On May 12 2013 11:31 yeeshdontjudgeme wrote: People should be held accountable more for how the play rather than what they say. The more I see these comments, the more this community disappoints. I'm starting to realize that the "few" may be the majority. Fine. While you guys pansy over what a player said or who his friends are, I'm going to be analyzing his gameplay. True sports and e-sports fans wouldn't care about drama. They'd just care about good games. If people stopped caring about drama, then stupid shit like this wouldn't have to happen. This community has truly gone to shit.
Lol, ironic that you are shitting on the community for 'judging' Idra while you judge the WHOLE community. And you think you know who the 'true' sports and e-sports fans are. You realize that athlete's from other sports are also accountable for how they act, right?
On May 12 2013 14:30 levelping wrote: There really are 2 issues here:
1) Was it the right decision to release Idra? & 2) Whether the sc2 scene should have people like Idra in it.
First with 1, I really don't see how EG could have done anything else. This isn't a case of someone making a one off comment. Idra has been doing this for years now, and EG has been very understanding in trying to help Idra along. And I have to disagree with Incontrol about Greg getting snapped up by sponsors. Clearly, EG's management felt that keeping Idra on is more of a liability in terms of attention for their sponsors. There is no doubt that Idra gets your products etc attention, but the question is whether you are getting the right sort of attention. Idra's BM and nasty comments could have been glossed over if he was placing well in tournements and all, but he has been slumping for quite some time now.
And I think it's also important to see the difference between BMing an opponent (which can be excused as being part of the game), and going out there to insult fans etc. After all, fans and viewers are the ones that sponsors are counting on to buy products, and it is reasonable to expect that when you say FUCK YOU to viewers and fans they are going to be far less inclined to buy your stuff.
Further, let's not forget that Idra himself has been brooding on how much he hates the game and all. So as management, you have a player that insults the fan base, isn't placing well in tournments, and has commented on how much he dislikes the game. You've given him his chances, and nothing seems to be changing. I think there was only really one option for EG, and they released him.
On to 2), I think that whether you want a personality like Idra really depends on your personal vision for E-sports. And so there are going to be quite a bit of divergent views. Some prefer something that is a lot closer to WWE style wrestling, which is more drama than actual... you know, sport. Others (including myself) would like to see Esports developing towards something similar to the tennis scene. I think that there's a lot of similarities between the mental aspect of tennis and sc2, and I think that tennis has a good balance of personality without the need for excessive BM and name calling.
I would like to comment on the Demolition Man references though. That's just hyperbole. We can have compelling sports storylines without people hurling vulgarities all over the place. I mean do you turn in to the Olympics to see people BM each other, or do you turn in to watch people overcome their limitations, and achieve a goal through perserence and hard work? While it is true that people like Idra brings a streak of drama into the scene, let's not pretend that the absence of Idra means that SC2's competitive scence suddenly becomes super boring.
1.) I agree with you. As a business I don't think EG had much of a choice and as a business owner myself, I would have fired him as well. My post above was mostly to address issue 2.
2.) This was what all of my post above was about. I personally think that you can have the WWE style shit talking drama and the skill from pro tennis and appeal to all kinds of players. I picture is more like the NBA. The skill level is very high and a lot of people watch it for that. At the same time, people have all sorts of drama as well if they are more interested in that with plenty of Fuck You's and profanity in interviews, outside drama whatever.
I watch the Olympics because I bet on them with friends, it's actually pretty boring usually. But unimportant sidenote.
And no I don't think that Idra leaving the scene makes SC2 boring for ME and people who like you, watch the Olympics to see people overcome their limitations, and achieve a goal through perseverance. But for a lot of people who watch it hoping there is some new bit of juicy gossip they can post on Reddit it just might be far more boring. He has a HUGE fan base and a HUGE anti-fan base and I'm sure a few of them only watch because of him. Even a small loss is still a loss.
I don't watch the NBA, but I guess football would be similar. Football has had its infamous children like Eric Cantona and his kungfu kick. But at the same time it manages to be largely profession. One thing that the NBA and football does have though are central bodies which can discipline the condut of players etc. That said, I personally still feel that football gets a bit too rowdy and the off pitch antics of players just becomes unnecessarily distracting. It is also a team sport, so I am willing to accept a bit more drama in the dynamics of the teams etc, as opposed to when it's just one person making a lot of noise.
