in all the other MUs(aswell as vs mech). Maybe not OP, as I see it in vP they are just a really good tech switch, since now storms don't really counter them that well anymore. ZvZ is ofc just in a really strange/silly state atm and vs mech the mecher can't really kill the mutas unless they are clumped and fly over 3 WMs.
Tech switching into them now just seems so strong to me, since before they were on a timer and at a certain point you'd have counters out that would maybe not outright kill them, but dmg them enough that they were wasted supply for a while. Now it just piles on unless you are able to force them to *have to* take a bad fight that they can't retreat from.
I like the idea of them as a harass unit, I like the reaper/muta regen as it gives the units some utility through the game and lets good players showcase their micro. It's just stupid to have a harass orientated unit as a straight up good combat unit. Compared to the hellbat drops, the medivac is the harass unit there, as I could've dropped any other unit for the harass, hellbats are just currently the most effective(and medivacs are a support unit, which I feel the mutas are vs bio, primarily sniping medivacs)..
They lose to any antiair capable (non castet) unit in a cost for cost situation. I dont know how you guys can call that a good combat unit. Its in fact the worst AtG and the worst AtA unit in the game.
It is 2nd fastest air unit, can clump up if need be(mostly relevant against stalkers) and heals. You just ignored my point totally. It is the healing that makes it so if you can't hard counter the mutas well enough, they can just keep chipping away at your GtA/AtA units and overwhelm you. With gas going in GtG/AtG units, that also makes it so you aren't going 1:1 gas ratio countering the mutas. Now as a terran I have it easier than I feel toss has it(especially since like I said in my other post, mutas are fine if you play bio). You can trade hp of muta for actual units of your opponent and then back off and heal. Then if there is nothing that hard counters the muta well enough, you can't really stabalize.
I'm not saying that in ZvP/ZvT it is OP, but I am concerned about how it will develop. I kind of feel that ZvZ is just the most obvious place where it is shown since ZvZ(and PvP) are such a knife-edge MU.
On May 15 2013 17:05 Humfluxx wrote: Just nerf the mutas! really!
No, that is exactly what this community has been asking Blizzard for years not to do.
Nobody asked Blizzard to imrpove the unit that dramatically from their good balance in WoL without reducing their strength as a very strong fighting unit. Blizzard is just closing their eyes towards what the real problem is: a fantastic harassing unit cannot be a fantastic fighting unit at the same time. That's just insanely bad game design.
There are still issues with nerfing it straight up, but something needs to be done to the muta. As I see it, mutas are balanced in ZvT vs bio, but are kind of stupid in all the other MUs(aswell as vs mech). Maybe not OP, as I see it in vP they are just a really good tech switch, since now storms don't really counter them that well anymore. ZvZ is ofc just in a really strange/silly state atm and vs mech the mecher can't really kill the mutas unless they are clumped and fly over 3 WMs.
Tech switching into them now just seems so strong to me, since before they were on a timer and at a certain point you'd have counters out that would maybe not outright kill them, but dmg them enough that they were wasted supply for a while. Now it just piles on unless you are able to force them to *have to* take a bad fight that they can't retreat from.
I like the idea of them as a harass unit, I like the reaper/muta regen as it gives the units some utility through the game and lets good players showcase their micro. It's just stupid to have a harass orientated unit as a straight up good combat unit. Compared to the hellbat drops, the medivac is the harass unit there, as I could've dropped any other unit for the harass, hellbats are just currently the most effective(and medivacs are a support unit, which I feel the mutas are vs bio, primarily sniping medivacs)..
They lose to any antiair capable (non castet) unit in a cost for cost situation. I dont know how you guys can call that a good combat unit. Its in fact the worst AtG and the worst AtA unit in the game.
It is 2nd fastest air unit, can clump up if need be(mostly relevant against stalkers) and heals. You just ignored my point totally. It is the healing that makes it so if you can't hard counter the mutas well enough, they can just keep chipping away at your GtA/AtA units and overwhelm you. With gas going in GtG/AtG units, that also makes it so you aren't going 1:1 gas ratio countering the mutas. Now as a terran I have it easier than I feel toss has it(especially since like I said in my other post, mutas are fine if you play bio). You can trade hp of muta for actual units of your opponent and then back off and heal. Then if there is nothing that hard counters the muta well enough, you can't really stabalize.
I'm not saying that in ZvP/ZvT it is OP, but I am concerned about how it will develop. I kind of feel that ZvZ is just the most obvious place where it is shown since ZvZ(and PvP) are such a knife-edge MU.
It's just stupid to have a harass orientated unit as a straight up good combat unit.
This is what I was answering to. I give you everything else. They are easy to mass, due to larva and being capable of fighting ground and air and being fast and fly, which gives them like a thousand possible roles. But they are simply not a straight up good combat unit. They are simply put, very bad in combat. That you can pick your engagements with them very easily and completly avoid real fighting until the opponent is litterarilly sitting in your base is something completly different.
Edit: btw I do like the dynamic mutalisk/phoenix introduce in PvZ a lot. As it stands, a Protoss who does not open phoenix is punishable with mutalisks later on and it is an indirect nerf to all those Protoss ground allins and ground deathball styles. You get a lot more dynamics from it as a Protoss can do less of those "I'm just gonna build a second robo", "I'm just gonna do the fastest two base rush possible after killing your overlord" and is more in the situation of "if I don't go phoenix, he may just overdefend ground and go mutas later and I won't have anything against them". Strategies seem to focus more on playing against what the other one does, than plain BOs.
Wow, ok to everyone replying to that post; they shouldn't nerf the muta, it is strong but it is no way unbeatable, mutas are strong in the fact they can dart round and be everywhere but they are very weak in a fight, the only aspect about them that needed to be changed was a way for Zerg to defend their base whilst pushing out as this allows for multiple compositions in ZvZ rather than just muta vs muta as you cannot leave your base due to the muta harass.
Of course previous ZvZ compositions will not work vs. mutas however that's not the right attitude, compositions will have to adapt so that they have a strong AtA when facing air but that's the point isn't it? You cannot just consider mutas a phase of the game which after both players transition to a ground vs. ground army, it is far more interesting to have the option to go something like roach-hydra versus muta ling where the roach hydra is eventually able to leave their base due to the new static anti air being strong.
On May 15 2013 17:05 Humfluxx wrote: Just nerf the mutas! really!
No, that is exactly what this community has been asking Blizzard for years not to do.
Nobody asked Blizzard to imrpove the unit that dramatically from their good balance in WoL without reducing their strength as a very strong fighting unit. Blizzard is just closing their eyes towards what the real problem is: a fantastic harassing unit cannot be a fantastic fighting unit at the same time. That's just insanely bad game design.
There are still issues with nerfing it straight up, but something needs to be done to the muta. As I see it, mutas are balanced in ZvT vs bio, but are kind of stupid in all the other MUs(aswell as vs mech). Maybe not OP, as I see it in vP they are just a really good tech switch, since now storms don't really counter them that well anymore. ZvZ is ofc just in a really strange/silly state atm and vs mech the mecher can't really kill the mutas unless they are clumped and fly over 3 WMs.
Tech switching into them now just seems so strong to me, since before they were on a timer and at a certain point you'd have counters out that would maybe not outright kill them, but dmg them enough that they were wasted supply for a while. Now it just piles on unless you are able to force them to *have to* take a bad fight that they can't retreat from.
I like the idea of them as a harass unit, I like the reaper/muta regen as it gives the units some utility through the game and lets good players showcase their micro. It's just stupid to have a harass orientated unit as a straight up good combat unit. Compared to the hellbat drops, the medivac is the harass unit there, as I could've dropped any other unit for the harass, hellbats are just currently the most effective(and medivacs are a support unit, which I feel the mutas are vs bio, primarily sniping medivacs)..
They lose to any antiair capable (non castet) unit in a cost for cost situation. I dont know how you guys can call that a good combat unit. Its in fact the worst AtG and the worst AtA unit in the game.
It is 2nd fastest air unit, can clump up if need be(mostly relevant against stalkers) and heals. You just ignored my point totally. It is the healing that makes it so if you can't hard counter the mutas well enough, they can just keep chipping away at your GtA/AtA units and overwhelm you. With gas going in GtG/AtG units, that also makes it so you aren't going 1:1 gas ratio countering the mutas. Now as a terran I have it easier than I feel toss has it(especially since like I said in my other post, mutas are fine if you play bio). You can trade hp of muta for actual units of your opponent and then back off and heal. Then if there is nothing that hard counters the muta well enough, you can't really stabalize.
I'm not saying that in ZvP/ZvT it is OP, but I am concerned about how it will develop. I kind of feel that ZvZ is just the most obvious place where it is shown since ZvZ(and PvP) are such a knife-edge MU.
It's just stupid to have a harass orientated unit as a straight up good combat unit.
This is what I was answering to. I give you everything else. They are easy to mass, due to larva and being capable of fighting ground and air and being fast and fly, which gives them like a thousand possible roles. But they are simply not a straight up good combat unit. They are simply put, very bad in combat. That you can pick your engagements with them very easily and completly avoid real fighting until the opponent is litterarilly sitting in your base is something completly different.
I mean it kind of depends on what you call good dps though, assuming no splash, thors and stalkers do similar dps as the muta for cost, so unless we are comparing the muta to rines, I'd say it's dps is still really good. I can however rephrase that then, they trade adequantly against units which are on the field for almost the only purpose to fight the mutas and are normally in greater numbers than those units.
Like I said before, I am not calling it OP. I'm liking this "wait and see" approach by Blizzard, but I am quite concerned about it though.
On May 16 2013 00:49 SlaverR wrote: 2 Spell: Remove Revelation! Add skill to cloak unit! (While cloak it can't activate Pulsarbeam + costs energy once) This serves the same kind of purpose as Revelation if you are able to keep the unit with the enemy army and also the unit will be able to get out of dangerous situations. Any thoughts on that?
So because you don't like a mechanism that is completely different than an observer but according to you still too much like an observer, you want to add a cloak so it can act as ridiculous expensive observer?
That makes as much sense as using a cloakshee as observer: it just means you lose your cloakshee. Same will be true for Oracles, you don't want to be over an army that will instakill you with detection.
On May 16 2013 01:11 FretfulAnimL wrote: They need to nerf Terran vs Zerg. I don't think anyone is complaining about the balance of the mirror match-ups -.-
Euhm yes people are complaining about balance in mirror matchups. Really weird idea that there can't be balance issues in mirrors :/. Currently I agree with blizzard that the mean issue is zvz muta wars, so good they address it (although I am not a big fan of the change).
And I just assume they are not a big fan of nerfing terran when they don't seem to be too strong.
On May 15 2013 17:05 Humfluxx wrote: Just nerf the mutas! really!
No, that is exactly what this community has been asking Blizzard for years not to do.
Nobody asked Blizzard to imrpove the unit that dramatically from their good balance in WoL without reducing their strength as a very strong fighting unit. Blizzard is just closing their eyes towards what the real problem is: a fantastic harassing unit cannot be a fantastic fighting unit at the same time. That's just insanely bad game design.
There are still issues with nerfing it straight up, but something needs to be done to the muta. As I see it, mutas are balanced in ZvT vs bio, but are kind of stupid in all the other MUs(aswell as vs mech). Maybe not OP, as I see it in vP they are just a really good tech switch, since now storms don't really counter them that well anymore. ZvZ is ofc just in a really strange/silly state atm and vs mech the mecher can't really kill the mutas unless they are clumped and fly over 3 WMs.
Tech switching into them now just seems so strong to me, since before they were on a timer and at a certain point you'd have counters out that would maybe not outright kill them, but dmg them enough that they were wasted supply for a while. Now it just piles on unless you are able to force them to *have to* take a bad fight that they can't retreat from.
I like the idea of them as a harass unit, I like the reaper/muta regen as it gives the units some utility through the game and lets good players showcase their micro. It's just stupid to have a harass orientated unit as a straight up good combat unit. Compared to the hellbat drops, the medivac is the harass unit there, as I could've dropped any other unit for the harass, hellbats are just currently the most effective(and medivacs are a support unit, which I feel the mutas are vs bio, primarily sniping medivacs)..
They lose to any antiair capable (non castet) unit in a cost for cost situation. I dont know how you guys can call that a good combat unit. Its in fact the worst AtG and the worst AtA unit in the game.
It is 2nd fastest air unit, can clump up if need be(mostly relevant against stalkers) and heals. You just ignored my point totally. It is the healing that makes it so if you can't hard counter the mutas well enough, they can just keep chipping away at your GtA/AtA units and overwhelm you. With gas going in GtG/AtG units, that also makes it so you aren't going 1:1 gas ratio countering the mutas. Now as a terran I have it easier than I feel toss has it(especially since like I said in my other post, mutas are fine if you play bio). You can trade hp of muta for actual units of your opponent and then back off and heal. Then if there is nothing that hard counters the muta well enough, you can't really stabalize.
I'm not saying that in ZvP/ZvT it is OP, but I am concerned about how it will develop. I kind of feel that ZvZ is just the most obvious place where it is shown since ZvZ(and PvP) are such a knife-edge MU.
It's just stupid to have a harass orientated unit as a straight up good combat unit.
This is what I was answering to. I give you everything else. They are easy to mass, due to larva and being capable of fighting ground and air and being fast and fly, which gives them like a thousand possible roles. But they are simply not a straight up good combat unit. They are simply put, very bad in combat. That you can pick your engagements with them very easily and completly avoid real fighting until the opponent is litterarilly sitting in your base is something completly different.
I mean it kind of depends on what you call good dps though, assuming no splash, thors and stalkers do similar dps as the muta for cost, so unless we are comparing the muta to rines, I'd say it's dps is still really good. I can however rephrase that then, they trade adequantly against units which are on the field for almost the only purpose to fight the mutas and are normally in greater numbers than those units.
Like I said before, I am not calling it OP. I'm liking this "wait and see" approach by Blizzard, but I am quite concerned about it though.
Oh well, I can agree with that a lot. But I think any AtG+AtA unit has such potential to be "broken in one way or another", as in Starcraft only few units can attack air. But I actually feel like units like the mutalisk which actually lose big combats are only really broken if you can safely snowball them in the midgame and such effects are usually manageable by adjusting your strategy. (while flying units that actually win combats like BL/Corruptor or BCs or Voidray/Carrier/Tempest always have the potential that people figure out how to turtle to/with them and then gain an "unbeatable" deathball) But yeah, starcrafts antiair design doesn't allow for too much efficiency on air units and it will always be one of the biggest things to look out for.
Honestly the spore change makes 0 difference except for defense. You'll still get 0 map control unless you go muta too, so it's no different. Come on Blizzard, look at more than 1 aspect of the game for a change.
On May 16 2013 02:19 Mortal wrote: Honestly the spore change makes 0 difference except for defense. You'll still get 0 map control unless you go muta too, so it's no different. Come on Blizzard, look at more than 1 aspect of the game for a change.
Don't the spores let you move out with your army without risk of losing your base completely, obviously you won't have map control against ling muta but isn't that to be expected?
On May 16 2013 02:19 Mortal wrote: Honestly the spore change makes 0 difference except for defense. You'll still get 0 map control unless you go muta too, so it's no different. Come on Blizzard, look at more than 1 aspect of the game for a change.
And was that any different in WoL against a muta opening? Hell, in WoL if he caught you offguard without a third, you would often have to wait 1-2mins for your first infestors to pop, just to take your third against a muta/ling opening.
On May 16 2013 02:19 Mortal wrote: Honestly the spore change makes 0 difference except for defense. You'll still get 0 map control unless you go muta too, so it's no different. Come on Blizzard, look at more than 1 aspect of the game for a change.
And was that any different in WoL against a muta opening? Hell, in WoL if he caught you offguard without a third, you would often have to wait 1-2mins for your first infestors to pop, just to take your third against a muta/ling opening.
Or, he would use the mutas to try and snipe the 3rd and once it was sniped you just couldn't retake it and by that point the muta opening was successful.
On May 16 2013 02:19 Mortal wrote: Honestly the spore change makes 0 difference except for defense. You'll still get 0 map control unless you go muta too, so it's no different. Come on Blizzard, look at more than 1 aspect of the game for a change.
