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It's a shame that this is called the "balance update" and is everything Blizzard came up with so far. If you ask David Kim on what he did since the Hots release, the only thing he could say is "I've instruckted to higher the spore dmg vs bio" GZ on that man!! I cant believe people own money while doing nothing. But sure... I think ZvZ was too heavy on mutas yeah! Anyways there are far bigger concerns than this. That Terran has not been touched at all is hilarious. And that is not written out of any rage.
Reguarding Protoss:
For example the Oracle is just a manifest of poor gamedesign. Why would that unit have 2 differend spells which help "spoting things" and nothing more? It just feels senceless and overlapped even if they are used in different scenarios. It's a, what i call dark Protoss units and should in its spells kinda reflact that.
My idea for the unit:
1 Spell: Keep Pulsarbeam, its fine and nice to watch!
2 Spell: Remove Revelation! Add skill to cloak unit! (While cloak it can't activate Pulsarbeam + costs energy once) This serves the same kind of purpose as Revelation if you are able to keep the unit with the enemy army and also the unit will be able to get out of dangerous situations.
3 Spell: Remove Envision! Add other detection mechanic: Just like Revelation you can debuff cloaked units which are within the Spell AoE and make them visible for a certain amout of time no matter where they go afterwards as long as they where hit by it.
Otherwise it is just a observer without cloak which feels like nothing inovative at all. I think this unit could work but the poor design of it right now doesnt make it seem like a individual unit. Just like the Warhound.
Any thoughts on that?
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On May 15 2013 23:43 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2013 23:28 Zarahtra wrote:On May 15 2013 23:08 TigerKarl wrote:On May 15 2013 21:57 Targe wrote:On May 15 2013 17:05 Humfluxx wrote:
Just nerf the mutas! really! No, that is exactly what this community has been asking Blizzard for years not to do. Nobody asked Blizzard to imrpove the unit that dramatically from their good balance in WoL without reducing their strength as a very strong fighting unit. Blizzard is just closing their eyes towards what the real problem is: a fantastic harassing unit cannot be a fantastic fighting unit at the same time. That's just insanely bad game design. There are still issues with nerfing it straight up, but something needs to be done to the muta. As I see it, mutas are balanced in ZvT vs bio, but are kind of stupid in all the other MUs(aswell as vs mech). Maybe not OP, as I see it in vP they are just a really good tech switch, since now storms don't really counter them that well anymore. ZvZ is ofc just in a really strange/silly state atm and vs mech the mecher can't really kill the mutas unless they are clumped and fly over 3 WMs. Tech switching into them now just seems so strong to me, since before they were on a timer and at a certain point you'd have counters out that would maybe not outright kill them, but dmg them enough that they were wasted supply for a while. Now it just piles on unless you are able to force them to *have to* take a bad fight that they can't retreat from. I like the idea of them as a harass unit, I like the reaper/muta regen as it gives the units some utility through the game and lets good players showcase their micro. It's just stupid to have a harass orientated unit as a straight up good combat unit. Compared to the hellbat drops, the medivac is the harass unit there, as I could've dropped any other unit for the harass, hellbats are just currently the most effective(and medivacs are a support unit, which I feel the mutas are vs bio, primarily sniping medivacs).. They lose to any antiair capable (non castet) unit in a cost for cost situation. I dont know how you guys can call that a good combat unit. Its in fact the worst AtG and the worst AtA unit in the game.
It is 2nd fastest air unit, can clump up if need be(mostly relevant against stalkers) and heals. You just ignored my point totally. It is the healing that makes it so if you can't hard counter the mutas well enough, they can just keep chipping away at your GtA/AtA units and overwhelm you. With gas going in GtG/AtG units, that also makes it so you aren't going 1:1 gas ratio countering the mutas.
Now as a terran I have it easier than I feel toss has it(especially since like I said in my other post, mutas are fine if you play bio). You can trade hp of muta for actual units of your opponent and then back off and heal. Then if there is nothing that hard counters the muta well enough, you can't really stabalize.
I'm not saying that in ZvP/ZvT it is OP, but I am concerned about how it will develop. I kind of feel that ZvZ is just the most obvious place where it is shown since ZvZ(and PvP) are such a knife-edge MU.
