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On May 14 2013 21:19 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 21:00 DemigodcelpH wrote:On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote:
in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity.
those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off.
Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill)
Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player)
for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay
They're perfectly balanced. No, you cannot win by mindlessly a-moving (as easily) anymore. Yes, it's probably a shocking experience for you. Does every game balance discussion have to have 10% of the posts consist of variations of "LOL you can't win with no skill anymore, L2P"? What is the purpose of saying this? What does this add to the discussion?
It adds something that is, at least in part, true. You can deal with Widow Mines if you learn to play better. That's a pretty well-established fact.
The only question is whether the skill necessary to deal with WMs is so much greater than the skill necessary to use WMs that a Zerg player must be substantially better than the Terran player to be on an even playing field.
Personally, I don't think so. I agree that it's more that Zergs haven't needed to use this kind of micro before and are going to have to learn to use it. It's not that they need more skill, just different skills than they're used to using.
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why no fungal buff with more air damage? u would have 2 options in ZvZ after this buff:
1. ling infestor with heavy upgraded lings into fast hive etc..
2. ling muta with heavy upgraded lings again..
i guess i am the only one who thinks that might work :/
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On May 14 2013 21:42 FOREIGN735 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 14 2013 21:34 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 21:21 FOREIGN735 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 14 2013 21:16 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote:
in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity.
those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off.
Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill)
Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player)
for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay
- Learn to scout, a unit on watchtower, a supply depot/pylon/Overlord at the edges of your base.
- Learn to read your minimap every 5 seconds.
- Learn to anticipate the drop and counter the drop
- Learn to select workers and move them in two different directions before the medivac drops the hellbats, THEN a-move your army towards the droped hellbats and
- Learn to kite ranged units to stay out of hellbat range.
- Learn the hold command so your units don't wander into widow mine territory
And that's how you defend vs. WM or hellbat drop at the most basic levels. my main point isnt that I don't know what to do vs WM the point is that the best trade possible for zerg vs mines is 1/4 of the ressources that mines cost the ZvsT matchup just dont feel fair anymore..i think many players would agree with me (even progamer) and all Blizzard is doing is to fix the spore because of ZvsZ? guys ZvZ TvT and PvP are balanced..no matter what blizzard is going to chance! That's like saying it's unfair for DTs to destroy my army that has no detection! If you've been following the strategy forum you know that infestors can clear up mines with ALL of their abilities: - infested Terran, 50mp, range 9, spawns egg which hatches into ranged unit for 30s
- fungal growth, 75mp, AoE 2.0 radius, range 10, reveals mines and damages them 30 damage.
- neural parasite, 100mp, range 7, control widow mine for 15s
And this is in addition to triggers by ling run-in, overseer's unshifted changeling. I'm sorry but if the Zerg have one unit that can deal with widow mines with nothing but mp, you have nothing to complain about. Some honest opinions, learn-to-play or get a refund and stick with WoL. you get mines faster than infestors! mines are cheaper! mines have cloak without tech! mines require almost no APM! and also The Terran gameplay is micro heavy-->just call mules and u ll be fine!! while as a zerg you have to inject+creepspread otherwise you are f***ked vs a good terran. please stop this L2P issue..its just stupid - i am just saying its way too hard to deal with mines, while on the other side they require almost 0 skill to be used. the best 1% of all sc2 is maybe able to trade good vs mines - but i think on this level its not the balance it is the PLAYER SKILL that decides who wins.
Look if I end up covering both your bases' exits with widow mine network that you can't deal with despite having "superior skills", you might want to re-check your definition of superior. Review your replays, maybe you could have spotted my factory building a reactor and not seeing any hellions?
I mean, if you are losing games over the loss of 25m zerglings to 75m/25g widow mines which reload slower than a zergling...
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On May 14 2013 20:55 Grumbels wrote:
If Blizzard is willing to do this to fix ZvZ, and give widow mines bonus to shields to help them vs protoss, then why can't they do stuff like give banelings additional damage to shields?
Because they don't see a matchup imbalance where they need to give Zerg additional splash damage against Protoss ground?
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On May 14 2013 21:49 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 21:19 Chocobo wrote:On May 14 2013 21:00 DemigodcelpH wrote:On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote:
in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity.
those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off.
Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill)
Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player)
for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay
They're perfectly balanced. No, you cannot win by mindlessly a-moving (as easily) anymore. Yes, it's probably a shocking experience for you. Does every game balance discussion have to have 10% of the posts consist of variations of "LOL you can't win with no skill anymore, L2P"? What is the purpose of saying this? What does this add to the discussion? It adds something that is, at least in part, true. You can deal with Widow Mines if you learn to play better. That's a pretty well-established fact. The only question is whether the skill necessary to deal with WMs is so much greater than the skill necessary to use WMs that a Zerg player must be substantially better than the Terran player to be on an even playing field.Personally, I don't think so. I agree that it's more that Zergs haven't needed to use this kind of micro before and are going to have to learn to use it. It's not that they need more skill, just different skills than they're used to using.
Terran players are ranked noticeably lower on the ladder on average. So no they don't zerg is in fact easier at lower levels.
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On May 14 2013 21:42 FOREIGN735 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 14 2013 21:34 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 21:21 FOREIGN735 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 14 2013 21:16 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote:
in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity.
those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off.
Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill)
Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player)
for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay
- Learn to scout, a unit on watchtower, a supply depot/pylon/Overlord at the edges of your base.
- Learn to read your minimap every 5 seconds.
- Learn to anticipate the drop and counter the drop
- Learn to select workers and move them in two different directions before the medivac drops the hellbats, THEN a-move your army towards the droped hellbats and
- Learn to kite ranged units to stay out of hellbat range.
- Learn the hold command so your units don't wander into widow mine territory
And that's how you defend vs. WM or hellbat drop at the most basic levels. my main point isnt that I don't know what to do vs WM the point is that the best trade possible for zerg vs mines is 1/4 of the ressources that mines cost the ZvsT matchup just dont feel fair anymore..i think many players would agree with me (even progamer) and all Blizzard is doing is to fix the spore because of ZvsZ? guys ZvZ TvT and PvP are balanced..no matter what blizzard is going to chance! That's like saying it's unfair for DTs to destroy my army that has no detection! If you've been following the strategy forum you know that infestors can clear up mines with ALL of their abilities: - infested Terran, 50mp, range 9, spawns egg which hatches into ranged unit for 30s
- fungal growth, 75mp, AoE 2.0 radius, range 10, reveals mines and damages them 30 damage.
- neural parasite, 100mp, range 7, control widow mine for 15s
And this is in addition to triggers by ling run-in, overseer's unshifted changeling. I'm sorry but if the Zerg have one unit that can deal with widow mines with nothing but mp, you have nothing to complain about. Some honest opinions, learn-to-play or get a refund and stick with WoL. you get mines faster than infestors! mines are cheaper! mines have cloak without tech! mines require almost no APM! and also The Terran gameplay is micro heavy-->just call mules and u ll be fine!! while as a zerg you have to inject+creepspread otherwise you are f***ked vs a good terran. please stop this L2P issue..its just stupid - i am just saying its way too hard to deal with mines, while on the other side they require almost 0 skill to be used. the best 1% of all sc2 is maybe able to trade good vs mines - but i think on this level its not the balance it is the PLAYER SKILL that decides who wins.
You know what? Im gonna let you whine about this since every terran has whined about banelings and infestors at some point in their career. And please you act as if we dont build stuff too -_-. Practice more. Inject and creep spread should be muscle memory by now.
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On May 14 2013 21:27 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 21:19 Bagi wrote:On May 14 2013 21:02 Chocobo wrote:On May 14 2013 20:50 Bagi wrote:On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote:
in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity.
those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off.
Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill)
What you are describing is exactly how terran players felt for most of WOL, having to micro their ass off against any kind of AOE while their opponents had it much easier. And it wasn't a good thing then either. I'm in favor of balancing the game, not giving each race equal time of being too strong. According to Blizzard the winrates are looking good right now. It's not like the AOE of other races ceased to exist once widow mines were introduced, marines are as fragile as they ever were. Maybe this is true. I would be very interested in seeing the TvZ winrate for various skill levels (diamond league, low masters, mid masters) for games where mines were heavily used. If it is near 50% I'd love to see some replays to discover how diamond and lower masters players are dealing with bio mine effectively (I'd hope it's not a roach allin every game). Show nested quote +The difference is that terrans have microed (or at least tried to) every part of their army for the last 2-3 years, where as zergs are only now starting to learn. Oh please.
"Maybe this is true, but I'm going to imply zergs only win by all-inning against mines." Okay?
Why "oh please"? For the record I don't mean zergs haven't microed at all, but this specific type of anti-mine micro is a completely new thing for zergs to deal with. Just like it took terrans half a year to realize they could even split against banes, it will take some time for zergs to get comfortable against mines.