Don't the spores let you move out with your army without risk of losing your base completely, obviously you won't have map control against ling muta but isn't that to be expected?
you don't need map-control to win a game, I play Protoss so I know :D
On May 16 2013 01:11 FretfulAnimL wrote: They need to nerf Terran vs Zerg. I don't think anyone is complaining about the balance of the mirror match-ups -.-
Except many of the Zerg players who feel they are forced to go into mutas and don't want to.
On May 16 2013 01:11 FretfulAnimL wrote: They need to nerf Terran vs Zerg. I don't think anyone is complaining about the balance of the mirror match-ups -.-
Except many of the Zerg players who feel they are forced to go into mutas and don't want to.
Exactly. ZvZ is actually the only matchup that I've been complaining about. xD I loved Roach/Hydra/Infestor plays in WoL, then for awhile there ling/bling/muta was popular again, then mutas into roach/infestor... on and on. Seemed like there was a lot of diversity at the end of WoL. (albeit Infestor/Broodlord, but I still didn't see that THAT often)
The balance of SC2 at the moment is quite good in my opinion. Most of the qq that I'm seeing is completely unelaborated or makes no sense at all and seems to be from a very small group. Gameplay wise, the early game is more volatile (at least with respect to WoL's 15 minute 3 base no rush meta). Glad to see Bliz not making fast sweeping changes.
The spore change is nice since it doesn't affect the other matchups and does, if ever so slightly, push for a less muta vs muta zvz. Not sure how effective this will be at elevating the issue though.
On May 16 2013 00:49 SlaverR wrote: That Terran has not been touched at all is hilarious.
Is it??? Where do you see imbalance? In tourneys? No. In ladder? No. There is 0 imbalance atm, and you are still whining. Why? Because you want your easy wol times back? Well let me tell you, this won't happen. The game is balanced now, all races have a hard time.
You actually see zergs doing FINE vs terran with a WOL composition (muta ling bling) vs the new sick things terrans got (mines, speedvac, hellbats). Can you imagine that? A race is using pure WOL units, and is doing FINE against sick new units. Imagine you start using your new stuff like speedhydras, swarmhosts and vipers. In a few weeks you will feel so embarrassed for complaining so much, and I'm 100% sure of this.
i dont like muta zvz, not because of gameplay but seeing mutas...being "microed" looks just so sad. its like a dog with a missing leg hopping around all happily wagging its tail
A lot of useless anecdotal "data" here, alongside baddies pontificating on the state of balance.
Based on my enjoyment of watching the highest level of play, combined with my mid-masters (bad, but still) ladder experience, I am very happy with where the game is. Feels fun, dynamic, not fully figured out.
I guess my biggest gripe is that the Protoss matchup doesn't feel that much different. Mass Muta is still a pain to deal with on a regular basis, M/M/M with Ghosts and now Hellbats is basically why I don't like playing PvT (which is easily my fault), and PvP would be fun if people would just stop 4-Gating. In other words, it's kind of monotonous from my experience, which could simply be that I've had some bad luck with matches since I last played. I simply wish Gateway units had more utility like they did way back when: I simply can't look at my Zealots and think they are indispensable.
On May 14 2013 10:26 Redrot wrote: As a zergie, I think this is okay, but I feel there are better options, such as deprojectilizing fungal.
more like completely removing it? Or at least put one ability away: either it damages or it stops units. and a spell shouldn't be too simple to use either, just learn to use it
On May 16 2013 00:49 SlaverR wrote: That Terran has not been touched at all is hilarious.
Is it??? Where do you see imbalance? In tourneys? No. In ladder? No. There is 0 imbalance atm, and you are still whining. Why? Because you want your easy wol times back? Well let me tell you, this won't happen. The game is balanced now, all races have a hard time.
You actually see zergs doing FINE vs terran with a WOL composition (muta ling bling) vs the new sick things terrans got (mines, speedvac, hellbats). Can you imagine that? A race is using pure WOL units, and is doing FINE against sick new units. Imagine you start using your new stuff like speedhydras, swarmhosts and vipers. In a few weeks you will feel so embarrassed for complaining so much, and I'm 100% sure of this.
Couldnt agree more. I just realize i've never thought about that, WoL zerg style (with the minor ultra/muta buff) is going head to head with the completely revamped terran from HotS. Thats the moment you notice how bullshit Wings of Liberty TvZ was.
On May 16 2013 00:49 SlaverR wrote: That Terran has not been touched at all is hilarious.
Is it??? Where do you see imbalance? In tourneys? No. In ladder? No. There is 0 imbalance atm, and you are still whining. Why? Because you want your easy wol times back? Well let me tell you, this won't happen. The game is balanced now, all races have a hard time.
You actually see zergs doing FINE vs terran with a WOL composition (muta ling bling) vs the new sick things terrans got (mines, speedvac, hellbats). Can you imagine that? A race is using pure WOL units, and is doing FINE against sick new units. Imagine you start using your new stuff like speedhydras, swarmhosts and vipers. In a few weeks you will feel so embarrassed for complaining so much, and I'm 100% sure of this.
Couldnt agree more. I just realize i've never thought about that, WoL zerg style (with the minor ultra/muta buff) is going head to head with the completely revamped terran from HotS. Thats the moment you notice how bullshit Wings of Liberty TvZ was.
That would be true, if mutas didn't get a huge buff. (O you say "minor" ultra/muta buff "minor" )
The game is pretty balanced at pro level, the only MU that is somewhat problematic is still TvZ, Terran is beating Zerg about as much as Zerg beat Terran before Hots, when terran's rightfully QQ'd nonstop about TvZ.
Stats for past 15 days: PvT 188–179 (51%) PvZ 263–244 (52%) TvZ 254–191 (57%)
The thing that I don't like about the buff is that mutas still give the player insane map control. I think that's the issue and buffing static D doesn't really fix that, imho.
On May 14 2013 10:26 Redrot wrote: As a zergie, I think this is okay, but I feel there are better options, such as deprojectilizing fungal.
more like completely removing it? Or at least put one ability away: either it damages or it stops units. and a spell shouldn't be too simple to use either, just learn to use it
problem with fungal is is not up to the zerg if they hit or miss but his opponent. And that is just wrong in my oppinion
On May 14 2013 09:34 LaLuSh wrote: I think hellbat was an obvious nerf that Blizzard omitted. There's no question it will be nerfed at some point. Apart from that it's probably good that they're waiting it out.
But I give it 6 months before the novelty value of HotS dies off and people start to get really really tired of camp fests again (especially ZvP).
There's a level of tolerance now that won't be there towards the second half of HotS life cycle. ZvZ change is positive.
I'm terran and totally agree on this. The hellbat is broken at such a level that even in TvT it's a broken unit, that's pretty telling. But I really hope they won't nerf it to the ground and make the unit worthless like the WoL reaper. It's a really cool unit that brings so much to the terran arsenal.
I don't know about further hellbat nerfs. We have a slow short range unit right now. Once it connects it deals a lot of damage, but with the slow speed it's hard to make it work. Hellbat drops seem only an issue in TvT from my perspective. If Zerg or Protoss are losing to Hellbat drops, they're doing some things extremely wrong. If the dmg gets nerfed, then they have to increase the range. Because otherwise the unit will just be trash.
Protoss and Zerg players are not "doing some things extremely wrong" if they lose to Firebat drops. If you make even a slight mistake against Firebats then you will lose a lot of workers because of how they deal their damage. Neither Protoss nor Zerg have a (mineral only!!!) unit that can deal so much (splash!!!) damage to workers without the opponent making a monumental mistake.
EDIT:
Later in the game, they become less of a problem. They're really only as dangerous as a normal drop later in the game since people should have Cannons/Spores/Blink Stalkers/Templar/Turrets/Vikings/Mutalisks/whatever to help deflect drops... but in the early game they are a massive problem.
you say it yourself: later in the game, they are no problem. So scout more: if opponent goes 1 base aggression with hellbats, and you go greedy base after base not thinking about defense, I don't think it's the hellbats fault. I am a greedy player myself always go for the fast expand, no matter which race, but as soon as I sense/scout hellbats i take precautions. It's not hard and there is a reason why we recently see so many pro gamers doing the perfect hellbat drop but still doing zero damage- because it can be avoided to be taken from them. Also you mention that other races don't have such a strong unit for harassement: which isn't true and you know it yourself by mentioning mineral only, which isn't exactly the case cause for hellbat drops in early game you need ofc to invest lots of gas into infrastructure, as well as for dropping you need some medivacs. The last point is interesting, cause Terran bio requires medivacs real soon in the game so if you make these double hellbat drops, you invest a huge amount into something that if it doesn't do damage you are far behind, you lack support units in a possible counter (the medivacs) and if you lose these double drops (or maybe even only 1) you still lost a lot of resources (2 hellbats= 200 min, Medivac 100/100) time, and the resources that ran into buildings, maybe not actually useful at this and the next few momens (like early armory). All these investements, as statet earlier, add up and are an incredible hit/disadvantage to the player who does this out of 1 base and doesnt do damage. As you stated out, in mid/lategame its no problem, so you obviously meant this one base harassement/allin build.
So whatever the race is, the tip is, if you know or think of the possibility of hellbats in the game, just stop being all that greedy: don't make 10 more drones instead of 1 small round of roaches+ crawlers for defense purposes or something like that. Same is for toss (cannons, stalker whatever) or terrans (turret+ marauder or maybe even bunker next to mineral line). I find it funny that most players who complain about them in the games I use them, i check out their replays and previous games and all they can do is drone up/probe up to a specific amount and then just run over the oponent with imba army. I am not sure if that is how blizzard designed the races, I think it should more be of a constant battle and not leaning back, maxing a-moving.
On May 16 2013 00:49 SlaverR wrote: That Terran has not been touched at all is hilarious.
Is it??? Where do you see imbalance? In tourneys? No. In ladder? No. There is 0 imbalance atm, and you are still whining. Why? Because you want your easy wol times back? Well let me tell you, this won't happen. The game is balanced now, all races have a hard time.
You actually see zergs doing FINE vs terran with a WOL composition (muta ling bling) vs the new sick things terrans got (mines, speedvac, hellbats). Can you imagine that? A race is using pure WOL units, and is doing FINE against sick new units. Imagine you start using your new stuff like speedhydras, swarmhosts and vipers. In a few weeks you will feel so embarrassed for complaining so much, and I'm 100% sure of this.
Couldnt agree more. I just realize i've never thought about that, WoL zerg style (with the minor ultra/muta buff) is going head to head with the completely revamped terran from HotS. Thats the moment you notice how bullshit Wings of Liberty TvZ was.
That would be true, if mutas didn't get a huge buff. (O you say "minor" ultra/muta buff "minor" )
The game is pretty balanced at pro level, the only MU that is somewhat problematic is still TvZ, Terran is beating Zerg about as much as Zerg beat Terran before Hots, when terran's rightfully QQ'd nonstop about TvZ.
Stats for past 15 days: PvT 188–179 (51%) PvZ 263–244 (52%) TvZ 254–191 (57%)
have the same feeling about it by watching progames. But on the other hand, things can turn around quickly: First: the metagame can still change a lot, I have seen pro-zergs just crushing terrans lately, if they foresee everything they do. Ofc the new abilities, though not many, of terrans, are used to a max right now. To get an early lead or to make the game even when Z plays too greedy. 3 Things have changed in TvZ from POV of the terran: Hellbat, boost and the widow mine. I excluded the reaper as it doesn't do anything for mid/endgame AFAIK. I think that we have seen awesome counters to all 3 things: hellbats being countered and not doing any damage if zerg is aware of them and has some defense at home (maybe not having whole army in 1 hotkey helps ), medivac boost clearly gives some troubles but is also nicely figured out I think. Biggest Problem is combination of the 2 (hellbat+boost). I don't like the mine for adding so much randomness into a battle. I wouldn't mind it being changed, although i think it has the biggest part of why T seems now stronger than Z. So yeah, it could be that there are some changes needed or just metagame changes? Could also be, that Zergplayers who gained some ranks and leagues due to Zerg being slightly OP in WoL, now have to face the Terrans that may originally be better and now have the tools again to strike back :D Another reason why I think there should be a change in game (units) or metagame is, that when watching TvZ it feels like terran have the same unit composition every game (besides they do the awkward mech thing :D).
100% disapprove with this change. This doesn't fix the muta problem, all this does is make it easier for zergs to turtle vs mutas. If you want to give zerg a way to actually fight mutas while still suffering the mobility disadvantage that they should vs a flying harass unit, then buff the hydra (or at least its anti-air).
On May 16 2013 00:49 SlaverR wrote: That Terran has not been touched at all is hilarious.
Is it??? Where do you see imbalance? In tourneys? No. In ladder? No. There is 0 imbalance atm, and you are still whining. Why? Because you want your easy wol times back? Well let me tell you, this won't happen. The game is balanced now, all races have a hard time.
You actually see zergs doing FINE vs terran with a WOL composition (muta ling bling) vs the new sick things terrans got (mines, speedvac, hellbats). Can you imagine that? A race is using pure WOL units, and is doing FINE against sick new units. Imagine you start using your new stuff like speedhydras, swarmhosts and vipers. In a few weeks you will feel so embarrassed for complaining so much, and I'm 100% sure of this.
Couldnt agree more. I just realize i've never thought about that, WoL zerg style (with the minor ultra/muta buff) is going head to head with the completely revamped terran from HotS. Thats the moment you notice how bullshit Wings of Liberty TvZ was.
That would be true, if mutas didn't get a huge buff. (O you say "minor" ultra/muta buff "minor" )
The game is pretty balanced at pro level, the only MU that is somewhat problematic is still TvZ, Terran is beating Zerg about as much as Zerg beat Terran before Hots, when terran's rightfully QQ'd nonstop about TvZ.
Stats for past 15 days: PvT 188–179 (51%) PvZ 263–244 (52%) TvZ 254–191 (57%)
Could also be, that Zergplayers who gained some ranks and leagues due to Zerg being slightly OP in WoL, now have to face the Terrans that may originally be better and now have the tools again to strike back :D Another reason why I think there should be a change in game (units) or metagame is, that when watching TvZ it feels like terran have the same unit composition every game (besides they do the awkward mech thing :D).
I don't think TvZ is going to go trough any major changes unless something gets changed, it's pretty stable how it's played right now. Honestly the matchup might be actually balanced once you get to the skill level of the very best zergs(I'm talking Life/Roro/Soulkey skill), I don't think Zerg is going to beat terran by meta-gaming, there isn't much to meta-game vs biomine, it's good vs whatever zerg does. That being said, the amount of terrans with ridiculous win ratios at TvZ at master's is rather silly.
On May 14 2013 10:26 Redrot wrote: As a zergie, I think this is okay, but I feel there are better options, such as deprojectilizing fungal.
more like completely removing it? Or at least put one ability away: either it damages or it stops units. and a spell shouldn't be too simple to use either, just learn to use it
Yea, lets make the problem (zerg got simply no other ways to counter zerg then more mutas) even bigger...
On May 14 2013 10:26 Redrot wrote: As a zergie, I think this is okay, but I feel there are better options, such as deprojectilizing fungal.
more like completely removing it? Or at least put one ability away: either it damages or it stops units. and a spell shouldn't be too simple to use either, just learn to use it
problem with fungal is is not up to the zerg if they hit or miss but his opponent. And that is just wrong in my oppinion
So you think an "undodgeable attack which locks units down" is a good thing to have in such a game? Think about that again from the receiving end ... and from a side which doesnt have such a spell at all ... maybe you get the problem behind Fungal.
The "problem of Mutalisk wars" isnt going to be solved by buffing Fungals or Spores, because the problem is that Mutalisks are too damn fast. They had their speed buffed AND they got added regeneration and both of these things make using the unit much safer. The wise choice is to take these buffs out again or at least nerf their movement speed of 4 by a lot to make them slower than they were before the speed buff.
On May 16 2013 00:49 SlaverR wrote: That Terran has not been touched at all is hilarious.
Is it??? Where do you see imbalance? In tourneys? No. In ladder? No. There is 0 imbalance atm, and you are still whining. Why? Because you want your easy wol times back? Well let me tell you, this won't happen. The game is balanced now, all races have a hard time.
