On May 12 2013 11:31 yeeshdontjudgeme wrote: People should be held accountable more for how the play rather than what they say. The more I see these comments, the more this community disappoints. I'm starting to realize that the "few" may be the majority. Fine. While you guys pansy over what a player said or who his friends are, I'm going to be analyzing his gameplay. True sports and e-sports fans wouldn't care about drama. They'd just care about good games. If people stopped caring about drama, then stupid shit like this wouldn't have to happen. This community has truly gone to shit.
I don't think the community is that good either, but for different reasons. There was a large enough portion of this community that let a character such as idra gain as much fame and popularity as he did because they enjoy seeing bm and rage. I don't think any mature person can be a fan of such behaviour. People may think they're mature, but they're not if they're into that sort of things.
I don't mind trash talking cause I watch sports and that's all in good fun, but Idra's antic always went beyond that mostly. There's a reason the gaming scene in general isn't looked favourably by the general public and it's because there's an immaturity stigma attached to it. I can't really argue that isn't really the case either. Idra may insult these people, but he fails to realize these same people gave him the popularity and fame he got in the first place. If all these people leave, which I agree with him there, then he wouldn't have been as popular as he was in the first place, which is something he fails to recognize.
On May 12 2013 13:31 Spectreman wrote: In the end we going to live like the movie Demolition Man if people keep making drama about every little thing.
Isn't that the movie where people fuck without every actually touching each other using some sort of computer thingy cause that would be AWESOME.
On a serious note, I agree with you. People create so much crap out of everything. If SC2 keeps going the way it has been going we will have no characters, no contrary opinions, and nothing different and it will stagnate and die as an e-sport. The game for me is just as much the story and characters as it is the action. You can have the best production and special effects ever (I'm looking at you Transformers) but if your story is shit and you have weak characters, nobody will give a fuck. I am not an Idra fan. However, I have huge respect for the guy, for what he's done and for the fact that he is who he is and doesn't give a fuck what random posters on the internet think of him. Even if our principles are different, I respect that he "walks his talk" so to speak. He is aware of what type of person he is, is 100% honest and wears his emotions (at least anger) openly.
There needs to be room for people to be different. There needs to be bad guys (Idra, Destiny) and there needs to be good guys (White-Ra) in order for ALL different types of people to get enjoyment out of it. Soccer doesn't have millions of fans only because the sport itself is a high level. They have fans of all different kinds who are attracted to all sorts of different things. My wife likes watching StarCraft because "Protoss are shiny." My son watches StarCraft because he likes to spend extra time with his dad and feel knowledgeable when Mom asks ",who is winning." And my best friend watches StarCraft because he likes the drama and rivalries and "Shit Talk." I think the SC2 and RTS community in general is very elitist. It's a cultish, must behave certain way, play certain way, like certain thing mentality. We only accept X type of fan. If you like drama, diva-like behavior, or raw emotions of all kinds GTFO.
Idra for me represents that type of guy who fills a valuable niche in the community. Maybe the majority of his fans or anti-fans or whatever you want to call them don't belong in forums and certainly not Twitch.tv chat but they are still fans of the game and still are contributing to the growth of SC2 and in a broader sense e-sports.
Yes, I know that Idra said he hates these anti-fans. Just because I respect him doesn't mean I have to agree with this specific sentiment. What I disagree with is how this community tries to remove anything, players, casters, and even fans because they are different or have controversial opinions, likes, interests, or idols. Somehow this sort of thing is almost applauded as "growth" or the betterment of the community. Removing interest in something even if its not the same thing about it that you are interested in will fucking kill the thing you claim to be interested in.
Even in that interview with JP, which was a chance to pull a lot of people back on-side he still managed to make himself look a bit of an ass.
He did? With what, I wonder.
A few things hidden amongst it. He tried to defend, or at least to some extent justify his Capoch comment by saying 'he's cheesy and I get mad'... as if that in any way would justify a cancer comment. I know he also said his comment was wrong, but he just needed to leave it at that. There was no need to try and explain and justify, just say 'yeah, I was wrong'. He also tried to insinuate his 'rivalry' with demuslim was a 2 way thing, when it's Idra constantly calling demuslim childish names. There were a few other thigns I picked up on when I watched it. Then he sais the 'fucks' he was aiming his comment at are people who love to watch him rage and BM... well guess what, don't rage and BM and these people have no ammunition!? He just behaves like a petulant child way too often. He needs to grow up, his behavious, attitude and outlook have no excuses anymore.