I conciously chose tennis because it is a (largely) 1v1 sport, and there's a cerebal as well as physical intensity about it. Plus all the major players are very well mannered, and still, watching tennis is still beautiful. I just don't think the off-court/pitch antics add that much to the sport. But of course I think we will disagree on this.
As to your second point, I think you might be overstating the case for Idra's fan base. While it is true there are a lot of people that watch and follow him, I don't think that anyone is going to stop watching just because he is gone. If that were the case, we would have seen a significant downward trend in viewership in the past few years simply since Idra hasn't been that prominent in a long while.
2.) This was what all of my post above was about. I personally think that you can have the WWE style shit talking drama and the skill from pro tennis and appeal to all kinds of players. I picture is more like the NBA. The skill level is very high and a lot of people watch it for that. At the same time, people have all sorts of drama as well if they are more interested in that with plenty of Fuck You's and profanity in interviews, outside drama whatever.
It seemed like two years ago IdrA was more than willing to play the heel in any SC2 tournament. But it sounds like being the bad guy that people loved to hate AND losing all the time wore him down.
Even the bad guys in WWE get to hold the Championship Belt once in a while. I think if IdrA did better in competition last year he would still be willing to play professionally (even though he hates the game).
On May 12 2013 11:09 Joedaddy wrote: Just some of the highlights/interesting things (imo) from the interview for anyone interested: The Highlights:
1. Idra will not be continuing as a competitive player. This decision was made before* his release from EG. 2. Idra doesn't really want anyone sodomized with a tire iron or get cancer. 3. Idra has never been fined more than $500. for anything he has ever said/done. 4. Idra apologizes to his personal fans and all the fans of e-sports. He does not think we are all a bunch of [expletive]. 5. He stands by the decision to leave the game vs Polt on Daybreak. "Terran air is better than Zerg." 6. Idra believes the amount of money EG was paying him was a "bad business decision" for EG. "It was a very lucrative contract, and I don't think I was worth that much." 7. "Demuslim and I don't particularly like each other" 8. Idra will be focusing on casting and community content in the future. 9. EG has offered to pay Idra's rent for the duration of his current lease. 10. EG was pressured by sponsors to release Idra. 11."Mechanically, LoL is very casual, but I did underestimate the complexity of it. I play it (LoL) and I do enjoy it. If the community wants it, I will stream myself playing LoL." 12. Idra will NOT be leaving E-Sports.
Thanks for the summary. Will be a good choice for him, I think. I won't go as far as some and call him the best player caster, but his casting was certainly unique, and somewhat interesting. Maybe a more casual approach to playing will also make him happier, but I know shit all about him obviously, so w/e
2.) This was what all of my post above was about. I personally think that you can have the WWE style shit talking drama and the skill from pro tennis and appeal to all kinds of players. I picture is more like the NBA. The skill level is very high and a lot of people watch it for that. At the same time, people have all sorts of drama as well if they are more interested in that with plenty of Fuck You's and profanity in interviews, outside drama whatever.
It seemed like two years ago IdrA was more than willing to play the heel in any SC2 tournament. But it sounds like being the bad guy that people loved to hate AND losing all the time wore him down.
Even the bad guys in WWE get to hold the Championship Belt once in a while. I think if IdrA did better in competition last year he would still be willing to play professionally (even though he hates the game).
So stoked he'll be focusing on casting. Much better caster than player and certainly a personal favorite. Analytical, precise, stoic....love listening to the man speak.
Good to hear you won't be leaving us. And performing in a superior capacity to boot!
On May 12 2013 15:22 Canucklehead wrote: I think the most shocking thing is we saw idra retire before stephano! Who saw that one coming?!
Based on their performances? I think a lot of people. Stephano was always cavalier -- officially anyway -- about the game but there was never a period when he wasnt winning a lot. The only real change has come from him being the undisputed number 1 foreigner to just being really good. Idra makes it clear, no matter how he phrased it, that he enjoyed winning and once he stopped that he no longer enjoyed it. He isnt the only guy who after a period of winlessness decided to hang em up, look at haypro or nony or jinro. These guys reach a wall and thats it.
