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On May 15 2013 00:31 Greendotz wrote:
so spores' now 3-shot mutas regardless of defense upgrades? I feel that should definately deter zerg players from believing their only option is to go mass muta ball
Not really, Mutas allow you to siege your oponent in two bases while you get the third. Mutas still give you map control, and if the other guy uses 8 drones and 1200 mine to build spores, good for you.
This change just allow the other zerg to prepare to counter the muta ball with a shitton of infestors and hidras, but ling bling destroy hidras so hard...
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Horrible change imo. It won't actually change much in terms of playstyle but only dragging out the game. The power of mutas was always to be able to contain the opponent and prevent them from taking third/forth which is by no way altered now. While it helps some agaisnt harrasing and prevent the muta player from baseracing i don't feel there is any difference. Other styles than mutas was still being used (while rarely) and I think they will see more prevalance regardless of the change to spore or not. In fact the game between goswser and revival in wcs featured roach hydra vs roach swarm host.
On the other hand the downside is that games take a lot longer than they should with the losing player dragging out the game forever. Just had a zvz where I killed of his mutas and contained him on 2 base and he just build mass spores so I can't kill him. had to wait another 10 min while im 6 base vs two to max out on ultras to kill him. Imo this is the only change the spore buff acomplished, preventing the winning player to end the game fast.
Also I never found muta vs muta a bad or boring matchup. I really enjoy it and find it a lot more fun then the roach wars in WoL and other styles will always be experienced upon even if one is very dominant.
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On May 15 2013 01:03 Incand wrote:
Horrible change imo. It won't actually change much in terms of playstyle but only dragging out the game. The power of mutas was always to be able to contain the opponent and prevent them from taking third/forth which is by no way altered now. While it helps some agaisnt harrasing and prevent the muta player from baseracing i don't feel there is any difference. Other styles than mutas was still being used (while rarely) and I think they will see more prevalance regardless of the change to spore or not. In fact the game between goswser and revival in wcs featured roach hydra vs roach swarm host.
On the other hand the downside is that games take a lot longer than they should with the losing player dragging out the game forever. Just had a zvz where I killed of his mutas and contained him on 2 base and he just build mass spores so I can't kill him. had to wait another 10 min while im 6 base vs two to max out on ultras to kill him. Imo this is the only change the spore buff acomplished, preventing the winning player to end the game fast.
Also I never found muta vs muta a bad or boring matchup. I really enjoy it and find it a lot more fun then the roach wars in WoL and other styles will always be experienced upon even if one is very dominant.
You can do a roach expand or a 1-1 zergling expand of 2bases against someone who invest into a lair, a spire and mutas. This gives you a reasonable 3rd, which if you either use drop creep, creep spreading and the ability to move spores should be able to spore up. And from there on it is much easier with the new spores to defend this base and maybe not even go hydras or infestors immidiatly (like roach/spore/queen).
Of course this might not work out like that. But stuff like that will definatly be stronger now and maybe become viable.
I think the biggest problem of current muta wars right now is not that it is boring or coinflippy or something like that. (though I have never drawn too much fun from those games, neither in WoL, nor now) The biggest problem is that a player with a slight advantage in base and/or muta count just wins and the other player can't do anything about it. It's the raw comparison of mutalisk amounts that decides games and which is bad. (not to mention that we have like 10 units now... it would be quite a shame if 3 of them would be all that are viable)
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I would just say change the muta speed back to normal so they cant dodge storms soo easily ^^ and they cant move fast around sniping ur 4th workers to main workers -.-
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On May 14 2013 20:03 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 19:53 lue wrote:This really wont change my ZvZ at all. Guess I'll be stuck on 20% winratio in ZvT for another few balance patches aswell since apparently the game needs gasfree tier 3 splashdamage units that are nigh invincible. without muta's, drops are too strong. Then I wonder why zergs don't use spores and spines like at the end of wol. They seem to forget them these days. Spores together with 2-3 hydras and good overlord placement = bye drops. To answer this, the zerg army is already weaker than terrans/protoss, constantly having to surrender units to locate them in each of the bases as drop-defense(3 hydras per base, 4 bases~ thats 24 supply) is in the long run not viable at all, as for the static defense, well for a single hellbat drop, 2x hbs+ medivac, you'll need 2 spores to kill the medivac in a reasonable amount of time, and around 3 spines for the actual hellbats. This setup alone will cost you 450 minerals whereas the terran already invested less than that to even make the drop in the first place, namely 300 minerals + 100 gas. I don't even mind the medivac boost, but the hellbats are just dumb. So 1 hellbat per medivac would be the sollution?
