EPTHeart of the Swarm Balance Update – May 13, 2013 - Page 14
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Humfluxx
Sweden47 Posts
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S1LVYR
Canada8 Posts
While i feel like this change won't do much for the muta-centric mid-late game, it will definitely make an opening for anti-muta timings. Generally the biggest problem with facing mutalisk play when not using mutalisks is the difficulty in taking expansions past your natural. This is still going to be the case with this change, but now that counter-attacks with mutas are an impossibility in the midgame, hydra all-ins will gain a lot of strength. It will be interesting to see how the metagame develops over the next week or two. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On May 15 2013 17:00 Big J wrote: so, any experiences yet? So far I have been having decent success with roach/spine/queen 3base defenses against mutas on this patch. (only few games) - it's more that I don't have a clue what to do afterwards (roach/hydra into swarm host?!?) As non-zerg, so maybe not viable, but: Roach-hydra push from 3-bases, while spores prevent him from doing a base-trade scenario? And I guess the roach-hydra's should win from muta's in a straight up fight, and ling/baneling shouldn't do too much against that either, unless he has very good baneling connections. Or nydus queens + swarmhosts + drones to somewhere near his third/natural (with enough support to keep muta's away until drones can make spores), setup a nice base there and kill his third. | ||
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
On May 15 2013 17:05 Humfluxx wrote: Just nerf the mutas! really! No, that is exactly what this community has been asking Blizzard for years not to do. | ||
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Nethune
United States22 Posts
On May 14 2013 09:37 GoodSirTets wrote: I don't think static defense was the answer people needed to muta's :p I would have liked to see some sort of hydra anti air buff or even a corrupter change, but I guess they don't want to touch the non mirror matchups That wouldn't work because then all air for all other races would also be affected. Thus defeating the point of a small patch. | ||
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TigerKarl
1757 Posts
On May 15 2013 21:57 Targe wrote: No, that is exactly what this community has been asking Blizzard for years not to do. Nobody asked Blizzard to imrpove the unit that dramatically from their good balance in WoL without reducing their strength as a very strong fighting unit. Blizzard is just closing their eyes towards what the real problem is: a fantastic harassing unit cannot be a fantastic fighting unit at the same time. That's just insanely bad game design. | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On May 15 2013 23:08 TigerKarl wrote: Nobody asked Blizzard to imrpove the unit that dramatically from their good balance in WoL without reducing their strength as a very strong fighting unit. Blizzard is just closing their eyes towards what the real problem is: a fantastic harassing unit cannot be a fantastic fighting unit at the same time. That's just insanely bad game design. There are still issues with nerfing it straight up, but something needs to be done to the muta. As I see it, mutas are balanced in ZvT vs bio, but are kind of stupid in all the other MUs(aswell as vs mech). Maybe not OP, as I see it in vP they are just a really good tech switch, since now storms don't really counter them that well anymore. ZvZ is ofc just in a really strange/silly state atm and vs mech the mecher can't really kill the mutas unless they are clumped and fly over 3 WMs. Tech switching into them now just seems so strong to me, since before they were on a timer and at a certain point you'd have counters out that would maybe not outright kill them, but dmg them enough that they were wasted supply for a while. Now it just piles on unless you are able to force them to *have to* take a bad fight that they can't retreat from. I like the idea of them as a harass unit, I like the reaper/muta regen as it gives the units some utility through the game and lets good players showcase their micro. It's just stupid to have a harass orientated unit as a straight up good combat unit. Compared to the hellbat drops, the medivac is the harass unit there, as I could've dropped any other unit for the harass, hellbats are just currently the most effective(and medivacs are a support unit, which I feel the mutas are vs bio, primarily sniping medivacs).. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 15 2013 23:28 Zarahtra wrote: There are still issues with nerfing it straight up, but something needs to be done to the muta. As I see it, mutas are balanced in ZvT vs bio, but are kind of stupid in all the other MUs(aswell as vs mech). Maybe not OP, as I see it in vP they are just a really good tech switch, since now storms don't really counter them that well anymore. ZvZ is ofc just in a really strange/silly state atm and vs mech the mecher can't really kill the mutas unless they are clumped and fly over 3 WMs. Tech switching into them now just seems so strong to me, since before they were on a timer and at a certain point you'd have counters out that would maybe not outright kill them, but dmg them enough that they were wasted supply for a while. Now it just piles on unless you are able to force them to *have to* take a bad fight that they can't retreat from. I like the idea of them as a harass unit, I like the reaper/muta regen as it gives the units some utility through the game and lets good players showcase their micro. It's just stupid to have a harass orientated unit as a straight up good combat unit. Compared to the hellbat drops, the medivac is the harass unit there, as I could've dropped any other unit for the harass, hellbats are just currently the most effective(and medivacs are a support unit, which I feel the mutas are vs bio, primarily sniping medivacs).. They lose to any antiair capable (non castet) unit in a cost for cost situation. I dont know how you guys can call that a good combat unit. Its in fact the worst AtG and the worst AtA unit in the game. | ||