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They need to nerf Terran vs Zerg. I don't think anyone is complaining about the balance of the mirror match-ups -.-
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On May 16 2013 01:03 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2013 23:43 Big J wrote:On May 15 2013 23:28 Zarahtra wrote:On May 15 2013 23:08 TigerKarl wrote:On May 15 2013 21:57 Targe wrote:On May 15 2013 17:05 Humfluxx wrote:
Just nerf the mutas! really! No, that is exactly what this community has been asking Blizzard for years not to do. Nobody asked Blizzard to imrpove the unit that dramatically from their good balance in WoL without reducing their strength as a very strong fighting unit. Blizzard is just closing their eyes towards what the real problem is: a fantastic harassing unit cannot be a fantastic fighting unit at the same time. That's just insanely bad game design. There are still issues with nerfing it straight up, but something needs to be done to the muta. As I see it, mutas are balanced in ZvT vs bio, but are kind of stupid in all the other MUs(aswell as vs mech). Maybe not OP, as I see it in vP they are just a really good tech switch, since now storms don't really counter them that well anymore. ZvZ is ofc just in a really strange/silly state atm and vs mech the mecher can't really kill the mutas unless they are clumped and fly over 3 WMs. Tech switching into them now just seems so strong to me, since before they were on a timer and at a certain point you'd have counters out that would maybe not outright kill them, but dmg them enough that they were wasted supply for a while. Now it just piles on unless you are able to force them to *have to* take a bad fight that they can't retreat from. I like the idea of them as a harass unit, I like the reaper/muta regen as it gives the units some utility through the game and lets good players showcase their micro. It's just stupid to have a harass orientated unit as a straight up good combat unit. Compared to the hellbat drops, the medivac is the harass unit there, as I could've dropped any other unit for the harass, hellbats are just currently the most effective(and medivacs are a support unit, which I feel the mutas are vs bio, primarily sniping medivacs).. They lose to any antiair capable (non castet) unit in a cost for cost situation. I dont know how you guys can call that a good combat unit. Its in fact the worst AtG and the worst AtA unit in the game. It is 2nd fastest air unit, can clump up if need be(mostly relevant against stalkers) and heals. You just ignored my point totally. It is the healing that makes it so if you can't hard counter the mutas well enough, they can just keep chipping away at your GtA/AtA units and overwhelm you. With gas going in GtG/AtG units, that also makes it so you aren't going 1:1 gas ratio countering the mutas. Now as a terran I have it easier than I feel toss has it(especially since like I said in my other post, mutas are fine if you play bio). You can trade hp of muta for actual units of your opponent and then back off and heal. Then if there is nothing that hard counters the muta well enough, you can't really stabalize. I'm not saying that in ZvP/ZvT it is OP, but I am concerned about how it will develop. I kind of feel that ZvZ is just the most obvious place where it is shown since ZvZ(and PvP) are such a knife-edge MU.
It's just stupid to have a harass orientated unit as a straight up good combat unit.
This is what I was answering to. I give you everything else. They are easy to mass, due to larva and being capable of fighting ground and air and being fast and fly, which gives them like a thousand possible roles. But they are simply not a straight up good combat unit. They are simply put, very bad in combat.
That you can pick your engagements with them very easily and completly avoid real fighting until the opponent is litterarilly sitting in your base is something completly different.
Edit: btw I do like the dynamic mutalisk/phoenix introduce in PvZ a lot. As it stands, a Protoss who does not open phoenix is punishable with mutalisks later on and it is an indirect nerf to all those Protoss ground allins and ground deathball styles. You get a lot more dynamics from it as a Protoss can do less of those "I'm just gonna build a second robo", "I'm just gonna do the fastest two base rush possible after killing your overlord" and is more in the situation of "if I don't go phoenix, he may just overdefend ground and go mutas later and I won't have anything against them". Strategies seem to focus more on playing against what the other one does, than plain BOs.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
Wow, ok to everyone replying to that post; they shouldn't nerf the muta, it is strong but it is no way unbeatable, mutas are strong in the fact they can dart round and be everywhere but they are very weak in a fight, the only aspect about them that needed to be changed was a way for Zerg to defend their base whilst pushing out as this allows for multiple compositions in ZvZ rather than just muta vs muta as you cannot leave your base due to the muta harass.
Of course previous ZvZ compositions will not work vs. mutas however that's not the right attitude, compositions will have to adapt so that they have a strong AtA when facing air but that's the point isn't it? You cannot just consider mutas a phase of the game which after both players transition to a ground vs. ground army, it is far more interesting to have the option to go something like roach-hydra versus muta ling where the roach hydra is eventually able to leave their base due to the new static anti air being strong.
I stand by my point, mutas don't need a nerf.