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lol now zergs know how terrans felt when they would instantly lose like 30 marines thanks to a couple burrowed banelings. cant believe that zergs of all players would QQ about something like that. so sorry you cant just send a pack of zerglings into a mineral line from across the map using only the minimap and without ever looking at where they are going anymore
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On May 14 2013 21:34 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 21:21 FOREIGN735 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 14 2013 21:16 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote:
in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity.
those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off.
Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill)
Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player)
for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay
- Learn to scout, a unit on watchtower, a supply depot/pylon/Overlord at the edges of your base.
- Learn to read your minimap every 5 seconds.
- Learn to anticipate the drop and counter the drop
- Learn to select workers and move them in two different directions before the medivac drops the hellbats, THEN a-move your army towards the droped hellbats and
- Learn to kite ranged units to stay out of hellbat range.
- Learn the hold command so your units don't wander into widow mine territory
And that's how you defend vs. WM or hellbat drop at the most basic levels. my main point isnt that I don't know what to do vs WM the point is that the best trade possible for zerg vs mines is 1/4 of the ressources that mines cost the ZvsT matchup just dont feel fair anymore..i think many players would agree with me (even progamer) and all Blizzard is doing is to fix the spore because of ZvsZ? guys ZvZ TvT and PvP are balanced..no matter what blizzard is going to chance! That's like saying it's unfair for DTs to destroy my army that has no detection! If you've been following the strategy forum you know that infestors can clear up mines with ALL of their abilities: - infested Terran, 50mp, range 9, spawns egg which hatches into ranged unit for 30s
- fungal growth, 75mp, AoE 2.0 radius, range 10, reveals mines and damages them 30 damage.
- neural parasite, 100mp, range 7, control widow mine for 15s
And this is in addition to triggers by ling run-in, overseer's unshifted changeling. I'm sorry but if the Zerg have one unit that can deal with widow mines with nothing but mp, you have nothing to complain about. Some honest opinions, learn-to-play or get a refund and stick with WoL.
The problem is not that there is no counter. The problem is that the counter is significantly more difficult than any other counter to a unit comp in the game. If it was a matter of "don't run 10 clumped banelings over a widow mine" or "just get detection and go around the mines" or "make some of these units which are good against mines, and micro them like this" then it would be great.
But when there's a ball of MMM poking around, using the mines for cover, guarding the mines from mine-clearing suicide lings, etc... it is very difficult to avoid engaging that without being so cost-inefficient that you lose the game. It is far more difficult than splitting marines up, or positioning your units in a particular way.
After 50+ attempts with roach/hydra/viper I doubt this unit comp has any future in ZvT. It's less bad against mines, but it's very weak vs bio when there's no blinding cloud, and cloud is easy for terran to evade.
If there's a counter for this skill level it seems like it has to be infested terrans. The problem is that the mines take too long to fire, so marines kill the eggs and the mine cancels its firing animation. If only mines fired instantly (like almost every other unit) then zerg's problems would be solved.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 14 2013 22:04 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 21:34 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On May 14 2013 21:21 FOREIGN735 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 14 2013 21:16 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote:
in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity.
those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off.
Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill)
Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player)
for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay
- Learn to scout, a unit on watchtower, a supply depot/pylon/Overlord at the edges of your base.
- Learn to read your minimap every 5 seconds.
- Learn to anticipate the drop and counter the drop
- Learn to select workers and move them in two different directions before the medivac drops the hellbats, THEN a-move your army towards the droped hellbats and
- Learn to kite ranged units to stay out of hellbat range.
- Learn the hold command so your units don't wander into widow mine territory
And that's how you defend vs. WM or hellbat drop at the most basic levels. my main point isnt that I don't know what to do vs WM the point is that the best trade possible for zerg vs mines is 1/4 of the ressources that mines cost the ZvsT matchup just dont feel fair anymore..i think many players would agree with me (even progamer) and all Blizzard is doing is to fix the spore because of ZvsZ? guys ZvZ TvT and PvP are balanced..no matter what blizzard is going to chance! That's like saying it's unfair for DTs to destroy my army that has no detection! If you've been following the strategy forum you know that infestors can clear up mines with ALL of their abilities: - infested Terran, 50mp, range 9, spawns egg which hatches into ranged unit for 30s
- fungal growth, 75mp, AoE 2.0 radius, range 10, reveals mines and damages them 30 damage.
