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FOREIGN735
Germany11 Posts
those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off. Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill) Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player) for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote: in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity. those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off. Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill) What you are describing is exactly how terran players felt for most of WOL, having to micro their ass off against any kind of AOE while their opponents had it much easier. Only the very best (Korean) terrans could accomplish anything with the race. Mines and hellbats exist to equalize things for terran, no longer are they the only one easily punished for their mistakes. It's 100% intentional by design. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7028 Posts
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote: in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity. those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off. Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill) Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player) for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay They're perfectly balanced. No, you cannot win by mindlessly a-moving (as easily) anymore. Yes, it's probably a shocking experience for you. | ||
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Chocobo
United States1108 Posts
On May 14 2013 20:50 Bagi wrote: What you are describing is exactly how terran players felt for most of WOL, having to micro their ass off against any kind of AOE while their opponents had it much easier. And it wasn't a good thing then either. I'm in favor of balancing the game, not giving each race equal time of being too strong. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On May 14 2013 21:02 Chocobo wrote: And it wasn't a good thing then either. I'm in favor of balancing the game, not giving each race equal time of being too strong. Exactly, so now it is added for every race that you have to micro or get screwed. Granted toss probably less now than T and Z, but still it is closer now. It isn't like that WOL behavior was removed, it was that Terrans (grudgingly) adapted. One of those adaptations for example was a favor for all-ins, since then you simply kill your opponent before he has those AOE units. If you don't want that micro requirement, fine, then you can nerf the widow mine, but at the same time you also will have to nerf toss and zerg AOE. | ||
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FOREIGN735
Germany11 Posts
They're perfectly balanced. No, you cannot win by mindlessly a-moving (as easily) anymore. Yes, it's probably a shocking experience for you.[/QUOTE] there is a difference between mindlessly a moving and working your ass off! the main problem with mines is: that as a zerg you have to suicide units=you lose ressources no matter what you do the best trade possible vs a mine is: 25 minerals vs 75minerals 25gas which is 1/4 of the total ressources of a mine in case a terran have mines + army you simply wont be able to trade that good -in case you send not enough lings they wont even trigger the mines=terran loses nothing! -in case you send too much=you will lose everything vs mines | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote: in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity. those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off. Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill) Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player) for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay
And that's how you defend vs. WM or hellbat drop at the most basic levels. | ||
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Chocobo
United States1108 Posts
On May 14 2013 21:00 DemigodcelpH wrote: They're perfectly balanced. No, you cannot win by mindlessly a-moving (as easily) anymore. Yes, it's probably a shocking experience for you. Does every game balance discussion have to have 10% of the posts consist of variations of "LOL you can't win with no skill anymore, L2P"? What is the purpose of saying this? What does this add to the discussion? On May 14 2013 21:09 Sissors wrote: Exactly, so now it is added for every race that you have to micro or get screwed. Granted toss probably less now than T and Z, but still it is closer now. There's something that a surprising number of posters on TL don't seem to understand - there is a huuuuuuuge difference between "this strat requires micro to deal with" and "this strat requires extremely quick and precise mistake-free micro to the point where only the top 1-2% of players are capable of it". The first situation leads to good gameplay. Splitting marines vs banes, feedbacks on ghosts or vipers, and so on. The second (bio mine vs zerg) leads to good gameplay for those top players with excellent micro, and frustration and imbalance for most zergs in diamond and masters league. Even though the gameplay is great for the pros, there's a problem in the game for the pro-wannabes. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On May 14 2013 21:02 Chocobo wrote: And it wasn't a good thing then either. I'm in favor of balancing the game, not giving each race equal time of being too strong. According to Blizzard the winrates are looking good right now. It's not like the AOE of other races ceased to exist once widow mines were introduced, marines are as fragile as they ever were. The difference is that terrans have microed (or at least tried to) every part of their army for the last 2-3 years, where as zergs are only now starting to learn. | ||
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FOREIGN735
Germany11 Posts
On May 14 2013 21:16 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
And that's how you defend vs. WM or hellbat drop at the most basic levels. my main point isnt that I don't know what to do vs WM the point is that the best trade possible for zerg vs mines is 1/4 of the ressources that mines cost the ZvsT matchup just dont feel fair anymore..i think many players would agree with me (even progamer) and all Blizzard is doing is to fix the spore because of ZvsZ? guys ZvZ TvT and PvP are balanced..no matter what blizzard is going to chance! | ||
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Chocobo
United States1108 Posts
On May 14 2013 21:19 Bagi wrote: According to Blizzard the winrates are looking good right now. It's not like the AOE of other races ceased to exist once widow mines were introduced, marines are as fragile as they ever were. Maybe this is true. I would be very interested in seeing the TvZ winrate for various skill levels (diamond league, low masters, mid masters) for games where mines were heavily used. If it is near 50% I'd love to see some replays to discover how diamond and lower masters players are dealing with bio mine effectively (I'd hope it's not a roach allin every game). The difference is that terrans have microed (or at least tried to) every part of their army for the last 2-3 years, where as zergs are only now starting to learn. Oh please. | ||