I think you're the last person anyone should turn to for advice about growing up and not being a petulant child.
On May 12 2013 13:56 philip697 wrote: What is it specifically about him you like/support? Genuine question.
Well im not even that big of a fan but this is why i like him
-he was one of the first foreigners to travel to Korea to play BW. He went there for a genuine love of the game, waay before there was any money in it for him. -he's very intelligent and a one of the best analytic commentators -funny personality, speaks his mind etc. -was the best foreigner in BW and was the best foreigner in sc2 for a while
Even in that interview with JP, which was a chance to pull a lot of people back on-side he still managed to make himself look a bit of an ass.
He did? With what, I wonder.
A few things hidden amongst it. He tried to defend, or at least to some extent justify his Capoch comment by saying 'he's cheesy and I get mad'... as if that in any way would justify a cancer comment. I know he also said his comment was wrong, but he just needed to leave it at that. There was no need to try and explain and justify, just say 'yeah, I was wrong'. He also tried to insinuate his 'rivalry' with demuslim was a 2 way thing, when it's Idra constantly calling demuslim childish names. There were a few other thigns I picked up on when I watched it. Then he sais the 'fucks' he was aiming his comment at are people who love to watch him rage and BM... well guess what, don't rage and BM and these people have no ammunition!? He just behaves like a petulant child way too often. He needs to grow up, his behavious, attitude and outlook have no excuses anymore.
I think you're the last person anyone should turn to for advice about growing up and not being a petulant child.
On May 12 2013 13:56 philip697 wrote: What is it specifically about him you like/support? Genuine question.
Well im not even that big of a fan but this is why i like him
-he was one of the first foreigners to travel to Korea to play BW. He went there for a genuine love of the game, waay before there was any money in it for him. -he's very intelligent and a one of the best analytic commentators -funny personality, speaks his mind etc. -was the best foreigner in BW and was the best foreigner in sc2 for a while
He's undoubtedly intelligent, which makes his outbursts and nasty comments even harder to fathom. I don't think he's funny at all though, he's just rude and nasty. We don't need to be championing people like that in any walk of life, especially not a person who's meant to be a role model. He's finally realized you can't go around saying whatever you want and not get punished for it.
IdrA said that he's going to quit the competition because he doesn't particularly like the game, and that's fine, but he's planning to take more of a casting role, and streaming his games with more commentary and whatnot. How does that work out? Why not cut all ties with a game he doesn't like? Money probably, but it's not really a good long-term vision at all.
On May 12 2013 13:56 philip697 wrote: What is it specifically about him you like/support? Genuine question.
Well im not even that big of a fan but this is why i like him
-he was one of the first foreigners to travel to Korea to play BW. He went there for a genuine love of the game, waay before there was any money in it for him. -he's very intelligent and a one of the best analytic commentators -funny personality, speaks his mind etc. -was the best foreigner in BW and was the best foreigner in sc2 for a while
He's undoubtedly intelligent, which makes his outbursts and nasty comments even harder to fathom. I don't think he's funny at all though, he's just rude and nasty. We don't need to be championing people like that in any walk of life, especially not a person who's meant to be a role model. He's finally realized you can't go around saying whatever you want and not get punished for it.
I don't understand the whole role model thing. I watch these people to see them do something they are better at than anyone else, not to turn them into idols that are practically worshiped.
Yes, I know that Idra said he hates these anti-fans. Just because I respect him doesn't mean I have to agree with this specific sentiment. What I disagree with is how this community tries to remove anything, players, casters, and even fans because they are different or have controversial opinions, likes, interests, or idols. Somehow this sort of thing is almost applauded as "growth" or the betterment of the community. Removing interest in something even if its not the same thing about it that you are interested in will fucking kill the thing you claim to be interested in.
But is that really what happened in this case? There's a difference between talking shit in a game, having a controversial/provocative opinion, and just acting like an dumbass.
What I think the biggest problem with IdrA's statement was— that I can see EG.Alex taking serious issue with — was that it simply wasn't true. It not just that it was 'controversial.' From a team owner perspective, it's wrong, and not what EG believes.
No, the community is not all 'fucks'. No, it's its not unfair for 'anti-fans' to be critical of IdrA after a bad performance — there's a difference between being a loyal, salivating fan-boy and an avid, educated and opinionated follower of the game. And NO — EG does NOT pay it's players to treat fans like shit.