- neural parasite, 100mp, range 7, control widow mine for 15s
And this is in addition to triggers by ling run-in, overseer's unshifted changeling. I'm sorry but if the Zerg have one unit that can deal with widow mines with nothing but mp, you have nothing to complain about. Some honest opinions, learn-to-play or get a refund and stick with WoL. The problem is not that there is no counter. The problem is that the counter is significantly more difficult than any other counter to a unit comp in the game. If it was a matter of "don't run 10 clumped banelings over a widow mine" or "just get detection and go around the mines" or "make some of these units which are good against mines, and micro them like this" then it would be great. But when there's a ball of MMM poking around, using the mines for cover, guarding the mines from mine-clearing suicide lings, etc... it is very difficult to avoid engaging that without being so cost-inefficient that you lose the game. It is far more difficult than splitting marines up, or positioning your units in a particular way. After 50+ attempts with roach/hydra/viper I doubt this unit comp has any future in ZvT. It's less bad against mines, but it's very weak vs bio when there's no blinding cloud, and cloud is easy for terran to evade. If there's a counter for this skill level it seems like it has to be infested terrans. The problem is that the mines take too long to fire, so marines kill the eggs and the mine cancels its firing animation. If only mines fired instantly (like almost every other unit) then zerg's problems would be solved.
i totaly agree with you
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On May 14 2013 22:04 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 21:34 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On May 14 2013 21:21 FOREIGN735 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 14 2013 21:16 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote:
in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity.
those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off.
Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill)
Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player)
for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay
- Learn to scout, a unit on watchtower, a supply depot/pylon/Overlord at the edges of your base.
- Learn to read your minimap every 5 seconds.
- Learn to anticipate the drop and counter the drop
- Learn to select workers and move them in two different directions before the medivac drops the hellbats, THEN a-move your army towards the droped hellbats and
- Learn to kite ranged units to stay out of hellbat range.
- Learn the hold command so your units don't wander into widow mine territory
And that's how you defend vs. WM or hellbat drop at the most basic levels. my main point isnt that I don't know what to do vs WM the point is that the best trade possible for zerg vs mines is 1/4 of the ressources that mines cost the ZvsT matchup just dont feel fair anymore..i think many players would agree with me (even progamer) and all Blizzard is doing is to fix the spore because of ZvsZ? guys ZvZ TvT and PvP are balanced..no matter what blizzard is going to chance! That's like saying it's unfair for DTs to destroy my army that has no detection! If you've been following the strategy forum you know that infestors can clear up mines with ALL of their abilities: - infested Terran, 50mp, range 9, spawns egg which hatches into ranged unit for 30s
- fungal growth, 75mp, AoE 2.0 radius, range 10, reveals mines and damages them 30 damage.
- neural parasite, 100mp, range 7, control widow mine for 15s
And this is in addition to triggers by ling run-in, overseer's unshifted changeling. I'm sorry but if the Zerg have one unit that can deal with widow mines with nothing but mp, you have nothing to complain about. Some honest opinions, learn-to-play or get a refund and stick with WoL. The problem is not that there is no counter. The problem is that the counter is significantly more difficult than any other counter to a unit comp in the game. If it was a matter of "don't run 10 clumped banelings over a widow mine" or "just get detection and go around the mines" or "make some of these units which are good against mines, and micro them like this" then it would be great. But when there's a ball of MMM poking around, using the mines for cover, guarding the mines from mine-clearing suicide lings, etc... it is very difficult to avoid engaging that without being so cost-inefficient that you lose the game. It is far more difficult than splitting marines up, or positioning your units in a particular way.After 50+ attempts with roach/hydra/viper I doubt this unit comp has any future in ZvT. It's less bad against mines, but it's very weak vs bio when there's no blinding cloud, and cloud is easy for terran to evade. If there's a counter for this skill level it seems like it has to be infested terrans. The problem is that the mines take too long to fire, so marines kill the eggs and the mine cancels its firing animation. If only mines fired instantly (like almost every other unit) then zerg's problems would be solved.
No.
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confession bear: i loved zvz with mutas 
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On May 14 2013 21:49 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 21:19 Chocobo wrote:On May 14 2013 21:00 DemigodcelpH wrote:On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote:
in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity.
those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off.
Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill)
Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player)
for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay
They're perfectly balanced. No, you cannot win by mindlessly a-moving (as easily) anymore. Yes, it's probably a shocking experience for you. Does every game balance discussion have to have 10% of the posts consist of variations of "LOL you can't win with no skill anymore, L2P"? What is the purpose of saying this? What does this add to the discussion? It adds something that is, at least in part, true. You can deal with Widow Mines if you learn to play better. That's a pretty well-established fact. The only question is whether the skill necessary to deal with WMs is so much greater than the skill necessary to use WMs that a Zerg player must be substantially better than the Terran player to be on an even playing field. Personally, I don't think so. I agree that it's more that Zergs haven't needed to use this kind of micro before and are going to have to learn to use it. It's not that they need more skill, just different skills than they're used to using.
