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guys guys GUYS
THEY DIDNT TOUCH THE BUNKER
MIRACLE
On May 15 2013 03:23 EliteEFive wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 09:31 heyoka wrote:From the Blizzard blog. Making a new thread to restart the discussion since the discussed balance change is now live, and to keep it to this and not the oracle changes or whatever. Heart of the Swarm Balance Update – May 13, 2013![[image loading]](http://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/blog_header/OR2KZ0XB6KT11316122710184.jpg) A little over a week ago, we requested your help in testing a few proposed balance tweaks for StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm by playing with each change on our new Balance Test Map. After reviewing your thoughts, gathering pro player feedback, examining ladder stats, and watching lots of tournament matches, we're ready to move forward with a balance update. Today, we’ll be implementing the following balance change for StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm multiplayer: Zerg- Spore Crawler damage increased from 15 + 15 vs. biological to 15 + 30 vs. biological
If you'd like to read more on the reasoning behind this change, feel free to check out David Kim's recent forum post, in which he provided his team's thoughts on StarCraft II balance after reviewing test map results and feedback.
As always, thank you for play testing the changes we proposed with the most recent Balance Test Map. The extensive testing and quality of feedback you've provided have allowed us to make this call, and we look forward to sharing more of our thoughts on StarCraft II balance with you in the future. Poll: Final thoughts on the change?Approve (1355) 65% Neutral-prove (381) 18% Disapprove (334) 16% 2070 total votes Your vote: Final thoughts on the change? (Vote): Approve
(Vote): Disapprove
(Vote): Neutral-prove
Really dislike this patch... Now mutas isn't even a viable option as the other player will just spread creep and spam spores everywhere. Instead of forcing builds down our throats, maybe just have players explore other options... Hydra,roach,infestor,queen,ultra for late game works just fine, Especially with normal spores as they are. I don't even see muta viable anymore in zvz... Another bad nerf for zerg. Yes nerf because mutas are useless in zvz now..
thats like saying hellions arent viable after queen range buff :/
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On May 15 2013 02:11 Nerski wrote:
The only thing that concerns me about their recent balance ideals is that there seems to be a heavier focus on is it fun to watch and not is it fun to play. They seem to be getting desperate in trying to catch riot which is a bad way to develop a game long term. To prove that statement, largely ZvT right now is the same compositions smashing against one another ever game. It's however far less boring to watch then ZvZ is. So they don't see ZvT as an issue where they do see ZvZ as an issue, hence a heavier focus on watch ability rather then true balance and in game fun.
I dunno about that, they're not losing out to LoL because SC2 is less watchable, LoL's popularity is down to it being easy to play, free and the client directing players to tournament streams. Welcome to the future, people like easy games here :/.
I personally don't find muta styles fun to play, its pretty simplistic micro and with the stacking and bounce they scale too well (they're balanced in other matchups despite this). Both as a player and as a spectator I'd rather any ultimate composition required more than 2 unit types and clicking on the thing you want to die.
While I approve of the change I feel this isn't really going to solve the problem, there's still a critical mass of mutas at which they'll one shot spores, negating them regardless of damage, unless theres a big field of the things... Muta's still shut down that third base hard. I'm going to continue to go for ling bling into pre muta roach all in until I'm sure things are changing.
Maybe if air units couldn't stack up so tightly things would be different but then things like the thor splash and pheonix stacking vs muta balls get all out of whack and need looking at.... yeah lets forget I ever said that :D
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I don't think this spore change is directed at late mid game to late game at all. Once a flock of mutas has been achieved this buff will do nothing. Which is good. The problem currently was that muta survivability was to high and players could harass and achieve that flock before the opponent could really get a mobile AA army. This will open that gap up a little more so players can safely get infestor/queen or infestor/hydra.
Also I don't think Blizzard is making these changes at all for spectators. The muta vs muta is far to popular right now because it is much easier to build a spire and harass then defend with infestor/hydra. I don't think it was impossible to go non muta but it did seem harder to do. With this spore buff hopefully it will be a little easier to hold of mutas in time to stop the big flock.
And by no means will this stop people from going mutas and if you think it will you are clearly not thinking at all. Once you establish a certain amount of mutas spores won't do anything. This is clearly just a mid game AA buff that is all.