You actually see zergs doing FINE vs terran with a WOL composition (muta ling bling) vs the new sick things terrans got (mines, speedvac, hellbats). Can you imagine that? A race is using pure WOL units, and is doing FINE against sick new units. Imagine you start using your new stuff like speedhydras, swarmhosts and vipers. In a few weeks you will feel so embarrassed for complaining so much, and I'm 100% sure of this.
Couldnt agree more. I just realize i've never thought about that, WoL zerg style (with the minor ultra/muta buff) is going head to head with the completely revamped terran from HotS. Thats the moment you notice how bullshit Wings of Liberty TvZ was.
That would be true, if mutas didn't get a huge buff. (O you say "minor" ultra/muta buff "minor" )
The game is pretty balanced at pro level, the only MU that is somewhat problematic is still TvZ, Terran is beating Zerg about as much as Zerg beat Terran before Hots, when terran's rightfully QQ'd nonstop about TvZ.
Stats for past 15 days: PvT 188–179 (51%) PvZ 263–244 (52%) TvZ 254–191 (57%)
Muta buff is minor in TvZ.
Ultra buff is bigger. Don't mix those up. And when we see Zergs kill Terrans with just muta/ling/bling, I don't think ultras should be included in the discussion.
But you started with a strawman, and then finish with dubious stats. I'm not interested in stats with Zergs who still haven't caught up in the meta, or don't have the skill required to deal with the new Terran units. Mainly Korean Zergs, and a select few foreigners matter when it comes to balance.
And Terran QQ'd when foreign Zergs were beating top Korean Terrans regularly! I don't think I've seen the reverse yet. In fact, some exceptional foreign Zergs are beating Korean Terrans in HotS. You would almost never see top foreign Terrans beat Korean zergs, let alone top foreign Zergs, in late WoL.
/edit
And even when top Terrans beat top Zerg, or good Zergs, it would be a grueling match where they just barely eek out a win. Or proxy 2 rax lol
On May 16 2013 11:19 -NegativeZero- wrote: 100% disapprove with this change. This doesn't fix the muta problem, all this does is make it easier for zergs to turtle vs mutas. If you want to give zerg a way to actually fight mutas while still suffering the mobility disadvantage that they should vs a flying harass unit, then buff the hydra (or at least its anti-air).
Why do you think BUFFING is the right choice to fix this situation? If you buff the Hydra - even if you only give them "vs biological air" buffs (which is stupid IMO) - you are going to make them much better against every other Zerg air unit (Overlords, Overseers, Corruptors, Broodlords) and disturbe the balance between those ... which might require yet another change ... which will then require another and so on.
Hydras have enough dps to kill anything fast enough and the real problem is that "Mutalisks dont stand still" ... i.e. their speed.
On May 16 2013 00:49 SlaverR wrote: That Terran has not been touched at all is hilarious.
Is it??? Where do you see imbalance? In tourneys? No. In ladder? No. There is 0 imbalance atm, and you are still whining. Why? Because you want your easy wol times back? Well let me tell you, this won't happen. The game is balanced now, all races have a hard time.
You actually see zergs doing FINE vs terran with a WOL composition (muta ling bling) vs the new sick things terrans got (mines, speedvac, hellbats). Can you imagine that? A race is using pure WOL units, and is doing FINE against sick new units. Imagine you start using your new stuff like speedhydras, swarmhosts and vipers. In a few weeks you will feel so embarrassed for complaining so much, and I'm 100% sure of this.
Couldnt agree more. I just realize i've never thought about that, WoL zerg style (with the minor ultra/muta buff) is going head to head with the completely revamped terran from HotS. Thats the moment you notice how bullshit Wings of Liberty TvZ was.
That would be true, if mutas didn't get a huge buff. (O you say "minor" ultra/muta buff "minor" )
The game is pretty balanced at pro level, the only MU that is somewhat problematic is still TvZ, Terran is beating Zerg about as much as Zerg beat Terran before Hots, when terran's rightfully QQ'd nonstop about TvZ.
Stats for past 15 days: PvT 188–179 (51%) PvZ 263–244 (52%) TvZ 254–191 (57%)
Muta buff is minor in TvZ.
Ultra buff is bigger. Don't mix those up. And when we see Zergs kill Terrans with just muta/ling/bling, I don't think ultras should be included in the discussion.
But you started with a strawman, and then finish with dubious stats. I'm not interested in stats with Zergs who still haven't caught up in the meta, or don't have the skill required to deal with the new Terran units. Mainly Korean Zergs, and a select few foreigners matter when it comes to balance.
And Terran QQ'd when foreign Zergs were beating top Korean Terrans regularly! I don't think I've seen the reverse yet. In fact, some exceptional foreign Zergs are beating Korean Terrans in HotS. You would almost never see top foreign Terrans beat Korean zergs, let alone top foreign Zergs, in late WoL.
/edit
And even when top Terrans beat top Zerg, or good Zergs, it would be a grueling match where they just barely eek out a win. Or proxy 2 rax lol
A lot of QQ was going around because of Theo beating JD recently in WCS, so surely you've seen it. The game IS fine for the most part.
On May 14 2013 10:26 Redrot wrote: As a zergie, I think this is okay, but I feel there are better options, such as deprojectilizing fungal.
more like completely removing it? Or at least put one ability away: either it damages or it stops units. and a spell shouldn't be too simple to use either, just learn to use it
problem with fungal is is not up to the zerg if they hit or miss but his opponent. And that is just wrong in my oppinion
So you think an "undodgeable attack which locks units down" is a good thing to have in such a game? Think about that again from the receiving end ... and from a side which doesnt have such a spell at all ... maybe you get the problem behind Fungal.
The "problem of Mutalisk wars" isnt going to be solved by buffing Fungals or Spores, because the problem is that Mutalisks are too damn fast. They had their speed buffed AND they got added regeneration and both of these things make using the unit much safer. The wise choice is to take these buffs out again or at least nerf their movement speed of 4 by a lot to make them slower than they were before the speed buff.
Can we nerf medivac speed to compensate then? Cause it is obvious that the muta speedbuff happened cause of the ubervacs. If you think mutas can't catch them now, wait till you nerf them.
On May 14 2013 10:26 Redrot wrote: As a zergie, I think this is okay, but I feel there are better options, such as deprojectilizing fungal.
more like completely removing it? Or at least put one ability away: either it damages or it stops units. and a spell shouldn't be too simple to use either, just learn to use it
problem with fungal is is not up to the zerg if they hit or miss but his opponent. And that is just wrong in my oppinion
So you think an "undodgeable attack which locks units down" is a good thing to have in such a game? Think about that again from the receiving end ... and from a side which doesnt have such a spell at all ... maybe you get the problem behind Fungal.
The "problem of Mutalisk wars" isnt going to be solved by buffing Fungals or Spores, because the problem is that Mutalisks are too damn fast. They had their speed buffed AND they got added regeneration and both of these things make using the unit much safer. The wise choice is to take these buffs out again or at least nerf their movement speed of 4 by a lot to make them slower than they were before the speed buff.
Can we nerf medivac speed to compensate then? Cause it is obvious that the muta speedbuff happened cause of the ubervacs. If you think mutas can't catch them now, wait till you nerf them.
Then TvP will be affected. Not to mention that Terrans have to drop against zergs with buffed ultras, unless they're ahead by a lot.
On May 14 2013 10:26 Redrot wrote: As a zergie, I think this is okay, but I feel there are better options, such as deprojectilizing fungal.
more like completely removing it? Or at least put one ability away: either it damages or it stops units. and a spell shouldn't be too simple to use either, just learn to use it
problem with fungal is is not up to the zerg if they hit or miss but his opponent. And that is just wrong in my oppinion
So you think an "undodgeable attack which locks units down" is a good thing to have in such a game? Think about that again from the receiving end ... and from a side which doesnt have such a spell at all ... maybe you get the problem behind Fungal.
The "problem of Mutalisk wars" isnt going to be solved by buffing Fungals or Spores, because the problem is that Mutalisks are too damn fast. They had their speed buffed AND they got added regeneration and both of these things make using the unit much safer. The wise choice is to take these buffs out again or at least nerf their movement speed of 4 by a lot to make them slower than they were before the speed buff.
Can we nerf medivac speed to compensate then? Cause it is obvious that the muta speedbuff happened cause of the ubervacs. If you think mutas can't catch them now, wait till you nerf them.
I have no objection to getting rid of the silly turboboost which makes drop harrassment too easy and efficient. Sadly it isnt my decision to make ...
On May 14 2013 10:26 Redrot wrote: As a zergie, I think this is okay, but I feel there are better options, such as deprojectilizing fungal.
more like completely removing it? Or at least put one ability away: either it damages or it stops units. and a spell shouldn't be too simple to use either, just learn to use it
problem with fungal is is not up to the zerg if they hit or miss but his opponent. And that is just wrong in my oppinion
So you think an "undodgeable attack which locks units down" is a good thing to have in such a game? Think about that again from the receiving end ... and from a side which doesnt have such a spell at all ... maybe you get the problem behind Fungal.
The "problem of Mutalisk wars" isnt going to be solved by buffing Fungals or Spores, because the problem is that Mutalisks are too damn fast. They had their speed buffed AND they got added regeneration and both of these things make using the unit much safer. The wise choice is to take these buffs out again or at least nerf their movement speed of 4 by a lot to make them slower than they were before the speed buff.
Can we nerf medivac speed to compensate then? Cause it is obvious that the muta speedbuff happened cause of the ubervacs. If you think mutas can't catch them now, wait till you nerf them.
Then TvP will be affected. Not to mention that Terrans have to drop against zergs with buffed ultras, unless they're ahead by a lot.
Snute vs Heart showed us all the power of ultras.
Ultras are FAR later than Medivacs and you can have far more Medivacs than Ultras.
I dont know how everybody didnt realize how OBVIOUS these problems can be solved with a decent balance change as a result. Spore buff besides being a weak and kind stupid, it also makes no sense. So im sure a lot of people are asking themselves on what they have to do to fix zvz and kinda buff the zvt (which is necessary since obviously tvz is pretty terran favored at the moment) ???
The question has a simple answer. Just bring back the infestor of the end of (WOL). Now i gonna explain why...
1- this solution will fix the muta issue @ ZVZ and also allow zergs to play with ground combo units once again, such as roach/infestor etc.
2 - zergs will recover the variety of the unit combos that we had on WOL @ ZVT. Its pretty obvious that @ hots zerg has only one viable and effective style which is muta ling bane into ultralisks... Roach hydra isnt good vs bio and any decent terran can beat this pretty easy if they dont get punished to some attack/cheese early game. Doing that zerg will be able to go (muta/ling/bane) (infestor/ling/bane) (roach/ling/infestor) (hydra/roach). The match and the game will become more entertainment for the players and spectators.
3 - This will never broke the game, why? Infestors were good but they have never been OP or broken, specially in the end of wol where infestors became pretty balanced. But we cant say the same thing of the infestors of HOTS, the fact is that blizzard gave new units to zergs but they nerfed infestor to the point that they kinda removed the unit out of the game, there is only few situations that infestors are cost effective right now. So why not bring back the balanced infestor and fix the game? Terrans have mines/battlehellions turbomedivacs... I honestly dont understand why its so difficult to understand that... Blizzard could even keep the fungal = 30damage vs armored, i dont care... But this stupid projectile must be changed. Im 100% sure that the game would become MUCH BETTER with these changes...
The strength from mutas in ZvZ comes from the lack of splash damage in the Zerg arsenal. Toss have Storm and Terran has Thors/Mines to threaten even huge muta flocks. With fungal being slow the lack thereof becomes painfully clear in ZvZ. Maybe the spore crawler buff gives people room to explore more variety in their builds and work on their fungal aimimg. But a more effective source for mobile air-splash (without the root effect) would certainly be nice.
On May 16 2013 11:19 -NegativeZero- wrote: 100% disapprove with this change. This doesn't fix the muta problem, all this does is make it easier for zergs to turtle vs mutas. If you want to give zerg a way to actually fight mutas while still suffering the mobility disadvantage that they should vs a flying harass unit, then buff the hydra (or at least its anti-air).
From what I've seen from people here is that mutas are actually weak in a straight up fight, these spores allow you to protect your base without having to have your army there.
i think these are likely the future balance problems that will be seen in hots
1) tons of voidrays vs zerg. pretty much when toss builds get heavily sorted out to find the safe/proper way to get voidrays while being safe vs all things, then the VR will be shown to be imba.
right now zergs win cuz either the toss isnt trying to mass voidrays, or maybe the zerg hits hard with mutas fast and the toss got voidrays instead of pheonix. a maxed army of voidrays slaughters a maxed army of mutas but when the zerg hits early and its 10mutas vs 3voidrays the voidrays lose
my point is the "army" of voidrays is imbalanced, but of course in order to "get" that army a protoss needs to fight against zerg in all other stages of the game until he completes the army
my point is simply, a maxed voidray army with some storm is basically unbeatable
my solution to this would be something like maybe increase VR charge cooldown to like 3 minutes. that should help out alot allowing hydra+queen+corrupter+fungal to fight against VR alot more effectively
also what fungal is only 30 damage to armored? it should be 40 damage again like in WoL
2) neural parasite is pretty stupid. like.... its use is so cliche
is the enemy ever going to mass massive units? whats the point really considering the huge upgrade cost heres my idea for change NP
make NP no longer require an upgrade make NP 50 energy make NP no longer target massive turn archons into a new unit type called "sami massive". this functions EXACTLY the same as massive except its not "called" massive meaning NP still works on archons
boom, now early infestors will be strong, powerful, and useful against voidrays, tanks, even small things like ravens/ht with this new 50 energy free NP
I feel using NP on archons is important so i kept it in
i think these are likely the future balance problems that will be seen in hots
1) tons of voidrays vs zerg. pretty much when toss builds get heavily sorted out to find the safe/proper way to get voidrays while being safe vs all things, then the VR will be shown to be imba.
right now zergs win cuz either the toss isnt trying to mass voidrays, or maybe the zerg hits hard with mutas fast and the toss got voidrays instead of pheonix. a maxed army of voidrays slaughters a maxed army of mutas but when the zerg hits early and its 10mutas vs 3voidrays the voidrays lose
my point is the "army" of voidrays is imbalanced, but of course in order to "get" that army a protoss needs to fight against zerg in all other stages of the game until he completes the army
my point is simply, a maxed voidray army with some storm is basically unbeatable
my solution to this would be something like maybe increase VR charge cooldown to like 3 minutes. that should help out alot allowing hydra+queen+corrupter+fungal to fight against VR alot more effectively
No it's not, mass infestors/SH will shut this down hard, Protoss pretty much is held back by the waves of spawnlings, infestors burrow move under the SH pop up and FG. Zerg is pretty much imba.
Go ahead in the unit tester, and test it out. Cost-for-cost VRs pretty much have to kite the spawns just to keep the base alive and if they over-extend the infestors can chain-FG them to death, add in a spore forest of 6 well spread crawlers and you guys pretty much win the game already.
I mean come on. Spend some time figuring out the unit counters and building a BO around it like the players who main T or P instead of whining every time the T & P players come up with something new.
BTW are you a fan of idrA?
*shakes head*
On May 16 2013 16:14 OfficeBrahzz wrote: 2) neural parasite is pretty stupid. like.... its use is so cliche
is the enemy ever going to mass massive units? whats the point really considering the huge upgrade cost heres my idea for change NP
make NP no longer require an upgrade make NP 50 energy make NP no longer target massive turn archons into a new unit type called "sami massive". this functions EXACTLY the same as massive except its not "called" massive meaning NP still works on archons
boom, now early infestors will be strong, powerful, and useful against voidrays, tanks, even small things like ravens/ht with this new 50 energy free NP
I feel using NP on archons is important so i kept it in
So the race with the most accessible spell caster tech path which also has the longest range spell (FG) needs more power to its existing powerful mind-control spell.
On May 16 2013 16:38 Kim Hyuna wrote: I think Zerg should learn how to abuse locust.
This free unit is very good in containing while mass expand behind. I had hard time and hate the most playing with locust spam.
