EPTHeart of the Swarm Balance Update – May 13, 2013 - Page 11
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smogg
Bulgaria167 Posts
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scypio
Poland2127 Posts
On May 14 2013 22:18 Chocobo wrote: It sounded like yet another insult along the lines of "zergs use zero micro and they're all bad". Your point about learning to deal with mines is valid... as of December. It has been close to 5 months and there are no reliable counters to bio mine other than mastering the precise anti-mine micro... something that is simply out of the reach of most players. Suppose baneling splash damage area was larger and your marine splits had to be flawless to be useful at all. Would you say "look, Marineking can do it, so just get better at it and make sure you don't mess it up!" or would you recognize that it's just not good gameplay at below-pro skill levels? Wait a second... 5 months? The game has been out for two. How hard did you try to learn to micro against the mines? How many ZvTs vs 4M did you play? How much do you think is enough? Marine splitting is hard. Really hard. That's why people came up with the marine split challenge to and spent hours focusing on this single aspect of the game. Is there something like a minefield-clean challenge? No? Well, then you're not trying hard enough. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 14 2013 22:17 cocosoft wrote: Yeah... also blizz seconds 1spore cost 125 52 dps vs bio 17 dps vs other flyers 0 dps vs anything else 3 stimmed marines cost 150 30dps vs bio 30dps vs other flyers 30dps vs anything else dont see the problem with an immobile defense having so much dps, there are other units with insane dps as well. Whatever works. | ||
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NEEDZMOAR
Sweden1277 Posts
On May 14 2013 22:28 scypio wrote: Wait a second... 5 months? The game has been out for two. How hard did you try to learn to micro against the mines? How many ZvTs vs 4M did you play? How much do you think is enough? Marine splitting is hard. Really hard. That's why people came up with the marine split challenge to and spent hours focusing on this single aspect of the game. Is there something like a minefield-clean challenge? No? Well, then you're not trying hard enough. thats why most players go Marauder Marine Mine though, marauders soak up those banes like some kind of baneling soaking sponge ;D and it gives the T time to move back, Im not saying hes right, but what youre saying isnt the full truth. | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On May 14 2013 22:28 scypio wrote: Wait a second... 5 months? The game has been out for two. How hard did you try to learn to micro against the mines? How many ZvTs vs 4M did you play? How much do you think is enough? Marine splitting is hard. Really hard. That's why people came up with the marine split challenge to and spent hours focusing on this single aspect of the game. Is there something like a minefield-clean challenge? No? Well, then you're not trying hard enough. They included the Beta period. Also, ling split challenge, FUND IT!!! | ||
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
On May 14 2013 22:04 Chocobo wrote: The problem is not that there is no counter. The problem is that the counter is significantly more difficult than any other counter to a unit comp in the game. If it was a matter of "don't run 10 clumped banelings over a widow mine" or "just get detection and go around the mines" or "make some of these units which are good against mines, and micro them like this" then it would be great. But when there's a ball of MMM poking around, using the mines for cover, guarding the mines from mine-clearing suicide lings, etc... it is very difficult to avoid engaging that without being so cost-inefficient that you lose the game. It is far more difficult than splitting marines up, or positioning your units in a particular way. After 50+ attempts with roach/hydra/viper I doubt this unit comp has any future in ZvT. It's less bad against mines, but it's very weak vs bio when there's no blinding cloud, and cloud is easy for terran to evade. If there's a counter for this skill level it seems like it has to be infested terrans. The problem is that the mines take too long to fire, so marines kill the eggs and the mine cancels its firing animation. If only mines fired instantly (like almost every other unit) then zerg's problems would be solved. This post is very true, but to be fair, there is 3 unit in the zerg arsenal that, on paper, can trade with widow mine it has greater range, which are hydralisk, Brood lord and Swarm Host. The problem is that none of them is actually a solution for one because all of this solution force you to sacrifice your mobility by a lot and that when medivacs boost come into play. hydralisk kinda force you to go for roach Hydra (into viper/infestor) which is not totally bad but not especially good either, SH needs to be on high number to trigger the mines but they are not mobile enough and takes a lot of supply and BL are just too slow. Yesterday's game between JD vs Theognis kinda showed this problems, both for roach hydra on Daybreak and muta ling on Akilon, first game he did trade pretty well during the game, but once terran is maxed roach hydra just get roasted in direct fight, and on Akilon JD was in a good position, maxed in 5/3 ultralisk and then BL + infestor but that's when the mobility of the terran army cames into played and just never engaged until he was sure to win. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
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vRadiatioNv
United States139 Posts
On May 14 2013 22:59 Toadvine wrote: Zergs complaining about drops being hard to deal with should try playing PvT to get a bit of perspective on the matter. As a Protoss player, I feel so jealous when I see a Terran drop the Zerg's main, and speedlings are there within 2-3 seconds despite being in the middle of the map as the medivac flew in. Mutas are just icing on this particular cake. I can say the same thing about Warpgates and Recall. | ||
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BaaL`
297 Posts
