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Stol
Sweden185 Posts
 . On another note, a game is probably only really balanced when most actually agree that it is, or whats more likely in this case, when all races equally complain about how overpowered the other races are. The fact that its pretty much only zergs complaining about terrans and that the terrans are just defending their own race without complaining about zergs, well thats a pretty good indication in itself. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On May 17 2013 18:18 Snowbear wrote: Hmm interesting . So you can't go for a greedy third, mass cheap lings, and then have 6-7 swarmhosts at the terran base around 11:00? You go cheap lings, so you get a ton of minerals and gas. And 200-100 isn't that expensive then. Can't you have like 2000-1000 around 10:00? Then you can make 10 swarmhosts.no you cant. you also cant have 10 mutas at 10:00. you get like 7-8 i think but they give you map control etc. what you are suggesting is a 2 base SH all in. you have no upgrades, no or superlate 3rd base, no anti air and if you get 200 gas locust upgrade you will have gas for only 5-6 SHs. thats 10-12 locusts...lol. | ||
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Simsons2
Latvia73 Posts
Edit: But yeah as poster above me said already - 10 Swarmhosts - not going to happen by 10-11m , if you add 2-3 extra minutes - maybe by then. But what do I know i'm just a Plat scum And I tend to do different SH and SH+Nydus plays a lot against both terrans and toss | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
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Simsons2
Latvia73 Posts
On May 17 2013 18:40 Snowbear wrote: Well the future will tell. It will take a maximum of 2 months before the zvt meta is SH ling hydra. You will laugh that you ever played muta ling bling against the widowmine. The WM's aren't really that big of an issue , you need to cover the air so he can't f.e doom drop your bases while you are supply tied to sieging his front lines. | ||
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Cereb
Denmark3388 Posts
Also it's kind of weird to me that all this harsh balance discussion is allowed to be going on in this thread. There is a designated balance complain thread you can use for that. In my opinion this should be for discussing the actual change and not other hypothetical ones because something is "imba" or not to you. | ||
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pluu.mooh
Austria142 Posts
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
On May 17 2013 00:59 UltiBahamut wrote: lol. for the last month i've been working hard to get Roach/hydra/infestor to work and it actually works really well against most compositions of terrans as long as you play it correctly. But it gets absolutely crushed bypure bio, essentially marauder heavy compositions with a lot of medivacts (like 16+). Any type of buff for the hydra's will directly affect this MU which is why i say it most likely wont happen because blizzard is really not a fan of the hydra since it was a big unit in bw lol. That was a joke about the spore buff, I think it flew over your head. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On May 17 2013 18:40 Snowbear wrote: Well the future will tell. It will take a maximum of 2 months before the zvt meta is SH ling hydra. You will laugh that you ever played muta ling bling against the widowmine. hydra will never replace muta with their current stats. Muta are FAR better at providing what you need: AA, anti-drop capability and harassment potential. | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On May 17 2013 18:22 Stol wrote: Its always pretty funny to see these balance discussions where players defending their own race try to teach players from other races how to play . On another note, a game is probably only really balanced when most actually agree that it is, or whats more likely in this case, when all races equally complain about how overpowered the other races are. The fact that its pretty much only zergs complaining about terrans and that the terrans are just defending their own race without complaining about zergs, well thats a pretty good indication in itself. That's the problem in itself, Protoss and Terran players have been able to adapt to new build orders and new unit compositions, such as when iEchoic build/unit comp. came out and dominated the scene. In WoL, both top ladder P & T players kept their secrets claiming 75% win against Z in their respective ladders. This messed up statistics even though mechanically, Zerg have more tools for scouting than us (Creep AND overlords AND overseers), more powerful spell casters (Infestors, only caster with a damaging AND binding spell that also shoots stacking infantry AND mind control) and more powerful synergy (spine/spore forest supported by queens and invisible moving infestors and roaches). The result? Both Protoss and Terran units got nerfed or Zerg units got massively buffed. :-/ Think of our constructive feedback as a self-defense mechanism from the nerfbat. Edit: I need to add that SH make the spine forest/queen/overlord/infestor siege engine even more imba. I seriously wonder how long it'll take Z players to create a BO to abuse this unit comp on the ladder. | ||
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theinfamousone
United States103 Posts
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Stol
Sweden185 Posts