Mass expanding behind doesn't really work because a single warp prism wins you the game then, as zerg won't have any defense at all (and his swarm hosts are all far away). Also you have to keep on spamming units to keep the contain up, once a Protoss has enough force to push through the locusts all the hosts just evaporate in an instant and zerg is flat out dead.
At least, those seem to be the guidelines for midgame swarm host play we have so far.
On May 16 2013 16:38 Kim Hyuna wrote: I think Zerg should learn how to abuse locust.
This free unit is very good in containing while mass expand behind. I had hard time and hate the most playing with locust spam.
Mass expanding behind doesn't really work because a single warp prism wins you the game then, as zerg won't have any defense at all. Also you have to keep on spamming units to keep the contain up, once a Protoss has enough force to push through the locusts all the hosts just evaporate in an instant and zerg is flat out dead.
At least, those seem to be the guidelines for midgame swarm host play we have so far.
I lol'd at this.
Learn to spine it up.
How many times where Zerg spine it up during base race and win?
How many times where Zerg tech switch from hydra/roaches into mass mutas and win?
You should see how TLO spam locust efficiency and win him games easily.
Protoss required at least 3 base to get deathball (i'm taking about ground +3 and air +3) up. By containing him from getting out and getting 3rd easily win you the game UNLESS you screwed it up badly.
On May 16 2013 11:19 -NegativeZero- wrote: 100% disapprove with this change. This doesn't fix the muta problem, all this does is make it easier for zergs to turtle vs mutas. If you want to give zerg a way to actually fight mutas while still suffering the mobility disadvantage that they should vs a flying harass unit, then buff the hydra (or at least its anti-air).
From what I've seen from people here is that mutas are actually weak in a straight up fight, these spores allow you to protect your base without having to have your army there.
That really isn't true. By the time you have a large enough army to be able to beat through their muta/ling/bling and force them to counter attack they will be able to essentially one shot spores. The only difference is they might lose a few more mutas in the process unless the defending zerg player throws up a LOT of spores like 5+ in a line at each base. But that doesn't deal with ling run bys anyways.
NegativeZero is correct here in that muta/ling/bane will beat most compositions if controlled correctly (good splits/flanks etc) until the hive tech ultras come out which will destroy pretty much everything anyways. It is much like fighting marine/marauder/thor except the thor has a way of splashing air and ground. If banes hit roaches/marauder then the muta/ling/bane person will die, but if they hit the infestors/hydras then they will be able to clean up with the mutas. So really once again. NegativeZero is correct that if they want to fix this they need to fix zergs AA. Either our Hydras or Infestors.
Now i know no one wants the infestor roach wars we use to have but Infestor's AA have really been nerfed to shit in ZvZ directly and indirectly. Indirectly the regen on the mutas has surprisingly changed how effective fungal is. While the dmg of the fungal to mutas hasn't changed at all, their ability to regen health along with the direct nerf via the projectile of fungal makes it surprisingly difficult to chain fungal mutas to death. (i would state the number changes but i don't know what it is ). Now while i think this is overall okay because this part means the infestor is a support unit, NEEDING another unit to finish off the splash damage it has. This type of requirement is good for the game.
BUT with the Infested Terrans in their current state of no longer receiving upgrades advantages (which was a stupid nerf that really has made infestor into such a crappy unit that it rarely sees use in any game.) Because before when you were getting upgrades for your roach/hydra and were getting the infestors out you could fungal and throw out IT and know they will actually kill the mutas. This type of combination is the only reason that roach/infestor worked so well in WoL, however this is no longer possible as most zergs assume Muta vs Muta and get Armor. Which makes IT's dps drop significanty.
The issue with the infestors overall lack of AA damage means that the zerg HAS to get hydras out as their first and mostly AA unit before going infestors. But even then the Infestor shouldn't play an AA role and really should only focus on fungaling banelings to keep the hydra's alive if the muta/ling/bane decides to engage the army. Which usually doesn't happen as the muta/ling/bane player should have banes coming in from multiple sides (at least 2) forcing as many fungals as possible. (at least 4) which will pretty much be most of the Infestor's energy. And if this fight happens early enough during the push out then there is no way they are going to be able to stop another round. Easily allowing the zerg to overwhelm the ground based army.
Its really because of these points that the meta game will stay muta vs muta but whoever is losing will throw up 10 spores to have a HUGE defenders advantage that will force the game will go into a super long boring game as neither player will be able to bust the other. BUT this might be a spot that would allow/force one player to get a few bls or some other tech than mutas, but yaaaaaaaaaaaay bl vs bl. Because we all want that right? So yeah this is a stupid buff that really shouldnt change anything UNLESS people are thickheaded enough to think it will really change the issue between ground army vs a muta player.
Ever since i heard the initial buff to spore crawlers i thought this and i know i'm not the only one. Go watch most of the recent shows. I know Suppy pretty much talked about the buff as a bad buff and i would be surprised if more than a few top zergs actually thought it was good and was going to change anything.
On May 16 2013 11:19 -NegativeZero- wrote: 100% disapprove with this change. This doesn't fix the muta problem, all this does is make it easier for zergs to turtle vs mutas. If you want to give zerg a way to actually fight mutas while still suffering the mobility disadvantage that they should vs a flying harass unit, then buff the hydra (or at least its anti-air).
From what I've seen from people here is that mutas are actually weak in a straight up fight, these spores allow you to protect your base without having to have your army there.
BUT with the Infested Terrans in their current state of no longer receiving upgrades advantages (which was a stupid nerf that really has made infestor into such a crappy unit that it rarely sees use in any game.)
Please, no more such rubbish bad design where free units get upgrades automatically. We already have locust free units abuse and not WOL infestor crap where infested marines gets free upgrades from it.
If you recalled how infestor FG and infested marines were abused during WOL days.
On May 16 2013 16:38 Kim Hyuna wrote: I think Zerg should learn how to abuse locust.
This free unit is very good in containing while mass expand behind. I had hard time and hate the most playing with locust spam.
Mass expanding behind doesn't really work because a single warp prism wins you the game then, as zerg won't have any defense at all. Also you have to keep on spamming units to keep the contain up, once a Protoss has enough force to push through the locusts all the hosts just evaporate in an instant and zerg is flat out dead.
At least, those seem to be the guidelines for midgame swarm host play we have so far.
I lol'd at this.
Learn to spine it up.
How many times where Zerg spine it up during base race and win?
How many times where Zerg tech switch from hydra/roaches into mass mutas and win?
You should see how TLO spam locust efficiency and win him games easily.
Protoss required at least 3 base to get deathball (i'm taking about ground +3 and air +3) up. By containing him from getting out and getting 3rd easily win you the game UNLESS you screwed it up badly.
I lol'd at this. At least learn to pick examples that support you. He does it of two base (in TvP) and often stays on two base. And even if he builds a third, he does not drone it up heavily. I don't know where you call this mass expanding... He plays it exactly like I'm saying.
On May 16 2013 17:15 Kim Hyuna wrote: Please, no more such rubbish bad design where free units get upgrades automatically. We already have locust free units abuse and not WOL infestor crap where infested marines gets free upgrades from it.
If you recalled how infestor FG and infested marines were abused during WOL days.
I do. i've been zerg since about a month after the original beta. But Fungal has been nerfed, it doesn't destroy armored units like it use to and requires at least some form of control to be able to land them anyways now. I'm not saying buff fungal growth because its good where it is at overall imo.
Personally i would prefer a hydra buff but i severely doubt that that type of buff is going to happen. So the next area that would actually help would be giving them back the upgrades because they can't abuse FG and IT as FG is not what it once was and i don't see a lot of zergs going mass infestors just to throw out infested terrans.
I don't see It changing anything in ZvT as bio/mine should be fungaled anyways (if a few IT come out it would help deal with medivacs) and may help lategame vs skyterran which is something many zergs are complaining about and might do the same thing for ZvP as it will give zergs another area that they can use for the late game skytoss+storm armies. But wont do too much in any other area other than to soak up damage mainly. However for ZvZ i see it doing the most as fungal is NEEDED for ground armies to compete vs air and some added Infested terrans that can actually do something might be the actual buff required for it to really be viable more than simply a HUGE all in.
And sorry, but a buff like giving infested terrans upgrades is not bad design. a buff like making spore crawlers deal damage specifically to 1 unit (yeah i know corruptor/ovie/bl are bio. but that really isn't going to happen. This buff was made SPECIFICALLY to deal with mtuas) is bad game design. Its sloppy and doesn't look good overall.
On May 16 2013 11:19 -NegativeZero- wrote: 100% disapprove with this change. This doesn't fix the muta problem, all this does is make it easier for zergs to turtle vs mutas. If you want to give zerg a way to actually fight mutas while still suffering the mobility disadvantage that they should vs a flying harass unit, then buff the hydra (or at least its anti-air).
Why do you think BUFFING is the right choice to fix this situation? If you buff the Hydra - even if you only give them "vs biological air" buffs (which is stupid IMO) - you are going to make them much better against every other Zerg air unit (Overlords, Overseers, Corruptors, Broodlords) and disturbe the balance between those ... which might require yet another change ... which will then require another and so on.
Hydras have enough dps to kill anything fast enough and the real problem is that "Mutalisks dont stand still" ... i.e. their speed.
I'd buff hydras so you can split your hydras to defend multiple locations (leave a few at your main, nat, etc.) and they're still strong enough to defend despite being outnumbered. It's the same principle as bio vs mech - fighting mobility with good positioning, a battle of planning where to defend vs. finding gaps in that defense.
With buffed spores, you just spam spores in your base and then move out with your entire army. With buffed hydras, you have to decide exactly how many hydras to leave behind and where to put them to cover the most area most easily.
To be fair, if it was completely up to me I wouldn't do a straight buff on the hydra so much as a complete redesign, moving it closer to its BW form where it costs 75/25 - the increased overall DPS would be compensated by its increased vulnerability to AoE damage.
On May 16 2013 17:56 -NegativeZero- wrote: I'd buff hydras so you can split your hydras to defend multiple locations (leave a few at your main, nat, etc.) and they're still strong enough to defend despite being outnumbered. It's the same principle as bio vs mech - fighting mobility with good positioning, a battle of planning where to defend vs. finding gaps in that defense.
With buffed spores, you just spam spores in your base and then move out with your entire army. With buffed hydras, you have to decide exactly how many hydras to leave behind and where to put them to cover the most area most easily.
To be fair, if it was completely up to me I wouldn't do a straight buff on the hydra so much as a complete redesign, moving it closer to its BW form where it costs 75/25 - the increased overall DPS would be compensated by its increased vulnerability to AoE damage.
I agree with you completely. i would love to see hydra's buffed, however i think the 75/25 would require it do deal less damage and since it is a lair unit it needs to be at LEAST its current dps. but i would LOVE to see zerg actually have a 1 supply unit. Its the whole reason imo that zerg doesn't feel zergy to most people. (Lings are half a supply in my books lol) but with roaches being too powerful as a 1 supply unit it would have to be the hydralisk! however i think that even with the current cost and dmg output of the hydra that if they were simply moved to 1 supply it would help a lot in all areas since they still die so quickly (Hydras are the embodiment of glass cannons lol), making it so their numbers are what will help them beat through the baneling splash or tank or even the psi storm. Even allow roach/hydra/infestor to be able to overwhelm a pure MMM force in the late game, it would be inefficient but it would be zerglike
BUT like i said in my earlier post i don't see blizzard buffing they hydra at all, which is why i think the IT should be the focus. But even that is an awkward spell with what people use the infestor for in ZvZ.
On May 16 2013 00:49 SlaverR wrote: That Terran has not been touched at all is hilarious.
Is it??? Where do you see imbalance? In tourneys? No. In ladder? No. There is 0 imbalance atm, and you are still whining. Why? Because you want your easy wol times back? Well let me tell you, this won't happen. The game is balanced now, all races have a hard time.
You actually see zergs doing FINE vs terran with a WOL composition (muta ling bling) vs the new sick things terrans got (mines, speedvac, hellbats). Can you imagine that? A race is using pure WOL units, and is doing FINE against sick new units. Imagine you start using your new stuff like speedhydras, swarmhosts and vipers. In a few weeks you will feel so embarrassed for complaining so much, and I'm 100% sure of this.
Couldnt agree more. I just realize i've never thought about that, WoL zerg style (with the minor ultra/muta buff) is going head to head with the completely revamped terran from HotS. Thats the moment you notice how bullshit Wings of Liberty TvZ was.
That would be true, if mutas didn't get a huge buff. (O you say "minor" ultra/muta buff "minor" )
The game is pretty balanced at pro level, the only MU that is somewhat problematic is still TvZ, Terran is beating Zerg about as much as Zerg beat Terran before Hots, when terran's rightfully QQ'd nonstop about TvZ.
Stats for past 15 days: PvT 188–179 (51%) PvZ 263–244 (52%) TvZ 254–191 (57%)
Could also be, that Zergplayers who gained some ranks and leagues due to Zerg being slightly OP in WoL, now have to face the Terrans that may originally be better and now have the tools again to strike back :D Another reason why I think there should be a change in game (units) or metagame is, that when watching TvZ it feels like terran have the same unit composition every game (besides they do the awkward mech thing :D).
I don't think TvZ is going to go trough any major changes unless something gets changed, it's pretty stable how it's played right now. Honestly the matchup might be actually balanced once you get to the skill level of the very best zergs(I'm talking Life/Roro/Soulkey skill), I don't think Zerg is going to beat terran by meta-gaming, there isn't much to meta-game vs biomine, it's good vs whatever zerg does. That being said, the amount of terrans with ridiculous win ratios at TvZ at master's is rather silly.
could be you're right and it was just an assumption of my side ofc I can't know anything for sure. TvZ really seems figured out more than other matchups. You mention the absolute Top Zerg and you are right, against the top T (Taeja, Innovation, Flash) there should be 50% Winrate and I have no data that proves it is or isn't that way but it SHOULD be that way, maybe the 7 additional % come from not so well playing T? Or maybe the 57% will go more into the 50% direction. As stated before I have no problem with patching some things, as long as nothing gets patched to infinity. And I big wish is that some mechanics get changed for the 2nd addon. For instance that if one race has the perfect composition (like in flash vs parting on Daybreak) it shouldnt be impossible to win for the Terran, especially when the terran is in front the whole game. Or some changes to Zerg Larva mechanic that could prevent the Zerg from mass tech switch which is so hard to deal with for other races that cannot rebuild a complete other type of an army so fast. But that may stay a wet dream as Blizzard surely won't make that huge changes to the game after such a stable state
On May 16 2013 11:19 -NegativeZero- wrote: 100% disapprove with this change. This doesn't fix the muta problem, all this does is make it easier for zergs to turtle vs mutas. If you want to give zerg a way to actually fight mutas while still suffering the mobility disadvantage that they should vs a flying harass unit, then buff the hydra (or at least its anti-air).
Why do you think BUFFING is the right choice to fix this situation? If you buff the Hydra - even if you only give them "vs biological air" buffs (which is stupid IMO) - you are going to make them much better against every other Zerg air unit (Overlords, Overseers, Corruptors, Broodlords) and disturbe the balance between those ... which might require yet another change ... which will then require another and so on.
Hydras have enough dps to kill anything fast enough and the real problem is that "Mutalisks dont stand still" ... i.e. their speed.
I'd buff hydras so you can split your hydras to defend multiple locations (leave a few at your main, nat, etc.) and they're still strong enough to defend despite being outnumbered. It's the same principle as bio vs mech - fighting mobility with good positioning, a battle of planning where to defend vs. finding gaps in that defense.
With buffed spores, you just spam spores in your base and then move out with your entire army. With buffed hydras, you have to decide exactly how many hydras to leave behind and where to put them to cover the most area most easily.
To be fair, if it was completely up to me I wouldn't do a straight buff on the hydra so much as a complete redesign, moving it closer to its BW form where it costs 75/25 - the increased overall DPS would be compensated by its increased vulnerability to AoE damage.
