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On May 07 2013 06:21 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2013 06:16 SCST wrote:On May 07 2013 06:11 Plansix wrote:On May 07 2013 06:06 Dracid wrote:On May 07 2013 05:57 SCST wrote:On May 07 2013 05:49 Dracid wrote:On May 07 2013 05:33 SCST wrote:On May 07 2013 05:29 Plansix wrote:On May 07 2013 05:14 Acrofales wrote:On May 07 2013 03:16 SCST wrote:
[quote]
Korea and China are extremely close geographically. It's the equivalent of saying that "Canadian's living in Vancouver can't compete at a Seattle tournament (United States) because it's just too difficult for them due to offline requirements, so they must compete in a Korean tournament which is partially online". Again you don't understand how close in proximity the two countries are. It is possible to take a ferry boat from Beijing to mainland South Korea. Flights are also cheap. Relative to the cost of coming to the America's it is extremely cheap .
Cost of flight to the America's from mainland china is roughly $1,400 - $1,800 for 2 one-way tickets if you're lucky. This doesn't include the incredible hassle of getting a U.S. visa ($200) which may be denied for any reason under the sun. Yes, it is easier to compete in the offline Korean WCS than to come to the United States once/if they are in premier league.
Once again, Chinese are not being pigeonholed into playing America WCS. They are simply taking advantage of a loophole in the WCS system that was originally intended to be a region-lock but failed. I'm not criticizing Chinese players for doing this, but I am criticizing forum-posters for pretending like they were "forced" into this choice.
I really really REALLY hope you're a troll. 1. Beijing or Shanghai (the two largest cities that can arguably be said to be "near" to Seoul are still ~1000 km away. So actually it's asking someone from Vancouver to fly to anywhere ranging from San Francisco (~1000 km away) to Miami (~ the distance for people in southern China) for a tournament.2. The "tremendous hassle for a US visa" is about the same as the "tremendous hassle for a SK visa". It's not as if SK hands visas out to chinese for christmas. 3. You have to move to SK just to compete in the Code A qualifiers. WCS AM and EU are all-online until Premier league Ro8, which is a weekend, meaning you can live at home and fly out to the states for a weekend, IF you are extremely successful. SK you basically have to move there if you want a chance at even competing. You live in your own little fantasy lalaland if you think moving to a different country is in any way easier (let alone cheaper) than traveling to the US for a week(end). My real question is, after the Chinese player takes the reported "ferry" from China to Korea, how does he get to Seoul. Does he walk like a pilgrim, with his mouse, keyboard and B.Net authenticator on his back, for the remained of his 1000 K trip? Does he show up to the GOM studio like some vagabond, reciting builds under his breath and playing SC2 in his mind? The more I think about it, the more like the concept of this fictional Chinese SC2 player traveling to Seoul by foot. Seems clear that this was taken out of context. It is, relative to other areas of the world like the Americas, very reasonable to travel from China to SK and live in a team-house for several months to compete in GSL. Unless you think as one poster mentioned, $300 plane ticket vs ~$1,600 is similar in cost. Or as an even cheaper option, taking the ferry and train and staying for a while to compete. Except for that $1600 plane ticket you're already in the Ro16 which is a guaranteed $2000 plus a good chance to make much more, whereas that $300 plane ticket guarantees that if you win you get to be in code A and have to pay for living expenses in a foreign country for several weeks. The ferry isn't a viable option either. It costs over $100 USD for a one-way 26 hour trip which neither starts in Beijing nor ends in Seoul. I agree that it's a much better financial opportunity to play in WCS America rather than Korea, I have never stated otherwise. I have stated however that is not "unreasonable" to play on KR, and that it is a conscious choice to play in WCS America vs KR and not forced. And people take the ferry all the time from Beijing to Seoul, I've done it myself. It not as difficult as you make it sound, though it is a long trip. I also am a world traveler. So explain how it's reasonable to expect somebody to live in a foreign country for an extended amount of time in order to compete for a tournament. Also, there is no ferry from Beijing to Seoul. Beijing isn't even on the coast. You've taken a ferry that doesn't even exist, I don't think it's worth responding to you anymore. Must resist urge to make Photoshop movie poster of mythical ferry boat from Beijing to Seoul, carrying world travelers and Chinese SC2 players off to adventure in the land of Korea. A feel good story for the summer, brought you by Dreamworks. Ferry information Beijing - Seoul (yes there is a short train ride from the ports) Air-conditioned high-speed trains link Beijing and Tianjin frequently, taking just 30 minutes, see details here. However, the port is actually at Tanggu, some 50 km east of Tianjin itself, so it's better to take a direct train from Beijing South to Tanggu, journey time 55 minutes, with trains every hour or two. Beijing to Tanggu costs 92 RMB soft seat, 78 RMB hard seat. You can check train times at www.chinatravelguide.com. Bus 102 runs from Tanggu station to the ferry terminal, journey time 50 minutes. Ferries run by Jinchon Ferry sail from Tanggu International Ferry Terminal (50 km east of Tianjin) to Incheon twice a week, taking 25 hours. Departure from Tanggu is at 11:00 on Thursdays & Sundays, arriving Incheon at 14:00 next day. In the other direction, the ferry sails from Incheon at 13:00 on Tuesdays arriving Tanggu 14:00 Wednesdays and at 19:00 on Fridays arriving Tanggu 20:00 Saturdays. For sailing dates and times, see http://byferryfrom2japan.com/en/korea-china or http://visitkorea.or.kr/ena/GK/GK_EN_2_3_2.jsp. The ferry operator's own site (www.jinchon.cn) is only in Chinese or Korean. The ferry fare in economy class is 888 RMB + 60 RMB tax. You should arrive at the ferry terminal 2-3 hours before sailing time. Trains link Incheon and Seoul frequently, 39 km, journey time 58 minutes. It is really hard to tell if you are the world traveler to claim to be, or someone who is utilizing the power of google and just layering on more detailed information as the discussion goes on. Either way, the discussion is about semantics. People say Chinese are forced to compete in the WSC US because they have so few options. You say it is the best decision for them, but they are not forced because they could live in Korea, even though you freely admit it is not the best decision for them. Everyone agrees on the points, but disagrees on the verbiage.
No idea why you are attacking/attempting to discredit me personally rather than just addressing the points in a discussion . . .
Yes of course I don't have the ferry information memorized, I've only taken it once. I'ts much easier to google this well-known ferry and just copy/paste? I am a U.S. citizen living in Mexico at the moment. I've done quite a bit of travel, but that has almost nothing to do with the discussion . . .
I don't think everyone agrees with these points, probably most people arguing here are in agreement, but I've read countless statements since the beginning of WCS regarding the Chinese being forced (yes, they mean forced not *best opportunity*) into this situation and "woe" to them for having such a horrible/difficult time.