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Graven
United States314 Posts
On May 15 2013 17:13 S1LVYR wrote: While personally I'm a huge fan of the current state of ZvZ, i understand that not everyone shares the same passion for the matchup. While i feel like this change won't do much for the muta-centric mid-late game, it will definitely make an opening for anti-muta timings. Generally the biggest problem with facing mutalisk play when not using mutalisks is the difficulty in taking expansions past your natural. This is still going to be the case with this change, but now that counter-attacks with mutas are an impossibility in the midgame, hydra all-ins will gain a lot of strength. It will be interesting to see how the metagame develops over the next week or two. Well, if Hydra all-ins become stronger, Roach all-ins are even more powerful. As is, Roaches can be used in the window before your opponent gains a critical mass of Mutas (just as +1 carapace lings can work then too). This change just means your opponent will need another batch of Muta's before he can go on the offensive, giving Ling-Roach-Hydra a leg to stand on. I'm not sure that this fixes the problem, but at the very least, it's going to lead to people exploring their options, which is a good thing. | ||
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habeck
1120 Posts
On May 15 2013 07:13 Slayer- wrote: not a fan, i'd of liked +1 muta armor -1 attack. but it is a careful balance. edit; i one base muta a lot, so this weakens such a cheese. edit 2: bring back scourge :D Nice... | ||
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Graven
United States314 Posts
On May 15 2013 23:28 Zarahtra wrote: There are still issues with nerfing it straight up, but something needs to be done to the muta. As I see it, mutas are balanced in ZvT vs bio, but are kind of stupid in all the other MUs(aswell as vs mech). Maybe not OP, as I see it in vP they are just a really good tech switch, since now storms don't really counter them that well anymore. ZvZ is ofc just in a really strange/silly state atm and vs mech the mecher can't really kill the mutas unless they are clumped and fly over 3 WMs. Tech switching into them now just seems so strong to me, since before they were on a timer and at a certain point you'd have counters out that would maybe not outright kill them, but dmg them enough that they were wasted supply for a while. Now it just piles on unless you are able to force them to *have to* take a bad fight that they can't retreat from. I like the idea of them as a harass unit, I like the reaper/muta regen as it gives the units some utility through the game and lets good players showcase their micro. It's just stupid to have a harass orientated unit as a straight up good combat unit. Compared to the hellbat drops, the medivac is the harass unit there, as I could've dropped any other unit for the harass, hellbats are just currently the most effective(and medivacs are a support unit, which I feel the mutas are vs bio, primarily sniping medivacs).. Muta's in ZvP are an "issue" in tech switching because the Protoss meta game is to ignore Zerg forever. If Protoss is content taking three bases and not preventing Zerg from taking five, Zerg is gonig to bank a ton and tech switch into 25 Muta's after the first battle. From the Zerg perspective, what is the alternative? On a map like Akilon Wastes, Protoss can easily turtle with three bases. Zerg can't break that, so they keep expanding. Then Protoss moves out with a deathball that no Zerg army can defeat...the only response is a ridiculous tech switch. A nerf to Muta's is just a support of the Protoss meta, which clearly Blizzard is not a fan of. Blizzard wants action early (i.e. Mothership Core) so they're not going to implement a change that rewards Protoss for working against that goal. | ||
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
I haven't watched a single game in HotS where I felt that it was decided by game balance. Mutalisks are strong but fair against T and P and now against non-Muta Z's, too. The occasional whining about Mothership Core or Medivacs is unwarranted and should be ignored. The game is perfect balance wise. | ||
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BlordSc2
Peru9 Posts
I really like the spore buff  . | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On May 15 2013 21:57 Targe wrote: I think he is more talking about the HOTS buffs mutas received that maybe should be looked at (WoL mutas were fine. They did need a little buff for HOTS to stay relevant, but it could easily be argued they went too far with what they did). As soon as they got buffed mutas caused issues in two different matchups (though most noticeably ZvZ.), but rather than take back that buff and try something else (it was beta after all) Blizzard has been instead trying to buff other things to compensate for this muta buff by doing all these silly other buffs like this spore crawler damage mumbo jumbo. They've always been like this, seemingly refusing to go back on patches and experimenting with other options when the buff/nerf they implemented is shown to be too much or too little.No, that is exactly what this community has been asking Blizzard for years not to do. What they are doing now trying to fix muta vs. muta ZvZ is the same thing they did when they tried to fix 4gate vs. 4gate PvP. Rather than go to the heart of the issue they try and fix it with a bunch of little patches before finally admitting defeat and dealing with the issue itself. There was actually a thread on this exact topic about a month ago or so. | ||
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zmsFlood
Finland169 Posts
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AwM
United States80 Posts