You didnt answer my question ... because your buffed Hydras will affect the balance between them and other units as well (depending on the type of buffing - vs bio air, vs air, vs all ?? - ... which you didnt say). It is a stupid concept in any case and the right way is to slow down the Mutalisks by a ton ... to maybe 3.5 (from 4) ... and have them rely on the regeneration alone as a survival asset. Once that is done you can defend anything much easier with the current Hydras due to superior range and dps. Nerfing Mutas is the easiest way to do it ... and buffing Hydras against everything is the absolute worst one (with the partial buffing only a tiny bit better).
You really want a 4+1 range Hydra instead of a 5+1 one?
How does a "BW-ish" Hydra become more vulnerable to AoE? The reduced range makes it more vulnerable (and kinda useless) against anything and totally defeats the point of the Roach because their ranges are too similar then and using both would be too complicated.
On May 16 2013 17:56 -NegativeZero- wrote: I'd buff hydras so you can split your hydras to defend multiple locations (leave a few at your main, nat, etc.) and they're still strong enough to defend despite being outnumbered. It's the same principle as bio vs mech - fighting mobility with good positioning, a battle of planning where to defend vs. finding gaps in that defense.
With buffed spores, you just spam spores in your base and then move out with your entire army. With buffed hydras, you have to decide exactly how many hydras to leave behind and where to put them to cover the most area most easily.
To be fair, if it was completely up to me I wouldn't do a straight buff on the hydra so much as a complete redesign, moving it closer to its BW form where it costs 75/25 - the increased overall DPS would be compensated by its increased vulnerability to AoE damage.
I agree with you completely. i would love to see hydra's buffed, however i think the 75/25 would require it do deal less damage and since it is a lair unit it needs to be at LEAST its current dps. but i would LOVE to see zerg actually have a 1 supply unit. Its the whole reason imo that zerg doesn't feel zergy to most people. (Lings are half a supply in my books lol) but with roaches being too powerful as a 1 supply unit it would have to be the hydralisk! however i think that even with the current cost and dmg output of the hydra that if they were simply moved to 1 supply it would help a lot in all areas since they still die so quickly (Hydras are the embodiment of glass cannons lol), making it so their numbers are what will help them beat through the baneling splash or tank or even the psi storm. Even allow roach/hydra/infestor to be able to overwhelm a pure MMM force in the late game, it would be inefficient but it would be zerglike
BUT like i said in my earlier post i don't see blizzard buffing they hydra at all, which is why i think the IT should be the focus. But even that is an awkward spell with what people use the infestor for in ZvZ.
On May 16 2013 23:58 Targe wrote: lol buff Hydra AtA vs. bio
lol. for the last month i've been working hard to get Roach/hydra/infestor to work and it actually works really well against most compositions of terrans as long as you play it correctly. But it gets absolutely crushed bypure bio, essentially marauder heavy compositions with a lot of medivacts (like 16+). Any type of buff for the hydra's will directly affect this MU which is why i say it most likely wont happen because blizzard is really not a fan of the hydra since it was a big unit in bw lol.
This is perfect for me as a zerg. Have been experimenting with 3 base mass spore into infestor hydra in the old patch. Works pretty well, and will work even better now. gg blizz.
On May 16 2013 00:49 SlaverR wrote: That Terran has not been touched at all is hilarious.
Is it??? Where do you see imbalance? In tourneys? No. In ladder? No. There is 0 imbalance atm, and you are still whining. Why? Because you want your easy wol times back? Well let me tell you, this won't happen. The game is balanced now, all races have a hard time.
You actually see zergs doing FINE vs terran with a WOL composition (muta ling bling) vs the new sick things terrans got (mines, speedvac, hellbats). Can you imagine that? A race is using pure WOL units, and is doing FINE against sick new units. Imagine you start using your new stuff like speedhydras, swarmhosts and vipers. In a few weeks you will feel so embarrassed for complaining so much, and I'm 100% sure of this.
Implying zerg even has the option to use HotS units in the first 15 minutes of the game. SH just isn't a good unit vs non-mech terran, and everything else that's new for zerg comes at hive. Reaper/mine/hellbat/speedvacs are there for all of the early and mid game.
With the infestor being nerfed, and with it now being even worse than before against drop play... it's really not a great option. Zergs are going muta/ling/bling because it's the only half decent option for fighting terran now... it's hardly because "lol my race is so good I don't even need to use HotS units".
On May 16 2013 00:49 SlaverR wrote: That Terran has not been touched at all is hilarious.
Is it??? Where do you see imbalance? In tourneys? No. In ladder? No. There is 0 imbalance atm, and you are still whining. Why? Because you want your easy wol times back? Well let me tell you, this won't happen. The game is balanced now, all races have a hard time.
You actually see zergs doing FINE vs terran with a WOL composition (muta ling bling) vs the new sick things terrans got (mines, speedvac, hellbats). Can you imagine that? A race is using pure WOL units, and is doing FINE against sick new units. Imagine you start using your new stuff like speedhydras, swarmhosts and vipers. In a few weeks you will feel so embarrassed for complaining so much, and I'm 100% sure of this.
Implying zerg even has the option to use HotS units in the first 15 minutes of the game. SH just isn't a good unit vs non-mech terran, and everything else that's new for zerg comes at hive. Reaper/mine/hellbat/speedvacs are there for all of the early and mid game.
With the infestor being nerfed, and with it now being even worse than before against drop play... it's really not a great option. Zergs are going muta/ling/bling because it's the only half decent option for fighting terran now... it's hardly because "lol my race is so good I don't even need to use HotS units".
You bring a valid point, Zerg have been the only hit-and-run race for a long time with ling/bling/muta and now that other two races have their own hit-and-run compositions (e.g. Phoniex, oracle, speedprism) it's only natural to say "it takes a thief to catch a thief."
But if your point were correct that would mean Terran mech and protoss colossi deathball would auto-lose to said muta/ling/bling which historically is not true, that would Zerg siege style (SH as core unit) CAN work vs. muta/ling/bling as well
On May 16 2013 00:49 SlaverR wrote: That Terran has not been touched at all is hilarious.
Is it??? Where do you see imbalance? In tourneys? No. In ladder? No. There is 0 imbalance atm, and you are still whining. Why? Because you want your easy wol times back? Well let me tell you, this won't happen. The game is balanced now, all races have a hard time.
You actually see zergs doing FINE vs terran with a WOL composition (muta ling bling) vs the new sick things terrans got (mines, speedvac, hellbats). Can you imagine that? A race is using pure WOL units, and is doing FINE against sick new units. Imagine you start using your new stuff like speedhydras, swarmhosts and vipers. In a few weeks you will feel so embarrassed for complaining so much, and I'm 100% sure of this.
Implying zerg even has the option to use HotS units in the first 15 minutes of the game. SH just isn't a good unit vs non-mech terran, and everything else that's new for zerg comes at hive. Reaper/mine/hellbat/speedvacs are there for all of the early and mid game.
With the infestor being nerfed, and with it now being even worse than before against drop play... it's really not a great option. Zergs are going muta/ling/bling because it's the only half decent option for fighting terran now... it's hardly because "lol my race is so good I don't even need to use HotS units".
On May 16 2013 00:49 SlaverR wrote: That Terran has not been touched at all is hilarious.
Is it??? Where do you see imbalance? In tourneys? No. In ladder? No. There is 0 imbalance atm, and you are still whining. Why? Because you want your easy wol times back? Well let me tell you, this won't happen. The game is balanced now, all races have a hard time.
You actually see zergs doing FINE vs terran with a WOL composition (muta ling bling) vs the new sick things terrans got (mines, speedvac, hellbats). Can you imagine that? A race is using pure WOL units, and is doing FINE against sick new units. Imagine you start using your new stuff like speedhydras, swarmhosts and vipers. In a few weeks you will feel so embarrassed for complaining so much, and I'm 100% sure of this.
Implying zerg even has the option to use HotS units in the first 15 minutes of the game. SH just isn't a good unit vs non-mech terran, and everything else that's new for zerg comes at hive. Reaper/mine/hellbat/speedvacs are there for all of the early and mid game.
With the infestor being nerfed, and with it now being even worse than before against drop play... it's really not a great option. Zergs are going muta/ling/bling because it's the only half decent option for fighting terran now... it's hardly because "lol my race is so good I don't even need to use HotS units".
On May 16 2013 00:49 SlaverR wrote: That Terran has not been touched at all is hilarious.
Is it??? Where do you see imbalance? In tourneys? No. In ladder? No. There is 0 imbalance atm, and you are still whining. Why? Because you want your easy wol times back? Well let me tell you, this won't happen. The game is balanced now, all races have a hard time.
You actually see zergs doing FINE vs terran with a WOL composition (muta ling bling) vs the new sick things terrans got (mines, speedvac, hellbats). Can you imagine that? A race is using pure WOL units, and is doing FINE against sick new units. Imagine you start using your new stuff like speedhydras, swarmhosts and vipers. In a few weeks you will feel so embarrassed for complaining so much, and I'm 100% sure of this.
Implying zerg even has the option to use HotS units in the first 15 minutes of the game. SH just isn't a good unit vs non-mech terran, and everything else that's new for zerg comes at hive. Reaper/mine/hellbat/speedvacs are there for all of the early and mid game.
With the infestor being nerfed, and with it now being even worse than before against drop play... it's really not a great option. Zergs are going muta/ling/bling because it's the only half decent option for fighting terran now... it's hardly because "lol my race is so good I don't even need to use HotS units".
On May 16 2013 00:49 SlaverR wrote: That Terran has not been touched at all is hilarious.
Is it??? Where do you see imbalance? In tourneys? No. In ladder? No. There is 0 imbalance atm, and you are still whining. Why? Because you want your easy wol times back? Well let me tell you, this won't happen. The game is balanced now, all races have a hard time.
You actually see zergs doing FINE vs terran with a WOL composition (muta ling bling) vs the new sick things terrans got (mines, speedvac, hellbats). Can you imagine that? A race is using pure WOL units, and is doing FINE against sick new units. Imagine you start using your new stuff like speedhydras, swarmhosts and vipers. In a few weeks you will feel so embarrassed for complaining so much, and I'm 100% sure of this.
Implying zerg even has the option to use HotS units in the first 15 minutes of the game. SH just isn't a good unit vs non-mech terran, and everything else that's new for zerg comes at hive. Reaper/mine/hellbat/speedvacs are there for all of the early and mid game.
With the infestor being nerfed, and with it now being even worse than before against drop play... it's really not a great option. Zergs are going muta/ling/bling because it's the only half decent option for fighting terran now... it's hardly because "lol my race is so good I don't even need to use HotS units".
On May 16 2013 00:49 SlaverR wrote: That Terran has not been touched at all is hilarious.
Is it??? Where do you see imbalance? In tourneys? No. In ladder? No. There is 0 imbalance atm, and you are still whining. Why? Because you want your easy wol times back? Well let me tell you, this won't happen. The game is balanced now, all races have a hard time.
You actually see zergs doing FINE vs terran with a WOL composition (muta ling bling) vs the new sick things terrans got (mines, speedvac, hellbats). Can you imagine that? A race is using pure WOL units, and is doing FINE against sick new units. Imagine you start using your new stuff like speedhydras, swarmhosts and vipers. In a few weeks you will feel so embarrassed for complaining so much, and I'm 100% sure of this.
Implying zerg even has the option to use HotS units in the first 15 minutes of the game. SH just isn't a good unit vs non-mech terran, and everything else that's new for zerg comes at hive. Reaper/mine/hellbat/speedvacs are there for all of the early and mid game.
With the infestor being nerfed, and with it now being even worse than before against drop play... it's really not a great option. Zergs are going muta/ling/bling because it's the only half decent option for fighting terran now... it's hardly because "lol my race is so good I don't even need to use HotS units".
Then stephano comes and stomps korean terrans with ultralisks.
So yes, in zerg words, the swarmhost is "worthless" , just like the ultralisk in wol ;d
where in that post did it talk about ultras being trash? He was talking about the first 15 mins when you rarely have 6+ ultras.
Read the threads man, there were so many complaints on the ultralisk.
And that somehow has something to do with swarm host viability vs Terran? some random guys complaining about Ultras in WoL?
Oh yeah, because now the SH complains don't come from random guys? Seriously... You zergs are just so stubborn. Believe me, swarmhosts covered by an army are really strong. They would make mines completely useless.
For example: ever thought about a pure ling into mass swarmhost strat? Like stephano did with pure ling into mass infestor hive? Lings are so cheap, so you can put your money into spines, spores and swarmhosts.
On May 16 2013 00:49 SlaverR wrote: That Terran has not been touched at all is hilarious.
Is it??? Where do you see imbalance? In tourneys? No. In ladder? No. There is 0 imbalance atm, and you are still whining. Why? Because you want your easy wol times back? Well let me tell you, this won't happen. The game is balanced now, all races have a hard time.
You actually see zergs doing FINE vs terran with a WOL composition (muta ling bling) vs the new sick things terrans got (mines, speedvac, hellbats). Can you imagine that? A race is using pure WOL units, and is doing FINE against sick new units. Imagine you start using your new stuff like speedhydras, swarmhosts and vipers. In a few weeks you will feel so embarrassed for complaining so much, and I'm 100% sure of this.
Implying zerg even has the option to use HotS units in the first 15 minutes of the game. SH just isn't a good unit vs non-mech terran, and everything else that's new for zerg comes at hive. Reaper/mine/hellbat/speedvacs are there for all of the early and mid game.
With the infestor being nerfed, and with it now being even worse than before against drop play... it's really not a great option. Zergs are going muta/ling/bling because it's the only half decent option for fighting terran now... it's hardly because "lol my race is so good I don't even need to use HotS units".
Then stephano comes and stomps korean terrans with ultralisks.
So yes, in zerg words, the swarmhost is "worthless" , just like the ultralisk in wol ;d
where in that post did it talk about ultras being trash? He was talking about the first 15 mins when you rarely have 6+ ultras.
Read the threads man, there were so many complaints on the ultralisk.
And that somehow has something to do with swarm host viability vs Terran? some random guys complaining about Ultras in WoL?
Oh yeah, because now the SH complains don't come from random guys? Seriously... You zergs are just so stubborn. Believe me, swarmhosts covered by an army are really strong. They would make mines completely useless.
For example: ever thought about a pure ling into mass swarmhost strat? Like stephano did with pure ling into mass infestor hive? Lings are so cheap, so you can put your money into spines, spores and swarmhosts.
I believe you when you say swarm hosts are really strong when covered. But you have to understand how mobile Terran are in the match up, and static defense can slow down drops it doesn't prevent them.
It also leaves you a shity way of killing off medivacs, which is pretty important, while not even giving you half as many options as the standard ling/banelin/muta build which easily transitions into ultra or bl with infester support.
What would a swarm host army do against Terran bio that makes it a good compromise to lose the mobility, counter attack options, upgrade synergy, strong timings and drop defense?
On May 16 2013 00:49 SlaverR wrote: That Terran has not been touched at all is hilarious.
Is it??? Where do you see imbalance? In tourneys? No. In ladder? No. There is 0 imbalance atm, and you are still whining. Why? Because you want your easy wol times back? Well let me tell you, this won't happen. The game is balanced now, all races have a hard time.
You actually see zergs doing FINE vs terran with a WOL composition (muta ling bling) vs the new sick things terrans got (mines, speedvac, hellbats). Can you imagine that? A race is using pure WOL units, and is doing FINE against sick new units. Imagine you start using your new stuff like speedhydras, swarmhosts and vipers. In a few weeks you will feel so embarrassed for complaining so much, and I'm 100% sure of this.
Implying zerg even has the option to use HotS units in the first 15 minutes of the game. SH just isn't a good unit vs non-mech terran, and everything else that's new for zerg comes at hive. Reaper/mine/hellbat/speedvacs are there for all of the early and mid game.
With the infestor being nerfed, and with it now being even worse than before against drop play... it's really not a great option. Zergs are going muta/ling/bling because it's the only half decent option for fighting terran now... it's hardly because "lol my race is so good I don't even need to use HotS units".
Then stephano comes and stomps korean terrans with ultralisks.
So yes, in zerg words, the swarmhost is "worthless" , just like the ultralisk in wol ;d
where in that post did it talk about ultras being trash? He was talking about the first 15 mins when you rarely have 6+ ultras.