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On May 16 2013 01:13 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2013 01:03 Zarahtra wrote:On May 15 2013 23:43 Big J wrote:On May 15 2013 23:28 Zarahtra wrote:On May 15 2013 23:08 TigerKarl wrote:On May 15 2013 21:57 Targe wrote:On May 15 2013 17:05 Humfluxx wrote:
Just nerf the mutas! really! No, that is exactly what this community has been asking Blizzard for years not to do. Nobody asked Blizzard to imrpove the unit that dramatically from their good balance in WoL without reducing their strength as a very strong fighting unit. Blizzard is just closing their eyes towards what the real problem is: a fantastic harassing unit cannot be a fantastic fighting unit at the same time. That's just insanely bad game design. There are still issues with nerfing it straight up, but something needs to be done to the muta. As I see it, mutas are balanced in ZvT vs bio, but are kind of stupid in all the other MUs(aswell as vs mech). Maybe not OP, as I see it in vP they are just a really good tech switch, since now storms don't really counter them that well anymore. ZvZ is ofc just in a really strange/silly state atm and vs mech the mecher can't really kill the mutas unless they are clumped and fly over 3 WMs. Tech switching into them now just seems so strong to me, since before they were on a timer and at a certain point you'd have counters out that would maybe not outright kill them, but dmg them enough that they were wasted supply for a while. Now it just piles on unless you are able to force them to *have to* take a bad fight that they can't retreat from. I like the idea of them as a harass unit, I like the reaper/muta regen as it gives the units some utility through the game and lets good players showcase their micro. It's just stupid to have a harass orientated unit as a straight up good combat unit. Compared to the hellbat drops, the medivac is the harass unit there, as I could've dropped any other unit for the harass, hellbats are just currently the most effective(and medivacs are a support unit, which I feel the mutas are vs bio, primarily sniping medivacs).. They lose to any antiair capable (non castet) unit in a cost for cost situation. I dont know how you guys can call that a good combat unit. Its in fact the worst AtG and the worst AtA unit in the game. It is 2nd fastest air unit, can clump up if need be(mostly relevant against stalkers) and heals. You just ignored my point totally. It is the healing that makes it so if you can't hard counter the mutas well enough, they can just keep chipping away at your GtA/AtA units and overwhelm you. With gas going in GtG/AtG units, that also makes it so you aren't going 1:1 gas ratio countering the mutas. Now as a terran I have it easier than I feel toss has it(especially since like I said in my other post, mutas are fine if you play bio). You can trade hp of muta for actual units of your opponent and then back off and heal. Then if there is nothing that hard counters the muta well enough, you can't really stabalize. I'm not saying that in ZvP/ZvT it is OP, but I am concerned about how it will develop. I kind of feel that ZvZ is just the most obvious place where it is shown since ZvZ(and PvP) are such a knife-edge MU. Show nested quote +It's just stupid to have a harass orientated unit as a straight up good combat unit. This is what I was answering to. I give you everything else. They are easy to mass, due to larva and being capable of fighting ground and air and being fast and fly, which gives them like a thousand possible roles. But they are simply not a straight up good combat unit. They are simply put, very bad in combat. That you can pick your engagements with them very easily and completly avoid real fighting until the opponent is litterarilly sitting in your base is something completly different.
I mean it kind of depends on what you call good dps though, assuming no splash, thors and stalkers do similar dps as the muta for cost, so unless we are comparing the muta to rines, I'd say it's dps is still really good. I can however rephrase that then, they trade adequantly against units which are on the field for almost the only purpose to fight the mutas and are normally in greater numbers than those units.
Like I said before, I am not calling it OP. I'm liking this "wait and see" approach by Blizzard, but I am quite concerned about it though.
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1395 Posts
On May 16 2013 00:49 SlaverR wrote:
2 Spell: Remove Revelation! Add skill to cloak unit! (While cloak it can't activate Pulsarbeam + costs energy once) This serves the same kind of purpose as Revelation if you are able to keep the unit with the enemy army and also the unit will be able to get out of dangerous situations.
Any thoughts on that?
So because you don't like a mechanism that is completely different than an observer but according to you still too much like an observer, you want to add a cloak so it can act as ridiculous expensive observer?
That makes as much sense as using a cloakshee as observer: it just means you lose your cloakshee. Same will be true for Oracles, you don't want to be over an army that will instakill you with detection.