I am glad Blizzard is taking it slow because the game feels pretty balanced right now. Obviously this is just my opinion so take it for what it is.
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On May 15 2013 03:42 mostevil wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2013 02:11 Nerski wrote:
The only thing that concerns me about their recent balance ideals is that there seems to be a heavier focus on is it fun to watch and not is it fun to play. They seem to be getting desperate in trying to catch riot which is a bad way to develop a game long term. To prove that statement, largely ZvT right now is the same compositions smashing against one another ever game. It's however far less boring to watch then ZvZ is. So they don't see ZvT as an issue where they do see ZvZ as an issue, hence a heavier focus on watch ability rather then true balance and in game fun.
I dunno about that, they're not losing out to LoL because SC2 is less watchable, LoL's popularity is down to it being easy to play, free and the client directing players to tournament streams. Welcome to the future, people like easy games here :/.
I wouldn't deny for a moment what you said isn't true as far as why SC2 isn't as popular as league. I would counter that while that may be true all of blizzards language and actions, would at least in appearance make it sound like their greatest concern is improving what the game looks like to a viewer. This based on them getting involved with WCS, buying IPL, and every balance talk has lots of 'this is fun to watch' 'this isn't fun to watch' kind of language now used.
I'd believe it was less about watch ability if say for instance, with people complaining across the board about hellbat drops that something was at least tested on their latest test map. Whether any change actually happened it'd at least show it was a thought crossing their mind. Instead the last round of balance changes were stupid...
*Oracale speed because why? it'd look awesome seeing someone abuse the hell out of a fast oracle?
*Burrow change why? because players could do neat fun to watch things with super early burrow timings?
*Spore change why? because ZvZ is boring to watch...only change to go in and thus far if anything it seems to have made the whole muta vs muta thing worse. Which remains to be for sure seen but thus far it seems like a lack luster adjustment.
The two that didn't go in basically seemed like a dumb idea to most people from the onset balance wise. Blizzard was more then happy to try them out on what basis? The only one I can think of is trying to make 'cool things happen' that are 'fun to watch'. Even if it'd make playing the game absolutely a horrific experience.
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On May 15 2013 05:09 Nerski wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2013 03:42 mostevil wrote:On May 15 2013 02:11 Nerski wrote:
The only thing that concerns me about their recent balance ideals is that there seems to be a heavier focus on is it fun to watch and not is it fun to play. They seem to be getting desperate in trying to catch riot which is a bad way to develop a game long term. To prove that statement, largely ZvT right now is the same compositions smashing against one another ever game. It's however far less boring to watch then ZvZ is. So they don't see ZvT as an issue where they do see ZvZ as an issue, hence a heavier focus on watch ability rather then true balance and in game fun.
I dunno about that, they're not losing out to LoL because SC2 is less watchable, LoL's popularity is down to it being easy to play, free and the client directing players to tournament streams. Welcome to the future, people like easy games here :/. I wouldn't deny for a moment what you said isn't true as far as why SC2 isn't as popular as league. I would counter that while that may be true all of blizzards language and actions, would at least in appearance make it sound like their greatest concern is improving what the game looks like to a viewer. This based on them getting involved with WCS, buying IPL, and every balance talk has lots of 'this is fun to watch' 'this isn't fun to watch' kind of language now used. I'd believe it was less about watch ability if say for instance, with people complaining across the board about hellbat drops that something was at least tested on their latest test map. Whether any change actually happened it'd at least show it was a thought crossing their mind. Instead the last round of balance changes were stupid... *Oracale speed because why? it'd look awesome seeing someone abuse the hell out of a fast oracle? *Burrow change why? because players could do neat fun to watch things with super early burrow timings? *Spore change why? because ZvZ is boring to watch...only change to go in and thus far if anything it seems to have made the whole muta vs muta thing worse. Which remains to be for sure seen but thus far it seems like a lack luster adjustment. The two that didn't go in basically seemed like a dumb idea to most people from the onset balance wise. Blizzard was more then happy to try them out on what basis? The only one I can think of is trying to make 'cool things happen' that are 'fun to watch'. Even if it'd make playing the game absolutely a horrific experience.