Read the threads man, there were so many complaints on the ultralisk.
And that somehow has something to do with swarm host viability vs Terran? some random guys complaining about Ultras in WoL?
Oh yeah, because now the SH complains don't come from random guys? Seriously... You zergs are just so stubborn. Believe me, swarmhosts covered by an army are really strong. They would make mines completely useless.
For example: ever thought about a pure ling into mass swarmhost strat? Like stephano did with pure ling into mass infestor hive? Lings are so cheap, so you can put your money into spines, spores and swarmhosts.
I believe you when you say swarm hosts are really strong when covered. But you have to understand how mobile Terran are in the match up, and static defense can slow down drops it doesn't prevent them.
It also leaves you a shity way of killing off medivacs, which is pretty important, while not even giving you half as many options as the standard ling/banelin/muta build which easily transitions into ultra or bl with infester support.
What would a swarm host army do against Terran bio that makes it a good compromise to lose the mobility, counter attack options, upgrade synergy, strong timings and drop defense?
Yeah, swarm hosts are terrible at defending drops. On the other hand, they destroy bio in straight-up engagements, especially with a little baneling support. The only way to fight a swarm host composition head-on is to find way to avoid engagements, then kill a round of locusts and advance forward suddenly, getting on top of the swarm hosts in between locust rounds. The only way to fight banelings is to kite and retreat and target-fire until all the banelings are dead. You can't retreat and advance at the same time, so if you use the banelings to force a bio army away until new locusts spawn, you can just force the Terran army to keep taking chip damage from locusts without getting to hit the swarm hosts.
Suppose you build a play style around the following principles: 1) Swarm hosts keep pressure on the Terran. Speedlings are used to scout forward so you can safely advance the swarm hosts, but the lings don't need to be in large numbers and aren't the primary damage-dealers, so you don't need melee upgrades for your lings.
2) Banelings accompany the swarm hosts to prevent Terran bio from getting the jump on your swarm hosts. Overseers fly behind the locust waves to spot widow mines. Widow mines might be able to take out some locust waves, but not without losing a few widow mines, and locusts are free. Queens and overlords should accompany your army to spread creep wherever you go. Queens, banelings, and locusts all benefit from ranged attack upgrades.
3) The Pneumatized Carapace upgrade should come out relatively quickly. Overlords should be spread very well to spot for drops. With the speed upgrade a viking cannot easily clear all overlords and make drops invisible again; just move the overlords, send something to kill the viking, and move the overlords back very quickly. Any medivac that moves out, you should see coming well in advance.
4) Speed hydralisks will respond to drops. Hydralisks are not as fast as zerglings and mutas, but with good overlord spread you should see drops in time to respond. With some static defense around to delay drops until hydralisks arrive to defend, you should be able to avoid losing excessive drones or important tech structures. Hydralisks also benefit from ranged attack upgrades.
5) Late-game composition is swarm host + hydralisk + vipers, with overseers to spot widow mines. With detection, widow mines are quite ineffective against this composition. Locust/hydralisk trades very well against bio, even before the viper support arrives.
swarmhost /hydra is the most awful thing to play against as bio terran. I think its impossible, like it is impossible to play pure bio against full mech.
5 or so Hydras in the back, + spines / spores shut down medivac drops so brutally hard, and swarmhost vs bio is extremely efficient. As a bio terran, its near impossible to charge in and kill them shs, exept the zerg makes a big mistake. Luckily Zerg mostly have no idea how to position strategily, so they often make mistakes , that no terran would do when meching (a click with bunch of lings or roaches is all they know it seems.. they kind of move shs directly in front of your nose and burrow them, with out cover , or run into a place where they get sourrounded by tanks and have no way to retreat. it doesnt work like that...)
The only way to deal with swarmhosts as terrans is mech. 15+ siegetanks, covered by vikings, to kill locust waves without loosing resources, unsiege, move forward. this is the only way to gain ground, without wasting minerals. force zerg to retreat, or loose some shs. Its like playing against terran mech, and i would say that swarmhost / hydra is the Zergmech, .Iits awsome in cost effectivness, u cannot go air heavy due to hydras / spores / spines camping , and slowly get pushed back. The most important thing is to watch out for broodlord transition, and having the starports at the ready.
On May 17 2013 12:18 Holo82 wrote: swarmhost /hydra is the most awful thing to play against as bio terran. I think its impossible, like it is impossible to play pure bio against full mech.
5 or so Hydras in the back, + spines / spores shut down medivac drops so brutally hard, and swarmhost vs bio is extremely efficient. As a bio terran, its near impossible to charge in and kill them shs, exept the zerg makes a big mistake. Luckily Zerg mostly have no idea how to position strategily, so they often make mistakes , that no terran would do when meching (a click with bunch of lings or roaches is all they know it seems.. they kind of move shs directly in front of your nose and burrow them, with out cover , or run into a place where they get sourrounded by tanks and have no way to retreat. it doesnt work like that...)
The only way to deal with swarmhosts as terrans is mech. 15+ siegetanks, covered by vikings, to kill locust waves without loosing resources, unsiege, move forward. this is the only way to gain ground, without wasting minerals. force zerg to retreat, or loose some shs. Its like playing against terran mech, and i would say that swarmhost / hydra is the Zergmech, .Iits awsome in cost effectivness, u cannot go air heavy due to hydras / spores / spines camping , and slowly get pushed back. The most important thing is to watch out for broodlord transition, and having the starports at the ready.
Really? I've had an easier time with bio against swarm hosts than with mech. With mech I have to do risky tank movements to get in a position to threaten the Zerg. With bio I can just counter-attack with my army and the swarm hosts have quite a bit of trouble. I think the swarm hosts are still really good if used correctly; but I'd much rather play bio/mine or bio/tank against them than mech.
Of course pure bio without anything from the factory seems to just die in an engagement. As far as I can tell, you need some kind of splash against locusts.
Will be interesting to see if this affects the matchup too significantly and we'll end up with no mutas again. Although probably not since mutas are used more for map control anyway.
On May 16 2013 00:49 SlaverR wrote: That Terran has not been touched at all is hilarious.
Is it??? Where do you see imbalance? In tourneys? No. In ladder? No. There is 0 imbalance atm, and you are still whining. Why? Because you want your easy wol times back? Well let me tell you, this won't happen. The game is balanced now, all races have a hard time.
You actually see zergs doing FINE vs terran with a WOL composition (muta ling bling) vs the new sick things terrans got (mines, speedvac, hellbats). Can you imagine that? A race is using pure WOL units, and is doing FINE against sick new units. Imagine you start using your new stuff like speedhydras, swarmhosts and vipers. In a few weeks you will feel so embarrassed for complaining so much, and I'm 100% sure of this.
Implying zerg even has the option to use HotS units in the first 15 minutes of the game. SH just isn't a good unit vs non-mech terran, and everything else that's new for zerg comes at hive. Reaper/mine/hellbat/speedvacs are there for all of the early and mid game.
With the infestor being nerfed, and with it now being even worse than before against drop play... it's really not a great option. Zergs are going muta/ling/bling because it's the only half decent option for fighting terran now... it's hardly because "lol my race is so good I don't even need to use HotS units".
Then stephano comes and stomps korean terrans with ultralisks.
So yes, in zerg words, the swarmhost is "worthless" , just like the ultralisk in wol ;d
where in that post did it talk about ultras being trash? He was talking about the first 15 mins when you rarely have 6+ ultras.
Read the threads man, there were so many complaints on the ultralisk.
And that somehow has something to do with swarm host viability vs Terran? some random guys complaining about Ultras in WoL?
Oh yeah, because now the SH complains don't come from random guys? Seriously... You zergs are just so stubborn. Believe me, swarmhosts covered by an army are really strong. They would make mines completely useless.
For example: ever thought about a pure ling into mass swarmhost strat? Like stephano did with pure ling into mass infestor hive? Lings are so cheap, so you can put your money into spines, spores and swarmhosts.
I believe you when you say swarm hosts are really strong when covered. But you have to understand how mobile Terran are in the match up, and static defense can slow down drops it doesn't prevent them.
It also leaves you a shity way of killing off medivacs, which is pretty important, while not even giving you half as many options as the standard ling/banelin/muta build which easily transitions into ultra or bl with infester support.
What would a swarm host army do against Terran bio that makes it a good compromise to lose the mobility, counter attack options, upgrade synergy, strong timings and drop defense?
Yeah, swarm hosts are terrible at defending drops. On the other hand, they destroy bio in straight-up engagements, especially with a little baneling support. The only way to fight a swarm host composition head-on is to find way to avoid engagements, then kill a round of locusts and advance forward suddenly, getting on top of the swarm hosts in between locust rounds. The only way to fight banelings is to kite and retreat and target-fire until all the banelings are dead. You can't retreat and advance at the same time, so if you use the banelings to force a bio army away until new locusts spawn, you can just force the Terran army to keep taking chip damage from locusts without getting to hit the swarm hosts.
Suppose you build a play style around the following principles: 1) Swarm hosts keep pressure on the Terran. Speedlings are used to scout forward so you can safely advance the swarm hosts, but the lings don't need to be in large numbers and aren't the primary damage-dealers, so you don't need melee upgrades for your lings.
2) Banelings accompany the swarm hosts to prevent Terran bio from getting the jump on your swarm hosts. Overseers fly behind the locust waves to spot widow mines. Widow mines might be able to take out some locust waves, but not without losing a few widow mines, and locusts are free. Queens and overlords should accompany your army to spread creep wherever you go. Queens, banelings, and locusts all benefit from ranged attack upgrades.
3) The Pneumatized Carapace upgrade should come out relatively quickly. Overlords should be spread very well to spot for drops. With the speed upgrade a viking cannot easily clear all overlords and make drops invisible again; just move the overlords, send something to kill the viking, and move the overlords back very quickly. Any medivac that moves out, you should see coming well in advance.
4) Speed hydralisks will respond to drops. Hydralisks are not as fast as zerglings and mutas, but with good overlord spread you should see drops in time to respond. With some static defense around to delay drops until hydralisks arrive to defend, you should be able to avoid losing excessive drones or important tech structures. Hydralisks also benefit from ranged attack upgrades.
5) Late-game composition is swarm host + hydralisk + vipers, with overseers to spot widow mines. With detection, widow mines are quite ineffective against this composition. Locust/hydralisk trades very well against bio, even before the viper support arrives.
Seems pretty good to me.
lol. I can see you dont watch high level sc2 (like GSL and PL). How can you hold the 140 +2/+2 supply push from T while also securing or running your 4th base? One nice scan from T between the Nat and the 3rd, when he sees a few spines/Queens/SH/Banes he will drop you with 4 MediVacs or more. Why should T fight head on? What are you gonna do when T takes his 4th and 5th with planetaries in some corners of the map with a few widowmines to spot if your army moves there? You gonna commit to take out the base?
Is it??? Where do you see imbalance? In tourneys? No. In ladder? No. There is 0 imbalance atm, and you are still whining. Why? Because you want your easy wol times back? Well let me tell you, this won't happen. The game is balanced now, all races have a hard time.
You actually see zergs doing FINE vs terran with a WOL composition (muta ling bling) vs the new sick things terrans got (mines, speedvac, hellbats). Can you imagine that? A race is using pure WOL units, and is doing FINE against sick new units. Imagine you start using your new stuff like speedhydras, swarmhosts and vipers. In a few weeks you will feel so embarrassed for complaining so much, and I'm 100% sure of this.
Implying zerg even has the option to use HotS units in the first 15 minutes of the game. SH just isn't a good unit vs non-mech terran, and everything else that's new for zerg comes at hive. Reaper/mine/hellbat/speedvacs are there for all of the early and mid game.
With the infestor being nerfed, and with it now being even worse than before against drop play... it's really not a great option. Zergs are going muta/ling/bling because it's the only half decent option for fighting terran now... it's hardly because "lol my race is so good I don't even need to use HotS units".
Then stephano comes and stomps korean terrans with ultralisks.
So yes, in zerg words, the swarmhost is "worthless" , just like the ultralisk in wol ;d
where in that post did it talk about ultras being trash? He was talking about the first 15 mins when you rarely have 6+ ultras.
Read the threads man, there were so many complaints on the ultralisk.
And that somehow has something to do with swarm host viability vs Terran? some random guys complaining about Ultras in WoL?
Oh yeah, because now the SH complains don't come from random guys? Seriously... You zergs are just so stubborn. Believe me, swarmhosts covered by an army are really strong. They would make mines completely useless.
For example: ever thought about a pure ling into mass swarmhost strat? Like stephano did with pure ling into mass infestor hive? Lings are so cheap, so you can put your money into spines, spores and swarmhosts.
I believe you when you say swarm hosts are really strong when covered. But you have to understand how mobile Terran are in the match up, and static defense can slow down drops it doesn't prevent them.
It also leaves you a shity way of killing off medivacs, which is pretty important, while not even giving you half as many options as the standard ling/banelin/muta build which easily transitions into ultra or bl with infester support.
What would a swarm host army do against Terran bio that makes it a good compromise to lose the mobility, counter attack options, upgrade synergy, strong timings and drop defense?
Yeah, swarm hosts are terrible at defending drops. On the other hand, they destroy bio in straight-up engagements, especially with a little baneling support. The only way to fight a swarm host composition head-on is to find way to avoid engagements, then kill a round of locusts and advance forward suddenly, getting on top of the swarm hosts in between locust rounds. The only way to fight banelings is to kite and retreat and target-fire until all the banelings are dead. You can't retreat and advance at the same time, so if you use the banelings to force a bio army away until new locusts spawn, you can just force the Terran army to keep taking chip damage from locusts without getting to hit the swarm hosts.
Suppose you build a play style around the following principles: 1) Swarm hosts keep pressure on the Terran. Speedlings are used to scout forward so you can safely advance the swarm hosts, but the lings don't need to be in large numbers and aren't the primary damage-dealers, so you don't need melee upgrades for your lings.
2) Banelings accompany the swarm hosts to prevent Terran bio from getting the jump on your swarm hosts. Overseers fly behind the locust waves to spot widow mines. Widow mines might be able to take out some locust waves, but not without losing a few widow mines, and locusts are free. Queens and overlords should accompany your army to spread creep wherever you go. Queens, banelings, and locusts all benefit from ranged attack upgrades.
3) The Pneumatized Carapace upgrade should come out relatively quickly. Overlords should be spread very well to spot for drops. With the speed upgrade a viking cannot easily clear all overlords and make drops invisible again; just move the overlords, send something to kill the viking, and move the overlords back very quickly. Any medivac that moves out, you should see coming well in advance.
4) Speed hydralisks will respond to drops. Hydralisks are not as fast as zerglings and mutas, but with good overlord spread you should see drops in time to respond. With some static defense around to delay drops until hydralisks arrive to defend, you should be able to avoid losing excessive drones or important tech structures. Hydralisks also benefit from ranged attack upgrades.
5) Late-game composition is swarm host + hydralisk + vipers, with overseers to spot widow mines. With detection, widow mines are quite ineffective against this composition. Locust/hydralisk trades very well against bio, even before the viper support arrives.
Seems pretty good to me.
lol. I can see you dont watch high level sc2 (like GSL and PL). How can you hold the 140 +2/+2 supply push from T while also securing or running your 4th base? One nice scan from T between the Nat and the 3rd, when he sees a few spines/Queens/SH/Banes he will drop you with 4 MediVacs or more. Why should T fight head on? What are you gonna do when T takes his 4th and 5th with planetaries in some corners of the map with a few widowmines to spot if your army moves there? You gonna commit to take out the base?
Nydus there, kill planetary, nydus out? Or just not give him that much vision but hunt down his widow mines?
And while I do think your concern is valid, there is another matchup where there is a largely immobile army vs a player who can drop 4 medivacs in his main: TvT. If you go either mech or biomech, which are the most popular playstyles, your army isn't too mobile, and you also have to worry about doomdrops. Aditionally the race which has most trouble breaking siege lines is terran. So as terran you really don't want a sieged up hostile terran army in your main. Solution? Making sure you see it coming, and have enough missile turrets ringing your base that a significant part of his army won't make it.