I see that last sentiment as basically being indefensible for any employee to have. Even if IdrA meant it as a joke, it's a dumbass thing to say.
I agree, there should be a diversity of opinions and values in the community. There's even room for some stupidity now and again. But there's a reason why certain SC2 personalities are on the C-list where they belong — they're more famous for being 'controversial' than actually playing well or creating great content for a wider audience.
On May 12 2013 13:56 philip697 wrote: What is it specifically about him you like/support? Genuine question.
Well im not even that big of a fan but this is why i like him
-he was one of the first foreigners to travel to Korea to play BW. He went there for a genuine love of the game, waay before there was any money in it for him. -he's very intelligent and a one of the best analytic commentators -funny personality, speaks his mind etc. -was the best foreigner in BW and was the best foreigner in sc2 for a while
He's undoubtedly intelligent, which makes his outbursts and nasty comments even harder to fathom. I don't think he's funny at all though, he's just rude and nasty. We don't need to be championing people like that in any walk of life, especially not a person who's meant to be a role model. He's finally realized you can't go around saying whatever you want and not get punished for it.
I don't understand the whole role model thing. I watch these people to see them do something they are better at than anyone else, not to turn them into idols that are practically worshiped.
It's just like any other sport in that sense. Someone who is in a position of being looked up to, or at least watched by an audience in a spectacle or event sense, becomes a role model, and as such probably needs to not going around saying he hopes people get cancer... know what I mean?
Yes, I know that Idra said he hates these anti-fans. Just because I respect him doesn't mean I have to agree with this specific sentiment. What I disagree with is how this community tries to remove anything, players, casters, and even fans because they are different or have controversial opinions, likes, interests, or idols. Somehow this sort of thing is almost applauded as "growth" or the betterment of the community. Removing interest in something even if its not the same thing about it that you are interested in will fucking kill the thing you claim to be interested in.
But is that really what happened in this case? There's a difference between talking shit in a game, having a controversial/provocative opinion, and just acting like an dumbass.
What I think the biggest problem with IdrA's statement was— that I can see EG.Alex taking serious issue with — was that it simply wasn't true. It not just that it was 'controversial.' From a team owner perspective, it's wrong, and not what EG believes.
No, the community is not all 'fucks'. No, it's its not unfair for 'anti-fans' to be critical of IdrA after a bad performance — there's a difference between being a loyal, salivating fan-boy and an avid, educated and opinionated follower of the game. And NO — EG does NOT pay it's players to treat fans like shit.
I see that last sentiment as basically being indefensible for any employee to have. Even if IdrA meant it as a joke, it's a dumbass thing to say.
I agree, there should be a diversity of opinions and values in the community. There's even room for some stupidity now and again. But there's a reason why certain SC2 personalities are on the C-list where they belong — they're more famous for being 'controversial' than actually playing well or creating great content for a wider audience.
1) Was it the right decision to release Idra? & 2) Whether the sc2 scene should have people like Idra in it.
First with 1, I really don't see how EG could have done anything else. This isn't a case of someone making a one off comment. Idra has been doing this for years now, and EG has been very understanding in trying to help Idra along. And I have to disagree with Incontrol about Greg getting snapped up by sponsors. Clearly, EG's management felt that keeping Idra on is more of a liability in terms of attention for their sponsors. There is no doubt that Idra gets your products etc attention, but the question is whether you are getting the right sort of attention. Idra's BM and nasty comments could have been glossed over if he was placing well in tournements and all, but he has been slumping for quite some time now.
And I think it's also important to see the difference between BMing an opponent (which can be excused as being part of the game), and going out there to insult fans etc. After all, fans and viewers are the ones that sponsors are counting on to buy products, and it is reasonable to expect that when you say FUCK YOU to viewers and fans they are going to be far less inclined to buy your stuff.
Further, let's not forget that Idra himself has been brooding on how much he hates the game and all. So as management, you have a player that insults the fan base, isn't placing well in tournments, and has commented on how much he dislikes the game. You've given him his chances, and nothing seems to be changing. I think there was only really one option for EG, and they released him.
On to 2), I think that whether you want a personality like Idra really depends on your personal vision for E-sports. And so there are going to be quite a bit of divergent views. Some prefer something that is a lot closer to WWE style wrestling, which is more drama than actual... you know, sport. Others (including myself) would like to see Esports developing towards something similar to the tennis scene. I think that there's a lot of similarities between the mental aspect of tennis and sc2, and I think that tennis has a good balance of personality without the need for excessive BM and name calling.