On May 16 2013 01:11 FretfulAnimL wrote:
They need to nerf Terran vs Zerg. I don't think anyone is complaining about the balance of the mirror match-ups -.-
Euhm yes people are complaining about balance in mirror matchups. Really weird idea that there can't be balance issues in mirrors :/. Currently I agree with blizzard that the mean issue is zvz muta wars, so good they address it (although I am not a big fan of the change).
And I just assume they are not a big fan of nerfing terran when they don't seem to be too strong.
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On May 16 2013 01:57 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2013 01:13 Big J wrote:On May 16 2013 01:03 Zarahtra wrote:On May 15 2013 23:43 Big J wrote:On May 15 2013 23:28 Zarahtra wrote:On May 15 2013 23:08 TigerKarl wrote:On May 15 2013 21:57 Targe wrote:On May 15 2013 17:05 Humfluxx wrote:
Just nerf the mutas! really! No, that is exactly what this community has been asking Blizzard for years not to do. Nobody asked Blizzard to imrpove the unit that dramatically from their good balance in WoL without reducing their strength as a very strong fighting unit. Blizzard is just closing their eyes towards what the real problem is: a fantastic harassing unit cannot be a fantastic fighting unit at the same time. That's just insanely bad game design. There are still issues with nerfing it straight up, but something needs to be done to the muta. As I see it, mutas are balanced in ZvT vs bio, but are kind of stupid in all the other MUs(aswell as vs mech). Maybe not OP, as I see it in vP they are just a really good tech switch, since now storms don't really counter them that well anymore. ZvZ is ofc just in a really strange/silly state atm and vs mech the mecher can't really kill the mutas unless they are clumped and fly over 3 WMs. Tech switching into them now just seems so strong to me, since before they were on a timer and at a certain point you'd have counters out that would maybe not outright kill them, but dmg them enough that they were wasted supply for a while. Now it just piles on unless you are able to force them to *have to* take a bad fight that they can't retreat from. I like the idea of them as a harass unit, I like the reaper/muta regen as it gives the units some utility through the game and lets good players showcase their micro. It's just stupid to have a harass orientated unit as a straight up good combat unit. Compared to the hellbat drops, the medivac is the harass unit there, as I could've dropped any other unit for the harass, hellbats are just currently the most effective(and medivacs are a support unit, which I feel the mutas are vs bio, primarily sniping medivacs).. They lose to any antiair capable (non castet) unit in a cost for cost situation. I dont know how you guys can call that a good combat unit. Its in fact the worst AtG and the worst AtA unit in the game. It is 2nd fastest air unit, can clump up if need be(mostly relevant against stalkers) and heals. You just ignored my point totally. It is the healing that makes it so if you can't hard counter the mutas well enough, they can just keep chipping away at your GtA/AtA units and overwhelm you. With gas going in GtG/AtG units, that also makes it so you aren't going 1:1 gas ratio countering the mutas. Now as a terran I have it easier than I feel toss has it(especially since like I said in my other post, mutas are fine if you play bio). You can trade hp of muta for actual units of your opponent and then back off and heal. Then if there is nothing that hard counters the muta well enough, you can't really stabalize. I'm not saying that in ZvP/ZvT it is OP, but I am concerned about how it will develop. I kind of feel that ZvZ is just the most obvious place where it is shown since ZvZ(and PvP) are such a knife-edge MU. It's just stupid to have a harass orientated unit as a straight up good combat unit. This is what I was answering to. I give you everything else. They are easy to mass, due to larva and being capable of fighting ground and air and being fast and fly, which gives them like a thousand possible roles. But they are simply not a straight up good combat unit. They are simply put, very bad in combat. That you can pick your engagements with them very easily and completly avoid real fighting until the opponent is litterarilly sitting in your base is something completly different. I mean it kind of depends on what you call good dps though, assuming no splash, thors and stalkers do similar dps as the muta for cost, so unless we are comparing the muta to rines, I'd say it's dps is still really good. I can however rephrase that then, they trade adequantly against units which are on the field for almost the only purpose to fight the mutas and are normally in greater numbers than those units. Like I said before, I am not calling it OP. I'm liking this "wait and see" approach by Blizzard, but I am quite concerned about it though.
Oh well, I can agree with that a lot. But I think any AtG+AtA unit has such potential to be "broken in one way or another", as in Starcraft only few units can attack air. But I actually feel like units like the mutalisk which actually lose big combats are only really broken if you can safely snowball them in the midgame and such effects are usually manageable by adjusting your strategy. (while flying units that actually win combats like BL/Corruptor or BCs or Voidray/Carrier/Tempest always have the potential that people figure out how to turtle to/with them and then gain an "unbeatable" deathball)
But yeah, starcrafts antiair design doesn't allow for too much efficiency on air units and it will always be one of the biggest things to look out for.