Is it??? Where do you see imbalance? In tourneys? No. In ladder? No. There is 0 imbalance atm, and you are still whining. Why? Because you want your easy wol times back? Well let me tell you, this won't happen. The game is balanced now, all races have a hard time.
You actually see zergs doing FINE vs terran with a WOL composition (muta ling bling) vs the new sick things terrans got (mines, speedvac, hellbats). Can you imagine that? A race is using pure WOL units, and is doing FINE against sick new units. Imagine you start using your new stuff like speedhydras, swarmhosts and vipers. In a few weeks you will feel so embarrassed for complaining so much, and I'm 100% sure of this.
Implying zerg even has the option to use HotS units in the first 15 minutes of the game. SH just isn't a good unit vs non-mech terran, and everything else that's new for zerg comes at hive. Reaper/mine/hellbat/speedvacs are there for all of the early and mid game.
With the infestor being nerfed, and with it now being even worse than before against drop play... it's really not a great option. Zergs are going muta/ling/bling because it's the only half decent option for fighting terran now... it's hardly because "lol my race is so good I don't even need to use HotS units".
Then stephano comes and stomps korean terrans with ultralisks.
So yes, in zerg words, the swarmhost is "worthless" , just like the ultralisk in wol ;d
where in that post did it talk about ultras being trash? He was talking about the first 15 mins when you rarely have 6+ ultras.
Read the threads man, there were so many complaints on the ultralisk.
And that somehow has something to do with swarm host viability vs Terran? some random guys complaining about Ultras in WoL?
Oh yeah, because now the SH complains don't come from random guys? Seriously... You zergs are just so stubborn. Believe me, swarmhosts covered by an army are really strong. They would make mines completely useless.
For example: ever thought about a pure ling into mass swarmhost strat? Like stephano did with pure ling into mass infestor hive? Lings are so cheap, so you can put your money into spines, spores and swarmhosts.
I believe you when you say swarm hosts are really strong when covered. But you have to understand how mobile Terran are in the match up, and static defense can slow down drops it doesn't prevent them.
It also leaves you a shity way of killing off medivacs, which is pretty important, while not even giving you half as many options as the standard ling/banelin/muta build which easily transitions into ultra or bl with infester support.
What would a swarm host army do against Terran bio that makes it a good compromise to lose the mobility, counter attack options, upgrade synergy, strong timings and drop defense?
Yeah, swarm hosts are terrible at defending drops. On the other hand, they destroy bio in straight-up engagements, especially with a little baneling support. The only way to fight a swarm host composition head-on is to find way to avoid engagements, then kill a round of locusts and advance forward suddenly, getting on top of the swarm hosts in between locust rounds. The only way to fight banelings is to kite and retreat and target-fire until all the banelings are dead. You can't retreat and advance at the same time, so if you use the banelings to force a bio army away until new locusts spawn, you can just force the Terran army to keep taking chip damage from locusts without getting to hit the swarm hosts.
Suppose you build a play style around the following principles: 1) Swarm hosts keep pressure on the Terran. Speedlings are used to scout forward so you can safely advance the swarm hosts, but the lings don't need to be in large numbers and aren't the primary damage-dealers, so you don't need melee upgrades for your lings.
2) Banelings accompany the swarm hosts to prevent Terran bio from getting the jump on your swarm hosts. Overseers fly behind the locust waves to spot widow mines. Widow mines might be able to take out some locust waves, but not without losing a few widow mines, and locusts are free. Queens and overlords should accompany your army to spread creep wherever you go. Queens, banelings, and locusts all benefit from ranged attack upgrades.
3) The Pneumatized Carapace upgrade should come out relatively quickly. Overlords should be spread very well to spot for drops. With the speed upgrade a viking cannot easily clear all overlords and make drops invisible again; just move the overlords, send something to kill the viking, and move the overlords back very quickly. Any medivac that moves out, you should see coming well in advance.
4) Speed hydralisks will respond to drops. Hydralisks are not as fast as zerglings and mutas, but with good overlord spread you should see drops in time to respond. With some static defense around to delay drops until hydralisks arrive to defend, you should be able to avoid losing excessive drones or important tech structures. Hydralisks also benefit from ranged attack upgrades.
5) Late-game composition is swarm host + hydralisk + vipers, with overseers to spot widow mines. With detection, widow mines are quite ineffective against this composition. Locust/hydralisk trades very well against bio, even before the viper support arrives.
Seems pretty good to me.
lol. I can see you dont watch high level sc2 (like GSL and PL). How can you hold the 140 +2/+2 supply push from T while also securing or running your 4th base? One nice scan from T between the Nat and the 3rd, when he sees a few spines/Queens/SH/Banes he will drop you with 4 MediVacs or more. Why should T fight head on? What are you gonna do when T takes his 4th and 5th with planetaries in some corners of the map with a few widowmines to spot if your army moves there? You gonna commit to take out the base?
He can't build up his big army, because you keep pressuring him with mass swarmhosts + upgraded lings. Lings are cheap = more investment in swarmhosts possible = terran under pressure. I want you zergs to start rallying mass ling + swarmhost to the terran third-nat around 10:00,
On May 17 2013 01:56 Chocobo wrote: [quote] Implying zerg even has the option to use HotS units in the first 15 minutes of the game. SH just isn't a good unit vs non-mech terran, and everything else that's new for zerg comes at hive. Reaper/mine/hellbat/speedvacs are there for all of the early and mid game.
With the infestor being nerfed, and with it now being even worse than before against drop play... it's really not a great option. Zergs are going muta/ling/bling because it's the only half decent option for fighting terran now... it's hardly because "lol my race is so good I don't even need to use HotS units".
Then stephano comes and stomps korean terrans with ultralisks.
So yes, in zerg words, the swarmhost is "worthless" , just like the ultralisk in wol ;d
where in that post did it talk about ultras being trash? He was talking about the first 15 mins when you rarely have 6+ ultras.
Read the threads man, there were so many complaints on the ultralisk.
And that somehow has something to do with swarm host viability vs Terran? some random guys complaining about Ultras in WoL?
Oh yeah, because now the SH complains don't come from random guys? Seriously... You zergs are just so stubborn. Believe me, swarmhosts covered by an army are really strong. They would make mines completely useless.
For example: ever thought about a pure ling into mass swarmhost strat? Like stephano did with pure ling into mass infestor hive? Lings are so cheap, so you can put your money into spines, spores and swarmhosts.
I believe you when you say swarm hosts are really strong when covered. But you have to understand how mobile Terran are in the match up, and static defense can slow down drops it doesn't prevent them.
It also leaves you a shity way of killing off medivacs, which is pretty important, while not even giving you half as many options as the standard ling/banelin/muta build which easily transitions into ultra or bl with infester support.
What would a swarm host army do against Terran bio that makes it a good compromise to lose the mobility, counter attack options, upgrade synergy, strong timings and drop defense?
Yeah, swarm hosts are terrible at defending drops. On the other hand, they destroy bio in straight-up engagements, especially with a little baneling support. The only way to fight a swarm host composition head-on is to find way to avoid engagements, then kill a round of locusts and advance forward suddenly, getting on top of the swarm hosts in between locust rounds. The only way to fight banelings is to kite and retreat and target-fire until all the banelings are dead. You can't retreat and advance at the same time, so if you use the banelings to force a bio army away until new locusts spawn, you can just force the Terran army to keep taking chip damage from locusts without getting to hit the swarm hosts.
Suppose you build a play style around the following principles: 1) Swarm hosts keep pressure on the Terran. Speedlings are used to scout forward so you can safely advance the swarm hosts, but the lings don't need to be in large numbers and aren't the primary damage-dealers, so you don't need melee upgrades for your lings.
2) Banelings accompany the swarm hosts to prevent Terran bio from getting the jump on your swarm hosts. Overseers fly behind the locust waves to spot widow mines. Widow mines might be able to take out some locust waves, but not without losing a few widow mines, and locusts are free. Queens and overlords should accompany your army to spread creep wherever you go. Queens, banelings, and locusts all benefit from ranged attack upgrades.
3) The Pneumatized Carapace upgrade should come out relatively quickly. Overlords should be spread very well to spot for drops. With the speed upgrade a viking cannot easily clear all overlords and make drops invisible again; just move the overlords, send something to kill the viking, and move the overlords back very quickly. Any medivac that moves out, you should see coming well in advance.
4) Speed hydralisks will respond to drops. Hydralisks are not as fast as zerglings and mutas, but with good overlord spread you should see drops in time to respond. With some static defense around to delay drops until hydralisks arrive to defend, you should be able to avoid losing excessive drones or important tech structures. Hydralisks also benefit from ranged attack upgrades.
5) Late-game composition is swarm host + hydralisk + vipers, with overseers to spot widow mines. With detection, widow mines are quite ineffective against this composition. Locust/hydralisk trades very well against bio, even before the viper support arrives.
Seems pretty good to me.
lol. I can see you dont watch high level sc2 (like GSL and PL). How can you hold the 140 +2/+2 supply push from T while also securing or running your 4th base? One nice scan from T between the Nat and the 3rd, when he sees a few spines/Queens/SH/Banes he will drop you with 4 MediVacs or more. Why should T fight head on? What are you gonna do when T takes his 4th and 5th with planetaries in some corners of the map with a few widowmines to spot if your army moves there? You gonna commit to take out the base?
He can't build up his big army, because you keep pressuring him with mass swarmhosts + upgraded lings. Lings are cheap = more investment in swarmhosts possible = terran under pressure. I want you zergs to start rallying mass ling + swarmhost to the terran third-nat around 10:00,
10:00 is the time 2 base mutas arrive. so basically its the same time 2 base SH arrive at the T base because they come out faster but need to travel longer around the map. so you get out like around 6 SHs by that time on 2 base at 10:00. thats outright horrible.
you need to go 3 base SH if at all vs bio. and at that time they are out way later like 11:30 to 12:00.
SH are great vs mech but since bio is able to just amove over the locusts once they have some hellbats and enough medivacs thats horrible. what SH do though is force the T to do at least one of the 3 things:
- build hellbats instead of mines - build tanks - never engage and do mass doomdrops.
maybe blades ling bling muta into SH style might work out but going straight into SHs has huge disadvantages. also you need 3 evos = even less SHs and need a nydus with them (without nydus = all in since if you lose a fight you lose ALL SHs) which is even less SHs. so thats 400 gas for nydus + +1 range attack. oh +200 gas for locust upgrade lol.
SH is bad vs drops AND in a straight up engagement vs bio. thats what makes them horrible vs bio. if it wasnt that big of an investment, yeah they would be viable. as is, they arent.
On May 17 2013 17:50 Forumite wrote: Spore crawlers need an overall damage buff, and maybe a bonus against light. It´s always been the weakest static defence structure.
Because banshees need to be countered harder by them?
And it is a bit short sighted to call the anti air defensive structure with most HP the weakest.
Then stephano comes and stomps korean terrans with ultralisks.
So yes, in zerg words, the swarmhost is "worthless" , just like the ultralisk in wol ;d
where in that post did it talk about ultras being trash? He was talking about the first 15 mins when you rarely have 6+ ultras.
Read the threads man, there were so many complaints on the ultralisk.
And that somehow has something to do with swarm host viability vs Terran? some random guys complaining about Ultras in WoL?
Oh yeah, because now the SH complains don't come from random guys? Seriously... You zergs are just so stubborn. Believe me, swarmhosts covered by an army are really strong. They would make mines completely useless.
For example: ever thought about a pure ling into mass swarmhost strat? Like stephano did with pure ling into mass infestor hive? Lings are so cheap, so you can put your money into spines, spores and swarmhosts.
I believe you when you say swarm hosts are really strong when covered. But you have to understand how mobile Terran are in the match up, and static defense can slow down drops it doesn't prevent them.
It also leaves you a shity way of killing off medivacs, which is pretty important, while not even giving you half as many options as the standard ling/banelin/muta build which easily transitions into ultra or bl with infester support.
What would a swarm host army do against Terran bio that makes it a good compromise to lose the mobility, counter attack options, upgrade synergy, strong timings and drop defense?
Yeah, swarm hosts are terrible at defending drops. On the other hand, they destroy bio in straight-up engagements, especially with a little baneling support. The only way to fight a swarm host composition head-on is to find way to avoid engagements, then kill a round of locusts and advance forward suddenly, getting on top of the swarm hosts in between locust rounds. The only way to fight banelings is to kite and retreat and target-fire until all the banelings are dead. You can't retreat and advance at the same time, so if you use the banelings to force a bio army away until new locusts spawn, you can just force the Terran army to keep taking chip damage from locusts without getting to hit the swarm hosts.
Suppose you build a play style around the following principles: 1) Swarm hosts keep pressure on the Terran. Speedlings are used to scout forward so you can safely advance the swarm hosts, but the lings don't need to be in large numbers and aren't the primary damage-dealers, so you don't need melee upgrades for your lings.
2) Banelings accompany the swarm hosts to prevent Terran bio from getting the jump on your swarm hosts. Overseers fly behind the locust waves to spot widow mines. Widow mines might be able to take out some locust waves, but not without losing a few widow mines, and locusts are free. Queens and overlords should accompany your army to spread creep wherever you go. Queens, banelings, and locusts all benefit from ranged attack upgrades.
3) The Pneumatized Carapace upgrade should come out relatively quickly. Overlords should be spread very well to spot for drops. With the speed upgrade a viking cannot easily clear all overlords and make drops invisible again; just move the overlords, send something to kill the viking, and move the overlords back very quickly. Any medivac that moves out, you should see coming well in advance.
4) Speed hydralisks will respond to drops. Hydralisks are not as fast as zerglings and mutas, but with good overlord spread you should see drops in time to respond. With some static defense around to delay drops until hydralisks arrive to defend, you should be able to avoid losing excessive drones or important tech structures. Hydralisks also benefit from ranged attack upgrades.
5) Late-game composition is swarm host + hydralisk + vipers, with overseers to spot widow mines. With detection, widow mines are quite ineffective against this composition. Locust/hydralisk trades very well against bio, even before the viper support arrives.
Seems pretty good to me.
lol. I can see you dont watch high level sc2 (like GSL and PL). How can you hold the 140 +2/+2 supply push from T while also securing or running your 4th base? One nice scan from T between the Nat and the 3rd, when he sees a few spines/Queens/SH/Banes he will drop you with 4 MediVacs or more. Why should T fight head on? What are you gonna do when T takes his 4th and 5th with planetaries in some corners of the map with a few widowmines to spot if your army moves there? You gonna commit to take out the base?
He can't build up his big army, because you keep pressuring him with mass swarmhosts + upgraded lings. Lings are cheap = more investment in swarmhosts possible = terran under pressure. I want you zergs to start rallying mass ling + swarmhost to the terran third-nat around 10:00,
10:00 is the time 2 base mutas arrive. so basically its the same time 2 base SH arrive at the T base because they come out faster but need to travel longer around the map. so you get out like around 6 SHs by that time on 2 base at 10:00. thats outright horrible.
you need to go 3 base SH if at all vs bio. and at that time they are out way later like 11:30 to 12:00.
SH are great vs mech but since bio is able to just amove over the locusts once they have some hellbats and enough medivacs thats horrible. what SH do though is force the T to do at least one of the 3 things:
- build hellbats instead of mines - build tanks - never engage and do mass doomdrops.
maybe blades ling bling muta into SH style might work out but going straight into SHs has huge disadvantages. also you need 3 evos = even less SHs and need a nydus with them (without nydus = all in since if you lose a fight you lose ALL SHs) which is even less SHs. so thats 400 gas for nydus + +1 range attack. oh +200 gas for locust upgrade lol.
SH is bad vs drops AND in a straight up engagement vs bio. thats what makes them horrible vs bio. if it wasnt that big of an investment, yeah they would be viable. as is, they arent.
Hmm interesting . So you can't go for a greedy third, mass cheap lings, and then have 6-7 swarmhosts at the terran base around 11:00? You go cheap lings, so you get a ton of minerals and gas. And 200-100 isn't that expensive then. Can't you have like 2000-1000 around 10:00? Then you can make 10 swarmhosts. Then the terran has to defend. Does he go for a drop? 1) he will lose a ton at home 2) you have good overlord placement, and make an army at home.