Even in that interview with JP, which was a chance to pull a lot of people back on-side he still managed to make himself look a bit of an ass.
He did? With what, I wonder.
A few things hidden amongst it. He tried to defend, or at least to some extent justify his Capoch comment by saying 'he's cheesy and I get mad'... as if that in any way would justify a cancer comment. I know he also said his comment was wrong, but he just needed to leave it at that. There was no need to try and explain and justify, just say 'yeah, I was wrong'. He also tried to insinuate his 'rivalry' with demuslim was a 2 way thing, when it's Idra constantly calling demuslim childish names. There were a few other thigns I picked up on when I watched it. Then he sais the 'fucks' he was aiming his comment at are people who love to watch him rage and BM... well guess what, don't rage and BM and these people have no ammunition!? He just behaves like a petulant child way too often. He needs to grow up, his behavious, attitude and outlook have no excuses anymore.
I think you're the last person anyone should turn to for advice about growing up and not being a petulant child.
Clarify.
I don't think I need to point how petty, ignorant and petulant your entire post was. I mean, why even call someone else an ass if you're going to write something like that?
On May 12 2013 14:30 levelping wrote: There really are 2 issues here:
1) Was it the right decision to release Idra? & 2) Whether the sc2 scene should have people like Idra in it.
First with 1, I really don't see how EG could have done anything else. This isn't a case of someone making a one off comment. Idra has been doing this for years now, and EG has been very understanding in trying to help Idra along. And I have to disagree with Incontrol about Greg getting snapped up by sponsors. Clearly, EG's management felt that keeping Idra on is more of a liability in terms of attention for their sponsors. There is no doubt that Idra gets your products etc attention, but the question is whether you are getting the right sort of attention. Idra's BM and nasty comments could have been glossed over if he was placing well in tournements and all, but he has been slumping for quite some time now.
And I think it's also important to see the difference between BMing an opponent (which can be excused as being part of the game), and going out there to insult fans etc. After all, fans and viewers are the ones that sponsors are counting on to buy products, and it is reasonable to expect that when you say FUCK YOU to viewers and fans they are going to be far less inclined to buy your stuff.
Further, let's not forget that Idra himself has been brooding on how much he hates the game and all. So as management, you have a player that insults the fan base, isn't placing well in tournments, and has commented on how much he dislikes the game. You've given him his chances, and nothing seems to be changing. I think there was only really one option for EG, and they released him.
On to 2), I think that whether you want a personality like Idra really depends on your personal vision for E-sports. And so there are going to be quite a bit of divergent views. Some prefer something that is a lot closer to WWE style wrestling, which is more drama than actual... you know, sport. Others (including myself) would like to see Esports developing towards something similar to the tennis scene. I think that there's a lot of similarities between the mental aspect of tennis and sc2, and I think that tennis has a good balance of personality without the need for excessive BM and name calling.
I would like to comment on the Demolition Man references though. That's just hyperbole. We can have compelling sports storylines without people hurling vulgarities all over the place. I mean do you turn in to the Olympics to see people BM each other, or do you turn in to watch people overcome their limitations, and achieve a goal through perserence and hard work? While it is true that people like Idra brings a streak of drama into the scene, let's not pretend that the absence of Idra means that SC2's competitive scence suddenly becomes super boring.
1.) I agree with you. As a business I don't think EG had much of a choice and as a business owner myself, I would have fired him as well. My post above was mostly to address issue 2.
2.) This was what all of my post above was about. I personally think that you can have the WWE style shit talking drama and the skill from pro tennis and appeal to all kinds of players. I picture is more like the NBA. The skill level is very high and a lot of people watch it for that. At the same time, people have all sorts of drama as well if they are more interested in that with plenty of Fuck You's and profanity in interviews, outside drama whatever.
I watch the Olympics because I bet on them with friends, it's actually pretty boring usually. But unimportant sidenote.