That logic is flawed. It's easier to fungal units then it is to avoid fungal (even now), it's easier to A-move Ultras than it is to kite them, etc..not the best examples but you get my point.
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On May 14 2013 22:04 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 21:34 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On May 14 2013 21:21 FOREIGN735 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 14 2013 21:16 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote:
in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity.
those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off.
Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill)
Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player)
for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay
- Learn to scout, a unit on watchtower, a supply depot/pylon/Overlord at the edges of your base.
- Learn to read your minimap every 5 seconds.
- Learn to anticipate the drop and counter the drop
- Learn to select workers and move them in two different directions before the medivac drops the hellbats, THEN a-move your army towards the droped hellbats and
- Learn to kite ranged units to stay out of hellbat range.
- Learn the hold command so your units don't wander into widow mine territory
And that's how you defend vs. WM or hellbat drop at the most basic levels. my main point isnt that I don't know what to do vs WM the point is that the best trade possible for zerg vs mines is 1/4 of the ressources that mines cost the ZvsT matchup just dont feel fair anymore..i think many players would agree with me (even progamer) and all Blizzard is doing is to fix the spore because of ZvsZ? guys ZvZ TvT and PvP are balanced..no matter what blizzard is going to chance! That's like saying it's unfair for DTs to destroy my army that has no detection! If you've been following the strategy forum you know that infestors can clear up mines with ALL of their abilities: - infested Terran, 50mp, range 9, spawns egg which hatches into ranged unit for 30s
- fungal growth, 75mp, AoE 2.0 radius, range 10, reveals mines and damages them 30 damage.
- neural parasite, 100mp, range 7, control widow mine for 15s
And this is in addition to triggers by ling run-in, overseer's unshifted changeling. I'm sorry but if the Zerg have one unit that can deal with widow mines with nothing but mp, you have nothing to complain about. Some honest opinions, learn-to-play or get a refund and stick with WoL. The problem is not that there is no counter. The problem is that the counter is significantly more difficult than any other counter to a unit comp in the game. If it was a matter of "don't run 10 clumped banelings over a widow mine" or "just get detection and go around the mines" or "make some of these units which are good against mines, and micro them like this" then it would be great. But when there's a ball of MMM poking around, using the mines for cover, guarding the mines from mine-clearing suicide lings, etc... it is very difficult to avoid engaging that without being so cost-inefficient that you lose the game. It is far more difficult than splitting marines up, or positioning your units in a particular way. After 50+ attempts with roach/hydra/viper I doubt this unit comp has any future in ZvT. It's less bad against mines, but it's very weak vs bio when there's no blinding cloud, and cloud is easy for terran to evade. If there's a counter for this skill level it seems like it has to be infested terrans. The problem is that the mines take too long to fire, so marines kill the eggs and the mine cancels its firing animation. If only mines fired instantly (like almost every other unit) then zerg's problems would be solved.
Man you were doing fine until you got to the point where you said that eggs were easy to kill. THIS ISNT MECH DUDE. Dont throw the eggs INTO the middle of the marines -_-.
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On May 14 2013 22:09 padfoota wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 22:04 Chocobo wrote:On May 14 2013 21:34 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On May 14 2013 21:21 FOREIGN735 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 14 2013 21:16 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote:
in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity.
those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off.
Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill)
Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player)
for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay
- Learn to scout, a unit on watchtower, a supply depot/pylon/Overlord at the edges of your base.
- Learn to read your minimap every 5 seconds.
- Learn to anticipate the drop and counter the drop
- Learn to select workers and move them in two different directions before the medivac drops the hellbats, THEN a-move your army towards the droped hellbats and
- Learn to kite ranged units to stay out of hellbat range.
- Learn the hold command so your units don't wander into widow mine territory
And that's how you defend vs. WM or hellbat drop at the most basic levels. my main point isnt that I don't know what to do vs WM the point is that the best trade possible for zerg vs mines is 1/4 of the ressources that mines cost the ZvsT matchup just dont feel fair anymore..i think many players would agree with me (even progamer) and all Blizzard is doing is to fix the spore because of ZvsZ? guys ZvZ TvT and PvP are balanced..no matter what blizzard is going to chance! That's like saying it's unfair for DTs to destroy my army that has no detection! If you've been following the strategy forum you know that infestors can clear up mines with ALL of their abilities: - infested Terran, 50mp, range 9, spawns egg which hatches into ranged unit for 30s
- fungal growth, 75mp, AoE 2.0 radius, range 10, reveals mines and damages them 30 damage.