The more I think about the SH, the more I fall in love. It makes me want to switch to zerg ...
Its always pretty funny to see these balance discussions where players defending their own race try to teach players from other races how to play . On another note, a game is probably only really balanced when most actually agree that it is, or whats more likely in this case, when all races equally complain about how overpowered the other races are. The fact that its pretty much only zergs complaining about terrans and that the terrans are just defending their own race without complaining about zergs, well thats a pretty good indication in itself.
where in that post did it talk about ultras being trash? He was talking about the first 15 mins when you rarely have 6+ ultras.
Read the threads man, there were so many complaints on the ultralisk.
And that somehow has something to do with swarm host viability vs Terran? some random guys complaining about Ultras in WoL?
Oh yeah, because now the SH complains don't come from random guys? Seriously... You zergs are just so stubborn. Believe me, swarmhosts covered by an army are really strong. They would make mines completely useless.
For example: ever thought about a pure ling into mass swarmhost strat? Like stephano did with pure ling into mass infestor hive? Lings are so cheap, so you can put your money into spines, spores and swarmhosts.
I believe you when you say swarm hosts are really strong when covered. But you have to understand how mobile Terran are in the match up, and static defense can slow down drops it doesn't prevent them.
It also leaves you a shity way of killing off medivacs, which is pretty important, while not even giving you half as many options as the standard ling/banelin/muta build which easily transitions into ultra or bl with infester support.
What would a swarm host army do against Terran bio that makes it a good compromise to lose the mobility, counter attack options, upgrade synergy, strong timings and drop defense?
Yeah, swarm hosts are terrible at defending drops. On the other hand, they destroy bio in straight-up engagements, especially with a little baneling support. The only way to fight a swarm host composition head-on is to find way to avoid engagements, then kill a round of locusts and advance forward suddenly, getting on top of the swarm hosts in between locust rounds. The only way to fight banelings is to kite and retreat and target-fire until all the banelings are dead. You can't retreat and advance at the same time, so if you use the banelings to force a bio army away until new locusts spawn, you can just force the Terran army to keep taking chip damage from locusts without getting to hit the swarm hosts.
Suppose you build a play style around the following principles: 1) Swarm hosts keep pressure on the Terran. Speedlings are used to scout forward so you can safely advance the swarm hosts, but the lings don't need to be in large numbers and aren't the primary damage-dealers, so you don't need melee upgrades for your lings.
2) Banelings accompany the swarm hosts to prevent Terran bio from getting the jump on your swarm hosts. Overseers fly behind the locust waves to spot widow mines. Widow mines might be able to take out some locust waves, but not without losing a few widow mines, and locusts are free. Queens and overlords should accompany your army to spread creep wherever you go. Queens, banelings, and locusts all benefit from ranged attack upgrades.
3) The Pneumatized Carapace upgrade should come out relatively quickly. Overlords should be spread very well to spot for drops. With the speed upgrade a viking cannot easily clear all overlords and make drops invisible again; just move the overlords, send something to kill the viking, and move the overlords back very quickly. Any medivac that moves out, you should see coming well in advance.
4) Speed hydralisks will respond to drops. Hydralisks are not as fast as zerglings and mutas, but with good overlord spread you should see drops in time to respond. With some static defense around to delay drops until hydralisks arrive to defend, you should be able to avoid losing excessive drones or important tech structures. Hydralisks also benefit from ranged attack upgrades.
5) Late-game composition is swarm host + hydralisk + vipers, with overseers to spot widow mines. With detection, widow mines are quite ineffective against this composition. Locust/hydralisk trades very well against bio, even before the viper support arrives.
Seems pretty good to me.
lol. I can see you dont watch high level sc2 (like GSL and PL). How can you hold the 140 +2/+2 supply push from T while also securing or running your 4th base? One nice scan from T between the Nat and the 3rd, when he sees a few spines/Queens/SH/Banes he will drop you with 4 MediVacs or more. Why should T fight head on? What are you gonna do when T takes his 4th and 5th with planetaries in some corners of the map with a few widowmines to spot if your army moves there? You gonna commit to take out the base?
He can't build up his big army, because you keep pressuring him with mass swarmhosts + upgraded lings. Lings are cheap = more investment in swarmhosts possible = terran under pressure. I want you zergs to start rallying mass ling + swarmhost to the terran third-nat around 10:00,
10:00 is the time 2 base mutas arrive. so basically its the same time 2 base SH arrive at the T base because they come out faster but need to travel longer around the map. so you get out like around 6 SHs by that time on 2 base at 10:00. thats outright horrible.
you need to go 3 base SH if at all vs bio. and at that time they are out way later like 11:30 to 12:00.
SH are great vs mech but since bio is able to just amove over the locusts once they have some hellbats and enough medivacs thats horrible. what SH do though is force the T to do at least one of the 3 things:
- build hellbats instead of mines - build tanks - never engage and do mass doomdrops.
maybe blades ling bling muta into SH style might work out but going straight into SHs has huge disadvantages. also you need 3 evos = even less SHs and need a nydus with them (without nydus = all in since if you lose a fight you lose ALL SHs) which is even less SHs. so thats 400 gas for nydus + +1 range attack. oh +200 gas for locust upgrade lol.
SH is bad vs drops AND in a straight up engagement vs bio. thats what makes them horrible vs bio. if it wasnt that big of an investment, yeah they would be viable. as is, they arent.
Hmm interesting . So you can't go for a greedy third, mass cheap lings, and then have 6-7 swarmhosts at the terran base around 11:00? You go cheap lings, so you get a ton of minerals and gas. And 200-100 isn't that expensive then. Can't you have like 2000-1000 around 10:00? Then you can make 10 swarmhosts.
no you cant. you also cant have 10 mutas at 10:00. you get like 7-8 i think but they give you map control etc.
what you are suggesting is a 2 base SH all in. you have no upgrades, no or superlate 3rd base, no anti air and if you get 200 gas locust upgrade you will have gas for only 5-6 SHs. thats 10-12 locusts...lol.
6-7 SH can hit enemy base at around 9-10 minutes from 2 base play before you have locusts upgrade though, from 3 base depending on rush distance / nydus or no you can probably hit enemy's base at 11-12:30 but playing SH against Bio and even toss will make them drop you a lot. And while you could possibly base trade it's clear that Terran has advantage in such situations. While i'm sure SH will see more and more play against Toss and Mech T , it's clear very niche/limited play that can be done to Bio terran.
Edit: But yeah as poster above me said already - 10 Swarmhosts - not going to happen by 10-11m , if you add 2-3 extra minutes - maybe by then. But what do I know i'm just a Plat scum
And I tend to do different SH and SH+Nydus plays a lot against both terrans and toss
Well the future will tell. It will take a maximum of 2 months before the zvt meta is SH ling hydra. You will laugh that you ever played muta ling bling against the widowmine.
On May 17 2013 18:40 Snowbear wrote: Well the future will tell. It will take a maximum of 2 months before the zvt meta is SH ling hydra. You will laugh that you ever played muta ling bling against the widowmine.
The WM's aren't really that big of an issue , you need to cover the air so he can't f.e doom drop your bases while you are supply tied to sieging his front lines.
So I finally had the time to do alot of testing in the ZvZ and for me it has changed everything. Mutas doesn't even seem like the strongest style to me currently. I even beat a few zergs that seemed clearly better than me just by doing something different. I still think mutas has a place but this patch has been surprisingly amazing.
Also it's kind of weird to me that all this harsh balance discussion is allowed to be going on in this thread. There is a designated balance complain thread you can use for that. In my opinion this should be for discussing the actual change and not other hypothetical ones because something is "imba" or not to you.
I came to this here to find anaylsis of the current state of zvz but the only thing I'm constantly reading is people talking about zvp, zvt balance, swarmhosts balance.. HONESTLY, there is a seperated post for such discussion, do not put it up in this one plz.
On May 16 2013 23:58 Targe wrote: lol buff Hydra AtA vs. bio
lol. for the last month i've been working hard to get Roach/hydra/infestor to work and it actually works really well against most compositions of terrans as long as you play it correctly. But it gets absolutely crushed bypure bio, essentially marauder heavy compositions with a lot of medivacts (like 16+). Any type of buff for the hydra's will directly affect this MU which is why i say it most likely wont happen because blizzard is really not a fan of the hydra since it was a big unit in bw lol.
That was a joke about the spore buff, I think it flew over your head.
On May 17 2013 18:40 Snowbear wrote: Well the future will tell. It will take a maximum of 2 months before the zvt meta is SH ling hydra. You will laugh that you ever played muta ling bling against the widowmine.
hydra will never replace muta with their current stats. Muta are FAR better at providing what you need: AA, anti-drop capability and harassment potential.
On May 17 2013 18:22 Stol wrote: Its always pretty funny to see these balance discussions where players defending their own race try to teach players from other races how to play . On another note, a game is probably only really balanced when most actually agree that it is, or whats more likely in this case, when all races equally complain about how overpowered the other races are. The fact that its pretty much only zergs complaining about terrans and that the terrans are just defending their own race without complaining about zergs, well thats a pretty good indication in itself.
That's the problem in itself, Protoss and Terran players have been able to adapt to new build orders and new unit compositions, such as when iEchoic build/unit comp. came out and dominated the scene.
In WoL, both top ladder P & T players kept their secrets claiming 75% win against Z in their respective ladders. This messed up statistics even though mechanically, Zerg have more tools for scouting than us (Creep AND overlords AND overseers), more powerful spell casters (Infestors, only caster with a damaging AND binding spell that also shoots stacking infantry AND mind control) and more powerful synergy (spine/spore forest supported by queens and invisible moving infestors and roaches).
The result? Both Protoss and Terran units got nerfed or Zerg units got massively buffed. :-/ Think of our constructive feedback as a self-defense mechanism from the nerfbat.
Edit: I need to add that SH make the spine forest/queen/overlord/infestor siege engine even more imba. I seriously wonder how long it'll take Z players to create a BO to abuse this unit comp on the ladder.
Great patch. I don't see too much imbalance. I don't like insta wins that terran gets at lower levels sometimes. For example, if you proxy and get 3 reapers in an unsuspecting base in team games you just win right there.
On May 17 2013 18:22 Stol wrote: Its always pretty funny to see these balance discussions where players defending their own race try to teach players from other races how to play . On another note, a game is probably only really balanced when most actually agree that it is, or whats more likely in this case, when all races equally complain about how overpowered the other races are. The fact that its pretty much only zergs complaining about terrans and that the terrans are just defending their own race without complaining about zergs, well thats a pretty good indication in itself.
That's the problem in itself, Protoss and Terran players have been able to adapt to new build orders and new unit compositions, such as when iEchoic build/unit comp. came out and dominated the scene.
In WoL, both top ladder P & T players kept their secrets claiming 75% win against Z in their respective ladders. This messed up statistics even though mechanically, Zerg have more tools for scouting than us (Creep AND overlords AND overseers), more powerful spell casters (Infestors, only caster with a damaging AND binding spell that also shoots stacking infantry AND mind control) and more powerful synergy (spine/spore forest supported by queens and invisible moving infestors and roaches).
The result? Both Protoss and Terran units got nerfed or Zerg units got massively buffed. :-/ Think of our constructive feedback as a self-defense mechanism from the nerfbat.
Edit: I need to add that SH make the spine forest/queen/overlord/infestor siege engine even more imba. I seriously wonder how long it'll take Z players to create a BO to abuse this unit comp on the ladder.
I'm sorry, but I dont really understand what you're trying to say. I was simply pointing out that most people actually dont complain about things that are easy to handle, and when only one race is complaining, something is probably not right.
If you meant that zerg had more scouting tools than "us", I'm first of all not really sure what "us" means. Coming from a terran it can be debatable as sentry towers and scans alone have probably always been the most powerful scouting tools in the game. Looking at a protoss I can sort of agree, as hallucination used to be an upgrade it would take some time before one could use it, same thing with observers, even though invisible detection in itself is pretty strong. One could also argue that zerg actually need more scouting than the other races due to mechanics, but thats another issue.
Currently though, I'm not sure I would say zerg has better scouting than either protoss or terrans. Furthermore I would personally put protoss as the race with the most powerful spellcasters. Photon overcharge, mass recall and time warp are all very strong and at least time warp have really nice synergy with storm and forcefields. This in itself does however not mean that the game is broken, protoss did need photon overcharge for defence and mass recall simply meant that a protoss can actually retreat after some early pressure, instead of just losing their army most of the time. Comparing units in themselves never really works.
So yes, infestors were really strong which I'm gussing is the reason they got quite a big nerf. People were complaining about their synergy in the lategame. Zergs were on the other hand not really complaining about the lategame at all. This was kinda my point from the start, zergs were probably a bit too strong in that department .
On May 17 2013 18:22 Stol wrote: Its always pretty funny to see these balance discussions where players defending their own race try to teach players from other races how to play . On another note, a game is probably only really balanced when most actually agree that it is, or whats more likely in this case, when all races equally complain about how overpowered the other races are. The fact that its pretty much only zergs complaining about terrans and that the terrans are just defending their own race without complaining about zergs, well thats a pretty good indication in itself.
That's the problem in itself, Protoss and Terran players have been able to adapt to new build orders and new unit compositions, such as when iEchoic build/unit comp. came out and dominated the scene.
In WoL, both top ladder P & T players kept their secrets claiming 75% win against Z in their respective ladders. This messed up statistics even though mechanically, Zerg have more tools for scouting than us (Creep AND overlords AND overseers), more powerful spell casters (Infestors, only caster with a damaging AND binding spell that also shoots stacking infantry AND mind control) and more powerful synergy (spine/spore forest supported by queens and invisible moving infestors and roaches).
The result? Both Protoss and Terran units got nerfed or Zerg units got massively buffed. :-/ Think of our constructive feedback as a self-defense mechanism from the nerfbat.
Edit: I need to add that SH make the spine forest/queen/overlord/infestor siege engine even more imba. I seriously wonder how long it'll take Z players to create a BO to abuse this unit comp on the ladder.
I'm sorry, but I dont really understand what you're trying to say. I was simply pointing out that most people actually dont complain about things that are easy to handle, and when only one race is complaining, something is probably not right.
If you meant that zerg had more scouting tools than "us", I'm first of all not really sure what "us" means. Coming from a terran it can be debatable as sentry towers and scans alone have probably always been the most powerful scouting tools in the game. Looking at a protoss I can sort of agree, as hallucination used to be an upgrade it would take some time before one could use it, same thing with observers, even though invisible detection in itself is pretty strong. One could also argue that zerg actually need more scouting than the other races due to mechanics, but thats another issue.
wat.
You're implying that sentry towers aren't lategame but that halluc is?
That's just plain wrong, and the point he was making + Show Spoiler +
regardless of whether it is right nor not
was that Zerg players cried more so that T/P got nerfs.
On May 18 2013 18:25 theinfamousone wrote: Great patch. I don't see too much imbalance. I don't like insta wins that terran gets at lower levels sometimes. For example, if you proxy and get 3 reapers in an unsuspecting base in team games you just win right there.
I actually would love to see another detection unit for Zerg in future both Protoss and Terran have 3 different things to detect while Zerg is left with two. Maybe even giving changelings some detection range.
On May 17 2013 18:54 Cereb wrote: So I finally had the time to do alot of testing in the ZvZ and for me it has changed everything. Mutas doesn't even seem like the strongest style to me currently. I even beat a few zergs that seemed clearly better than me just by doing something different. I still think mutas has a place but this patch has been surprisingly amazing.
Also it's kind of weird to me that all this harsh balance discussion is allowed to be going on in this thread. There is a designated balance complain thread you can use for that. In my opinion this should be for discussing the actual change and not other hypothetical ones because something is "imba" or not to you.
Out of curiousity, what style are you trying now ?
Personally I've only had to change how I use the mutas but aside from having slightly slower matches, I'm still winning about 80%.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/blog_header/OR2KZ0XB6KT11316122710184.jpg)
.
. The increase in damage to spores will encourage me to do so even more.
"minor" )
), medivac boost clearly gives some troubles but is also nicely figured out I think. Biggest Problem is combination of the 2 (hellbat+boost).