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On May 07 2013 06:16 SCST wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2013 06:11 Plansix wrote:On May 07 2013 06:06 Dracid wrote:On May 07 2013 05:57 SCST wrote:On May 07 2013 05:49 Dracid wrote:On May 07 2013 05:33 SCST wrote:On May 07 2013 05:29 Plansix wrote:On May 07 2013 05:14 Acrofales wrote:On May 07 2013 03:16 SCST wrote:On May 07 2013 02:54 Rostam wrote:
[quote]
Great point. I'm sure their choice has nothing to do with the fact that WCS KR is completely offline and would require them to live in a different country for a long period of time to take part. Korea and China are basically the same place, right? Korea and China are extremely close geographically. It's the equivalent of saying that "Canadian's living in Vancouver can't compete at a Seattle tournament (United States) because it's just too difficult for them due to offline requirements, so they must compete in a Korean tournament which is partially online". Again you don't understand how close in proximity the two countries are. It is possible to take a ferry boat from Beijing to mainland South Korea. Flights are also cheap. Relative to the cost of coming to the America's it is extremely cheap . Cost of flight to the America's from mainland china is roughly $1,400 - $1,800 for 2 one-way tickets if you're lucky. This doesn't include the incredible hassle of getting a U.S. visa ($200) which may be denied for any reason under the sun. Yes, it is easier to compete in the offline Korean WCS than to come to the United States once/if they are in premier league. Once again, Chinese are not being pigeonholed into playing America WCS. They are simply taking advantage of a loophole in the WCS system that was originally intended to be a region-lock but failed. I'm not criticizing Chinese players for doing this, but I am criticizing forum-posters for pretending like they were "forced" into this choice. I really really REALLY hope you're a troll. 1. Beijing or Shanghai (the two largest cities that can arguably be said to be "near" to Seoul are still ~1000 km away. So actually it's asking someone from Vancouver to fly to anywhere ranging from San Francisco (~1000 km away) to Miami (~ the distance for people in southern China) for a tournament.2. The "tremendous hassle for a US visa" is about the same as the "tremendous hassle for a SK visa". It's not as if SK hands visas out to chinese for christmas. 3. You have to move to SK just to compete in the Code A qualifiers. WCS AM and EU are all-online until Premier league Ro8, which is a weekend, meaning you can live at home and fly out to the states for a weekend, IF you are extremely successful. SK you basically have to move there if you want a chance at even competing. You live in your own little fantasy lalaland if you think moving to a different country is in any way easier (let alone cheaper) than traveling to the US for a week(end). My real question is, after the Chinese player takes the reported "ferry" from China to Korea, how does he get to Seoul. Does he walk like a pilgrim, with his mouse, keyboard and B.Net authenticator on his back, for the remained of his 1000 K trip? Does he show up to the GOM studio like some vagabond, reciting builds under his breath and playing SC2 in his mind? The more I think about it, the more like the concept of this fictional Chinese SC2 player traveling to Seoul by foot. Seems clear that this was taken out of context. It is, relative to other areas of the world like the Americas, very reasonable to travel from China to SK and live in a team-house for several months to compete in GSL. Unless you think as one poster mentioned, $300 plane ticket vs ~$1,600 is similar in cost. Or as an even cheaper option, taking the ferry and train and staying for a while to compete. Except for that $1600 plane ticket you're already in the Ro16 which is a guaranteed $2000 plus a good chance to make much more, whereas that $300 plane ticket guarantees that if you win you get to be in code A and have to pay for living expenses in a foreign country for several weeks. The ferry isn't a viable option either. It costs over $100 USD for a one-way 26 hour trip which neither starts in Beijing nor ends in Seoul. I agree that it's a much better financial opportunity to play in WCS America rather than Korea, I have never stated otherwise. I have stated however that is not "unreasonable" to play on KR, and that it is a conscious choice to play in WCS America vs KR and not forced. And people take the ferry all the time from Beijing to Seoul, I've done it myself. It not as difficult as you make it sound, though it is a long trip. I also am a world traveler. So explain how it's reasonable to expect somebody to live in a foreign country for an extended amount of time in order to compete for a tournament. Also, there is no ferry from Beijing to Seoul. Beijing isn't even on the coast. You've taken a ferry that doesn't even exist, I don't think it's worth responding to you anymore. Must resist urge to make Photoshop movie poster of mythical ferry boat from Beijing to Seoul, carrying world travelers and Chinese SC2 players off to adventure in the land of Korea. A feel good story for the summer, brought you by Dreamworks. Ferry information Beijing - Seoul (yes there is a short train ride from the ports) Air-conditioned high-speed trains link Beijing and Tianjin frequently, taking just 30 minutes, see details here. However, the port is actually at Tanggu, some 50 km east of Tianjin itself, so it's better to take a direct train from Beijing South to Tanggu, journey time 55 minutes, with trains every hour or two. Beijing to Tanggu costs 92 RMB soft seat, 78 RMB hard seat. You can check train times at www.chinatravelguide.com. Bus 102 runs from Tanggu station to the ferry terminal, journey time 50 minutes. Ferries run by Jinchon Ferry sail from Tanggu International Ferry Terminal (50 km east of Tianjin) to Incheon twice a week, taking 25 hours. Departure from Tanggu is at 11:00 on Thursdays & Sundays, arriving Incheon at 14:00 next day. In the other direction, the ferry sails from Incheon at 13:00 on Tuesdays arriving Tanggu 14:00 Wednesdays and at 19:00 on Fridays arriving Tanggu 20:00 Saturdays. For sailing dates and times, see http://byferryfrom2japan.com/en/korea-china or http://visitkorea.or.kr/ena/GK/GK_EN_2_3_2.jsp. The ferry operator's own site (www.jinchon.cn) is only in Chinese or Korean. The ferry fare in economy class is 888 RMB + 60 RMB tax. You should arrive at the ferry terminal 2-3 hours before sailing time. Trains link Incheon and Seoul frequently, 39 km, journey time 58 minutes.
See, Tianjin =/= Beijing, and Incheon =/= Seoul. Aside from that, The fare comes out to 78 + 888 + 60 + Incheon -> Seoul travel costs, which is roughly 50RMB if you travel by bus for a total of 1076 RMB one-way trip from Beijing to Seoul, which is just shy of $175 USD. If you've ever actually taken the trip, how could you 1. get the cities wrong, and 2. not realize that this one-way trip would be half as expensive as a round-trip plane ticket from Beijing to Seoul. Taking the ferry means you're spending just about as money as a plane, only it'll take about 30 hours more on top of having to deal with hassle from transfers.
This only covers Beijing of course, Shanghai is even further away.