I would like to comment on the Demolition Man references though. That's just hyperbole. We can have compelling sports storylines without people hurling vulgarities all over the place. I mean do you turn in to the Olympics to see people BM each other, or do you turn in to watch people overcome their limitations, and achieve a goal through perserence and hard work? While it is true that people like Idra brings a streak of drama into the scene, let's not pretend that the absence of Idra means that SC2's competitive scence suddenly becomes super boring.
I was never much of an Idra fan but I like his position in the community. He's articulate and intelligent yet he makes these strange bad moves and doesn't learn from them. After losing to hallucination, or leaving after mma had destroyed his own cc, you would think that he would of learned that in tournaments you don't gg early. I'm not taking about fantasy/mkp gg timing here, just like attack and when its clear your army is dead and you can't remax, you can leave. I know you really don't think you could win and truly I understand where the game was at, but people have lost from a big advantage. Some players become famous for their amazing comebacks and impossible holds. It doesn't happen often but you never know. Only good things can come out of not immediately leaving a game if it seems like you won't be winning. Are you just desensitized because you are playing hundreds of meaningless ladder games every week?
Anyway, it doesn't matter cause now he quit. I think this will be very positive for the community, as he will be providing more content and less drama. Also he'll be happier.
On May 12 2013 14:30 levelping wrote: There really are 2 issues here:
1) Was it the right decision to release Idra? & 2) Whether the sc2 scene should have people like Idra in it.
First with 1, I really don't see how EG could have done anything else. This isn't a case of someone making a one off comment. Idra has been doing this for years now, and EG has been very understanding in trying to help Idra along. And I have to disagree with Incontrol about Greg getting snapped up by sponsors. Clearly, EG's management felt that keeping Idra on is more of a liability in terms of attention for their sponsors. There is no doubt that Idra gets your products etc attention, but the question is whether you are getting the right sort of attention. Idra's BM and nasty comments could have been glossed over if he was placing well in tournements and all, but he has been slumping for quite some time now.
And I think it's also important to see the difference between BMing an opponent (which can be excused as being part of the game), and going out there to insult fans etc. After all, fans and viewers are the ones that sponsors are counting on to buy products, and it is reasonable to expect that when you say FUCK YOU to viewers and fans they are going to be far less inclined to buy your stuff.
Further, let's not forget that Idra himself has been brooding on how much he hates the game and all. So as management, you have a player that insults the fan base, isn't placing well in tournments, and has commented on how much he dislikes the game. You've given him his chances, and nothing seems to be changing. I think there was only really one option for EG, and they released him.
On to 2), I think that whether you want a personality like Idra really depends on your personal vision for E-sports. And so there are going to be quite a bit of divergent views. Some prefer something that is a lot closer to WWE style wrestling, which is more drama than actual... you know, sport. Others (including myself) would like to see Esports developing towards something similar to the tennis scene. I think that there's a lot of similarities between the mental aspect of tennis and sc2, and I think that tennis has a good balance of personality without the need for excessive BM and name calling.
I would like to comment on the Demolition Man references though. That's just hyperbole. We can have compelling sports storylines without people hurling vulgarities all over the place. I mean do you turn in to the Olympics to see people BM each other, or do you turn in to watch people overcome their limitations, and achieve a goal through perserence and hard work? While it is true that people like Idra brings a streak of drama into the scene, let's not pretend that the absence of Idra means that SC2's competitive scence suddenly becomes super boring.
1.) I agree with you. As a business I don't think EG had much of a choice and as a business owner myself, I would have fired him as well. My post above was mostly to address issue 2.
2.) This was what all of my post above was about. I personally think that you can have the WWE style shit talking drama and the skill from pro tennis and appeal to all kinds of players. I picture is more like the NBA. The skill level is very high and a lot of people watch it for that. At the same time, people have all sorts of drama as well if they are more interested in that with plenty of Fuck You's and profanity in interviews, outside drama whatever.
I watch the Olympics because I bet on them with friends, it's actually pretty boring usually. But unimportant sidenote.
And no I don't think that Idra leaving the scene makes SC2 boring for ME and people who like you, watch the Olympics to see people overcome their limitations, and achieve a goal through perseverance. But for a lot of people who watch it hoping there is some new bit of juicy gossip they can post on Reddit it just might be far more boring. He has a HUGE fan base and a HUGE anti-fan base and I'm sure a few of them only watch because of him. Even a small loss is still a loss.
EPT