No definitly not, the hellbat is still a "medium" unit and that is how it should stay, 2 should fit in the medivacs.
I would, personally, change it in a manner similiar to how banelings are produced.
Have the terran build hellions (thus increasing the initial amount of hellions made), then upon building an armory have the hellbats be converted from hellbats for an additional 25m 25g cost, or why not 0m 50g.
A flat 100m0g cost for a unit of that caliber is just plain wrong.
And to the mouthbreathers who seems to think zergs doesn't micro, try playing zerg properly.
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I think that hellbat should cost 150 minerals - 100 gas because it is such a good unit for being 100 minerals.
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Disapprove. The problem with ZvZ at the moment isn't the strength of static defences. In fact, Spore Crawlers were already quite strong against Mutalisks.
The problem is the fact that you have to counter Mutalisk play through turtling up and bascically ceding map control and presence to your opponent.
The answer obviously lies within the Corruptor, a unit that is seldom used in ZvZ due to its high cost, uselessness against ground units and mediocre speed. It should either be redesigned from the ground-up to better counter Mutalisks or be removed in favour of bringing back the Scourge.
Corruptors are also terrible in matchups like ZvT and ZvP where in the former they are now seldom used because Ultralisks have been greatly buffed and the most commoon TvZ style is bio + widow mines which can shred Brood Lords. In ZvP they are also very inconsistent at sniping Colossi and often a small micro blunder or not having enough of them can be the difference between winning or losing a game.
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So many silly opinions regarding a very good incremental change that should promote diversity in a mirror matchup. Balance changes really bring out the worst in TL (although of course there are many reasonable people posting here too).
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i like these changes imo, now i can go roach hydra investor again :D
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On May 14 2013 09:42 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 09:34 heyoka wrote:
I'm down for anything that increases the number of viable strategies so if it makes gameplay more diverse, then good job. Hehe until zvz turns into mass infestor/swarmhost/broodlord battles then you might think differently  .
That period was called beta *shrugs*.
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On May 14 2013 23:35 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 23:09 BaaL` wrote:On May 14 2013 23:03 vRadiatioNv wrote:On May 14 2013 22:59 Toadvine wrote:
Zergs complaining about drops being hard to deal with should try playing PvT to get a bit of perspective on the matter. As a Protoss player, I feel so jealous when I see a Terran drop the Zerg's main, and speedlings are there within 2-3 seconds despite being in the middle of the map as the medivac flew in. Mutas are just icing on this particular cake. I can say the same thing about Warpgates and Recall. All you zergs and protoss make me so jealous with your drop defense, all i can do is build 4-5 turrets in every base :D Obviously counter-dropping is the way to go. Real men don't need to defend.
SCV can just repair stuff until the army gets back, its way more manly that way.
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Great change, maybe it could be looked at differently though like a mid/late game queen upgrade to make them attack air units faster?
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I mean, I'm not sure this is the perfect solution to the problem but right now I'll take ANYTHING that might even slightly help the horror that is the ZvZ mu right now. I guess we will see if it helps! I'm definitely gonna give it a try!
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Hellbats costing gas to convert would be an interesting concept, whether or not it would be fair / work in practice would remain to be seen.
The only way the spore change works out is if...
It allows you to take an earlier 3rd and defend it from initial ling/muta pushes...and allows you to build up enough army to push out before the muta player has so many bases they can tech switch and be less cost effective but just throw so much stuff at you that you die eventually.
At the end of the day I don't see it working the way they think as roach/hydra infestor armies (especially with fungal being a hard to land projectile), simply lack the mobiility for you to ever hope to get off 3 bases. As spores once the muta player gets to 15+ will basically instantly melt to muta pressure.
I do see it doing what some have mentioned and allowing bad players to build many spores to draw a game out longer then it should be.
I think players were probably getting closer to solve Muta vs Muta zvz then this change will facilitate but will see soon enough.
The only thing that concerns me about their recent balance ideals is that there seems to be a heavier focus on is it fun to watch and not is it fun to play. They seem to be getting desperate in trying to catch riot which is a bad way to develop a game long term. To prove that statement, largely ZvT right now is the same compositions smashing against one another ever game. It's however far less boring to watch then ZvZ is. So they don't see ZvT as an issue where they do see ZvZ as an issue, hence a heavier focus on watch ability rather then true balance and in game fun.