On May 18 2013 18:01 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: That's the problem in itself, Protoss and Terran players have been able to adapt to new build orders and new unit compositions, such as when iEchoic build/unit comp. came out and dominated the scene. In WoL, both top ladder P & T players kept their secrets claiming 75% win against Z in their respective ladders. This messed up statistics even though mechanically, Zerg have more tools for scouting than us (Creep AND overlords AND overseers), more powerful spell casters (Infestors, only caster with a damaging AND binding spell that also shoots stacking infantry AND mind control) and more powerful synergy (spine/spore forest supported by queens and invisible moving infestors and roaches). The result? Both Protoss and Terran units got nerfed or Zerg units got massively buffed. :-/ Think of our constructive feedback as a self-defense mechanism from the nerfbat. Edit: I need to add that SH make the spine forest/queen/overlord/infestor siege engine even more imba. I seriously wonder how long it'll take Z players to create a BO to abuse this unit comp on the ladder. I'm sorry, but I dont really understand what you're trying to say. I was simply pointing out that most people actually dont complain about things that are easy to handle, and when only one race is complaining, something is probably not right. If you meant that zerg had more scouting tools than "us", I'm first of all not really sure what "us" means. Coming from a terran it can be debatable as sentry towers and scans alone have probably always been the most powerful scouting tools in the game. Looking at a protoss I can sort of agree, as hallucination used to be an upgrade it would take some time before one could use it, same thing with observers, even though invisible detection in itself is pretty strong. One could also argue that zerg actually need more scouting than the other races due to mechanics, but thats another issue. Currently though, I'm not sure I would say zerg has better scouting than either protoss or terrans. Furthermore I would personally put protoss as the race with the most powerful spellcasters. Photon overcharge, mass recall and time warp are all very strong and at least time warp have really nice synergy with storm and forcefields. This in itself does however not mean that the game is broken, protoss did need photon overcharge for defence and mass recall simply meant that a protoss can actually retreat after some early pressure, instead of just losing their army most of the time. Comparing units in themselves never really works. So yes, infestors were really strong which I'm gussing is the reason they got quite a big nerf. People were complaining about their synergy in the lategame. Zergs were on the other hand not really complaining about the lategame at all. This was kinda my point from the start, zergs were probably a bit too strong in that department  . | ||
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
On May 18 2013 19:02 Stol wrote: I'm sorry, but I dont really understand what you're trying to say. I was simply pointing out that most people actually dont complain about things that are easy to handle, and when only one race is complaining, something is probably not right. If you meant that zerg had more scouting tools than "us", I'm first of all not really sure what "us" means. Coming from a terran it can be debatable as sentry towers and scans alone have probably always been the most powerful scouting tools in the game. Looking at a protoss I can sort of agree, as hallucination used to be an upgrade it would take some time before one could use it, same thing with observers, even though invisible detection in itself is pretty strong. One could also argue that zerg actually need more scouting than the other races due to mechanics, but thats another issue. wat. You're implying that sentry towers aren't lategame but that halluc is? That's just plain wrong, and the point he was making + Show Spoiler + regardless of whether it is right nor not On May 18 2013 18:25 theinfamousone wrote: Great patch. I don't see too much imbalance. I don't like insta wins that terran gets at lower levels sometimes. For example, if you proxy and get 3 reapers in an unsuspecting base in team games you just win right there. Team games will likely never get balanced, ever. | ||
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Simsons2
Latvia73 Posts
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lue
Sweden27 Posts
On May 17 2013 18:54 Cereb wrote: So I finally had the time to do alot of testing in the ZvZ and for me it has changed everything. Mutas doesn't even seem like the strongest style to me currently. I even beat a few zergs that seemed clearly better than me just by doing something different. I still think mutas has a place but this patch has been surprisingly amazing. Also it's kind of weird to me that all this harsh balance discussion is allowed to be going on in this thread. There is a designated balance complain thread you can use for that. In my opinion this should be for discussing the actual change and not other hypothetical ones because something is "imba" or not to you. Out of curiousity, what style are you trying now ? Personally I've only had to change how I use the mutas but aside from having slightly slower matches, I'm still winning about 80%. | ||
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SsDrKosS
330 Posts
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