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xdDagg
Finland6 Posts
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On May 14 2013 21:21 FOREIGN735 wrote: + Show Spoiler + On May 14 2013 21:16 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
And that's how you defend vs. WM or hellbat drop at the most basic levels. my main point isnt that I don't know what to do vs WM the point is that the best trade possible for zerg vs mines is 1/4 of the ressources that mines cost the ZvsT matchup just dont feel fair anymore..i think many players would agree with me (even progamer) and all Blizzard is doing is to fix the spore because of ZvsZ? guys ZvZ TvT and PvP are balanced..no matter what blizzard is going to chance! That's like saying it's unfair for DTs to destroy my army that has no detection! If you've been following the strategy forum you know that infestors can clear up mines with ALL of their abilities:
And this is in addition to triggers by ling run-in, overseer's unshifted changeling. I'm sorry but if the Zerg have one unit that can deal with widow mines with nothing but mp, you have nothing to complain about. Some honest opinions, learn-to-play or get a refund and stick with WoL. | ||
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xdDagg
Finland6 Posts
On May 14 2013 20:44 FOREIGN735 wrote: in case mines and hellbats aren't OP i lose my faith in humanity. those units require almost 0 skill to be used while on the other side you have to struggle ur ass off. Another problem is to actually trade cost effective vs those units-->its almost impossible for (very low master/dia skill) Don't get me wrong this game is still fun, but it would be more fun if it actually feels fair vs the terran race (specialy as a zerg player) for me it pretty much feels like T>Z and the patch wont have any recognisable effect on the gameplay Banelinging an entire army is pretty cost effective and requires as much as a-move. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On May 14 2013 21:21 FOREIGN735 wrote: + Show Spoiler + On May 14 2013 21:16 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
And that's how you defend vs. WM or hellbat drop at the most basic levels. my main point isnt that I don't know what to do vs WM the point is that the best trade possible for zerg vs mines is 1/4 of the ressources that mines cost So best case scenario is being 4 times more cost effective than your opponent? What's the problem there? If it was 3/4th of cost effectiveness of your opponent, okay, but that isn't it according to you. Not to mention that you don't have to suicide a ling to kill it: You can tank them with ovis, outrange them with hydras, just kill them before they fire with roaches, fungal them, preferably before they burrow, set them off with one of your free units, let ultras tank them, etc. Of course you can't kill every widow mine without losing anything, I also cannot kill the zerg army without losing anything. And yeah at non-pro level your micro won't be as good against widow mine, his widow mine usage also won't be as good. "But you only have to burrow them and they kill everything!!1!!!!1". When you run into a zerg army with banelings rolling towards you, you really got alot of micro to do in a very small time period, burrying widow mines isn't as trivial as it sounds. Next, once burrowed it is true the widow mines don't have to be micro'd much anymore. However your bio still has to be micro'd, not only against the banelings, but also against the mines! You see pro's often enough getting hammered by their own widow mines, that won't happen less to casual players. And when the zerg survives and gets to late game he is in a very good position with the improved ultras, and widow mines much less useful. | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
On May 14 2013 21:34 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: That's like saying it's unfair for DTs to destroy my army that has no detection! If you've been following the strategy forum you know that infestors can clear up mines with ALL of their abilities:
And this is in addition to triggers by ling run-in, overseer's unshifted changeling. I'm sorry but if the Zerg have one unit that can deal with widow mines with nothing but mp, you have nothing to complain about. Some honest opinions, learn-to-play or get a refund and stick with WoL. A few Zergs in this thread are going through A-Move Withdraw Syndrome, and quite frankly there's no reason to explain things like this to them as it's already been explained many times in these very pages. Let them keep whining while the Zerg population, distribution-wise, continues to dominate to upper ladder leagues. | ||
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Nimix
France1809 Posts
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FOREIGN735
Germany11 Posts
On May 14 2013 21:34 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: That's like saying it's unfair for DTs to destroy my army that has no detection! If you've been following the strategy forum you know that infestors can clear up mines with ALL of their abilities:
And this is in addition to triggers by ling run-in, overseer's unshifted changeling. I'm sorry but if the Zerg have one unit that can deal with widow mines with nothing but mp, you have nothing to complain about. Some honest opinions, learn-to-play or get a refund and stick with WoL. you get mines faster than infestors! mines are cheaper! mines have cloak without tech! mines require almost no APM! and also The Terran gameplay is micro heavy-->just call mules and u ll be fine!! while as a zerg you have to inject+creepspread otherwise you are f***ked vs a good terran. please stop this L2P issue..its just stupid - i am just saying its way too hard to deal with mines, while on the other side they require almost 0 skill to be used. the best 1% of all sc2 is maybe able to trade good vs mines - but i think on this level its not the balance it is the PLAYER SKILL that decides who wins. | ||
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TheMooseHeed
United Kingdom535 Posts
On May 14 2013 21:34 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: That's like saying it's unfair for DTs to destroy my army that has no detection! If you've been following the strategy forum you know that infestors can clear up mines with ALL of their abilities:
And this is in addition to triggers by ling run-in, overseer's unshifted changeling. I'm sorry but if the Zerg have one unit that can deal with widow mines with nothing but mp, you have nothing to complain about. Some honest opinions, learn-to-play or get a refund and stick with WoL. I agree with the first 2 infestor uses but please dont offer neural as a an effective counter to widow mines | ||
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