And no I don't think that Idra leaving the scene makes SC2 boring for ME and people who like you, watch the Olympics to see people overcome their limitations, and achieve a goal through perseverance. But for a lot of people who watch it hoping there is some new bit of juicy gossip they can post on Reddit it just might be far more boring. He has a HUGE fan base and a HUGE anti-fan base and I'm sure a few of them only watch because of him. Even a small loss is still a loss.
I don't watch the NBA, but I guess football would be similar. Football has had its infamous children like Eric Cantona and his kungfu kick. But at the same time it manages to be largely profession. One thing that the NBA and football does have though are central bodies which can discipline the condut of players etc. That said, I personally still feel that football gets a bit too rowdy and the off pitch antics of players just becomes unnecessarily distracting. It is also a team sport, so I am willing to accept a bit more drama in the dynamics of the teams etc, as opposed to when it's just one person making a lot of noise.
I conciously chose tennis because it is a (largely) 1v1 sport, and there's a cerebal as well as physical intensity about it. Plus all the major players are very well mannered, and still, watching tennis is still beautiful. I just don't think the off-court/pitch antics add that much to the sport. But of course I think we will disagree on this.
As to your second point, I think you might be overstating the case for Idra's fan base. While it is true there are a lot of people that watch and follow him, I don't think that anyone is going to stop watching just because he is gone. If that were the case, we would have seen a significant downward trend in viewership in the past few years simply since Idra hasn't been that prominent in a long while.
I'm sorry but you're kinda wrong. Tennis players aren't really very mannered. You try to say that they are "very well mannered" but they are moderately mannered, and usually bad mouth and/or act disrespectfully during matches. Racquets being thrown and good shots from opponents not being recognized is a very VERY common thing in professional, and all levels of tennis. This is very similar to SC2. At the end of a tennis match, you shake hands and leave, even if you feel bitter as fuck. At the end of a SC2 match you say GG and exit the game.
I don't really know why you think tennis players are very mannered....
I'm talking as someone who played in pro tournaments, and met/played with a variety of pros (not the "major players" you mentioned, but pros none the less).
Btw, EG shouldn't be forced to kick IdrA off the team in these sorts of situations. SC2 needs to catch up with regular sports, and leagues need to punish EG for IdrA's bad actions. After such negative issues, and after contracts expire, then EG should be able to decide whether or not they want to keep him.
Just kicking him off the team is a pretty silly/petty move that can't really be respected.
If something big happens and the community is outraged, there are steps you can take, such as not allowing IdrA to compete in tournaments, or removing IdrA from the team house temporarily, or some things of that nature. These penalties need to also be stated in the contract, that those are things EG can do as disciplinary actions. Then either reduce his pay or don't renew his contract after it has expired.
Anyways, I have no clue if he was still under contract when he was "released" or what the terms of the contracts were, but all I'm saying is that legit contracts need to exist, and moves like this (releasing IdrA immediately after a bad mannered post) need to become extinct.
On May 12 2013 15:37 Shinta) wrote: I'm sorry but you're kinda wrong. Tennis players aren't really very mannered. You try to say that they are "very well mannered" but they are moderately mannered, and usually bad mouth and/or act disrespectfully during matches. Racquets being thrown and good shots from opponents not being recognized is a very VERY common thing in professional, and all levels of tennis. This is very similar to SC2. At the end of a tennis match, you shake hands and leave, even if you feel bitter as fuck. At the end of a SC2 match you say GG and exit the game.
I don't really know why you think tennis players are very mannered....
I'm talking as someone who played in pro tournaments, and met/played with a variety of pros (not the "major players" you mentioned, but pros none the less).
Yeah, rather hilarious that he says Tennis players are mannered when the #1's for both men and women are BM as fuck.
Logged into Idra's stream last night for the first time, wanted to see if he is as rude as everyone says, Did I get a surprise, he was friendly, he did gl hf, said thank you and sorry. Said a player was actually good (which he played against), if he focused and he had an adorable cat in a cone Must say was a shock, and to top it all of, he's commentary while playing is very good. Maybe this being dropped from EG has calmed he down or something.