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I must be the only wacko out there that actually thinks zvz is enjoyable to play and fun to watch. I enjoyed it in wol too, but I thought roaches were much more boring than ling muta.
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This will make no difference... just like the initial +15. Make it +1000000 and it will still not help make non-muta play viable.
Add SPLASH. A fuck ton of it. Then muta will not work. Oh yeah.. BUFF HYDRA!
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I wonder how the game would be affected if hydras' air attack had some splash damage on it. That could potentially solve the muta problem, and give some added help vs protoss air as well. I don't think it would break anything.
I'm in the minority of players, but I'd rather see frequent and significant changes to the game to try to balance it, even if something is changed back after two weeks. Or at least do it on an open beta. Why not try out a lot of things and find out what's good for the game and what isn't? It's more fun too if the game is always fresh. Of course, it isn't good for tournaments.
One other thing that seems like a potential balance problem to me- the Leenock style mass upgraded ling opening vs protoss. I've been winning ZvP very consistently lately, and it's so easy to use. I have complete map control, it's easy to deny the protoss his third base no matter what tech he opens with, and it's extremely safe. Even a really heavy zealot opening struggles with that huge amount of upgraded lings.
Then once P is finally ready to move out, I have full knowledge of his unit comp. Ultras will be good against most of them (heavy zealots, sentries, even colossus) or I can instead make a flock of mutas if there are too many immortals or voidrays, and basetrade with muta/ling. Maybe I'm facing bad protosses who aren't preparing well... not playing P much I don't know how hard it is to deal with the lings.
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On May 15 2013 02:11 Nerski wrote:
The only thing that concerns me about their recent balance ideals is that there seems to be a heavier focus on is it fun to watch and not is it fun to play. They seem to be getting desperate in trying to catch riot which is a bad way to develop a game long term. To prove that statement, largely ZvT right now is the same compositions smashing against one another ever game. It's however far less boring to watch then ZvZ is. So they don't see ZvT as an issue where they do see ZvZ as an issue, hence a heavier focus on watch ability rather then true balance and in game fun.
Quite frankly medivac boost is really fun watching at. And so is the viper. Also no problems with widow mines, okay swarm hosts are kinda boring unit from a viewer pov.
Also hellbats should cost 400/300, require fusion core and 2 medivacs to carry one hellbat...
And what is this obsession with gas cost? Sure make hellbats cost 75/25 just like roaches. That makes it better for you, right? Minus that it boosts them with bio (bio generally isn't exactly gas starved), and nerfs them with mech. But well, I guess that is solved by also increasing its mineral cost...
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On May 14 2013 09:31 heyoka wrote:From the Blizzard blog. Making a new thread to restart the discussion since the discussed balance change is now live, and to keep it to this and not the oracle changes or whatever. Show nested quote +Heart of the Swarm Balance Update – May 13, 2013![[image loading]](http://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/blog_header/OR2KZ0XB6KT11316122710184.jpg) A little over a week ago, we requested your help in testing a few proposed balance tweaks for StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm by playing with each change on our new Balance Test Map. After reviewing your thoughts, gathering pro player feedback, examining ladder stats, and watching lots of tournament matches, we're ready to move forward with a balance update. Today, we’ll be implementing the following balance change for StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm multiplayer: Zerg- Spore Crawler damage increased from 15 + 15 vs. biological to 15 + 30 vs. biological
If you'd like to read more on the reasoning behind this change, feel free to check out David Kim's recent forum post, in which he provided his team's thoughts on StarCraft II balance after reviewing test map results and feedback.
As always, thank you for play testing the changes we proposed with the most recent Balance Test Map. The extensive testing and quality of feedback you've provided have allowed us to make this call, and we look forward to sharing more of our thoughts on StarCraft II balance with you in the future. Poll: Final thoughts on the change?Approve (1355) 65% Neutral-prove (381) 18% Disapprove (334) 16% 2070 total votes Your vote: Final thoughts on the change? (Vote): Approve
(Vote): Disapprove
(Vote): Neutral-prove
Really dislike this patch... Now mutas isn't even a viable option as the other player will just spread creep and spam spores everywhere. Instead of forcing builds down our throats, maybe just have players explore other options... Hydra,roach,infestor,queen,ultra for late game works just fine, Especially with normal spores as they are. I don't even see muta viable anymore in zvz... Another bad nerf for zerg. Yes nerf because mutas are useless in zvz now..
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EPT