I just hope that it doesn't force a muta player to turtle himself until he has enough mutas/upgrades to one shot spines. | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On May 15 2013 17:05 Humfluxx wrote: Just nerf the mutas! really! That would effect TvZ as well which is already tipping to the terran atm. | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On May 16 2013 00:11 Ben... wrote: I think he is more talking about the HOTS buffs mutas received that maybe should be looked at (WoL mutas were fine. They did need a little buff for HOTS to stay relevant, but it could easily be argued they went too far with what they did). As soon as they got buffed mutas caused issues in two different matchups (though most noticeably ZvZ.), but rather than take back that buff and try something else (it was beta after all) Blizzard has been instead trying to buff other things to compensate for this muta buff by doing all these silly other buffs like this spore crawler damage mumbo jumbo. They've always been like this, seemingly refusing to go back on patches and experimenting with other options when the buff/nerf they implemented is shown to be too much or too little. What they are doing now trying to fix muta vs. muta ZvZ is the same thing they did when they tried to fix 4gate vs. 4gate PvP. Rather than go to the heart of the issue they try and fix it with a bunch of little patches before finally admitting defeat and dealing with the issue itself. There was actually a thread on this exact topic about a month ago or so. The HotS buffs were there to compensate for the medivac buff and widow mines. WoL mutas would be very bad against the current terran arsenal. Also, it is not so far the muta buff as it is the infestor nerf which makes ZvZ goes to muta muta since good luck catching muta's with a less hardhitting fungal if you can catch them at all. Zerg simply needed a new anti air unit in the expansion and since they didn't get it, this will be a mess till LoTV. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 16 2013 00:11 Ben... wrote: I think he is more talking about the HOTS buffs mutas received that maybe should be looked at (WoL mutas were fine. They did need a little buff for HOTS to stay relevant, but it could easily be argued they went too far with what they did). As soon as they got buffed mutas caused issues in two different matchups (though most noticeably ZvZ.), but rather than take back that buff and try something else (it was beta after all) Blizzard has been instead trying to buff other things to compensate for this muta buff by doing all these silly other buffs like this spore crawler damage mumbo jumbo. They've always been like this, seemingly refusing to go back on patches and experimenting with other options when the buff/nerf they implemented is shown to be too much or too little. What they are doing now trying to fix muta vs. muta ZvZ is the same thing they did when they tried to fix 4gate vs. 4gate PvP. Rather than go to the heart of the issue they try and fix it with a bunch of little patches before finally admitting defeat and dealing with the issue itself. There was actually a thread on this exact topic about a month ago or so. Afaik they dealt with 4gate vs 4gate pretty well with little adjustments in WoL (removing ramp warpins, small vision changes, small warpgate research nerf). Afaik they dealt with mass infestors pretty well in HotS, without removing the stun from fungal, which people said was "the issue". Also I'd like to know what "the issue" with mutalisks is in HotS. Regeneration is a big deal, so is the lack of a costefficient or equally mobile air counter for zerg as well as the weakness of bigass airsplash (fungal being the only one and quite weak these days). However, they solved one issue, which was costefficient defense and from my few games up to now, I haven't had too big of a problem holding a third against a mutalisk player. I'm not forced to tech hydralisks very fast now, can take my third off hatchtech with roach/queen/spore and be reasonable safe against any mutalisks and get a good economy before going mobile antiair, something I couldn't do as well before that patch. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On May 15 2013 23:50 Graven wrote: Muta's in ZvP are an "issue" in tech switching because the Protoss meta game is to ignore Zerg forever. If Protoss is content taking three bases and not preventing Zerg from taking five, Zerg is gonig to bank a ton and tech switch into 25 Muta's after the first battle. From the Zerg perspective, what is the alternative? On a map like Akilon Wastes, Protoss can easily turtle with three bases. Zerg can't break that, so they keep expanding. Then Protoss moves out with a deathball that no Zerg army can defeat...the only response is a ridiculous tech switch. A nerf to Muta's is just a support of the Protoss meta, which clearly Blizzard is not a fan of. Blizzard wants action early (i.e. Mothership Core) so they're not going to implement a change that rewards Protoss for working against that goal. Jesus, I can't even imagine how you can be wrong about literally everything in a single post. The issue with PvZ on maps like Akilon Wastes is that the Zerg can build up to a Swarm Host/Infestor/Viper/Corruptor army which is literally unengagable for a Protoss when coupled with "static" defense. In these games (Effort vs Trap today in Code A, for example), the Protoss often expands more aggressively and has an econ advantage in the lategame, but still can't touch the SH ball, which is why they resort to mass Zealot warpins and other shenanigans. The fact that the Zerg can bank 5k/5k, trade armies, and then instantly remax on Mutas is just icing on this particular cake. Seriously, can we just get over this "Zerg can't touch the Protoss deathball wah wah wah" nonsense? Even Roach/Hydra/Viper does quite well against normal deathballs, and the likes of double upgraded Ultra/Ling with Queens and Infestors rolls over them even with inferior econ. Then there are the Swarm Hosts... | ||
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