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On May 07 2013 06:18 SCST wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2013 06:15 Acrofales wrote:On May 07 2013 06:07 SCST wrote:On May 07 2013 05:55 Plansix wrote:On May 07 2013 05:50 SCST wrote:On May 07 2013 05:43 Waxangel wrote:
you're fucking insane if you think having to compete in Korea in person is not a huuuuuuuuuuuge barrier against chinese participation
fuck, if MLG said you had to play WCS America live in NYC from the qualifiers on up, all USA players west of Pennsylvania would be screaming bloody murder, not to mention everyone else in the fucking hemisphere. I agree it's a big barrier. However, is it truly unreasonable to have a CN team-house in South Korea? Or for CN players to live in team-houses in South Korea? People are stating that it is "impossible" or "so difficult to be nearly impossible" for CN players to play in any WCS other than America. This is obviously not true. Again, if I were a CN player I also would choose to better/more lucrative opportunity. No one is blaming the Chinese. All right, this argument has become fluid and amorphous, ever shifting until it can never be proven wrong or fail under the weight of facts and logic. Its sole purpose is to argue for the sake of doing so, while never yielding to the weight its opponents heap on it. I suggest we all move along and leave the argument blob to itself. No, it boils down to a simple argument. 1. Is it reasonable for CN players to play in WCS KR vs WCS America? No.
2. If it is reasonable for CN players to play in KR WCS, why are people whining about the Chinese having lag, etc and overall trying to make them out as victims when they have a choice as to which WCS to play in.
Irrelevant due to 1. End of discussion. I disagree with you, hence the argument. I think it's definitely worse, but not unreasonable for CN players to play in a team-house in the GSL. Either way, I've enjoyed discussing it.
Nor is it "unreasonable" to ask it of anybody else. But given that AM is by far the MOST reasonable option, I think it is great that some of them made it through the qualifiers (which is what you responded to in the first place, ranting and railing about ferries). Especially given the drama with MLG and the Premier league qualifiers.
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On May 07 2013 06:18 SCST wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2013 06:15 Acrofales wrote:On May 07 2013 06:07 SCST wrote:On May 07 2013 05:55 Plansix wrote:On May 07 2013 05:50 SCST wrote:On May 07 2013 05:43 Waxangel wrote:
you're fucking insane if you think having to compete in Korea in person is not a huuuuuuuuuuuge barrier against chinese participation
fuck, if MLG said you had to play WCS America live in NYC from the qualifiers on up, all USA players west of Pennsylvania would be screaming bloody murder, not to mention everyone else in the fucking hemisphere. I agree it's a big barrier. However, is it truly unreasonable to have a CN team-house in South Korea? Or for CN players to live in team-houses in South Korea? People are stating that it is "impossible" or "so difficult to be nearly impossible" for CN players to play in any WCS other than America. This is obviously not true. Again, if I were a CN player I also would choose to better/more lucrative opportunity. No one is blaming the Chinese. All right, this argument has become fluid and amorphous, ever shifting until it can never be proven wrong or fail under the weight of facts and logic. Its sole purpose is to argue for the sake of doing so, while never yielding to the weight its opponents heap on it. I suggest we all move along and leave the argument blob to itself. No, it boils down to a simple argument. 1. Is it reasonable for CN players to play in WCS KR vs WCS America? No.
2. If it is reasonable for CN players to play in KR WCS, why are people whining about the Chinese having lag, etc and overall trying to make them out as victims when they have a choice as to which WCS to play in.
Irrelevant due to 1. End of discussion. I disagree with you, hence the argument. I think it's definitely worse, but not unreasonable for CN players to play in a team-house in the GSL. Either way, I've enjoyed discussing it.
You need to understand what people are saying here. Of course it's possible for CN players to go to KR, live there, and try their luck in the GSL, but given that it is extremely costly in comparison to playing in AM, you might as well use the term "forced" to play in AM. Change it for "the offer in AM is ridiculously superior to the one in KR, making the latter completely out of the question", it's the same thing.
I mean, sure, I can avoid the nasty subway and buses in my city by sleeping 3 hours at night, waking up at 2 AM and walking to my hospital work in the middle of the night, I'd probably make it on time, but that's pretty unreasonable right? Hence, in order to function correctly, I'm "forced" to use the nasty public transport system, even if in truly objective terms, I actually COULD go walking.
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On May 07 2013 06:25 SCST wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2013 06:21 Plansix wrote:On May 07 2013 06:16 SCST wrote:On May 07 2013 06:11 Plansix wrote:On May 07 2013 06:06 Dracid wrote:On May 07 2013 05:57 SCST wrote:On May 07 2013 05:49 Dracid wrote:On May 07 2013 05:33 SCST wrote:On May 07 2013 05:29 Plansix wrote:On May 07 2013 05:14 Acrofales wrote:
[quote]
I really really REALLY hope you're a troll.
1. Beijing or Shanghai (the two largest cities that can arguably be said to be "near" to Seoul are still ~1000 km away. So actually it's asking someone from Vancouver to fly to anywhere ranging from San Francisco (~1000 km away) to Miami (~ the distance for people in southern China) for a tournament.
2. The "tremendous hassle for a US visa" is about the same as the "tremendous hassle for a SK visa". It's not as if SK hands visas out to chinese for christmas.
3. You have to move to SK just to compete in the Code A qualifiers. WCS AM and EU are all-online until Premier league Ro8, which is a weekend, meaning you can live at home and fly out to the states for a weekend, IF you are extremely successful. SK you basically have to move there if you want a chance at even competing. You live in your own little fantasy lalaland if you think moving to a different country is in any way easier (let alone cheaper) than traveling to the US for a week(end). My real question is, after the Chinese player takes the reported "ferry" from China to Korea, how does he get to Seoul. Does he walk like a pilgrim, with his mouse, keyboard and B.Net authenticator on his back, for the remained of his 1000 K trip? Does he show up to the GOM studio like some vagabond, reciting builds under his breath and playing SC2 in his mind? The more I think about it, the more like the concept of this fictional Chinese SC2 player traveling to Seoul by foot. Seems clear that this was taken out of context. It is, relative to other areas of the world like the Americas, very reasonable to travel from China to SK and live in a team-house for several months to compete in GSL. Unless you think as one poster mentioned, $300 plane ticket vs ~$1,600 is similar in cost. Or as an even cheaper option, taking the ferry and train and staying for a while to compete. Except for that $1600 plane ticket you're already in the Ro16 which is a guaranteed $2000 plus a good chance to make much more, whereas that $300 plane ticket guarantees that if you win you get to be in code A and have to pay for living expenses in a foreign country for several weeks. The ferry isn't a viable option either. It costs over $100 USD for a one-way 26 hour trip which neither starts in Beijing nor ends in Seoul. I agree that it's a much better financial opportunity to play in WCS America rather than Korea, I have never stated otherwise. I have stated however that is not "unreasonable" to play on KR, and that it is a conscious choice to play in WCS America vs KR and not forced. And people take the ferry all the time from Beijing to Seoul, I've done it myself. It not as difficult as you make it sound, though it is a long trip. I also am a world traveler. So explain how it's reasonable to expect somebody to live in a foreign country for an extended amount of time in order to compete for a tournament. Also, there is no ferry from Beijing to Seoul. Beijing isn't even on the coast. You've taken a ferry that doesn't even exist, I don't think it's worth responding to you anymore. Must resist urge to make Photoshop movie poster of mythical ferry boat from Beijing to Seoul, carrying world travelers and Chinese SC2 players off to