- neural parasite, 100mp, range 7, control widow mine for 15s
And this is in addition to triggers by ling run-in, overseer's unshifted changeling. I'm sorry but if the Zerg have one unit that can deal with widow mines with nothing but mp, you have nothing to complain about. Some honest opinions, learn-to-play or get a refund and stick with WoL. The problem is not that there is no counter. The problem is that the counter is significantly more difficult than any other counter to a unit comp in the game. If it was a matter of "don't run 10 clumped banelings over a widow mine" or "just get detection and go around the mines" or "make some of these units which are good against mines, and micro them like this" then it would be great. But when there's a ball of MMM poking around, using the mines for cover, guarding the mines from mine-clearing suicide lings, etc... it is very difficult to avoid engaging that without being so cost-inefficient that you lose the game. It is far more difficult than splitting marines up, or positioning your units in a particular way. After 50+ attempts with roach/hydra/viper I doubt this unit comp has any future in ZvT. It's less bad against mines, but it's very weak vs bio when there's no blinding cloud, and cloud is easy for terran to evade. If there's a counter for this skill level it seems like it has to be infested terrans. The problem is that the mines take too long to fire, so marines kill the eggs and the mine cancels its firing animation. If only mines fired instantly (like almost every other unit) then zerg's problems would be solved. Man you were doing fine until you got to the point where you said that eggs were easy to kill. THIS ISNT MECH DUDE. Dont throw the eggs INTO the middle of the marines -_-.
Um... Actually, having a burrowed infestor drop an egg on top a MMMM army is the ultimate troll.
WHY ARE MY MINES KILLING MEEEE!
*T reloads replay, sees eggs land into the middle of the bio+mine army triggering widow mines, that you-have-been-trolled feel.
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On May 14 2013 09:36 Spec wrote:
Cooldown = 0.8608
Dmg = 45
That's 52 dps. Jesus christ, that ought to send a message. Yeah... also blizz seconds
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On May 14 2013 22:03 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 21:27 Chocobo wrote:On May 14 2013 21:19 Bagi wrote:On May 14 2013 21:02 Chocobo wrote:On May 14 2013 20:50 Bagi wrote:On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote:
in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity.
those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off.
Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill)
What you are describing is exactly how terran players felt for most of WOL, having to micro their ass off against any kind of AOE while their opponents had it much easier. And it wasn't a good thing then either. I'm in favor of balancing the game, not giving each race equal time of being too strong. According to Blizzard the winrates are looking good right now. It's not like the AOE of other races ceased to exist once widow mines were introduced, marines are as fragile as they ever were. Maybe this is true. I would be very interested in seeing the TvZ winrate for various skill levels (diamond league, low masters, mid masters) for games where mines were heavily used. If it is near 50% I'd love to see some replays to discover how diamond and lower masters players are dealing with bio mine effectively (I'd hope it's not a roach allin every game). The difference is that terrans have microed (or at least tried to) every part of their army for the last 2-3 years, where as zergs are only now starting to learn. Oh please. Why "oh please"? For the record I don't mean zergs haven't microed at all, but this specific type of anti-mine micro is a completely new thing for zergs to deal with. Just like it took terrans half a year to realize they could even split against banes, it will take some time for zergs to get comfortable against mines.
It sounded like yet another insult along the lines of "zergs use zero micro and they're all bad". Your point about learning to deal with mines is valid... as of December. It has been close to 5 months and there are no reliable counters to bio mine other than mastering the precise anti-mine micro... something that is simply out of the reach of most players.
Suppose baneling splash damage area was larger and your marine splits had to be flawless to be useful at all. Would you say "look, Marineking can do it, so just get better at it and make sure you don't mess it up!" or would you recognize that it's just not good gameplay at below-pro skill levels?
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On May 14 2013 22:15 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 22:09 padfoota wrote:On May 14 2013 22:04 Chocobo wrote:On May 14 2013 21:34 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On May 14 2013 21:21 FOREIGN735 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 14 2013 21:16 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote:
in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity.
those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off.
Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill)
Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player)
for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay
- Learn to scout, a unit on watchtower, a supply depot/pylon/Overlord at the edges of your base.
- Learn to read your minimap every 5 seconds.
- Learn to anticipate the drop and counter the drop
- Learn to select workers and move them in two different directions before the medivac drops the hellbats, THEN a-move your army towards the droped hellbats and
- Learn to kite ranged units to stay out of hellbat range.