Let's all be honest here, playing BW was that exact horrific experience. I hated playing BW because of how stupidly hard it was to attack with my 50 lings, and how much effort it took to just mine minerals and build units. Yet BW was very fun to watch and it thrived because of that. I don't think any change Blizzard could ever make would make SC2 less fun to play than BW. So I agree with their focus on making the game fun to watch, because I can always make the game fun to play for myself, by building fun units even if it means staying in lower leagues.
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As long as it doesn't go back to straight roach/hydra/festor wars. Who knows maybe we'll see some swarm hosts since the spores do more damage to overseers now as well
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I love how carefully these changes are made by Blizzard. Good job!!
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On May 14 2013 09:34 heyoka wrote:
I'm down for anything that increases the number of viable strategies so if it makes gameplay more diverse, then good job.
up or down? am i directionally challenged?
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On May 15 2013 06:58 catplanetcatplanet wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 09:34 heyoka wrote:
I'm down for anything that increases the number of viable strategies so if it makes gameplay more diverse, then good job. up or down? am i directionally challenged? I think he meant it was left decision to do so.
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Hmm. I understand the change but it is a bit of an ugly one.
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not a fan, i'd of liked +1 muta armor -1 attack. but it is a careful balance.
edit; i one base muta a lot, so this weakens such a cheese.
edit 2: bring back scourge :D
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On May 15 2013 07:13 Slayer- wrote:
not a fan, i'd of liked +1 muta armor -1 attack. but it is a careful balance.
edit; i one base muta a lot, so this weakens such a cheese.
edit 2: bring back scourge :D
Armor is much more valuable than attack. Mutalisks would survive a lot more easily (24 vs 20 shots against Marine and 14 vs 10 against Stalker, both on equal upgrades), but their damage output wouldn't be reduced by that much (just one more shot to kill a worker or a Marine, 2 more shots to kill a Stalker).
My conclusion is that it changes way too much outside of ZvZ.
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doesnt solve anything, david kim for president
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On May 15 2013 06:32 Nikoras wrote:
As long as it doesn't go back to straight roach/hydra/festor wars. Who knows maybe we'll see some swarm hosts since the spores do more damage to overseers now as well
Overseer vision: 11
Spore Crawler range: 7
The only change this will make is that people will no longer dive into bases with 20~ mutas as eagerly.
Oh and for myself, it'll make my matches longer, but my overall strategy will remain the same.
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i'm sort of neutral on this. if it allows you to tech past mutas behind your spores then i guess it's good. i'm not convinced it'll do that. i think it'll just delay the inevitable for the person with less mutas. my only concern is that if the stronger spores actually do their job of letting the non-muta player survive to tech to something else, it'll kill mutas in zvz and we'll end up with a different forced composition. but that might just be the nature of zvz till the end of time. who knows. that's just my gut feeling.
the best thing about this patch is that this is the only change. i highly approve of this careful approach. there are some things i think will inevitably be nerfed or tweaked somehow (helbats, free-to-use medivac boost, possibly void rays, etc) but from what i've seen aren't so bad as to break the game right now and i full support them giving players a chance to work it out for themselves.
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WHY don't aditional biological damage to corrupters?
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On May 15 2013 09:30 StarscreamG1 wrote:
WHY don't aditional biological damage to corrupters?
Mutas are never going to engage corruptors anyway. No one is going to build a bunch of corruptors to sit at their bases instead of spores. The same goes for why hydras getting the buff doesn't help. The biggest problem with not playing mutas is never that you can't win muta vs corruptor/hydra engagements, it's that you can never leave your base or it'll get destroyed by the mutas. The spore buffs make harassing much more dangerous, and means if you put 4-5 at a base, the muta player will lose quite a few mutas attacking into it. It might then make hydra play more viable since now they have the option to leave their base instead of sit in it till they lose.
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This seems nice to me as a Zerg.
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so, any experiences yet?
So far I have been having decent success with roach/spine/queen 3base defenses against mutas on this patch. (only few games) - it's more that I don't have a clue what to do afterwards (roach/hydra into swarm host?!?)
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EPT