adventure in the land of Korea. A feel good story for the summer, brought you by Dreamworks. Ferry information Beijing - Seoul (yes there is a short train ride from the ports) Air-conditioned high-speed trains link Beijing and Tianjin frequently, taking just 30 minutes, see details here. However, the port is actually at Tanggu, some 50 km east of Tianjin itself, so it's better to take a direct train from Beijing South to Tanggu, journey time 55 minutes, with trains every hour or two. Beijing to Tanggu costs 92 RMB soft seat, 78 RMB hard seat. You can check train times at www.chinatravelguide.com. Bus 102 runs from Tanggu station to the ferry terminal, journey time 50 minutes. Ferries run by Jinchon Ferry sail from Tanggu International Ferry Terminal (50 km east of Tianjin) to Incheon twice a week, taking 25 hours. Departure from Tanggu is at 11:00 on Thursdays & Sundays, arriving Incheon at 14:00 next day. In the other direction, the ferry sails from Incheon at 13:00 on Tuesdays arriving Tanggu 14:00 Wednesdays and at 19:00 on Fridays arriving Tanggu 20:00 Saturdays. For sailing dates and times, see http://byferryfrom2japan.com/en/korea-china or http://visitkorea.or.kr/ena/GK/GK_EN_2_3_2.jsp. The ferry operator's own site (www.jinchon.cn) is only in Chinese or Korean. The ferry fare in economy class is 888 RMB + 60 RMB tax. You should arrive at the ferry terminal 2-3 hours before sailing time. Trains link Incheon and Seoul frequently, 39 km, journey time 58 minutes. It is really hard to tell if you are the world traveler to claim to be, or someone who is utilizing the power of google and just layering on more detailed information as the discussion goes on. Either way, the discussion is about semantics. People say Chinese are forced to compete in the WSC US because they have so few options. You say it is the best decision for them, but they are not forced because they could live in Korea, even though you freely admit it is not the best decision for them. Everyone agrees on the points, but disagrees on the verbiage. No idea why you are attacking/attempting to discredit me personally rather than just addressing the points in a discussion . . . Yes of course I don't have the ferry information memorized, I've only taken it once. I'ts much easier to google this well-known ferry and just copy/paste? I am a U.S. citizen living in Mexico at the moment. I've done quite a bit of travel, but that has almost nothing to do with the discussion . . . I don't think everyone agrees with these points, probably most people arguing here are in agreement, but I've read countless statements since the beginning of WCS regarding the Chinese being forced (yes, they mean forced not *best opportunity*) into this situation and "woe" to them for having such a horrible/difficult time.
You are the one who brought up being a world traveler and claimed that a 26 hour trip was that difficult, as if that information would somehow strengthen your point. I just pointed out that it is a weird thing to make an argument about and does not make you seem more creditable.
And the internet is not a place for nuance or subtle meaning. Arguing over the verbiage as to why the Chinese players picked WCS AM seems like a fruitless argument. Yes, people are getting a little dramatic about the "plight of the Chinese SC2 player" since MLG, but that is pretty standard. But making the argument that they are able compete in Korea is not really going to get you anywhere and only get people to argue with your more. If you want to make the point that the Chinese players may not be as bad off as people are making it out to be, you should approach the discussion from a different angle.
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On May 07 2013 05:50 SCST wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2013 05:43 Waxangel wrote:
you're fucking insane if you think having to compete in Korea in person is not a huuuuuuuuuuuge barrier against chinese participation
fuck, if MLG said you had to play WCS America live in NYC from the qualifiers on up, all USA players west of Pennsylvania would be screaming bloody murder, not to mention everyone else in the fucking hemisphere. I agree it's a big barrier. However, is it truly unreasonable to have a CN team-house in South Korea? Or for CN players to live in team-houses in South Korea? People are stating that it is "impossible" or "so difficult to be nearly impossible" for CN players to play in any WCS other than America. This is obviously not true. Again, if I were a CN player I also would choose to better/more lucrative opportunity. No one is blaming the Chinese.
Wait... now you agree that it is a big barrier? I'm pretty sure you said that it is "not difficult" initially... let's see... ah yes, here (the bolded part was made by you btw, not me):
On May 07 2013 03:41 SCST wrote:
Obviously facts are just not getting through here. There are estimated to be 1 million Chinese immigrants in South Korea. It is not difficult for Chinese players to travel and or live in Seoul to play SC2 in GSL. They choose not to do this because they don't feel confident that they will be able to win prize money with the intense competition. They are choosing to play in the America WCS because the chances of winning prize money (due to a region-lock loophole allowing partial online play) is much higher.
No, the Chinese players were not "locked out" of KR Code S as is being suggested above, they simply didn't bother to compete in GSL (or if they did, they failed to qualify for Code S). Incredible to see how many people are saying/implying that the Chinese players were "forced" to play in WCS America.
Somehow I doubt these same people are going to protest or make excuses for Canadians or South Americans who will be required to travel for offline play when/if WCS follows through with their original intentions to create a true region-lock by requiring everything to be offline.
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On May 07 2013 06:36 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2013 06:18 SCST wrote:On May 07 2013 06:15 Acrofales wrote:On May 07 2013 06:07 SCST wrote:On May 07 2013 05:55 Plansix wrote:On May 07 2013 05:50 SCST wrote:On May 07 2013 05:43 Waxangel wrote:
you're fucking insane if you think having to compete in Korea in person is not a huuuuuuuuuuuge barrier against chinese participation
fuck, if MLG said you had to play WCS America live in NYC from the qualifiers on up, all USA players west of Pennsylvania would be screaming bloody murder, not to mention everyone else in the fucking hemisphere. I agree it's a big barrier. However, is it truly unreasonable to have a CN team-house in South Korea? Or for CN players to live in team-houses in South Korea? People are stating that it is "impossible" or "so difficult to be nearly impossible" for CN players to play in any WCS other than America. This is obviously not true. Again, if I were a CN player I also would choose to better/more lucrative opportunity. No one is blaming the Chinese. All right, this argument has become fluid and amorphous, ever shifting until it can never be proven wrong or fail under the weight of facts and logic. Its sole purpose is to argue for the sake of doing so, while never yielding to the weight its opponents heap on it. I suggest we all move along and leave the argument blob to itself. No, it boils down to a simple argument. 1. Is it reasonable for CN players to play in WCS KR vs WCS America? No.
2. If it is reasonable for CN players to play in KR WCS, why are people whining about the Chinese having lag, etc and overall trying to make them out as victims when they have a choice as to which WCS to play in.
Irrelevant due to 1. End of discussion. I disagree with you, hence the argument. I think it's definitely worse, but not unreasonable for CN players to play in a team-house in the GSL. Either way, I've enjoyed discussing it. You need to understand what people are saying here. Of course it's possible for CN players to go to KR, live there, and try their luck in the GSL, but given that it is extremely costly in comparison to playing in AM, you might as well use the term "forced" to play in AM. Change it for "the offer in AM is ridiculously superior to the one in KR, making the latter completely out of the question", it's the same thing. I mean, sure, I can avoid the nasty subway and buses in my city by sleeping 3 hours at night, waking up at 2 AM and walking to my hospital work in the middle of the night, I'd probably make it on time, but that's pretty unreasonable right? Hence, in order to function correctly, I'm "forced" to use the nasty public transport system, even if in truly objective terms, I actually COULD go walking.