- Learn the hold command so your units don't wander into widow mine territory
And that's how you defend vs. WM or hellbat drop at the most basic levels. my main point isnt that I don't know what to do vs WM the point is that the best trade possible for zerg vs mines is 1/4 of the ressources that mines cost the ZvsT matchup just dont feel fair anymore..i think many players would agree with me (even progamer) and all Blizzard is doing is to fix the spore because of ZvsZ? guys ZvZ TvT and PvP are balanced..no matter what blizzard is going to chance! That's like saying it's unfair for DTs to destroy my army that has no detection! If you've been following the strategy forum you know that infestors can clear up mines with ALL of their abilities: - infested Terran, 50mp, range 9, spawns egg which hatches into ranged unit for 30s
- fungal growth, 75mp, AoE 2.0 radius, range 10, reveals mines and damages them 30 damage.
- neural parasite, 100mp, range 7, control widow mine for 15s
And this is in addition to triggers by ling run-in, overseer's unshifted changeling. I'm sorry but if the Zerg have one unit that can deal with widow mines with nothing but mp, you have nothing to complain about. Some honest opinions, learn-to-play or get a refund and stick with WoL. The problem is not that there is no counter. The problem is that the counter is significantly more difficult than any other counter to a unit comp in the game. If it was a matter of "don't run 10 clumped banelings over a widow mine" or "just get detection and go around the mines" or "make some of these units which are good against mines, and micro them like this" then it would be great. But when there's a ball of MMM poking around, using the mines for cover, guarding the mines from mine-clearing suicide lings, etc... it is very difficult to avoid engaging that without being so cost-inefficient that you lose the game. It is far more difficult than splitting marines up, or positioning your units in a particular way. After 50+ attempts with roach/hydra/viper I doubt this unit comp has any future in ZvT. It's less bad against mines, but it's very weak vs bio when there's no blinding cloud, and cloud is easy for terran to evade. If there's a counter for this skill level it seems like it has to be infested terrans. The problem is that the mines take too long to fire, so marines kill the eggs and the mine cancels its firing animation. If only mines fired instantly (like almost every other unit) then zerg's problems would be solved. Man you were doing fine until you got to the point where you said that eggs were easy to kill. THIS ISNT MECH DUDE. Dont throw the eggs INTO the middle of the marines -_-. Um... Actually, having a burrowed infestor drop an egg on top a MMMM army is the ultimate troll. WHY ARE MY MINES KILLING MEEEE!*T reloads replay, sees eggs land into the middle of the bio+mine army triggering widow mines, that you-have-been-trolled feel.
bro, eggs have 70ish HP, either the guy doesn't have much of an army together, or you're spending a lot of energy to troll, lol
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On May 14 2013 22:07 stratmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 22:04 Chocobo wrote:On May 14 2013 21:34 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On May 14 2013 21:21 FOREIGN735 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 14 2013 21:16 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote:
in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity.
those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off.
Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill)
Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player)
for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay
- Learn to scout, a unit on watchtower, a supply depot/pylon/Overlord at the edges of your base.
- Learn to read your minimap every 5 seconds.
- Learn to anticipate the drop and counter the drop
- Learn to select workers and move them in two different directions before the medivac drops the hellbats, THEN a-move your army towards the droped hellbats and
- Learn to kite ranged units to stay out of hellbat range.
- Learn the hold command so your units don't wander into widow mine territory
And that's how you defend vs. WM or hellbat drop at the most basic levels. my main point isnt that I don't know what to do vs WM the point is that the best trade possible for zerg vs mines is 1/4 of the ressources that mines cost the ZvsT matchup just dont feel fair anymore..i think many players would agree with me (even progamer) and all Blizzard is doing is to fix the spore because of ZvsZ? guys ZvZ TvT and PvP are balanced..no matter what blizzard is going to chance! That's like saying it's unfair for DTs to destroy my army that has no detection! If you've been following the strategy forum you know that infestors can clear up mines with ALL of their abilities: - infested Terran, 50mp, range 9, spawns egg which hatches into ranged unit for 30s
- fungal growth, 75mp, AoE 2.0 radius, range 10, reveals mines and damages them 30 damage.