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Honestly the spore change makes 0 difference except for defense. You'll still get 0 map control unless you go muta too, so it's no different. Come on Blizzard, look at more than 1 aspect of the game for a change.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On May 16 2013 02:19 Mortal wrote:
Honestly the spore change makes 0 difference except for defense. You'll still get 0 map control unless you go muta too, so it's no different. Come on Blizzard, look at more than 1 aspect of the game for a change.
Don't the spores let you move out with your army without risk of losing your base completely, obviously you won't have map control against ling muta but isn't that to be expected?
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On May 16 2013 02:19 Mortal wrote:
Honestly the spore change makes 0 difference except for defense. You'll still get 0 map control unless you go muta too, so it's no different. Come on Blizzard, look at more than 1 aspect of the game for a change.
And was that any different in WoL against a muta opening?
Hell, in WoL if he caught you offguard without a third, you would often have to wait 1-2mins for your first infestors to pop, just to take your third against a muta/ling opening.
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On May 16 2013 03:34 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2013 02:19 Mortal wrote:
Honestly the spore change makes 0 difference except for defense. You'll still get 0 map control unless you go muta too, so it's no different. Come on Blizzard, look at more than 1 aspect of the game for a change. And was that any different in WoL against a muta opening? Hell, in WoL if he caught you offguard without a third, you would often have to wait 1-2mins for your first infestors to pop, just to take your third against a muta/ling opening.
Or, he would use the mutas to try and snipe the 3rd and once it was sniped you just couldn't retake it and by that point the muta opening was successful.
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On May 16 2013 03:23 Targe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2013 02:19 Mortal wrote:
Honestly the spore change makes 0 difference except for defense. You'll still get 0 map control unless you go muta too, so it's no different. Come on Blizzard, look at more than 1 aspect of the game for a change. Don't the spores let you move out with your army without risk of losing your base completely, obviously you won't have map control against ling muta but isn't that to be expected?
you don't need map-control to win a game, I play Protoss so I know :D
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People that think the change will have any real impact are far too focused on actually attacking the enemy base, that is all.
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On May 16 2013 01:11 FretfulAnimL wrote:
They need to nerf Terran vs Zerg. I don't think anyone is complaining about the balance of the mirror match-ups -.-
Except many of the Zerg players who feel they are forced to go into mutas and don't want to.
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On May 16 2013 05:33 wUndertUnge wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2013 01:11 FretfulAnimL wrote:
They need to nerf Terran vs Zerg. I don't think anyone is complaining about the balance of the mirror match-ups -.- Except many of the Zerg players who feel they are forced to go into mutas and don't want to.
Exactly. ZvZ is actually the only matchup that I've been complaining about. xD
I loved Roach/Hydra/Infestor plays in WoL, then for awhile there ling/bling/muta was popular again, then mutas into roach/infestor... on and on. Seemed like there was a lot of diversity at the end of WoL. (albeit Infestor/Broodlord, but I still didn't see that THAT often)
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The balance of SC2 at the moment is quite good in my opinion. Most of the qq that I'm seeing is completely unelaborated or makes no sense at all and seems to be from a very small group. Gameplay wise, the early game is more volatile (at least with respect to WoL's 15 minute 3 base no rush meta). Glad to see Bliz not making fast sweeping changes.
The spore change is nice since it doesn't affect the other matchups and does, if ever so slightly, push for a less muta vs muta zvz. Not sure how effective this will be at elevating the issue though.
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approve!! no more mass muta games!!
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On May 16 2013 00:49 SlaverR wrote:
That Terran has not been touched at all is hilarious.
Is it??? Where do you see imbalance? In tourneys? No. In ladder? No. There is 0 imbalance atm, and you are still whining. Why? Because you want your easy wol times back? Well let me tell you, this won't happen. The game is balanced now, all races have a hard time.
You actually see zergs doing FINE vs terran with a WOL composition (muta ling bling) vs the new sick things terrans got (mines, speedvac, hellbats). Can you imagine that? A race is using pure WOL units, and is doing FINE against sick new units. Imagine you start using your new stuff like speedhydras, swarmhosts and vipers. In a few weeks you will feel so embarrassed for complaining so much, and I'm 100% sure of this.
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i dont like muta zvz, not because of gameplay but seeing mutas...being "microed" looks just so sad. its like a dog with a missing leg hopping around all happily wagging its tail 
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EPT