That's a good point, I don't mean to imply that CN players would travel this way every day or weekend, I just meant to arrive at a team-house and stay for some weeks/months doesn't seem unreasonable to me considering the cheaper possibilities of travel.
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BAILS!!! This guy breaking into the scene qualifying over several high level pros. Props to this guy.
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On May 07 2013 06:46 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2013 05:50 SCST wrote:On May 07 2013 05:43 Waxangel wrote:
you're fucking insane if you think having to compete in Korea in person is not a huuuuuuuuuuuge barrier against chinese participation
fuck, if MLG said you had to play WCS America live in NYC from the qualifiers on up, all USA players west of Pennsylvania would be screaming bloody murder, not to mention everyone else in the fucking hemisphere. I agree it's a big barrier. However, is it truly unreasonable to have a CN team-house in South Korea? Or for CN players to live in team-houses in South Korea? People are stating that it is "impossible" or "so difficult to be nearly impossible" for CN players to play in any WCS other than America. This is obviously not true. Again, if I were a CN player I also would choose to better/more lucrative opportunity. No one is blaming the Chinese. Wait... now you agree that it is a big barrier? I'm pretty sure you said that it is "not difficult" initially... let's see... ah yes, here (the bolded part was made by you btw, not me): Show nested quote +On May 07 2013 03:41 SCST wrote:
Obviously facts are just not getting through here. There are estimated to be 1 million Chinese immigrants in South Korea. It is not difficult for Chinese players to travel and or live in Seoul to play SC2 in GSL. They choose not to do this because they don't feel confident that they will be able to win prize money with the intense competition. They are choosing to play in the America WCS because the chances of winning prize money (due to a region-lock loophole allowing partial online play) is much higher.
No, the Chinese players were not "locked out" of KR Code S as is being suggested above, they simply didn't bother to compete in GSL (or if they did, they failed to qualify for Code S). Incredible to see how many people are saying/implying that the Chinese players were "forced" to play in WCS America.
Somehow I doubt these same people are going to protest or make excuses for Canadians or South Americans who will be required to travel for offline play when/if WCS follows through with their original intentions to create a true region-lock by requiring everything to be offline.
Semantics, look at the context of the post and stop trying to knit-pick to score points here. I agreed with Waxangel's point because it was polite and civilized to do so, and followed it immediately with: "However, is it truly unreasonable to have a CN team-house in South Korea? Or for CN players to live in team-houses in South Korea?"
P.S. I still don't think it is that difficult for CN players to join a team-house in Korea. It wouldn't seem to be so much more difficult than other foreigners and even Koreans who move from outside of their locality to participate in the GSL. Sure it's a commitment, but it's no less than what other pro's have and will go through to compete.
Also, the dirty little secret of this entire discussion is that we all know that even if participating in the GSL were made completely free to the Chinese, they would still compete in the WCS America. Lol.
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On May 07 2013 06:39 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2013 06:25 SCST wrote:On May 07 2013 06:21 Plansix wrote:On May 07 2013 06:16 SCST wrote:On May 07 2013 06:11 Plansix wrote:On May 07 2013 06:06 Dracid wrote:On May 07 2013 05:57 SCST wrote:On May 07 2013 05:49 Dracid wrote:On May 07 2013 05:33 SCST wrote:On May 07 2013 05:29 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
My real question is, after the Chinese player takes the reported "ferry" from China to Korea, how does he get to Seoul. Does he walk like a pilgrim, with his mouse, keyboard and B.Net authenticator on his back, for the remained of his 1000 K trip? Does he show up to the GOM studio like some vagabond, reciting builds under his breath and playing SC2 in his mind?
The more I think about it, the more like the concept of this fictional Chinese SC2 player traveling to Seoul by foot. Seems clear that this was taken out of context. It is, relative to other areas of the world like the Americas, very reasonable to travel from China to SK and live in a team-house for several months to compete in GSL. Unless you think as one poster mentioned, $300 plane ticket vs ~$1,600 is similar in cost. Or as an even cheaper option, taking the ferry and train and staying for a while to compete. Except for that $1600 plane ticket you're already in the Ro16 which is a guaranteed $2000 plus a good chance to make much more, whereas that $300 plane ticket guarantees that if you win you get to be in code A and have to pay for living expenses in a foreign country for several weeks. The ferry isn't a viable option either. It costs over $100 USD for a one-way 26 hour trip which neither starts in Beijing nor ends in Seoul. I agree that it's a much better financial opportunity to play in WCS America rather than Korea, I have never stated otherwise. I have stated however that is not "unreasonable" to play on KR, and that it is a conscious choice to play in WCS America vs KR and not forced. And people take the ferry all the time from Beijing to Seoul, I've done it myself. It not as difficult as you make it sound, though it is a long trip. I also am a world traveler. So explain how it's reasonable to expect somebody to live in a foreign country for an extended amount of time in order to compete for a tournament. Also, there is no ferry from Beijing to Seoul. Beijing isn't even on the coast. You've taken a ferry that doesn't even exist, I don't think it's worth responding to you anymore. Must resist urge to make Photoshop movie poster of mythical ferry boat from Beijing to Seoul, carrying world travelers and Chinese SC2 players off to adventure in the land of Korea. A feel good story for the summer, brought you by Dreamworks. Ferry information Beijing - Seoul (yes there is a short train ride from the ports) Air-conditioned high-speed trains link Beijing and Tianjin frequently, taking just 30 minutes, see details here. However, the port is actually at Tanggu, some 50 km east of Tianjin itself, so it's better to take a direct train from Beijing South to Tanggu, journey time 55 minutes, with trains every hour or two. Beijing to Tanggu costs 92 RMB soft seat, 78 RMB hard seat. You can check train times at www.chinatravelguide.com. Bus 102 runs from Tanggu station to the ferry terminal, journey time 50 minutes. Ferries run by Jinchon Ferry sail from Tanggu International Ferry Terminal (50 km east of Tianjin) to Incheon twice a week, taking 25 hours. Departure from Tanggu is at 11:00 on Thursdays & Sundays, arriving Incheon at 14:00 next day. In the other direction, the ferry sails from Incheon at 13:00 on Tuesdays arriving Tanggu 14:00 Wednesdays and at 19:00 on Fridays arriving Tanggu 20:00 Saturdays. For sailing dates and times, see http://byferryfrom2japan.com/en/korea-china or http://visitkorea.or.kr/ena/GK/GK_EN_2_3_2.jsp. The ferry operator's own site (www.jinchon.cn) is only in Chinese or Korean. The ferry fare in economy class is 888 RMB + 60 RMB tax. You should arrive at the ferry terminal 2-3 hours before sailing time. Trains link Incheon and Seoul frequently, 39 km, journey time 58 minutes. It is really hard to tell if you are the world traveler to claim to be, or someone who is utilizing the power of google and just layering on more detailed information as the discussion goes on. Either way, the discussion is about semantics. People say Chinese are forced to compete in the WSC US because they have so few options. You say it is the best decision for them, but they are not forced because they could live in Korea, even though you freely admit it is not the best decision for them. Everyone agrees on the points, but disagrees on the verbiage. No idea why you are attacking/attempting to discredit me personally rather than just addressing the points in a discussion . . . Yes of course I don't have the ferry information memorized, I've only taken it once. I'ts much easier to google this well-known ferry and just copy/paste? I am a U.S. citizen living in Mexico at the moment. I've done quite a bit of travel, but that has almost nothing to do with the discussion . . . I don't think everyone agrees with these points, probably most people arguing here are in agreement, but I've read countless statements since the beginning of WCS regarding the Chinese being forced (yes, they mean forced not *best opportunity*) into this situation and "woe" to them for having such a horrible/difficult time. ... If you want to make the point that the Chinese players may not be as bad off as people are making it out to be, you should approach the discussion from a different angle.