- neural parasite, 100mp, range 7, control widow mine for 15s
And this is in addition to triggers by ling run-in, overseer's unshifted changeling. I'm sorry but if the Zerg have one unit that can deal with widow mines with nothing but mp, you have nothing to complain about. Some honest opinions, learn-to-play or get a refund and stick with WoL. The problem is not that there is no counter. The problem is that the counter is significantly more difficult than any other counter to a unit comp in the game. If it was a matter of "don't run 10 clumped banelings over a widow mine" or "just get detection and go around the mines" or "make some of these units which are good against mines, and micro them like this" then it would be great. But when there's a ball of MMM poking around, using the mines for cover, guarding the mines from mine-clearing suicide lings, etc... it is very difficult to avoid engaging that without being so cost-inefficient that you lose the game. It is far more difficult than splitting marines up, or positioning your units in a particular way.After 50+ attempts with roach/hydra/viper I doubt this unit comp has any future in ZvT. It's less bad against mines, but it's very weak vs bio when there's no blinding cloud, and cloud is easy for terran to evade. If there's a counter for this skill level it seems like it has to be infested terrans. The problem is that the mines take too long to fire, so marines kill the eggs and the mine cancels its firing animation. If only mines fired instantly (like almost every other unit) then zerg's problems would be solved. No.
Explain.
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On May 14 2013 22:19 nanaoei wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 22:15 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On May 14 2013 22:09 padfoota wrote:On May 14 2013 22:04 Chocobo wrote:On May 14 2013 21:34 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On May 14 2013 21:21 FOREIGN735 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 14 2013 21:16 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote:
in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity.
those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off.
Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill)
Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player)
for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay
- Learn to scout, a unit on watchtower, a supply depot/pylon/Overlord at the edges of your base.
- Learn to read your minimap every 5 seconds.
- Learn to anticipate the drop and counter the drop
- Learn to select workers and move them in two different directions before the medivac drops the hellbats, THEN a-move your army towards the droped hellbats and
- Learn to kite ranged units to stay out of hellbat range.
- Learn the hold command so your units don't wander into widow mine territory
And that's how you defend vs. WM or hellbat drop at the most basic levels. my main point isnt that I don't know what to do vs WM the point is that the best trade possible for zerg vs mines is 1/4 of the ressources that mines cost the ZvsT matchup just dont feel fair anymore..i think many players would agree with me (even progamer) and all Blizzard is doing is to fix the spore because of ZvsZ? guys ZvZ TvT and PvP are balanced..no matter what blizzard is going to chance! That's like saying it's unfair for DTs to destroy my army that has no detection! If you've been following the strategy forum you know that infestors can clear up mines with ALL of their abilities: - infested Terran, 50mp, range 9, spawns egg which hatches into ranged unit for 30s
- fungal growth, 75mp, AoE 2.0 radius, range 10, reveals mines and damages them 30 damage.
- neural parasite, 100mp, range 7, control widow mine for 15s
And this is in addition to triggers by ling run-in, overseer's unshifted changeling. I'm sorry but if the Zerg have one unit that can deal with widow mines with nothing but mp, you have nothing to complain about. Some honest opinions, learn-to-play or get a refund and stick with WoL. The problem is not that there is no counter. The problem is that the counter is significantly more difficult than any other counter to a unit comp in the game. If it was a matter of "don't run 10 clumped banelings over a widow mine" or "just get detection and go around the mines" or "make some of these units which are good against mines, and micro them like this" then it would be great. But when there's a ball of MMM poking around, using the mines for cover, guarding the mines from mine-clearing suicide lings, etc... it is very difficult to avoid engaging that without being so cost-inefficient that you lose the game. It is far more difficult than splitting marines up, or positioning your units in a particular way. After 50+ attempts with roach/hydra/viper I doubt this unit comp has any future in ZvT. It's less bad against mines, but it's very weak vs bio when there's no blinding cloud, and cloud is easy for terran to evade. If there's a counter for this skill level it seems like it has to be infested terrans. The problem is that the mines take too long to fire, so marines kill the eggs and the mine cancels its firing animation. If only mines fired instantly (like almost every other unit) then zerg's problems would be solved. Man you were doing fine until you got to the point where you said that eggs were easy to kill. THIS ISNT MECH DUDE. Dont throw the eggs INTO the middle of the marines -_-. Um... Actually, having a burrowed infestor drop an egg on top a MMMM army is the ultimate troll. WHY ARE MY MINES KILLING MEEEE!*T reloads replay, sees eggs land into the middle of the bio+mine army triggering widow mines, that you-have-been-trolled feel. bro, eggs have 70ish HP, either the guy doesn't have much of an army together, or you're spending a lot of energy to troll, lol
It's highly unlikely by the time infestors are out that the guy has the army big enough to kill 3 eggs under 1.5s that result in triggering 3 WMs. Given how upset zergs are now, I highly doubt T would be in danger any time soon, since you pretty much have to build a BO or ling/bling/infestor/muta + burrow research.
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EPT