On May 12 2013 15:37 Shinta) wrote: I'm sorry but you're kinda wrong. Tennis players aren't really very mannered. You try to say that they are "very well mannered" but they are moderately mannered, and usually bad mouth and/or act disrespectfully during matches. Racquets being thrown and good shots from opponents not being recognized is a very VERY common thing in professional, and all levels of tennis. This is very similar to SC2. At the end of a tennis match, you shake hands and leave, even if you feel bitter as fuck. At the end of a SC2 match you say GG and exit the game.
I don't really know why you think tennis players are very mannered....
I'm talking as someone who played in pro tournaments, and met/played with a variety of pros (not the "major players" you mentioned, but pros none the less).
Yeah, rather hilarious that he says Tennis players are mannered when the #1's for both men and women are BM as fuck.
But they're #1, they're valuable in that sense. IdrA was not :p
On May 12 2013 16:02 Marchinko wrote: Logged into Idra's stream last night for the first time, wanted to see if he is as rude as everyone says, Did I get a surprise, he was friendly, he did gl hf, said thank you and sorry. Said a player was actually good (which he played against), if he focused and he had an adorable cat in a cone Must say was a shock, and to top it all of, he's commentary while playing is very good. Maybe this being dropped from EG has calmed he down or something.
Yes being dropped definitely calmed him down. Thank god. Hopefully this change is a long term effect.
If you want sc2 to be mainstream, you can not afford to have such person as Idra beeing an active player at tournaments. It would be so nice to go to a pub and talk to friends about football (european) and sc2. But this will never happen. SC2 is not mature enough and will never be respected by the wide spectrum of people outside of esports. Image your kid likes SC2 and is following the live broadcast on TV where Idra (or any other BM Player) plays against X. Idra loses and wishes Player X cancer, or other likely bad-examples.. Prototypical do not do this. If i would see Idra was acting like this live, also saying things like "fuck" etc all of the time, i would never allow my kid to watch SC2. Kids are easy to manipulate and think his behavour is "cool" and the right thing. No, its not.
Then Idra is always blaming others or something else but not himself when he loses. And you Idra-Fan-Boys wonder why he is not respected and poeple dont like him? He is not beeing honest at all. I realy dont like Players, even in the team i like at other sports, when they blame anyone and everything else when they lose. It shows weak character, and no respect to the Team / Person that won. And i am not alone with that attitude. In your most hurting lose, it shows your real character, and you gain respect if you treat your opponent like he realy deserves it. He was better, you admit it. Its okay to lose, but its a shame to blame it on others and some thing else.
Idra leaving games early shows another weakness. It is realy disturbing for me to watch a game with him. If you do not believe in your yourself and your skill, fine, but please, show respect to your fans and the fans of your opponents and battle till the end. Imagine you watch a football team and 2 minutes before the game ends they dont want to play anylonger because they think hey have no chance and stop playing. Unimaginary. Its the great thing if you do the impossible... Look at the games in the past where (european analogies) Manchester made 2 goals within minutes against Bayern Munich in the finals... Where Dortmund made 2 goals within seconds, otherwise they would not have been in the finals now. There are many examples where you do the impossible. And that are the moments where the people will love your team or you as a sportsman, not-fans of you or your team will respect you and think positive about you, and you gain more fans. Not the "uhhh. blizzard sucks at balancing... " .. "Buh terran air is better than zerg air... uhhhh..."..... Do you think a team like Dortmund should not play the game against Munich now in the finals because Munichs team is more "worth" and the game is not balanced? Because Dortmund has no chance? Ofcourse Dortmund will do everthing they can do to win, and if they do, then the underdog kicked the giant munich. And dortmund will gain even more respect and fans.
This beeing said, its okay if Idra would leave the scene. Its better for a pro-scene in the future. And if the fans will go with him, thats even better. I think me and others here want real sportsmen, and sport in the focus and not the BM and Drama-shit. If you want that, maybe WWE is more for you. Ofcourse there can be Players at SC2 with a certain personality, but, if they extend or overjump this border, please release / fire them. They are not needed at this Sport and hurt the future of it. If you want SC2 more mainstream, respected and loved by more people each day, you can not act like Idra did for such a long time.
EPT
I think if IdrA did better in competition last year he would still be willing to play professionally (even though he hates the game).