This is probably true.
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On May 07 2013 06:47 SCST wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2013 06:36 mordk wrote:On May 07 2013 06:18 SCST wrote:On May 07 2013 06:15 Acrofales wrote:On May 07 2013 06:07 SCST wrote:On May 07 2013 05:55 Plansix wrote:On May 07 2013 05:50 SCST wrote:On May 07 2013 05:43 Waxangel wrote:
you're fucking insane if you think having to compete in Korea in person is not a huuuuuuuuuuuge barrier against chinese participation
fuck, if MLG said you had to play WCS America live in NYC from the qualifiers on up, all USA players west of Pennsylvania would be screaming bloody murder, not to mention everyone else in the fucking hemisphere. I agree it's a big barrier. However, is it truly unreasonable to have a CN team-house in South Korea? Or for CN players to live in team-houses in South Korea? People are stating that it is "impossible" or "so difficult to be nearly impossible" for CN players to play in any WCS other than America. This is obviously not true. Again, if I were a CN player I also would choose to better/more lucrative opportunity. No one is blaming the Chinese. All right, this argument has become fluid and amorphous, ever shifting until it can never be proven wrong or fail under the weight of facts and logic. Its sole purpose is to argue for the sake of doing so, while never yielding to the weight its opponents heap on it. I suggest we all move along and leave the argument blob to itself. No, it boils down to a simple argument. 1. Is it reasonable for CN players to play in WCS KR vs WCS America? No.
2. If it is reasonable for CN players to play in KR WCS, why are people whining about the Chinese having lag, etc and overall trying to make them out as victims when they have a choice as to which WCS to play in.
Irrelevant due to 1. End of discussion. I disagree with you, hence the argument. I think it's definitely worse, but not unreasonable for CN players to play in a team-house in the GSL. Either way, I've enjoyed discussing it. You need to understand what people are saying here. Of course it's possible for CN players to go to KR, live there, and try their luck in the GSL, but given that it is extremely costly in comparison to playing in AM, you might as well use the term "forced" to play in AM. Change it for "the offer in AM is ridiculously superior to the one in KR, making the latter completely out of the question", it's the same thing. I mean, sure, I can avoid the nasty subway and buses in my city by sleeping 3 hours at night, waking up at 2 AM and walking to my hospital work in the middle of the night, I'd probably make it on time, but that's pretty unreasonable right? Hence, in order to function correctly, I'm "forced" to use the nasty public transport system, even if in truly objective terms, I actually COULD go walking. That's a good point, I don't mean to imply that CN players would travel this way every day or weekend, I just meant to arrive at a team-house and stay for some weeks/months doesn't seem unreasonable to me considering the cheaper possibilities of travel.
What cheaper possibilities of travel? $300 a trip isn't all that "cheap" for an American, much less a Chinese player.
Also, you're shifting goalposts. When the hell did this become about teamhouses?
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On May 07 2013 06:55 Dracid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2013 06:47 SCST wrote:On May 07 2013 06:36 mordk wrote:On May 07 2013 06:18 SCST wrote:On May 07 2013 06:15 Acrofales wrote:On May 07 2013 06:07 SCST wrote:On May 07 2013 05:55 Plansix wrote:On May 07 2013 05:50 SCST wrote:On May 07 2013 05:43 Waxangel wrote:
you're fucking insane if you think having to compete in Korea in person is not a huuuuuuuuuuuge barrier against chinese participation
fuck, if MLG said you had to play WCS America live in NYC from the qualifiers on up, all USA players west of Pennsylvania would be screaming bloody murder, not to mention everyone else in the fucking hemisphere. I agree it's a big barrier. However, is it truly unreasonable to have a CN team-house in South Korea? Or for CN players to live in team-houses in South Korea? People are stating that it is "impossible" or "so difficult to be nearly impossible" for CN players to play in any WCS other than America. This is obviously not true. Again, if I were a CN player I also would choose to better/more lucrative opportunity. No one is blaming the Chinese. All right, this argument has become fluid and amorphous, ever shifting until it can never be proven wrong or fail under the weight of facts and logic. Its sole purpose is to argue for the sake of doing so, while never yielding to the weight its opponents heap on it. I suggest we all move along and leave the argument blob to itself. No, it boils down to a simple argument. 1. Is it reasonable for CN players to play in WCS KR vs WCS America? No.
2. If it is reasonable for CN players to play in KR WCS, why are people whining about the Chinese having lag, etc and overall trying to make them out as victims when they have a choice as to which WCS to play in.
Irrelevant due to 1. End of discussion. I disagree with you, hence the argument. I think it's definitely worse, but not unreasonable for CN players to play in a team-house in the GSL. Either way, I've enjoyed discussing it. You need to understand what people are saying here. Of course it's possible for CN players to go to KR, live there, and try their luck in the GSL, but given that it is extremely costly in comparison to playing in AM, you might as well use the term "forced" to play in AM. Change it for "the offer in AM is ridiculously superior to the one in KR, making the latter completely out of the question", it's the same thing. I mean, sure, I can avoid the nasty subway and buses in my city by sleeping 3 hours at night, waking up at 2 AM and walking to my hospital work in the middle of the night, I'd probably make it on time, but that's pretty unreasonable right? Hence, in order to function correctly, I'm "forced" to use the nasty public transport system, even if in truly objective terms, I actually COULD go walking. That's a good point, I don't mean to imply that CN players would travel this way every day or weekend, I just meant to arrive at a team-house and stay for some weeks/months doesn't seem unreasonable to me considering the cheaper possibilities of travel. What cheaper possibilities of travel? $300 a trip isn't all that "cheap" for an American, much less a Chinese player. Also, you're shifting goalposts. When the hell did this become about teamhouses?
I had no idea it was ever "about" team-houses? If you mean to ask why team-houses came up, because my post became a debate and I was required to express my opinion/thoughts about the difficulty of CN playing in Korea in more detail. Team-houses are going to be part of that conversation.