On May 14 2013 23:03 vRadiatioNv wrote: I can say the same thing about Warpgates and Recall. All you zergs and protoss make me so jealous with your drop defense, all i can do is build 4-5 turrets in every base :D | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 14 2013 22:54 Vanadiel wrote: This post is very true, but to be fair, there is 3 unit in the zerg arsenal that, on paper, can trade with widow mine it has greater range, which are hydralisk, Brood lord and Swarm Host. The problem is that none of them is actually a solution for one because all of this solution force you to sacrifice your mobility by a lot and that when medivacs boost come into play. hydralisk kinda force you to go for roach Hydra (into viper/infestor) which is not totally bad but not especially good either, SH needs to be on high number to trigger the mines but they are not mobile enough and takes a lot of supply and BL are just too slow. Yesterday's game between JD vs Theognis kinda showed this problems, both for roach hydra on Daybreak and muta ling on Akilon, first game he did trade pretty well during the game, but once terran is maxed roach hydra just get roasted in direct fight, and on Akilon JD was in a good position, maxed in 5/3 ultralisk and then BL + infestor but that's when the mobility of the terran army cames into played and just never engaged until he was sure to win. Ultras and roaches are both efficient when taking mineshots and then taking them out. You can't avoid the hit, but you can often just tank through them. Then there are also mutalisks which can abuse the 2second activation time and snipe spread out unprotected mines before they go off (I think enough roaches can do so too). Then there is chain fungal on clumped mines and ITs which take roughly as long to regenerate the energy for as it takes the mine to reload. And zerglings, which you can sacrifice one and then pick off the mine efficiently (75/25 vs 25/0). Really, what's hard to deal with is not the mine, it's the protected mine. Or more accuratly, the bio-protected mine, because many of the mine counters are also good/OK vs mechplay. Or, even more acurately, the marine protected mine. Because marines force banelings in the midgame, which is kind of the only unit you absolutly don't want to play when there are mines as zerg. And it's not imba or anything. It is just a little stale, as you hardly have any choices in a macrogame (at least it seems like that, since the proscene is nearly exclusively playing like that when facing bio, but maybe we'll be surprised). | ||
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
On May 14 2013 22:59 Toadvine wrote: Zergs complaining about drops being hard to deal with should try playing PvT to get a bit of perspective on the matter. As a Protoss player, I feel so jealous when I see a Terran drop the Zerg's main, and speedlings are there within 2-3 seconds despite being in the middle of the map as the medivac flew in. Mutas are just icing on this particular cake. It's not the problem with the drop itself, but the conjunction of the threat of drops force muta ling and the strenght of bio+mines in direct fight, especially against bio+mines. You kind of has to go into mutaling to respond to the drop, and then the endless bio mines pushes start and if you're good you can not die from this but you'll never be cost efficient against it, until Ultralisk you can't even go beyond the middle of the map. To be honest I would love to see the Swarm Host been redone by Blizzard, makes it stronger in mid game so it can be more useful against terran and weaker in late game (takes more supply for example?) so it doesn't become the new Brood Lord in late game ZvP. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On May 14 2013 23:09 BaaL` wrote: All you zergs and protoss make me so jealous with your drop defense, all i can do is build 4-5 turrets in every base :D Obviously counter-dropping is the way to go. Real men don't need to defend. | ||
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
On May 14 2013 21:19 Bagi wrote: According to Blizzard the winrates are looking good right now. It's not like the AOE of other races ceased to exist once widow mines were introduced, marines are as fragile as they ever were. The difference is that terrans have microed (or at least tried to) every part of their army for the last 2-3 years, where as zergs are only now starting to learn. God I agree with this statement an unbelievable amount. | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On May 14 2013 23:39 Targe wrote: God I agree with this statement an unbelievable amount. Too true, queue the QQ (Had to say it.  )I was one of the many Terran who belly ached about the need to master bio splits. Heh. | ||
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Nimix
France1809 Posts
Also someone talked about the JD vs theognis game on Akilon. I'm sorry to say that but Jaedong did a poor job at defending the drops, and that's what cost him the game (which was still kind of close for a while regardless..), so not a really good example. | ||
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
I don't think a mine nerf is necessary. terrans are still losing to roach/baneling timings even with mines, due to lack of siege tanks. Any kind of mine nerf will make these builds much stronger, probably undefendable without tanks. on the other hand hand bio-tank + mine could be pretty cool to see vs muta/ling/baneling. hellbats I'm less sure about. The amount of damage hellbat drops can do even sheen you see them coming is pretty absurd. | ||
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stratmatt
United States913 Posts
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Greendotz
United Kingdom2053 Posts
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On May 15 2013 00:24 stratmatt wrote: I think that even though there is a mass of zerg complainers crying about widow mines right now, that there wont be so many in the future once the average zerg learns to deal with it. IMO mines are not that reliable of a unit and terran players are basically counting on their opponents to be bad at dealing with them. Once the mine is figured out I dont think we will see it as much anymore because the success of any widow mine takes a lot of luck with how random they are. I still feel marine tank medivac is the strongest composition for the midgame. Cutting out mines gives you more tanks and more marines, and as everyone knows, marines are the best unit in the game. I just dont think this mine bio style will last. Tanks are a poor substitute. They cost too much gas which cuts into your upgrades/marauder production, and pure marine/tank gets absolutely crushed against HOTS ultralisks whereas in WOL you could fight ultra armies to some extent with it. Vipers also obviously counter tanks very hard, you get blinding clouded if you try to turtle and eaten alive by ultras if you try to move out in the open. Mines, hellbats and even lategame thors and ravens are all much better support for bio TvZ. | ||
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
Also, people saying zergs can't micro and terrans are oh so good at it because of zerg only a-moving are retarded. Play a game as zerg yourself, see how it suits you. Don't even think for a moment zerg in zvt is any less micro intensive than terran. | ||
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