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On May 07 2013 06:51 SCST wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2013 06:46 JustPassingBy wrote:On May 07 2013 05:50 SCST wrote:On May 07 2013 05:43 Waxangel wrote:
you're fucking insane if you think having to compete in Korea in person is not a huuuuuuuuuuuge barrier against chinese participation
fuck, if MLG said you had to play WCS America live in NYC from the qualifiers on up, all USA players west of Pennsylvania would be screaming bloody murder, not to mention everyone else in the fucking hemisphere. I agree it's a big barrier. However, is it truly unreasonable to have a CN team-house in South Korea? Or for CN players to live in team-houses in South Korea? People are stating that it is "impossible" or "so difficult to be nearly impossible" for CN players to play in any WCS other than America. This is obviously not true. Again, if I were a CN player I also would choose to better/more lucrative opportunity. No one is blaming the Chinese. Wait... now you agree that it is a big barrier? I'm pretty sure you said that it is "not difficult" initially... let's see... ah yes, here (the bolded part was made by you btw, not me): On May 07 2013 03:41 SCST wrote:
Obviously facts are just not getting through here. There are estimated to be 1 million Chinese immigrants in South Korea. It is not difficult for Chinese players to travel and or live in Seoul to play SC2 in GSL. They choose not to do this because they don't feel confident that they will be able to win prize money with the intense competition. They are choosing to play in the America WCS because the chances of winning prize money (due to a region-lock loophole allowing partial online play) is much higher.
No, the Chinese players were not "locked out" of KR Code S as is being suggested above, they simply didn't bother to compete in GSL (or if they did, they failed to qualify for Code S). Incredible to see how many people are saying/implying that the Chinese players were "forced" to play in WCS America.
Somehow I doubt these same people are going to protest or make excuses for Canadians or South Americans who will be required to travel for offline play when/if WCS follows through with their original intentions to create a true region-lock by requiring everything to be offline. Semantics, look at the context of the post and stop trying to knit-pick to score points here. I agreed with Waxangel's point because it was polite and civilized to do so, and followed it immediately with: "However, is it truly unreasonable to have a CN team-house in South Korea? Or for CN players to live in team-houses in South Korea?" P.S. I still don't think it is that difficult for CN players to join a team-house in Korea. It wouldn't seem to be so much more difficult than other foreigners and even Koreans who move from outside of their locality to participate in the GSL. Sure it's a commitment, but it's no less than what other pro's have and will go through to compete. Also, the dirty little secret of this entire discussion is that we all know that even if participating in the GSL were made completely free to the Chinese, they would still compete in the WCS America. Lol.
This is where I accuse you of making xenophobic comments. You're specifically singling out the Chinese for not "participating in WCS KR because it's too hard" when there are ZERO foreigners competing in WCS KR. Major, Scarlett, and others are actually in Korea, it literally is completely free to them to compete in WCS KR. But no, it's the Chinese who are "avoiding" the competition.
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He's saying that Chinese players have been the target of a giant sob story over them being forced to play with lag in WCS NA, which is great for their publicity but has the same false premise that exists for Korean players who chose to play in WCS NA. In both cases, the decision was made because it benefited these players to do so, not because a nefarious force ie Blizzard / MLG / GSL was out to get them.
Of course, there is the small subject of cost - a huge issue for poorly funded eSports ie SC 2 in China - that he is hand waving, but the gist of it does stand - I don't think people are going to prefer WCS Korea over WCS NA even were cost not an issue, simply because it's the fastest track into the money.
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On May 07 2013 07:16 Dracid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2013 06:51 SCST wrote:On May 07 2013 06:46 JustPassingBy wrote:On May 07 2013 05:50 SCST wrote:On May 07 2013 05:43 Waxangel wrote:
you're fucking insane if you think having to compete in Korea in person is not a huuuuuuuuuuuge barrier against chinese participation
fuck, if MLG said you had to play WCS America live in NYC from the qualifiers on up, all USA players west of Pennsylvania would be screaming bloody murder, not to mention everyone else in the fucking hemisphere. I agree it's a big barrier. However, is it truly unreasonable to have a CN team-house in South Korea? Or for CN players to live in team-houses in South Korea? People are stating that it is "impossible" or "so difficult to be nearly impossible" for CN players to play in any WCS other than America. This is obviously not true. Again, if I were a CN player I also would choose to better/more lucrative opportunity. No one is blaming the Chinese. Wait... now you agree that it is a big barrier? I'm pretty sure you said that it is "not difficult" initially... let's see... ah yes, here (the bolded part was made by you btw, not me): On May 07 2013 03:41 SCST wrote:
Obviously facts are just not getting through here. There are estimated to be 1 million Chinese immigrants in South Korea. It is not difficult for Chinese players to travel and or live in Seoul to play SC2 in GSL. They choose not to do this because they don't feel confident that they will be able to win prize money with the intense competition. They are choosing to play in the America WCS because the chances of winning prize money (due to a region-lock loophole allowing partial online play) is much higher.
No, the Chinese players were not "locked out" of KR Code S as is being suggested above, they simply didn't bother to compete in GSL (or if they did, they failed to qualify for Code S). Incredible to see how many people are saying/implying that the Chinese players were "forced" to play in WCS America.
Somehow I doubt these same people are going to protest or make excuses for Canadians or South Americans who will be required to travel for offline play when/if WCS follows through with their original intentions to create a true region-lock by requiring everything to be offline. Semantics, look at the context of the post and stop trying to knit-pick to score points here. I agreed with Waxangel's point because it was polite and civilized to do so, and followed it immediately with: "However, is it truly unreasonable to have a CN team-house in South Korea? Or for CN players to live in team-houses in South Korea?" P.S. I still don't think it is that difficult for CN players to join a team-house in Korea. It wouldn't seem to be so much more difficult than other foreigners and even Koreans who move from outside of their locality to participate in the GSL. Sure it's a commitment, but it's no less than what other pro's have and will go through to compete. Also, the dirty little secret of this entire discussion is that we all know that even if participating in the GSL were made completely free to the Chinese, they would still compete in the WCS America. Lol. This is where I accuse you of making xenophobic comments. You're specifically singling out the Chinese for not "participating in WCS KR because it's too hard" when there are ZERO foreigners competing in WCS KR. Major, Scarlett, and others are actually in Korea, it literally is completely free to them to compete in WCS KR. But no, it's the Chinese who are "avoiding" the competition.
Nah, I think you accuse me of xenophobia because you're too invested in this debate and are trying to slander someone you're debating against. It's pretty common when someone gets too heated in a discussion. The same goes for trying to discredit people on a personal level rather than countering points and keeping to the topic(s) at hand.
It's obvious that I'm not racist, as I have consistently stated that I would do the same as CN/KR players in their position. Also, foreigners have competed in KR since the beginning of GSL. They don't always make it into Code S, but they do compete and try. And the Chinese also compete in KR at times. I remember when Loner competed quite a bit, I was/am a big fan of his.
No need to grasp at straws, if you want to talk/debate and state that I'm wrong it's fine. What you're trying to do here, however, is pretty sad.
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On May 07 2013 07:19 Azarkon wrote:
He's saying that Chinese players have been the subject of a giant sob story over them being forced to play with lag in WCS NA, which is great for their publicity but has the same false premise that exists for Korean players who chose to play in WCS NA. In both cases, the decision was made because it benefited these players to do so, not because a nefarious force ie Blizzard / MLG / GSL was out to get them.
Thank god someone with the clarity of mind to see the truth.
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On May 07 2013 07:23 SCST wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2013 07:16 Dracid wrote:On May 07 2013 06:51 SCST wrote:On May 07 2013 06:46 JustPassingBy wrote:On May 07 2013 05:50 SCST wrote:On May 07 2013 05:43 Waxangel wrote:
you're fucking insane if you think having to compete in Korea in person is not a huuuuuuuuuuuge barrier against chinese participation
fuck, if MLG said you had to play WCS America live in NYC from the qualifiers on up, all USA players west of Pennsylvania would be screaming bloody murder, not to mention everyone else in the fucking hemisphere. I agree it's a big barrier. However, is it truly unreasonable to have a CN team-house in South Korea? Or for CN players to live in team-houses in South Korea? People are stating that it is "impossible" or "so difficult to be nearly impossible" for CN players to play in any WCS other than America. This is obviously not true. Again, if I were a CN player I also would choose to better/more lucrative opportunity. No one is blaming the Chinese. Wait... now you agree that it is a big barrier? I'm pretty sure you said that it is "not difficult" initially... let's see... ah yes, here (the bolded part was made by you btw, not me): On May 07 2013 03:41 SCST wrote:
Obviously facts are just not getting through here. There are estimated to be 1 million Chinese immigrants in South Korea. It is not difficult for Chinese players to travel and or live in Seoul to play SC2 in GSL. They choose not to do this because they don't feel confident that they will be able to win prize money with the intense competition. They are choosing to play in the America WCS because the chances of winning prize money (due to a region-lock loophole allowing partial online play) is much higher.
No, the Chinese players were not "locked out" of KR Code S as is being suggested above, they simply didn't bother to compete in GSL (or if they did, they failed to qualify for Code S). Incredible to see how many people are saying/implying that the Chinese players were "forced" to play in WCS America.
Somehow I doubt these same people are going to protest or make excuses for Canadians or South Americans who will be required to travel for offline play when/if WCS follows through with their original intentions to create a true region-lock by requiring everything to be offline. Semantics, look at the context of the post and stop trying to knit-pick to score points here. I agreed with Waxangel's point because it was polite and civilized to do so, and followed it immediately with: "However, is it truly unreasonable to have a CN team-house in South Korea? Or for CN players to live in team-houses in South Korea?" P.S. I still don't think it is that difficult for CN players to join a team-house in Korea. It wouldn't seem to be so much more difficult than other foreigners and even Koreans who move from outside of their locality to participate in the GSL. Sure it's a commitment, but it's no less than what other pro's have and will go through to compete. Also, the dirty little secret of this entire discussion is that we all know that even if participating in the GSL were made completely free to the Chinese, they would still compete in the WCS America. Lol. This is where I accuse you of making xenophobic comments. You're specifically singling out the Chinese for not "participating in WCS KR because it's too hard" when there are ZERO foreigners competing in WCS KR. Major, Scarlett, and others are actually in Korea, it literally is completely free to them to compete in WCS KR. But no, it's the Chinese who are "avoiding" the competition. Nah, I think you accuse me of xenophobia because you're too invested in this debate and are trying to slander someone you're debating against. It's pretty common when someone gets too heated in a discussion. The same goes for trying to discredit people on a personal level rather than countering points and keeping to the topic(s) at hand. It's obvious that I'm not racist, as I have consistently stated that I would do the same as CN/KR players in their position. Also, foreigners have competed in KR since the beginning of GSL. They don't always make it into Code S, but they do compete and try. And the Chinese also compete in KR at times. I remember when Loner competed quite a bit, I was/am a big fan of his. No need to grasp at straws, if you want to talk/debate and state that I'm wrong it's fine. What you're trying to do here, however, is pretty sad.
DIscredit your points? How about that time you said that it's cheap/easy for Chinese players to go to Korea to compete? You know, since they have a $350 30+ hour ferry to get to Korea and all. Try to do so without bringing up hypothetical teamhouses please.
"Even if travel/living expenses weren't an issue, the Chinese would still opt for WCS NA." Is this really your point? This applies to everybody. Why would you mention this without acknowledging the foreigners who are currently in Korea but choose not to participate in WCS KR? The statement is correct, but it's meaningless.
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On May 07 2013 06:18 SCST wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2013 06:15 Acrofales wrote:On May 07 2013 06:07 SCST wrote:On May 07 2013 05:55 Plansix wrote:On May 07 2013 05:50 SCST wrote:On May 07 2013 05:43 Waxangel wrote:
you're fucking insane if you think having to compete in Korea in person is not a huuuuuuuuuuuge barrier against chinese participation
fuck, if MLG said you had to play WCS America live in NYC from the qualifiers on up, all USA players west of Pennsylvania would be screaming bloody murder, not to mention everyone else in the fucking hemisphere. I agree it's a big barrier. However, is it truly unreasonable to have a CN team-house in South Korea? Or for CN players to live in team-houses in South Korea? People are stating that it is "impossible" or "so difficult to be nearly impossible" for CN players to play in any WCS other than America. This is obviously not true. Again, if I were a CN player I also would choose to better/more lucrative opportunity. No one is blaming the Chinese. All right, this argument has become fluid and amorphous, ever shifting until it can never be proven wrong or fail under the weight of facts and logic. Its sole purpose is to argue for the sake of doing so, while never yielding to the weight its opponents heap on it. I suggest we all move along and leave the argument blob to itself. No, it boils down to a simple argument. 1. Is it reasonable for CN players to play in WCS KR vs WCS America? No.
2. If it is reasonable for CN players to play in KR WCS, why are people whining about the Chinese having lag, etc and overall trying to make them out as victims when they have a choice as to which WCS to play in.
Irrelevant due to 1. End of discussion. I disagree with you, hence the argument. I think it's definitely worse, but not unreasonable for CN players to play in a team-house in the GSL. Either way, I've enjoyed discussing it.
do you even know anything about the relationship between china and korea?
stop talking like it's absolutely np to go and live in korea as a chinese.
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China6331 Posts
I'm literally laughing at the argument about Chinese travelling to Korea to play in GSL, by Americans.
Have you ever considered things like language barrier, training environment, cost to stay abroad?
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On May 07 2013 07:58 digmouse wrote:
I'm literally laughing at the argument about Chinese travelling to Korea to play in GSL, by Americans.
Have you ever considered things like language barrier, training environment, cost to stay abroad?
Didn't you know, he is a world traveler? That means he is qualified to speak on the issues. Really, taking a 26 hour ferry makes you qualified to judge the difficulty of moving to another country to play in the GSL.
P.S. Sarcasm, because the internet is a bad medium.
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EPT
